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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, another episode of The Hunting Collective. I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: excited about this one. It's another version of Candian Vegetables.

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Speaker 1: We get real ridiculous and real damn silly and the

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Speaker 1: opening segment and then we have a real deep dive

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Speaker 1: discussion to follow, so hopefully you're getting to enjoy that pattern.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna start out with the the th A C

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Speaker 1: Top Fives, and that's because we're bored. It's summertime. We

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Speaker 1: got nothing else to do, so we just picked five

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Speaker 1: four topics and picked the top five things. Sitting in

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Speaker 1: to help me with that was Sam Sohol, the public

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Speaker 1: Land bus guy, Spencer new Hearth Honey editor here at

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Speaker 1: Meat Eater, Maggie Smith from our production team, and Fill

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Speaker 1: the engineer as always, and by the way, thanks for

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Speaker 1: all the emails and the keep film movement that's still

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Speaker 1: going on. Um. And after the Top Fives, which were

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Speaker 1: was pretty fun, we get into a discussion on human

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Speaker 1: evolution with William von Hippel. And William is a professor

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Speaker 1: of psychology at the University of Queenland's down there in Australia.

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Speaker 1: He's got a lot of interesting things to say. A

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Speaker 1: book called The Social leap that helps who helps to

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Speaker 1: describe who we are, where we come from, and even

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Speaker 1: what makes us happy. So stick around for all that.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, we're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: a little bit of First Light Nemo collection. This is

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Speaker 1: something that just came out from the first Light team

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Speaker 1: and they partnered up with Nemo, who makes lots of

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Speaker 1: cool outdoor gear to put together collection that includes tents,

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Speaker 1: sleeping bags, field blankets, chairs, all kinds of stuff pretty

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Speaker 1: much anything you can think of in regards to going outside,

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Speaker 1: sleeping comfortably or sitting comfortably. Um, I'm looking at that

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Speaker 1: Nemo Endurance tent that they have with with sick first

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Speaker 1: Light patterns. You can go to first Light dot com

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Speaker 1: and look at that collection. It's on their homepage right now.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it's that First Light Times

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Speaker 1: Nemo collection at first Light dot com, So check it

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Speaker 1: out there. Without further ado, episode numbers seventy. I guess

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Speaker 1: I grew up on an older road. A bat'll do

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Speaker 1: the meadals. I always did what I've told until I

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Speaker 1: found out that my brand new close the games that

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Speaker 1: can hand from the rich kids next door. And I

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Speaker 1: grew up baths, I guess I grew up me. There

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Speaker 1: are a thousand things inside of my head I wish

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Speaker 1: I ain't seen, and now I just wanted through a

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Speaker 1: real bad dream or being a like I'm coming a

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Speaker 1: part of the seams. But thank you Jack Daniels. Oh

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Speaker 1: hey everybody, and welcome to episode seventy two of The

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Speaker 1: Hunting Collective and once again and Ben O'Brien, and today

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have a bit of a round table, a

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Speaker 1: round table discussion, probably one of the more important round

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Speaker 1: tables discussion we've ever had. And we've just in the

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Speaker 1: last two podcasts discussed for hours and hours, veganism, animal rights,

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Speaker 1: species is um, we discussed public and private lands, and

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Speaker 1: now we're gonna discuss things way more important than that.

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Speaker 1: And this is our summertime. It's the end of July, right, Maggie,

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Speaker 1: the end of July. We've had a great July. Do

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Speaker 1: you have a good July, Maggie. It's been fantastic. What

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Speaker 1: ald you do. I've done a lot of stuff. I've

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Speaker 1: gotten a fly fishing, I'm learning how to fly fish,

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Speaker 1: been paddleboarding, the tone Running up Baldy, the crew Running

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Speaker 1: up Baldy with the crew check that. What's your Instagram

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Speaker 1: handle at the Loan Loan. At the Loan Loan, that's

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Speaker 1: good content. So look up at the Loan Loan. What

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Speaker 1: have you been doing in July? There? Spencer enjoying the

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Speaker 1: Montana Weather music kicks ass. It does kick ass way nice.

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Speaker 1: I was just down in Salt Lake this weekend and

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Speaker 1: it was like a hundred degrees all weekend and I

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Speaker 1: forgot that some parts of the country are like that,

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Speaker 1: and I was looking at my phone. I saw it

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Speaker 1: was like seventy eight and I'm like, oh, it's perfect here.

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Speaker 1: Everybody just and if you go, if you follow at

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Speaker 1: the Loan Loan, which you should do, you'll see a

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Speaker 1: lot of real good like Montana living content over there.

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Speaker 1: It's a good time. So I'd like to add at

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Speaker 1: least a thousand followers to at the Loan Loan. So please,

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Speaker 1: if you're gonna do anything for me this podcast, get

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Speaker 1: over there. Thanks Sam, Sam's got enough. You've got enough followers.

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Speaker 1: But Sam, Soholtz here, I am here. He drove the

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Speaker 1: bus into the Mediator parking lot. I think he parked

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Speaker 1: it in the handicap zone. No, lie, I parked it

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Speaker 1: behind a handicaps so God forbid in the hand to

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Speaker 1: gif you want to back out of their spot? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's probably not quite legal, but it's hard to

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Speaker 1: find a tow truck that big in such a short

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Speaker 1: times fan, So I'll be alright. The best they're gonna

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Speaker 1: do was like fence it in. Yeah, that would be

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Speaker 1: and then that would just found the problem. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: just back out. How was your July, sam My? July

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Speaker 1: has been busy. I have been just driving the bus

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Speaker 1: around a lot. So celebrate Fourth of July back in

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Speaker 1: South Dakota and then flew out to Colorado, picked up

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Speaker 1: the bus, drove to Park City, and then did a

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Speaker 1: four day camping trip up to Big Skuy for the

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Speaker 1: next Total Archery Challenge. And now I'm here. Wow, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I gotta check out this buss. You never been the bus?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, Phil, have you ever been in the bus?

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what bus you're referring to. Unbelievable,

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Speaker 1: Phil is it's problematic. I can't fill around this never

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Speaker 1: knows what's going on. You tell me you like a

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Speaker 1: different perspectives here on the hunting collective. That's a lie. No,

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Speaker 1: I've been telling myself that to make me feel better.

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Speaker 1: So that's a lie. I don't even know what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing anymore. So Phil, what you've been doing July, You've

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Speaker 1: you've been become a recurring guest on the Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: That's changed your life. There's a movement a foot to

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Speaker 1: keep Phil and I can't leave the house anymore. It's

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Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah. Yeah, I've been trying to get out

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Speaker 1: where I can do in some hikes here and there.

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Speaker 1: I've got a one year old, so it's a little

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Speaker 1: difficult to that'll stop it. Yeah, that'll stop him trying trying.

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Speaker 1: Now you're doing good, thanks, Yeah, I mean this is

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Speaker 1: You've five straight Hunting Collective episodes for you, Phil, that's

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Speaker 1: a streak. I'm real proud of you. Man. I think

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Speaker 1: we need to mention your terror of a two year

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Speaker 1: old just completely ripping up his knee and elbow yesterday,

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Speaker 1: the total Archery challenge yesterday, and my my on James

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Speaker 1: is a bit. He's he's getting his feet under him,

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Speaker 1: like his whole body is just at this point just

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Speaker 1: basically scar tissue. Like he rides his bike, he gets

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Speaker 1: on his jeep, he just does things and then falls

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Speaker 1: off the things and then cries for a minute, and

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Speaker 1: then we have a thing. I'm like say I'm tough,

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Speaker 1: and then when he's done, I'm tough and then runs

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Speaker 1: I'm tough and start running and then like run into

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Speaker 1: a tree or something. That's a problem. But yesterday at

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Speaker 1: the Total Archery Challenge, Sam's buss was there, of course,

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Speaker 1: and Sam has thank god, had some band aids because

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Speaker 1: James got into the bus, beat the horn very loudly

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Speaker 1: to alert everyone to hit James's presence, ran out of

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Speaker 1: the bus, fell down, ripped his knee open, led over

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Speaker 1: all ever me and everybody else. Sam. Sam was nice

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Speaker 1: enough to have a band aid to save the day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was off of the bus, so finally it was

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Speaker 1: a thirty foot radius of the bus. Bus gave him

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Speaker 1: that energy. It's possible. But then later on, yeah, then

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Speaker 1: later on he was in the YETI booth and he

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Speaker 1: like running around a corner and fell and ripped up

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Speaker 1: both his elbows. So I had to go back to

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Speaker 1: the bus a second time. I'd be like, hey, Sam,

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Speaker 1: remember when you give me that one and I need

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Speaker 1: at least two more. You might need to replenish your style.

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Speaker 1: I need to go shopping. You need to have like

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Speaker 1: a medical kit. Yeah, so for for the listeners and

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Speaker 1: definitely not me. Can we explain what this bus is? Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: thanks Phil, Yeah, we get we'll get back control aby

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Speaker 1: show Phil, but yes please. So the public Land Bus

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Speaker 1: has been a project over the last two years. I

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Speaker 1: took an old school bus, converted it into my rolling

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Speaker 1: hunting camper basically, and I've been traveling for two years

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Speaker 1: and spending time on public lands all over the place

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Speaker 1: and basically showcasing the experiences that people can have on

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Speaker 1: those lands, raising awareness about public land issues, helping people

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Speaker 1: get educated about conservation. Phil. Yeah, literally a school bus.

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Speaker 1: This is awesome. It's a Bluebirds school of the conversion.

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Speaker 1: So the initial build was about two I got an idea, Hey, yeah,

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Speaker 1: why don't you give all the content to Maggie to

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Speaker 1: post on at the Loan Loon and people could find

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Speaker 1: it there. Sure air drop everything. I just did. Two

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Speaker 1: weeks I did call at the Loan Loan for all

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Speaker 1: Sam's bus continued. Uh no, that's pretty much. It been

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Speaker 1: traveling for two years, and then my brother and I

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Speaker 1: started an apparel company to go along with it, and

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Speaker 1: then five yeah, five dollars from every single item we

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Speaker 1: sell goes directly back to conservation organizations. Oh that's wonderful. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: public land tease, yes, right, drs A big check to somebody,

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Speaker 1: right yeah, just uh Friday night, we wrote a check

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Speaker 1: to our Rocky Mountain Ook Foundation for five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: That went to real really open up. Yeah it just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I went to help with the Falls Creek project they're

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Speaker 1: they're doing, which is purchasing an easement basically that opens

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Speaker 1: up twenty six tho acres of public land. Unbelievable. Wow,

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Speaker 1: well done, saying proud of you, thank you, um, thank you.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get to the interview portion of this.

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Speaker 1: Know this on this episode is Dr William von Hipple

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Speaker 1: and he's Uh, I couldn't remember his name last time,

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Speaker 1: Phil Well to help you remember it rhymes. That's how

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Speaker 1: I was, like, what's his last name? Nipple? I asked

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Speaker 1: you if I should cut that out and he said nope,

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Speaker 1: No one's in there or off the rails. But William

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Speaker 1: von Hipple is coming up. He's a human evolutionary biologist

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Speaker 1: that's gonna get real serious during that conversation about like

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Speaker 1: the origins of humanity and how we became who we

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Speaker 1: are through hunting and things of that nature and what

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Speaker 1: it means to us today. It's really it's really deep,

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Speaker 1: very well thought out portion of the podcast. Before we

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Speaker 1: get to that, we're gonna do something that's not either

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Speaker 1: one of those things. Um, we're gonna we're gonna do

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Speaker 1: top fives. We're gonna do some real important top fives.

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Speaker 1: And we just happen to have five people here are

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Speaker 1: top fives, Um, and we haven't really researched this. We're

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Speaker 1: just gonna rip it off and this is These are

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Speaker 1: important top fives and we're gonna put them out on

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Speaker 1: the internet so people can vote on the top five.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're gonna do. Okay, so don't say anything

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Speaker 1: real stupid and you want will lose. All right? The

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Speaker 1: first one, which is the first one, should we do Phil,

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Speaker 1: let's start out with with with with the songs. Songs

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Speaker 1: He's doing tops songs to get you fired up for

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Speaker 1: a day. We'll just say for a day outside. So

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Speaker 1: we keep it, Yeah, we keep it. Germine, Sam oh Man,

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Speaker 1: I had one in mind because I listened to it

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Speaker 1: almost every time I start a road trip with the bus.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do that one h d m x

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Speaker 1: X go and give it to you starting off strong,

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Speaker 1: you want to give us one one line from I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna bark X going to give it to you.

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Speaker 1: You really gotta get down there to yeah, yeah, hey Phil.

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Speaker 1: Maybe all the ones that people name you try to

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Speaker 1: sing them. I'm sure there's a copyright thing that seconds. Dude,

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Speaker 1: I've done that before the podcast. Mati was here. Last

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Speaker 1: time we did the fashion thing. We didn't get suited

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Speaker 1: for that, so we're still going, Okay, that's a good

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Speaker 1: X gonna give it to you from d m X Spencer,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really into like hard rock or white powdery substances.

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Speaker 1: But Buck Cherry lit up, whoa really good choice. Get

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Speaker 1: really excited. So you want to try to give us

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Speaker 1: a line from that? So I have I've heard Buck Cherry.

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Speaker 1: I I don't know what that song is. I can

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Speaker 1: do the DMX one though. We do two verses from that.

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Speaker 1: Then it's it isn't Buck Cherry. It's like southern. It's

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Speaker 1: like southern hard rock, isn't it mm hmm. Buck Cherry's

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Speaker 1: like modern like hard rock. Thing is something you got

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Speaker 1: a good voice, Sarah Spencer, good low Okay, Maggie, I

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Speaker 1: have like three I can't well currently, I like truth

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Speaker 1: Shirts by Lizzo, and then I like the our what

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Speaker 1: is It Bombie by The Cranberries, and then damn it

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Speaker 1: feels good to be a gangster. I'm gonna go with

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Speaker 1: that one. Do you like the new rock version of Zombie?

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Speaker 1: Have you heard it? Yes? I don't. I really like

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Speaker 1: the old school Yes I've heard it. No it's terrible. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I don't like. Okay, Phil, what do you got? I

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Speaker 1: mean this is probably like the ultimate middle class white

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Speaker 1: boy answer, but I usually go for the killers. Mr

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Speaker 1: Bratt said, it's a little disappointing. You'll do better on

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Speaker 1: the next list. We'll see about that. Do you ever

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Speaker 1: listen to this song? I'm about to play beat low? Yes,

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Speaker 1: just take him on and take a quick break from

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Speaker 1: the show. So listen to this song is actually eleven

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Speaker 1: twelve minutes long. Oh my goodness, So that will get

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Speaker 1: you in trouble with copyright. Yeah, as long as we

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Speaker 1: talk over it and the algaby algorithms can't pick it up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we do. The rest of the rest of the twelve

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Speaker 1: minutes of song, he's not still not even singing. No, no,

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Speaker 1: let's skip ten minutes ahead. Oh, here he comes. Nope.

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Speaker 1: I think it's like a three minute intro. This is

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Speaker 1: the one. I mean, this is it. This is the winner.

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Speaker 1: This should be an ugly playlist we'd have put together. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's like buck Cherry. It's very eclectic. We should, like

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Speaker 1: you should offer playlists to people. We should put them together.

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Speaker 1: Many people can tune in to a mediator Spotify accounts.

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Speaker 1: One of those songs. Don't have to know the words,

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Speaker 1: it's just that it's like the joke about early nineties music. Yep,

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Speaker 1: there it is. All right, that's a top five. Okay,

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Speaker 1: vote for your favorite somewhere. Go oh you know what

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Speaker 1: we do? Go to the loan loontag? All right, Uh,

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Speaker 1: what's the next film? Uh? Let's do um tree stands snacks?

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Speaker 1: Because I am curious because I have no do I

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Speaker 1: need to start again or I get do I to end?

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Speaker 1: You're gonna end because I feel like you're My clothes

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Speaker 1: are on this same Uh, Spencer, You're also have a

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Speaker 1: lot of knowledge, Phil go ahead and give us a

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Speaker 1: if you were in it. Just imagine you've never been

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Speaker 1: in a tree. Have you ever been in a tree? Nope?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna you're sat in the tree for never. Let's

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Speaker 1: say instead of tree stand snacks, I'm gonna say top

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Speaker 1: Little League snacks for Phil Taylor when he was nine

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Speaker 1: years old. Yeah, I gotta go for a classic. He

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Speaker 1: had a Capri son and a chewy bar and maybe

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Speaker 1: some gushers. If it's a special day, how's like it?

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Speaker 1: How would that work? I like it? That's a bad

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Speaker 1: answer for the there's no bad answer. Okay, cool, Maggie. Um,

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Speaker 1: since I've never been in a tree stand either, you

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Speaker 1: sat in a tree for a whole day? Right, Okay, gosh,

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Speaker 1: that's only something that hunters do, apparently normal. I trail

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Speaker 1: run though, so I'll give it my trail run secrets.

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Speaker 1: I like to eat pickles and drink pickle juice when

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Speaker 1: I've gone my race or doing a long trailer race. Well,

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Speaker 1: I usually have people hand them to me. It's a

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Speaker 1: really good hand off. You know. Here's some pickles I

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Speaker 1: wish you like. I'm gonna get you some sort of

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Speaker 1: Fannie pack that's big. Oh. I have a vest and

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Speaker 1: I stuffed the pickles in the vest. It's a it's

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Speaker 1: a great pickles. Do you like juice? Has a lot

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Speaker 1: of electrolytes. Yeah, and a lot of salt pickles. I'm

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Speaker 1: really stuck on this pickle vest idea. Seriously, if you're

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Speaker 1: cramping pickle juice, all right, all right, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: just I'm just gonna go really easy. I'm gonna get

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Speaker 1: a real popular sour patch kids. Yeah, sour patch kids,

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Speaker 1: spencer apples and beef jerky like apples a grave because

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Speaker 1: no matter what the temperature is, you can eat an apple.

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Speaker 1: It was like, if you take a banana with you

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Speaker 1: and it gets below sixty degrees, it's a bad banana.

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Speaker 1: It's a great point. Apples are a little bit loud, though,

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Speaker 1: what about a banana vest? It would work functions? Can't

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Speaker 1: like push your arms against it very hard? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: any like oblong food could fit in a pickle vest

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Speaker 1: You can fit beef turkey in there too. Yeah, okay, Sam,

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Speaker 1: so I have to but um, I've started doing just

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Speaker 1: a little bit different tree stand snacks the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years. Um. But last year I did hot biscuits

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Speaker 1: and gravy in a Yeti bottle. So that was yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then if you really want to spice it up,

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Speaker 1: you bake pizza rolls, put those in the yetti bottle

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Speaker 1: and then have hot pizza roles in the tree. What's

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Speaker 1: the best pizza roles? At it? Tortino, Yeah, sponsor us, Tortino, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: come at us. Yeah, that has to cook those over

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Speaker 1: the fire for my kids. That was my camp fire

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Speaker 1: until I got in trouble for it because it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a real bagel does a piece of role will

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Speaker 1: stay good for you, So they do get slightly soggy,

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Speaker 1: but I've had like four hours later, nice and hot. Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The gravy was way better though. I made like sausage gravy,

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Speaker 1: put it in an eighteen ounce bottle with like the

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Speaker 1: chug cap or the chuggler as Remy calls it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh yeah. And then I just had the biscuits in

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Speaker 1: a like a zip block bagging and then I just

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Speaker 1: like was either taking a bite and then drinking the

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Speaker 1: gravy or porting it on top. Turkey hunting this year,

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Speaker 1: Mike and Mike and legit, I'll put that as my

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Speaker 1: second one. Yeah, Mike and Ikes horrible gold Bears. Like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of a snack guy. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: snacking anybody, Everybody get on that one. What's X Phil? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Wild game animals? Keep it in the from his top

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Speaker 1: game animal traits that you would like to have? Is

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Speaker 1: it's a kin to like superhero powers? Uh flight. That

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Speaker 1: ends the discussion right there. I mean I want to

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Speaker 1: say that's too easy. Sorry. What game animal can fly like? You?

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Speaker 1: Would would you have to have? Would you like quail

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Speaker 1: flight or turkey flight? I mean probably like duck flight

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Speaker 1: I think would be the best. That would probably be

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Speaker 1: the best. And at the end of this, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have a superhero built. Yes, oh yes, you want you

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Speaker 1: want to have a Mallard Ducks Mallard duck flight spencer.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna take turkey vision. They can see in the

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Speaker 1: UV light ring. Boy, they have incredible vision. So now

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Speaker 1: our guy can or woman can fly like a duck

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Speaker 1: see like a turkey. There we go. It's unbelievable. Mice

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Speaker 1: told me that when we were turkey hunting, and I

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Speaker 1: was just like mine block. Yeah, um, I want the

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Speaker 1: stealth of a cougar. Stealth of a cougar. Right, so now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can't see if we can see you, but we

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Speaker 1: can fly over there and eat. Okay, Phil, what what

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Speaker 1: game animal has has like the best hearing. You have

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Speaker 1: to come up with it. So I'm not gonna tell

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Speaker 1: you the answer. Well, i'm gonna say something stupid. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be like they hearing of pheasant. Okay, we need

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Speaker 1: some kryptonite. I can't hear totally down. I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: with the jaw strength of a crop or not a

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Speaker 1: crack of an alligator. That all right, I put you down, Son.

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Speaker 1: That was out of left field. Hopefully that wins. All

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Speaker 1: gonna beat Phil. They're all they're all combined. They're all combined. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's just one character. Like we're flying, but we can't

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Speaker 1: hear anything. You can sneak up on stuff, but we

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Speaker 1: can't hear. Yeah, you can see you, we can't hear you. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's we good top top game an there's other one

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Speaker 1: you could use, like antalope speed, analope speed with longevity

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Speaker 1: and top speed. Yeah, aren't they the fastest animal movement America? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Maybe like a badger's digging ability. That'd be a good one.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna stick with. I'm gonna sick with the alligator.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to amenders, Phil? It was pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: I admire that you're sticking with it, Phil, that's perfect. Okay.

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Speaker 1: The last one, Phil, what is it? Top podcast guests

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Speaker 1: that Ben should have on the Hunting Collective? Living or dead?

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Speaker 1: We're dead, living or dead? I think the dead being impossible,

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Speaker 1: but of course, I mean I think one correct answer

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Speaker 1: is Teddy Roosevelt. Yeah. I was gonna say that something

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Speaker 1: pretty easy, but sorry, really softball on that one. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think you're being hard on Sam for just having

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Speaker 1: the best answers. It's like the power of flight, Phil,

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Speaker 1: give us a terrible answer. Go uh, Pablo Picasso. You

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Speaker 1: said terrible answer. You have like ear fetish he had.

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Speaker 1: Then he cut his Yeah, I got it perfect. Moving on,

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Speaker 1: let's Spencer another obvious one. Louis and Clark. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's a that's a real obvious one. Okay, Maggie,

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Speaker 1: this is heart it is John Muir, Oh nice one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go meet Loaf because then you could sing

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Speaker 1: the song. Yeah. Yeah, we could spend most of the

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Speaker 1: time just ripping out this clock he did. Like a

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Speaker 1: thirty minute podcast, you'd have eighteen minutes. Yea. Now give

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Speaker 1: all these superpowers to meet though. Oh yeah, I tie

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Speaker 1: it all together, all right, We're gonna put all these

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Speaker 1: polls up and you gotta vote and see who won.

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Speaker 1: Can we put them on the loan loan? Okay, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna put them on at the loan. You go at

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Speaker 1: the loon loan, and we're gonna when this podcast launches,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have all the polls up there to see

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Speaker 1: who one. So you're gonna bracketed out. Then well there's

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Speaker 1: only five of us. It's go somebody's gonna get to

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Speaker 1: buy in the first round. We're gonna move on, move on.

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Speaker 1: But now we have to move on to a real

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Speaker 1: serious conversation about human evolution. You guys, is there any

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Speaker 1: lists about like human evolution? Top moments that human evolution?

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Speaker 1: I should have done that. The agricultural revolution. I'm reading

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Speaker 1: a book about this right now. Actually, so it's funny

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Speaker 1: that that's your next guess Sapiens highly recommend it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the invention of gunpowder. Oh yeah, industrial revolution, the printing press,

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Speaker 1: fire fire. Sam always has the best answers that guy. Okay, Phil,

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Speaker 1: you're always my clothes or what what do you want

398
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Speaker 1: to what do you want to say before we get

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Speaker 1: into the interview. Uh, top moment and evolution. Um, i'd say,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Probably like the peak peak TV. We

401
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 1: get like Sopranos, Matt Man breaking bad peak TV. Perfect

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Speaker 1: terrible answer. Phil, All right, now we're gonna now we're

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Speaker 1: gonna go to uh, we're gonna transport all the way

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Speaker 1: to Australia where Dr William von Hippile is. We're here

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Speaker 1: in the studio. So this is a phone conversation, so um,

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00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: please be mindful of that when you're listening to it.

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Speaker 1: But it's a very enjoyable conversation. It's very serious. This

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Speaker 1: wasn't I hope you enjoyed both. Hey Bill, hey man,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing good? How are you doing? Sir?

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Speaker 1: This is a very rare uh podcast for us for

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Speaker 1: for a lot of different reasons, but we rarely do

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Speaker 1: interviews over the phone, um, But in this case, we

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Speaker 1: attempted a face to face it didn't work out. And

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Speaker 1: you are in Australia at current, so it's about four

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Speaker 1: o'clock our time here in Bosman. You're what eight am

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Speaker 1: down there? Eight am? Absolutely well, thanks for joining us. UM.

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Speaker 1: I want to learn that we got a lot to

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Speaker 1: learn a lot to cup uh here in this conversation.

419
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: But just start us off by, um, talking about your

420
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: your book. I want people to first know about your book,

421
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: and then we'll get into your history. But the social

422
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: leap tell us about the social leap. Sure. So I'm

423
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: a psychologist and my goal is to understand how people are.

424
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: And so I've been spending a lot of my career

425
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: just looking at running experiments and people that we are today.

426
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: And I've actually came to realize that in order to

427
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: properly understand people, I had to look into our past.

428
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: So I spent the last dozen or years I'm working

429
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: in anthropology and archaeology and all these other disciplines to

430
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: try to build together a picture of the last six

431
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: million years of our revolution, you know, around the time

432
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: that we left our two Panzee cousins. And so the

433
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: book is really about that. It's the first few chapters

434
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 1: covered the last six million years, and then it spends

435
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: the rest of the book I'm talking about the way

436
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: we are today, trying to understand things like leadership, innovation, happiness,

437
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: all that sort of business. Um, by looking at our

438
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: past and seeing how that shaped are the way we

439
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: are today. Yeah, it was really that second half the

440
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: book that began to strike me as to as impactful

441
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: in my own life and just kind of my understanding

442
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: of my place and time and UM as a hunter,

443
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,479
Speaker 1: I felt more connected to the thing that I do

444
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: after reading it. And it's not this book is not

445
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: about hunting and has some three lines and some parallels

446
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: to it. It's certainly UM is about more human characteristics

447
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: and functions of who we are as a species and

448
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: even as individuals. UM, but talk about how it might

449
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: be you know, we've we've discussed this a little bit

450
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: in the past, but how it might have three lines

451
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: to those of us who are my we would call

452
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: us those modern hunters. Yes, so the UM if you

453
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: look at the history of humanity early on, we weren't

454
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: really hunters. If anything, we were very rarely occasional hunters

455
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 1: like chopanzees are. When an opportunity to arises, typically if

456
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: there's monkeys nearby, UM, they'll try to hunt them. And

457
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: then I think that, you know, our moved to the savannah,

458
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: which I'm happy to talk about, led to us becoming

459
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: far from hunters, much more hunted, and it was actually

460
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 1: our efforts to protect ourselves from being hunted that led

461
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: us to eventually turn into the hunters that we are today.

462
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,719
Speaker 1: And I would say that probably for the last I

463
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: believe for the last three million years and certainly for

464
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: the last million and a half, UM, hunting has been

465
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: the primary way that we made a living. And so

466
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: I do think it's something that UM, that's you know, natural,

467
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: so to speak, that's very common for humans. That explains

468
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: a lot about the way we are today and UM

469
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: and the shape the way that we became human. So

470
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: it certainly plays an enormously important role in our revolutionary history. Yeah,

471
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: and sorry, you mentioned the movement to the Havanas to

472
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: the grasslands and how that kind of required a shift

473
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 1: from individualism to this new form of like collectivism as

474
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: you describe it. UM, talk about that that shift where

475
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: we were in time. I think we should properly put

476
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: ourselves and where we are in time, so give us

477
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: protective where we are as a species, and what in

478
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: how long ago this was and then kind of what

479
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: that event meant. Sure, so about thirty million years ago, uh,

480
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: the Great African Roost Valley that runs from up north

481
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: to the Red Sea all the way down to Mozambique,

482
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 1: UM started to get the formation started to really get

483
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: underway and what that is is the continent of Africa

484
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: is tearing in two pieces. You've got the Somali plate

485
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: this is moving off to the lower right, and then

486
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: you've got the rest of Africa moving off to the

487
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: upper left. And the consequence of that sort of tectonic

488
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: activity where the continent is tearing apart, is all sorts

489
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: of volcanism, you know, volcanoes forming, but also an upwelling

490
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: on the east side of Africa, so Ethiopia, Tanzania, Kenya,

491
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: uh smaller, all those areas are getting pressed up into

492
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: the air. And so you know Nairobi now sits at

493
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: about a mile high. And that upwelling that started about

494
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: thirty million years ago seemed to basically have finished its job,

495
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: so to speak, as far as we're concerned, about six

496
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: million years ago, which is when the last of the

497
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: rainforest on the east side of the Roof Valley really

498
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: pretty much disappeared. And so what you've got are basically

499
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: are common answers to the chimpanzees, to the best of

500
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: our knowledge, were pretty chimp like, and that means that

501
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: they were kings of the canopy. They ran the rainforest.

502
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: When they're in their grouping up in the trees together,

503
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: but you put them down on the ground, and suddenly

504
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: there are anybody's dinner. You know. They can't lock their knees,

505
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: they can't um. They're not particularly quick on all fours either,

506
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: and so uh, any large cats and dogs, you know, uh, lions, hyenas,

507
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: any of those animals would have easily been able to

508
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: hunt our chimpanzee ancestors on the savannah. And so, you know,

509
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: how do they respond to this really difficult situation where

510
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: here they've been kings of the canopy, they were really

511
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: top of the food chain, and now suddenly they're thrust

512
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: way back down to the bottom. And unfortunately for us,

513
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: I mean, this could have easily just been a disaster.

514
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: But unfortunately for us, somewhere along the way they figured

515
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 1: out that they could work together much more effectively than

516
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: they do in the trees, and that that sort of

517
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: helps solve their problem. And I think that the and

518
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: that this came about is bipedalism. So about three million

519
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: years after we left the savanna, we were now walking upright,

520
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: And I'd be happy to talk about how that came about,

521
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: but for now, the point is is that, Okay, so

522
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: for the moment, the point is just that we were

523
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: walking upright, and walking up right completely changes our body.

524
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: It allows our hips to rotate better and and lengthens

525
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: amount it allows our shoulders to rotate better. Um, we

526
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: become more laterally oriented to the world rather vertically oriented, which,

527
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: of course, the chimp's muscles are all designed for going

528
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: up a tree, and our muscles are designed for dealing

529
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: with the world laterally, all of those things, um would

530
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: have made our bodies much more effective at throwing. And

531
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: so if you look at you know, throwing on the

532
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: beach or among friends, it's typically the sort of small

533
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: body movement, maybe your shoulders and arms. But if you

534
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: look at throwing among hunter gatherers or throwing among proper

535
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: athletes like baseball players or football players, you realize it's

536
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: this full body motion that starts with the opposite leg

537
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: from the arm you're gonna throw with, and then you

538
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: spin through the hips, then you spin through the waist

539
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: and chest, and then your arm and elbow and shoulder,

540
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: and finally your risk comes through and there's a sort

541
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: of snap at the end. That whole motion generates enormous

542
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: elastic energy across your ligaments, your tenders, and your muscles,

543
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: which is what allows throwing to be so effective. So

544
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: if you look at chimpanzees, for example, they don't have

545
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: any of that because of course they're still living in

546
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: the trees. And as a consequence, they, even though they're

547
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: much stronger than we are, they throw very poorly. How

548
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: much you've ever seen um videos of you UM still

549
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: so typically throw with both hands over the top of

550
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: their head. Sometimes they chuck their crap at each other. UM.

551
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: But you know, they don't do it nearly as well

552
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: as human beings. And so the upshot of the upshot

553
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: of that is that this change to our body, this

554
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: this move to bipedalism, allowed us to basically create the

555
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: most important invention in military history, which is the capacity

556
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: to kill at a distance. And once you get that,

557
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: suddenly that changes everything because now you're in a situation

558
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: where a large force of weaker individuals can effectively attack

559
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: a smaller force of stronger individuals or defend itself from

560
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: such a force. So if you imagine going back several

561
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: million years under Savannah, you and I are hanging out

562
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: and upcome some lines or leopards or any of these

563
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: large cats or dogs, and if there's enough of us.

564
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: Let's say that there's thirty or forty in our group,

565
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: we could probably effectively kill it, but we'd be in

566
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: a huge argument about who attacks it first, because you

567
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: know full well that whoever goes first into that line,

568
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: you know it's going to end up in its mouth. Second, third,

569
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: and fourth probably will as well. It's not until you've

570
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: got enough of us crowded around it that you could

571
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: probably survive that to the consequence that is, you know,

572
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: it's just never gonna happen, right you and I we

573
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: we may we may look at it, we may know

574
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: that we could kill it, but we may know that

575
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: we're going to die in the processes. So no one's

576
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: ever going to go first. But if we could throw,

577
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: if we can kill at a distance, now we can

578
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: successfully attack a line without exposing ourselves to that enormous risk.

579
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: And so is this process that changed everything for our incests?

580
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: And you talk about you know, three point five million

581
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: years ago. We say these numbers, and I we just

582
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: want to address that. You know this, these are millions

583
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: of years when we we think of our lives and

584
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: these short snippets of time within generations, um so I

585
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: as I, as we go through this, and listeners be

586
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: thinking about how how long ago this is and how

587
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: deep this is into the story of our humanity, and

588
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: it's really the beginning of it. Um but three point

589
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: five million years ago, if you talk about here, we

590
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: are starting to use these defensive strategies and ways um

591
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: never before seen. And those defensive strategies start to marry

592
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: into throwing rocks and doing other things. And you made

593
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: a point to me the last time we spoke about

594
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: you know, when you're a little kid, you just want

595
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: to throw. You pick up a rock, your first thing

596
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: you think about is to throw it. Yeah, that's exactly right.

597
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: And so if you think about how evolution shapes our psychology,

598
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: it works in the exact same ways that it shapes

599
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: our biology. So if you look at our our chimpanzee ancestors,

600
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: and you watched them for the first several million years

601
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: after they leave the rainforest, there, you know, these sort

602
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: of lower limbs that they have, which are basically l

603
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: arms with hands at the end, slowly get shaped into

604
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: the legs that we have today. And and that makes

605
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: perfect sense. You can imagine that one animal that happened

606
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: to have sort of straight or stronger legs that that

607
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: seat were a little flatter would have an advantage over

608
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: the other animals, and so that advantage would allow to

609
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: have more children, and that advantageoud be carried on well.

610
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: Attitudes work the exact same way, and so an animal

611
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: that happened to enjoy throwing from when it was a

612
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: little kid would grow up throwing more often. It would

613
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: become a more effective thrower, and so now when it

614
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: got attacked by leopards and lions, it would do a

615
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 1: better job of defending itself. It would survive better, never

616
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: to have more offspring. And so these random changes in

617
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: our psychology or in our biology, evolution ensures that they're

618
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: carried on if they're good ones, if they facilitate survival

619
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: and reproduction, and so they don't come about in any

620
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: kind of planful way, but they do come about just

621
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: by random changes. And then those random changes that are

622
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: useful end up just being swept swept throughout the species.

623
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: And so the throwing when you're little a perfect point.

624
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: You know, you and I when we're kids, we'd love

625
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: to throw rocks. I mean I still enjoy storing rocks,

626
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: and and why why would you? You know, what's so fun?

627
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: About throwing a rock if you if you sit back

628
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: and think about it, because it's not really that special

629
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: in some ways, but other ways, it's just extraordinary thing

630
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: to be able to have an impact on the world

631
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: out a way from you. And of course what it

632
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: really meant for our ancestors was survival. And now when

633
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: they're attacked by a leopard or a lion or even

634
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: saber tooth tigers in those days, they can defend themselves

635
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: by throwing rocks at it. So, Bill, you're talking a

636
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: lot about and it's very important to understand that. You know,

637
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: we started to be able to, uh the affect the

638
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: world at a distance. I think that's a very profound

639
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: way to put it. And as we moved towards becoming hunters,

640
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: we developed instead of these defensive strategies, are more offensive

641
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: nature um to our interaction with with animals, and so

642
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: talk about that very important part, and I think that

643
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: will be very interesting to hunters to know kind of

644
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: how we is a species discovered this activity. Yeah, I

645
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: think that's a great question because that really is howeverythings changes.

646
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: You know, here we are in a situation where first

647
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: all we're trying to do is protect ourselves. You know,

648
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: we've got these large animals attacking us in savannah. We

649
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 1: have to find a way to defend ourselves, and that

650
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: that method is to kill at a distance to throw.

651
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: But of course, once you discover then you can defend

652
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: yourself throwing, it's not a massive mental lead to realize

653
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: that you can also use throwing offensively as well. And

654
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 1: so this is really the beginning of effective hunting. It's

655
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: a move away from the occasional, rather ineffective hunts of

656
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: chepanzees towards reliable and effective hunting. And we can see

657
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: that happening. The very beginnings of that would have been

658
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: three and a half million years ago as australophistocenes, and

659
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: then we can see that developing really nicely as we

660
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: moved towards Homeorectus, where now we've got an animal whose

661
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: brain has really developed in capacity. We've got this massive

662
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 1: increase in brain power, and that suggests that we're bringing

663
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: in much more calories, that we're finding a much better,

664
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: much more effective way of feeding ourselves. Because of course

665
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: we have to pay the rent on these huge brains.

666
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: We have to find a way to bring in extra

667
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: calories in order to afford that out of brain power.

668
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: And so the advantage is that brain power and hunting

669
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: kind of work hand in hand. On the one hand,

670
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: as we get smarter, we become more effective hunters, and

671
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: on the other hand, as we become more effective hunters,

672
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: we gain the capacity to get even smarter still. And

673
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: so by the time we get to home Rectus, we

674
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 1: see our ancestors are bringing down really large animals like elephants,

675
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: bringing down really fast animals like horses, and we're doing so.

676
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: It's some very simple tools, which suggests that we're coordinating

677
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: our activities together really well. And so we got signs

678
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: of division of labor. We are signed a planning for

679
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: the future, all sorts of things that um our other

680
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: our ancestors province to that couldn't do. So. You know, chimpanzees,

681
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: they can't ever imagine a world with unfelt needs. They

682
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: can't if they're full now, they can't ever imagine being

683
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: hungry again. If they're hungry, they can't ever imagine being

684
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: Fullwar's bizarre to us. You know, we can easily realize, well,

685
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: right now, I'm i'm I'm gonna be hungry again tomorrow.

686
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: I need to plan for that. And we see the

687
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: first signs of those planning in our homeorectous ancestors. So,

688
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: for example, for the first time we see that the

689
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: stone tools that they made are being carried great distances

690
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: from where they were acquaried and made originally. And that

691
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: tells you that once they made these stone tools and

692
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: use them, they thought, well, I'm gonna want to use

693
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: this again, I better bring it with me on my hunt,

694
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: Whereas if you look at the prior stone tools, there's

695
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: no their their acquary, they're made, they're used, and then

696
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: their dropsite where they are is if the animal thinks, all,

697
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: I'll never need this again. You know, I've used it once.

698
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: And so all sorts of things change about our mental abilities,

699
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: and they're tightly inter interweaved with hunting because on the

700
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: one hand, we need the more calories in order to

701
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: develop these big brings, and then the other hand, as

702
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: we get these calories, we find even more effective ways

703
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: to pursue these animals. Is there a way to unpack

704
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: the causation there? Because I know, you know, like in

705
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: the first half of the twenty century, there's a lot

706
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: of folks that argued that our ancestors, like the urge

707
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: to hunt and kill drove us to develop spears and axes,

708
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: and that then allowed us to evolve bigger and bigger

709
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: brains in order to handle these increasingly those weapons. And

710
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: then I've seen other people say it the other way.

711
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that our brains were growing based

712
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: on a lot of things you've already described, helped us

713
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: be able to hunt. I imagine there's a little bit

714
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: of both going on. But is there a way to

715
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: explain that the kind of unpacks the way that went down. Yeah,

716
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: I think that you're You're absolutely right. The way to

717
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 1: think about that is that they both self perpetuate each other.

718
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: It creates a virtuous cycle, so to speak. And so

719
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: on the one hand, we if we're going to develop

720
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: big brains, we need a way to feed them, and

721
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: so we start to bring in you know, hunting gives

722
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: you meat which is much higher calorie and and higher

723
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: protein levels and more fats, so it's a it's a

724
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: great source of calories for your brain. And then of

725
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: course once you once you're effectively hunting, you can then

726
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: develop a bigger brain to go back and hunt more effectively.

727
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: And so if you if you go back way at

728
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: the beginning when we're talking about earlier. So why did

729
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: Austo epipa scene become by people in the first place. Well, remember,

730
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: I just argued that they can't envision the world that

731
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: where they have needs that they don't currently have. So

732
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: people often say things like, well, maybe they would want

733
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: to carry food or weapons in case they needed them. Well,

734
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: that's an animal who can't think in case they're not

735
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: capable of thinking. G I might want to keep this

736
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: if they want to eat it now, they would. If

737
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: they don't want to eat it now, they would just

738
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: leave it. So why would they ever be motivated to

739
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: stand up? Well, as soon as they set off across

740
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: the savannah, they would have been scared. You know, here

741
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: they are this animal that's the king of the canopy.

742
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: But that's easy diner out on the ground. And so

743
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: that feeling of fear I suspect made them want to

744
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,479
Speaker 1: have a weapon with them, want to have a stick

745
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,439
Speaker 1: or a stone in their hands to defend themselves. So

746
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: there would have been a motivation to try to carry

747
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: things in order to defend themselves every time they set

748
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: across the grass. But that would have been it. They'd

749
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: have no capacity to plan none of those kinds of things. So,

750
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: but that alone would have made a big difference. Right, So,

751
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: now you've got some kind of weapon and you're crossing

752
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: the savannah, and then when you are attacked, got a

753
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: chance to defend yourself. Now, over time that would have

754
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: slowly led to bipedalism, as those animals who are more

755
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: effective at carrying weapons were more successful. And then what

756
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: you've got is now this animal that's got the capacity

757
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: to kill at a distance, it starts to figure out

758
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: that I can use it can use us for hunting,

759
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: but it still can't plan and do things effectively together.

760
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: That takes an enormous increase of brain power. And so

761
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: where does that increase in brain power come from? Well,

762
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: as a each time they become a little bit more

763
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,959
Speaker 1: effective hunting, they can afford to grow a slightly larger brain.

764
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: And those animals who happen to do so would be

765
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: the ones who are then the most successful. And they're

766
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: going to be the ones who they had also have

767
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: the greatest capacity to plan for the next time. And

768
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: so these things would have cycled in on each other.

769
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: Um perhaps one of the biggest key things was not

770
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: only do you have straightforward evolutionary processes, but you also

771
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: have what we call culture gene coevolution. And so by

772
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 1: the time you get to Homeorectus now almost two million

773
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: years ago, you've got an animal that starts to figure

774
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: out how to control fire. And once you control fire,

775
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: now you actually have an influence on your own evolutionary

776
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: history and your own evolution, sorry, your own evolutionary path

777
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: because you can now cook your food, release more nutrients

778
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: from it, and grow an even larger brain from you know,

779
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: the same amount of material that previously wouldn't have supported it. Yeah,

780
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,919
Speaker 1: and I think one I think fire is a great,

781
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: you know, great turning point for this. But also thinking

782
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: about how when these early humans started to hunt, how

783
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: they how they did it, you know, the really the

784
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: nuts and bolts of what they did, um, what they used,

785
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: and there was I'm not sure how how familiar with

786
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: a butcher site that was discovered in Tanzania. I think

787
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 1: it was like where they were a lot of tools

788
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: and things that were showing that these folks that the

789
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: early humans were ambushing and killing antelope, gazelle will be

790
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: some you know, like other large animals, you know, crouching

791
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: in trees, throwing spears, those types of things. How do

792
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: you find that in the development and know that's been

793
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: proposed that that's the earliest that humans were hunting and

794
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: that's some two million years ago. Yeah, So the it's

795
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: tricky because if you look back at those distances, you

796
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: have no evidence for anything except the stone tools that

797
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: we use. And so the earliest effective stone tools with

798
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 1: these are schooling tools. They're about one point seven million

799
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: years old, maybe as old as one point nine and

800
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: these are shooting tools. Um are these bifacial really well

801
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: designed hand axes, but we don't there's no evidence that

802
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: they designed them in any way to ever to it,

803
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: like attached them to a spear or anything like that.

804
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: But an animal that can have the cleverness to design

805
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: these really lovely bifacial tools out of stone, you can

806
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: almost guarantee that it's also designing tools out of wood, right,

807
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: it's going to be making wooden spears. Chimpanzees even will

808
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: bite the ends off um sticks and turn them into

809
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: stabbing tools. UM, at least those who live on the

810
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: Savannah and Senegal through that, and so we it's a

811
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: guarantee that our homewright desands. It's just had tools that

812
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: are also made out of wood, and tools were made

813
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: out of animal hides and animal parts. But the problem

814
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: is those don't survive the test of time, so we

815
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: don't have any evidence for their wooden spears. We don't

816
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: have any evidence for their animal products, because you know,

817
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: two million years, it's a long time. It's just holding

818
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: to rot. And and so the end result is that

819
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: there's a lot of inference that we just have to

820
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: make about well, what were they using. And it's a

821
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: safe bet that they were using wooden spears, it's a

822
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 1: safe bet that they were using lots of animal products

823
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: in order to help themselves hunt. And of course it's

824
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: also a safe bet that they're just using their cleverness

825
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 1: and the exact way you describe where they'll say, all right,

826
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: you wait here, all waight there, the animal run between us.

827
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: You know, those sorts of plans that um that a

828
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 1: chimpanzee can't do because it can't plan for the future

829
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: in that way, but that humans are incredibly capable of doing. Yeah,

830
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: And I think that's as hunters we often talk about

831
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: and when we get in these more modern debates about

832
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: is hunting as much human activity as any other or

833
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: more so, um, I think this is where it starts.

834
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: You know, we start to be able to explore that

835
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: a little bit more and then and most modern hunters,

836
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: I don't think are aware of the depth even as

837
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: we articulated the depth of what hunting has done for

838
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: our humanity. Um. And so do you have you thought

839
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: about that for as you wrote the socially, even have

840
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: you done your other your various works on this, if

841
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: you thought about exactly, um, how to articulate what hunting

842
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: has meant from this point forward, and what it how

843
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: what it actually propelled in us um, and whether we

844
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: could have the comet we are today without it. Yeah.

845
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: So my one of my favorite examples to look at

846
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: the power of hunting is to just look at our

847
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: guts and our brains. And so if you look at

848
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: the guts of any of the other great apes and

849
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: their brains, what you see is they've got a lot

850
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: of gut, a lot of intestine, supporting a very small brain.

851
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 1: And then you look at humans, then you see a

852
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 1: very small amount of gut supporting a very large brain.

853
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: And then you you can march your way back in

854
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 1: time and that shifting point from when we had a

855
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: small gut and large brain over to large gut and

856
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: small brain is prior to home orectus. So once you

857
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: get to home Rectus, you can see the skeletal structure

858
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: shows a very flat rib cage, suggesting a very small

859
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 1: gut underneath it. When you go back to us epiphocenes,

860
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: now you've got this rib cage that aims outward, which

861
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 1: suggests a very large gut underneath it. And of course

862
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: we've already discussed how ostopaths seems have a small brain,

863
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: and home Wrectus has this very large one um you know,

864
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: almost as we have another chimpanzee brain on top and

865
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: a big step toward us. And so what enabled that,

866
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: of course was eating meat. And so if you if

867
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: you look at at any um you know animal on

868
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: the planet aside from ourselves, who lives off only eating

869
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,479
Speaker 1: vegetables because human beats can now do that effectively because

870
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: of farming. But if you look at any other animal,

871
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: they can't support the kind of brain power that um

872
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: you can support by eating meat. And so hunting is

873
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: what allowed us to shift from these sort of large gut,

874
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: small brain animals to these large, small gut, large brain animals,

875
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: and and and the way hunting allowed us to do

876
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: that was by shifting to you know, there's much more

877
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: high calorie, high fat source of food. If you if

878
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: you look at hunter gatherers anywhere on this planet, there's

879
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: not a single one who's a vegetarian. Vegetarian is is

880
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: something that we moved toward where we could afford to

881
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: do so when mean, we're now so well fed that

882
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: we could make choices about what it is that we

883
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: wanted to eat. Prior to that, every single hunt to

884
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: gather loves meat. When there's an effective kill, it's an

885
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: enormously important day for the whole group because of course

886
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: it gets shared out among everybody. And so it's this

887
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: really big shift that we've got from a world where

888
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: we had to hunt and we're hunting was kind of

889
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: the most important thing that happened to a world where now, well,

890
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: you know, hunting is something you could do or you

891
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: or you don't need to do. You don't need ever

892
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: need to be again if you don't want to them.

893
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: Lots of people, of course have shifted to vegetarianism as

894
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: a consequence. Yeah, and how do you think about that?

895
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: Just from a very tangible, very pragmatic view, of what

896
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: you know about our history species and what you know

897
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 1: about uh, what you might posit or think of about

898
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: where we might be heading. How do you think of

899
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: that at people's the modern luxury of choosing to do

900
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: It's a great question because, on the one hand, especially

901
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: if you look at things like factory farming and these

902
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,479
Speaker 1: horrible ways that they treat animals, you think, how could

903
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,479
Speaker 1: I be part of that? I don't. I don't want to,

904
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 1: you know, be torturing animals in order to support my

905
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: dining habits. On the other hand, personally, UM, I really

906
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: love meat, I really dislike vegetables, and so I'm in

907
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: a situation where I feel like, you know, self interest

908
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: to living dictates that I'm just not going to be

909
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: a vegetarian. I'm not going to do that. And I

910
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: think the good news is that because people are very

911
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: aware of this, and because our world is now so wealthy,

912
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: that we're actually moving to a world where we can

913
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: both treat animals well and where you can not have

914
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,919
Speaker 1: to be a vegetarian. And so you know, all sorts

915
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: of free range farming moves. Um, of course, hunting is

916
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: an animal where assuming that you're eating it and not

917
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: just mounting it on your wall. Hunting is something where

918
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: you can also have an animal that lived a perfectly

919
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: good life and then eventually became somebody's dinner. And so

920
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: in my mind, there's there's more ethical ways of doing

921
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: that as less ethical ways. But the other side of

922
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: the corn, of course, is that you know, we're the

923
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: only speeches on the planet that even has this notion

924
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: of ethical and what's right and what's wrong. Other animals

925
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,399
Speaker 1: just do what works. And so you watch Hyena's hunt

926
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: and and they'll tear an animal shreads, not even bothering

927
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: to kill it first, because that's largely irrelevant to them.

928
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: They're focused on their dinner. They're not focused on how

929
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: the zebra feels who they're eating, and so it's really

930
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: a human luxury, and an important one. I think that

931
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: we start to think about, well, what's it like being

932
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: on the other side, And so I think that we

933
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: went through you know, almost all of our human history

934
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: was one of hunting. Suddenly we're in a world where

935
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: it's it's now past time rather than necessity. And then

936
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: the question is where is it going to go in

937
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: the future. And I think some people arguable is going

938
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: to completely disappear. I suspect not for two reasons. One,

939
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: you know, as we've discussed, it's in our d n A.

940
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: But too it's also the case that human populations are

941
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: now projected to level off around and then they're gonna

942
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: probably start going back down, and it kind of happens.

943
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: It opens up all sorts of scope for you know,

944
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: they're being more nature out there. It's more original state

945
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: and something that we can interact with more effectively. You know,

946
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: what do you think? You know, as we we we

947
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: discussed all the time, UM, and I want to eventually

948
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: get back to the timeline of our revolution, but I

949
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 1: like this topic. Um, what do you think about these

950
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: urges that we have, whether they're genetic or biological or however,

951
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: or they're really evolutionary in there? We have these we

952
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: these certain type of I think of when I kill

953
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: something and I know I'm going to eat it, the

954
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: rush of endorphins I get from that feeling. Not it's

955
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: not the killing of the animal that I think brings

956
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: me some sort of joy or satisfaction. It's not it's death,

957
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: but it's what it's death means to me that brings

958
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: me this joy and satisfaction. And so I often as

959
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: a modey that that luxurious modern hunter, as we discussed,

960
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: try to go through those two I he isn't unpack them. Oh, well,

961
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: when this thing is dead, I know it's going to

962
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: bring this additive measure to my life, this five brutes

963
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: of my life, through its meat, through the experience of

964
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: going and getting it, through telling the story. So at

965
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: its death I feel joy. But many people that are

966
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 1: against Sonny would say that you should not feel joy

967
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: at the death of another sentient being. So how do

968
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: you see that? Just from from where you said and

969
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: what you know, Yeah, I would have to say that

970
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think that there's so many

971
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: generations where, you know, all of our generations, until very recently,

972
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: we were food stressed all the time. We just didn't

973
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: know where tomorrow's meal was going to come from. Now

974
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 1: we may not be literally starving, because most of the

975
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: time we weren't. We're just literally a little bit hungry

976
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: and a little bit concerned because each day we have

977
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: to go out and find tonight's meal. And so what

978
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: that means is for literally thousands of generations, when we

979
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: made a kill, we felt joy for the exact reason

980
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: that you mentioned not necessarily because we had snuffed out

981
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: this life, but because we had now um guarantee eat

982
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: our own and our family's survival and our groups survival

983
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: for another day. And so the I think that's inside

984
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: all of us, that that's inherent to us. That we

985
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: can move away from that and we can, like anything else,

986
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: we can evaluate and decide, well, I don't want to

987
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: feel that way, and I don't like that because I

988
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: don't like hunting or whatever my story is. But I

989
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 1: still think that's this very natural, underlying feeling that we have.

990
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: And so you know, people go in a million different directions,

991
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: there's a million different types of personalities, but underlying all

992
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: of those personalities is this enormously long evolutionary history where

993
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: hunting was a joyous occasion when it was a success

994
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: and it it um it gave us that positive feeling.

995
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: And so even today when you think, well, I could

996
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: go to the grocery store and achieved the same thing,

997
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: but there were no grocery stores in our ancestral past,

998
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: and so it's not like I go to the checkout

999
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: counter and when I put my credit card on the machine,

1000
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: I get this rush of endorphins because I know I

1001
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: can feed my family, because that's not how it worked.

1002
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: The way it worked was I made a kill, and

1003
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: that's what enabled me to feel my family feed my family.

1004
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: And so it's the the positive feeling we got from that.

1005
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: It's something that we just evolved to appreciate. Our ancestors

1006
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 1: didn't feel positive when they successfully hunted, were a lot

1007
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: less successful hunters, and so they ended up not being

1008
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: our ancestors at all. So see this exact process that

1009
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,919
Speaker 1: we're discussing, your attitudes get shaped in. One of those

1010
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: is an attitude of a feeling of joy when you

1011
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 1: have that accomplishment. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great point.

1012
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: And it's one thing that one of the reasons why

1013
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: I became interested in this subject so intensely, is it

1014
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: just because of some of the feelings that I have

1015
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: that I don't know that I could explain to someone

1016
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: has not experienced those feelings. You know, this is one

1017
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: of the ways and folks that are new hunters in

1018
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,839
Speaker 1: this modern sense or have it hunt their whole life

1019
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,439
Speaker 1: and are looking for a way to explain that joy

1020
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: that they feel that maybe they don't they don't understand.

1021
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: It's not about the animals it's just about that. And

1022
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: to another point that I think you could probably help

1023
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: us explain. When we look at subsistence hunting cultures and

1024
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: we look at a lot of UM more traditional hunting cultures,

1025
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: the hunter is exalted in the community. Hunter is UM

1026
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: many times the leader of the community, because without the hunter, UM,

1027
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, people don't live and they don't they don't

1028
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: and they do not survive. So hunters, and we've we've

1029
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 1: discussed this on our podcast recently, in many of those

1030
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 1: societies were UM figureheads, UM and and leaders, and so

1031
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: can you discuss that kind of through time and how

1032
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: how that correlates to where we are. Yeah, it's a

1033
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: super interesting history because you know, if you go back

1034
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: to all the way back to chimpanzees, they're very hierarchical

1035
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: and they throw their weight around and however strong, it's

1036
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: just constantly beating up on over's next. And so they

1037
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: that's just how they live and they tolerate because they

1038
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: have no choice. And then you move to us, and

1039
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 1: we have these enormous abilities to communicate what's going on,

1040
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: and that allows us to form coalitions and create what

1041
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: are called antihierarchical attitude. So if someone's throwing their weight

1042
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: around in our community. And let's say you are, and

1043
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: you're much stronger than I am, so I can't stop

1044
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: you myself, but I can go to my friends and

1045
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: we can all agree that you're being in total pain.

1046
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: And so one night, would Bet goes to sleep, he

1047
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: never wakes up again the next morning, because we've all

1048
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: created a plan where we're gonna offer you in your

1049
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:08,919
Speaker 1: sleep because we're scared of you when you're a late

1050
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 1: And so it sets up a world where the even

1051
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: the strongest members of our group couldn't lord it over

1052
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: everybody else because the collective is always more powerful than

1053
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: the individual, and so in that context, hunting is also

1054
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: super important. But what it created is a really interesting

1055
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: circumstance where the best hunters also become the most modest

1056
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: because they know everybody in my group knows I'm the

1057
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: best hunter. As a consequence, everybody knows that I'm gonna

1058
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: have this tendency to kind of lord it over them

1059
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: because they really need me, so I need to show

1060
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: them that I'm very modest about my abilities. And there's

1061
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: this fascinating book, Hierarchy in the Forest by Christopher Boom,

1062
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: and if you read that book. You see how he

1063
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: talks about when the best hunters come home and they've

1064
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 1: made a kill, they're super proud of themselves. You can

1065
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 1: tell it instantly that they talk about it in these

1066
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: really modest ways. So they it's really almost entertaining. They'll say, um,

1067
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: so they'll come home. You know, everybody knows they're great hunter.

1068
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: They're really key to learn how that they went. And

1069
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: let's say, say, how'd you go today? And so let's

1070
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: say it to me, and I've killed the giraffe, it's

1071
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: a really big day. I'll say, oh, yeah, I was okay,

1072
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: I um, I actually got something that's out but I

1073
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: left it out there. And then you'll neediately, don't I

1074
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: wonder why he left it out there? Like, well, well,

1075
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: do you need help going to get it? Is it

1076
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: worth going out to get? And I'll say, well, you know,

1077
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: it's so sickly and week I'm gonna be embarrassed if

1078
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: we go out there and you decide to leave it there.

1079
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: And that's my way of telling you, I got something sticking,

1080
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: humongous out there and this is a really big occasion.

1081
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: So I it creates this extra modest and modesty me

1082
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: which is actually evidence of how important it is. And

1083
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,879
Speaker 1: so you have this world where the best hunters are

1084
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 1: really appreciated, they're really looked up to, and they have

1085
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: this extra social pressure on them to be doubly modest,

1086
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 1: to act like it's all a matter of luck to

1087
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: do all the kinds of things that takes. So the

1088
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: people will worry that they're going to start loaded learning

1089
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: it over them and becoming, you know, the sort of

1090
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: despotic member of their group. Yeah, I mean, I think

1091
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: that gets into you know, how how we built kind

1092
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: of tribes, how we how eventually there was tribal separation,

1093
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: and how eventually there there became different ways to do things,

1094
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: and um, we talk about tribal separation a good bit. Yeah, absolutely,

1095
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: So the the this would have been the norm for many,

1096
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: many thousands of years while what we call immediate return

1097
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: on to gathers where we lived near the equator and

1098
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: where we are eating today what we killed today. But

1099
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:26,919
Speaker 1: once we move into a world where we can start

1100
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 1: to store food, then everything changes again. And now those

1101
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: who are in favor of a hierarchy have new tools

1102
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: at their disposal in order to rise to the top. So,

1103
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: you know, if you look for example, it at the

1104
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: Pacific northwestern United States. The Native Americans have lived there

1105
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: quickly realized though there's a really reliable salmon runs. They

1106
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: had come in at certain places at certain times and um,

1107
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: and you can store these salmon, you can drive them

1108
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: out and eat of all winter. And so now we

1109
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: have ways of storing food, we have ways of paying

1110
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: off our allies, and so in situations like that, hierarchy

1111
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: re emerged, and now you start to get traditional leadership again.

1112
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: And then it comes right back to what you were

1113
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: talking about, were those leaders in the group. The way

1114
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: to establish your effectiveness is by hunting and by warfare,

1115
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 1: showing that I'm one of the top most dangerous and

1116
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: effective members of my group. And then not only do

1117
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: you does everybody revere you like they always had, but

1118
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: now you can actually rise up in this sort of

1119
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: stable hierarchical structure and eventually become one of the leaders

1120
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: of the group. And hunting was a key way to

1121
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: do that. In warfare, which is a related activity, was

1122
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: another key way to do that. Yeah, we've talked about

1123
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: kind of the leadership that hunting allowed us to understand,

1124
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: and some of the hierarchical structures We've talked about a

1125
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: little bit of what the protein did for us, but

1126
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: there's a something I've always been interested in. We haven't

1127
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: talked about this before, but conservation as a modern construct.

1128
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 1: It's kind of like when we decided we had to

1129
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: eliminate the prevention or prevent the wasteful use of a resource.

1130
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: And I wonder in your your study of of our

1131
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,479
Speaker 1: hunting history and human history, when we started to see

1132
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: these things as a resource and when we started to

1133
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: evolve into a being that knew it had to some

1134
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: sort of dominion over how many of these things there

1135
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: were in relationship our consumption of them. Yeah, that's a

1136
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: that's a great question. And unfortunately the notions of conservation

1137
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: are are really quite modern. Um. There's two reasons for that,

1138
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: and and the first is that in the past, we

1139
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: never had weapons that were so effective that we could

1140
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: literally kill at will and have more than enough to eat,

1141
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: and so our ancestors were always in really what what

1142
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 1: I would say is a close competition with the animals

1143
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: that they're trying to capture and kill. UM, So sometimes

1144
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: they couldn't find them, or they couldn't catch up to them,

1145
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: and sometimes they had plenty and something maybe even occasionally

1146
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: too much, but it was never a situation when they're

1147
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: reliably could over um call the animals where they could

1148
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: kill more than they really needed, and so as a consequence,

1149
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: um conservation really wasn't relevant to their lives until the

1150
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: invention of these modern weapons. And then the second problem,

1151
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: of course, is that if whenever we're in competition with

1152
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: each other and we're not member is the same group,

1153
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: I might say, well, I'll try to conserve these animals

1154
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 1: and I won't overkill them, but I don't know that

1155
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: you're going to follow that rule as well, and it

1156
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: creates what we call the tragedy of the commons, which

1157
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: is that you can see today, for example, and overfishing

1158
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: of the seats, I say to myself, well, I don't

1159
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: want to fish anymore now because there won't be fishing

1160
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: next year. But I'm worried you're not going to follow

1161
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: that rule because you're from a different country or a

1162
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: different group inside of our own country. And so because

1163
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: I can't trust you, I kind of have no choice

1164
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: but to overfish so that at least I'll get as

1165
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: much as I possibly can before the resource collapses. And

1166
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: so what we end up with the situations where when

1167
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 1: there's not one group in control of the resource, it

1168
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: almost always ends up collapsing because we can't trust each other.

1169
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: And those two rules would have held in a big

1170
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 1: way for our ancestors. And so the main advantage that

1171
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: we have in that regard is it was rarely the

1172
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: case that our ancestors could over exploit resources. Now, the

1173
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: one exception to that is every time human beings moved

1174
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: into a new continent or a new island, if there

1175
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: was a a resource that was large, really valuable, especially

1176
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: one that wasn't used to humans, we quickly overexploited it

1177
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: and caused it to go extinct. And you can see

1178
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: that over and over again as we moved into these

1179
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: new environments, as human beings left Africa and expanded across

1180
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: the globe, with the most recent example being you know

1181
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: we call human beings arrived in New Zealand shore Is

1182
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: only seven hundred years ago, and at that time there

1183
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: was this very large flightless bird, this moa bird that

1184
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: was very easy to kill because it wasn't scared of us,

1185
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: lots of great protein, and we quickly caused those to

1186
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: go extinct. So we had no sense in the past

1187
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 1: of our enormous capacity to destroy the local uh, you know, fauna,

1188
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: and and so we had no real sense that we

1189
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: ought to be conserving. And it's only now, after having

1190
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: seen enormous devastation that we could cause, that it's become

1191
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: really obvious to us. Boy, if we don't want this

1192
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: to happen over and over again, we have to be

1193
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: much better about it. And I think that's a big

1194
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 1: part of the reason that hunters lead a lot of

1195
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 1: these conservation movements, because they see the costs of you know,

1196
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: the prior hunting of bison and all sorts of things,

1197
01:00:57,920 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: and how they don't want that sort of thing to

1198
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: happen in in Yeah, that's a great point. It's good

1199
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: to hear from that perspective, because a lot of things

1200
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: we fall into in our modern you know, I keep

1201
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 1: saying modern hunting, in our hunting community right now, is

1202
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: that we have these ideals and we we know they're

1203
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: deep rooted, but we're just not sure where they might

1204
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: have started or exactly, um, how to relay them past.

1205
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: You know, we know at the turn of the century

1206
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: in this country that that we've had a large push

1207
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: towards conservation, but beyond that, we really don't know. We

1208
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: just know there was a lot of pillaging of resources

1209
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 1: of all kinds and in uh in centuries prior to that. Yeah,

1210
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: it's an unfortunate part of human nature that we really

1211
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: are evolved to worry much more about tomorrow than to

1212
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: worry about now. And it's only when we can really

1213
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: stop and reflect and look over long periods of time

1214
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: to see how things have changed the beginning that capacity

1215
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: to also look for longer as a time forward, and

1216
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: that's really the modern world. Because our ancestors had no

1217
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: clear capacity to quantify, well, how many of those animals

1218
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: used to run through this area and how many do now.

1219
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: They just wasn't They just weren't able to do that.

1220
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: And so we also think of our distant ancestors as

1221
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: being very conservation minded because they cared a lot, but

1222
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 1: they didn't know how to execute. They are far more

1223
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: likely to know pray to the local gods for a

1224
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: good harvest, or are good hunt next year than they

1225
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 1: were to say, well, we've hunted this area a little

1226
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: bit too much, let's move on, because they knew full

1227
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: well that if they moved on, someone else might move

1228
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: in and just finished the job for them, So there's

1229
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 1: really little that they could do. Yeah, And you know,

1230
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: in this day and age, we we do think of

1231
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 1: that we have some dominion over wildlife, we have this

1232
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: need to manage them, and and that that colors our

1233
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 1: relationship with wildlife in in in a pretty deep way,

1234
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: um in the modern sense. But that that just wasn't

1235
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: the way back in those in our as we evolved

1236
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: as humans, there wasn't that relationship. It was it was

1237
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: a pure opportunistic or was there some other ritualistic way

1238
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 1: that it was expressed it? It was it was ritualistic,

1239
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 1: it was tied up in local beliefs, but it was

1240
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: also like an ongoing competition where you know, it's it's

1241
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: me against the line, it's me against the will the beast.

1242
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: It's I don't feel like I have any dominionment over

1243
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,919
Speaker 1: it and any need to protect it. Rather, I feel

1244
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: entirely the opposite, that I'm in competition with it. And

1245
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: one of the things that anthropologists will tell you when

1246
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: they go out and work with these um small scale

1247
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: societies is that the people who live in them can

1248
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,919
Speaker 1: be incredibly cruel to the animals that um that they're

1249
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: interacting with. They just they don't have the same sense

1250
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: of responsibility over them, and so the anthropologists can often

1251
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: get sucked into these games where the locals will say, well,

1252
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 1: if you don't give the acts, I'm gonna torture this

1253
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: animal to death. And I know it sounds horrible, but

1254
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: for them, it's not a church, and the animal that

1255
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 1: death doesn't have any moral implications, and they just see

1256
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: that the anthropologists is so squeamish about it that they

1257
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: start to take advantage of that. Now, of course, slowly,

1258
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: over time that changes as people start to realize population

1259
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,919
Speaker 1: density goes up and they do have dominion over these things,

1260
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: but it takes a long time to get there. It's

1261
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: a very modern concept. Yeah, And and can you give

1262
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 1: some some we talk about these comparisons. I mean, we're traveling,

1263
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, over millions of years here, can

1264
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: you give some And I've seen this expressed a few places,

1265
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: But do you have anything in your you know, in

1266
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 1: your vocabulary or in the ways you like to use

1267
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: analogies to this how much time we were hunter gatherers

1268
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: to the amount of time that we have not been

1269
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 1: hunter gatherers. Yeah, that's a great question. So basically the

1270
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 1: when I think about the origin of a species, it's

1271
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: very close to us. Homeorectus is really that one. Prior

1272
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 1: to that, we're really much more chimps than we are human.

1273
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: And after that we're really much more human than we

1274
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: are chimped. And so that's about one point seven to

1275
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: one point nine million years ago. So from that time forward,

1276
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 1: we're slowly becoming us and we have and and so

1277
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: when you've got a little over one and a half

1278
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 1: million years and and almost that entire history, all we

1279
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 1: are every day is hunter, gathers and media returned togethers

1280
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: killing today and then eating today. And if we don't

1281
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: kill today, we don't eat. We only what somebody dug up,

1282
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: which is an inferior food. And so got almost two

1283
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: million years of that history. And then agriculture was invented

1284
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 1: about twelve thousand years ago, and not everywhere. In some

1285
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: spots they're really suitable for agriculture, and so people got

1286
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, the Middle East and China for example, um

1287
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: and other spots were less suitable for agriculture, and so

1288
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: in fact, in some places agriculture was never invented, it

1289
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: was never used. So basically you've got a uh, the

1290
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: sort of last couple of versions of our species for

1291
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: almost two million years, and for a little less than

1292
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 1: ten thousand of that we've been growing food on our own.

1293
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: Now that's not to say that we haven't been gathering

1294
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: that whole time, because of course human beings are omnivorous,

1295
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 1: and so it was one of the very standard divisions

1296
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: of labor. By effect is females tended to go gather men,

1297
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,439
Speaker 1: males tended to hunt large animals. So we've been eating

1298
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 1: lots of plant life for a very long time, but

1299
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: we've been always going back and forth between eating the

1300
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: plants we could gather and the animals that we could hunt.

1301
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: And it's only just this last blink of time, this

1302
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 1: last ten thousand years, which know, it's just a very

1303
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: small window compared to the two million years prior, where

1304
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 1: we've been relying much more heavily on the things that

1305
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: we can grow and moving away from the things that

1306
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: we can hunt. And even then in the last ten

1307
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:16,440
Speaker 1: thousand years, lots of society shifted to the agriculture, but

1308
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: lots of You can look at the history of Europe

1309
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: and you can see that hunter gatherers were coexisting with farmers,

1310
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, for most of that time. It wasn't until

1311
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,959
Speaker 1: very recently that basically hunter gathering has disappeared from the planet,

1312
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: and that's the last few hundred years. Prior to that,

1313
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: hunter gathering was still existing all over the planet. Yeah.

1314
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 1: We had a podcast earlier in this summer and discussing

1315
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: the Lama Layrans, which are assistants whaling tribe and an

1316
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 1: island off the coast of Indonesia, And in that discussion

1317
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 1: we talked about the the not eradication, it's probably not

1318
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 1: the right word, but the elimination of some of these

1319
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer cultures, these subsistence cultures, and over time, the

1320
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: percentage we have cut off although different types of culture

1321
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: there went from thousands and thousands of cultures to relatively

1322
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 1: few based on the comparative number. Have you studied and

1323
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 1: looked at that over the time. Yeah. The downside is

1324
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 1: that so if you look at the history of agriculture,

1325
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: first of all, as we just discussed, it's only one

1326
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,439
Speaker 1: percent of our sort of history is kind of human

1327
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 1: like animals. So of our human like history is hunter gathering,

1328
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: one percent is agriculture. And now you take that one

1329
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: percent of the time and what you realize is that. Actually,

1330
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: it's a really bad deal for any of the individual

1331
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: farmers once we switched over. So they went from this

1332
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 1: diet that admittedly wasn't very balanced on any one day

1333
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: because it's whatever you killed, you ate, but was very

1334
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 1: balanced over time. And so they've got this really balanced diet.

1335
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 1: They've got this really active lifestyle where they are out

1336
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 1: for a few hours each day hunting, and then they've

1337
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,439
Speaker 1: got leisure to spend time with each other, but they're

1338
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 1: always moving around their nomadic and now you become sententary

1339
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: and you become heavily reliant on the start diet. And

1340
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: so for the individual farmers it was a terrible deal.

1341
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 1: They worked harder to get less there. They were shorter

1342
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 1: than their ancestors, they were they were less healthy than

1343
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: their ancestors because they introduced all sorts of diseases from

1344
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: the animals that they're now living by job with all

1345
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: sorts of problems like that. But the carrying capacity of

1346
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 1: the land is so much greater for agriculture than it

1347
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: is the hunter gathering, and so slowly over time you've

1348
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 1: got um agriculturals are displacing hunter gatherers everywhere, even though

1349
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:33,520
Speaker 1: the agriculturalists themselves until very recently we're less healthy specimens.

1350
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: They're simply more of them. And so over time, if

1351
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: you look at the we can now do this lovely

1352
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 1: genetics to look at human movements over the last several

1353
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: thousand years, and you can just see um all sorts

1354
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 1: of incursions by hunter gather populations. But then they always

1355
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 1: get assimilated, They get brought into the agricultural populations because

1356
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: they're simply more of them. It's impossible to win that fight,

1357
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 1: so to speak, and so Brazilian cultures get slowly with

1358
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,520
Speaker 1: the way until there's only a few left. Now, admittedly,

1359
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:04,759
Speaker 1: all of our genes are still in the gene pool.

1360
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's rare that people get wiped out entirely.

1361
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 1: It's much more common that they get assimilated. But so

1362
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,600
Speaker 1: genetically we're all still there. But linguistically and and in

1363
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 1: different cultural habits they're gone. Yeah. Now, do you do

1364
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: you feel that technology is is kind of the same

1365
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 1: a similar or the same force to agriculture, Like it

1366
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 1: will have the same effect. Yeah, I will, because if

1367
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 1: you if you think about technology, you know it it

1368
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,560
Speaker 1: makes everything super duper easy. Although it makes all of

1369
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 1: us stuck at our computers all day long, and so

1370
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 1: we again become less healthy, all pastures worse, all sorts

1371
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 1: of things. You know, we're not. We didn't evolve to

1372
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 1: sit on our rear ends all day. You can. You're

1373
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 1: telling me, here's actually get longer. The longer you sit

1374
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: and are shorter. I'm sorry, the shorter, the longer you sit,

1375
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: and and that's the sign that you're shortening your life.

1376
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: So it's it's not cludes for any individual, but of

1377
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 1: course it's super effective for society. Ideas pass instantaneously. Um,

1378
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 1: there's this sort of cultural soup that all gets it

1379
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,880
Speaker 1: shifts quickly, but but all everyone gets assimilated to it.

1380
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: And so you can easily imagine a world if you

1381
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:06,800
Speaker 1: and I were having this conversation two and it is

1382
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 1: from now. I have to believe there's going to be

1383
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: very few languages that are left armants is just gonna

1384
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 1: be a few dominant languages that everybody see. They'll be

1385
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: everybody will know all the same stuff because it will

1386
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,320
Speaker 1: be instantly accessible on the internet. I mean, it'll be

1387
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: great in some ways, because we still have lots of

1388
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 1: disease and lots of starvation and all that, and that

1389
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 1: will be eliminated, but it'll be a cost to that, right,

1390
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 1: there be lots of interesting human differences will be lost. Yeah,

1391
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 1: Now that something just strikes me now that as we're

1392
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 1: going through this conversation that there are these forces that

1393
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,599
Speaker 1: that we stumble upon or we create, however we get

1394
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 1: there as humans. However, we evolved too to these abilities

1395
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:47,639
Speaker 1: that while they are advantageous in the moment and maybe,

1396
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 1: as you say, advantageous for our overall society, they start

1397
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: to eat away at from the core of these humanity,

1398
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: these aspects of community that we're talking about, which is movement,

1399
01:10:57,520 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: which is hunting, which is that? And I wonder how,

1400
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: you know, if I would just say personally, as a hunter,

1401
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:06,479
Speaker 1: I feel this calmness when I'm hunting, I feel this

1402
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 1: this urge to go there. And when I don't, it's

1403
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 1: like medicine. If I don't have that medicine, Um, I

1404
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 1: feel certain things. I feel depressed when I'm sitting in traffic,

1405
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: or maybe depressed when I'm eating uh, you know, some

1406
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: sort of fast food and and and huntings. It's kind

1407
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 1: of weird medicine. And again, much like we were talking

1408
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: about earlier, it's hard to articulate what that really means.

1409
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 1: It is super interesting and there's there's more and more

1410
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: data now the show that when you get out in nature,

1411
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 1: it's actually good for your mental health. It's good for

1412
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: your brain functioning. The it's a it's an early area

1413
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 1: of this research. We don't know exactly why, but I

1414
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 1: think that, of course, it comes back to the fact

1415
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 1: that when we're out hunting, when we're in charge, so

1416
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: to speak, when we're out seeking game, when we're out

1417
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,880
Speaker 1: exploring nature, we are in an element that's very natural

1418
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 1: for us and that we understand intuitively, and so it

1419
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 1: doesn't you know, if I'm walking through a city, there's

1420
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:58,560
Speaker 1: those sorts of potential threats and opportunities, but none of

1421
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,560
Speaker 1: them are naturally connect to my psychology. I have to

1422
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: literally figure them out. Oh do I want that pizza? Oh?

1423
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: Should I avoid that car? Whereas when you're in the woods,

1424
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: you know that your mind is a tune to what's

1425
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: going on around you, and you know that if there's

1426
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 1: dangers you'll be your attention will be automatically drawn to it,

1427
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:16,680
Speaker 1: and so that you can kind of rely on the

1428
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 1: way your brain has worked for you know, many millennia,

1429
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: UM you know, hundreds of thousands of years, you can

1430
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: rely on the fact that that's going to guide you well,

1431
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 1: whereas in the in the city you need this constant

1432
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 1: alertness and attention, and of course sitting in traffic is

1433
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 1: ghastly because you need it all and nothing's happening. And

1434
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 1: so the it is the case that the psychology is

1435
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 1: showing that being out a nature is super important to us. Now,

1436
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 1: will it always be? I don't know, but it certainly

1437
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 1: is now given this long evolutionary history we evolved in

1438
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: of being in nature and being successful out there. Yeah,

1439
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean, is there ever a time where you imagine

1440
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: that these things aren't kind of underpinnings of who we are,

1441
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 1: That that that we have kind of technology and agriculture

1442
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: and process of foods and and the availability of shelter

1443
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 1: and just the way that we live kind of a

1444
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:09,000
Speaker 1: race is completely these urges or will do you feel like,

1445
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 1: just based on millions of years, that will always be there?

1446
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 1: I will always is a very long word, right, So

1447
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 1: it's super hard to know what our speecies is like

1448
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: in a hundred thousand years or two hundred thousand years,

1449
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 1: but you know, our speacies is about two hundred fifty

1450
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 1: thousand years old. It's a blend. There's no defining line

1451
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 1: where if you and I walk back through time and go, Okay,

1452
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 1: that guy's I'm home wrecks and that guy's Homo sapiens.

1453
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:34,480
Speaker 1: So there's not a cut point. So but nonetheless, if

1454
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: you if you look at this continuous evolution of the

1455
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,680
Speaker 1: last few million years, it's always been in nature, and

1456
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 1: so in my mind, it would take a few million

1457
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 1: years to erase it. But I don't see. I don't

1458
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 1: see our progeny is being desirous of erasing it, especially

1459
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: if if these current population models are accurate, and that

1460
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 1: we tend to live in cities, we tend to live,

1461
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 1: our families get smaller, their world population decreases. There's always

1462
01:13:57,479 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 1: gonna be lots of nature out there. You know. You

1463
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 1: can sort of feel like it under threat when you

1464
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: look at the last hundred years. But I suspected if

1465
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:05,519
Speaker 1: you look at the next hundred years, we're going to

1466
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 1: do a much better job with a decrease in population

1467
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: and a greater sensitivity to the problem. And so my

1468
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 1: guess is it will always be important to us, and

1469
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 1: it will always be something that human being seen and

1470
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 1: the you know, just walking in the woods and and

1471
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 1: I was just in Alaska last time we chatted. And

1472
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: you know, we're walking along with my brothers and I

1473
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 1: and and up comes this bull moose on the on

1474
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:27,599
Speaker 1: the trail ahead of us, and so you know, it's

1475
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:31,799
Speaker 1: this exciting moment where you you're negotiating with a relatively

1476
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: large animal. You both want to go your separate ways,

1477
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 1: and you're not quite sure I was going to end up.

1478
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 1: And that's that's how we evolved doing those kinds of

1479
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 1: things all the time. We didn't evolve to be trying

1480
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:43,679
Speaker 1: to get it across walk and wait across the street

1481
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 1: when all the traffic settles down, and the kinds of

1482
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 1: things that we spend most of our lives doing. Now, yeah,

1483
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: now I feel like there is there is that. And

1484
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:53,720
Speaker 1: the people ask me, or we get in these conversations

1485
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: of what is the future hunting and and how will

1486
01:14:56,439 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: it change? How will the demographics of hunting change, how

1487
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,720
Speaker 1: can it shift? And kind of generationally remain relevant? And

1488
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:06,599
Speaker 1: I often say that I see in people that live

1489
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 1: in in predominantly urban settings, in suburban settings, I see

1490
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: in them the urge to go and explore these things,

1491
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:17,519
Speaker 1: the urge to get outside, the urge to escape, um,

1492
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to say a concrete prison,

1493
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: but to escape that urban environment thing that isn't so

1494
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:26,360
Speaker 1: natural to them. So I've seen even though urbanization in

1495
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: the short term here in this last thirty years span

1496
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 1: has kind of killed hunting in a way, or at

1497
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 1: least stopped its growth in the modern sense, it might

1498
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 1: eventually be an outlet for for this urge that we're

1499
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 1: going to increasingly feel its technology and kind of urban

1500
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 1: landscapes just continue to grow. Yeah, I think so. And

1501
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 1: so with the question that that's interesting to me and

1502
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer is will this be something

1503
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:54,120
Speaker 1: where people slowly shift away from hunting and they become campers,

1504
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 1: for example, where they go out into it but they

1505
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: don't hunting it, or will be something where we're always hunting.

1506
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 1: If I had to bet, I would say that hunting

1507
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 1: is not going to disappear, because it played so much

1508
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:07,920
Speaker 1: of an important role in our in our ancestry, that

1509
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:10,600
Speaker 1: it is in our DNA like throwing rocks. And so

1510
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 1: there's always going to be people who are keen to

1511
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,640
Speaker 1: go out and hunt, and enough of them that the

1512
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 1: laws are unlikely to be changed. So there's something you

1513
01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 1: just can't do, especially since it would be a certain

1514
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 1: degree of hypocrisy to saying, well, you can't go hunted deer,

1515
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:24,680
Speaker 1: but I can kill this cow and eat it. Right,

1516
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 1: So you know that as long as we're doing one,

1517
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 1: we're going to be doing the other. Now you've probably

1518
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: seen this work where they're growing meat and peatra dishes,

1519
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 1: and eventually we may get so good at that that

1520
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:39,639
Speaker 1: then nobody's animal farming anymore. And if nobody's animal farms,

1521
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 1: you could imagine the world where people who are against

1522
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 1: it start changing the laws and so you can't hunt.

1523
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 1: But I'm not even sure about that. I I don't

1524
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 1: know that that, you know, especially since the responsible hunting

1525
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: doesn't there's no threat of extinction. It can keep the

1526
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 1: balance between different animals together. It's not clear to me

1527
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:01,880
Speaker 1: that that would have disappear. Yeah, And I think as

1528
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 1: long as we're articulating the benefits and in society understands

1529
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,000
Speaker 1: those things, then yeah, I I can agree with that.

1530
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:10,320
Speaker 1: I think being in the community and seeing and shrink

1531
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 1: and understanding, like just from my father's generation to mine,

1532
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: there's been such this, you know, tectonic shift and who

1533
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 1: is doing it, and how many folks are doing and

1534
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:21,400
Speaker 1: how accepted it is or not. I think those of us,

1535
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,679
Speaker 1: and now that our hunters are get a little bit worried,

1536
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:26,920
Speaker 1: they continue this way for very long, then this thing

1537
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 1: will will be over. But it's nice to hear you

1538
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 1: say that. I guess it feels good. Yeah, I mean,

1539
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 1: I'm not very good at predicting the future. I'm must

1540
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 1: be looking at the past. But it seems to me

1541
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:38,639
Speaker 1: that hunters are also very sensitive to where it's going.

1542
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:41,519
Speaker 1: And so if you look at some of the strongest

1543
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: conservations since Daies world are hunters because they're very concerned

1544
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 1: about the future of it. And that's the kind of thing,

1545
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 1: of course, that keeps it going. Yeah, it's these kind

1546
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 1: of conversations that really understand where we've we've been to

1547
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,879
Speaker 1: understand where we're going. Um, you know, it's it seems sometimes,

1548
01:17:57,840 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit silly to speaking like oh

1549
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,640
Speaker 1: that two million years, three million years formulas and in

1550
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 1: those terms, but it is it is because that's just

1551
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 1: not how we our minds work. That's that we can't

1552
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 1: conceive of that. I wouldn't think remembers that are so ridiculous.

1553
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,639
Speaker 1: You can't really imagine them, and so we can say them,

1554
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 1: but to feel what it's like is absurved. I mean,

1555
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 1: in just a few generations, no one will ever know

1556
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 1: that I even existed, much less in a million years,

1557
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 1: when none of us will ever know anyone, you know,

1558
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 1: it's just the world changes so dramatically. Well, that's that's, uh,

1559
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 1: the task you've taken on in the human evolutionary biology.

1560
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:33,959
Speaker 1: I don't know what you do is is to understand

1561
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 1: the scope of our humanity and give us a little

1562
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:39,880
Speaker 1: bit of information and are very brief pinprick time of

1563
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 1: existency here to kind of do it a little bit better.

1564
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 1: And and that's what I hoped out of this conversation.

1565
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:46,680
Speaker 1: And I just like I said earlier, become interested in

1566
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,680
Speaker 1: this just because one because you were on with my

1567
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 1: friend Joe Rogan, but less that, it's it's more just

1568
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 1: as you talk about, you know, the relevancy of the

1569
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 1: things we feel and the thing as we're grappling with

1570
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 1: right now as hunters. It's it's very relevant to our

1571
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:08,759
Speaker 1: history and it is colored and painted by our past

1572
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:11,080
Speaker 1: and is many millions of years that are there to

1573
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 1: to explore. So I mean, it just seems endless, uh

1574
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: and and endless subject is it is? It is? It's

1575
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 1: super interesting and I wish I'm more expert in the

1576
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 1: more hottern side of it, but because there's there's lots

1577
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 1: of very interesting questions of how it all changed just

1578
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:28,920
Speaker 1: in the last m bousing years, just the last hundred years,

1579
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 1: and those questions I'm less I'm aware of. I don't

1580
01:19:32,160 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 1: know as much of that anthropological work, but it is

1581
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:37,400
Speaker 1: it's all tightly tied to the same basic questions, which

1582
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 1: is how did our species evolved and what role did

1583
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:43,080
Speaker 1: hunting play in it? And then how can we use

1584
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:45,679
Speaker 1: that now it's going forward to do it better? Yeah,

1585
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 1: that's perfect. And we always say you can't if you're

1586
01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 1: not going to continue doing things because they were done

1587
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 1: in the past. There's a lot of horrors in our

1588
01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 1: past that we've raised, but we certainly can learn from

1589
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:56,599
Speaker 1: something that is part of who we are and continue

1590
01:19:56,600 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 1: to push forward and preserve the things that are um

1591
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 1: you know, that need to be preserved. Absolutely we can. Yeah,

1592
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,439
Speaker 1: do you use history to benefit tomorrow? Is the exact

1593
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: reason why we remember in the first place. There's zero

1594
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:10,680
Speaker 1: point in remembering our past if we can't use it

1595
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 1: to make a better future. Beautiful. That's a great place

1596
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:15,679
Speaker 1: to end. Um. Dr Frone people, thank you so much

1597
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 1: for um coming on and having this conversation. I want

1598
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:20,800
Speaker 1: to do it again because I think we can probably

1599
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:22,920
Speaker 1: start from a million years ago and continue to work.

1600
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 1: But until that time, everyone go out and pick up

1601
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 1: the social leap. Like I said, it's not a way.

1602
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:31,880
Speaker 1: Often on this podcast talk about hunting books and books

1603
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:33,719
Speaker 1: about turkey hunting and how to talk to it turkey.

1604
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 1: This is not that. What it is is a primer

1605
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 1: to everything you think about when you're out hunting, and

1606
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: it is. It's fascinating and a wonderful read. Thanks man.

1607
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed chatting with you. It's a super interesting topic,

1608
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 1: and I do hope we get a chance to talk again,

1609
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 1: hopefully in person next time. Yeah. Yeah. For those who don't,

1610
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know the backstory. I tried to fly to Alaska,

1611
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 1: couldn't make it. We tried to set this up over

1612
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:57,120
Speaker 1: phone a couple of times, and and Bill has been

1613
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:01,439
Speaker 1: very patient with me and very kind to to spend

1614
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 1: the time pleasure. All right, Thanks Bill, thank you. That's it.

1615
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 1: That's all. Another episode in the books. Thank you. So

1616
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:17,320
Speaker 1: much to William von Hipple. I apologize for saying William

1617
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 1: von Nipple that, but you know, maybe he'll stick and

1618
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:25,000
Speaker 1: maybe it'll somehow and enhance your public persona. But I

1619
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:29,679
Speaker 1: need to apologist. William was very cool and very helpful

1620
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,639
Speaker 1: with us. We actually Phil, and I feels like Phil's

1621
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:35,519
Speaker 1: first day here. He probably doesn't like that I'm saying

1622
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 1: this now, but his one of the first days here.

1623
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 1: We set up a phone call podcast with William von

1624
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:43,639
Speaker 1: Hipple and then couldn't make it work, so he sat

1625
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:46,479
Speaker 1: there for like five minutes while we jangled around with

1626
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 1: phones and things. And then prior to that, I was

1627
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 1: supposed to go meet him in Anchorage and I did

1628
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,080
Speaker 1: not get that done. So he was very very gracious

1629
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 1: in his time. So thank you for that, William, and

1630
01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 1: thanks for the great conversation. I hope we can do

1631
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 1: more of that because it is absolutely critical to the

1632
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 1: way we think about hunting. And thanks to our team,

1633
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:07,960
Speaker 1: including Sam Solholt, who drove the bus over here after

1634
01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:11,759
Speaker 1: the Total Archery Challenge to get silly with us about

1635
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:16,639
Speaker 1: top five. I will say that meat Loaf, that meat

1636
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:20,840
Speaker 1: Low song may become the new th a C theme song.

1637
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 1: It might. I don't know. Old Number seven is great,

1638
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:25,840
Speaker 1: but a lot of you guys right in and label

1639
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:27,560
Speaker 1: that as a hipster song, which I don't agree with.

1640
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:31,000
Speaker 1: Do you think that's a hipster song? Phil? Old number seven?

1641
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:33,960
Speaker 1: He doesn't think, so he says no. Um. And so

1642
01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 1: that's that for this episode. The last three episodes I

1643
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 1: really enjoyed. We're gonna continue that. Next week. We had

1644
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 1: Keith Balford from Boone and Crockett in the studio to

1645
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:46,960
Speaker 1: talk about the history of the Boon and Cracker Club

1646
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 1: and get into some of their fair Chase statement public

1647
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:54,080
Speaker 1: statements and some of their Hunt Right campaign and went

1648
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:57,120
Speaker 1: deep on fair Chase and what it means for us.

1649
01:22:57,479 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 1: Hopefully you're still willing to have that conversation with us,

1650
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 1: because we're gonna keep keep chugging on it as long

1651
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 1: as we can. Uh what else? What else? What else?

1652
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 1: Oh Um? Th h C at the meat Eator dot

1653
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 1: com th HC at the Metator dot com. I will

1654
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 1: admit to having so many emails from these last two

1655
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 1: vegan animal rights episodes. All a lot of you guys

1656
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 1: were fired up, you were thinking hard, you were writing

1657
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,519
Speaker 1: me very long emails. Many of you very long emails,

1658
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 1: and I did my very best to read every single

1659
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 1: one of them. In fact, for the first time ever,

1660
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 1: th h C at the metator dot Com was getting

1661
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:34,719
Speaker 1: three times the emails that my actual work email is getting.

1662
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,920
Speaker 1: So I don't know what that means, but I enjoy

1663
01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:40,400
Speaker 1: enjoy all the messages, so please keep them coming. Th

1664
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,680
Speaker 1: HD at the meetator dot com. Please keep sending me

1665
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:45,840
Speaker 1: your audio clips and reviews of the show. Take out

1666
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:50,200
Speaker 1: your phone, hit the notes, hit record, and then email

1667
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 1: it to me. Th HD at the meetor dot com.

1668
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 1: We love to hear him, love the feedback. That's what

1669
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:58,880
Speaker 1: we do so that we'll leave us some old number

1670
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: seven and we'll see you next. We thanked Jack Daniels.

1671
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:06,280
Speaker 1: Oh I'm seven, Tennessee. Who whiskey got me drinking in

1672
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:09,840
Speaker 1: heaven and uh and just stopped. It looks good to me.

1673
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:15,880
Speaker 1: They're gonna have to department to the fire redeed. Oh

1674
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:23,160
Speaker 1: on the fire redeed, drinking in the fide Oh on

1675
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 1: the finery, d drinking in heaven.