1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Land, and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: And today we're picking up with part two of our 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: talk about an iconism in the history of art and religion. 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: An Iconism, as we described in the first episode, is 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: the demarcation of divine presence without figural representation. Uh. And 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: that that was a definition that was given in an 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,319 Speaker 1: essay that I talked about in the last episode from 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: the Journal Religion in seventeen by the Yale University art 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: historian Milette Gaffman. And so in the last episode we 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: talked about some issues with defining the concept of an iconism, 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: and we talked about some specific examples from Greek religion 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: and from Hindu religion. And we're back today to keep 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: exploring more on the topic. So, but if you if 16 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: you haven't listened to the first episode, you probably really 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: should go back and check that one out first, because 18 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: that lays a lot of the groundwork for what we're 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: talking about today. Yeah, and I do want to remind 20 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: everybody that that, again, this is a topic where it 21 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: ultimately touches on an array of different cultures, different moments 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: in time, different places around the world, and it's not 23 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: something where you can really just you know, boil it 24 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: all down to, you know, a universal law or too 25 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: concerning like why um an iconism is utilized and you 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: know what its values are, what it's you know, the 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: pros are, the cons etcetera. It's going to vary from 28 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: culture to culture UM And and likewise, a lot of 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: our I guess bigger questions about it, like what does 30 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: it do? What? You know? Those two are are going 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: to be elusive. You know, you're not gonna really be 32 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: able to come up with like one solid answer UM 33 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: that is going to cover everything. Though in the last 34 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: episode we did talk about some specific studies of anichonism 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: that tried to identify some trends that again are probably 36 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: not going to be universal. But for example, one of 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: the payers we looked at last time was by a 38 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: scholar named Haberman that looked at a sort of spectrum 39 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 1: of iconicity in the religious significance of trees and stones 40 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: in some Indian rituals. And one of the trends that 41 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: was extrapolated from that at least as Haberman argued was 42 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: that it seems, especially devotional religious practices or religious practices 43 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: that put a lot of emphasis on the relationship between 44 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: the person and the god tend over time often to 45 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: transform originally an iconic images such as just unadorned rocks 46 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: and trees as symbols of divine presence into more iconic 47 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: versions of themselves. So you might end up decorating those 48 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: rocks and trees with clothing or with masks that have 49 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: a face on them. Yeah. I particularly like Haberman's ideas 50 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: regarding what happens when you put a face on a god, 51 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, and uh, and he brought up like facial 52 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: recognition and and and and how you know that leaning 53 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: into personific patian an anthropomorphism regarding these intangible you know, 54 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: mythic ideas and about how you know. Ultimately it makes 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: something more uh you know, tangible for your your brain 56 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: to lock onto. So I wanted to start off today 57 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: with an example of of an iconic religious representation that 58 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: is sometimes known in the scholarship as divine emptiness. And 59 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: this is held up in contrast to material anchionism, where 60 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: you uh, you know, where where you have an object 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: that is the marker of divine presence. But it is 62 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: in itself an object. It might be a large stone 63 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: or a tree, or you know, a big sphere or 64 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: something like that, or a pillar, but it's not it's 65 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: not anthropomorphic, it's not theeomorphic, but it is still a 66 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: material object. Is it possible to signal divine presence by 67 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: calling attention to an empty space? At least in some 68 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: cases it is? And uh, the first example I want 69 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: to look at is a monument on the small island 70 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: known as Hulky that is spelled sometimes C H A 71 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: l K E, sometimes H l k I. It's a 72 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: small island off the coast of roads in the A, 73 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: G and C. And here I'd like to read from 74 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: that essay by Millet Gateman that I introduced in the 75 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: last episode. Quote. In the late nineteenth century, Friedrich Hiller 76 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: von Gertringen visited the slopes of the acropolis of the island, 77 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,119 Speaker 1: and as he climbed up the hill, he came across 78 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: a boulder with two rock cut seats. Upon close inspection, 79 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: he noticed that each of the two seats was labeled 80 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: with a divinity's name. In the genitive case, the name 81 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: of Zeus appears on the left and that of Hecate 82 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: on the right. And this really got the gears turning 83 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: in my brain. That connects to a lot of things, 84 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: including some things in Christian art that I'll mention in 85 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: a second here. But um, yeah, this is very interesting. 86 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: So there are some obvious limitations on what information we 87 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: can we can draw from this, like the lack of 88 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: archaeological record from the site, coupled with the lack of 89 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: other evidence, makes it hard to determine whether this monument 90 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: was ever the object of rituals or of worship. You know, 91 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: people stand before it and bow down. But the fact 92 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: that the empty stone thrones are labeled with the names 93 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: of God's seems like at least pretty good evidence that 94 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: this is a type of an iconic monument if we 95 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: go with the index of divine presence definition, because of 96 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: course it in a way notes the potential presence of 97 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: a divine power without showing them in human or an 98 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: animal form. Uh. And this would be an example of 99 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: empty space and iconism because the actual icon you are 100 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: imagining here is the God sitting within the throne, but 101 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: they're not there. It's an empty chair. And this is 102 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: by no means the only example of the empty throne 103 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: is an index of divine presence. This is actually he 104 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: found all throughout different religions of the world. Uh, the 105 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: empty throne of the Buddha, and some Buddhist start rob. 106 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: I think you've got some information on that in a minute. 107 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: But they're all kinds of divine furniture. It's sometimes called 108 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: in Greek religion, where this is a thing that the 109 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: God will sit upon or stand upon, a footstool of 110 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: the God, a throne of the God, but the God 111 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: isn't in it. And a big example that came to 112 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: my mind is the prepared empty throne from Christian art, 113 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: which is often understood to be waiting in preparation for 114 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: the second coming of Christ, so when Christ comes back, 115 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: he'll sit here. This imagery seems especially common in the 116 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: Eastern Orthodox Church. I was looking up some materials on 117 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: this and I found a short book published by the 118 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: JP Getty Museum that was by Alfredo Tradigo and translated 119 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: by Steven sarter Relli, and it's writing generally about the 120 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: prepared throne tradition, but with specific attention to one icon 121 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: and particular that's known as the heat toy masia, which 122 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: is also a general term that's applied to a lot 123 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: of this artwork. I think it means like prepared throne 124 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: or preparedness, something like that. But this particular icon that 125 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: is being examined in this book is the back half 126 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: of a two sided icon from Athens of the fourteenth 127 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: century that's kept in the Byzantine Museum. And there are 128 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: some pretty interesting common features that you find on a 129 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: lot of these prepared throne artworks from Christian history. So 130 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: for one thing, Tridigo writes, quote, few individual icons are 131 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: devoted to this subject. It is more often inserted into 132 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: complex compositions such as The Last Judgment and Sophia the 133 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: Wisdom of God. The image of the preparation of the 134 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: throne or heat toy masia is usually found on the 135 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: backs of icons of other subjects, such as the famous 136 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: icon of the Virgin of Vladimir. The throne being prepared 137 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: is that on which Christ will sit during the Last Judgment, 138 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: lying upon the empty throne or the cloak of Christ 139 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: the judge, and a closed book in the icon on 140 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: this page, however, the book is open to a passage 141 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: in the Gospel quote, come oh, blessed of my father, 142 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: for I was hungry, and you gave me food, which 143 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: is a quote from the Gospel of Matthew. Behind the 144 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: throne stands across the lance, and the cane with the 145 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: sponge drenched in vinegar lean against it, while the crown 146 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: of thorns hangs from it. On the fourth step of 147 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: the throne stands a vase with the nails. And so 148 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: you've got a lot of this, uh, this this imagery 149 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: that's charged imagery having to do with the passion narrative 150 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: and Christianity and other visions of the Last Judgment. But 151 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: I also find it interesting that this prepared throne of 152 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: the Last Judgment, this empty chair that Christ will sit in, uh, 153 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: he says, is often not the center of a religious 154 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: work of art, but it's so maybe somewhere off in 155 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: the corner or on the back side of an icon. 156 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure what to make of that, but 157 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: that that seems interesting to me. It um, you know, 158 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: I was thinking it It's like, okay, it's this what 159 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,359 Speaker 1: it sounds like. It has all the an iconic paraphernalia, 160 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: you know. Uh, And in a sense, it almost it 161 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: reminds me a bit of hoarding. It's like a hoarding 162 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: of an iconic symbols. And I mean you think of 163 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: why do people hold onto objects and things because of 164 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: their association with with with times and places and people. 165 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: You know, so perhaps a similar energy going on there. 166 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,599 Speaker 1: And certainly, yeah, if you if you are disinclined to 167 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: show a human form or a humanoid form in the art, 168 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: you have all of these additional things to draw from 169 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 1: places that the individual was, things that interacted with the 170 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: individual's history or the myths concerning them. Yeah, that's right, 171 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: but it also highlights of course, you know, one of 172 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: the things we mentioned in the last episode is that 173 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: certainly within the history of Christianity, there is not a 174 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: lot of strict an iconism throughout its history. There's there's 175 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: a pretty uh pretty complete blending of iconic and an 176 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: iconic traditions throughout the centuries of the Christian Church. But 177 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: part of this idea is that like this is a 178 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: place where Christ is not yet but will be. This 179 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: is a kind that has not occurred yet but will occur. Uh. 180 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: So it makes sense that it's unoccupied, that it's unlived in. 181 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: It's like you know, it's like like the like the 182 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: airport and the langal ears right. Yeah, yeah, I think 183 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: that's right. So the empty throne here would seem to 184 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: me to take on a special meaning in the Christian 185 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: context versus say, the Greek context, which I'll come back 186 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: to in just a second, because Christianity has elements of 187 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: apocalyptic eschatology, which Greek religion usually doesn't. Maybe you could 188 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: find some elements of it, but it's certainly not as prominent. 189 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 1: So in the Christian context, an empty throne prepared for 190 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: Christ has a special significance, meaning like, our Savior isn't 191 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: here yet, and that's why everything is so bad. Everything 192 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: is messed up in his absence, but he's coming back 193 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: soon and then everything will be made right. So it's 194 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: actually saying something about the world, not just by pointing 195 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: to the figure of Christ, but specifically by being currently empty. 196 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: The current temporary absence of the thrones occupant is in 197 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: itself theologically meaningful. I was thinking about how the television 198 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: series Game of Thrones leaned in either intentionally or sort 199 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: of accidentally or just through you know, cultural um awareness 200 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: of the trope into this by by promoting at least 201 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: one season of the show with just an image of 202 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: the iron throne unoccupied. Yes, yes, And and the emptiness 203 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: of the throne actually says something about the show like 204 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: that that's very up for grabs. It's not just a 205 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: symbol of the kingship, but a symbol of the sort 206 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: of open potential. Yeah. Yeah, And and if you lean 207 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: into it the right way, the hope that someone will 208 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: set upon it and set things right right. But to 209 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: come back to the example I started with the empty 210 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: thrones of Zeus and Hecate. One thing I wanted to 211 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: mention is that it has been argued that the Christian 212 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: tradition of empty throne, uh would you say iconography or 213 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: an iconography, uh, is at least to some extent derived 214 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: from the empty throne imagery in Greek religion before it, 215 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: which which brings us back to those rock cut thrones 216 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: from the island of hulky Um. So this, this monument 217 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: on the island, raises all kinds of interesting questions about 218 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: how people think of God's when they engage in religious practices. Uh. 219 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: Thinking back to the first episode, if that that cone 220 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: of the cult of Aphrodite and Pathos indicates the presence 221 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: of divine power without showing the goddess having a body. 222 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: I guess it is in that case. In the case 223 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: of the cone left ambiguous, whether the worshipers were picturing 224 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: Aphrodite as having a body at all like it, it's 225 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: not clear what they were thinking about, or whether they 226 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: thought of her as something more more abstract, more disembobied, audied, 227 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: and so forth. But the empty thrones of Zeus and Hecate, 228 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: they are thrones. Thrones are made for bodies to sit on, 229 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: and they're basically human sized, So you could argue that 230 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: these thrones are indications of a figural representation without including 231 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: the representation. They do ask you to picture Zeus and 232 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: Hecate as essentially bipedal hominids. They indicate that Zeus and 233 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: Hecate have butts, and the butts could sit in those thrones, 234 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: but they don't show them to you. The iconicity is 235 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: implied and it happens in your imagination. And I do 236 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: wonder how in general this would this would tend to 237 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: change the religious experience. Is this somehow is this closer 238 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: to the experience of the anthropomorphic icon just a straight 239 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: up statue of a god, or is it closer to 240 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: the non figural symbol of divine presence, like the cone 241 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: of Aphrodite, or is it something something totally different altogether. Yeah. 242 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: When you start, you know, considering the idea that it's 243 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: that it's that it's telling you this is a place 244 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: where the gods have set or will set or can set. 245 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: It raises so many questions about like why I can't 246 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: see them right now? Why am I beholding an empty 247 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: throne now? Is it? Is it tied to some legacy 248 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: of of the like some story about the gods having 249 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: appeared here or having set here in the past and 250 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: therefore thrones were built, or you know, there was a 251 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, you know, hallucinations of the gods occurred here 252 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: and therefore these things were built. Or is it the 253 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: idea that sometimes the gods can be reached and therefore 254 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: this is a place prepared for them, This is a 255 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: place where they can be at home. Yeah, all really 256 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: good questions. And and the one I come back to 257 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: is I wonder if there is any theological significance to 258 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: the current emptiness of the thrones, like you could argue 259 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: there is in the Christian context. You know that Christ 260 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: is not on the world right now, so it is 261 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: appointedly currently empty but he will be coming. Is the 262 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: current emptiness of the Zeus and hecateate throwne. It all 263 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: like that, Yeah, And then of course it also probably 264 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: draws in questions about like, well, okay, if this is 265 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: a place for the gods, I'm assuming humans are not 266 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: allowed to sit here. Uh. So you know, there's some 267 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: level perhaps of of the forbidden there as well. This 268 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: is a place set aside for the gods, This is 269 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: not a place for humans, right. But of course, even 270 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: though it has been argued that the Christian prepared throwne 271 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: tradition could be derived from the traditions in Greek art 272 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: of you know, furniture for the Greek gods, uh, it's 273 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: clear that this is a motif that appears independently in 274 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: other religions as well, like because there are empty thrones 275 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: in Buddhist start work. That's right. There's a great deal 276 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: of Anichonism and early Buddhism so prior to the first 277 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: century CE, which you know might seem surprising, you know, 278 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: to to a lot of people, because when you think 279 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: about Buddhism, certainly when I think about Buddhism, one of 280 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: the things I think about are those of those various 281 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: images of the Buddha. You know all these fabulous works 282 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: of art um you know, paintings, and you know, inscriptions 283 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: and sculptures and various reproductions of a of a human form. 284 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: But as Susan L. Huntington's pointed out in early Buddhist 285 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: art in the Theory of an Iconism in Art Journal 286 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, early images and seem to have avoided 287 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: showing depictions of the historical Buddha or the the or 288 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: Buddha Sakyamuni, this is a Siddharta Gattama said to have 289 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: lived fifth to the fourth century BC. So instead of 290 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: depicting that individual or some version of that individual in 291 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: these these early settings, there seem to have been a 292 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: strong emphasis instead on showing trees and wheels, um stupas 293 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: and thrones, and those of course can be deeply tied 294 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: into the story of the Buddha as well. For example, 295 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: I know, one of the biggest images in in Buddhism, 296 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: other than the Buddha himself embodied, is say the Bodhi tree, 297 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: which it has said that the Buddhist sat underneath, right, 298 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: And that's that's uh, that's definitely connected also to this 299 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: idea of of the throne um, particularly at the diamond 300 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: throne or of Vadrasana, the enlightenment throne of the Buddha. 301 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: And this is um uh. This is an example of 302 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: an actual empty throne, that that is that is still 303 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: still around. You can go and see this. It's located 304 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: at at a Maha Bodhi temple at bowd Gaya in India. 305 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: So it is a stone slab installed beside the Bodhi tree, 306 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: and this is said to be where the Buddha attained 307 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: enlightenment in five BC. Now the slab itself is thought 308 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: to have been built by the emperor Asoka around two 309 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: fifty or two two thirty three b C. And the 310 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: tree there, the Bodhi tree, is not the original Bodhi tree, 311 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: but it is said to be an offspring of that tree. Uh. 312 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: And this the current tree is estimated to have been 313 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: planted around two fifty b C, or at least it's 314 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: been it's been said to have been planted there, So 315 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: not the original tree, but it's said to be the offspring. 316 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: And anyway you look at it, potentially a very old tree. UH. 317 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: The sacred fig or Um or Ficus religiosa. Can live 318 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: in estimated nine hundred to fifteen hundred years, and some 319 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: specimens are said to be much older. So even if 320 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: this is you know, this is not the original Bodhi tree, 321 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: if it's you know, some descendant of the Bodhi Tree, 322 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: it's still like a really old, really impressive tree. So 323 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: you can look up images of this. But the Diamond 324 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: throne is this essentially this stone platform that is then decorated. Uh. 325 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes there is like this um this parasol there as well, 326 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: uh and various other um you know, iconic implements. But 327 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: there is no individual on the throne. There's no statue 328 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: of the Buddha on the throne. And basically, you know, 329 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 1: I mean we have to come back at the end 330 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: of the idea that this is something from a particular 331 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: moment in the story of the boot of the idea 332 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: that they have achieved enlightenment, that ultimately the Buddha has 333 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: um you know, has has has has moved on into 334 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: Nirvana and you know, is beyond you know, the limitations 335 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: of the physical form in this life, etcetera. And so 336 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of that in the an iconic aspects 337 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: of the image. Oh that almost seems an inverse of 338 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: the Christian prepared throne, right like if the if the 339 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: empty throne of Jesus is that, well it's empty now, 340 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: but he's coming back and he'll sit in it. The 341 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: empty platform here is almost like, well he was here, 342 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: but he left. Yeah, I mean, I guess if I 343 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: was going to to compare it to something in Christianity, 344 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: I would I would think about the empty tomb right 345 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: with the stone rolled aside, you know, the idea of 346 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: being what he is not in here. He's gone on, 347 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: He's moved on to other things, a sign of what 348 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: he transcended right now. The author of this paper, I 349 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: should I should point out Susan L. Huntington's um. They 350 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: argued that such an iconic images in Buddhism are quote, 351 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: not substitutes or symbols for something else, but are important 352 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: emblems of Buddhist devotion in their own right. And and 353 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: they argue that that these are not indicative of an 354 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote an iconic period during which there were laws 355 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: or you know, pressure against the icons of the Buddha. Uh. 356 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: This was apparently not the predominant interpretation prior to that, 357 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: but I I am to understand it. You know, like 358 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: basically Susan Ol Huntington's was was kind of a well 359 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: dare I say, an iconoclast in uh in bringing around 360 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: this this new understanding. And certainly I think there have 361 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: been there's been various um, you know, findings that backed 362 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: this up as well. Like it's not like there were 363 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: no images of the Buddha prior to this. Um it 364 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: was you know, it was it was, you know, certainly 365 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: a trend in depicting um the you know, the the 366 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: the story of Buddha and uh and and you know, 367 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: various aspects of of of Buddhist belief. Uh. But uh, 368 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: but again a lot I think it seems to be 369 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: tied more to that story of the Buddha. Again, like 370 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: this is a this is a this is an actual 371 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: place in the history of the Buddha. This is a 372 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: time in the history of Buddha, and this is what happened. 373 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: So it's not empty as a result of a prohibition 374 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: on depiction of the Buddha, but it's empty as a 375 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: result of a deliberate choice stemming from the story that 376 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: it's based on. I guess it's kind of like if 377 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: you go to a museum, say it's a historic house 378 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: or something. They may have, Hey, here's the writing desk 379 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: desk of this individual. Now sometimes they might have a 380 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: wax version of that, you know, like founding Father or whatever, 381 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: setting at the desk, But plenty of times you're not 382 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: going to encounter that. It's just going to be here's 383 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: the desk where they set. Imagine what that was like, 384 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: if you will. So I don't think it's particularly you know, 385 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: like lofty theological concept for us to wrap our heads around, 386 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: because I think if anybody who's gone to a museum 387 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: or historic location has encountered something of this nature, it just, 388 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, is inevitably not as as sacred a story 389 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: and sacred a figure. So in looking at these examples 390 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: in particular, a question that really interests me is is 391 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: there any difference on average for the mental experience of 392 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: a religious adherent of occult with a figural icon like 393 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: a statue of Zeus or something versus an empty space 394 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: icon like these examples of sacred furniture, you know, the 395 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: diamond throne or the empty throne of Zeus and Hecate. 396 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: I was trying to see if I could find any 397 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: possibly applicable scientific research here. I did find something that 398 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: might tell us something interesting, though I want to be 399 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: careful not to over interpret. But we'll see if this 400 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: seems at all relevant. So I did find a study 401 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: from the Journal of Cognitive Psychology in two thousand eleven 402 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: by William L. Thompson, Yawling Siao, and Stephen M. Koslin 403 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: called Dissociation between visual attention and visual mental imagery. And 404 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: this study addressed the question what is the difference in 405 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: the brain between focused visual attention and mental imagery? In 406 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: other words, what is the actual difference between seeing and imagining? 407 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: And in a way, this paper is responding to some 408 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: some theorists who had said they're actually in many ways 409 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: the same thing. And we've known for a long time 410 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: that there is clearly some overlap between visual perception and 411 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: mental imagery. For example, there are experiments that show that 412 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: they make use of some of the same parts of 413 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: the brain and compete for some of the same resources, 414 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: so that one can potentially be mistaken for the other, 415 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: and they can sometimes interfere with one another. But despite 416 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: this overlap, there are also indications that visual perception and 417 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: visual imagination are not exactly the same thing. There are 418 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: some differences in how they usually function, and the authors 419 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: here are responding to theories that mental imagery might be 420 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: nothing more than a specific form of actual visual perception 421 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: of visual attention specifically, and so the article tried to 422 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: demonstrate that difference and explore one of the ways that 423 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: these two processes are different. So in reading their them 424 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: describing their experimental process, they say, quote in this study, 425 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: we used a size manipulation to demonstrate that imagery and 426 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: attention are distinct processes. We reasoned that if participants are 427 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: asked to perform each function, both imagery and attention, using 428 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: stimuli of two different sizes, large and small, and that 429 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: stimulus size effects two functions differently, than we could conclude 430 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: that imagery and attention are distinct cognitive processes. Our analyzes 431 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: showed that participants performed the imagery task with greater facility 432 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: at large size, whereas attention was performed more easily using 433 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: smaller stimuli. This finding demonstrates that imagery and attention are 434 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: distinct cognitive processes. So the task involved them like trying 435 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: to notice the appearance of small dots within differently sized 436 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: spaces and then uh contract the contrasting test groups. There 437 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: were sometimes those spaces were occupied by a shape where 438 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: they were applying visual attention, and other times those spaces 439 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: were occupied by something on which they were asked to 440 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: project mental imagery. And what they found was that the 441 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: people were better at the attention task, meaning actually looking 442 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: visual perception when they were dealing with a smaller space, 443 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: a smaller square, and they were better at the imagery task, 444 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: the the imagination task when they were dealing with a 445 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: larger square. So I'm not sure this tells us anything 446 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: about empty space anichonism versus direct iconic representation, but it might. 447 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if this this has something to 448 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: do with like feelings of a sort of spatial expansiveness 449 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: in in how you manipulate imagined imagery versus how you 450 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: would actually respond to a physical statue that's right in 451 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: front of you and you're looking at it, focusing your 452 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: actual visual attention on it when you're concentrating on the divine. Yeah, 453 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I think these these findings are really interesting, 454 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel like you could kind of cherry 455 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: pick them and apply them all over the place to 456 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: some of these examples we've looked at, you know, because 457 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: I'm I'm tempted for example to you know, come back 458 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: to what Ekartole said about, you know, find this small 459 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: piece of nature and focus on it, you know, focus 460 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: your attention on this bird or um you know, or 461 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: this uh, this this crystal or whatever. Um. You know. 462 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the you know, the the idea of 463 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: using the Christna stone and focusing on that as opposed 464 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: to the mountain that is also Krishna out of which 465 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: the stone was was harvested, you know. Um, like you 466 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: know both, I can see sort of see the value 467 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: of both, you know, and and sort of the largeness 468 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: of a god or a goddess or the relatability of 469 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: a god or a goddess, the the the you know, 470 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: at what points is it more advantageous or desired to 471 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: feel a sense of of like personal connection and concentration 472 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: regarding a divine figure And other times is it better, 473 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: you know, to have that sort of awe moment like 474 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: just thinking about Buddha imagery, you know, uh is it 475 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: that you know what if it's one You have the 476 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: Buddhas of all sizes, right, you have Buddhis that tiny 477 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: little statues that you carry in your pocket. You have 478 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: Buddhas that are are human side you have Buddhas that 479 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: are carved out of mountains and are like titanic and 480 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: inspiring works to look at. Well, I think about the 481 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: ways that different sizes of the same icon are I 482 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: think supposed to target people different emotions in in believers. 483 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,959 Speaker 1: For example, the tiny crucifix that somebody wears around their 484 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: neck versus the Christ their redeemer statue in Brazil, which 485 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: is gigantic, you know, I think those are supposed to 486 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: create different feelings. One is a feeling of all, you know, 487 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: that that you are small and that God is big 488 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: and uh, and that you can kind of surrender yourself 489 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: to this gigantic, awesome power with the you know, with 490 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: the big statue versus the crucifix that you wear around 491 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: your neck. I often take as a sign of intimacy, 492 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: like closeness with God what sometimes Christians would call the 493 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: personal relationship. That that's probably not a term that that 494 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: everybody who wears a crucifix would use. Yeah, this is 495 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: all interesting, this will be something well well to hear 496 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: from listeners about as well. But but on the subject 497 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: of of mental images and visual images, um I started 498 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: thinking about this question of of you know, again, what's 499 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 1: what's the difference, what how do you compare the two? 500 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: And in looking into this, I I ran across an 501 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: interesting article by David van Drounen and it's titled Pictures 502 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: of Jesus and the Sovereignty of Divine Revelation, published in 503 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: the Confessional Presbyterian in twenty nineteen. So this is like 504 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: a theological journal where like there it's for for people 505 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: within the church discussing church matters. Yeah, but I found 506 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: it pretty relatable though, and what they're talking about here 507 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,239 Speaker 1: because they're not really like diving deep into theology here, 508 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: They're just they're ultimately ultimately asking like, what's what's the 509 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: difference between these two and observing like sort of the 510 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: push and pull of an iconism and iconism um and 511 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: within this tradition all right, pointing out a quote many 512 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: traditional reform discussions of the Second Commandment, again referring to 513 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: the Ten Commandments idea of you know, graving images and 514 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: all have clearly taught that it prohibits forming mental images 515 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: of God as well as representing him artistically, which I 516 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: found really really fascinating because so much of what we've 517 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: been discussing so far, as you know, especially when we 518 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: were talking about the Christian example earlier, the idea that 519 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: if you have a very anichonistic medium with which to 520 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: um engage with, you know, this this stone that does 521 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: not look like a person, then you can kind of 522 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: summon whatever anthropomorphized incarnation of Krishna you want, you know. Uh. 523 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: And so basically, you know, I end up just sort 524 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: of taking the mental image portion of that for granted, Like, 525 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: of course you're going to then imagine Krishna in whichever 526 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: form relates to your your current circumstances or you know, 527 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: or you know what what you are looking for most 528 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: out of your religious life. Likewise, we were talking about 529 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: about God images of God when we're just asked, you know, 530 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: god reaction, what does God look like? And you end 531 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: up picturing the sky God from the Sistine Chapel or 532 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: from Monty Python or whatever. Yeah, and I alluded to 533 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: this in the last episode. But there there's actually tons 534 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: of debate among Jewish scholars about how best to interpret 535 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: the second commandment, you know, thou shalt not make under 536 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: the any grave and images. What exactly does that mean? 537 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: What are the limits of that? I mean, I think 538 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: it's clear from the historical context that one big thing 539 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: was that many of the other tribes of ancient canaan 540 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: Uh they had religious practices that would be centered around 541 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: a central cult icon. So they would have an idol 542 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: that would be a statue of some kind, and their 543 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: worship in some way was was around that or directed 544 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: toward it, And so the banning of idols was in 545 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: in one sense, I think you could interpret that as 546 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: just a way of saying, hey, we're not like any 547 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: of these other religions around us. They've all got idols, 548 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: but we don't. But that's kind of interesting because one 549 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: way that the ban on grave and images has been 550 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: in herported is not just like, don't make idols of 551 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: other gods and worship them, but also don't make idols 552 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: of me, the god who is speaking this commandment to you. 553 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: I do I do not want to be represented in 554 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: a in an animal form, say as a golden calf. Yeah, 555 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: so I was, But I was kind of surprised when 556 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: we reach the level where where some people take it 557 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: in the next phase and say, do not form a 558 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: mental image of the god in question, don't even do 559 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: it in your head. Yeah, which you know, and we'll 560 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: get into the like the major I guess arguments against that, 561 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: but it makes me think again of that this the 562 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: idea of the monty Python God, where if there's nothing 563 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: else to draw on, I'm going to draw on that 564 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: that one image, you know. Um. But but yeah, but 565 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: basically you reach the point in the argument where you 566 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: have to deal with the inevitability of mental images. It's 567 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: just hard to ignore. Um that this is one of 568 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: the points that Van Dronna makes in this is like 569 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: it's just something that happens automatically. It's that that gut 570 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: instinct imagining of the Monty pythe on God again. Uh. 571 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: And so critics of this have argued that if mental 572 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: images are inevitable, well then that means visual images are 573 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: perhaps permissible as well, like people, which I think that 574 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: that I can understand that argument. It's like people are 575 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: going to imagine what Christ looks like, and if we 576 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: don't give them some guidance, then then you know they're 577 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: gonna cling to something or another, you know, which I 578 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: feel like is kind of the case with these images 579 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: of the Dao Christian God, where it's like you didn't 580 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: give me anything to picture, so I'm only going to 581 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: picture the sustained chapel. I'm only going to picture of 582 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert skit or or the Monty Python depiction of 583 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: the Almighty. But then Van Drummond points out that that 584 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: it has gone in the opposite direction as well, people 585 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: saying well, if visual images are not allowed, then we 586 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: cannot have mental images either. Why on earth would we allow? 587 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: Would we wed said? Would we say no visual images? 588 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: If we're going to still let people have mental images? Though, again, 589 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: how do you enforce them? Well, this kind of reminds 590 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: me of some of the teachings of Christ about how 591 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: to obey the Torah, and I think this was something 592 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: that was taught by other rabbis. Well that you have 593 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: heard thou shalt not commit murder, but in fact, if 594 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: you're angry with someone, you've committed murder in your heart. 595 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: So it's like, not only don't do it physically, don't 596 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: even go there mentally, which I think you could. You 597 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: could look at that multiple ways, but one way to 598 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: look at it is that's a sort of like extra 599 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: safety valve. Right, It's like, if you can't even go 600 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: that far, then you're not even going to get close 601 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: to committing a physical murder. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely 602 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: see the connective tissue between those two concepts. Yeah, um, 603 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: which I mean ultimately, I guess this is something that 604 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: you get at in any of these religious traditions. It's 605 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: like there's there's the external world of symbols and imagery 606 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: and literature and and and so forth, but then there 607 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: is there is inevitably the inner experience as well, and um, 608 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: you know the two are connected, but they are also 609 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: these these walls between them and and and at various 610 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: points in history people have really gotten caught up on 611 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: that that inner world, Like how to I mean, ultimately, 612 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: that's where we all are, Like, that's where that's where 613 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: all the main battles are taking place, right, That's where 614 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: you're trying to to enter some sort of meditative state. 615 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: That's where you're trying to obtain peace. So I think 616 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting to note that there have been strong trends 617 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: not just of an iconism, but sometimes of pronounced actual 618 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: anti iconism in all three of the major Abrahamic religions. 619 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: And remember in the first episode we made the distinction there. 620 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: Just because a religion is largely an iconic, say, they 621 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: don't use figural representations of the divine presence doesn't mean 622 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: they're necessarily anti iconic. It wouldn't necessarily imply that they 623 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: think figural representations are bad, though sometimes in some religions 624 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: that the figural representations are prohibited or are preached against. Yeah, 625 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: and in this we we really get into the subject 626 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: of of iconoclasm and iconoclass, which we well we touched 627 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: on already, I believe. But uh, you know, all of 628 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: this is very much tied to the discussion of an iconism. 629 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: Now a lot of you've probably heard various are and 630 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: thinkers referred to broadly as iconoclass. I say, unfortunately, like 631 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,760 Speaker 1: that's the thing that comes to my mind first, instead 632 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: of like examples from Byzantine history. It's more, uh, you know, 633 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: various Rolling Stone headlines. And in fact, I did a 634 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: search for iconoclass on Rolling Stones website. Okay, here just 635 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: a few of the people that come up being described 636 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: as iconoclass or being mentioned in articles where the word 637 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: iconoclass is used. So Anthony Bourdain, Noel Gallagher, Justin Thurreau, Golfer, 638 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: David Ferret, I believe that's Ferret, and I don't know this, Golfer, 639 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: Lady Gaga, Tom Petty Chance, the Rapper, Frank Zappa, Amy Winehouse, 640 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: Iggy Pop York, George Romero, slipnot slip not so just 641 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: just to name of you, now I should say, like 642 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: this is all perfectly fair, because iconoclass has come to 643 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: mean anyone who attacks or breaks down cherished beliefs or institutions. 644 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: You know, someone who says, you might think rock and 645 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: roll is this, but it's actually this. It's often synonymous 646 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: with rebel or contrarian. Maybe yeah, and it's it's you know, 647 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: there's sometimes I think where it's an overstatement an artist contribution, 648 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: but I don't know. It's ultimately all fair in the 649 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: in the game of like rock and roll pr right. 650 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: But more specifically, an iconoclassed is a supporter of the 651 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: eighth and ninth century movements in the Byzantine Church who 652 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: sought to abolish the veneration of icons in other religious imagery. 653 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: But we see iconoclasms in plenty of other religions as well, 654 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: And I think this might be you know, the better 655 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: way to think about an iconism in a way, you know, 656 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: outburst movements and crisis points in uh an iconism that 657 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 1: leave lasting effects on the culture. Um. We can see 658 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: examples of this of iconoclass them in ancient Egypt for instance. Okay, 659 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: so with like the the Akanatan movement, the pushed towards 660 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: something like a monotheism way in in ancient Egypt. Yeah, 661 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: with the Sun disc and and autonism and so forth. 662 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: Um you know, the shift to that and then the 663 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: subsequent return to um Uh to the familiar Egyptian pantheon. 664 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: Both shifts involved iconoclasm. Now, and as far as Islam 665 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: is concerned, first, let's just provide a brief overview of 666 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: the importance of an iconism in Islam as outlined and 667 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: and the Hadith a collection of traditions containing sayings of 668 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: the prophet Muhammad. So my main source on this is 669 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: a really excellent paper Between Cult and Culture bombyan Islamic 670 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: Iconoclasm and the Museum by finnbar Berry Flood of n 671 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: y U, an expert in Islamic art, and it was 672 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: published in The Art Bolton in two thousand and two. 673 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: So Flood points out that the two main arguments against 674 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: figuration in the prescriptive texts are that we should not 675 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,760 Speaker 1: usurp divine creative power and that we should avoid polytheism 676 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: and idolatry, and in both of these flood rights there's 677 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: a strong concern with the materialistic worship found in non 678 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: Islamic traditions at the time. He also points out that 679 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: this was this was also a common move among both 680 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: Christians and Jews as well in considering the religion of others, 681 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,240 Speaker 1: like look to what other faiths are doing and interpret 682 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: it as polytheism. Yes, this reminds me of things I 683 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: remember encountering in in my childhood in Tennessee, where conservative 684 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: Protestants would accuse Catholics of being polytheists. Right, yeah, I 685 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: think that that's very much an example of this sort 686 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: of thing. Now, the general consensus in the Hadith flood 687 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: rights is that one should not depict anything that has 688 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: a shadow. Thus we see this rich artistic history that 689 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: depends instead on abstraction geometry and script coinage for example, 690 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: that depends on script not figures. But here's the really 691 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: important take home them from flood. While Western commentators often 692 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: fall into this trap, you can't look two moments of 693 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: iconoclasm by particular sects or actors, such as the destruction 694 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: of the Buddhas at Bombayan by the Taliban. Uh In 695 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: Afghanistan as evidence of a fixed, sweeping and essential example 696 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: of broad Islamic culture. Instead, we're looking at a great 697 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 1: deal of variation, complexity, and sophistication in the Muslim response 698 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: to images, which entail varying attitudes over time and space. 699 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: Any points out that, you know, there's a lot to 700 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: gain from looking at iconoclastic moments in Islamic history, but 701 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: you can't classify them all under a single rubric for iconoclasm, 702 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: no more than you can do it for Christian iconoclasm 703 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: by looking at these moments, because you do see, uh, 704 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 1: you know, the issues shift around a bit in Islamic history. 705 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: So Flood points out that um the the the Umiad 706 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: Caliphate established an enduring precedent for an iconic coins in 707 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: six but quote even after this date, however, variations and 708 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 1: attitudes to figuration existed. For some later Islamic rulers issued 709 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: coins bearing figural imagery. He also points out that you 710 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: find Islamic palaces that were lavishly decorated with sculpture and 711 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: paintings that had anthropomorphic elements that were in stark craft 712 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: contrast to religious architecture of the same period. So, especially 713 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: during the seventh century, you would find this divide between 714 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: the way secular and religious buildings were designed and decorated. Okay, 715 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: so there could also be a distinction there between religious 716 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: art and UH and secular art within Islamic cultures, right, 717 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: and of for instance, just in the secular arts. He 718 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: mentions that anthropomorphic and zoom morphic images proliferated in that 719 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: realm again, the secular world outside of the religious sphere, 720 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: and that ultimately attitudes quote carried from individual to individual 721 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: and could change over time or with the advent of 722 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: political regimes with different cultural values. And that's one of 723 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: those statements that I think it may seem like an 724 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 1: overstatement of the obvious, but oftentimes outside of the Islamic world, 725 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: it's it's it's easy to just like look at it 726 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: as a monolith and not not you know, acknowledge that 727 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: that reality. Now this, uh, this gets interesting as well. 728 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: There were sometimes workarounds, such as the re contextualization of 729 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: the particular text or work or decapitation UH an item 730 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: or work, be it two D or three D, no 731 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: distinction was apparently made, it might remain on, you know, untarnished, unaltered, undestroyed. 732 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: If context showed that it wasn't being venerated, or if 733 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: you removed the head or the face from the work, 734 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 1: thus making it inanimate and devoid of a soul, Flood 735 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: rights and uh and this is interesting because you know, 736 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: I think outside observers, they might tend to just you 737 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: immediately think of like, okay, the decapitation or the defacement 738 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: as like a severe example of iconic class them. But 739 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: it's Flood points out there actually quote a type of 740 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: instrumental iconoclasm, as it permitted the rest of the work 741 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: to survive in an altered form. It's ultimately a creative strategy. 742 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: So if you have a say you have an illuminated text, uh, 743 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, with the illustrations and the text is is value, 744 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: it's valuable knowledge. Do you destroy the whole text or 745 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: do you you know, you rip out the pages that 746 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: have illustrations, or do you just deface the images? And 747 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: therefore the the majority of the text remains, but it 748 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: has been brought, uh, you know, into um into the 749 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: room where it's going to be accepted by those that 750 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: would be critical of its use of imagery. So you 751 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: you get into you know, these various scenarios when you 752 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 1: get outside, you know, increasingly outside of the religious world 753 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: and you get more into the secular world. But avoidance 754 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: of divine images in Islam, flood Rights was pretty much universal. 755 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: And I've got I've got one more quote I want 756 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: to read from Flood here. Quote. There is no evidence 757 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: to suggest that the divine image was represented in the 758 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: Islamic world, despite occasional tendencies towards anthropomorphism. But in the 759 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: Eastern Islamic world, depictions of the prophet Muhammad survived from 760 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: the thirteenth century on. In later paintings, the prophet is 761 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: sometimes but not always, portrayed with his face veiled or 762 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: otherwise obscured. This reticence about the face finds a counterpart 763 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,240 Speaker 1: in the activities of medieval iconoclass in the Islamic world. Okay, 764 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: so that would go along with the the depictions of 765 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: secular artwork that we were talking about to say, if you, um, 766 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: the artist might think that if you obscure the face 767 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: of the prophet, you're not inviting anyone to view him 768 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: as divine. Yes. But but I again, I think it's 769 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: important to drive home that in this example, really all 770 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: the examples we've been discussing here is that it's more 771 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: a story of different um movements of an iconism, uh, 772 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: you know, outbursts of an iconism and uh in the 773 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: ebb and flow across. You know, the centuries are longer 774 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: than you know. I've been having a thought as we've 775 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: been looking at a lot of these examples about a 776 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: general trend of a common back and forth. I wonder 777 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,879 Speaker 1: to what extent this is true that I also want 778 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: to be careful not to just like gut feel my 779 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: way into problem, you know, over generalizations. But I kind 780 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: of wonder if there is often in religion a general 781 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: trend toward more iconic artistic representations of religious uh subjects, 782 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: as there is increased emphasis on familiarity and relationship in 783 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: in the religious practice, you know, the familiarity between the 784 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: God and the worshiper. And then there's a backlash that 785 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: goes against iconism when there's sort of a return to 786 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 1: purity movement that emphasizes something less individual, less relational, and 787 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: more more abstract. Yeah, yeah, I can see where that 788 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: could certainly be a part of it. I mean there's 789 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,439 Speaker 1: also a frequent trend is like what you make these 790 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: these images out of? You know, you're making them in 791 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: their fine works of art, their their material possessions. So 792 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: I feel like there's the material uh, and the and 793 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,959 Speaker 1: the rebellion against the material world that it takes place 794 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: in all of this as well, again across various cultures. Now, 795 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: almost everything we've talked about so far has been in 796 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: the context of religion, but of course some of these 797 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: same ideas about iconic representation versus an iconism could be 798 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: applied outside the context of religion. Yeah, I was thinking, 799 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: for instance, about the Muppet Babies. Um, you remember you 800 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: ever watched the Muppet Babies? Joe? Oh, yeah, I did? 801 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: I remember? Yeah, Well you remember we never saw the 802 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: nanny's face. Right, Oh, that's interesting. I mean we did 803 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: see legs. Does that count? I guess that's part of 804 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: the spectrum. Right, we talked about the spectrum in the 805 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: last episode that just seeing the legs and the sneakers 806 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,720 Speaker 1: and the and the striped socks does seem less figural 807 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: than showing the whole body. Yeah. She she's kind of 808 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: the goddess of the Muppet Babies and we we never 809 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: see her face. What does it mean is is she 810 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: is she like a god? Can we not imagine what 811 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,800 Speaker 1: her face is? Can they not see her face because 812 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: they have uh, you know, their their vision is not 813 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,919 Speaker 1: good enough because she's pretty tall. But but this also 814 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: made me think of various franchises where there are particular 815 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 1: types of franchises, like the Star Wars sort of franchise 816 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: where it's it's been created, it's been you know, embellished 817 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: and built upon, and then you end up with a 818 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,399 Speaker 1: certain set of guidelines, usually internal guidelines, for what can 819 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: and cannot be done within this fictional universe. Like the 820 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: main example that comes to mind is they like the 821 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: longstanding mandate that you're not supposed to give a name 822 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: to the species of Yoda. You know that Yoda Yoda's Yoda, 823 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,800 Speaker 1: and you just can't talk about like what he is 824 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: or where it comes from. And a large part of 825 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: that is like you want some sort of mystery in 826 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: your expansive world. If you don't have mysterious gaps in it, 827 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: it will all feel too small. I am. I just 828 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: feel or that somebody has broken that rule at some point. 829 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: There's got to be like an expanded universe novel that 830 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 1: said what species Yoda was? They went to the Yota planet? 831 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: Am I wrong? I mean it's possible, I would I 832 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: would like to hear more about it, if that's the case. 833 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: But I feel like it was. It was pretty strongly 834 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: enforced or at least honored by people who were playing 835 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: in the Lucas sandbox. But but it but it made 836 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: me wonder, Okay, well what about you know, what else 837 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: is there, say, within the Star Wars world. Well, I 838 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: guess there's obviously there's the Clone Wars. Uh. When you know, 839 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: after the first trilogy came out, Lucas knew that he 840 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: wanted to do something with the Clone Wars eventually, so 841 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: there was a prohibition against prequel matters because he knew 842 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: he wanted to do his own prequel. Um. But but 843 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: I made me think about um visual depictions like it, 844 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,279 Speaker 1: And again this would largely be a matter of like 845 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,240 Speaker 1: internal um uh, you know mandates and you know, internal 846 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 1: statements about what can and cannot be depicted. But I 847 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: wonder if there are any you know, largish fictional universes 848 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: where there is some sort of prohibition against visualizing certain 849 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: characters or entities. The only example, possible example that came 850 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:14,719 Speaker 1: to mind. I was thinking about this, and again I 851 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: have no access to internal documents. So is it all 852 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,400 Speaker 1: just meet guessing. But I know, in the The Warhammer 853 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: forty thousand universe, I don't think you ever see depictions 854 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,080 Speaker 1: of the chaos gods that are you know, the you 855 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: know that are trying to bring about the ruination of 856 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,800 Speaker 1: the galaxy. And I wonder how much of that is 857 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 1: there being a mandate that says, hey, you shouldn't actually 858 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,320 Speaker 1: illustrate what these things look like, or is it just 859 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,320 Speaker 1: simply a matter of like professional artists working within that 860 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: realm and being inspired by by you know, you know, 861 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: a legacy of artists working in the weird and the 862 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,320 Speaker 1: dark if they just instinctively know that. Okay, if you 863 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,720 Speaker 1: have some sort of dark elder god, if you actually 864 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,239 Speaker 1: draw it, you will diminish it in some fashion, and 865 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: it needs to be this sort of big, scary concept 866 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,720 Speaker 1: as opposed to something that fits on a single page. 867 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: I've got one. What's that? Never see Dr Claw? Do you? 868 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 1: You never see his face? Just the glove. Not in 869 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,520 Speaker 1: the the the actual series. I mean, I'm sure they 870 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: broke this rule into the the live action films, but yeah, 871 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: in the old cartoon he was he was. Yeah, you 872 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,480 Speaker 1: never saw his face, just that clawed high hand, and 873 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: you saw his cat right right. Though apparently at some 874 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: point there was an action figure, because ultimately the purpose 875 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: of every cartoon is to sell toys, and so you've 876 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,359 Speaker 1: got to have action figures. And what would have been 877 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: great is if the action figure had just been an 878 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,839 Speaker 1: optical illusion. It's like a chair with an arm from 879 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,839 Speaker 1: no matter what angle you look at it. I would 880 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,239 Speaker 1: have given them credit on that. But no, there is 881 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,920 Speaker 1: an action figure. That's just he's plastic. He's just got 882 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: gray hair, and he looks angry and he's wearing on 883 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,800 Speaker 1: my black jacket. Can you look this up and find it? 884 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: I will look it up. But while I'm looking it up, 885 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: I think you've really touched upon You've basically answered the question. 886 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: Like all these things I've mentioned, Star Wars, Warhammer, even 887 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: Muppet Babies, I guess you know, these are all about 888 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: creating icons, mass producing icons and selling them, uh to children, 889 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,640 Speaker 1: you know. So if there's an iconism within Star Wars, 890 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: that's to its detriment, because that's one less thing that 891 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: you can make into a figure and then start somebody. 892 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:17,839 Speaker 1: But I gotta have you look at up, Rob, put 893 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 1: this put this stuff in your head. Oh now, the 894 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: first thing that comes up is is the toy, but 895 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,719 Speaker 1: its face is obscured, So I mean as part of 896 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 1: the packaging, like the original packaging, you would have to 897 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,520 Speaker 1: buy him to see what his face looked like. Oh 898 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: that's a good gimmick. But I still don't find another image. Okay, 899 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: here it is now I see it. Uh yeah, that's 900 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 1: not Dr Claw. That doesn't that's not him. Why does 901 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: he have such big teeth he has like he's gritting 902 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: his teeth and his mouth is opened, like his lips 903 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 1: are open very wide, but his teeth are clenched together. Yeah, 904 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: that's that's Dr Claw. What does his hair look like? What? 905 00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: Who else has that three spiked hair? Is that like 906 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 1: go coup hair? I'm looking at kind of a thumbnail 907 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 1: of it, But I get strong, I get strong David 908 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,600 Speaker 1: Lynch and David Cronenberg vibes, you know that like kind 909 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: of kind of white, impressive hair that kind of sticks up. 910 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: But still he looks angrier than either of those two individuals. 911 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:18,759 Speaker 1: So I don't really don't know what to make of this. 912 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: This Doctor Claw here. Also huge belt, a gigantic belt 913 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 1: buckle that's as big as his face. Oh, not quite 914 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,680 Speaker 1: as big, but it's it's a that's a big buckle. 915 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,800 Speaker 1: Did we ever see what Cobra Commander looked like on 916 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: the old G I. Joe cartoons? Seems like that might 917 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,080 Speaker 1: have been been another area where you were not permitted 918 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: to see, like what was under the mask. You just 919 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,480 Speaker 1: had to imagine it. Oh, well, this actually does kind 920 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,319 Speaker 1: of this connects to an area that I know, you know, well, 921 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if masked characters in the desire to keep 922 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: the mask on. Obviously they're still anthropomorphic because they're in 923 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: their bodies. I mean, they're pretty much fully embodied. But 924 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: the hiding of the face does in a way seem 925 00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: maybe lightly analogous to a type of light and I 926 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,120 Speaker 1: can is um you know, it's obscuring one of the 927 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: most important parts of the human figure. Yeah. So if 928 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,839 Speaker 1: you can never see cover Commander's face, like you can 929 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: never um like see him as a full human, you know, 930 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 1: like he's always going to retain a certain mystique and 931 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,759 Speaker 1: in humanity. Yeah. So anyway, that that's all I have, 932 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: not not really much in the way of answers on 933 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:22,320 Speaker 1: that on all of that, but just sort of questions, 934 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 1: um and and I guess that kind of that's kind 935 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: of the truth unnel on. Pretty much every example of 936 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,800 Speaker 1: an echonism that we've discussed here is like it ultimately 937 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: raises more questions than we have real answers too, and 938 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,319 Speaker 1: just kind of makes you think and ponder, Like our 939 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 1: relationship with images. Yeah, this is one where Uh, I've 940 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 1: really enjoyed this pair of episodes. You got into a 941 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: lot of interesting history and religious art and stuff. But 942 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 1: I do feel like I've kind of failed. I failed 943 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 1: to find like a good a good way to frame 944 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,920 Speaker 1: this in a psychological or neuroscientific theory. Um. So I 945 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,320 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe maybe listeners could help us out with that. 946 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,880 Speaker 1: What does this bring to mind for you in in 947 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,680 Speaker 1: those worlds? Yeah, we're a bit like Brother William at 948 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: the end of the Name of the Rose, where we 949 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,399 Speaker 1: feel like that, you know that these ladders that we've 950 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: built and used and inherited have failed us in arriving 951 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: at the truth. We haven't when the library is burned, um, 952 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: and we just have to walk away from it. Well, 953 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 1: let's not die wedged in that secret passageway. No, no, 954 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 1: all right? Uh yeah, So once again we'd love to 955 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: hear from everybody out there your thoughts on you know, 956 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:35,360 Speaker 1: especially any kind of um an chonism that you have 957 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,480 Speaker 1: grown up in or you know, have a cultural connection to. 958 00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you on that. Certainly, anything 959 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,080 Speaker 1: in the art world is fair a game, right in 960 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: let us know. In the meantime, if you want to 961 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,160 Speaker 1: listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 962 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,200 Speaker 1: you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and 963 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. We just asked the you rate, 964 00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,400 Speaker 1: review and subscribe huge things. As always to our excellent 965 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,440 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 966 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,680 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 967 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 968 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,920 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 969 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: at stuff to blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 970 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 971 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 972 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows.