1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:23,756 Speaker 1: Pushing. We're excited about this conversation and want to hear 2 00:00:23,876 --> 00:00:25,916 Speaker 1: more about how you came up with this idea, but 3 00:00:25,956 --> 00:00:28,556 Speaker 1: also just talk about the importance of how people learn 4 00:00:28,636 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 1: American history, do they. I'm Khalil Jibra Muhammad and I'm 5 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:40,556 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white. 6 00:00:40,716 --> 00:00:43,516 Speaker 1: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is 7 00:00:43,556 --> 00:00:46,036 Speaker 1: some of my best friends are Some of my best 8 00:00:46,036 --> 00:00:49,636 Speaker 1: friends are dot dot dot. In this show, we wrestle 9 00:00:49,716 --> 00:00:53,756 Speaker 1: with the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided 10 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:57,796 Speaker 1: and unequal country. And in this episode, we're gonna unpack 11 00:00:58,116 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 1: why we are so divided and unequal. We're gonna learn 12 00:01:01,636 --> 00:01:04,556 Speaker 1: what we've all been learning in textbooks for a very 13 00:01:04,596 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: long time. We're talking about teaching white supremacy. This episode 14 00:01:09,676 --> 00:01:24,436 Speaker 1: has some strong language, just a fair warning, but stick around. Khalil. 15 00:01:25,436 --> 00:01:28,836 Speaker 1: Here we are, man. We are in the post midterm America. 16 00:01:29,076 --> 00:01:32,356 Speaker 1: We are past that election day. Yeah, man, we're supposed 17 00:01:32,356 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: to be really happy about the fact that this is 18 00:01:34,436 --> 00:01:36,676 Speaker 1: the first time when things didn't go so well for 19 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 1: the party out of power. Right, you were a way 20 00:01:39,236 --> 00:01:41,356 Speaker 1: out of the country, But I was watching on TV 21 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:45,116 Speaker 1: that night, and you know, it was essentially like Democrats 22 00:01:45,116 --> 00:01:47,516 Speaker 1: were like high fiving one another. They were celebrating this 23 00:01:47,556 --> 00:01:50,916 Speaker 1: idea that this red wave hadn't happened, right, that there 24 00:01:50,996 --> 00:01:53,556 Speaker 1: wasn't the second coming of Trump. Yeah, it became a 25 00:01:53,596 --> 00:01:56,636 Speaker 1: red puddle, a red puddle. It was like expecting this 26 00:01:56,756 --> 00:02:00,316 Speaker 1: disaster and things turned out just to be shitty, and 27 00:02:00,356 --> 00:02:03,156 Speaker 1: we're supposed to be happy about that, exactly, exactly, And 28 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 1: the truth is that, you know, whatever we want to 29 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:08,716 Speaker 1: say about the Democratic Party being the party of democracy, 30 00:02:08,756 --> 00:02:11,796 Speaker 1: now they're going to lose power. Maybe less power than 31 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:14,796 Speaker 1: they thought, but they're going to lose power. That has 32 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:18,676 Speaker 1: real consequences for that for our future, and real consequences 33 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 1: for women's reproductive rights, real consequences for how we as 34 00:02:23,996 --> 00:02:26,396 Speaker 1: a country expect to pass on, you know, what it 35 00:02:26,476 --> 00:02:29,316 Speaker 1: means to have real rights in this country to our children. 36 00:02:29,836 --> 00:02:33,276 Speaker 1: It's sad, but to some degree, the bones of this 37 00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:36,596 Speaker 1: country seem to be rattling in such a way that 38 00:02:36,676 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: we aren't that much further along than some of the 39 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:40,876 Speaker 1: history we talk about on the show, you know, and 40 00:02:40,956 --> 00:02:43,476 Speaker 1: we often talk about race. Maybe that's the only thing 41 00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:45,916 Speaker 1: we talk about on this show, you know, but of 42 00:02:45,916 --> 00:02:49,156 Speaker 1: course it was. It permeated the entire election, right. I mean, 43 00:02:49,196 --> 00:02:51,236 Speaker 1: so there was this whole idea where whether you know, 44 00:02:51,236 --> 00:02:53,956 Speaker 1: there's fear mongering about crime, which was really fear mongering 45 00:02:53,956 --> 00:02:57,396 Speaker 1: about race, and whether it was rejected or not, which 46 00:02:57,396 --> 00:03:00,676 Speaker 1: really was much more interested in this idea of of 47 00:03:00,876 --> 00:03:03,356 Speaker 1: you know, using crime as a political tool, whether it 48 00:03:03,516 --> 00:03:06,116 Speaker 1: like you know, the Democrats weren't even necessarily concerned with 49 00:03:06,196 --> 00:03:08,596 Speaker 1: whether it was right or wrong to run away from 50 00:03:08,596 --> 00:03:11,036 Speaker 1: those issues that were embraced them. You know, in the 51 00:03:11,116 --> 00:03:14,956 Speaker 1: Georgia race with Stacy Abrams running for governor, seventy two 52 00:03:14,956 --> 00:03:17,556 Speaker 1: percent of white women did not vote for her. That 53 00:03:17,636 --> 00:03:20,756 Speaker 1: was an exit poll, and that was after getting rid 54 00:03:20,796 --> 00:03:24,196 Speaker 1: of Rov Wade. It's nuts, And I guess for me, 55 00:03:24,556 --> 00:03:27,516 Speaker 1: I think that what we're going to talk about today 56 00:03:27,556 --> 00:03:30,276 Speaker 1: with our guests gives us a chance to kind of 57 00:03:30,316 --> 00:03:32,796 Speaker 1: go back to first principles and like figure out, like 58 00:03:32,836 --> 00:03:34,716 Speaker 1: why do we keep repeating the past, why do we 59 00:03:34,796 --> 00:03:38,196 Speaker 1: keep falling prey to these moments of retrenchment. Well, that 60 00:03:38,236 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 1: gets us into today's episode, because we're about to dig 61 00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 1: into a history of text books in America and how 62 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: they really teach white supremacy. How they've perpetuated this idea 63 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:52,196 Speaker 1: for well over a century. And if you're a listener 64 00:03:52,276 --> 00:03:55,316 Speaker 1: right now thinking, okay, hold up, fellas, what does emitterms 65 00:03:55,356 --> 00:03:59,036 Speaker 1: have to do with history touched books? That's exactly the point. 66 00:03:59,076 --> 00:04:02,316 Speaker 1: They are the building blocks of our society. They are 67 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:05,236 Speaker 1: the texts that we all encounter at some point in 68 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:07,356 Speaker 1: our lives. This tell us what we owe each other 69 00:04:07,636 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 1: as citizens of this nation. And so we get to 70 00:04:10,236 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 1: talk to Donald Yakavone, a lifetime researcher at Harvard University's 71 00:04:15,156 --> 00:04:18,396 Speaker 1: Hutchin Center for African and African American Research. He's also 72 00:04:18,436 --> 00:04:21,316 Speaker 1: the author and editor of eleven books, and the book 73 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 1: that he just wrote is called Teaching White Supremacy, America's 74 00:04:24,396 --> 00:04:28,516 Speaker 1: Democratic Ordeal and the Forging of Our National Identity. So 75 00:04:28,836 --> 00:04:31,916 Speaker 1: he wrote this book because he was researching abolition, something 76 00:04:31,916 --> 00:04:34,516 Speaker 1: that he teaches about him has been studying for years. 77 00:04:34,756 --> 00:04:37,196 Speaker 1: And he went into this library at Harvard to look 78 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:40,756 Speaker 1: at a couple textbooks that were taught in classes in America, 79 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:43,196 Speaker 1: and they were like thousands of them, and he started 80 00:04:43,236 --> 00:04:45,636 Speaker 1: digging into them and what he ended up with was 81 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:49,396 Speaker 1: a book which is about the history of teaching white supremacy, 82 00:04:49,436 --> 00:04:53,156 Speaker 1: throughout American history. It's a really smart idea because essentially 83 00:04:53,396 --> 00:04:55,756 Speaker 1: it's a study of American identity, how it was formed, 84 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 1: what it means, how it was perpetuated one century to 85 00:04:58,956 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 1: the next. And again, I think this is a really 86 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:05,156 Speaker 1: fascinating concept, meaning to what degree do we owe our 87 00:05:05,196 --> 00:05:08,156 Speaker 1: current politics to what we've all been taught in our 88 00:05:08,276 --> 00:05:11,116 Speaker 1: history textbook? Yeah? And I felt like I was seeing 89 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:14,076 Speaker 1: this on TV last week and seeing it on all 90 00:05:14,116 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 1: over the country, like what we saw in this book 91 00:05:16,476 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: about how these ideas or continued to today they still 92 00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:24,436 Speaker 1: define our politics and they're going to define them going forward. Absolutely. Yeah. Man, 93 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 1: so let's talk to Donald Yacovone. Let's learn what he 94 00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:37,076 Speaker 1: learned to help us all be better. Welcome Donald Yacovone 95 00:05:37,156 --> 00:05:39,436 Speaker 1: to some of my best friends are It's so great 96 00:05:39,476 --> 00:05:41,996 Speaker 1: to have you on. And So you went and read 97 00:05:42,196 --> 00:05:46,356 Speaker 1: over two hundred American history textbooks published and taught in 98 00:05:46,436 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: American schools from basically the early eighteen hundreds to the 99 00:05:50,276 --> 00:05:53,796 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. Correct, and you know maybe in it just 100 00:05:53,916 --> 00:05:56,716 Speaker 1: like what was your big takeaway? Like how do you 101 00:05:56,756 --> 00:06:03,356 Speaker 1: sum up? Like what all that research led to? Shock? How? So? Yeah? Explain? 102 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:07,396 Speaker 1: So I thought why don't I start near the beginning, 103 00:06:07,876 --> 00:06:10,876 Speaker 1: And I picked the year eighteen thirty two because that 104 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:14,196 Speaker 1: was a year after the emergence of the radical anti 105 00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:18,876 Speaker 1: slavery movement and William Lloyd Garrison. In fact, throughout the 106 00:06:18,956 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 1: pre Civil War period there was never any discussion of 107 00:06:24,276 --> 00:06:29,276 Speaker 1: the anti slavery movement, no acknowledgement that it even existed. 108 00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:32,676 Speaker 1: So I went and I went through the eighteen thirties, 109 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:36,196 Speaker 1: the eighteen forties, and I thought, wait a minute, what 110 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:42,756 Speaker 1: am I seeing here? There is an extraordinary emphasis upon whiteness. 111 00:06:43,076 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not hidden, it's not assumed, it's overt 112 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:50,476 Speaker 1: and so collective we in all of these textbooks is 113 00:06:50,516 --> 00:06:57,236 Speaker 1: always a white collective. We absolutely American identity is white identity, exactly. Yeah, 114 00:06:57,396 --> 00:07:03,076 Speaker 1: unless they specifically refer to red savages, which is the 115 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:07,036 Speaker 1: usual way they refer to native inhabitants in North America. 116 00:07:07,156 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 1: Khalil and I were in public schools in Chica Go 117 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:12,476 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. We're reading history textbooks. Yeah, and 118 00:07:12,556 --> 00:07:15,156 Speaker 1: Khalil like where we didn't go to the same middle school. 119 00:07:15,156 --> 00:07:17,236 Speaker 1: He went to the same high school. And I definitely 120 00:07:17,236 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 1: remember Frederick Douglas and I remember studying slavery. And I 121 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:26,836 Speaker 1: also remember, you know, this sort of pervading idea that 122 00:07:27,156 --> 00:07:29,316 Speaker 1: you know, post civil rights when we were in school, 123 00:07:29,396 --> 00:07:32,156 Speaker 1: like all the bad shit happened back then, you know, 124 00:07:32,156 --> 00:07:35,116 Speaker 1: in the unenlightened past. You know, we were not part 125 00:07:35,156 --> 00:07:37,036 Speaker 1: of that because we were sort of on the other 126 00:07:37,156 --> 00:07:40,156 Speaker 1: end of this. Yeah. I actually thought about this in 127 00:07:40,236 --> 00:07:43,116 Speaker 1: light of a conversation I had with Mark Moreale, who 128 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 1: is the current president of the National Urban League. I 129 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:49,476 Speaker 1: was talking to him a couple months ago about actually 130 00:07:49,476 --> 00:07:52,076 Speaker 1: this very topic, about the problem of how do you 131 00:07:52,156 --> 00:07:55,076 Speaker 1: teach American history and light of the backlash to talking 132 00:07:55,116 --> 00:07:57,916 Speaker 1: about it at all, and he kind of laughed and 133 00:07:57,956 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 1: he said, you know, that's funny. You remind me of 134 00:08:00,796 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: when I was in high school in New Orleans where 135 00:08:04,636 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 1: he came of age, and he said, one day they 136 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 1: were talking about the Civil War and the topic came 137 00:08:11,316 --> 00:08:14,396 Speaker 1: up and it was defined as the War of Northern Aggression, 138 00:08:14,916 --> 00:08:18,236 Speaker 1: and he said he was the only person in the 139 00:08:18,236 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 1: classroom to raise his hand to say, wait a minute, 140 00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:24,396 Speaker 1: that is not what the Civil War was. He felt alone, 141 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean I could also remember when 142 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 1: Roots aired on television and that being sort of much 143 00:08:30,236 --> 00:08:33,916 Speaker 1: more powerful and sort of talking about the enslaved experience 144 00:08:33,956 --> 00:08:37,556 Speaker 1: and sort of creating dialogue, creating conversation throughout my family 145 00:08:37,596 --> 00:08:41,116 Speaker 1: at school, like in classrooms even. I mean, that felt 146 00:08:41,156 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 1: like way more momentous than what was happening in a textbook. Yeah. Yeah. 147 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:47,956 Speaker 1: The kind of attention that Roots gave to the African 148 00:08:47,956 --> 00:08:52,636 Speaker 1: American experience in slavery and after had never been done, 149 00:08:53,036 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 1: nothing approaching it had ever been done. You know, I 150 00:08:55,396 --> 00:08:57,636 Speaker 1: have two historians in front of me right now, and 151 00:08:57,676 --> 00:09:00,556 Speaker 1: I want to ask a question about textbooks in general 152 00:09:00,636 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 1: as like a medium for history, even as a subject 153 00:09:04,316 --> 00:09:07,436 Speaker 1: for studying history. One of our producers, Lucy, heard that 154 00:09:07,476 --> 00:09:09,356 Speaker 1: we were going to talk about history textbook and she 155 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:11,436 Speaker 1: was like, oh, no, they're so boring. She has sort 156 00:09:11,476 --> 00:09:14,436 Speaker 1: of lists like clashback to her own high school experience. 157 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: And I think about textbooks that are in classrooms and 158 00:09:18,436 --> 00:09:21,436 Speaker 1: there's both sort of this ideological factor of them what's 159 00:09:21,476 --> 00:09:24,156 Speaker 1: going on in the world. There's also a commercial element 160 00:09:24,196 --> 00:09:27,676 Speaker 1: to it, right, Like you have publishers who are mostly 161 00:09:27,676 --> 00:09:29,636 Speaker 1: in the North who are like, we want to sell 162 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:32,476 Speaker 1: as many of these as possible, and so there's that demand. 163 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:36,276 Speaker 1: And we also have fifty states and each state each 164 00:09:36,436 --> 00:09:39,796 Speaker 1: basically like school district can sort of set its own curriculum, 165 00:09:39,876 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: So there are thousands of school districts, and then we 166 00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:45,436 Speaker 1: hear things like even about texts. You know, when they 167 00:09:45,476 --> 00:09:47,916 Speaker 1: set their curriculum each year. There's such a big market 168 00:09:47,956 --> 00:09:51,276 Speaker 1: for the textbooks that what they decide in their curriculum 169 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 1: is going to shape what is actually like written in 170 00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:56,796 Speaker 1: a textbook that's published in New York City. This is today. 171 00:09:57,436 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: I'm saying all that to ask, like, what does it 172 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:02,916 Speaker 1: mean to study textbooks for both of you, like your historians, 173 00:10:03,076 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 1: what do you get out of a history textbook that's 174 00:10:05,716 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: taught to children in American classrooms? Well, I think for 175 00:10:10,836 --> 00:10:15,076 Speaker 1: younger students it is a convenience. It is a way 176 00:10:15,116 --> 00:10:20,636 Speaker 1: to encapsulate the record in a manageable signs. I think 177 00:10:20,676 --> 00:10:24,556 Speaker 1: once you get to college, a textbook isn't necessarily demanded. 178 00:10:24,876 --> 00:10:27,476 Speaker 1: I taught at college. I didn't always use a textbook 179 00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:32,356 Speaker 1: in the introductory class. It's not essential. However, textbooks as 180 00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:37,516 Speaker 1: a genre are designed not just to present the record 181 00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:43,436 Speaker 1: of the past, but they inevitably encapsulate the way Americans 182 00:10:43,516 --> 00:10:49,836 Speaker 1: think about themselves, their values, their aspirations, their meaning, their identity, 183 00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:54,476 Speaker 1: and that was clear from over two hundred textbooks that 184 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:57,236 Speaker 1: I saw. What about the lag time different than say 185 00:10:57,316 --> 00:11:00,196 Speaker 1: studying newspapers of a day or you know today like 186 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:03,876 Speaker 1: social media or television. The amount of times if you're 187 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 1: studying textbooks and reconstruction, it's not like they're you know, 188 00:11:07,596 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 1: the amount of time it takes to sort of that, 189 00:11:10,036 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 1: write it, publish it, distribute it. It could take five 190 00:11:13,796 --> 00:11:18,156 Speaker 1: even ten years, right, Oh, absolutely, yeah. In fact, that's 191 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:22,636 Speaker 1: why I think some of the most effective textbooks during 192 00:11:22,676 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 1: this post Civil war period came out not in the 193 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:30,356 Speaker 1: later eighteen sixties, not even in the early eighteen seventies, 194 00:11:30,396 --> 00:11:34,076 Speaker 1: but really in the eighteen eighties, even after we recognize 195 00:11:34,076 --> 00:11:37,996 Speaker 1: as reconstruction had already ended. It does take a long time, 196 00:11:38,276 --> 00:11:41,516 Speaker 1: and at the same time they are in competition with 197 00:11:41,596 --> 00:11:46,356 Speaker 1: other textbooks that are taking a completely different interpretation of 198 00:11:46,396 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 1: this very controversial historical period. So it's confusing. And it's 199 00:11:52,236 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 1: added to by the fact that, certainly in the nineteenth 200 00:11:55,916 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 1: century and the early twentieth century, as today, textbook publishers 201 00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:07,116 Speaker 1: often produced one version for the northern audience and another 202 00:12:07,236 --> 00:12:10,916 Speaker 1: version for the southern audience, and some of these authors 203 00:12:11,116 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 1: were horrified at what the publishers were doing to their 204 00:12:14,916 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 1: own textbooks. Khalil, what do you think I mean when 205 00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 1: we talk about textbooks as history. Well, I was going 206 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:24,956 Speaker 1: to say to our producer Lucy's provocation, the textbooks are boring. 207 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:27,916 Speaker 1: I mean what I think is interesting about that is 208 00:12:27,956 --> 00:12:29,996 Speaker 1: I think they're meant to be boring. I mean, first 209 00:12:30,036 --> 00:12:34,996 Speaker 1: of all, they reflect the consensus view of the authors, 210 00:12:35,556 --> 00:12:37,956 Speaker 1: in the sense that the authors might be politically left 211 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:40,956 Speaker 1: leaning or politically right leaning, but they are meant by 212 00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:45,036 Speaker 1: design to be the most anodyne interpretation of the past, 213 00:12:45,156 --> 00:12:46,956 Speaker 1: at least in the way that the general public would 214 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:50,276 Speaker 1: understand them. And they are also meant in a way 215 00:12:50,316 --> 00:12:55,676 Speaker 1: to do the kind of civic nationalism work that is 216 00:12:56,316 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 1: part and parcel of what public education is all about 217 00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:02,396 Speaker 1: in the first place, which is to say, to reinforce 218 00:13:02,516 --> 00:13:06,436 Speaker 1: the dominant narratives of the nation to absolute Donald so 219 00:13:06,636 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 1: eloquently describes to define American identity. And in this way, 220 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:15,956 Speaker 1: to emphasize whiteness is also to emphasize kind of the 221 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:18,836 Speaker 1: air that we're all breathing. A textbook is, by its 222 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:21,436 Speaker 1: definition then conservative in that sense. I don't mean conservative 223 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:26,676 Speaker 1: like you know, republican conservative, but like retaining yes, absolutely yes, 224 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:29,876 Speaker 1: just as social studies curriculum for the vast majority of 225 00:13:29,876 --> 00:13:35,276 Speaker 1: Americans and newcomers from past to present remains primarily conservative 226 00:13:35,396 --> 00:13:38,076 Speaker 1: in that it is reinforcing a dominant narrative of the 227 00:13:38,196 --> 00:13:41,796 Speaker 1: nation of its core values. It is not meant to 228 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:47,276 Speaker 1: be the pretext for revolution or change. And actually, what 229 00:13:47,396 --> 00:13:49,116 Speaker 1: I kind of want to pick up on this point 230 00:13:49,316 --> 00:13:52,036 Speaker 1: been extended a little further for Donald because he writes 231 00:13:52,076 --> 00:13:57,276 Speaker 1: extensively about someone he describes as the first professional racist. 232 00:13:57,276 --> 00:14:00,236 Speaker 1: In many ways, this character in your book kind of 233 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:04,036 Speaker 1: sits right at the turning point in America between the 234 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:08,476 Speaker 1: slave past and the post slavery future, and you kind 235 00:14:08,516 --> 00:14:10,916 Speaker 1: of describe the guy is like the Steve Bannon and 236 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:15,556 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch and Joseph Goebbels of Nazi infamy of his day, 237 00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 1: someone who has so much reach an influence that he 238 00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 1: is shaping the hearts and minds of an entire generation 239 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:27,516 Speaker 1: of Americans and maybe in that way not so conservative. Yeah, Well, 240 00:14:27,516 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: this is John H. Van every and he's there for 241 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:35,876 Speaker 1: two reasons. One, just as Khalil has said, he's influential, 242 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:41,236 Speaker 1: he's terribly influential. But two, he is also representative, and 243 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 1: that's what I think some people tend to miss. He's 244 00:14:45,556 --> 00:14:49,636 Speaker 1: a manifestation of the culture as much as a shaper 245 00:14:49,836 --> 00:14:54,796 Speaker 1: of the culture. And he also embodies and symbolizes the 246 00:14:54,876 --> 00:14:59,876 Speaker 1: emphasis that I am putting on Northern responsibility for the 247 00:15:00,076 --> 00:15:05,836 Speaker 1: creation and perpetuation of white supremacy. It is commonplace today 248 00:15:06,396 --> 00:15:11,636 Speaker 1: for many Americans to look Southern slavery and Southern resistance 249 00:15:11,916 --> 00:15:17,876 Speaker 1: to integration as the source of today's what we call racism, 250 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:21,196 Speaker 1: when in fact, I argue and the evidence is so 251 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:28,076 Speaker 1: overwhelming in any field that you can pick, whether it's religion, literature, science, education, 252 00:15:28,636 --> 00:15:34,436 Speaker 1: the domination of Northern attitudes is supreme. Van every had 253 00:15:34,476 --> 00:15:37,596 Speaker 1: been trained as a doctor. He was Canadian born, so 254 00:15:37,596 --> 00:15:40,596 Speaker 1: you don't get any more northern than that. And he 255 00:15:40,756 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 1: set up a small publishing empire right in the middle 256 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:48,916 Speaker 1: of Manhattan. He published several books of his own, countless 257 00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 1: pamphlets which are derivative of the books that he wrote, 258 00:15:51,796 --> 00:15:56,756 Speaker 1: and two newspapers. Plus he advertised his books and his 259 00:15:56,876 --> 00:16:02,276 Speaker 1: pamphlets in almost all of the America's newspapers. In one 260 00:16:02,436 --> 00:16:08,436 Speaker 1: year alone, he put advertisements in fourteen hundred different American 261 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:12,436 Speaker 1: newspaper just one year. He's like Donald Trump during the 262 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:17,436 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. Yeah. Absolutely, Lincoln had read him. He was 263 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:20,436 Speaker 1: quoted on the floor of Congress, he was quoted in 264 00:16:20,516 --> 00:16:25,316 Speaker 1: state legislatures and read throughout the country. And his works 265 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:29,956 Speaker 1: were republished long after his death in the nineteen twenties, 266 00:16:29,996 --> 00:16:34,276 Speaker 1: so by the Daughters of the Confederacy. So you have 267 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:40,396 Speaker 1: Northerners influencing and telling the South essentially how to view 268 00:16:40,796 --> 00:16:44,996 Speaker 1: the evilness of Abraham Lincoln and the Northern aggression against 269 00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:48,276 Speaker 1: the Civil War and during the Civil War. It's astonishing 270 00:16:48,676 --> 00:16:51,996 Speaker 1: about his reach. It's just amazing. I want to lean 271 00:16:52,036 --> 00:16:54,436 Speaker 1: into that for just one second longer, because I think 272 00:16:54,716 --> 00:16:57,556 Speaker 1: you have hit on something with van every that I 273 00:16:57,596 --> 00:17:00,756 Speaker 1: think is really powerful and important, and that is that, 274 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:04,036 Speaker 1: as you say, between eighteen fifty eight and eighteen seventy nine, 275 00:17:04,076 --> 00:17:07,356 Speaker 1: any American who read a newspaper was likely to encounter 276 00:17:07,396 --> 00:17:10,036 Speaker 1: his work, either because there was direct mention of it 277 00:17:10,276 --> 00:17:13,596 Speaker 1: his own writing or these advertisements selling his books. And 278 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:17,436 Speaker 1: between eighteen sixty six and eighteen sixty seven he published 279 00:17:17,556 --> 00:17:20,076 Speaker 1: first a textbook youth history of the Great Civil War 280 00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:22,756 Speaker 1: in the United States, and then the next year a 281 00:17:22,796 --> 00:17:26,916 Speaker 1: book called white supremacy and Negro subordination. Your point about 282 00:17:26,996 --> 00:17:32,996 Speaker 1: this Canadian transplant to Manhattan, whose ambitions and reach in 283 00:17:33,116 --> 00:17:35,916 Speaker 1: terms of again we could say his social media influence 284 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:39,556 Speaker 1: at that time, for the technology of that era actually 285 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 1: helps to circulate white supremacy from north to south at 286 00:17:44,876 --> 00:17:47,316 Speaker 1: a time that then will help, as you just said, 287 00:17:47,356 --> 00:17:50,836 Speaker 1: give rise to movements of the Lost Cause, the Daughters 288 00:17:50,836 --> 00:17:54,716 Speaker 1: of the Confederacy who were single handedly responsible for fundraising 289 00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 1: to build Confederate monuments all around the country. That is 290 00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:02,916 Speaker 1: really remarkable, I think for most people and most listeners 291 00:18:02,996 --> 00:18:06,876 Speaker 1: to think about the relationship of Northern publishing to the 292 00:18:06,956 --> 00:18:11,036 Speaker 1: dissemination of white supremacist idea that even Southerners are learning 293 00:18:11,116 --> 00:18:15,476 Speaker 1: and therefore beginning to teach to their own children and grandchildren, 294 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 1: and the cycle just continues, absolutely, and it's so important, 295 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:24,916 Speaker 1: I think for us to understand that a current social 296 00:18:24,956 --> 00:18:30,356 Speaker 1: crisis that we're undergoing, the long history of racial repression 297 00:18:30,716 --> 00:18:35,636 Speaker 1: that we have experienced, is not the fault of some 298 00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:39,156 Speaker 1: kind of external force. It is not the fault of 299 00:18:39,876 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 1: slave masters long gone. This is not a sectional problem. 300 00:18:45,556 --> 00:18:50,916 Speaker 1: This is a national problem, and it takes national commitment 301 00:18:51,596 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 1: north and south to recognize all our responsibility for the 302 00:18:56,356 --> 00:19:00,236 Speaker 1: creation of our modern culture. We can't foist it off 303 00:19:00,636 --> 00:19:04,756 Speaker 1: on some long dead past. This is alive, this is real. 304 00:19:05,036 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 1: We are all responsible for this, not one section. Yeah, yeah, No, 305 00:19:10,076 --> 00:19:13,156 Speaker 1: I think that's powerful. So Donald, we've kind of made 306 00:19:13,156 --> 00:19:16,636 Speaker 1: it seem obvious that this was a bad dude, you know, 307 00:19:16,676 --> 00:19:20,236 Speaker 1: a bad ombrey in the word of Trump, in the 308 00:19:20,276 --> 00:19:23,396 Speaker 1: sense that a modern listener today would say, yeah, every 309 00:19:23,516 --> 00:19:26,436 Speaker 1: you know, thank god he's no longer here. But of 310 00:19:26,476 --> 00:19:28,316 Speaker 1: course our point is his ideas are still here, and 311 00:19:28,356 --> 00:19:30,996 Speaker 1: we haven't talked about his ideas, So let's just zero 312 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:33,676 Speaker 1: in on one. I think in particular because as I 313 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:37,596 Speaker 1: understand what he was selling, First of all, he didn't 314 00:19:37,636 --> 00:19:40,316 Speaker 1: want to use the word slave to describe African Americans. 315 00:19:40,396 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 1: That seems totally bananas, right, because no one thinks of 316 00:19:43,556 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: the word slave or slavery is controversial either to white 317 00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:49,996 Speaker 1: Southerners or to Northerners, who are you know, ambivalent or 318 00:19:50,036 --> 00:19:53,116 Speaker 1: even hostile to black freedom. So what is this deal 319 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:57,236 Speaker 1: with him thinking that the word slave is inappropriate to 320 00:19:57,276 --> 00:20:00,596 Speaker 1: describe who black people were in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries? 321 00:20:01,036 --> 00:20:05,076 Speaker 1: Great question, van every when he used the word slave, 322 00:20:05,476 --> 00:20:08,876 Speaker 1: and he explained this. He said it referred to a 323 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:14,356 Speaker 1: long past aspect of European culture, ancient European culture, only 324 00:20:14,516 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 1: white people enslaved other people, other white people, that there 325 00:20:19,476 --> 00:20:25,076 Speaker 1: was a category of subordination within European people's exactly, this 326 00:20:25,156 --> 00:20:28,476 Speaker 1: is a white institution. To his mind, you can no 327 00:20:28,676 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 1: more enslave a person of African descent than you can 328 00:20:32,876 --> 00:20:37,956 Speaker 1: a cow or sheep, because he argued, just like in 329 00:20:37,996 --> 00:20:41,756 Speaker 1: the rest of the animal world, you have various species 330 00:20:41,836 --> 00:20:45,516 Speaker 1: of animals, And his argument was that people of African 331 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 1: descent were humans. They were just an inferior lower form 332 00:20:50,276 --> 00:20:56,156 Speaker 1: of human, a completely separate species. And this was the 333 00:20:56,196 --> 00:21:01,836 Speaker 1: fate that nature and God, he argued, dictated to the nation. 334 00:21:02,116 --> 00:21:05,276 Speaker 1: People of African descent were born to do the white 335 00:21:05,276 --> 00:21:08,916 Speaker 1: man's labor. Those are his words. Yeah, because slaves suggest 336 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:13,116 Speaker 1: immunition of a higher position that now you've been subordinated to. 337 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:16,796 Speaker 1: But if you're already starting out as the floor of 338 00:21:16,836 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 1: some representation of humanity, even in his most adminished form, 339 00:21:20,916 --> 00:21:23,556 Speaker 1: you can't go down. You're already at the bottom, rock bottom, 340 00:21:23,836 --> 00:21:27,196 Speaker 1: as they say. So one more thing on this, because 341 00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:30,276 Speaker 1: I think this is where the past and the present 342 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 1: meet in his ideas, and the reason why I think 343 00:21:32,676 --> 00:21:35,276 Speaker 1: it's important for listeners not to dismiss this is like, oh, 344 00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:38,956 Speaker 1: that's interesting. You know, that stuff doesn't exist anymore. But 345 00:21:39,316 --> 00:21:44,396 Speaker 1: if we think about white supremacist neo Nazi replacement theory today, 346 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 1: which is animating our politics right now, that white people 347 00:21:47,316 --> 00:21:49,756 Speaker 1: will be the minority population and they will be overrun 348 00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:52,876 Speaker 1: by brown and black people in the near future, that 349 00:21:53,116 --> 00:21:56,996 Speaker 1: these sets of concerns today are tied to every in 350 00:21:57,036 --> 00:22:01,796 Speaker 1: the sense that his point was to say that black 351 00:22:01,836 --> 00:22:08,516 Speaker 1: people had actually helped make white equality possible by being 352 00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:14,076 Speaker 1: a force for wealth creation and for solving the aristocratic 353 00:22:14,116 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 1: problems of the past, because now white people would agree 354 00:22:17,556 --> 00:22:20,556 Speaker 1: that they were equal and superior as long as the 355 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:24,436 Speaker 1: black person was in this inferior position. Did I get 356 00:22:24,476 --> 00:22:28,316 Speaker 1: that right? You sure did. He would argue, just like 357 00:22:28,556 --> 00:22:32,356 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison would later argue that you could not have 358 00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:37,276 Speaker 1: democratic culture without the African presence, ironically, and if there 359 00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 1: were no people of African descent, they would have created 360 00:22:40,196 --> 00:22:44,436 Speaker 1: a people to fill that role, to show white people 361 00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 1: that the difference between themselves was not so great as 362 00:22:47,956 --> 00:22:52,356 Speaker 1: it was between themselves and this other quote foreign element. Yeah, 363 00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:59,596 Speaker 1: I think that's really, really, really really important. Yeah, after 364 00:22:59,636 --> 00:23:01,676 Speaker 1: the break, we're going to hear from a young person 365 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:06,516 Speaker 1: who's actually trying to bring attention to the everyday racism 366 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:09,036 Speaker 1: that exists in America, especially in light of the race 367 00:23:09,316 --> 00:23:25,996 Speaker 1: justice movement or Black Lives Matter movement. Welcome back to 368 00:23:26,076 --> 00:23:29,596 Speaker 1: some of my best friends are so donald. There's this 369 00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:33,916 Speaker 1: video that's been circulating on social media. It shows clearly 370 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 1: that white supremacy is alive and well in the United States. Obviously, 371 00:23:38,436 --> 00:23:40,956 Speaker 1: we didn't need much proof for that, but Khalil and 372 00:23:40,996 --> 00:23:43,676 Speaker 1: I saw this video. I shared it with him. We 373 00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:46,076 Speaker 1: watched it at the same time, and we thought it'd 374 00:23:46,116 --> 00:23:48,956 Speaker 1: be kind of amazing to talk about with you. It's 375 00:23:48,996 --> 00:23:52,276 Speaker 1: a video taken in what's labeled the most racist city 376 00:23:52,316 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 1: in America, Harrison, Arkansas, the headquarters of the Ku Klux Klan. 377 00:23:57,356 --> 00:24:00,436 Speaker 1: And in it, there's this young white man. He's holding 378 00:24:00,516 --> 00:24:04,596 Speaker 1: up a Black Lives Matter sign and he's video taking 379 00:24:04,636 --> 00:24:07,436 Speaker 1: this and over the course of the video, people are 380 00:24:07,436 --> 00:24:09,996 Speaker 1: stopping in their cars, one hundred percent of them are white, 381 00:24:10,236 --> 00:24:13,236 Speaker 1: and they're all yelling at him. They're berating him, they're 382 00:24:13,276 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 1: saying incredibly racist things. Let's play this video about ten minutes. 383 00:24:18,236 --> 00:24:21,276 Speaker 1: I will be back. You better be fucking gone. Okay, 384 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:32,836 Speaker 1: come back. We matter. You're a white thing? Ship? Are 385 00:24:32,876 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 1: you the Marxist? I meant domestic terrorists. Bad to Chicago 386 00:24:37,756 --> 00:24:41,076 Speaker 1: or New York for COVID enough for the chips, find 387 00:24:41,196 --> 00:24:47,076 Speaker 1: Jesus him? All right, all lives matter, not just black 388 00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:55,076 Speaker 1: You're why what do you think Donald Well? I think 389 00:24:55,156 --> 00:24:57,516 Speaker 1: you probably could have done that in Chicago as well 390 00:24:57,596 --> 00:25:01,236 Speaker 1: as uh Arkansas. Yeah, it's all the evidence one needs 391 00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:06,196 Speaker 1: about the problem remaining that the ideas that textbooks and 392 00:25:06,276 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 1: Americans have absorbed for the last three hundred years remain 393 00:25:10,676 --> 00:25:15,196 Speaker 1: m Yeah, it is still the case that And this 394 00:25:15,596 --> 00:25:18,716 Speaker 1: is why I think the book I did is so important. 395 00:25:19,116 --> 00:25:22,316 Speaker 1: It is the background for our current crisis. It is 396 00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:25,796 Speaker 1: the reason why we have our current crisis, and it 397 00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 1: is the reason why people like that who identify themselves 398 00:25:29,876 --> 00:25:34,116 Speaker 1: as white and is the essence of legitimacy, and that 399 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:38,916 Speaker 1: everyone else who isn't is not. That goes back three 400 00:25:39,036 --> 00:25:41,796 Speaker 1: hundred years. You know. One of the things that struck me, 401 00:25:41,996 --> 00:25:46,396 Speaker 1: in addition to just like this demonstration of our racism, 402 00:25:46,516 --> 00:25:48,876 Speaker 1: it's being caught on video and because we have social media, 403 00:25:48,956 --> 00:25:50,956 Speaker 1: can disseminate so quickly, and you can just see an 404 00:25:50,996 --> 00:25:54,476 Speaker 1: example of how deeply racist the country is. But like 405 00:25:54,676 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 1: your book, thinking about textbooks, the way that white people 406 00:25:58,636 --> 00:26:02,876 Speaker 1: in white culture sort of polices itself, sort of shows 407 00:26:02,956 --> 00:26:07,556 Speaker 1: what the boundaries are of behavior and teaching other white people, 408 00:26:08,236 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 1: you know, how to stay within those bounds, like this 409 00:26:11,516 --> 00:26:15,196 Speaker 1: is acceptable behavior. Khalil I sent it to you, Like, 410 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:17,676 Speaker 1: what did you think. I was like a little bit 411 00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:21,716 Speaker 1: surprised at how visceral the racism was, because these are 412 00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:25,236 Speaker 1: not people who are being confronted by a young man 413 00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:27,876 Speaker 1: handing out a leaflet, but he's just standing there holding 414 00:26:27,916 --> 00:26:32,556 Speaker 1: the sign, and in that holding the sign apparently provokes 415 00:26:32,756 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 1: this visceral white racist rage where people are calling him everything, 416 00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:41,636 Speaker 1: you know, from the N word, reminding him he's white, 417 00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:43,996 Speaker 1: to calling him a communist. I mean, I guess I 418 00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:47,596 Speaker 1: was in that way surprised at how little has changed 419 00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:50,436 Speaker 1: over the last fifty years since the Civil Rights era 420 00:26:50,556 --> 00:26:55,316 Speaker 1: in terms of these deeply ingrained notions that you actually 421 00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:59,596 Speaker 1: are trader to the white race if you believe in 422 00:27:00,476 --> 00:27:05,596 Speaker 1: the commitments of racial justice that purportedly the country stands for. Yeah, 423 00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:08,076 Speaker 1: like what people do in the video, it wasn't just 424 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:11,636 Speaker 1: thinking something or muttering to yourself. They were moved to 425 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:13,876 Speaker 1: stop in the middle of a road, to roll down 426 00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: their window and to confront another person and to threaten violence. 427 00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:19,236 Speaker 1: Right to threaten, in this case, to threaten white on 428 00:27:19,396 --> 00:27:22,356 Speaker 1: white violence. Yeah, if you're here, you know, a couple hours, 429 00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:24,036 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be back and I'm gonna kill you. Yeah. 430 00:27:24,076 --> 00:27:25,516 Speaker 1: I mean I was trying to you know, Donald, you 431 00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:27,796 Speaker 1: said like this could happen anywhere, It could happen in Chicago. 432 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 1: I was trying to think of, like what the liberal 433 00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:33,636 Speaker 1: equivalent would be. I could give you an example. Okay, 434 00:27:33,676 --> 00:27:37,276 Speaker 1: I spent almost seven years and tell hassee Florida. I'm 435 00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:39,876 Speaker 1: not sure that counts as a liberal example, Donald, but 436 00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:50,596 Speaker 1: hang on. At that point, Panhandle culture was deep South. Okay, 437 00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:53,876 Speaker 1: we think of Florida. Everybody thinks of southern Florida, and 438 00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:56,356 Speaker 1: as everyone knows, the further south you go, the more 439 00:27:56,476 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 1: north you are. But in Panhandle culture, this was deep South. 440 00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:04,156 Speaker 1: This was South Georgia, no difference really to speak of, 441 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 1: and I almost never heard any kind of racial remarks 442 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:15,396 Speaker 1: by white people. Nineteen ninety one, I moved to Boston, Massachusetts, 443 00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:19,836 Speaker 1: and it was everywhere. Give you an example. How so see, 444 00:28:19,916 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 1: I'll give you a perfect example. I was standing in 445 00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 1: the North End waiting to go into a restaurant and 446 00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:27,956 Speaker 1: a car stopped. A black man got out and ran 447 00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:32,836 Speaker 1: into a store that sold magazines and newspapers, and a 448 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:35,116 Speaker 1: guy who was standing in line next to me said, 449 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:37,276 Speaker 1: what the hell's he going in there for? He can't read? 450 00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:40,276 Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, yeah wow, yeah. I think there's something 451 00:28:40,396 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 1: also different. I mean hearing racist stuff. I mean, I'll 452 00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:45,716 Speaker 1: give you an example. This is just my own experience. 453 00:28:45,956 --> 00:28:47,636 Speaker 1: I was driving with my kids. I live on the 454 00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:50,636 Speaker 1: South side of Chicago, and we were actually going through 455 00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:53,876 Speaker 1: the part that's the campus of the University of Chicago, 456 00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:56,836 Speaker 1: and we saw a young man in a Maga hat. 457 00:28:57,716 --> 00:29:00,956 Speaker 1: And you know, this was sort of still the Trump administration, 458 00:29:01,076 --> 00:29:03,116 Speaker 1: but like you know all the rage that that invokes, 459 00:29:03,436 --> 00:29:06,316 Speaker 1: and my reaction was like seeing a giraffe or something. 460 00:29:06,356 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 1: I was like, look, kids, look, I was actually excited. 461 00:29:08,676 --> 00:29:10,836 Speaker 1: I was like, look, there's one Like look, there's a 462 00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:13,236 Speaker 1: kid with a maga hat. And I didn't feel like 463 00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:15,356 Speaker 1: there was nothing in me that was like let me, 464 00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:18,236 Speaker 1: let me attack this young man, let me like put 465 00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:20,276 Speaker 1: him in his place. And try to teach him something 466 00:29:20,396 --> 00:29:22,836 Speaker 1: and like shake him. This would be the equivalent, I 467 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:25,636 Speaker 1: would think would be the luxury of not feeling like 468 00:29:25,836 --> 00:29:29,316 Speaker 1: that's the status quo of where I live. But in 469 00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:32,476 Speaker 1: this town in Arkansas, like, there was no threat from 470 00:29:32,516 --> 00:29:35,236 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter. This kid was a total anomaly. Yeah. 471 00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:38,596 Speaker 1: That's one of the great ironies of the moment we 472 00:29:38,676 --> 00:29:42,516 Speaker 1: are in now, where a lot of white people are 473 00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:50,036 Speaker 1: triggered by criticisms of structural racism and then call the 474 00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:53,716 Speaker 1: people criticizing structural racism racists and call them up on 475 00:29:53,796 --> 00:29:57,556 Speaker 1: the phone and threaten their lives for being the racist. 476 00:29:58,916 --> 00:30:01,596 Speaker 1: Or you're getting them hate mail. You're triggered here. No, No, 477 00:30:01,916 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 1: you're not. You're talking about your like stuff you've gotten no. 478 00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:06,436 Speaker 1: But but I'm just I'm one of them. I'm sure 479 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:09,436 Speaker 1: Donald has gotten. Donald. Have you gotten hate mail for 480 00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:15,116 Speaker 1: publishing this book? I got one so far. Yeah. I mean, so, 481 00:30:15,636 --> 00:30:18,476 Speaker 1: what you're saying, man, is like not being triggered to 482 00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:21,236 Speaker 1: violence because some trumper was wearing a MAGA hat in 483 00:30:21,276 --> 00:30:25,516 Speaker 1: your presence. Demonstrate something about you and at least the 484 00:30:25,516 --> 00:30:29,436 Speaker 1: subculture that you represent. Whereas for the people who we 485 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:34,756 Speaker 1: actually could objectively say are articulating racist views actually threatened 486 00:30:34,836 --> 00:30:37,116 Speaker 1: violence to say that they're not racist, the ship don't 487 00:30:37,156 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 1: make no sense. But here we are, So we are 488 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:45,876 Speaker 1: living in a moment of extreme backlash. We are living 489 00:30:45,916 --> 00:30:49,196 Speaker 1: in a moment where it's not just this kind of 490 00:30:49,316 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 1: existential political movement of white nationalists who think they have 491 00:30:53,556 --> 00:30:56,836 Speaker 1: to hold onto the country because people like me are 492 00:30:56,876 --> 00:30:59,996 Speaker 1: eventually going to take over. But we're also living in 493 00:31:00,076 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 1: a moment where the backlash is legislative. It is actually 494 00:31:04,156 --> 00:31:08,436 Speaker 1: doubling down on the kinds of textbook narratives, the ones 495 00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:11,596 Speaker 1: that subscribe to white supremacist points of view, or at 496 00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:14,916 Speaker 1: least the ones that erase the contributions of people of color, 497 00:31:14,996 --> 00:31:18,036 Speaker 1: whether they are black or indigenous or Mexican Americans, as 498 00:31:18,316 --> 00:31:21,276 Speaker 1: is what happened in Arizona about a decade ago, when 499 00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:25,236 Speaker 1: they basically made ethnic studies like to teach Mexican American 500 00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:28,716 Speaker 1: descended children that any part of their history is divisive. 501 00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:32,636 Speaker 1: And it's like that video articulates, I think exactly your 502 00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:36,396 Speaker 1: point that if we don't deal with these histories, we 503 00:31:36,556 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 1: are going to continue to produce people like those in 504 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:41,436 Speaker 1: that video, and we're going to continue to have a 505 00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:45,956 Speaker 1: politics of backlash and in support of structural racism. Absolutely, 506 00:31:46,276 --> 00:31:50,316 Speaker 1: and I think the potential could be even worse because 507 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:53,956 Speaker 1: people of this frame of mind, who believe that they're 508 00:31:54,076 --> 00:31:58,436 Speaker 1: very identities, as James Baldwin remark back in the sixties, 509 00:31:58,676 --> 00:32:04,196 Speaker 1: that they're very identities, are being taken from them or threatened. Right, Okay, 510 00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:10,276 Speaker 1: we'll do anything to preserve the old order. Oh Man, Donald, 511 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:12,676 Speaker 1: I am so glad you mentioned James Baldwin because I 512 00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:15,756 Speaker 1: teach him in every class. And there's this particular quote 513 00:32:15,796 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 1: from an appearance he makes on The Dick Cavett Show 514 00:32:17,876 --> 00:32:20,396 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight, and here's a clip from it 515 00:32:20,716 --> 00:32:23,076 Speaker 1: from our oldpex's film, I Am Not Your Negro. The 516 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:25,476 Speaker 1: question you gotta ask yourself, the white population of this 517 00:32:25,556 --> 00:32:29,076 Speaker 1: company's got to ask itself North and South, because it's 518 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:31,796 Speaker 1: one country and one negro. There's a didence in the 519 00:32:31,876 --> 00:32:34,476 Speaker 1: North in the South. There's just a difference in the 520 00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:37,436 Speaker 1: way they in a way they castrate too, but that's 521 00:32:37,516 --> 00:32:41,596 Speaker 1: but the fact of the castration is an American fact. 522 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:46,196 Speaker 1: If I'm not the nigga here and you invented him, 523 00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:48,836 Speaker 1: you the white people invented him, and you've got to 524 00:32:48,836 --> 00:32:53,476 Speaker 1: find out why and that includes electing demogogues to office 525 00:32:53,796 --> 00:32:57,196 Speaker 1: who will make sure that other demogogues remained in office, 526 00:32:57,396 --> 00:33:00,116 Speaker 1: and that people of the Democratic Party or people who 527 00:33:00,196 --> 00:33:03,836 Speaker 1: believe in the Pledge of Allegiance where it says with 528 00:33:04,076 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 1: liberty and justice for all, will be excluded because they 529 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:11,196 Speaker 1: are threats to the social order. Perceived as threats to 530 00:33:11,236 --> 00:33:15,156 Speaker 1: the social order, we could lose our democracy within a 531 00:33:15,276 --> 00:33:18,796 Speaker 1: few years. Yeah, yeah, our democracy definitely feels under threat. 532 00:33:18,836 --> 00:33:20,916 Speaker 1: And how it's tied to this sense of our history 533 00:33:21,396 --> 00:33:24,596 Speaker 1: is powerful, and I think we're all saying this. It's 534 00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:27,036 Speaker 1: not so clear now that like better textbooks are going 535 00:33:27,116 --> 00:33:29,756 Speaker 1: to save us. Yeah. Yeah, Well, this is kind of 536 00:33:29,996 --> 00:33:33,756 Speaker 1: a really important point to bring up the sixteen nineteen project, 537 00:33:33,876 --> 00:33:37,836 Speaker 1: because your book comes out not only after the original 538 00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:40,916 Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen project of the New York Times magazine, published 539 00:33:41,276 --> 00:33:44,036 Speaker 1: on the four hundredth anniversary of the landing of the 540 00:33:44,116 --> 00:33:48,556 Speaker 1: first Africans who would ultimately experience the early stages of 541 00:33:48,636 --> 00:33:51,996 Speaker 1: slavery in sixteen nineteen. That project comes out in August 542 00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:55,316 Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, and then a revised version in a 543 00:33:55,396 --> 00:33:58,236 Speaker 1: book length that comes out just last year. So here 544 00:33:58,316 --> 00:34:01,876 Speaker 1: your book comes afterwards and I'm curious. Let me shout 545 00:34:01,876 --> 00:34:04,956 Speaker 1: you out though, Khalil, you're in the sixteen nineteen Project. 546 00:34:05,036 --> 00:34:06,796 Speaker 1: You have a chapter in it, in both the magazine 547 00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:08,476 Speaker 1: form in the book from you write about the history 548 00:34:08,516 --> 00:34:11,556 Speaker 1: of sugar. Yeah, it's important to say, you know, yeah, 549 00:34:11,596 --> 00:34:14,956 Speaker 1: that's true. So and I guess the question is, what 550 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:17,356 Speaker 1: do you think about the sixteen nineteen project. Is it 551 00:34:17,676 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 1: part of the solution? It is part of the solution. 552 00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:23,756 Speaker 1: It isn't perfect by any means. A few things are. 553 00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:26,636 Speaker 1: But when I was writing the epilogue to the book 554 00:34:27,036 --> 00:34:30,556 Speaker 1: at that point two years ago, so many schools around 555 00:34:30,596 --> 00:34:34,556 Speaker 1: the country had adopted the sixteen nineteen Project for use 556 00:34:34,676 --> 00:34:39,916 Speaker 1: in class I found that terribly encouraging, even if there 557 00:34:40,036 --> 00:34:44,716 Speaker 1: are flaws, even if the emphasis on slavery and the 558 00:34:44,796 --> 00:34:50,236 Speaker 1: revolution isn't quite what was presented. However, the sixteen nineteen 559 00:34:50,276 --> 00:34:56,916 Speaker 1: projects emphasis on white supremacy is absolutely vital, and as 560 00:34:56,996 --> 00:34:59,716 Speaker 1: many people who can read that, the better off we 561 00:34:59,876 --> 00:35:04,596 Speaker 1: will be. However, under these current conditions, I have no 562 00:35:04,796 --> 00:35:08,156 Speaker 1: faith at all that what needs to be done will 563 00:35:08,236 --> 00:35:13,236 Speaker 1: be done, even bike dedicated, well trained teachers. If the 564 00:35:13,436 --> 00:35:16,636 Speaker 1: school system won't allow it, what do we do. I'm 565 00:35:16,676 --> 00:35:20,276 Speaker 1: finding teachers who are telling me that they are being 566 00:35:20,596 --> 00:35:25,116 Speaker 1: compelled to teach some repulsive images of people of African 567 00:35:25,196 --> 00:35:28,356 Speaker 1: descent because they're in the textbook they're being compelled to use, 568 00:35:28,676 --> 00:35:31,316 Speaker 1: and if they don't use it, they could lose their jobs. 569 00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:40,396 Speaker 1: When we come back, we're going to have more conversations 570 00:35:40,516 --> 00:35:43,596 Speaker 1: about what we are and are not teaching in our schools, 571 00:35:43,796 --> 00:35:46,836 Speaker 1: including my own daughters. We'll be back after the break. 572 00:36:05,036 --> 00:36:07,836 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Some of my best friends are so Donald, 573 00:36:08,156 --> 00:36:10,836 Speaker 1: Let's just say we have actual teachers who want to 574 00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:13,396 Speaker 1: do the right thing, who want to engage the history 575 00:36:13,436 --> 00:36:16,516 Speaker 1: of slavery in a thoughtful and productive way. And it 576 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:19,956 Speaker 1: seems to me that part of what you describe in 577 00:36:19,996 --> 00:36:21,916 Speaker 1: the last page of your book are these, like many 578 00:36:21,956 --> 00:36:24,916 Speaker 1: many stories of things gone terribly wrong, or you know, 579 00:36:25,356 --> 00:36:29,436 Speaker 1: you sort of imply that they're all intentionally poor outcomes, 580 00:36:29,916 --> 00:36:33,076 Speaker 1: or maybe I'm misreading it, but one in particular, you 581 00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:37,076 Speaker 1: cite this example of New Jersey for ten years teaching 582 00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:41,916 Speaker 1: slave runaway advertisements or having students do a project on that, 583 00:36:42,636 --> 00:36:45,636 Speaker 1: and I wanted to tell you Donald that actually, in 584 00:36:45,716 --> 00:36:48,156 Speaker 1: this instance, though this is not to say that all 585 00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:50,796 Speaker 1: the other examples that you describe are not examples of 586 00:36:51,556 --> 00:36:55,636 Speaker 1: bad teaching or somehow some diabolical effort to make black 587 00:36:55,716 --> 00:36:58,756 Speaker 1: kids feel bad. But in this instance, the New Jersey 588 00:36:58,836 --> 00:37:05,116 Speaker 1: example came directly from my school district and my daughter Justice, 589 00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:07,476 Speaker 1: who is a fifth grader at the time, was given 590 00:37:07,556 --> 00:37:11,916 Speaker 1: that assignment, and it made National news. Parents of fifth 591 00:37:11,996 --> 00:37:15,676 Speaker 1: graders at school the New Jersey our outrage after two 592 00:37:15,916 --> 00:37:19,596 Speaker 1: slavery related school assignments may have taken it too far, 593 00:37:20,356 --> 00:37:23,996 Speaker 1: but here's what actually happened. So the story that National 594 00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:28,956 Speaker 1: News told was that students, basically black students, were subjected 595 00:37:28,996 --> 00:37:33,196 Speaker 1: to these terrible ads of black runaways on the bulletin 596 00:37:33,236 --> 00:37:35,636 Speaker 1: board outside of their classroom, and it just reinforced this 597 00:37:35,756 --> 00:37:38,636 Speaker 1: negative image of black people, and the black students felt bad. 598 00:37:38,916 --> 00:37:41,396 Speaker 1: And it is true that some of the parents of 599 00:37:41,556 --> 00:37:45,356 Speaker 1: my daughter's classmates did feel that way. They felt that 600 00:37:45,436 --> 00:37:48,436 Speaker 1: their kids were being subjected to racist images of black people. 601 00:37:49,156 --> 00:37:51,196 Speaker 1: But the point of the assignment, and this is why 602 00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:53,356 Speaker 1: I think this is really tricky as we moved towards 603 00:37:53,436 --> 00:37:56,356 Speaker 1: like what comes next in this country. What is tricky 604 00:37:56,636 --> 00:37:59,676 Speaker 1: is that the teachers, after I sat down with them, 605 00:37:59,796 --> 00:38:03,156 Speaker 1: I reviewed the material I actually had helped my daughter 606 00:38:03,236 --> 00:38:06,796 Speaker 1: create her own runaway ad. It turns out that what 607 00:38:06,876 --> 00:38:09,356 Speaker 1: they were trying to do was to show the fulls 608 00:38:09,396 --> 00:38:12,556 Speaker 1: of colonial life in America, and rather than every kid 609 00:38:12,756 --> 00:38:18,396 Speaker 1: pretending like everyone was just a homesteader or a pioneer 610 00:38:18,636 --> 00:38:22,076 Speaker 1: or a colonist sharing in the hard work of building 611 00:38:22,116 --> 00:38:25,796 Speaker 1: the nation, they found a way to say that black 612 00:38:25,836 --> 00:38:29,996 Speaker 1: people were experiencing slavery, and they had prepared the material 613 00:38:30,076 --> 00:38:32,676 Speaker 1: to teach them this. I told my daughter as we 614 00:38:32,796 --> 00:38:35,876 Speaker 1: went on Google to look for actual runaway ads, that 615 00:38:36,036 --> 00:38:40,116 Speaker 1: those ads in the eighteenth nineteenth century were the most 616 00:38:40,356 --> 00:38:43,396 Speaker 1: dominant source of learning about individual black people, because they 617 00:38:43,476 --> 00:38:46,756 Speaker 1: told their names, they told their characteristics, they gave them personalities, 618 00:38:47,036 --> 00:38:49,556 Speaker 1: and in ways that black people are often invisible in 619 00:38:49,636 --> 00:38:52,236 Speaker 1: the archives and invisible in their historical record, or only 620 00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:54,916 Speaker 1: come through in a diary entry of a white enslaver 621 00:38:55,196 --> 00:39:00,116 Speaker 1: describing their faithful slave, these ads served a different kind 622 00:39:00,196 --> 00:39:03,396 Speaker 1: of purpose and at least documenting the presence of black 623 00:39:03,476 --> 00:39:05,716 Speaker 1: people when they often were left out of the story. 624 00:39:06,356 --> 00:39:09,516 Speaker 1: And so I pushed back against the criticism as a 625 00:39:09,636 --> 00:39:12,036 Speaker 1: historian because I felt like it was a way to 626 00:39:12,236 --> 00:39:16,316 Speaker 1: actually teach slavery rather than simply avoided a lot of 627 00:39:16,316 --> 00:39:19,276 Speaker 1: people didn't agree with me, but I wanted to share 628 00:39:19,316 --> 00:39:21,876 Speaker 1: that story with you because I do think it illustrates 629 00:39:21,996 --> 00:39:24,916 Speaker 1: that even when people want to get this right, the 630 00:39:25,036 --> 00:39:28,236 Speaker 1: stakes are really high and fraught. You know. I followed 631 00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:30,076 Speaker 1: those debates and I'm listening to both of you, and 632 00:39:30,156 --> 00:39:32,796 Speaker 1: I think it's such a landmine and so many, so 633 00:39:32,876 --> 00:39:35,276 Speaker 1: many ways it can go wrong. And I hear you 634 00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:38,316 Speaker 1: Khalil talking about New Jersey and that it also cuts 635 00:39:38,396 --> 00:39:40,556 Speaker 1: both ways, is what you're saying, right, That we have 636 00:39:40,716 --> 00:39:42,996 Speaker 1: to we have to find ways to teach that hard 637 00:39:43,076 --> 00:39:45,916 Speaker 1: history that really looks at it, and that's gonna be 638 00:39:46,316 --> 00:39:49,636 Speaker 1: fraught and difficult to do, and you know, there are 639 00:39:49,676 --> 00:39:52,036 Speaker 1: lots of ways to fuck it up, but that is 640 00:39:52,116 --> 00:39:54,636 Speaker 1: the space that we have to move into. Right, That's right. 641 00:39:55,196 --> 00:39:58,236 Speaker 1: I mean, you have this moment in your conclusion near 642 00:39:58,276 --> 00:40:00,196 Speaker 1: the end of the book that really struck me. You 643 00:40:00,316 --> 00:40:03,116 Speaker 1: talk about a study by the Southern Poverty Law Center 644 00:40:03,916 --> 00:40:07,596 Speaker 1: from twenty eighteen and they cite that, I'm only about 645 00:40:07,676 --> 00:40:10,796 Speaker 1: eight percent of students that they interviewed could even say 646 00:40:10,836 --> 00:40:13,556 Speaker 1: what the causes of the Civil War was fighting over 647 00:40:13,876 --> 00:40:17,556 Speaker 1: over slavery. Yeah, But then another thing from that study 648 00:40:17,636 --> 00:40:20,996 Speaker 1: really struck me that that even where slavery was part 649 00:40:21,036 --> 00:40:24,316 Speaker 1: of the curriculum, nine percent of the teachers who responded 650 00:40:24,636 --> 00:40:26,956 Speaker 1: said they just didn't teach it, they just skipped it over. 651 00:40:27,156 --> 00:40:31,076 Speaker 1: And I had this confirmed when I deliver lectures on 652 00:40:31,156 --> 00:40:36,876 Speaker 1: this subject, you know, around various schools, and I ask students, well, 653 00:40:36,996 --> 00:40:40,076 Speaker 1: what did you learn about the history of slavery and 654 00:40:40,556 --> 00:40:45,956 Speaker 1: race in America? The answer quote not much, unquote yeah. Yeah. 655 00:40:46,276 --> 00:40:48,756 Speaker 1: That study from the Southern Poverty Law Center is called 656 00:40:49,036 --> 00:40:51,676 Speaker 1: teaching Hard History. Yes, And I love the name of 657 00:40:51,756 --> 00:40:54,916 Speaker 1: that study. I mean, like this is pre backlash critical 658 00:40:55,036 --> 00:40:59,036 Speaker 1: race theory imagined, you know, boogeyman stuff, and the idea 659 00:40:59,116 --> 00:41:02,836 Speaker 1: that we need to confront our hard histories as well 660 00:41:02,876 --> 00:41:05,076 Speaker 1: as like our soft ones that make us comfortable and 661 00:41:05,156 --> 00:41:07,396 Speaker 1: don't make us feel bad. But like you know, we're 662 00:41:07,636 --> 00:41:10,076 Speaker 1: we're a nation that has stains on it and we 663 00:41:10,156 --> 00:41:12,636 Speaker 1: need to see those as well. And you know, that 664 00:41:12,796 --> 00:41:17,516 Speaker 1: idea of like teaching hard history seems like a great 665 00:41:17,596 --> 00:41:19,276 Speaker 1: lesson to take off it. Yes, And we've got to 666 00:41:19,396 --> 00:41:21,716 Speaker 1: the point where as you point out, even if we 667 00:41:21,836 --> 00:41:24,796 Speaker 1: have the best textbooks on the planet, if teachers won't 668 00:41:24,876 --> 00:41:27,156 Speaker 1: teach it, what good is it? I just want to 669 00:41:27,156 --> 00:41:29,556 Speaker 1: say again how much we appreciate you having it, having 670 00:41:29,636 --> 00:41:33,676 Speaker 1: you on and you're sharing how significant this body of 671 00:41:33,756 --> 00:41:36,596 Speaker 1: work is in terms of socializing white supremacy as a 672 00:41:36,636 --> 00:41:40,796 Speaker 1: core value in American society. And as we have observed 673 00:41:40,916 --> 00:41:43,636 Speaker 1: in this moment, this political season that we're all part of, 674 00:41:43,796 --> 00:41:47,036 Speaker 1: and that video we saw of the young man holding 675 00:41:47,036 --> 00:41:50,076 Speaker 1: a Black Lives Matter sign, that when you write at 676 00:41:50,116 --> 00:41:52,116 Speaker 1: the end of your book that history is a mirror, 677 00:41:52,316 --> 00:41:55,436 Speaker 1: you say that quote, the history we teach is the 678 00:41:55,596 --> 00:41:59,516 Speaker 1: product of the culture we create, not necessarily of the 679 00:41:59,636 --> 00:42:02,556 Speaker 1: actual history we made. And I thought that was a 680 00:42:02,636 --> 00:42:06,476 Speaker 1: really wonderful line, Donald, and appreciate your commitment and passion 681 00:42:06,636 --> 00:42:08,636 Speaker 1: for us getting our history right. Thanks for coming on 682 00:42:08,716 --> 00:42:21,196 Speaker 1: the show, Oh thank you. You know, this history of 683 00:42:21,516 --> 00:42:25,356 Speaker 1: the founding of this nation that continues to be debated 684 00:42:25,716 --> 00:42:29,756 Speaker 1: in our country right now tells us that our history 685 00:42:30,356 --> 00:42:33,876 Speaker 1: is fundamental to how we think of ourselves as a country. 686 00:42:34,276 --> 00:42:36,516 Speaker 1: And until we get that history right, as I learned 687 00:42:36,556 --> 00:42:40,236 Speaker 1: from Donald today, then we're going to keep reproducing one 688 00:42:40,356 --> 00:42:43,916 Speaker 1: generation to the next people who have false ideas about 689 00:42:43,956 --> 00:42:46,236 Speaker 1: how we arrived at the country that we are and 690 00:42:46,316 --> 00:42:48,636 Speaker 1: where we have to take it. But you just said 691 00:42:48,636 --> 00:42:52,316 Speaker 1: about false ideas and how they're you know, this long 692 00:42:52,436 --> 00:42:54,916 Speaker 1: history of them. That's where we are right now. We're 693 00:42:54,956 --> 00:42:57,476 Speaker 1: still caught up in all these false ideas that defines 694 00:42:57,556 --> 00:43:00,876 Speaker 1: our politics. You know, we're not confronting these issues of race. 695 00:43:01,236 --> 00:43:04,796 Speaker 1: We're not confronting how the politics affects Americans. That's what 696 00:43:04,956 --> 00:43:07,636 Speaker 1: we have to solve for. Yeah, and there's no way 697 00:43:07,716 --> 00:43:09,836 Speaker 1: out of this dilemma because because as much as we 698 00:43:09,956 --> 00:43:12,076 Speaker 1: might hope the young people today are going to be 699 00:43:12,156 --> 00:43:14,756 Speaker 1: better than than they were back in the day, that 700 00:43:14,956 --> 00:43:18,516 Speaker 1: young man in Arkansas just shows us that it doesn't matter. 701 00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:22,276 Speaker 1: These ideas are so sticky. As Donald pointed out, that 702 00:43:22,596 --> 00:43:25,516 Speaker 1: unless we change things and how we teach and socialize, 703 00:43:26,116 --> 00:43:28,436 Speaker 1: they're going to be new generations of folks with the 704 00:43:28,516 --> 00:43:32,956 Speaker 1: same racial hatred, the same bigoted ideas, the same backlash 705 00:43:33,076 --> 00:43:34,876 Speaker 1: to the change that we need in this country. No 706 00:43:35,036 --> 00:43:38,476 Speaker 1: way out, that's the new name of this podcast. No, no, no, 707 00:43:38,716 --> 00:43:40,636 Speaker 1: we gotta end on a happy note. All right, now, 708 00:43:40,716 --> 00:43:43,356 Speaker 1: we got this because we're we're living, we're living post 709 00:43:43,436 --> 00:43:45,476 Speaker 1: mid term. Things are going to get better. We're working 710 00:43:45,556 --> 00:43:48,716 Speaker 1: on this and uh right, it wasn't a red wave. 711 00:43:48,756 --> 00:43:51,476 Speaker 1: It was a red puddle. Yes, yes see now we 712 00:43:51,636 --> 00:43:56,756 Speaker 1: get it circle Yes, yes all right, man, I love you, 713 00:43:57,076 --> 00:44:04,196 Speaker 1: I love you too. Some of My Best Friends Are 714 00:44:04,396 --> 00:44:07,676 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written 715 00:44:07,756 --> 00:44:10,996 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Oldibron Muhammad and my best friend 716 00:44:11,196 --> 00:44:15,156 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. Gets produced by John Asante and Lucy Sullivan. 717 00:44:15,556 --> 00:44:19,596 Speaker 1: Our editor is Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda ka Wong, 718 00:44:19,956 --> 00:44:23,676 Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Mia Lamell. At Pushkin Thanks 719 00:44:23,716 --> 00:44:29,556 Speaker 1: Selita Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, 720 00:44:29,916 --> 00:44:34,556 Speaker 1: Gretta Kone and Jacob Weissberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, 721 00:44:34,956 --> 00:44:38,516 Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan a brilliant Avery R. Young from 722 00:44:38,556 --> 00:44:41,276 Speaker 1: his album pub You definitely want to check out his 723 00:44:41,436 --> 00:44:44,596 Speaker 1: music at his website Avery R. Young dot com. You 724 00:44:44,676 --> 00:44:48,116 Speaker 1: can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods, 725 00:44:48,476 --> 00:44:51,076 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 726 00:44:51,156 --> 00:44:54,916 Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 727 00:44:55,036 --> 00:44:58,996 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 728 00:44:59,236 --> 00:45:01,596 Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a 729 00:45:01,676 --> 00:45:04,276 Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen even if 730 00:45:04,316 --> 00:45:05,916 Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating 731 00:45:05,956 --> 00:45:08,756 Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best 732 00:45:08,836 --> 00:45:24,836 Speaker 1: friends about it. When my mom listens to us, you know, 733 00:45:25,036 --> 00:45:27,636 Speaker 1: listens to some of my best friends are, she says, 734 00:45:27,676 --> 00:45:30,316 Speaker 1: I watched you guys. She has to look at the 735 00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:33,636 Speaker 1: image of us from from the show arts every time, 736 00:45:34,516 --> 00:45:37,196 Speaker 1: so she every week she says, hey, I just watched 737 00:45:37,236 --> 00:45:39,916 Speaker 1: your podcast, and she literally did. She have to sit 738 00:45:40,116 --> 00:45:42,156 Speaker 1: in front of the computer staring at the picture of 739 00:45:42,276 --> 00:45:45,356 Speaker 1: us and imagine like the sounds coming out of our mouth. Oh, 740 00:45:45,756 --> 00:45:46,356 Speaker 1: that's funny.