WEBVTT - Aniconism, Images and the Divine: Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.320 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:14.280 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.520 your Mind. My name is Robert Land, and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:19.560 And today we're picking up with part two of our 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.600 talk about an iconism in the history of art and religion. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.320 An Iconism, as we described in the first episode, is 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:33.960 the demarcation of divine presence without figural representation. Uh. And 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.159 that that was a definition that was given in an 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.319 essay that I talked about in the last episode from 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.040 the Journal Religion in seventeen by the Yale University art 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.159 historian Milette Gaffman. And so in the last episode we 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:48.479 talked about some issues with defining the concept of an iconism, 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.159 and we talked about some specific examples from Greek religion 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.760 and from Hindu religion. And we're back today to keep 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.000 exploring more on the topic. So, but if you if 0:00:58.000 --> 0:00:59.920 you haven't listened to the first episode, you probably really 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:01.880 should go back and check that one out first, because 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:03.480 that lays a lot of the groundwork for what we're 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.199 talking about today. Yeah, and I do want to remind 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:10.000 everybody that that, again, this is a topic where it 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:15.000 ultimately touches on an array of different cultures, different moments 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.319 in time, different places around the world, and it's not 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.760 something where you can really just you know, boil it 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.160 all down to, you know, a universal law or too 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:29.080 concerning like why um an iconism is utilized and you 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.200 know what its values are, what it's you know, the 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.760 pros are, the cons etcetera. It's going to vary from 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.760 culture to culture UM And and likewise, a lot of 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:38.959 our I guess bigger questions about it, like what does 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.560 it do? What? You know? Those two are are going 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.959 to be elusive. You know, you're not gonna really be 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.480 able to come up with like one solid answer UM 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.800 that is going to cover everything. Though in the last 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.200 episode we did talk about some specific studies of anichonism 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.560 that tried to identify some trends that again are probably 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.560 not going to be universal. But for example, one of 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.440 the payers we looked at last time was by a 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.320 scholar named Haberman that looked at a sort of spectrum 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:09.399 of iconicity in the religious significance of trees and stones 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.680 in some Indian rituals. And one of the trends that 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.560 was extrapolated from that at least as Haberman argued was 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:21.720 that it seems, especially devotional religious practices or religious practices 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.920 that put a lot of emphasis on the relationship between 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:29.080 the person and the god tend over time often to 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:34.520 transform originally an iconic images such as just unadorned rocks 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:39.040 and trees as symbols of divine presence into more iconic 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.400 versions of themselves. So you might end up decorating those 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.560 rocks and trees with clothing or with masks that have 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.160 a face on them. Yeah. I particularly like Haberman's ideas 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.680 regarding what happens when you put a face on a god, 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.400 you know, and uh, and he brought up like facial 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.200 recognition and and and and how you know that leaning 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:04.600 into personific patian an anthropomorphism regarding these intangible you know, 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.960 mythic ideas and about how you know. Ultimately it makes 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:13.560 something more uh you know, tangible for your your brain 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.440 to lock onto. So I wanted to start off today 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:21.600 with an example of of an iconic religious representation that 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.519 is sometimes known in the scholarship as divine emptiness. And 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.760 this is held up in contrast to material anchionism, where 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.320 you uh, you know, where where you have an object 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.520 that is the marker of divine presence. But it is 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.560 in itself an object. It might be a large stone 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.680 or a tree, or you know, a big sphere or 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.360 something like that, or a pillar, but it's not it's 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.040 not anthropomorphic, it's not theeomorphic, but it is still a 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:52.520 material object. Is it possible to signal divine presence by 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:56.040 calling attention to an empty space? At least in some 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.400 cases it is? And uh, the first example I want 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.440 to look at is a monument on the small island 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.600 known as Hulky that is spelled sometimes C H A 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.240 l K E, sometimes H l k I. It's a 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.000 small island off the coast of roads in the A, 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.840 G and C. And here I'd like to read from 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.480 that essay by Millet Gateman that I introduced in the 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:22.760 last episode. Quote. In the late nineteenth century, Friedrich Hiller 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.400 von Gertringen visited the slopes of the acropolis of the island, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.119 and as he climbed up the hill, he came across 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:35.400 a boulder with two rock cut seats. Upon close inspection, 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.080 he noticed that each of the two seats was labeled 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.000 with a divinity's name. In the genitive case, the name 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.120 of Zeus appears on the left and that of Hecate 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.599 on the right. And this really got the gears turning 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:51.440 in my brain. That connects to a lot of things, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:53.680 including some things in Christian art that I'll mention in 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.080 a second here. But um, yeah, this is very interesting. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.120 So there are some obvious limitations on what information we 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:05.280 can we can draw from this, like the lack of 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.240 archaeological record from the site, coupled with the lack of 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.359 other evidence, makes it hard to determine whether this monument 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.600 was ever the object of rituals or of worship. You know, 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.320 people stand before it and bow down. But the fact 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.360 that the empty stone thrones are labeled with the names 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.360 of God's seems like at least pretty good evidence that 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.840 this is a type of an iconic monument if we 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.920 go with the index of divine presence definition, because of 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.360 course it in a way notes the potential presence of 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.240 a divine power without showing them in human or an 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.440 animal form. Uh. And this would be an example of 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.680 empty space and iconism because the actual icon you are 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.040 imagining here is the God sitting within the throne, but 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.240 they're not there. It's an empty chair. And this is 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.640 by no means the only example of the empty throne 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.080 is an index of divine presence. This is actually he 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.760 found all throughout different religions of the world. Uh, the 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.600 empty throne of the Buddha, and some Buddhist start rob. 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:08.880 I think you've got some information on that in a minute. 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.480 But they're all kinds of divine furniture. It's sometimes called 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.920 in Greek religion, where this is a thing that the 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.120 God will sit upon or stand upon, a footstool of 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.200 the God, a throne of the God, but the God 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:25.560 isn't in it. And a big example that came to 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.920 my mind is the prepared empty throne from Christian art, 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.960 which is often understood to be waiting in preparation for 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.640 the second coming of Christ, so when Christ comes back, 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.720 he'll sit here. This imagery seems especially common in the 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.720 Eastern Orthodox Church. I was looking up some materials on 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:47.840 this and I found a short book published by the 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:52.240 JP Getty Museum that was by Alfredo Tradigo and translated 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.760 by Steven sarter Relli, and it's writing generally about the 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.760 prepared throne tradition, but with specific attention to one icon 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:03.839 and particular that's known as the heat toy masia, which 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.919 is also a general term that's applied to a lot 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.480 of this artwork. I think it means like prepared throne 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.920 or preparedness, something like that. But this particular icon that 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.920 is being examined in this book is the back half 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.320 of a two sided icon from Athens of the fourteenth 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:25.480 century that's kept in the Byzantine Museum. And there are 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.440 some pretty interesting common features that you find on a 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:32.800 lot of these prepared throne artworks from Christian history. So 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.240 for one thing, Tridigo writes, quote, few individual icons are 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:41.360 devoted to this subject. It is more often inserted into 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:46.720 complex compositions such as The Last Judgment and Sophia the 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.440 Wisdom of God. The image of the preparation of the 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.840 throne or heat toy masia is usually found on the 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.400 backs of icons of other subjects, such as the famous 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.480 icon of the Virgin of Vladimir. The throne being prepared 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.200 is that on which Christ will sit during the Last Judgment, 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.480 lying upon the empty throne or the cloak of Christ 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.680 the judge, and a closed book in the icon on 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.400 this page, however, the book is open to a passage 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.840 in the Gospel quote, come oh, blessed of my father, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.360 for I was hungry, and you gave me food, which 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.280 is a quote from the Gospel of Matthew. Behind the 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.560 throne stands across the lance, and the cane with the 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.880 sponge drenched in vinegar lean against it, while the crown 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.679 of thorns hangs from it. On the fourth step of 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.079 the throne stands a vase with the nails. And so 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.680 you've got a lot of this, uh, this this imagery 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.720 that's charged imagery having to do with the passion narrative 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.280 and Christianity and other visions of the Last Judgment. But 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.120 I also find it interesting that this prepared throne of 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:53.000 the Last Judgment, this empty chair that Christ will sit in, uh, 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:57.200 he says, is often not the center of a religious 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.400 work of art, but it's so maybe somewhere off in 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.440 the corner or on the back side of an icon. 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.000 I'm not quite sure what to make of that, but 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.920 that that seems interesting to me. It um, you know, 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.000 I was thinking it It's like, okay, it's this what 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.359 it sounds like. It has all the an iconic paraphernalia, 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.000 you know. Uh, And in a sense, it almost it 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.200 reminds me a bit of hoarding. It's like a hoarding 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.640 of an iconic symbols. And I mean you think of 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.760 why do people hold onto objects and things because of 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.400 their association with with with times and places and people. 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.400 You know, so perhaps a similar energy going on there. 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.599 And certainly, yeah, if you if you are disinclined to 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:41.959 show a human form or a humanoid form in the art, 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.079 you have all of these additional things to draw from 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.959 places that the individual was, things that interacted with the 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.480 individual's history or the myths concerning them. Yeah, that's right, 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:54.439 but it also highlights of course, you know, one of 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.199 the things we mentioned in the last episode is that 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.719 certainly within the history of Christianity, there is not a 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.560 lot of strict an iconism throughout its history. There's there's 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:08.080 a pretty uh pretty complete blending of iconic and an 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:12.040 iconic traditions throughout the centuries of the Christian Church. But 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.760 part of this idea is that like this is a 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.679 place where Christ is not yet but will be. This 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.319 is a kind that has not occurred yet but will occur. Uh. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.920 So it makes sense that it's unoccupied, that it's unlived in. 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:27.559 It's like you know, it's like like the like the 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.000 airport and the langal ears right. Yeah, yeah, I think 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.520 that's right. So the empty throne here would seem to 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.959 me to take on a special meaning in the Christian 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.280 context versus say, the Greek context, which I'll come back 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.640 to in just a second, because Christianity has elements of 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:46.199 apocalyptic eschatology, which Greek religion usually doesn't. Maybe you could 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.720 find some elements of it, but it's certainly not as prominent. 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.599 So in the Christian context, an empty throne prepared for 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.640 Christ has a special significance, meaning like, our Savior isn't 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.880 here yet, and that's why everything is so bad. Everything 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.400 is messed up in his absence, but he's coming back 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.520 soon and then everything will be made right. So it's 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.680 actually saying something about the world, not just by pointing 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.600 to the figure of Christ, but specifically by being currently empty. 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:19.040 The current temporary absence of the thrones occupant is in 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:24.120 itself theologically meaningful. I was thinking about how the television 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.839 series Game of Thrones leaned in either intentionally or sort 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.640 of accidentally or just through you know, cultural um awareness 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.440 of the trope into this by by promoting at least 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.120 one season of the show with just an image of 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.000 the iron throne unoccupied. Yes, yes, And and the emptiness 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.719 of the throne actually says something about the show like 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.079 that that's very up for grabs. It's not just a 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.280 symbol of the kingship, but a symbol of the sort 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.760 of open potential. Yeah. Yeah, And and if you lean 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.679 into it the right way, the hope that someone will 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.640 set upon it and set things right right. But to 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:00.800 come back to the example I started with the empty 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.920 thrones of Zeus and Hecate. One thing I wanted to 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.079 mention is that it has been argued that the Christian 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:11.839 tradition of empty throne, uh would you say iconography or 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.839 an iconography, uh, is at least to some extent derived 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.120 from the empty throne imagery in Greek religion before it, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.640 which which brings us back to those rock cut thrones 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.120 from the island of hulky Um. So this, this monument 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.000 on the island, raises all kinds of interesting questions about 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:32.720 how people think of God's when they engage in religious practices. Uh. 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.000 Thinking back to the first episode, if that that cone 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.560 of the cult of Aphrodite and Pathos indicates the presence 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.960 of divine power without showing the goddess having a body. 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.320 I guess it is in that case. In the case 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.200 of the cone left ambiguous, whether the worshipers were picturing 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.640 Aphrodite as having a body at all like it, it's 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.720 not clear what they were thinking about, or whether they 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.280 thought of her as something more more abstract, more disembobied, audied, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.560 and so forth. But the empty thrones of Zeus and Hecate, 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.559 they are thrones. Thrones are made for bodies to sit on, 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.000 and they're basically human sized, So you could argue that 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:16.440 these thrones are indications of a figural representation without including 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:20.520 the representation. They do ask you to picture Zeus and 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:25.000 Hecate as essentially bipedal hominids. They indicate that Zeus and 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.040 Hecate have butts, and the butts could sit in those thrones, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.360 but they don't show them to you. The iconicity is 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.199 implied and it happens in your imagination. And I do 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.079 wonder how in general this would this would tend to 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:42.440 change the religious experience. Is this somehow is this closer 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.640 to the experience of the anthropomorphic icon just a straight 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.439 up statue of a god, or is it closer to 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.760 the non figural symbol of divine presence, like the cone 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:57.040 of Aphrodite, or is it something something totally different altogether. Yeah. 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.960 When you start, you know, considering the idea that it's 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.840 that it's that it's telling you this is a place 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:08.960 where the gods have set or will set or can set. 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.280 It raises so many questions about like why I can't 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.760 see them right now? Why am I beholding an empty 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.760 throne now? Is it? Is it tied to some legacy 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.040 of of the like some story about the gods having 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.320 appeared here or having set here in the past and 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.160 therefore thrones were built, or you know, there was a 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.160 you know, you know, hallucinations of the gods occurred here 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.720 and therefore these things were built. Or is it the 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.960 idea that sometimes the gods can be reached and therefore 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.240 this is a place prepared for them, This is a 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.440 place where they can be at home. Yeah, all really 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.720 good questions. And and the one I come back to 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.280 is I wonder if there is any theological significance to 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.640 the current emptiness of the thrones, like you could argue 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.080 there is in the Christian context. You know that Christ 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:53.960 is not on the world right now, so it is 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.920 appointedly currently empty but he will be coming. Is the 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.600 current emptiness of the Zeus and hecateate throwne. It all 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.720 like that, Yeah, And then of course it also probably 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.800 draws in questions about like, well, okay, if this is 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:08.560 a place for the gods, I'm assuming humans are not 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.560 allowed to sit here. Uh. So you know, there's some 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.680 level perhaps of of the forbidden there as well. This 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.000 is a place set aside for the gods, This is 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.040 not a place for humans, right. But of course, even 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.640 though it has been argued that the Christian prepared throwne 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.960 tradition could be derived from the traditions in Greek art 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.320 of you know, furniture for the Greek gods, uh, it's 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.960 clear that this is a motif that appears independently in 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:38.160 other religions as well, like because there are empty thrones 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.680 in Buddhist start work. That's right. There's a great deal 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.880 of Anichonism and early Buddhism so prior to the first 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.960 century CE, which you know might seem surprising, you know, 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:49.520 to to a lot of people, because when you think 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.200 about Buddhism, certainly when I think about Buddhism, one of 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.000 the things I think about are those of those various 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.480 images of the Buddha. You know all these fabulous works 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.880 of art um you know, paintings, and you know, inscriptions 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:06.120 and sculptures and various reproductions of a of a human form. 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.120 But as Susan L. Huntington's pointed out in early Buddhist 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.160 art in the Theory of an Iconism in Art Journal 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.360 in nineteen nine, early images and seem to have avoided 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.200 showing depictions of the historical Buddha or the the or 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:26.560 Buddha Sakyamuni, this is a Siddharta Gattama said to have 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.160 lived fifth to the fourth century BC. So instead of 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.400 depicting that individual or some version of that individual in 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.160 these these early settings, there seem to have been a 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:44.240 strong emphasis instead on showing trees and wheels, um stupas 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.560 and thrones, and those of course can be deeply tied 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.000 into the story of the Buddha as well. For example, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.880 I know, one of the biggest images in in Buddhism, 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.360 other than the Buddha himself embodied, is say the Bodhi tree, 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.360 which it has said that the Buddhist sat underneath, right, 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.760 And that's that's uh, that's definitely connected also to this 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.520 idea of of the throne um, particularly at the diamond 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.840 throne or of Vadrasana, the enlightenment throne of the Buddha. 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.320 And this is um uh. This is an example of 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.240 an actual empty throne, that that is that is still 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.280 still around. You can go and see this. It's located 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:27.680 at at a Maha Bodhi temple at bowd Gaya in India. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.800 So it is a stone slab installed beside the Bodhi tree, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.040 and this is said to be where the Buddha attained 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:40.320 enlightenment in five BC. Now the slab itself is thought 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.480 to have been built by the emperor Asoka around two 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.800 fifty or two two thirty three b C. And the 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.280 tree there, the Bodhi tree, is not the original Bodhi tree, 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.560 but it is said to be an offspring of that tree. Uh. 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.199 And this the current tree is estimated to have been 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.800 planted around two fifty b C, or at least it's 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:01.440 been it's been said to have been planted there, So 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.280 not the original tree, but it's said to be the offspring. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.919 And anyway you look at it, potentially a very old tree. UH. 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:12.080 The sacred fig or Um or Ficus religiosa. Can live 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.520 in estimated nine hundred to fifteen hundred years, and some 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.439 specimens are said to be much older. So even if 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.520 this is you know, this is not the original Bodhi tree, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.280 if it's you know, some descendant of the Bodhi Tree, 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.399 it's still like a really old, really impressive tree. So 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.560 you can look up images of this. But the Diamond 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.919 throne is this essentially this stone platform that is then decorated. Uh. 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.560 Sometimes there is like this um this parasol there as well, 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.520 uh and various other um you know, iconic implements. But 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.120 there is no individual on the throne. There's no statue 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.760 of the Buddha on the throne. And basically, you know, 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:48.719 I mean we have to come back at the end 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.080 of the idea that this is something from a particular 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.400 moment in the story of the boot of the idea 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.480 that they have achieved enlightenment, that ultimately the Buddha has 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.880 um you know, has has has has moved on into 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:05.240 Nirvana and you know, is beyond you know, the limitations 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.960 of the physical form in this life, etcetera. And so 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.560 there's a lot of that in the an iconic aspects 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.240 of the image. Oh that almost seems an inverse of 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.040 the Christian prepared throne, right like if the if the 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.520 empty throne of Jesus is that, well it's empty now, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.639 but he's coming back and he'll sit in it. The 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.920 empty platform here is almost like, well he was here, 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.760 but he left. Yeah, I mean, I guess if I 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.040 was going to to compare it to something in Christianity, 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.400 I would I would think about the empty tomb right 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.280 with the stone rolled aside, you know, the idea of 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.320 being what he is not in here. He's gone on, 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.359 He's moved on to other things, a sign of what 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.399 he transcended right now. The author of this paper, I 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.959 should I should point out Susan L. Huntington's um. They 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.960 argued that such an iconic images in Buddhism are quote, 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.000 not substitutes or symbols for something else, but are important 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.639 emblems of Buddhist devotion in their own right. And and 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.600 they argue that that these are not indicative of an 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.320 quote unquote an iconic period during which there were laws 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.040 or you know, pressure against the icons of the Buddha. Uh. 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:13.760 This was apparently not the predominant interpretation prior to that, 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.440 but I I am to understand it. You know, like 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.560 basically Susan Ol Huntington's was was kind of a well 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.639 dare I say, an iconoclast in uh in bringing around 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.520 this this new understanding. And certainly I think there have 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:29.960 been there's been various um, you know, findings that backed 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:31.439 this up as well. Like it's not like there were 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.680 no images of the Buddha prior to this. Um it 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.240 was you know, it was it was, you know, certainly 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.399 a trend in depicting um the you know, the the 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.800 the story of Buddha and uh and and you know, 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:48.600 various aspects of of of Buddhist belief. Uh. But uh, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:51.000 but again a lot I think it seems to be 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.639 tied more to that story of the Buddha. Again, like 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:55.639 this is a this is a this is an actual 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:57.520 place in the history of the Buddha. This is a 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.399 time in the history of Buddha, and this is what happened. 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.120 So it's not empty as a result of a prohibition 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.000 on depiction of the Buddha, but it's empty as a 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.000 result of a deliberate choice stemming from the story that 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.919 it's based on. I guess it's kind of like if 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:13.160 you go to a museum, say it's a historic house 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.840 or something. They may have, Hey, here's the writing desk 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.879 desk of this individual. Now sometimes they might have a 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.840 wax version of that, you know, like founding Father or whatever, 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.320 setting at the desk, But plenty of times you're not 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:27.920 going to encounter that. It's just going to be here's 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:30.280 the desk where they set. Imagine what that was like, 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:32.920 if you will. So I don't think it's particularly you know, 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.920 like lofty theological concept for us to wrap our heads around, 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.000 because I think if anybody who's gone to a museum 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.520 or historic location has encountered something of this nature, it just, 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.600 you know, is inevitably not as as sacred a story 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:55.240 and sacred a figure. So in looking at these examples 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.240 in particular, a question that really interests me is is 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:03.000 there any difference on average for the mental experience of 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:06.600 a religious adherent of occult with a figural icon like 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.240 a statue of Zeus or something versus an empty space 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.560 icon like these examples of sacred furniture, you know, the 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.080 diamond throne or the empty throne of Zeus and Hecate. 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:18.800 I was trying to see if I could find any 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:23.119 possibly applicable scientific research here. I did find something that 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:25.760 might tell us something interesting, though I want to be 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:28.359 careful not to over interpret. But we'll see if this 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.359 seems at all relevant. So I did find a study 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.879