WEBVTT - NY Says Trump Inflated Assets by $2.2 Billion 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:08.520 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.079 It's four weeks until the start of the trial in 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.880 the New York Attorney General's two hundred and fifty million 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.880 dollar lawsuit against Donald Trump and two of his sons 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.720 for an alleged scheme to manipulate the value of a 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.599 range of assets, from his skyscrapers to his golf resorts. 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.040 Trump denies the charges and has criticized New York Attorney 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.600 General Letitia James many times, saying it's a political prosecution 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:36.040 that she campaigned on. 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.960 But she proclaimed I look forward to going into the 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.600 office of Attorney General every single day, suing him and 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.080 then going home being very happy. I said, oh gee, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.559 I hope she gets in. I hope she will. But 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.760 she announced what is fueling my soul right now is 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.480 Trump getting Trump And she knows nothing about me. 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.520 But the Ag says the evidence against Trump is so 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.120 extensive that the judge should find Trump libel on the 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.759 fraud claims before the trial. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:13.360 reporter Patricia Hurtado. Leticia James says the evidence is so 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.040 extensive that the judge should find Trump libel for fraud 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:21.120 without a trial. What kind of evidence is she talking about. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.559 Well, they have Trump's own words, and they're confronting him 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.400 with statements he's made about how he values his property. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.959 And it's quite extraordinary because basically it's almost as if 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:38.560 Trump is saying he believes his brand is limitless and 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.360 that his brand, the Trump brand, and his properties are 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.959 worth more money since he was elected president, and he 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.720 calls them the mona Lisas of properties. He says, for example, 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.000 that you can have an old Master painting on your 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.440 wall and it is worth a lot of money even 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.880 though it doesn't do anything. So carrying his properties to 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.880 old Master paintings, she says he. 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.360 Had a net worth of no more than two point 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.040 six billion dollars rather than his stated net worth of 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.079 up to six point one billion dollars. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.200 Well, he's accused of inflating his assets by at least 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.680 eight hundred and twelve million to two point two billion, 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:24.000 is what she alleges. The transcript is basically the first 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.800 time we have a glimpse into Trump's mindset of how 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:33.720 he came to value his companies. He also shockingly says 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.920 he has no role in the valuation that he says 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.360 it was up to his son, Eric Trump to handle 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.560 the main day to day operations of the companies and 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.160 to do these assessments of value. So he basically takes 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.560 all this out of his hands and says that it's 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:50.680 up to his kids. 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.280 Are we talking about just properties in New York? 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.120 No, We're talking about properties all over the place. He's 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.280 talking about Mara a Lago, he talks about his golf 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:04.320 courses all over the country. But basically the argument is 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:09.760 that he's misstated or inflated the assets the Trump Organization, 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.320 and which is an umbrella organization or corporation under which 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.760 all these other entities come. That Trump has overvalued their 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.560 worth based on what he thinks it's worth. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.080 So one thing I sort of found odd is and 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.000 he said this in an interview with Sean Hannity, that 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.280 the Trump Organization had a very powerful disclaimer on all 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.360 of its loan applications, telling banks not to rely on 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:34.880 the company's appraisals. 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.080 That's the argument he's going to make. You know, hey, buyer, 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.680 beware the caveat answer right, that it's the problem of 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.200 anyone who read these material that they should have never 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:48.160 been hoodwinked. Some may argue that, and I'm sure Leticia 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.280 James is going to argue at the trial, Hey, you 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.840 put this stuff in. You can't say, oh, I'm excused 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.080 because I have a footnote that says it's really not. 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.320 It's up to you to believe me or not. That's 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.040 the kind of thing that a jury in New York 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.160 State will have to determine whether or not this is fraudulent. 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.480 Attorneys always make some rejudgment motions. It's sort of a 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.720 shot in the dark. Really, I mean, what are the 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.400 chances that a judge would grant a some rejudgment motion 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.600 in a case like this, with the result being that 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.680 it could ban Trump from serving as a director of 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:25.040 any New York based company. 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.880 Yeah, I mean the judge has been very critical of 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:34.000 motions and efforts by Trump and his lawyers. In fact, 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.560 today there's some discussions about repleting and making new arguments 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.400 that they've already lost. But I mean, now you know, 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.480 the rubber has hit the road. We're finally seeing what 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.000 Trump said as well as what his kids say. There's 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.919 different depositions. There was one from Ellen Weiselberg that makes 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.760 references to his time in prison. You know, his travails 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.320 with getting convicted as the CFO of the Trump organization 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.480 and fleeting guilty. So I mean, now it's sort of 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.280 all the cards that Letitia James has are on the table, 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.040 all the evidence that she's collected. It's massive. It's hundreds 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.240 of pages of statements, and I guess it just depends 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.320 whether or not a New York State Supreme Court jury 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.960 how they'll find they believe these arguments. He at one 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.320 point said, you know a property. There's a property called 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:30.200 Seven Springs in Westchester, and even though it's swampy and 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.240 there's nothing developed, he said, it's worth a ton of 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.440 money in his view because it could get developed. So 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.559 in his mind, that aspirational amount of money is worth 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.800 it because he has the Trump brand. He's even better 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.200 now because he was former President Trump, and now aspirationally 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.120 it's worth a ton of money because it could be 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.480 developed even though it hasn't been developed. 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.920 Why are these depositions being revealed now, Well. 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.960 Because the New York Attorney General has basically put down 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:05.000 own showing all the documents now of all the questioning 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:09.200 of all the parties, and it seems to be quite 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:15.719 compelling case that she's making that these valuations were speculative 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:21.720 or based on slimsy premises, so to call his properties, 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.280 you know, it could be worth two million, forty million, 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:29.800 thirty million, six hundred million, you know. Basically he kind 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.120 of even in his own testimony when talking about you know, 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.159 what's the intrinsic value of mar Lago or Turnberry golf 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.080 course in Scotland. Quote, you know, these things have tremendous 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.520 value to rich people that you know, if it makes 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.360 two millions three million, and therefore would be worth thirty 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.719 or forty million, I think you could sell it for 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.440 four or five or six hundred million, because it's the painting, 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:53.720 you know. I mean, that's kind of that's the kind 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.920 of rationale that may give a jury pause and have 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.800 them scratching their heads. So, I mean, I don't know 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.800 where this is an effort to possibly push discussions forward 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:09.120 to sdeed liability. I assume that Trump will not let them, 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.400 you know, agree to accept liability. But this is certainly 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.040 quite something that Letitia James is showing her cards. They're 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.160 all on the table, and it kind of is gobsmackingly 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:21.400 shocking in some way. 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.360 At his first deposition in August of twenty twenty two, 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.880 he invoked the Fifth Amendment more than four hundred times 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.200 and refuse to answer questions. Then at the second one 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:36.680 in April of twenty twenty three, he answered questions at length. 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.560 The Deputy ag said to his lawyer at one point, 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:41.880 we're going to be here until midnight if your client 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.200 answers every question with an eight minute speech, right right. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.560 I look at transcripts all the time on cases, but 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:54.679 the long answering answers are quite something. So I guess 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.000 the floodgates were open at this point, and he felt 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.640 he could justify his explanation for all these valuations on 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.000 the property. So it's kind of like, I guess, once 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.240 he opened the door, I couldn't stop talking about how 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:10.960 he came up with all these, you know, the values 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.440 on these properties, and he's very proud of them. You know, 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.840 he's proud of developing things like forty Wall Street. He 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:21.120 said it was basically a dumpy building until his family 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.720 took it over. And you know, also the reason it 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.760 may not be worth anything more is because the city 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.600 needs to get its act together. So if the city 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.920 ever comes back and you convert the entire tower of 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.440 forty Wall into condos, and may you could make an 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.400 absolute fortune far greater than the five or six hundred million. 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:42.280 Probably the building is worth now. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.200 So I guess I see why the Attorney General thinks 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.920 that she can have the judge ruled just on the 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:52.760 paper is because there's his deposition, there is the financial papers. 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:55.880 Also in his testimony. You read it all, Patty, So 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.800 tell me where did it come out that he considered 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.079 the presidency the most important job in the world, saving 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.479 millions of lives. I think you would have nuclear holocaust 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.000 if I didn't deal with North Korea. I think you 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.160 would have a nuclear war if I weren't elected. Where 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.560 did that fit into his deposition? 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.960 Well, he was basically boasting that this is what he's 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.480 been busy doing. He says, I was virtually not involved 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.240 in this business with the real estate. 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:23.880 Quote. 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.320 I really wasn't interested, believe it or not. I was 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.560 interested in saving the problem with North Korea, which was 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.080 ready to blow up, and solving the problems we had 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.200 in China, who was just ripping us off left and right, 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.240 and making sure that Russia never went into the Ukraine, 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.000 which they didn't under our auspices. So you can see 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.040 that he's basically saying I wasn't really involved in the 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.480 Trump Org and all the business operations. That wasn't my job. 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:49.760 I was saving the WARLD. 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.760 And Michael Cohen, his former lawyer who has testified against him, 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.440 says he's throwing his kids under the bus because they 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.000 were the ones in charge, right, Yeah. 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.120 And I was kind of surprided by that because when 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.480 he was asked point blank, well were you involved in 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.600 what were you doing? He said no, as Eric Trump 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:09.240 was doing it, I wasn't. So it is kind of surprising, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.960 but you know, I guess in his mind that's what 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:17.520 he wanted to say, that Eric Trump was doing the business. Quote, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.480 my son Eric is much more involved with it than 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.120 I am. I've been doing other things, and I guess 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.800 you could say on something major final decisions, whatever, but 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.600 I've been much less involved in it over the last 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.160 five years, five or six years ever before that. 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.960 So Patty remind us what's at stake here if he 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.120 loses this case completely. 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.800 Well, I mean basically, Letitia James seeks to sanction him 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.800 and also remove him from ever running any of his companies, 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:47.520 which would be quite a blow. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:48.080 You know. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.960 The sons have also been sued Eric and Don Junior 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.080 Ivanka was removed as a descendant. So you know, I 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.920 guess it will hobble the family from running its own 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.800 businesses and possibly close them down. 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.840 And Pat, before I let you go, you covered. And 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.240 we've talked about a case where a former twenty first 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:16.320 Century Fox executive and an Urguayan sports marketing group, full Play, 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.679 were convicted of engaging in a wire fraud and money 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:25.920 laundering scheme to get inside information to secure US broadcasting 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.600 rights to the twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two World 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.199 Cup tournaments. Why did the federal judge in that case 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.240 overturn those convictions. 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.920 We had a decisions, a pair of decisions having to 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.160 do with seft of honest services wire fraud, and it 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:45.839 has to do with a component of bribery, you know, 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:51.200 federal bribery wire fraud. And basically, this former twenty first 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:56.680 century Fox executive, Ernan Lopez, and this company then Uruguay 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.440 and sports marketing company called full Play, went on trial 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.760 and it went on for weeks in federal court and 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.760 they were convicted by a jury of multiple counts of 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:12.040 wire fraud. And that was in March when they were convicted, 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.800 and then we had two decisions to come out in 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:20.800 May from the Supreme Court stemming from federal corruption cases 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:26.800 that Manhattan US Attorney Bararra brought against elected officials for 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:31.320 public corruption, for bribe pain and bribe receiving anyway. The 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.679 Court rules in those two decisions involving per Cocoa and 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:41.640 Seminelli basically narrowing or limiting the prosecutor's ability to use 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:46.439 the statute when it came to bribery, and it gets 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.800 very complicated that basically it hampers the government from bringing 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.640 these certain kind of wire fraud cases under certain theories. 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:57.440 So in this case, the judge who had had this 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:02.560 trial it was hotly contested, repet rejected any requests to 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.280 overturn the conviction or dismiss the charges. Here we have 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.360 two months later the Supreme Court ruling comes in about 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.880 you can't use the statute anymore, and she actually said 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:18.800 there was no international bribery component that could be met 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.760 now under the new standard that the Supreme Court has assigned. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.400 So you know, she said, she noted that she had 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:30.000 previously rejected the defendant's arguments for acquittal, and now she 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.360 had to do it in light of the Supreme Court ruling. 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.240 Yeah, they always have trouble with these public corruption cases. Yeah, 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.640 I mean they're always going up to the Supreme Court. 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.920 Yeah. I mean we wrote a feature story about this 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.280 for the Business Week, and I talked to one of 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.080 these good government guys and he said, the Supreme Court 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.400 and have basically said it's up to the states to 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.600 prosecute these cases. But his point was New York State, 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.680 which is where this corruption allegedly happened, where people were 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.880 doing did Regaine and alleged bright pain Now, I mean 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.880 they were convicted of it. That public officials. Now, it 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.400 would be up to state prosecutors to bring these kinds 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.000 of cases. But he said that unfortunately, he said, state 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.240 law is like Swiss cheese. It's not very good. It's 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.000 so porous. It doesn't have as much heft that the 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.760 US did. And if we remember all the way back 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:32.120 pre Ferrara's crackdown, which is what these cases stemmed from, 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.720 was supposedly, you know, rife corruption with elected officials were 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:41.520 taking bribes and paying developers are getting paid kickbacks. So 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.720 who is going to enforce this now It's been left 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.040 up to the states to do it. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.720 Thanks so much, Pat, That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado. 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.800 This is a dark day in Jacksonville's history. Any loss 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.000 of life is tragic, but the hate that motivated the 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:00.000 shooter's killing spree adds an additional layer of hardbreak. 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.600 A masked white man shot and killed three black people 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:08.640 inside a Jacksonville, Florida, Dollar General store on Saturday. He 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.960 used a gun painted with a swastika and then turned 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.280 the gun on himself. After reviewing the man's writings, Sheriff T. K. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:19.960 Waters said the attack was definitely racially motivated. 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.960 It was clear that his crimes were motivated by wanting 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.080 to want of to shoe black people, which is quite 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.560 unfortunate because it's not a representative of our community at all. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.200 The shooting took place within hours of the conclusion of 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:38.960 a commemorative march on Washington in the nation's capital, where 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.080 organizers drew attention to the growing threat of hate motivated 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.840 violence against people of color. The attack on a shopping 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:51.360 center in a predominantly black neighborhood will undoubtedly evoke fears 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.920 of past shootings targeting Black Americans, like the one at 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.720 a Buffalo, New York supermarket in twenty twenty two and 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.360 the one at a History or African Methodist Episcopal Church 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:08.320 in Charleston, South Carolina in twenty fifteen, his President Joe Biden. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.920 White supremacy is a poison. It's a poison. It's been 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.040 allowed to grow faster and faster in our communities to 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.320 the point where the intelligence communities determined. The US intelligence 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.720 community is determined that domestic terrorism rooted in white supremacy 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.800 is the greatest terrorist threat we face in the home line. 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.280 And a new study provided to USA Today shows that 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.720 in the country's largest ten cities, the number of reported 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.240 hate crimes rose twenty two percent from twenty twenty one 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:43.280 to twenty twenty two, making last year the second consecutive 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.880 year hate crimes reached a record high. The Justice Department 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.920 is investigating the shooting as a hate crime and an 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:55.320 act of racially motivated violent extremism. Joining me is Professor 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:59.840 Gabriel Chin of the UC Davis School of Law. The 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.800 NAACP issued a travel advisory this spring warning black people 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.120 to use extreme care if traveling to Florida, and argued 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.600 that the state's loose gun laws and Republican Governor Ron DeSantis' 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:18.160 anti woke campaign to deny the existence of systemic racism 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.520 created a culture of open hostility toward African Americans and 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:23.479 people of color. 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:29.240 What's your reaction, Well, I'm afraid that what Governor DeSantis 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.960 and his allies are doing might contribute to an atmosphere 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.320 of hostility, resentment, potential violence. It's not as though Governor 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:44.600 Desanta's unlike maybe President Trump has not specifically advocated resistance 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:49.080 and protests and taking action in those ways. But you know, 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.640 the effort to cut down discussion of critical race theory, 0:17:55.560 --> 0:18:01.000 the attack on the African American studies ap these standards, 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:06.360 it seems to me to be an effort to essentially 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.440 rewrite history and then cut off all discussion about that history. 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.919 It seems like the governor of Florida, which was a 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.639 slave state and was a significant Jim Crow state and 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.040 a highly segregated state, and in many ways a deeply, 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.560 deeply discriminatory state, they want to pretend that that history 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.600 doesn't exist, or maybe not that it doesn't exist, but 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.920 that it has nothing to do with our lives today. 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:37.679 And if that's your view, if your view is, you know, 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.640 some bad things happened many, many years ago, and there's 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.560 been fair and equal treatment in the lives of everybody 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.480 who's around today and their parents and their grandparents, and 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:55.000 discrimination is really, you know, it's the equivalent of something 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.399 that happened to the ancient Egyptians. If that's your view, 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:05.160 then when African Americans are Asian Americans or Arab Americans 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.720 or anybody else objects to discriminatory treatment or raises questions 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:14.679 about discriminatory treatment, it seems like grasping. It seems like, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.240 you know, if it really were ancient history, it would 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.960 seem like, you know, an illegitimate effort to take things 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.480 that don't belong to them, to be a race hustler 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.640 and get ahead based on false arguments and therefore take 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.120 advantage of good people who did nothing wrong. And I'm 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:37.359 afraid that's the dynamic that may be going on in 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:42.960 the minds of some extremists in Florida. And the problem 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.879 is that there are some extremists in Florida, just like 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.840 in every other place, there are people who are not 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:54.159 well versed in history, who are not very good at reasoning. 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:59.000 Maybe people like this individual who did the shooting in Jacksonville, 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.399 who have ment health problems. I'm not an expert on 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.159 his situation, but apparently he had some mental health problems 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.520 at various points in his life, and somebody like that 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:15.840 might be susceptible to really picking up conspiracy theories and 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:20.080 taking action based on it. I mean, it's just so 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.480 outlandish and so crazy that somebody would say it's worth 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.520 it to me to kill some people, even though I'm 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.960 going to die myself, you know, because they are doing 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:35.480 so much wrong to the community. It's outlandish. It's outlandish. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:40.800 But unfortunately, I think the rhetoric of resentment, the rhetoric 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.560 that people who say that Florida and other places have 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.120 had too much racism for too long and that has 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.880 to be addressed. I fear there may be a connection. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:54.520 You know, since twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, there does seem 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.080 to have been a general increase in these sorts of 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:04.679 violent attacks against American races, against Unamerican religions, and you know, 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.960 given the tenor of the times, I'm afraid that we 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:09.000 haven't seen the last of it. 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:15.640 So the Jacksonville Sheriff T. K. Waters said, plainly put, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.679 this shooting was racially motivated and he hated black people. 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.359 I mean, this seemed to be pretty clear cut to 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:24.760 the sheriff. But what does it take for the Justice 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:26.919 Department to say this is a hate crime and this 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:28.720 is going to be a hate crime investigation. 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:33.520 Well, so it's a really interesting situation because there's no 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.320 potential defendant here, the defendant is dead, and it doesn't 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:43.520 look like the guns were illegally transferred. And the ideology 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:46.880 that this is a white country or maybe a white 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:51.240 Christian country for white Christian people and people who don't 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.320 fit into that category are harmful to the society and 0:21:55.520 --> 0:22:00.080 undermine it. That is a hateful ideology and ideology that 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:04.560 I think is wrong and dangerous, but it's one that 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.359 people are allowed to have because we do have a 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.399 First Amendment and we do have freedom of thought, and 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.680 if people want to have those ideas, they can. So 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:17.640 it's not one hundred percent clear to me, is interesting 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.520 what the Department of Justice may hope to find out. 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.160 But to back up a bit, they do have jurisdiction 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:28.879 over hate crimes. There are certain acts of violence based 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:36.560 on certain prohibited grounds such as race, religion, gender disability, 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:41.760 gender identity, sexual orientation. If there are certain violent acts 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:45.200 that take place on those grounds and it can be proved, 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.000 then the Department of Justice can prosecute people who do 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:53.000 those things in federal court. And beyond that, the Department 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:58.439 of Justice has the ability to investigate situations even if 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:02.800 it doesn't appear there's a there's a hate crime per se, 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:09.400 But they have the ability to investigate situations where, for example, 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:11.840 civil rights might be violated. 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.719 It would sort of be a broad investigation then, because 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.000 as you said, there's no defendant. It's not like they're 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.359 saying the police did something wrong or something like that. 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.800 It's just to investigate the community. 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:28.800 It seems to me like that's what's going on here, 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:32.800 that they are investigating what is going on in the 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.560 community that led to this. But the thing is, this 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:39.760 is not the first act of racial violence. It's not 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:42.520 the first act of racial violence in Florida. It's not 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:44.919 the first time somebody has looked into it. There have 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:48.680 been civil rights investigations by the state and federal government 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.919 and by private entities that are concerned about these things. 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:56.560 And so it's predictable what the Department of Justice is 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.800 going to find out that motivated this particular offender. And 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.240 you know, for an American in the twenty first century 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:09.800 to decorate their property with swastikas, And there was a 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.480 report that the offender here had a vest with a 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:19.119 Rhodesian army patch on it, and that evidently is a meme, 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:26.120 a common white supremacist symbol. And one would bet that 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:28.320 what the Department of Justice is going to find out 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:34.000 is that this individual was radicalized by white supremacist ideology 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:38.879 that is readily available on a million and one place, 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:42.440 is on the internet, and people who make the argument 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.159 that the people who are the rightful heirs of this 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:49.840 country the descendants of white Europeans. At one time the 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:53.040 United States was organized for their benefit, which is true 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:55.920 in many ways, and now it isn't. And you see 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.639