1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff, a production of iHeart Radio, Hey 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: brain Stuff. Lauren Bogabam here. Godzilla has remarkable staying power. 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Movies about giant monsters were a dime a dozen back 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. Yet while atomic aged classics like 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: The Giant Claw or The Beast from twenty Thousand Fathoms 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: never garnered any sequels, Godzilla forged on. The Kaiju made 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: his cinematic debut in nineteen fifty four, and since then 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: he starred in more than thirty films spanning six and 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: a half decades, with his newest debuting in March of 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: The character's origin story keeps getting rewritten. He's usually said 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: to be an irradiated beast of prehistoric origins, but the 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: specifics vary from movie to movie. One thing that's remained consistent, however, 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: is Godzilla's physical toughness. On screen, the Behemoth is practically invincible, 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: But have you ever wondered how or if a beast 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: with Godzilla's dimensions would function in real life? And what 16 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: kind of animal would Godzilla be? Anyway? Before the article 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: this episode is based on How Stuff Works, spoke with 18 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: Kenneth Carpenter, now a retired paleontologist who was director of 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: the Utah State University Eastern Prehistoric Museum when how Stuff 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: Works spoke with him via email in and he took 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: a stab at that second question in essay that he 22 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: wrote for the official Godzilla compendium. Traditionally, the monster has 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: been identified as a therapod dinosaur. All carnivorous dinos like, 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: for example, Tyrannosaurus rex are classified as therapods sore birds. Now, 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: Godzilla's skull looks short and blunt for a theopod. He 26 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: also tends to be depicted with four fingers per hand, 27 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: and he's got multiple rows of bony vertically oriented plates 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: running down his back and tail. Using these features, Carpenter 29 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: tentatively assigned Godzilla to Saratosauria, a primitive theropods subgroup. A 30 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: few Saradasaurians had backs like Godzilla's studied with osteoderms, that is, 31 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: bony deposits embedded in the skin, and certain species had 32 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: shortened skulls to boot. And there was another key feature 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: that helped the Saratosaurians stand out. A Carpenter explained that 34 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: while some therapods had three, two or even one fingered, 35 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: four limbs. The more primitive subgroups, like the Saratosaurians, had 36 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: four or more digits per hand. Hostaff Works also spoke 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: by email with Victoria Arbor, an armored dinosaur expert who's 38 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: the curator of Paleontology at the Royal British Columbia Museum. 39 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: In blog post, Arbor made the case that the King 40 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: of the Monsters might not be a dinosaur at all. 41 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: Maybe he's got more in common with crocodiles. Crocs, alligators 42 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: and their prehistoric kin form a reptilian clade called the 43 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: studists suchian. Arbor noted that osteoderms and four fingered hands 44 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: are more commonly seen in pseudosoukians than they are in 45 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: theory pods, so perhaps Godzilla belongs to the former group. 46 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: Speaking of digits, let's check out Godzilla's feet. In most 47 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: of the original Japanese movies, the big guy has a 48 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: plant a grade stance that means he walks flat on 49 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: his feet like humans. Conversely, digitigrade animals such as dogs 50 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: will walk on their toes while keeping their heels off 51 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: the ground. No known dinosaur, theopod or otherwise was similarly 52 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: flat footed, Barbora said, living crocodilomorphs are PLANTI grade, but 53 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: the jury is still out on whether or not all 54 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: pseudosuchians were plant A grade, especially those that were bipeedle. However, 55 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: for the American made movie Godzilla's feet underwent a dramatic redesign. 56 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: Barbora said, I think you could make the argument that 57 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: Godzilla has hortiselike feet, and many tortoises are also digital 58 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: grade in a manner similar to elephants, with a large 59 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: heel pad supporting upright toes. She also pointed out that 60 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: while quote almost all bipedal dinosaurs only had three weight 61 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: bearing digits per foot, this version of Godzilla keeps quote 62 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: at least four toes on the ground. Truly huge land 63 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: animals such as the long necked dinosaurs, have column shaped 64 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: digital grade feet. Those limbs are really efficient. It's supporting 65 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: massive body weights, and so if Godzilla was a real creature, 66 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: would probably expect him to have Digital grade hind limbs, 67 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: even though study claimed plant to grade animals can swing 68 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: their arms more forcefully in combat, and Godzilla sure loves combat. 69 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: But it's doubtful that Godzilla could physically walk on dry 70 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: land no matter what his feet looked like Hastaff Works, 71 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: also spoke via email with paleontologist Donald Anderson. He said 72 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: getting Godzilla to stand upright and still would be a 73 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: complete nonstarter. Its bones would not be able to support 74 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: its body weight, and its heart would be unable to 75 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: pump blood to the head. This is mostly due to 76 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: what's called the square cube law. But when you scale 77 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: an object up, its mass increases more sharply than its 78 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: surface area. Double the height, weight and length of a 79 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: wooden cube, and you'll also have made the thing eight 80 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: times heavier than it was before. But how would Godzilla 81 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: fare underwater? Henderson works at Canada's Royal Terrell Museum and 82 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: tackles physics related questions about extinct animals. In he used 83 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: computer modeling to test the hypothesis that Spinosaurus, a therapod 84 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: with a large sail on its back, was built for swimming. 85 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: He found that the deep overall body shape of this 86 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: fin backed animal would have made the dinosaur prone to 87 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: tipping over as it swam. So would Godzilla's osteoderms put 88 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: him at the same risk. Henderson doesn't think so, by 89 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: his calculations. The back plates on Stegosaurus Jurassic herbivore who 90 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: influenced Godzilla's design, only represented sevent of that dinosaurs overall 91 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: body mass. Meanwhile, Godzilla's plates appear to make up an 92 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: even smaller fraction of the kaiju's total mass, and so 93 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: Henderson suspects they wouldn't cause him to tip over during swimming. Still, 94 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: as a marine animal, Godzilla would face plenty of other problems. 95 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: The seagoing creatures tend to be streamlined. With his jagged 96 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: osteoderms and chunky legs, Godzilla is anything but Therefore, he 97 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: had need to expend lots of extra energy in order 98 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: to propel himself through the water. Henderson explained the best 99 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: option for Godzilla to swim would be to undulate its 100 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: body and tail to produce waves that travel down the body. 101 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: To think of how crocodiles and salamanders swim. When they 102 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: want to move quickly, they fold their arms and legs 103 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: close to the body and use sideways motions to push 104 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: back against the water and get a forward thrust. And 105 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: by the way, the semi aquatic behavior was and still 106 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: is widespread among the Pseudosyukians. On the other hand, there's 107 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: no proof that any non bird therapod was habitually amphibious, 108 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: and yet some of them did take the occasional dip. 109 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: In Utah, there's a series of a hundred ninety million 110 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: year old tracks made by therapods whose toes barely scraped 111 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: the ground as they swam along. For his part, Carpenter 112 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: disagrees with the pseudosuchian identity argument, since therapods could clearly swim. 113 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: He thinks godzillas see going ways don't preclude the monster 114 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: from being a bona fide dinosaur. Furthermore, as we've seen 115 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: the Kaiju does share a lot of traits with the seratosaurians. 116 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: If he's not a member of that group, then his 117 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: ancestors probably evolved all of those features independently. This scenario 118 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: is certainly plausible's a phenomenon called convergent evolution. But Carpenter 119 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: thinks the similarities between Godzilla and therapod dinos are probably 120 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: too numerous to be coincidental. The Carpenter said, we already 121 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: know that doctor Yamine, a character from the movie, declared 122 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: the original Godzilla a dinosaur, and since he was on site, 123 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: I'll take his word. Today's episode is based on the 124 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: article is Godzilla a Dinosaur? On how stuff works dot 125 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: Com written by Mark Mancini. Brain Stuff is production of 126 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and partnership with how stuff works dot Com, 127 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: and it's produced by Tyler Clang. Four more podcasts my 128 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 129 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.