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Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well

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Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The

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Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,

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Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's

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Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's

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Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,

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Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted

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Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders

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Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled

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Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the

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Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela

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Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh,

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Previously on The Burden.

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Speaker 3: The cigar was given to me by a legendary detective

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Speaker 3: of the Brooklyn North Homicide Squad. Lewis had been the

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Speaker 3: detective on the first two murder cases. The defendant was

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Speaker 3: a dealer named Robert Hill.

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Speaker 4: I was talking to Robert Hill, said, Scarcella's the officer.

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Speaker 2: In your case and He's like, yeah, I said, that's

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Speaker 2: the same officer in my case.

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Speaker 3: He was known to use the same witness over and

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Speaker 3: over again, a woman named Teresa Gomez.

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Speaker 5: This may sound funny coming from me. Where do you

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Speaker 5: get a witness who sees five murders? Eight murders? Teresa

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Speaker 5: Gomez is a motion picture extravagance or in her a story.

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Speaker 5: Her story is unbelievable and I believed every word she said.

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Speaker 1: Detective Scarcella and Teresa Gomez his favorite witness. They had

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Speaker 1: a partnership, a special partnership. Theresa was his secret weapon,

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Speaker 1: a key to solving some of Brooklyn's toughest cold cases

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Speaker 1: when no leads could be found. And solving tough cases,

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Speaker 1: that's what everyone wanted. Bad guys go to prison the end.

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Speaker 2: The actual innocence team was trying to prove Scarcella was corrupt,

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Speaker 2: and for them, Theresa was key evidence. Louis and Teresa

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Speaker 2: go way back one night in the mid eighties. Louise

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Speaker 2: at a row house in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. It's a

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Speaker 2: worn brick building, nondescript except for one detail. There's a

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Speaker 2: dead body in the yard. Louis starts looking for witnesses.

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Speaker 5: I go into the house, which is a crack house.

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Speaker 5: I go on the third floor and I always have

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Speaker 5: my gun. I always carry two guns. I kicked the

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Speaker 5: door open and Teresa Gum is in bed with this

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Speaker 5: on and she looks up and she says, who the

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Speaker 5: fuck you are? Gun smoke? Was had a cigar and

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Speaker 5: out my gun at and I says, bitch, get out

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Speaker 5: of bed. Dijon Amos shit his pants.

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Speaker 4: Right then and there. I felt something. I just felt

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Speaker 4: something about her.

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Speaker 5: You know, who the fuck are you? Gun smoke? It

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Speaker 5: started there. I just felt a spark of something.

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Speaker 2: That spark would lead Louis from a crack house to

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Speaker 2: the courtroom to a damning article on the front page

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Speaker 2: of the New York Times. Teresa Gomez would become the

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Speaker 2: star witness in half a dozen murder cases, all of

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Speaker 2: them Louise. The fates of those on trial hinged on

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Speaker 2: whether a jury believed her. So would Louise reputation, They

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Speaker 2: could go fuck themselves.

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Speaker 4: I did nothing wrong.

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Speaker 6: I'm a sinner baby, I'm all a poll you need now,

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Speaker 6: I'm out of the bottom. I'm gonna set you free.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the burden. I'm Dax deviln Ross.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Seve Fishman. In this episode this crazy World of.

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Speaker 7: Murder, they all knew about Teresa Teresa Goldman ter Teresa Gomez.

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Speaker 5: The witness in these two cases was a crack addict

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Speaker 5: named Teresa Gomez.

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Speaker 3: There was no way that this woman had witnessed all

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Speaker 3: those murders.

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Speaker 1: Scarcella used her as a witness in six separate murder cases.

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Speaker 2: As far as the crackheads seeing six homicides, that would

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Speaker 2: be surprising.

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Speaker 7: She was in either the wrong place at the wrong

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Speaker 7: time or the right place at the right time on

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Speaker 7: multiple occasions.

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Speaker 5: Teresa Gomez, the woman that has been the center of

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Speaker 5: my life for the last nine and a half years.

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Speaker 8: You gotta hold all the time.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So back at the crackhouse, gun smoke aka Louis

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Speaker 2: Garcela bust through the bedroom door into an awkward situation.

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Speaker 1: Then Louis brings Teresa to the precinct for questioning. He

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Speaker 1: cleans her up, buys there some food and cigarettes, and

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Speaker 1: they talk.

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Speaker 5: I have the gift of gab, as you probably nobody now.

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Speaker 1: So you're sitting in this room, I'm schmoozing hard of

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Speaker 1: six hours, may maybe even longer.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it's just what a detective does.

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Speaker 4: We start talking about murders in the precinct.

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Speaker 1: Theresa didn't have anything to say about the body in

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Speaker 1: the yard, but she does start telling Scarcella about other murders,

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Speaker 1: cold cases with no promising leads.

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Speaker 5: And I'm saying, wait a minute, Teresa, you were there,

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Speaker 5: and she says yeah.

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Speaker 4: And I'm saying, what about this? And oh what that

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Speaker 4: was this one? And that was this guy?

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Speaker 2: And so Louis had stumbled into a detective's dream, a

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Speaker 2: witness who seems to be everywhere and to see everything.

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Speaker 5: It's surprise, happiness, a little nervousness, little butterflies in your

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Speaker 5: stomach because when you getting a witness that knows what

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Speaker 5: they're saying. And yeah, it was it was really a

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Speaker 5: good feeling.

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Speaker 1: It was like fucking triumph over and over again. Teresa

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Speaker 1: became Scarcella's go to witness. On another night, he had

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Speaker 1: another dead body in the yard and no leads.

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Speaker 5: All of a sudden, I look at where I am

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Speaker 5: and I say, oh my god, Teresa lives in the

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Speaker 5: white house.

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Speaker 4: Around the corner. She lives in that house.

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Speaker 5: Go around the corner. I pressed the button on the

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Speaker 5: belt I still hear it. M she comes down, she

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Speaker 5: looks at me, she goes gun smoke. He killed my baby,

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Speaker 5: and she named the murderer who Louis arrested. Louis and

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Speaker 5: Teresa fell into a routine. I used to meet Teresa

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Speaker 5: Gomez in front of Saint Teresa's church and I would

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Speaker 5: just see her in the street and give it a

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Speaker 5: high sign, just to make sure she was alright. I

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Speaker 5: give it twenty dollars and we just talk and whatnot,

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Speaker 5: getting ready for the next case.

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Speaker 1: Or just talk, you know, about their favorite topic, murder.

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Speaker 5: Mostly small talk. This fucking guy's no good. This guy's

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Speaker 5: no good. Pocho did this murder with Troy and I.

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Speaker 5: I remember Pocho. We were looking for Pocho and Poacho.

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Speaker 5: She yeah, fucking Pocho.

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Speaker 1: Like any relationship, theirs had ups and downs. Sometimes Louis

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Speaker 1: would threaten to lock Theresa up for doing crack, just joking.

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Speaker 4: Of course, we had a relationship. I knew her. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: you tell me to go fuck myself, what would prompt

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Speaker 4: her to do that? And I tell how to go

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Speaker 4: fuck herself.

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Speaker 1: She did have a sense of humor. Yeah, she was brave.

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Speaker 4: Did she know she was brave. I don't think she

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Speaker 4: gave a fuck, but.

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Speaker 2: She gave enough of a fuck about her friend Louie

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Speaker 2: to risk her life for him. As they say, snitches

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Speaker 2: get stitches. And she participated in six different trials, all

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Speaker 2: Louise cases, according to the official count. And I've said

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Speaker 2: it once and I'll say it again. Who sees six murders?

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Speaker 7: What's so shocking that she might witness multiple incidents?

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Speaker 1: Joe Ponzi was the chief investigator for the Brooklyn District

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Speaker 1: Attorney back then.

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Speaker 4: He worked closely with Louis.

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Speaker 7: She was moving from Crack then to Crack, then in

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Speaker 7: a concentrated area in the seven to seven precinct at

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Speaker 7: that time where violence was happening everywhere. So when people

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Speaker 7: scoff at the notion that a woman could have witnessed

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Speaker 7: multiple incidents, they have no concept of what it was

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Speaker 7: like back then.

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Speaker 1: The square mile where Teresa lived and operated was in

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Speaker 1: Scarcella's territory, and that time, the nineteen eighties, there was

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Speaker 1: an obscene number of murders in that square mile, like

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Speaker 1: one hundred per year, So one person could see a

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Speaker 1: lot of homicides, especially since those murders were clustered within

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Speaker 1: a few blocks of where Teresa stayed.

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Speaker 2: But let's look at it another way. For Scarcelam, having

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Speaker 2: this witness who over and over again will help him

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Speaker 2: close cases that had to be great for his career.

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Speaker 2: Let's just look at the record. Within a few years

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Speaker 2: of meeting Teresa Gomez, he was promoted to the elite

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Speaker 2: Brooklyn North Homicide. He went from a lowly third grade

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Speaker 2: to a first grade detective, the highest level detective can achieve.

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Speaker 5: I was very happy because I was a third grade

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Speaker 5: for a number of years, and I did think that this.

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Speaker 4: Would help my career. I'd lie to you.

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Speaker 5: Look, my father was a third grade detective for twenty

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Speaker 5: seven years.

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Speaker 4: He never made grade.

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Speaker 5: Took me twenty years to make first grade.

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Speaker 4: I knew she was helping me, and I would lie

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Speaker 4: to you if I said no.

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Speaker 2: Louis doesn't have an incentive to doubt the credibility or

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Speaker 2: question the motive of this woman. She was giving names,

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Speaker 2: he was arresting them, The prosecutors put her on the stand,

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Speaker 2: and the judges and juries sent them to prison. It worked.

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Speaker 2: Why question it?

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Speaker 1: It did work. It worked for the entire justice system.

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Speaker 1: In fact, no one in the system seemed to worry

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Speaker 1: about her credibility. I think most people just thought she

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Speaker 1: was useful. They didn't even know who she was.

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Speaker 2: That's in a moment. For all the trials she testified in,

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Speaker 2: no one really seemed to know Theresa.

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Speaker 3: I had a really hard time getting information on her.

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Speaker 5: She was middle of the road. She was never really happy,

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Speaker 5: never really said.

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Speaker 7: There was nothing overly to stink about.

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Speaker 5: Her, skinny, average size, disheveled.

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Speaker 3: I think she married somebody for residency.

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Speaker 4: I think she was Jamaican.

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Speaker 3: I understand that she was an immigrant from Trinidad.

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Speaker 1: One person who did know Teresa was Robert Hill.

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Speaker 2: Remember Robert Hill. He is the one who helped launch

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Speaker 2: Frenchy's New York Times investigation into Scarcela.

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Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen eighties. Hill and Teresa moved in

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Speaker 1: the same circles. Both sold drugs. Hill sometimes sold Teresa

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Speaker 1: Krach even gave her a good customer discount. Robert Hill

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Speaker 1: made his living robbing drug dealers in one neighborhood and

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Speaker 1: selling their drugs in another. Later, Teresa said that he'd

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Speaker 1: robbed her at gunpoint.

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Speaker 2: She talks to Louis and accuses Hill of murder, but

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Speaker 2: it doesn't go the way she expected. Hill was picked up,

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Speaker 2: he was questioned, and then he was released. Teresa's life

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Speaker 2: must get really scary. And here's a guy she accused

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Speaker 2: of murder and he's back on the streets.

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Speaker 1: So what should Teresa do? Better call Louie. The same

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Speaker 1: day Hill was released, Teresa contacts Detective Scarcella. She said

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Speaker 1: Hill wants quote big mouth Teresa Gomez to pay the piper,

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Speaker 1: and now, lucky for Teresa, it just so happens she

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Speaker 1: has another murder to offer Scarsella. She now tells her

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Speaker 1: favorite detective she saw Robert Hill kill someone else, so.

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Speaker 2: Let's get this street. She named Hill in one murder,

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Speaker 2: and once he's back out in the streets, she suddenly

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Speaker 2: remembers another murder she saw Hill committee once she had

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Speaker 2: neglected to mention before.

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Speaker 1: So the cops pick Hill up again on the very

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Speaker 1: same day he's released on the first murder.

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Speaker 2: That's just astounding to me, and it makes me wonder

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Speaker 2: was she really a helpless drug addict or was she

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Speaker 2: a master manipulator. I mean, people claim Scarcella used Teresa,

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Speaker 2: but maybe it was the other way around. Maybe she

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Speaker 2: used him, and in this case, at least to survive.

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Speaker 1: I asked Scarcela about that.

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Speaker 5: If she used me as her private homicide detective, she

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Speaker 5: used the district attorney's office. Also, she manipulated the system

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Speaker 5: and got over on people much smarter than me.

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Speaker 4: You're the only.

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Speaker 5: Person who's saying that that didn't come up, but I

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Speaker 5: don't think so.

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Speaker 1: In any event, Now, Robert Hill was headed to trial

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Speaker 1: for murder for two murders, actually back to back trials,

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Speaker 1: and Teresa she testified in both.

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Speaker 2: The first traw came and went. Teresa said Robert Hill

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Speaker 2: did it, and the medical examiner said he couldn't have

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Speaker 2: done it.

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Speaker 1: Robert Hill was acquitted, but then a twist, the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner realized she made a mistake, but it was too late.

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Speaker 1: The trial was over. Now though Teresa is apparently credible again,

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Speaker 1: at least that's what the prosecutor is thinking, so he

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Speaker 1: figures he'll give her another shot at the second Robert

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Speaker 1: Hill trial. Before we get there, I want to remind

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Speaker 1: you of that Cigar Forum post, the one French he

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Speaker 1: discovered back in episode one.

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Speaker 3: It was near folly to even think that anyone would

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Speaker 3: believe Gomez about anything, let alone the fact that she

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Speaker 3: witnessed the same guy kill two different people.

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Speaker 1: The guy who wrote that Cigar Forum post is the

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Speaker 1: prosecutor in both Robert Hill trials. He just loust the

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Speaker 1: first case, and the second is looming, and now he's

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Speaker 1: about to put Teresa on the stand again.

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Speaker 2: So the same prosecutor who says that no one should

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Speaker 2: believe Teresa is the same prosecutor who puts her on

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Speaker 2: this hand twice. I mean, this is just amazing.

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Speaker 1: Listen. I think what he might be saying is he

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Speaker 1: feared no one would believe her.

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Speaker 4: He hopes they will.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So let's examine her behavior in the courtroom. We

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Speaker 1: have transcripts from trial number two. In that case, Teresa

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Speaker 1: claims she saw Hill shoot the victim two times point blank.

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Speaker 2: Here's a question. The defense attorney asked Teresa, after the

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Speaker 2: first shot was fired, how long a period elapsed before

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Speaker 2: the second shot was fired. Teresa's answer, I can't say

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Speaker 2: how long a period of time before the second shot? Question?

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Speaker 2: Was it more than five minutes? Teresa responds if I

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Speaker 2: just say, I can't say, you can't ask me how

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Speaker 2: many minutes it was. At this point, the judge butts in, well,

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Speaker 2: do you know the difference between let's say five minutes

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Speaker 2: and fifteen minutes. Of course, I know the difference, your honor.

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Speaker 2: Was it closer to five minutes, closer to fifteen minutes?

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Speaker 2: Closer to five? Did you see him fall to the ground.

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Speaker 2: Of course I had to see him fall to the

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Speaker 2: ground in order to tell you that. What do you

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Speaker 2: think I'm crazy? Did he fall to the ground after

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Speaker 2: after the first shot and before the second shot? No,

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Speaker 2: he stood up and danced.

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Speaker 3: She's belligerent, She's sarcastic.

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Speaker 2: She's rude, frenchy, robless.

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Speaker 3: Ridiculous, argumentative, getting all the facts wrong. Doesn't remember.

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Speaker 1: The defense attorney had Teresa's testimony from the first trial,

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Speaker 1: so he can compare her answers in the second and

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Speaker 1: guess what. She's inconsistent. She's very inconsistent. In one trial,

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Speaker 1: she was married in eighty five. In another, she testified

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Speaker 1: she was married in eighty seven. In one she'd been

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn seven years, in another twelve years. Theresa actually

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Speaker 1: admitted she lied in the first trial more or less

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Speaker 1: because she was in a bad mood.

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Speaker 2: Here's what Teresa says on the stand about her testimony

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Speaker 2: in that first trial. Quote, I could have testified to

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Speaker 2: anything because I was angry and frustrated and miserable. I

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Speaker 2: just didn't want to be bothered keep the defense counsel

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Speaker 2: from bugging me. End quote Dax.

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Speaker 1: She just admitted to being a liar, and I gotta

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Speaker 1: wonder what the jury made of this. Well, we were

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Speaker 1: able to track down a juror from the second Robert

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Speaker 1: Hill case. The juror wanted to remain a none but

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Speaker 1: said that pretty much all the jury discussed was whether

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Speaker 1: Teresa was believable. This person explained the jury's reasoning. A

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Speaker 1: crack addict might have a damaged brain. She might not

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Speaker 1: remember certain details, but she would remember somebody blowing someone's

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Speaker 1: head off with a gun. A month or so after

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Speaker 1: the trial, this jurors with a friend on the subway

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Speaker 1: when they happened to run into the prosecutor. He thanked

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Speaker 1: the juror. He said, we finally got this guy. He's

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Speaker 1: murdered a lot of people, and he said that they'd

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Speaker 1: never been able to get him because none of the

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Speaker 1: previous witnesses came across as credible. Then he congratulated the juror.

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Speaker 1: You guys did the right thing, and the juror felt awesome.

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Speaker 2: Robert Hill was convicted of murder in the second degree

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Speaker 2: and sentenced to eighteen to life.

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Speaker 5: Teresa Gomez, the woman of that has been the center

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Speaker 5: of my life for the last one hred and a

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Speaker 5: half years.

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Speaker 1: Louis is and has always been a believer in Teresa.

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Speaker 5: Teresa Gomez was a truthful eyewitness.

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Speaker 2: But the District Attorney's Conviction Review Unit could not disagree.

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Speaker 4: More.

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Speaker 2: The DA's office set up the CRU to reinvestigate questionable convictions,

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Speaker 2: and Robert Hills was one of them. Its investigation did

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Speaker 2: agree that Teresa could have witnessed six murders not unreasonable.

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Speaker 1: It concluded, so her prolificness as a witness, which seems

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Speaker 1: so scandalous today, it's plausible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does have problems with her credibility. The

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Speaker 2: report called her increasingly erratic, inconsistent, and incredible. It didn't

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Speaker 2: say Robert Hill was innocent, but it does say that

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Speaker 2: Teresa never should have been allowed to testify. Taylor cost

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Speaker 2: is one of the attorneys in the CRU who reviewed

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Speaker 2: Robert Hill's case. He wouldn't have believed anything Teresa said.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, in one of the trials she definitely testified.

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Speaker 5: Heyazac Kite and the judge had to stop the proceedings

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Speaker 5: in the middle.

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Speaker 1: But here's the shocker. Teresa Gomez, Scarcella's go to witness,

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Speaker 1: is usually seen as proof that he cheated to get convictions,

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Speaker 1: but the report is definitive in this regard quote. There

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Speaker 1: is no indication Scarcella pressured her to be a witness,

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Speaker 1: went out of his way to procure her as a witness,

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Speaker 1: or falsified her witness statements. Everyone knew who Teresa Gomez was.

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Speaker 1: It was totally up to prosecutors whether to use Gomez.

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Speaker 2: And they shouldn't have. But what I guess I'm struggling

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Speaker 2: with here is and correct me if I'm wrong. It

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Speaker 2: sounds like they're saying Scarcela is exonerated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's what they are saying, and I

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Speaker 1: do think it's confusing. I mean, the report basically says

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Speaker 1: that Louise's go to witness is basically crap, totally not believable,

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Speaker 1: But they don't say that Louis had any duty to

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Speaker 1: investigate her credibility. I mean, as a first grade detective,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to look at the credibility of your

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Speaker 1: lead witness. So one day I met Louis at the diner,

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Speaker 1: that same diner in Coney Island where we first met

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Speaker 1: years earlier.

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Speaker 2: Do you think you were ever gullible with her?

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Speaker 5: If you're saying, did she get over on me? Did

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Speaker 5: she get over on a whole cadre of district attorneys?

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Speaker 5: Did she get over on the judge into yours?

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Speaker 4: I think not.

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Speaker 1: I did my job.

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Speaker 5: I thought she was a credible witness. She proved herself

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Speaker 5: to be a credible witness, and in some cases she

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Speaker 5: wasn't a credible witness.

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Speaker 4: That that.

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Speaker 5: I'm not gonna I'm not going to take.

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Speaker 4: Any blame for that.

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Speaker 5: I'm not gonna say I'm sorry, But I brought her

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Speaker 5: to the DA and they bought her to court. Did

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Speaker 5: jury looked at her, the judge looked at her. The

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Speaker 5: judge could have thrown the cases out on any two

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Speaker 5: occasions during the during the trial.

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Speaker 2: So in Louis's mind, he's the person who's been wrongfully convicted.

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Speaker 5: Ray Childs could see that I'm an escapegoat.

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Speaker 2: But that's not how Robert Hill sees it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he spent twenty seven years in prison because of Teresa

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Speaker 2: Gomez and it just shouldn't have.

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Speaker 1: In May of twenty fourteen, Robert Hill limped into a

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn courtroom. The head of the cru addressed the court.

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Speaker 9: District Attorney has determined the thief use of this witness,

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Speaker 9: impairing the integrity of the conviction against mister Hill, deprived

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Speaker 9: him of a fair trial.

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Speaker 1: Robert Hill was fifty two years old. His dreadlocks were

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Speaker 1: pulled back that day. He walked out of the court

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Speaker 1: a free man. With the help of a cane. He

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Speaker 1: was thronged by the press as he made his way to.

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Speaker 2: Freedom to build the out.

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Speaker 10: Good.

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Speaker 1: I will go home my family right now, I think

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Speaker 1: about after all that's happened. Louis still insists he believes Teresa,

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Speaker 1: and he still cares about her.

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Speaker 5: A lot of people considered a lot of these murders insignificant,

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Speaker 5: a lot of them, I'm telling you, a lot of

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Speaker 5: people in high places, and they would think Teresa Gomez

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Speaker 5: was insignificant. She was a crackhead, and she was special

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Speaker 5: to me. I offered her everything. I offered her a

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Speaker 5: new life. I I know I could have gotten her

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Speaker 5: a job. I know I could have gotten her a

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Speaker 5: place to stay.

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Speaker 4: She wanted no part of it. Whenever you see my picture,

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Speaker 4: her picture comes up.

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Speaker 5: And that's her there, and it's like taking me back

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Speaker 5: to the time we were together in this this this,

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Speaker 5: this this crazy world of murder.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Joe, Louis Scarsella, how waii, buddy.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in Louis Scarcella's house in Staten Island, a

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Speaker 1: modest house, two floors. Louis and his wife upstairs, one

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Speaker 1: of his daughters downstairs. It's Christmas. Louie's living room is covered,

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Speaker 1: I mean every surface in decorations.

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Speaker 5: Anything ever come out with the Teresa Gomez.

401
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Speaker 1: We learned something new. The cru didn't have the full picture.

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00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: They didn't talk to Louis, and Louis told us Teresa

403
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Speaker 1: claimed to witness eleven murders. Even the DA thought that

404
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: eleven was just too many, and that ended Teresa's tenure

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Speaker 1: as a witness.

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Speaker 4: That was in the.

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Speaker 1: Early nineties, the same time that Louie's relationship with Teresa.

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Speaker 4: Ended.

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Speaker 1: As I sit at Louis's dining room table, it's almost

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Speaker 1: thirty years later, and Louis wants to find out what

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Speaker 1: happened to Teresa.

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Speaker 4: So he's on the phone.

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Speaker 5: As you said, you were going to check the morgue

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Speaker 5: if you got a chance.

415
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 4: You know, if you can give me a call, I

416
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 4: appreciate it. Bye bye.

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00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: Louie had heard a rumor that Teresa was killed in

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Speaker 1: the early nineties.

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Speaker 5: What baffles my mind was right there in the seven

420
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Speaker 5: to seven.

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00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: It was my zone.

422
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 5: How could she have gotten killed? Maybe it was a

423
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 5: homicide on a different name and it just went right

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Speaker 5: by me and I didn't catch it.

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00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: The cru located her death certificate. Teresa died on June seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. She'd fallen out of a moving car.

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00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: The report doesn't say she was pushed, but a lot

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00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: of people must have been happy to see her dead. Louis,

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00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: for one, thinks it was a homicide. She's got to

430
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 1: know she's sacrificing her life to help Louis Carsella.

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00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 5: I cannot aim answer that question. I tried everything I

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00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 5: could do to protect her.

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00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: Another time, Louis takes me to Teresa's mother's apartment in Brooklyn.

434
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: Maybe she can tell him what happened to Teresa, but

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00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: he's out of luck. A neighbor tells us that Teresa's

436
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: mother recently passed away. Louis disappointed, We get back in

437
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: my car and we drive to their meeting place in

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Speaker 1: front of Saint Teresa's church.

439
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 5: She just get in the backseat and I would just

440
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 5: try to drive around. Sometimes I'd stay here. Sometimes I

441
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 5: meet her in a mom's house, but she would always

442
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 5: hang out around here. If I was looking for I'd

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Speaker 5: find her.

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Speaker 1: As we sit in the car, suddenly the church bells ring.

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Speaker 1: The bells of Saint Teresa.

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Speaker 11: Has the bells toll? What are they told for Lisa Gomez?

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Speaker 11: For Teresa Gomez.

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Speaker 4: I really I feel bad if she was murdered.

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Speaker 5: I hope she wasn't, and if she was a hope

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Speaker 5: at interface because I'm not saying I got her killed.

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Speaker 5: I'm not saying that, but you are kind of but

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Speaker 5: I cannot feel I mean, if I wouldn't be human

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Speaker 5: if I didn't feel that way.

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Speaker 2: Next time on the Burden, The Dilemma of Derek Hamilton,

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Speaker 2: the leader of the jail house law firm who claims

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00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: he was framed twice.

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Speaker 10: The judge puts his arms around me, I mean, and

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00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 10: a tight hug, and he kind of speaks into my

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Speaker 10: ear and he says, just take it easy, just calm down.

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Speaker 10: We both know who this guy is.

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Speaker 5: We both know he's guilty.

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Speaker 10: So can't you just calm down and let this go.

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Speaker 6: I'm a sinner, baby, I'm all the power you need now,

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Speaker 6: I'm out of the bottom.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna set you free. The Burden is created by

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Speaker 1: Steve Fishman.

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00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 4: That's me.

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00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 1: It's hosted and reported by Steve Fishman and Dax Devlin.

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Speaker 4: Ross.

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Speaker 1: Story editor is Dan Bobkoff. Our senior producer is Simon Rentner.

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Speaker 1: Our producer is Sanam Skelly, Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact

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Speaker 1: checking by Sona Avakian. Our production coordinator is Davon Paradise.

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Speaker 1: Mixing and sound design by Mumbo Media. Our executive producers

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Speaker 1: are Fisher, Stevens, Evan Williams and Me Steve Fishman. Additional

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00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: production help from Joe Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Bronner, Lucy Soucheck,

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00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla Alabby, Jaxon Baard, Katie Simon,

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00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: and Katie Spranger. We give special thanks to Ellen Horn,

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00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempey, Tobiah Black, Rachel Morrissey Lyla Robinson,

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00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: Mark Smerling and Jack Stewart Pontier. And deep appreciation to

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00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: Marcy Wiseman, special thanks to our agents Ben Davis and

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00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: Marissa Hurrowitz. Mona Hook provided our legal advice. She's from

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Speaker 1: MKSR LLP. And a very special thanks to Evan Williams,

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Speaker 1: one of our executive producers and the person who made

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Speaker 1: this podcast possible. We are honored to feature the song

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00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: black Lightning from The Bell Rays as our theme music.

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Speaker 1: The Burden is a production of Orbit Media in association

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00:31:50,080 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one. Season two of The Burden

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00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: Empire on Blood will be available everywhere you get your

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00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: podcasts on August seventh. All episodes will be available early

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00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: and ad free, along with exclusive bonus content on Orbit's

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00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: It's only two ninety nine a month.