1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. When Kurt Anderson started working 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: on his new podcast, Nixon at War, he thought he 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: knew a fair amount about Richard Nixon's presidency, including two 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: defining experiences. His nineteen sixty eight campaign promised to end 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War and his nineteen seventy three resignation due 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: to Watergate, devastating but unrelated events, or so he thought. 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: The surprising connection between those two are at the heart 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: of Nixon at War. You may know Kurt Anderson from 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: his award winning radio program Studio three sixty. He's a 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: prize winning novelist and historian whose three most recent books, 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: Evil Geniuses, Fantasy Land, and you Can't Spell America Without Me. 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: We're all New York Times bestsellers. Anderson says, to understand 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: Nixon's plans for Vietnam, you need to appreciate how much 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,119 Speaker 1: was at stake for Nixon when he ran in nineteen 16 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon, despite the fact that he was not a 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: beloved figure in America as vice president, he had a 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: very kind of meteoric young career. As a very young man, 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: had never really been in politics right out of World 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: War Two, was elected to the House in California, like 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: had promptly after two terms of the Senate in California, 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: before he had even had a couple of years in 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: the Senate, was picked the vice president by Dwight Eysmower. 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: And and so then of course he was going to 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: run for president in nineteen sixty and and barely lost, 26 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: but then lost again when he ran for governor of California. 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: So this incredible rise, this recent fall, and this is 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: a guy who never felt comfortable in his own skin 29 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: with the world, didn't like socializing. Was this weirdo, this resentful, 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: paranoid weirdo, who had done really well and now it 31 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: was all slipping away. This was his last chance. This 32 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: is his last chance to get back at the Kennedy 33 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: Ivy League elites who beating him in nineteen sixty He 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: moved to the heart of it, right and moved to 35 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: the upper East side of Manhattan after he got beaten 36 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: for the government of California. And and just right there 37 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: in the middle of it where everyone hated Hi murdered 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: and he hated them, but by god, he was gonna 39 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: do it. And and so this was this real then 40 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: Jean's field comeback attempt. That's where he is as as 41 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: a figure, I often think that someone is chosen as 42 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: vice president who can come in hand you to do 43 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: things the president won't do. Eisenhowerd was probably the last 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: president of the United States chosen by acclamation. Did not 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: want to be the president, was pressured into doing that. 46 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: Not a details guy at that point in his life, 47 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: wanted to go play golf and take it easy. So 48 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: he brings Nixon and by my lights to do the 49 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,399 Speaker 1: dirty work. Who better the Nixons to do dirty work. 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: I mean, Eisenhoward needed somebody who was a political hitman 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 1: and enforcer. And so because he wasn't going to micromanage 52 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: that way, Eisenhower and Nixon cuts his teeth on Alger 53 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: Hiss and all this kind of pumpkin papers and all 54 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: this other stuff. He's an anti communist tool, if you will, 55 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: during a time when anti communism seemed too many people 56 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: in the country the right thing to be doing. My 57 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: favorite scene about the American nineteen fifties is in Manchurian 58 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: Candidate when Angela landsbois there with her husband and he says, 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: there are hundred five communists and the government. I said, 60 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: though a hundred forty five, how many other hundred eighty nine? 61 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: He just keeps changing the number right in the same 62 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: paragraph that he's talking, which is not unlike certain moments 63 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: in Joe McCarthy's real life where he was saying, you know, 64 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: he changed the number all the time. No, I mean, 65 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: you know, the Soviet Union having been our buddies in 66 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: World War Two, suddenly we're not our buddies, and suddenly 67 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: had the atomic bomb, and then the hydrogen bomb. Anti 68 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: communism got out of control and created McCarthyism. But it 69 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't nuts to be frightened of the Soviet Union, 70 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: even though it went crazily too far. And yeah, Richard 71 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: Nixon saw this is how he could make his career 72 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 1: and did. And making an enemy of the people out 73 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: of aldra Hiss along with Jeheger Hoover in the around 74 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty was the way he did it, and it worked. 75 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: And squishy soft Dwight Eisenhower, who by the way, and 76 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: won World War Two for the Islands. I'll pick this 77 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: anti communists, as you say, tool hitman to uh show 78 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: that he was good as an e communist, even though 79 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: that didn't stop the John Birch Society later in the 80 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: fifties into the sixties of claiming that Dwight Eisenhower was 81 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: a conscious stooge of the Soviet Union. Well, it's funny 82 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: when I think when you see Eisenhower, oh, PSC won 83 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: World War Two. Yes, but I always think Eisenhower's career, 84 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: even though you think that there's an inextricable link between 85 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: the military and the government at that point, there wasn't 86 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: necessarily one and and and the man that won World 87 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: War Two, of course exited the office in his farewell 88 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: speech warning about the creating the phrase military industrial complex papabah. 89 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: But what I was thinking is I see Eisenhower to 90 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: me as president was like as if Ted Williams was president. 91 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: It's like the guy that won all these games. He 92 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: was a hero, but he wasn't necessarily what we could 93 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: we equate now with the president as an executive. No, 94 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: and figurehead is unfair too, but he was. He was 95 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: a hero and then beat twice the same liberal elite 96 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: egghead and like Stevenson who was running against him. You 97 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: mentioned passingly in the piece about your own background, in 98 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: your own family and for your Republican household. Would you say, 99 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: when Nixon is elected in sixty eight, where are you well? 100 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: When Nixon's elected in sixty eight? Just fourteen? Your fourteen 101 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: and your parents were pro Nixon. Oh, definitely, I was 102 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: pro Nixon when I was thirteen. I was. I was 103 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: a little teenage republic I went to teenage Republican camp. 104 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: Had a had a poster of Nixon on my wall. 105 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: I wish I had photographs of that whole He had 106 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: a poster of Nixon on your wall. In terms of 107 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: decorating your room. You were like the Roger Stone of 108 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: your generation. I hate to say that a little bit, 109 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: but then again, you know, summer of sixty eight came. 110 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: My older brother and sisters took me in hand, and 111 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: by the fall I was a hippie. Now, comparatively speaking, 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: now you have how many siblings. That's you plus three, 113 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: It is me plus three. And the other ones were 114 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: more liberally inclined than they were older. So I was 115 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,679 Speaker 1: the youngest and they've gone through the countercultural transformation ahead 116 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: of me. It was the one window where your siblings 117 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: were more politically evolved than you were. That didn't last long. 118 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: And then they definitely, definitely were politically culturally all that 119 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: they were, you know, fifteen eighteen one, so they were 120 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: into the late sixties. And and what happened to you 121 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: when you were four to I don't know. I smoked pot, 122 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: I started reading other books and other things than William F. 123 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: Buckley Jr. And Uh, I self radicalized like but no, 124 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: I but your parents did Republicans absolutely, although interestingly I 125 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: described the kinds of Nebraska Republicans my parents were, which 126 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: is to say atheists, big public radio enthusiasts, when when 127 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: public radio began, big environmentalists and and pro choice and 128 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: so on and so on. And my mother, who outlived 129 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: my father, finally left the Republican Party at the end 130 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: of the ninety nineties because it was no longer her party. Gasp. 131 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: Did she vote for Bill? She probably didn't vote for Bill, 132 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: but she started a Bob Terry, who was our senator, 133 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: was a sort of her entryway drug to becoming a 134 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: now sixty eight, I'm ten years old, big turning point 135 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: for me politically. Through the eyes of my father and 136 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: through the lens of his progressive he was a democratic 137 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: commitment in our town and so forth, through his eyes 138 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: and This is after Kennedy is killed, of course, so 139 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: everybody's just, you know, just just seething with emotion. Bobby 140 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy. So we're watching the convention and it's like, 141 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: are you rooting for the Chicago police? Are you rooting 142 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: for the demonstrator? Who are you rooting for? My dad, 143 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: I was rooting for the protesters. He was an anti police. 144 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: He was a very, very middle of the road Democrat, 145 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: but he was rooting for the protesters. And I'm wondering, 146 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: what was that like for you? Were your parents rooting 147 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: for the Chicago cops. So they weren't. They were the 148 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: extinct species of decent liberal Republicans, although they considered themselves 149 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: conservative and we're kind of very Goldwater Fans back then. 150 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: But as the party moved right and they didn't, they 151 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: thought they didn't have a party. So, no, they weren't 152 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: in favor. Were the issues more important to them? Military? 153 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: Strong military was somewhat important, but conservation actually was a 154 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: huge thing for them, and actual liberty not to be 155 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: run by religious nuts, because they were anti religious, really, 156 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: and they wanted to live a free life with as 157 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: few you know, rules and regulations as possible. Really, and 158 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: my father also his his profession, he was a lawyer, 159 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,479 Speaker 1: and and he his specialty was labor law, representing corporations 160 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: and management. And so he was not viciously anti union. 161 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: And in fact, subsequently school teachers against whom he negotiated 162 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: contracts had said to me since he died, like, you know, 163 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: your dad was always a decent guy, and he always 164 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: was fair and somebody managements well exactly, so I was 165 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: the opposite of a red diaper baby. You were a 166 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: boss baby something like that. You were suiting tie baby. 167 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: Well I wasn't. I didn't go that whole Alex Keaton thing. Ever, 168 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: although in retrospect, I guess you could you could see that. 169 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: I mean as no as a twelve thirty funeral. I 170 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: must have been an insufferable little dick, you know, with 171 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: my little Republican talking points. Pretty but as you mentioned, 172 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: I'm conveniently using you and your family to frame what 173 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: Republicanism was back then. You say Goldwater Republican on in 174 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: the heartland, but at first is New Yorker was Rockefeller right? Correct? 175 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: Were the whole thing? We're like, we don't give a 176 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: shit about abortion, we don't give a shit about you 177 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: want to order a gay wedding cake. Just lower my 178 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: taxes and cut the regulation on my business exactly. And 179 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: my parents were very pro civil rights, and my mother, 180 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: until she left the party, always referred to it as 181 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:50,599 Speaker 1: the Party of Lincoln, the Party of Lincoln. We're the 182 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: Party of Lincoln. Everett Dirkson was was her and their hero, who, 183 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: by the way, helped Lennon Johnson passed the Civil Rights 184 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: Act and the Voting Rights Act. So you know, they 185 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: were economic conservatives, absolutely, and they believe in the strong military. 186 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: But all the other stuff, all the culture war stuff 187 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: that didn't know, which wasn't part of Republicanism very much 188 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: back then until Richard Nixon made it so was not 189 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: their cup of tea at all. Now, I don't expect 190 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: you to concur with me here, but before we launched 191 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: into Nixon full blown in the war, I want to 192 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: just go trace backwards and say that if Elsberg, who 193 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: himself was a self described hawk during the period prior 194 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: to the Pentagon Papers and working at RAND, eventually realized 195 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: that this policy is a catastrophic and immoral. But I'm 196 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: assuming that when the truth of the Pentagon Papers, when 197 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: the Rand Corporation submits their report that's around what year 198 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: sixty seven, no, sixty eight they finished, and it was 199 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: it was really right before Nickson mcame president that they finished. 200 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: So there was it was it safe to assume that 201 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: kind of information, that's specific cash of paperwork was not 202 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: made available to Johnson. Johnson did not know about the 203 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: Rand Report. Well, it was actually I mean Rand was 204 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: part of it, and Elbert worked for Rand, as you say, um, 205 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: but it was it was a Defense Department report, commission commission, 206 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: and so it was under commission under mcnamaraon LBJ and 207 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: finished under Clark Clifford and lb J. So yeah, Johnson 208 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: was very much aware of it. Did it go to him? 209 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: I don't actually know that, but it was secret, So, 210 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: but I'm always wondering, and I've said this to his 211 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: face to Bob Caro. You obviously have all this worship 212 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: of Johnson and his political acumen and the kind of 213 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: heft and the grandeur of his career and his position 214 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: in our history and how determinative was in our history 215 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: beyond Kennedy's death and sixty three and what he did 216 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: in those years. But let's face facts. At one point, 217 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: did he know that the Vietnam War was wrong anymoral 218 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: and why don't you call him on that? And I'm 219 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: wondering in the research you did, did Johnson know before 220 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: he left? Yes, he definitely did. I mean that we 221 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: have a bit of a phone call he had had 222 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: back in the nineteen sixties six, you know, with Eugene 223 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: McCarthy saying, I want to get out of it as 224 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: much as you do. Jeane hated you know, it's awful. Um. 225 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: I mean, he was not a you know, a moralist 226 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: in the in the Bobby Kennedy sense, say, you know, 227 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: but he knew it was a bad deal and he 228 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: made a mistake and he needed to get out. And 229 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: then you know, in sixty eight and as you hear 230 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: in this show with his conversations with Nixon and his 231 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: conversation with his Secretary of State Dean Russ and other 232 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,719 Speaker 1: people like I will tell America I'm not running and 233 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: I got nine months to try to really start our 234 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: way out. Johnson wants to get out and Nixon doesn't 235 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: want to get out because he wants it to stay 236 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: so he can get us out. He could be the hero. 237 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: Well he wants to, Yes, he wants to. Nixon wants 238 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: it both ways. Nixon wants to get elected by saying, 239 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: these Democrats have met bungled this war, and I'll be 240 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: a tough minded guy who will finish it right and 241 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: and soon. But then when when peace is at hand 242 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: in the night, Nixon goes, oh, this is gonna beat me. 243 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: This is gonna elect Humbert Humphrey the vice president, and 244 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: we I gotta I gotta postpone this piece thing. So 245 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: explain to the listeners what's the thing. Johnson tells Nixon 246 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: in the phone call not to do that. Nixon does 247 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: well Johnson Johnson tells Nixon not to do multiple times. 248 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: Nixon says he's not going to do it multiple times 249 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: in the fall of sixty eight, which is talk and 250 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: and say I'll do a better deal for you South Vietnam. 251 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: I'll do a better deal for you North Vietnam. Elect me, everybody, 252 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: and I'll end this war because I won't have this 253 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: Johnson Kennedy baggage. And and he keeps quiet for a 254 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: little bit, but then he Nixon freaks out, thinks he's 255 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: gonna lose, and just like goes full Nixon and tries 256 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: to mess up these Paris piece talks to end the 257 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: Vietnam War had really started to take off and there 258 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: was about to be a big breakthrough, and Nixon didn't 259 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: want that to happen. A week or two, Well, he 260 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: does a lot of stuff. Most he does this thing 261 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: that he spent the rest of his life covering up. 262 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:59,479 Speaker 1: He gets this fascinating woman named Anna Chenault, this Chinese 263 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: teenage reprovocateur. Well, but she's she deserves her own podcast, 264 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: she deserves her own biopic. Anyway. She meets this uh 265 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: as a nineteen hole reporter in China during World War Two, 266 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: meets this General Marrison. They moved to America. He dies 267 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: right away. She's rich. She's this glamorous, rich, anti communist, 268 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: right wing widow living at the Watergate like too good 269 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: to be true, and becomes Nixon's biggest female donor and finagler. 270 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: She also is good pals in her anti communist way 271 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: with the South. FETA music ambassador to the US introduces 272 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: the two of them at this secret meeting in the 273 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: summer of n at which Richard Nixon says, Okay, Mr Ambassador, 274 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: you and President too of South Vietnam. You've gotta understand 275 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: this woman your pal, and Channault is my person to you. 276 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: She she is my whatever I'm want you to do, 277 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: she's the person telling you that. And when a couple 278 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: of a few months later, when the election gets closed 279 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: and this and this He's breakthrough is about to happen, 280 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: he Nixon and Nixon's people set out what he called 281 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: the Dragon Lady to go tell too and the ambassador no, no, no, no, 282 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: don't go along with this piece deal. You gotta you 283 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: gotta make sure this doesn't have a better deal. When 284 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: we come in, you'll get and I'll owe you right. 285 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: And so don't make anything happen before November five. You know, 286 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: it reminds me of the whole hostage crisis with Carter. 287 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: And they go and they basically, if I'm not mistaken, 288 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: they do the same thing. Don't release the hostages to 289 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: weaken in there. We gotta get rid of Carter. Is 290 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: it similar? Well, is it's comparable. This was an ongoing war. 291 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: This wasn't a few dozen hostages. This was an ongoing 292 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: war where hundreds of Americans were dying every week. And 293 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: they're saying, let's extend this so I can get elected. 294 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: I mean, what's interesting to me about this part of 295 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: the story. It was eclipsed in history and in the 296 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: popular understanding by Watergate. But this is where it all began. 297 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: This is the thing he did which was illegal and 298 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: and a federal crime. Undoubtedly a citizen messing around with 299 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: foreign policy, you know, in this very specific way. And 300 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: then he was worried the rest of his time alive 301 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: and certainly as president, that this was going to come 302 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: out and uh lead to his downfall. So what did 303 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: he do? He committed burglaries that led to his downfall. 304 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: Author and podcaster Kurt Anderson. If you want to deep 305 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: dive on the Vietnam War, Ken Burns and Lynn Novic's 306 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: eighteen hour documentary is a good place to start. Ken 307 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: Burns told me he screened a final version for Senator 308 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: John McCain, a decorated pow who was particularly fascinated by 309 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: the interviews with North Vietnamese soldiers. What you begin to 310 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: realize is that at that point of combat, which is 311 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: where human beings are at their very worst, they're really 312 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: good at killing the other people and avoiding being killed 313 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: or all this stuff happens, but it's hell, and we 314 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: couldn't even possibly imagine what it's like, and we've tried 315 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: so hard in so many films from Civil War through 316 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: World War Two into this. But they recognize each other, 317 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: and they that recognition is transcendent, and so he wants 318 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: to see what they're saying, and what they're saying sounds 319 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: so exactly like our marines and our army guys. And 320 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: so you have a marine, for example, Karmar Lantis, who says, 321 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, we're not the dominant species on the planet 322 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: because we're nice, right, And people complained that, oh, the 323 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: military turns young men into killing machines. I'd suggest it's 324 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: only finishing school. Here more of my conversation with Ken 325 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: Burns and Lynn Novik that Here's the Thing dot Org. 326 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: After the break, Kurt Anderson talks about Nixon and Henry 327 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: Kissinger's faithful decision to bomb neutral Cambodia. Bi'm Alec Baldwin 328 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the thing. Kurt Anderson says, 329 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon had a number of close advisors, but on 330 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: they listened to a few. Henry Kissinger definitely had his 331 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: ear and his trust, even though they mistrusted each other 332 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: because they were both manipulating guys. They were scorpions in 333 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: the Oval office together but Bob Holdenman, his chief of staff, 334 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 1: he he thought was a smart political guy and a 335 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: tough guy and all that. But like in terms of 336 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: oh should I get out of Vietnam sooner rather than later? Kissinger, 337 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: if he was of a mind to do that, I 338 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: think could have done that, and could have you know, 339 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: could have talked him out conceivably of all kinds of things. 340 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: Did he have his trust though? Because when he gives 341 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: that speech, and you're talking about like episode five or six, 342 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: he gives that speech and Kissinger there's a long clip 343 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: of kissing going, I've never heard of speech delivered like this, 344 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: to the greatest speech that an actor never could have read, 345 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,959 Speaker 1: that written that speech, And he said, I think I 346 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: was as good as any actor in Hollywood. He says, 347 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: and and and what's what's the speech again? He gives 348 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: There was the famous silent majority speech back in the 349 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: fall at sixty nine he gave. But this was afterwards 350 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: and the Kissinger actually says the one non ass kissing 351 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: thing in these hours of tapes with Nix and he says, 352 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: he but that wasn't as well delivered as this one, 353 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: Mr President, And yes, you're right, and we run that 354 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: so long those calls. Kissinger called him I think five 355 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: times that night, just to keep trying to keep giving 356 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: him the drug was praised. The only thing that cemented 357 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: since trust for kissing him was that all you had 358 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: to do. No, that was part of the anti he 359 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: That was the entry admission. He had to do that 360 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: just constantly, obviously because Nixon was so needy for it. 361 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: But no, they had actual substantive conversations about politics and 362 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: geopolitics and Russian Vietnam and all the rest. But they 363 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: were both a moral people and just full of just 364 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: amazing to me listening to these hours of tape, kind 365 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: of grotesque. A morality about killing, killing on the massive scales, 366 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: whether it's Mela, the Meli massacre, or tens of thousands 367 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: and then eventually millions in Cambodia now much as made 368 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: not by you. You You've mentioned it glassingly. Nixon was 369 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: a profound anti Semite. Apparently that never entered Kissinger's mind. 370 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: I Kissinger was unaware of that. Oh, he was fully 371 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: aware of it. He just had to shut up and 372 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: stuck it up. Yeah, not be be one of the 373 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: good Jews, as Nixon more than once talked about. Um, 374 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, William Sapphire, who later became a New York 375 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: Times columnist, was Jewish and his and Agnew's most uh 376 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: you know, Nixon and agnew esque speechwriter before he went 377 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: off to become a cultur prize winning columnists. So he 378 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: was of two minds. I mean, he wasn't, you know 379 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: ku klux Klan committed and devoted to his anti Semitism. 380 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: But he was. And again it's they're all over the tapes, 381 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: especially when he was with Bob Holdaman alone, and they 382 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: could just expose and and share their anti Semitic feelings. 383 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: But no, I mean he understood that Kissinger was a 384 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: really smart guy who was as ruthless and amoral as 385 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: he was, and it was a match made in hell. 386 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: The you and I worked on a book together, our 387 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: Trump parody book. But I would say to people that 388 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: I found it just absolutely I was dumb struck by 389 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: how Trump was able to draw together so many bad people. 390 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: I thought, were there really this many bad people who 391 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: wanted to come to Washington and to pervert the course 392 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: of this government to these purposes? I thought, I couldn't 393 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: even imagine there were that many of them. Can the 394 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: same be said of Nixon or was Nixon not as bad. 395 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: It's a complicated question. I was talking about the other 396 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: day comparing Trump to Nixon. Now, I mean, on the 397 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: one hand, Nixon had actual noble ambitions of being a word, 398 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: accomplished good things and China, so the Union, those were 399 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: good things, and Kissenger helped him stipulating those an E 400 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: p A, Oh my god. On domestic politics, he was 401 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: the most liberal president between you know, lb J and 402 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: Joe Biden. I mean literally, I mean, but what he 403 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: did with and in Southeast Asia is unforgivable because it 404 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: was to him a side show to the big game 405 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: with China and the Soviet Union. It was just let's 406 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: not let Saigon follow the comedies. Before November seventy two, 407 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: that that was it. I mean, after his first year, 408 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: we realized we're not gonna win this. They're not gonna 409 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: stand up. This is gonna fall. I just got to 410 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: make sure it doesn't fall. Before November seventy two, it 411 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: was inexcusable and it was awful. Now he had bad people. Well, 412 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: when when you hear the quotes, when you interrojected, when 413 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: you hear the quote when Haig says we're within an 414 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: eyelash of victory. And this is in nineteen seventies, seventy one. 415 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: This is like, no, we aren't General Haig, and no, 416 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: Haig was his military right hand guy throughout this. And 417 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: what's extraordinary about that line from Hague at that point 418 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: it's Kistener and Nixon knew that wasn't true, that they 419 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: knew that this was a lost game, but that we 420 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: couldn't speed up the withdrawal because then Saigon would fall 421 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: and he would have lost Vietnam. And there's no comparison 422 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: between Donald Trump and Richard Nixon and I Q and 423 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: even in morality, although I mean an experience, yeah so, 424 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: but I don't want to say and therefore Nixon is good. 425 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: I mean, in the argument between who's the worst president, 426 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: it's a kind of a tie between an apple and orange, 427 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, Nixon was intelligent, Nixon actually had 428 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: some things he wanted to do. Nixon was not bad 429 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: as a domestic president, Henry kissing, you're really smart guy, 430 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: on and on and on. But what they did in 431 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: Vietnam and what they did in Watergate, what he did 432 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: in Watergate to undermine American confidence in this possibly fatal 433 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: way along with extending Vietnam? Is this one to punch? 434 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's just inexcusable. I mean if I mean, 435 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: we'll see, right, or maybe we'll see if we live 436 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: long enough, what happens to this country. But was Richard 437 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: Nixon were responsible for its downfall if we come to 438 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: a downfall, or Donald Trump? Both together and and in 439 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: a certain way, which I did really realized before working 440 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: on this piece. You know, marinating in Nixon for a 441 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: year during the last year of the Trump administration, I 442 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: saw the connections between them, even though one was a moron, 443 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: one was more mentally ill than the other, one was 444 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: a bigger liar than Nixon. But you saw how Richard 445 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: Nixon began the rot in the Republican Party and in 446 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: just this cynicism and nihilism that became so big in 447 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: the beginnings at the beginning of the Republican mantra of 448 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: he's a sociopath, but he's our socioth Yes, exactly. Even 449 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: though they got rid of him, and when people, as 450 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: people have said to me, as I've been talking about 451 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: this podcast, well water Gate, we got rid of him 452 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: and it was all good and we're all fine. Well, yeah, 453 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: and it was good what Baker and Goldwater and all 454 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: those Republicans didn't said, Mr President, you gotta get out 455 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: of here, you gotta resign. This isn't this is no 456 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: longer tenable. But there's a certain self flattering focus on 457 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: as opposed to what was just beginning to happen in 458 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: the Republican Party. It's like, you know, don't end in 459 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four when Gerald four takes over and everything's good, 460 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: We're gonna have tanks in the street and look enough, yeah, no, 461 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: and and and I get it, and it was a 462 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: good thing that we did that, but like here in 463 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: one Land, we haven't had that moment where who good, 464 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: We're safe now, you know. No, well, I mean, I 465 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: mean that proposed the book that we did, and the 466 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: whole crap I did on S and L and so 467 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: forth with Trump, And people would ask me for some 468 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: thumbnail analysis and they say to compare Trump and Nixon, 469 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: and I'd say, well, I'm going to paraphrase, and I say, 470 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: all honorable presidents are the same, and all dishonorable presidents 471 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: are dishonorable in their own way. You know that you 472 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: really can't compare them. They're very very very different people. 473 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: And again Nixon because of the breath of his experience 474 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: and Trump with none. But what I do see is 475 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: that both of them brought a lot of bad people 476 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: with him, and Haldmen and Irlckman were bad people. Hague 477 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: is a bad guy in terms of what what I 478 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: believe the world of government should be. Lately, we've been 479 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: reading about as we already knew, but the details of 480 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: Trump's politicization of the Justice Department, his attorney generals. Well, 481 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: there was Richard Nixon who had taken his campaign manager, 482 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: John Mitchell and made him attorney general and just made 483 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: him like part of the criminal gang that then went 484 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: on to do Watergate and cover it up and all 485 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: the rest. So that politicization of the Department of Justice, 486 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: that we're all, look what he did, Look what Trump said? Well, 487 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: this guy did it? You know, yes, exactly. Now, obviously 488 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: something that is as sweeping as this in terms of history, 489 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: there's a lot of history there. Nixon becoming elected in 490 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: nine and why uh, you know, as I've told people, 491 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: it's like Dracula polls the stake out of his art, 492 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: gets out of the coffin and goes to marry your girlfriend. 493 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: You're like, you just can't believe the improbability of this 494 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: whole fucking thing. But in the breadth of this the convention, 495 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: Nixon wins silent majority. On through the war, I want 496 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: to stop and take a moment because there's so much 497 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: there to cover and talk at out of the expansion 498 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: of the war into Cambodia and allows which I viewed 499 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: as war crimes. I mean, these are guys should have 500 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: been prosecuted for war crimes. I mean, to me, the 501 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: war crime that we're committed were what they caused to 502 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: happen in Cambodia. That they caused the crazy faction of 503 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: Communists in Cambodia to win the civil war that had 504 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: barely started in six sixty nine when the Wigs and 505 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: presidency began. But then this bombing, this this relentless bombing 506 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: this neutral country of not very many people by the 507 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: US to get rid of those Vietcong centuaries, whipped up 508 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: this civil war and certainly made it. You know, who 509 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: are you for, the communists or these people who are 510 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: sending thousands of tons of bombs into your homes every 511 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: day and every week for a year after year. And 512 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: of course that made the camer Rouge eventually win that war, 513 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: and and the genocide of killing two million of their 514 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: seven million fellow citizens. So what happened there really is, 515 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: I mean, very arguably a war crime. It's not hyperbole, 516 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: but yes, expanding the war when he was elected to 517 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: end it, and then thinking that they could at least 518 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: be seen as not giving in, not bugging out, and 519 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: and maybe we can just scare the North Vietnamese a 520 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: little bit enough to be more tractable at the peace talks. 521 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: That's what going into Cambodia was about. That's what going 522 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: into Louis was about. And just also a kind of 523 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: bloody minded desire to keep fighting and not losing a war. 524 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: Americans don't lose wars. We've never lost a war. That 525 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: was for both of them, but especially I think Nixon, 526 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: both of them, meaning Kissinger and Nixon, but for Nixon, like, 527 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: I just can't be the guy who loses the war. 528 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, now I'm gonna lose the war, but I'm 529 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: gonna just bomb the hell out of him, even on 530 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: the way out, even if I can't do North Vietnam. 531 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: I think it's literally I want to kill as many 532 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: of them as I can before I signed a document 533 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: in Paris, yes, which they justified to themselves in a 534 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: rational way as all we're getting you know, it's it's 535 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: part of the negotiation process. But now, I mean they 536 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: really didn't get anything more than they could have gotten, 537 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, much earlier in the presidency. But they just 538 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: kept at it. And it's yeah, it's absolutely inexcusable. It's 539 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: almost impossible, I guess. I mean this is true of 540 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: any president. We've imposed a contemporary seco analysis of them. Uh, 541 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: and people positive things like if all these guys have 542 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: been given a really cursory psychiatric examination, they would have 543 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: been ruled ineligible for the job, but no one more 544 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: so than Nixon. And I feel like Nixon is somebody 545 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: who if only he had a friend, if only he 546 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: had a counselor if only he had someone who said 547 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: to him, don't do this. I mean, you have a 548 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: chance to become I'm not gonna see a great president. 549 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: Because it was a very turbulent time because Vietnam is 550 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: the anti communist thing overdone if you will. Everybody knew 551 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: if you study Vietnam and college that they were not 552 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: a Sino based or Russo based communist satellite they were 553 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: like fuck you to the Chinese and fuck you to 554 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: the Russia. They wanted to be left alone. They wanted 555 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: to be their own independent tree, and they would take 556 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: from different people to fight the United States, which was 557 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: a very wealthy country at that time, and we were 558 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 1: doing the whole guns and butter thing which would later 559 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: come back to haunt us by spending trillions of dollars 560 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: to fight a war halfway around blah blah blah, all 561 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: things we know about Vietnam and the kind of thumbnail way. 562 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: But I do believe that Nixon is somebody who if 563 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: he only had an advisor that really had his heart, 564 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: he could have become a very good president. Do you agree? 565 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: I totally agree. And again a dozen years ago I 566 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: developed this contrarian view of Nixon as this reading about 567 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: what he had done and allowed to be done um 568 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: domestically that we talked about earlier. I mean, between that 569 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: and ending the war in Vietnam, if you'd done it 570 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: more expeditiously and hadn't let the Pentagon papers and everything 571 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: else throw him off the rails and go go nuts, 572 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: and then China in the whole Union, yeah, I think 573 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: he would have been remembered as this unlikable guy he was, 574 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: but as a really really good president. Absolutely are think 575 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: eight years in the White House would have helped him 576 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: erase the image unlikable guy that he was. Well, I 577 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, he was such an un Californian, 578 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: Californian and a deeply unlikable tip shoes on the beach. 579 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: I was took exactly, not a natural politician, so beloved 580 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: never but he said he was gonna in the war 581 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: he did, and look at all this other stuff he did, 582 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: and look at China. No, he would be today, absent 583 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: Watergate and absent all the Vietnam craziness that I didn't 584 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: really realize before doing this show led directly to Watergate, 585 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: he would be not in the bottom five or ten, 586 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: he be in the top five or ten. Best selling 587 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: author Kurt Anderson, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a 588 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow here's the thing on 589 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 590 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. When we come back, Kurt Anderson talks 591 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: about how Nixon became fixated on winning over protesters at home. 592 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 593 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: In the early morning of May, just days after four 594 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: students were killed at Kent State University, Nixon went to 595 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: the Lincoln Memorial to talk to protesters himself at five am. 596 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: He recorded the experience on a dictaphone, which is memorialized 597 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: in Kurt Anderson's podcast, Nixon at War. I walked over 598 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: to a group of them, walked up to them, and 599 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: your hands. They were not unfriendly, as a matter of fact, 600 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: they sad, of course, quite surprised. As one of the 601 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: protesters said afterward, it was so freaky because I have 602 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: tried to explain it. Michaels in Vietnam were the same 603 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: as there is to stop the children and the war, 604 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: to bring peace. Our goal was not to get into 605 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: Cambo again by what we were doing, but to get 606 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: out of Vietnam. There's need to be wished. They did 607 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: not respond. I hope that they're hatred of the war, 608 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: WHI try could well understand would not turn into a 609 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: bitter hatred of our whole system, our country and everything. 610 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: And it stood for I said, I know you, probably 611 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: most of you think I'm an s op, but I 612 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: want you to know that I understand just how you feel. 613 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson says Nixon's frustration was that his plan to 614 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: draw down US troops while training the South Vietnamese just 615 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: wasn't working. Nixon did start vietnamizing the war pretty rapidly 616 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: and significantly, which means for our listeners, which means saying, hey, 617 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: this is not our war to win the South Vietnamese, 618 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: the non communist southern half of this country that was 619 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: divided after the French occupation failed in the nineteen fifties 620 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: between the North who became communists, in the South, who, 621 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: in the view of the communists, became the puppet of 622 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: the United States. So Nixon is is elected to in 623 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: the war, and he begins reducing the draft. First year 624 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: was drawing not very many truths, but then more and more. 625 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: We had five and fifty thousand when he was elected, 626 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: and as many as five hundred dying a week, and 627 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,439 Speaker 1: six thousand boys my brother's age and even my age 628 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: almost being drafted every week. And he brought all that 629 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: down because he understood that was not politically tenable and 630 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: it was for better or worse, all about politics for him. 631 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: If I can end the draft and reduce the number 632 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: of Americans killed. He knew it would not country at 633 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: doubts it would not be a problem for him anymore. 634 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: And so his approval ratings for how he was handling 635 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: Vietnam stayed high for the almost the whole time, and 636 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: he went up and down, and he responded by giving 637 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: speeches and announcing further reductions in the draft and everything else. 638 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: So vietnamization and was saying, Hey, South Vietnam, it's on you. 639 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: We're getting out of here. We're not getting out here immediately, 640 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: but we're getting out of here, and therefore you will 641 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: be fighting your own war against your North Vietnamese brothers. 642 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: During the time that you did this, and you had 643 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: mentioned getting into the weeds quote unquote and the research. 644 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: What was something that surprised you that you found out? Well, 645 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,959 Speaker 1: I mean not so much facts, although this in anal story. 646 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: I had heard of her, maybe, but I knew nothing 647 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: about that. And it was interesting because he had covered 648 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: it up and then and then the Nixon Nights to 649 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: this day, the Nixon Library still so no, no, no, 650 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: that's not don't even pay attention to that. Don't look 651 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: in those files, paying no attention to that woman in 652 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: the channel dress in the corner well exactly, So that 653 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: was a kind of surprise to me. But these moments 654 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: on the tape, listening to the tapes gave me a 655 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: sense of their humanity or in humanity that I just 656 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: didn't have before that I just reading you just don't 657 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: I didn't get as much as hearing them talking admitting 658 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: we're screwed, or laughing about massacres. All those things were 659 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: just in the sense that I now feel as though 660 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: I was there with these guys as they were running 661 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: their horror show. So not so much facts, although I 662 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: had heard, because it's well known about this visit of 663 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: Nixon's at five am to hang with the protesters at 664 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: the Lincoln Memorial, which is an amazing scene, and I 665 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: think we did pretty good justice to it. But I 666 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: never knew the thing that he didn't did at dawn 667 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: and went to the empty capital alone and sat in 668 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: his old chair where Representative Nixon sat. And then as 669 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: they're leaving, going through the statuary hall in the middle 670 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: of the Capitol, there's this black woman mopping the floor 671 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: at six am in the morning, and he goes over 672 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: to her and says, you know, my mother was a saint. 673 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: You remind me of my mother. You'd be a saint too. 674 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it's this crazy scene. So so the details 675 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: throughout of how they sound, how they interact, his his craziness. 676 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: When Daniel Alsberg appears and arrested and admits you, I'm 677 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,919 Speaker 1: the Pentagon papers leaker, that he couldn't get Alger Hiss 678 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: out of his mind. What happened. He was a guy 679 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: who works in the State Department as a young man 680 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: in the in the nineteen thirties and into the forties, 681 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 1: and then ran a nonprofit, was a big liberal guy, 682 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: had been a Communist, as so many people had in 683 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, and it was alleged and perhaps maybe 684 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: probably true, had given papers, not atomic secrets or anything, 685 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: but had dealt with the Soviets. And and then that 686 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: was I put it in a pumpkin. That was part 687 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: of the pumpkin thing. And that was that became a 688 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: thing in fifty when Richard Dixon was fresh to the 689 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: house and Richard Nixon rode that to prominence. Really the persecution, prosecution, 690 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: call it what you will. Of Aldre was along with 691 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: Jagar Hoover's help, was how Nixon became famous. Mr Anti 692 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: communist who wasn't a nut like Joe McCarthy, and that 693 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: was his beginning of his queer So twenty years later, 694 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: when there's this leak of the Pentagon papers, wholly different thing. 695 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: It's not about a Cold War, it's about this actual 696 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: war we're fighting, and it's all it's so different, but 697 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: he sees it as just the same. It's another pinko 698 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: guy and he's Jewish to boot doing this bad thing, 699 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: and all the newspapers are not only supporting him, they're 700 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: printing it. So to him it was just it's it's 701 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: aldre Hess all over again. It's communists against me all 702 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: over again. It's the liberal elite all over again. And 703 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: he kind of lost it. The thing that was surprising 704 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: to me, even though it's silly, was I couldn't believe 705 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: in Watts said when he was going to resign that 706 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: he got up and took a swing at a kissinger. Myself, 707 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: I didn't think men had that kind of passion in 708 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: that white Well. William Watts, he was the kind of 709 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: administrator of the National Security Council, so he was an 710 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 1: important guy. He made sure the trains ran on time 711 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: in the National Security Council which Nixon and Kissinger had 712 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: made more powerful than it had ever been, of concentrating 713 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: all the national security, foreign policy decision making, policy making 714 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: in the White House, while was the guy that Kissinger 715 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: had personally hired and finally got too much for him, 716 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: as it did for other liberal ivy legal elitist that 717 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: Kissinger had hired. And he's quit and yeah, took a 718 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: swing at him, and then Hague al Hague told him 719 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: right after that you can't quit. Your commander of chief 720 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: is giving an order. He said, well, I did, General Haig, 721 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: and as he says, and that was the end of 722 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: my career in government. I mean, I'm of the belief 723 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: that we've never recovered from the Vietnam War. Did that 724 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 1: take hold of you while you're doing this work about 725 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: just the kind of suffocating tragedy that was Vietnam Absolutely, 726 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: and how it combined under Richard Nixon with Watergate and 727 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: all of the the undermining of the rule of law, 728 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: of decency and everything else into one horrible explosive thing 729 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: that began all of the things that we haven't recovered from. 730 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: And the way Nixon used Vietnam and used the countercultural 731 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: moment at the time and used all these things at 732 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: the time politically to make the this this fissure that 733 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 1: are broken up between the hard hats and the hippies 734 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: and all that he turned into this unhealable wound, and 735 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: this fisher became the chasm that Donald Trump, in his 736 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: way has been still exploiting, is still exploiting between the 737 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: regular folks and the working class guys and these liberals 738 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: and these professors and these newspaper people, and turned into 739 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: this permanent wound that we have never recovered from. And 740 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: also the war powers that comes in three during Nixon's 741 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: second term, which has been flouted by Democrats and Republicans 742 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: since we've learned nothing about that, which is, if we're 743 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: going to invest all this power into a commander in 744 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: chief and an executive without any of the advising instead 745 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: of the Congress. It was, among other things, the time 746 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: when we still believed we hadn't had this happen yet, 747 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: right President's wage war, and here was a president, the 748 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: third president, to wage this particular war. We didn't know 749 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: how to stop that or control that that This was 750 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: a whole new kind of war. So I don't want 751 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: to excuse Congress's ineffectual exercise of power in the instance, 752 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: but they didn't fell down on the job. Look at 753 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 1: the rock, I mean fell down on the job again. 754 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: And the kind of expansive authorization of war that happened 755 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand one. But evil geniuses, fantasy Land, your 756 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: last couple of books, many books prior to that, and 757 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: again you I'm always she lacking you and laddering you 758 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: all the time, but but effortlessly. No. Let's quote Nixon 759 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,439 Speaker 1: in his resignation speech to the staff. When he turns, 760 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: everybody says, this is not the most elegant house, but 761 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,839 Speaker 1: he's the best house because that has a heart. He says, 762 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: that's great speech. And then he said, we don't say goodbye. 763 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: The French have award for it. Or of war, he says, 764 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: Or of war to you. Kart Anderson, our revoir to 765 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: you as well. Kurt Anderson, host of a new podcast 766 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: called Nixon at War. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. 767 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: Is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced 768 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue and Zack McNeice. Our engineer 769 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: is Frank Imperial.