1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: It's four weeks until the start of the trial in 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: the New York Attorney General's two hundred and fifty million 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: dollar lawsuit against Donald Trump and two of his sons 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: for an alleged scheme to manipulate the value of a 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: range of assets, from his skyscrapers to his golf resorts. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: Trump denies the charges and has criticized New York Attorney 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: General Letitia James many times, saying it's a political prosecution 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: that she campaigned on. 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: But she proclaimed I look forward to going into the 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: office of Attorney General every single day, suing him and 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: then going home being very happy. I said, oh gee, 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: I hope she gets in. I hope she will. But 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: she announced what is fueling my soul right now is 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 2: Trump getting Trump And she knows nothing about me. 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: But the Ag says the evidence against Trump is so 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: extensive that the judge should find Trump libel on the 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: fraud claims before the trial. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: reporter Patricia Hurtado. Leticia James says the evidence is so 20 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: extensive that the judge should find Trump libel for fraud 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: without a trial. What kind of evidence is she talking about. 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 3: Well, they have Trump's own words, and they're confronting him 23 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 3: with statements he's made about how he values his property. 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 3: And it's quite extraordinary because basically it's almost as if 25 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 3: Trump is saying he believes his brand is limitless and 26 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 3: that his brand, the Trump brand, and his properties are 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 3: worth more money since he was elected president, and he 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: calls them the mona Lisas of properties. He says, for example, 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 3: that you can have an old Master painting on your 30 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: wall and it is worth a lot of money even 31 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 3: though it doesn't do anything. So carrying his properties to 32 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 3: old Master paintings, she says he. 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: Had a net worth of no more than two point 34 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: six billion dollars rather than his stated net worth of 35 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: up to six point one billion dollars. 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: Well, he's accused of inflating his assets by at least 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 3: eight hundred and twelve million to two point two billion, 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: is what she alleges. The transcript is basically the first 39 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 3: time we have a glimpse into Trump's mindset of how 40 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 3: he came to value his companies. He also shockingly says 41 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 3: he has no role in the valuation that he says 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 3: it was up to his son, Eric Trump to handle 43 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: the main day to day operations of the companies and 44 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: to do these assessments of value. So he basically takes 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 3: all this out of his hands and says that it's 46 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: up to his kids. 47 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: Are we talking about just properties in New York? 48 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 3: No, We're talking about properties all over the place. He's 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 3: talking about Mara a Lago, he talks about his golf 50 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: courses all over the country. But basically the argument is 51 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: that he's misstated or inflated the assets the Trump Organization, 52 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 3: and which is an umbrella organization or corporation under which 53 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: all these other entities come. That Trump has overvalued their 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 3: worth based on what he thinks it's worth. 55 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: So one thing I sort of found odd is and 56 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: he said this in an interview with Sean Hannity, that 57 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: the Trump Organization had a very powerful disclaimer on all 58 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: of its loan applications, telling banks not to rely on 59 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: the company's appraisals. 60 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 3: That's the argument he's going to make. You know, hey, buyer, 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: beware the caveat answer right, that it's the problem of 62 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: anyone who read these material that they should have never 63 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 3: been hoodwinked. Some may argue that, and I'm sure Leticia 64 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 3: James is going to argue at the trial, Hey, you 65 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: put this stuff in. You can't say, oh, I'm excused 66 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: because I have a footnote that says it's really not. 67 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: It's up to you to believe me or not. That's 68 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 3: the kind of thing that a jury in New York 69 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: State will have to determine whether or not this is fraudulent. 70 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: Attorneys always make some rejudgment motions. It's sort of a 71 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: shot in the dark. Really, I mean, what are the 72 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: chances that a judge would grant a some rejudgment motion 73 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: in a case like this, with the result being that 74 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: it could ban Trump from serving as a director of 75 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: any New York based company. 76 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the judge has been very critical of 77 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: motions and efforts by Trump and his lawyers. In fact, 78 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: today there's some discussions about repleting and making new arguments 79 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 3: that they've already lost. But I mean, now you know, 80 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 3: the rubber has hit the road. We're finally seeing what 81 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 3: Trump said as well as what his kids say. There's 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 3: different depositions. There was one from Ellen Weiselberg that makes 83 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: references to his time in prison. You know, his travails 84 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: with getting convicted as the CFO of the Trump organization 85 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 3: and fleeting guilty. So I mean, now it's sort of 86 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 3: all the cards that Letitia James has are on the table, 87 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 3: all the evidence that she's collected. It's massive. It's hundreds 88 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: of pages of statements, and I guess it just depends 89 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: whether or not a New York State Supreme Court jury 90 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: how they'll find they believe these arguments. He at one 91 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: point said, you know a property. There's a property called 92 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: Seven Springs in Westchester, and even though it's swampy and 93 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: there's nothing developed, he said, it's worth a ton of 94 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: money in his view because it could get developed. So 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 3: in his mind, that aspirational amount of money is worth 96 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 3: it because he has the Trump brand. He's even better 97 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 3: now because he was former President Trump, and now aspirationally 98 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: it's worth a ton of money because it could be 99 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 3: developed even though it hasn't been developed. 100 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: Why are these depositions being revealed now, Well. 101 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: Because the New York Attorney General has basically put down 102 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: own showing all the documents now of all the questioning 103 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: of all the parties, and it seems to be quite 104 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 3: compelling case that she's making that these valuations were speculative 105 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 3: or based on slimsy premises, so to call his properties, 106 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 3: you know, it could be worth two million, forty million, 107 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: thirty million, six hundred million, you know. Basically he kind 108 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 3: of even in his own testimony when talking about you know, 109 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 3: what's the intrinsic value of mar Lago or Turnberry golf 110 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: course in Scotland. Quote, you know, these things have tremendous 111 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: value to rich people that you know, if it makes 112 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 3: two millions three million, and therefore would be worth thirty 113 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 3: or forty million, I think you could sell it for 114 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 3: four or five or six hundred million, because it's the painting, 115 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 3: you know. I mean, that's kind of that's the kind 116 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 3: of rationale that may give a jury pause and have 117 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 3: them scratching their heads. So, I mean, I don't know 118 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 3: where this is an effort to possibly push discussions forward 119 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: to sdeed liability. I assume that Trump will not let them, 120 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 3: you know, agree to accept liability. But this is certainly 121 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: quite something that Letitia James is showing her cards. They're 122 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: all on the table, and it kind of is gobsmackingly 123 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: shocking in some way. 124 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: At his first deposition in August of twenty twenty two, 125 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: he invoked the Fifth Amendment more than four hundred times 126 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: and refuse to answer questions. Then at the second one 127 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: in April of twenty twenty three, he answered questions at length. 128 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: The Deputy ag said to his lawyer at one point, 129 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: we're going to be here until midnight if your client 130 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: answers every question with an eight minute speech, right right. 131 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 3: I look at transcripts all the time on cases, but 132 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 3: the long answering answers are quite something. So I guess 133 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: the floodgates were open at this point, and he felt 134 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: he could justify his explanation for all these valuations on 135 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: the property. So it's kind of like, I guess, once 136 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 3: he opened the door, I couldn't stop talking about how 137 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: he came up with all these, you know, the values 138 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: on these properties, and he's very proud of them. You know, 139 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: he's proud of developing things like forty Wall Street. He 140 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 3: said it was basically a dumpy building until his family 141 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: took it over. And you know, also the reason it 142 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: may not be worth anything more is because the city 143 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 3: needs to get its act together. So if the city 144 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: ever comes back and you convert the entire tower of 145 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: forty Wall into condos, and may you could make an 146 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: absolute fortune far greater than the five or six hundred million. 147 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: Probably the building is worth now. 148 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: So I guess I see why the Attorney General thinks 149 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: that she can have the judge ruled just on the 150 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: paper is because there's his deposition, there is the financial papers. 151 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: Also in his testimony. You read it all, Patty, So 152 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: tell me where did it come out that he considered 153 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: the presidency the most important job in the world, saving 154 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,479 Speaker 1: millions of lives. I think you would have nuclear holocaust 155 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: if I didn't deal with North Korea. I think you 156 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: would have a nuclear war if I weren't elected. Where 157 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: did that fit into his deposition? 158 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: Well, he was basically boasting that this is what he's 159 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 3: been busy doing. He says, I was virtually not involved 160 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: in this business with the real estate. 161 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: Quote. 162 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 3: I really wasn't interested, believe it or not. I was 163 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 3: interested in saving the problem with North Korea, which was 164 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 3: ready to blow up, and solving the problems we had 165 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 3: in China, who was just ripping us off left and right, 166 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: and making sure that Russia never went into the Ukraine, 167 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: which they didn't under our auspices. So you can see 168 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 3: that he's basically saying I wasn't really involved in the 169 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 3: Trump Org and all the business operations. That wasn't my job. 170 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: I was saving the WARLD. 171 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: And Michael Cohen, his former lawyer who has testified against him, 172 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: says he's throwing his kids under the bus because they 173 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: were the ones in charge, right, Yeah. 174 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: And I was kind of surprided by that because when 175 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: he was asked point blank, well were you involved in 176 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 3: what were you doing? He said no, as Eric Trump 177 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 3: was doing it, I wasn't. So it is kind of surprising, 178 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: but you know, I guess in his mind that's what 179 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: he wanted to say, that Eric Trump was doing the business. Quote, 180 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 3: my son Eric is much more involved with it than 181 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 3: I am. I've been doing other things, and I guess 182 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 3: you could say on something major final decisions, whatever, but 183 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 3: I've been much less involved in it over the last 184 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: five years, five or six years ever before that. 185 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: So Patty remind us what's at stake here if he 186 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: loses this case completely. 187 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: Well, I mean basically, Letitia James seeks to sanction him 188 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 3: and also remove him from ever running any of his companies, 189 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 3: which would be quite a blow. 190 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: You know. 191 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 3: The sons have also been sued Eric and Don Junior 192 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: Ivanka was removed as a descendant. So you know, I 193 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: guess it will hobble the family from running its own 194 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 3: businesses and possibly close them down. 195 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: And Pat, before I let you go, you covered. And 196 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: we've talked about a case where a former twenty first 197 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: Century Fox executive and an Urguayan sports marketing group, full Play, 198 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: were convicted of engaging in a wire fraud and money 199 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: laundering scheme to get inside information to secure US broadcasting 200 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: rights to the twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two World 201 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: Cup tournaments. Why did the federal judge in that case 202 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: overturn those convictions. 203 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 3: We had a decisions, a pair of decisions having to 204 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 3: do with seft of honest services wire fraud, and it 205 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 3: has to do with a component of bribery, you know, 206 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 3: federal bribery wire fraud. And basically, this former twenty first 207 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: century Fox executive, Ernan Lopez, and this company then Uruguay 208 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 3: and sports marketing company called full Play, went on trial 209 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 3: and it went on for weeks in federal court and 210 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 3: they were convicted by a jury of multiple counts of 211 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: wire fraud. And that was in March when they were convicted, 212 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: and then we had two decisions to come out in 213 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: May from the Supreme Court stemming from federal corruption cases 214 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: that Manhattan US Attorney Bararra brought against elected officials for 215 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 3: public corruption, for bribe pain and bribe receiving anyway. The 216 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 3: Court rules in those two decisions involving per Cocoa and 217 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 3: Seminelli basically narrowing or limiting the prosecutor's ability to use 218 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 3: the statute when it came to bribery, and it gets 219 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 3: very complicated that basically it hampers the government from bringing 220 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 3: these certain kind of wire fraud cases under certain theories. 221 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 3: So in this case, the judge who had had this 222 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 3: trial it was hotly contested, repet rejected any requests to 223 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: overturn the conviction or dismiss the charges. Here we have 224 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: two months later the Supreme Court ruling comes in about 225 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 3: you can't use the statute anymore, and she actually said 226 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: there was no international bribery component that could be met 227 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: now under the new standard that the Supreme Court has assigned. 228 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 3: So you know, she said, she noted that she had 229 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 3: previously rejected the defendant's arguments for acquittal, and now she 230 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 3: had to do it in light of the Supreme Court ruling. 231 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, they always have trouble with these public corruption cases. Yeah, 232 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: I mean they're always going up to the Supreme Court. 233 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean we wrote a feature story about this 234 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 3: for the Business Week, and I talked to one of 235 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: these good government guys and he said, the Supreme Court 236 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: and have basically said it's up to the states to 237 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: prosecute these cases. But his point was New York State, 238 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 3: which is where this corruption allegedly happened, where people were 239 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 3: doing did Regaine and alleged bright pain Now, I mean 240 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: they were convicted of it. That public officials. Now, it 241 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: would be up to state prosecutors to bring these kinds 242 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 3: of cases. But he said that unfortunately, he said, state 243 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: law is like Swiss cheese. It's not very good. It's 244 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: so porous. It doesn't have as much heft that the 245 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 3: US did. And if we remember all the way back 246 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 3: pre Ferrara's crackdown, which is what these cases stemmed from, 247 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: was supposedly, you know, rife corruption with elected officials were 248 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 3: taking bribes and paying developers are getting paid kickbacks. So 249 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 3: who is going to enforce this now It's been left 250 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 3: up to the states to do it. 251 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Pat, That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado. 252 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 4: This is a dark day in Jacksonville's history. Any loss 253 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 4: of life is tragic, but the hate that motivated the 254 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 4: shooter's killing spree adds an additional layer of hardbreak. 255 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: A masked white man shot and killed three black people 256 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: inside a Jacksonville, Florida, Dollar General store on Saturday. He 257 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: used a gun painted with a swastika and then turned 258 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: the gun on himself. After reviewing the man's writings, Sheriff T. K. 259 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: Waters said the attack was definitely racially motivated. 260 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 4: It was clear that his crimes were motivated by wanting 261 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 4: to want of to shoe black people, which is quite 262 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 4: unfortunate because it's not a representative of our community at all. 263 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: The shooting took place within hours of the conclusion of 264 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: a commemorative march on Washington in the nation's capital, where 265 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: organizers drew attention to the growing threat of hate motivated 266 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: violence against people of color. The attack on a shopping 267 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: center in a predominantly black neighborhood will undoubtedly evoke fears 268 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: of past shootings targeting Black Americans, like the one at 269 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: a Buffalo, New York supermarket in twenty twenty two and 270 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: the one at a History or African Methodist Episcopal Church 271 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: in Charleston, South Carolina in twenty fifteen, his President Joe Biden. 272 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 5: White supremacy is a poison. It's a poison. It's been 273 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 5: allowed to grow faster and faster in our communities to 274 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 5: the point where the intelligence communities determined. The US intelligence 275 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 5: community is determined that domestic terrorism rooted in white supremacy 276 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 5: is the greatest terrorist threat we face in the home line. 277 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: And a new study provided to USA Today shows that 278 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: in the country's largest ten cities, the number of reported 279 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: hate crimes rose twenty two percent from twenty twenty one 280 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: to twenty twenty two, making last year the second consecutive 281 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: year hate crimes reached a record high. The Justice Department 282 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: is investigating the shooting as a hate crime and an 283 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: act of racially motivated violent extremism. Joining me is Professor 284 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: Gabriel Chin of the UC Davis School of Law. The 285 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: NAACP issued a travel advisory this spring warning black people 286 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: to use extreme care if traveling to Florida, and argued 287 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: that the state's loose gun laws and Republican Governor Ron DeSantis' 288 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: anti woke campaign to deny the existence of systemic racism 289 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: created a culture of open hostility toward African Americans and 290 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:23,479 Speaker 1: people of color. 291 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 6: What's your reaction, Well, I'm afraid that what Governor DeSantis 292 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 6: and his allies are doing might contribute to an atmosphere 293 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 6: of hostility, resentment, potential violence. It's not as though Governor 294 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 6: Desanta's unlike maybe President Trump has not specifically advocated resistance 295 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 6: and protests and taking action in those ways. But you know, 296 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 6: the effort to cut down discussion of critical race theory, 297 00:17:55,560 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 6: the attack on the African American studies ap these standards, 298 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 6: it seems to me to be an effort to essentially 299 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 6: rewrite history and then cut off all discussion about that history. 300 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 6: It seems like the governor of Florida, which was a 301 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 6: slave state and was a significant Jim Crow state and 302 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 6: a highly segregated state, and in many ways a deeply, 303 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 6: deeply discriminatory state, they want to pretend that that history 304 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 6: doesn't exist, or maybe not that it doesn't exist, but 305 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 6: that it has nothing to do with our lives today. 306 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 6: And if that's your view, if your view is, you know, 307 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 6: some bad things happened many, many years ago, and there's 308 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 6: been fair and equal treatment in the lives of everybody 309 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 6: who's around today and their parents and their grandparents, and 310 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 6: discrimination is really, you know, it's the equivalent of something 311 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 6: that happened to the ancient Egyptians. If that's your view, 312 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 6: then when African Americans are Asian Americans or Arab Americans 313 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 6: or anybody else objects to discriminatory treatment or raises questions 314 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 6: about discriminatory treatment, it seems like grasping. It seems like, 315 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 6: you know, if it really were ancient history, it would 316 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 6: seem like, you know, an illegitimate effort to take things 317 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 6: that don't belong to them, to be a race hustler 318 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 6: and get ahead based on false arguments and therefore take 319 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 6: advantage of good people who did nothing wrong. And I'm 320 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 6: afraid that's the dynamic that may be going on in 321 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 6: the minds of some extremists in Florida. And the problem 322 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 6: is that there are some extremists in Florida, just like 323 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 6: in every other place, there are people who are not 324 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 6: well versed in history, who are not very good at reasoning. 325 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 6: Maybe people like this individual who did the shooting in Jacksonville, 326 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 6: who have ment health problems. I'm not an expert on 327 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 6: his situation, but apparently he had some mental health problems 328 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 6: at various points in his life, and somebody like that 329 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 6: might be susceptible to really picking up conspiracy theories and 330 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 6: taking action based on it. I mean, it's just so 331 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 6: outlandish and so crazy that somebody would say it's worth 332 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 6: it to me to kill some people, even though I'm 333 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 6: going to die myself, you know, because they are doing 334 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 6: so much wrong to the community. It's outlandish. It's outlandish. 335 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 6: But unfortunately, I think the rhetoric of resentment, the rhetoric 336 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 6: that people who say that Florida and other places have 337 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 6: had too much racism for too long and that has 338 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 6: to be addressed. I fear there may be a connection. 339 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 6: You know, since twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, there does seem 340 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 6: to have been a general increase in these sorts of 341 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 6: violent attacks against American races, against Unamerican religions, and you know, 342 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 6: given the tenor of the times, I'm afraid that we 343 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 6: haven't seen the last of it. 344 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: So the Jacksonville Sheriff T. K. Waters said, plainly put, 345 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: this shooting was racially motivated and he hated black people. 346 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: I mean, this seemed to be pretty clear cut to 347 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: the sheriff. But what does it take for the Justice 348 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: Department to say this is a hate crime and this 349 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: is going to be a hate crime investigation. 350 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 6: Well, so it's a really interesting situation because there's no 351 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 6: potential defendant here, the defendant is dead, and it doesn't 352 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 6: look like the guns were illegally transferred. And the ideology 353 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 6: that this is a white country or maybe a white 354 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 6: Christian country for white Christian people and people who don't 355 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 6: fit into that category are harmful to the society and 356 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 6: undermine it. That is a hateful ideology and ideology that 357 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 6: I think is wrong and dangerous, but it's one that 358 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 6: people are allowed to have because we do have a 359 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 6: First Amendment and we do have freedom of thought, and 360 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 6: if people want to have those ideas, they can. So 361 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 6: it's not one hundred percent clear to me, is interesting 362 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 6: what the Department of Justice may hope to find out. 363 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 6: But to back up a bit, they do have jurisdiction 364 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 6: over hate crimes. There are certain acts of violence based 365 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 6: on certain prohibited grounds such as race, religion, gender disability, 366 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 6: gender identity, sexual orientation. If there are certain violent acts 367 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 6: that take place on those grounds and it can be proved, 368 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 6: then the Department of Justice can prosecute people who do 369 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 6: those things in federal court. And beyond that, the Department 370 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 6: of Justice has the ability to investigate situations even if 371 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 6: it doesn't appear there's a there's a hate crime per se, 372 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 6: But they have the ability to investigate situations where, for example, 373 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 6: civil rights might be violated. 374 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 1: It would sort of be a broad investigation then, because 375 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: as you said, there's no defendant. It's not like they're 376 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: saying the police did something wrong or something like that. 377 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: It's just to investigate the community. 378 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 6: It seems to me like that's what's going on here, 379 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 6: that they are investigating what is going on in the 380 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 6: community that led to this. But the thing is, this 381 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 6: is not the first act of racial violence. It's not 382 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 6: the first act of racial violence in Florida. It's not 383 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 6: the first time somebody has looked into it. There have 384 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 6: been civil rights investigations by the state and federal government 385 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 6: and by private entities that are concerned about these things. 386 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 6: And so it's predictable what the Department of Justice is 387 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 6: going to find out that motivated this particular offender. And 388 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 6: you know, for an American in the twenty first century 389 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 6: to decorate their property with swastikas, And there was a 390 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 6: report that the offender here had a vest with a 391 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 6: Rhodesian army patch on it, and that evidently is a meme, 392 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 6: a common white supremacist symbol. And one would bet that 393 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 6: what the Department of Justice is going to find out 394 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 6: is that this individual was radicalized by white supremacist ideology 395 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 6: that is readily available on a million and one place, 396 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 6: is on the internet, and people who make the argument 397 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 6: that the people who are the rightful heirs of this 398 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 6: country the descendants of white Europeans. At one time the 399 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 6: United States was organized for their benefit, which is true 400 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 6: in many ways, and now it isn't. And you see 401 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 6: what these white supremacists consider interlopers who have positions of 402 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 6: power and responsibility and influence and opportunities for education, and 403 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 6: what about the white people? So I wouldn't be a 404 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 6: bit surprised that the sort of playbook that unfolded in 405 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 6: lots of other cases is going to unfold here. That 406 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 6: this is somebody who was not doing that well in 407 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 6: their life, somebody who was disappointed by how things were 408 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 6: working out for them, and somebody who was not emotionally stable, 409 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 6: and somebody who had a fascination with weapons, and they 410 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 6: found an explanation that it's not because they weren't working 411 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 6: hard enough, it's not because they weren't talented enough. It's 412 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 6: because bad people were standing in the way of what 413 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 6: they were justly entitled to. And if only black people 414 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 6: or Asian people, or Muslim people, or gay people or 415 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 6: whoever could be put in their place, then everything would 416 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 6: be restored to its proper place in the world. 417 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, there have been so many hate crime investigations, 418 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: and hate crimes are up. There's a new study that 419 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: was in USA today shows that in the ten largest cities, 420 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: the number of reported hate crimes rose twenty two percent 421 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two, making last 422 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: year the second consecutive year they hit a record high. 423 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: So it seems to be getting worse instead of getting better, 424 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: no matter how many investigations they have. 425 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 6: Yeah, and the problem is we're a divided country. And 426 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 6: I'm not saying and I would deny that your average 427 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 6: Republican or your average Republican politician likes hate crimes, wants 428 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 6: hate crimes. That's not it. But the rhetoric and the 429 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 6: argumentation about our fellow Americans can sometimes be very negative, 430 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 6: and the extremists, the people who are not emotionally stable, 431 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 6: make too much of this. They take it seriously, the 432 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 6: idea that, for example, the media is the enemy. And 433 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 6: when some people say that it's a metaphor, and when 434 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 6: other people hear that, some of them think that the 435 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 6: problem in the United States really is some group. You know. 436 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 6: It's a combination of this unrestrained rhetoric plus very wide 437 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 6: availability of firearms, even to people who have profound mental illness, 438 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 6: you know. And it's one thing to say that a 439 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 6: law abiding, responsible American should be able to get a 440 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 6: firearm and carry it for self defense or other reasons. 441 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 6: It's another thing to say we should have laws that 442 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,959 Speaker 6: are so lenient that even somebody who is not well 443 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 6: should be allowed to have a semi automatic rifle that 444 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 6: is a very very powerful weapon. 445 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 4: You know. 446 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 6: The combination of these things, I think is why we're 447 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 6: seeing an increase in hate crimes. There's an increase in 448 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 6: heated rhetoric, and there's an increase, thanks to the Supreme Court, 449 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 6: in the availability of firearms. So some of the restrictions 450 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 6: on firearms ownership that would have been possible in years 451 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 6: past are no longer because of the rulings of the 452 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 6: Supreme Court, and so we have more and more people 453 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 6: who feel themselves provoked, and they have more and more 454 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 6: ability to do damage. It is a remarkable situation that 455 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 6: we find ourselves in a reversal of fortune after Obama, 456 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 6: when it seemed like mabe racial tensions in this country 457 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 6: were diminishing, and that proved to be an illusion. 458 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for being on the show, Jack, That's Professor Gabriel 459 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: Chin of the UC Davis Law School, and that's it 460 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you 461 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg 462 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 463 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, Slash Law, 464 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 465 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 466 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg. 467 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 4: M mhm.