1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to okay f Daily with 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: me your girl, Danielle Moody recording live not so much 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: from my Brooklyn Cilarium. Folks. As you know, it is 4 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: my birthday week and I take my birthday very seriously 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: as do many scorpios. But before I checked out to 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: have some much needed good times and recharging, I left 7 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: you all with a slight of interviews that I hope 8 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: that you have enjoyed. Coming up today is my conversation 9 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: with the author of the book The Episodic Careers, Farai Chideya, 10 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: who I've known for many, many years. Through her work 11 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: and politics and advocacy and justice as well as her 12 00:00:54,640 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: work in media and as a black woman. She has 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: pretty much laid the path and the foundation for many 14 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: of us who started out following her and her guidelines 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: to how to navigate the media and being in media 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: as a black woman. But in today's episode, we delve 17 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: into what it means to work and to be a worker. 18 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think is a positive 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: that came out of the trauma, the beautiful mess that 20 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: is COVID nineteen and our continuing dealings with a global 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: health pandemic is that for those of us that are 22 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: in privileged spaces, we were really able to assess or 23 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: begin to assess our relationship to work. You see, growing up, 24 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: I think that many of us were taught that, you know, 25 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: you keep your head down, you do what is asked 26 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: of you, and you will be rewarded with a paycheck 27 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: at the end of each week. Where you are able 28 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: to take care of your family, you're able to buy 29 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: a home. And maybe that was true at one point 30 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: in time in our American history, but we know as 31 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: we are assessing things later on in life that whose 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: back was that on right? Who actually was given the 33 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: loans in order to buy a home? Who was given, 34 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, the raises because their wives were pregnant. Who 35 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: was the one that was able to have access to 36 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: economic mobility? And these ideas of pensions and long hours 37 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: and just doing the work no longer exist. You know, 38 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: when Cheryl Sandberg wrote her book Lean In, it was 39 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: talking about the fact that we had moved ourselves from 40 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,399 Speaker 1: this place where we were trying to climb a corporate ladder, right, 41 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: which means that in order for you to climb up, 42 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: other people needed to come down. Right. They needed to 43 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: do a dismount from their career path, they would retire 44 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: and then you know, you would kiss the and be 45 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: able to move up. But she followed up with that 46 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: kind of thinking that corporate ladder into the jungle gym, 47 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: right where things no longer work linearly, Right, that we're 48 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: swinging from one position to the next. Wherever there is 49 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: an opening is where a lot of people find themselves. Again, 50 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: I say that with folks who are privileged in terms 51 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: of the type of education that they have, where they 52 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: actually live, their geography, what they've studied, and whether or 53 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: not it's a industry that is thriving or one that's 54 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: barely surviving. But there are a lot of differences that 55 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: we understand now that COVID has been a reflection in 56 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: a mirror to us that a lot of the ways 57 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: in which people have been working has been extraordinarily exploited. 58 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: What for I will tell us is that it has 59 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: been exploited for bipop people, right, But now that exploitation 60 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: has begin to seep into white communities and now guess what, 61 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: we're in an uproar collectively. But the reality is is 62 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: that during this time we have been thinking about our 63 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: relationship to work. What does it mean to work forty 64 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: hours a week and still not be able to provide 65 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: for yourself or your loved ones? What does it mean 66 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: to be self employed when the tax system is actually 67 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: not working in your favor? Does not encourage ingenuity, innovation 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: outside of being a part of an organization and or 69 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: a company. What does it mean that when families, when 70 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: we are family planning, recognize that in a lot of ways, 71 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: if both parents are going to be out of the 72 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: home and working, if there are two family households, that 73 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: you're going to be paying as much in childcare as 74 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: you are for your mortgage or your rent. Which is 75 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: why in Joe Biden's Build Back Better right in this 76 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: Human Infrastructure Bill, I don't remember which is named what 77 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: at this point, but in the Human Infrastructure Bill, why 78 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: we were talking about paid family leave. Why as a 79 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: part of the COVID nineteen Critical Response Package that we 80 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: were looking at child tax credits because you see too 81 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: many people, namely women, had been forced out of the workforce, 82 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: right because at the height of twenty twenty, in the 83 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: height of the pandemic, they were being forced to be 84 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: both their child's teacher as well as their primary caregiver. Right, 85 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: and so if we are not setting up a culture 86 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: in which we are both able to work and live 87 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: and not give this false construct of the work life balance. 88 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: Knowing that something has to give? But should it be 89 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: our sanity? Should it be our mental and emotional and 90 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: physical well being? Should that be the thing that gives? 91 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: And what we have seen through out this slowdown and 92 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: this emergence back into a new abnormal is that we 93 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: have been participating in a system that is associated with 94 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: our spiritual, emotional and physical demise. Right, that we do 95 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: not have the freedom to be able to move from jobs. Right, 96 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: this was the whole one of the many ideas behind Obamacare, 97 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't be forced to stay at your position 98 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: of work, right if in fact you hate it and 99 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: you're just now doing it for the health benefits. That 100 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: you should be able to get healthcare regardless of whether 101 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: or not you're employed at a big company or a 102 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: small nonprofit or self employed. And I think that you know, 103 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: for far too long we have just gone with the flow, 104 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: and the wrong sense of going with the flow. Just 105 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: because things have always been done in one way doesn't 106 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: mean that there is an opportunity to evaluate how we 107 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: can do things differently where it benefits all parties. This 108 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: has always been a very employer centric country, which is 109 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: that we are tending to the needs of the CEOs 110 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: and the shareholders and the executive directors at right at 111 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: the expense of the workers. You know, even in this 112 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: concept right pre COVID, when you're looking at the ways 113 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: in which Silicon Valley began to change the physical sense 114 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: of our work, right, they started to bring in this 115 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: collegiate idea of campuses where you had everything that you 116 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: needed on said campus, whether it be fully stocked cafeterias, 117 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: foodsball tables, beer on tap, wine nights, the ability to 118 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: get your dry cleaning sent out and picked up, and 119 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: all of these things were done. And initially we thought 120 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: that those changes were great. Sure, who doesn't want to 121 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: be able to readily pull down on the tap at 122 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: their place of work and grab a beer and finish 123 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: up the day's work once it hits five o'clock and 124 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: you're not leaving. Except that all amounted to was creating 125 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: a velvet cage for a lot of people, because it 126 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: wasn't about how are you creating a better life for 127 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: those employees once they leave the campus. It was creating 128 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: the conditions so that they would never have any reason 129 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: to leave in the first fucking place. Right, So you 130 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: had that shift that was happening. But now with folks 131 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: having had been home for several months during quarantine, but 132 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: then many of us who are still in jobs where 133 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: they have gone fully remote or they're only coming back 134 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: two and three days a week, this is allowing for 135 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: there to be an opportunity for us to really assess 136 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: what it is that we need from our employers as 137 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: opposed to what is it that we are giving them. Right. 138 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: And the fact is, you know, I left a firm, 139 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: and I've said this before, I left working for others 140 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: roughly three years ago. Now I've been self employed for 141 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: three years. And the reason for that was a couple 142 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: of things. I began to really think about what was 143 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: important to me right and for I and I will 144 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: get into this conversation as well, what was important where 145 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: do my values lie? And I have always, you know, 146 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: worked in spaces and places where the mission of said 147 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: organization or office was aligned with my personal mission, meaning 148 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: that my whole work and life professionally has been around 149 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: being of service. Right, making my life of service to 150 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: other people. So, whether that was working at a environmental organization, 151 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: trying to give children of color access to the outdoors, right, 152 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: making greener spaces, and moving us from this testing culture 153 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: into a time if you remember when children were losing recess, right, 154 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: because we needed to teach to the test and we 155 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: needed more time. And so they don't need to run around, 156 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: and they don't need to socially connect with one another. 157 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: They just need to fill in fucking bubbles all day 158 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: right in multiple choice tests. And so part of my 159 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: work was about stopping that because I recognized how detrimental 160 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: it was to kids. You know, from working in the 161 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: women's organization and spaces to working in LGBTQ plus spaces, 162 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 1: and you know, working for these organizations and companies and 163 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: representatives all helped color the fact of what was important 164 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: to me right, and what was important to me was 165 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: the ability to say no. I didn't always want it 166 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: to be beholden to who my employer said was going 167 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: to be the next client, was going to be the 168 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: next issue. I wanted the autonomy to be able to 169 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: use that beautiful sentence no, right, or as Nicolehannah Jones said, 170 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: I refuse. Right. Being self employed allows me the freedom 171 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: to be able to select what best aligns with my 172 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: personal values and mission. I'm not saying that I would 173 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: never go back into an organization or company type setting, 174 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: but I'm saying it would have to be something major, right, 175 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: something major that was in true alignment. And I think 176 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: that right now, as we are all changing, our relationship 177 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: to work or work in general is changing. You know, 178 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: first off, it was you know, this shift from agriculture 179 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: to industry. Then it was the shift into the gig economy, 180 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: and then you know, that became super exploitive, which we 181 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: thought was going to be a democratization of work, right, 182 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: work when you want, how you want, and that became exploitive. 183 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: And now we're in a next shift, right where employers 184 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: are recognizing, after people working from home for a year 185 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: plus the lie of the fact that you needed an office, 186 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: that their productivity was going to slow down if people 187 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: had the ability to what shop, you know, grocery store, 188 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: shop while you were taking a call, while you were 189 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: on a zoom. And so I think that there is 190 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity at this moment for us collectively 191 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: to reimagine our relationship to work. And you know, frankly, 192 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: for I and I start off with the utter lie 193 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: that I have been talking about on wok F, which 194 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: is that there is a labor shortage. No, there is 195 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: not a la for shortest. There is not a shortage 196 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: of workers willing to work. There is a shortage of 197 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: employers willing to pay people a living wage, willing to 198 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: give them health benefits, right, willing to like meet their 199 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: needs and not just think that they are expendable. Right. 200 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: And so if you are being emotionally, physically and spiritually 201 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: beat down forty hours a week, then you may rethink 202 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: like how I show up or if I show up. 203 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: There's a reason why eleven million people have left the workforce, right, 204 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: There's a reason for the mass resignation. And it isn't 205 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: just laziness, as as as our Republican politicians would love 206 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: to tell us, Oh, the American people, we need to 207 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: cut their unemployment because they're lazy. No, that's not the case. 208 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: We're just not willing to be exploited in this very extractive, 209 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: top heavy capitalistic system that only rewards the few at 210 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: the expense of the many. And so, in this conversation 211 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: with Pharai we unpack a lot and we talk about 212 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: what it means to reimagine community and community building, economic stability. 213 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: When young people nowadays are marrying later, living at home 214 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: with their families longer, and not buying cars, not buying 215 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: homes all because they're strapped with student debt, is there 216 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: another way for them to exist and the ability to thrive. 217 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: Those are's parts of the conversation that I will have 218 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: with Pharai that is coming up next. But folks, tell 219 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: me what your experiences have been with work? Right? Are 220 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: you a person that went into work strictly focused on 221 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: their passion right or is it just a means to 222 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: an end? And how are you viewing it differently now, 223 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: right in the midst of this health pandemic and the 224 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: advent of you know, may streaming of remote work and 225 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: what does it look like in the future for you? 226 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: So coming up next is my conversation, my interview with 227 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: the author of Episodic Careers for I TODAYA folks, I 228 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: am so excited to welcome to woke a f daily 229 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: for what I believe is the first time I think 230 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: for I TODAYA on to discuss a myriad of things. 231 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: We will open up with talking about her book, The 232 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: Episodic Career and how we must be psychologically self employed, 233 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: as well as delving into, you know, the politics of 234 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: the day, because you are no stranger to political forums, 235 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: to discussions of race and inequality in media and how 236 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: we talk about this, as you have been steeped in 237 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: this work for quite some time. I want to start off, though, 238 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: with your book, The Episodic Career, because you know right 239 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: now and I'm certain that you're you're listening in the 240 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,479 Speaker 1: same way that I am to all of these segments 241 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: and news reports about how there is a labor shortage, 242 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: about how people don't want to work. The Wall Street 243 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: Journal a couple of weeks ago had their article the 244 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: mass Resignation, right over eleven million people have left the workforce. 245 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: You had Republicans saying that we needed to end support 246 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: for unemployed people because that would then force them back 247 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: into work. But what I have recognized and what I 248 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: want to know from you, is that that is a lie, right, 249 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: and that there isn't a shortage of workers. There is 250 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: a shortage of employers that are paying Joe, paying for 251 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: work that is of high paying quality right with benefits, 252 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: where people are able to work forty hours a week 253 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: and not have to play you know, three cardmonte or 254 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: Russian Roulette with their with their lives. Should I get 255 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: medicine today? Can I afford to do that? And groceries 256 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: and childcare and all of these different things? How do 257 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: you make sense of the current narrative around work and 258 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: workers in America? You know, first of all, thanks for 259 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: having me on and thanks for doing everything you do. 260 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: I think what's what is happening in some ways is 261 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: that the way that black people have always been treated 262 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: by the labor economy has become more generalized, you know, 263 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: and there are more you know that that it was before, 264 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, and it's always fluctuated somewhat, but never that much. 265 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: It's you know, for example, the unemployment rate for Black 266 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: Americans has almost always been, you know, in the modern era, 267 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: twice that for White Americans. And it's not that Black 268 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: people don't want to work, but beyond a certain point, 269 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: you know, given the massive amounts of labor discrimination and 270 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: also just structural you know, like so many structural barriers 271 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: to being a working parent. For example, black Americans are 272 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: put in situations where the labor market has not rewarded 273 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: us or served us, and now that's happening to white Americans. 274 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: And what we're seeing is kind of a mass reckoning 275 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: with what has been an extractive labor market. And I 276 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: talked about this to you know, a group of wealthy 277 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: people whom you know, we're asking what can we do 278 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: about America today? And I said extracted economics were one 279 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: part of the pillar of destruction, you know, like that 280 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: that essentially people have been giving their lives for no 281 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: fixed reward at the end. Like at least in the past, 282 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: my family has had a lot of government civil servants, 283 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, Post Office, social secure, the administration. They got 284 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: their retirement benefits. What do you get if you have 285 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: been working subsistence wages at the dollar General or even 286 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: a better job than that, but that you've always been 287 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: just you know, paycheck to paycheck and you have saved 288 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: nothing for retirement. And then you know, people who are 289 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: considered middle class are one paycheck away from disaster. And 290 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: I think what some people are They're looking at the 291 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: labor market and saying, I am working so hard just 292 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: to be so stressed and broke. At least I can 293 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: take care of my family. There were high school students 294 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: who did not go to high school when they were 295 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: asked to go in person during COVID because they were like, 296 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: I've got a family full of essential workers that are 297 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: already risking their life. I'm not going to be that 298 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: person who brings COVID back and gets everybody sick and 299 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: then we get evicted. So you have, you know, And 300 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: that was New York Times op ed. But you have 301 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: teenagers who have been making decisions about their level of exposure. 302 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: You have parents making decisions about their level of exposure. 303 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: And I don't just mean exposure to COVID. I mean 304 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: exposure to what can be. And I've had the whole 305 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: spectrum of experiences from work being like magical to work 306 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: being like, you know, potentially life threatening on a psychological level, 307 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, and you know with harassment and discrimination. But 308 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: when work becomes something that is humiliating and also doesn't 309 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: reward you financially, it's like why why, you know, Like 310 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: so many people, there have been so many great stories 311 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: about people who just that they are that manager at 312 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 1: the dollar store. No one is showing up to work 313 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: because they're all opting out, and the managers working three 314 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: shifts in a row, and then the managers like I'm out, 315 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, like you know, like done. And then you 316 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: have all of the people who thought that they were 317 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,719 Speaker 1: solidly middle class to income and all of a sudden 318 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: they're homeschooling or their homeschooling toddlers, and it's it's I mean, 319 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, toddlers through elementary through whatever, and yeah, they're 320 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: down to one exactly. It's like we cannot survive, you know, 321 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: Like there's so many people who are like, we cannot 322 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: survive the middle class to earner parent family because we 323 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: just we will we will all lose our minds. And 324 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: I do see, like what we covered this on on 325 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: our Body Politic my show, that there is a profound 326 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: mental health crisis affecting parents, you know, um from the pandemic. 327 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: Like there's seriously like a huge uptick. I mean it's 328 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: it's uptick across the board. But I think that we 329 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: can recognize not just for parents, but for care givers. 330 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: It can be like I just talked to someone the 331 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: other day who's, you know, has her husband suffered a 332 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: traumatic brain injury, and now like the caregiver situation, like 333 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: there are caregivers who both have gotten COVID from their 334 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: clients or given COVID to their clients, and so it's 335 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: just changing, you know, so you get the picture. There's 336 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people who have factors in their lives 337 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: where what had been considered an already shaky but slightly 338 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: functional way to earn a living has just gone up 339 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: in smoke. And you know, you know, it's funny because 340 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: I believe, you know, in so many ways and a 341 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: lot of the things, a lot of the examples that 342 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: you just provided illuminate this. You know, we were fundamentally 343 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: cracked as it was, right like the way in which 344 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, our economy has worked, the way in which 345 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: that we even look and view work. Right Like we 346 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: are seen, particularly by our representatives, who were supposed to be, 347 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, amplifying our voices and our needs. We are 348 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: just seen as cogs in a machine, right like you know, 349 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule on MSNBC a couple of weeks back had 350 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: said something and I'm sure you know she didn't originate it, 351 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: but she said, you know, with regard to Facebook, when 352 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: you're not being charged for something, recognized that you are 353 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: the product. And I see that in reality that you know, 354 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: our representatives who are supposed to again be our voices, 355 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: see us as the product, see us as like we 356 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: are the ones that are malfunctioning because we don't want 357 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: to show up in this extractive and oppressive system that 358 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: leaves us depleted and emotionally scarred, right and psychologically abused 359 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: in order to be able to barely provide for ourselves 360 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: and our families. And I think that COVID, you know, 361 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: the pandemic illuminated so many gaps and problems that we had. 362 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: But what we are seeing right now too is that 363 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: as in this desire to force ourselves back into this 364 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: space of quote unquote normal, that people are recognizing with 365 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: this pause, those of us that had the privilege to pause, 366 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: recognize that. Man, how I've been working and thinking about 367 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: work and absorbing work, Like I get the joke. Work 368 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: is supposed to be a four letter you know, work 369 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: is a four letter word, but it isn't supposed to 370 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: feel right like this oppressive. And so do you think 371 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: that we are at a moment you know when they 372 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: talk about in real estate it's a buyer's marketer, it's 373 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: a seller's market. Do you think that we have arrived 374 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: or are we arriving at the worker's market right when 375 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: we are at a place where we get to determine 376 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: how work flows as opposed to just being forced to 377 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: go along for the get along. That's a complicated one. 378 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: I think that we are in a worker's market for 379 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: hourly wages. So I've seen, like I've driven by designs 380 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: where a burger can is like seventeen dollars an hour 381 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: people needed, you know, like that kind of stuff, but 382 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: for and and and you now see Amazon, for example, 383 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: offering um people who've who come on board and are 384 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: there for a certain amount of time college tuition. That's 385 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: that's one step above. But still there is not a 386 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: clear pathway in most cases for people to have the 387 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: job that allows them to work hours that they can 388 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: do caregiving and receive some form of you know, deferred 389 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: compensation ie, retirement savings and healthcare and do it in 390 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: a way that's functional. So there we're seeing I think, 391 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: a wage increase first, but we're not necessarily seeing all 392 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: the system changes. And what I have said for years, 393 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: and what I wrote about in the book The Episodic Career, 394 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: was the way that when you compare us to other 395 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: you know, what are considered developed nations, we get nothing 396 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: in Germany, right right, right, in Germany, you can have 397 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: a child, both parents can take parental leave for several 398 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: months and it can be paid, and at least the 399 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: mother or primary parent can have a guaranteed job. Three 400 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,239 Speaker 1: years later. They don't get paid the whole time, but 401 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: three years later they are guaranteed a job at the 402 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: same level that they were working at before. So it 403 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: builds in for caregiving, it builds in for for um 404 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: parent child bonding. You know, there's so much emotional trauma 405 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: to people putting their kids in what I call baby jail. 406 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: And so I wrote a piece, um, you know, about 407 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: my journey to adopt, which was not successful. But during 408 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: a series of failed adoptions with a horrible adoption agency, 409 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: I spent more time than I would like in baby 410 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: jail looking for that that, you know, childcare. They were 411 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: charging four hundred dollars a week for baby jail in Brooklyn. Yeah, 412 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: you know, yea four hundred dollars a week for baby jail. 413 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: And it's like I'm talking like really, like you walk 414 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: in and you're like, I'm depressed, Like and if I 415 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: was a baby, I would be really depressed, you know 416 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: it Just like it's like Basically, it's kind of like 417 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: the place. One of the places I saw it was 418 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: kind of like the Walking Dead for toddlers. It's just 419 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: all these toddlers stocks staggering around like and then you know, 420 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: people on their phone while agads just wander. I'm like, 421 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, okay. And so this is what people 422 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: are facing. It's not just the hourly wages or whatever. 423 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: It's like, you are lucky if you can get baby 424 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: jail because a lot of childcare places have shut down 425 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: all of the extra work that they have to do 426 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: on sanitation, etc. And Laid Limball did an incredible film 427 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: called Through the Night, a documentary about overnight daycare. So 428 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: think about all the essential workers who work overnight. Where 429 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: do they put their kids? They put about it right, 430 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: They put their kids in overnight daycare. What happens in 431 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: overnight daycare is like you have people who are just heroic, 432 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 1: but they're burning out, you know, And so you're lucky. 433 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: I mean, like, if you can find a provider, you're lucky. 434 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: And I'm also hearing from not just one or two, 435 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: but multiple parents in my life that their childcare providers 436 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: are having nervous breakdowns because the childcare providers, not all 437 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: of them, but some of them are people who have 438 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: their own kids, are making money by taking care of 439 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: someone else's kids, and are living in at the expense 440 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: of their own right and also living in financial precarity, 441 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: you know. And so it's all a syndrome where this country, 442 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, and like, I hate to be a broken record, 443 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: but like this country built the middle class model on 444 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: broken families, on the extracted labor practices of slavery and 445 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: and even extracting from from white Americans. It wasn't just slavery. 446 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: There were many white Americans who you know, you think 447 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: about that the whole line in the song about I 448 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: sold my soul to the company's store, and all the 449 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: people who lived, you know, in debt, and the white sharecroppers, etc. 450 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: So there was there was a way in which the 451 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: American dream that we were told was normal was always 452 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: built on a layer of suppressing the potential of other 453 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: people to live good lives. And you know, I've worked 454 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: hard my whole life. My mother, you know who's alive, 455 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: worked hard for her whole life and never got what 456 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: she deserved from the economy or from the job market. 457 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: My grandmother raised six kids and also worked. And I've 458 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: seen what black women in particular do who try to 459 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: do better for themselves and their kids, and it can 460 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: it can also that can be a mental health crisis 461 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: in and of itself. I mean, I remember my mother 462 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: at one point just crying in front of me and 463 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: my sister because we were talking about some racial something 464 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: that happened. She was like, I thought it would be 465 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: better by now, and you know, it's like it's crushing 466 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: because also what you've seen, and the book Disintegration Um 467 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: talks about this, is that in black families now, kids 468 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: of the black middle class are slipping backwards economically. So 469 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: you know, the whole idea of like the American dream 470 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: is that you do your kids. That's just not true 471 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: for black families. I mean, it's it's and it's honestly, 472 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: not only is it not true for black families, it's 473 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: not true for a multitude of families, particularly particularly those 474 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: who are straddle, who are strapped with excuse me, you know, 475 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt, student loan debt. 476 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: So where are you? Where are you? So we told kids, 477 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: we told young people, go out there, go you know, 478 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: go get a higher education. A higher education means that 479 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: you're going to be sought after and highly employed, right, 480 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: and then they get out after strapping themselves with one 481 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt, to realize that 482 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: the boomers didn't leave their jobs, so there are no 483 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: positions that are open. And then the gen xers right 484 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: are stuck in middle management because there's nowhere to go. 485 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: There's nowhere to go, right, And so for them, they 486 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: are stuck at entry if in fact they are even 487 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: welcomed inside of that door, in that space. So then 488 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: leaving them if they're lucky enough to have family security 489 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: to them be living at home with families, which is 490 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: why they're not getting married, which is why they're not 491 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: buying homes. Like it's all of this trickle. Yep, it's 492 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: it sure is. And what I one thing I will 493 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: say that it was really interesting to talk to her. 494 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: So there was an episode of my show that I 495 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: taped with Michelle Singletary of the Washington Post about Black women, 496 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: aging and money and she and as part of that 497 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: she talked about intergenerational wealth building and her daughter, who 498 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: is a recent college graduate, is living at home saving 499 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: to buy her first house. I was one of those people. 500 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: It's like I wanted to have my fantasy career. And sometimes, 501 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: like I said, it was fantasy. Sometimes it was nightmare. 502 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: Sometimes it was just work. But I always was spending 503 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: so much money on rent. And I think that we 504 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: do have to start thinking about ways. We don't have 505 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: to live with our parents, but maybe we find new 506 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: ways of building intentional community, like we can have family 507 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: of love and build wealth together. And maybe, for example, 508 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: there is a group of you know, for you know, 509 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: twenty somethings who are like, we're going to have a 510 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: pact where we have a savings plan and we have 511 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: somebody who monitors the savings plan, who holds the money 512 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 1: like a you know, like a banking institution with some 513 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: clear rules, and we're all going to collectively save for 514 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,719 Speaker 1: a mortgage. Yeah. Now we're in the West Indian culture. 515 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: I'm Jamaican. That is called partner or a susu. I 516 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: participated in a su su, you know, and I did it. 517 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: I did it because I wanted to see what collective 518 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: economics look like. You know. My hair my hairdressers from 519 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: Guyana and she was running a susu and then at 520 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: the time she didn't know me that well, and I 521 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I want to do it, and she 522 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: was like, m sidey because what I found out was, 523 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,959 Speaker 1: at least in Miss Susu, if you bring someone in 524 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: and they default, you have to pay for their hand 525 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: as well as your hand. So it's a trust based 526 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: economic system. And so I think we have to start 527 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: going back to things like that and ways of building, 528 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: you know, like this system was not designed for our success, 529 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: so we're going to have to have workarounds and it 530 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: will that won't change some of the dynamics, but it 531 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: allows you to at least control what you can. You know, 532 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: is that what you mean in your book where you 533 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: talk about being psychologically self employed, meaning that you should 534 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: you should be the steward of what it is that 535 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: you actually can control, because there is so much that 536 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: is out of our control. Oh yes. And what it 537 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: also means is don't in the same way that I 538 00:34:53,160 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 1: would tell any human being not to put room, like 539 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: like I've got to be dating somebody and you take abuse, 540 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: like I was in a situation where I had, you know, 541 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: an abusive X and it's it's like you're like, I'll 542 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: just make it work. You know, like the reality is, 543 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: in some cases things just don't work, and your fantasy 544 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: about being that six figure earner or whatever your fantasy is, 545 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: you put yourself through abuse of situations and then you 546 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: naelt down. And I really love Minta Heart's new book 547 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: right within about healing from racial trauma in the workplace, 548 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: because she talks about how, you know, she achieved certain 549 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: salaries and certain dream jobs that left her traumatized and 550 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: mounded and in need of healing. And I can say 551 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: that I did the same thing. So part of it 552 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: is part of psychological self employment, is about financial planning, 553 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: planning for your present and your future, doing what I 554 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: call work style design, so that like if you know 555 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: that you're someone who is a sprinter and not a 556 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,760 Speaker 1: marathon or maybe like for example, one of my friends, 557 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:12,439 Speaker 1: the author k Ibura, who has a ya novel coming 558 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: out next year, when she was the mother of a 559 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: young daughter and she and the father had split up, 560 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: she would work nine months out of the year or 561 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: eight months out of the year in New York, make 562 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: that money and then take her daughter to a a 563 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: place of African heritage around the world, like one year 564 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: it was Bohea, you know, like, and she and they would. 565 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: So she would work hard for a certain amount of 566 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: time so that she could live a full, culturally rich life. 567 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: And then once her child started schools, she wanted to 568 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: be more rooted. But there are ways that you can, 569 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: Like you don't have to be someone who earns a 570 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 1: lot of money to work less time than most Americans do. 571 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: You what you have to do is be frugal, Like 572 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: first of all, like there's a lot of free stuff 573 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: out there, a lot of free stuff, and it's geographic dependent. 574 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: So for example, I was renting until recently in Bethesda, Maryland. 575 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: If you joined the Bethesda free cycle lists, you can 576 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: get all sorts of stuff. So I would also tell 577 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: people there are all sorts of lists listing free stuff. 578 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: Join the list in places where people are giving away 579 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: like last year's furniture, you know what I mean. Yeah, 580 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: Like like go like I am all for up cycling, 581 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: free cycling, like keep your keep your fixed costs low, 582 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: and you can have Like there were times where I 583 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,919 Speaker 1: would just take a break, Like I spent a month 584 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: in Honduras once and I just didn't work for a month, 585 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, And and of course I had to hustle 586 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: at other times. But like, I think that for those 587 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: of us who are lucky enough to have options, we 588 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: can do some really interesting things with those options. But 589 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: no matter what our choices are, there are those people 590 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: who I forget what it's called where they work, they 591 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: keep their costs super low and work to retire by 592 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: the age of thirty five or forty. You know, there's 593 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: and so like, everyone has a different work style and 594 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: first and none of us are going to get exactly 595 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: what we want, but we can make choices within those constructs. 596 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: But one thing that I'm just going to say right 597 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: now is that no matter what your choices are, you 598 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: better save for your own retirement. Don't wait for anybody. 599 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: Like if you're saving at your job, that means you 600 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: are saving, but don't if you are self employed, put 601 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: some of that money away if you are. I mean, 602 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: I was the kind of person who I actually work 603 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: jobs that gave me retirement savings, and at one point 604 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: I dipped into them and spent some of them down. 605 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: And I'm in a good place because I'm in a 606 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: good place overall. But things if if things in my 607 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: career had gone a different way, I might never have 608 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: been able to recoup those at loss. Yeah, and now 609 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,720 Speaker 1: that I'm over fifty, I was able to do something. 610 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: There's something called makeup payments where you can once you're 611 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: over fifty, you can put more of your paycheck into 612 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: your retirement savings than when you're under fifty if you 613 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: feel like you need to make up lost time. So 614 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: there's you know, it's it's all exhausting. It's exhausting to 615 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: look at your options. But you know what's you know, 616 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: what's really exhausting is to find out that you didn't 617 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: look at your options and that you really wish you 618 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: had made other choices. So yeah, because I think that 619 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, you know, 620 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: being at the whim of other people, being at the 621 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: mercy of other people, whether it be nonprofit you know, 622 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: organizations or in corporate America, they're all extractive. And I 623 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: think that what this time presents for people is to 624 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: really think about how they want to engage with work, right, 625 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: Like how you know, because because you depending on your 626 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: education and depending on your geographics, like, there are ways 627 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: in which to design the life that you want. There 628 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: are ways for you to figure out and center yourself 629 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: on the fact that you know what maybe that six 630 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: figure job that is going to drain my soul isn't 631 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: exactly what it is that I want to do. Maybe 632 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,959 Speaker 1: I realize I don't need as much money, I don't 633 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: need as much house, I don't need as much as 634 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: like is being dictated to me through capitalism and this 635 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: keeping up, you know, grind hustle culture, that maybe maybe 636 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 1: there's an opportunity to reorient my values and then find 637 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: work that is that is in alignment. Yeah. I couldn't 638 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: agree more. And I mean, I will say that right now. 639 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: You know, I just recently left, uh, you know, like 640 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: a traditional FTE and I'm working for myself again. And 641 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: I've worked for myself before, but I didn't do the 642 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: things that I know to do now, which is that 643 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: I better budget for retirement savings. If I'm going to 644 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: work for myself, I'm also going to work for my 645 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: own retirement. And also, you know, there's the black tax, 646 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, at least that's what they call it in 647 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: South Africa, which is that those of us who make 648 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: it to a certain level, we have people to take 649 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: care of, you know, whether it's you know, blood relatives, partners, whatever, like, 650 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: we often end up paying for things for other people. 651 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 1: So I've sent money back to Zimbabwe, I've sent money 652 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: to Baltimore. And to also figure out what is your 653 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: relationship to the black tax? Like are you someone who 654 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: really has to draw the line and say no, I 655 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: can't which is acceptable, by the way, it is acceptable 656 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: to say no, I cannot finance whatever thing, no matter 657 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: how worthy it is. Are you someone who puts away 658 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: a certain amount of money to help your friends, neighbors, relatives, whatever. 659 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 1: These are strategies. Like if you come from an upper 660 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: middle class family where you're used to getting the house 661 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: down payment from your parents, you might not have to 662 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: think about this, but a lot of us have to 663 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: think about how we resource other people and when we 664 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: resource other people and not make it something that that 665 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: really drains us. Yeah, I mean I percent agree, and 666 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: there is there is so much to think about these 667 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: days in terms of, you know, our relationship to each other, 668 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: how we build community. I'm still thinking about what you 669 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,280 Speaker 1: just said in terms of like building your own community. 670 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: You don't have to live with your parents, but what 671 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: does what does that look like? What does it look 672 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: like to build out economic safety outside of you know, 673 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: the traditional four oh one k if that's not the 674 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: kind of work that you are doing. And so what 675 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: are the machinations of that that allow us to have 676 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 1: more freedom in our day to day lives? Is actually 677 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: for black and brown and you know BIPOC folks who 678 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: you know from the jump, we're already behind in the 679 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: freedom game, you know, and just trying to articulate that truth. 680 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: The final question that I have for you for eyes, 681 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: like for young people. I have young people in my family, 682 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: you know, who are in their early you know, early 683 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 1: to mid twenties and thinking that in all honesty that 684 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: they have all the time in the world to figure 685 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,360 Speaker 1: out their life. And I have become that older person 686 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: that's just like, well, you may want to start thinking 687 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: about things now right as opposed to waiting teny years. 688 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,799 Speaker 1: What advice do you have for those people that are 689 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: either like f the system, I don't even want to 690 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: participate in it, but then have no other plans, or 691 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: are not recognizing how quickly things devolve and how fast 692 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: time goes. Yeah, I mean some of it is just 693 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, school of life and hard knocks, you know, 694 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,280 Speaker 1: like sometimes people will not know until they know themselves elves. 695 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: But I would say that it was really liberating to 696 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: me when I started developing the friendships where I could 697 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: really talk about sex and what it was and wasn't 698 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: with people who I loved and trusted. And money is 699 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: the same thing. You've got to find people who you 700 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 1: can have those intimate conversations within money is an intimate conversation. 701 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,879 Speaker 1: Find people who you can have an intimate conversation with, Like, 702 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm scared. I'm scared that I won't ever. I'm scared 703 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: that I will. I'm scared that this will happen. Like, 704 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: find people who you trust, and sometimes the people who 705 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: you think you can trust are not as trustworthy, so 706 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, judge it. But like so many people are 707 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: scared about money, I just bought my first house. I'm 708 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: fifty two years old. Why did I buy my first 709 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: house at fifty two Because I saw how much it 710 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: was really challenge lenging to my mother to be a homeowner, 711 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 1: you know, to be a single black mother who's a homeowner. 712 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: It was hard and I didn't want to put myself 713 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: in that position and I had to really deprogram myself. 714 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: So find people who you love and trust who can 715 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: help you deal with your fears. Thank you so much 716 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: for making time today for our today. The book is 717 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: The Episodic Career. I just want to thank you so 718 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: much for your work, for sharing so many truths right 719 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: that like, we all have an opportunity to have moments 720 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: of you know where I call stop, pivot and reflect 721 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,879 Speaker 1: right to make those changes because the world is being 722 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: disruptive and disrupted in a lot of ways, which I 723 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: like to think can also create opportunities out of the 724 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: obstacles that they present. And I think that your book, 725 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: The Episodic Career is a guide. So I appreciate you. 726 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I appreciate you, Danielle, thank you. 727 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: That is it for me here, Folks on woke f 728 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: daily as always. Power to the people and to all 729 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.