Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is
Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and this is part
Speaker 1: two of our series on the Minotaur that we recorded
Speaker 1: in October of this one originally published on the of
Speaker 1: that month. We hope you enjoy Welcome to Stuff to
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome
Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert
Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back going into
Speaker 1: the Labyrinth again. This is going to be the second
Speaker 1: part of our series on the Minotaur for this October.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited because, in addition to talking more about
Speaker 1: the maze and the Monster, today we're gonna be interviewing
Speaker 1: a professor who specializes in the history of my knowing Crete.
Speaker 1: That's right. We're delighted to have Nicoletta Mamiliano, Professor of
Speaker 1: Agan Studies at the University of Bristol, on the show. Uh.
Speaker 1: She's the author of the new book In Search of
Speaker 1: the Labyrinth, The Cultural Legacy of Minoan Crete, which is
Speaker 1: available now in paperback, hardback and as an e book.
Speaker 1: And it's a beautiful book, just loaded with with wonderful
Speaker 1: illustrations and photographs of you know, of the various motifs
Speaker 1: that she discusses in the book. All right, so before
Speaker 1: we jump into our conversation, we should probably do a
Speaker 1: quick overview of Minoan Creed, just to give you a
Speaker 1: little bit of background. Yeah, you know, in our previous
Speaker 1: episode on the minitar we touched a little bit on
Speaker 1: the fact that these are Greek myths concerning the Minoan
Speaker 1: civilization on the isle of Crete. Um, but yeah, let's
Speaker 1: get a let's just lay a little groundwork for the
Speaker 1: interview to follow. So Crete is an island in the
Speaker 1: eastern Mediterranean, the fifth largest in fact, it's part of
Speaker 1: what is now the nation of Greece. It's long, it's narrow,
Speaker 1: it's a largely mountainous Today it's a melting pot of European,
Speaker 1: Asian and African cultures and it's well positioned to bridge
Speaker 1: those cultures now. Stone tools on Creed have been dated
Speaker 1: back a hundred thirty thousand years, but true human settlements
Speaker 1: weren't found here until uh it seems like a b c.
Speaker 1: But it was home to what is sometimes referred to
Speaker 1: as the first advanced European civilization. It was established by
Speaker 1: three thousand b c E and by two thousand b
Speaker 1: C they were building palaces and exhibited a rich culture.
Speaker 1: They thrived till at least fourteen fifty b C, when
Speaker 1: they ended up entering into a period of decline. Okay,
Speaker 1: So in the Greek myth of Theseus and the Minotaur,
Speaker 1: we are getting a sort of exo mythology, a depiction
Speaker 1: of a past, once flourishing culture, but depicted from the
Speaker 1: outside by a different culture, and in a somewhat pejorative way,
Speaker 1: at least in in that particular story, right that the
Speaker 1: idea that there's a monster there and that the Greek
Speaker 1: city states like Athens would have to pay tribute to
Speaker 1: the monster in the palace on in my and Crete,
Speaker 1: Yeah and U. And one of the big things we
Speaker 1: have to keep in mind is that, you know, we
Speaker 1: we're dealing with one ancient people's interpretations of another ancient people. Um.
Speaker 1: So we while we refer to this Bronze Age civilization
Speaker 1: today as Minoan Crete, the name itself here is referring
Speaker 1: to King Minos in Greek traditions. We simply don't know
Speaker 1: what the pre Hellenistic inhabitants of this island called themselves.
Speaker 1: Some scholars, according to Mamiliano, believe that the second millennium
Speaker 1: BC Egyptians knew them as the people of Kef. Two.
Speaker 1: The Minoan distinction stems from the early twentieth century. Uh.
Speaker 1: This was it was dubbed by Sir Arthur Evans, the
Speaker 1: famous excavator of Nosis, the the the the major city
Speaker 1: there on what is what is now crete. Alright, So
Speaker 1: Arthur Evans, working on excavating this ancient structure at Canossus
Speaker 1: uh Is is Knowingly he's not suggesting that like the
Speaker 1: mythical king Mino was actually the king who lived in
Speaker 1: this palace, but saying, well, that is the terminology that
Speaker 1: we already have applied to it in a mythological context,
Speaker 1: so we might as well just use it to apply
Speaker 1: to the archaeological remains of this actual civilization, right Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think realizing that sort of it adds the
Speaker 1: mystery of it all right, you know, and into the
Speaker 1: wonder again of of not just an ancient civilization, but
Speaker 1: one ancient civilization's interpretation of that which came before. Thinking
Speaker 1: about ancient Greek myths pertaining to the civilization of my
Speaker 1: knowing Crete uh brings up a subject that we've talked
Speaker 1: about on the show before. But it's the modern tendency
Speaker 1: to kind of compress all of ancient history together and
Speaker 1: not realize how much time actually elapsed within what we
Speaker 1: call ancient history. Like, for example, if you were Julius
Speaker 1: Caesar living in the you know, the first century BC
Speaker 1: of the Roman Republic, the ancient parts of ancient Egypt
Speaker 1: were more ancient to him than ancient Rome is to
Speaker 1: us now, like that much time had gone by, and
Speaker 1: so there were huge gaps of history in the ancient
Speaker 1: world even, I mean there were there were that the
Speaker 1: ancient Greeks also could look back on mysterious, vanished ancient
Speaker 1: civilizations and not know anymore about them necessarily than we
Speaker 1: know about a lot of ancient law civilizations today. That's right.
Speaker 1: And so in some respects of me personally, when I'm
Speaker 1: reading about all this and thinking about all this, like
Speaker 1: you know, it's like a game of telephone across the ages,
Speaker 1: with different cultures interpreting different cultures. Uh. And and I
Speaker 1: think stuff like the particularly the myth of the Minotaur,
Speaker 1: is a perfect example of this, as it be you know,
Speaker 1: begins as something to some extent rooted in this part
Speaker 1: of the world and and and isolated around at least
Speaker 1: thoughts about crete, and then it becomes this this Greek thing,
Speaker 1: and then it every time it is handled, every time
Speaker 1: it is retold, it becomes, uh, you know, it takes
Speaker 1: on particles of new cultures and new concerns and new people. Totally.
Speaker 1: Before we jump right into the interview here, just want
Speaker 1: to throw in a couple of notes. First of all,
Speaker 1: at around the fourteen minute mark, you're gonna hear a
Speaker 1: couple of outlook pings. Uh. That's just part of doing
Speaker 1: a remote recordings these days. But don't worry. It's it's us,
Speaker 1: not you, and will only be a couple of them.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna keep going throughout the interview. Also, I
Speaker 1: want to point out that our guests at around twenty
Speaker 1: five minutes then is going to mention mason's marks, And
Speaker 1: just to give you a little background, these are marks
Speaker 1: that were found on masonry that are sort of a
Speaker 1: signature of the individuals that created the masonry work. Good
Speaker 1: dad that note, because I did not know what mason's
Speaker 1: marks were until until we look that up. Well, on
Speaker 1: that note, let's go ahead and jump into our interview
Speaker 1: with Professor Nicoletta Mamiliano. Let's start with your book, In
Speaker 1: Search of the Labyrinth, the Cultural Legacy of the Noan Crete.
Speaker 1: Where did the I the for the book come from
Speaker 1: and what did you set out to accomplish with it? Well,
Speaker 1: I have always been fascinated by the history of research
Speaker 1: in anyone given subject. That is, I've always been fascinated
Speaker 1: by the complex relationship between past and present. I've always
Speaker 1: been interested in how a particular discipline has developed over
Speaker 1: the centuries. That is, how theories, methods, research questions can
Speaker 1: change from one generation to another. And of course the
Speaker 1: way in which scholarly research and agendas developed is related
Speaker 1: to our present, is related to what happens in the present,
Speaker 1: and for me, the minn past and the min non
Speaker 1: cultural legacy. It's not just what happened in the second
Speaker 1: and third millennium BC, that is, the traditional chronology given
Speaker 1: to minor and civilization. And also the minor and legacy
Speaker 1: is not just, as I said, what happened in the
Speaker 1: second and third millennium BC, and what possible material or icono, graphic, linguistic,
Speaker 1: or even spiritual legacy may have been transmitted to us
Speaker 1: via Mycenian Greece and then later via Classical Greece. For me,
Speaker 1: what we now call minorn creed is the product of interpretations, reconstructions,
Speaker 1: and complex entanglements between objects and ideas about them, and
Speaker 1: these ideas are influenced by the present. I also think
Speaker 1: that is in it It's very important for scholars to
Speaker 1: try and understand how their own discipline, how their own
Speaker 1: subject is perceived beyond academia. And I think artistic and
Speaker 1: literary imaginations of mine own crete are good to think with.
Speaker 1: They may stimulate new ways of looking at ancient objects.
Speaker 1: Um new imaginations can make me, as a scholar, appreciate
Speaker 1: what is significant or not about my discipline for the
Speaker 1: general public. And after all, it is the general public
Speaker 1: the taxpayer, who funds my research, and I think I
Speaker 1: have the duty to understand what fascinates would interest the
Speaker 1: general public, not just me as a scholar. Now, in
Speaker 1: broad strokes, what does the treatment of the known civilization
Speaker 1: in Greek mythology reveal about Minoan creeds place in ancient
Speaker 1: Greek culture? Well, in ancient Greek culture, in Greek mythology,
Speaker 1: what we now called minor and crete appears as a
Speaker 1: really strange and contradictory place. Crete in Greek mythology is
Speaker 1: a land where immortal Zeus, who was also the father
Speaker 1: of King Minus, to where Zeus was nurtured, but also
Speaker 1: where he died and where he was buried minor and
Speaker 1: Crete was also a land ruled by loggiving king Minus,
Speaker 1: who was a kind of Cretan Moses. And King Minus
Speaker 1: conversed with and was wisely guided by his father Zeus.
Speaker 1: But Crete was also a land rife with extreme sexual desires,
Speaker 1: with adulter bestiality, mostly involving women and bulls, pederasty, human sacrifice, magic, murder,
Speaker 1: and betrayal. So I would say the treatment of my
Speaker 1: non civilizations in Greek mythology reveals a rather ambivalent aptitude
Speaker 1: by the Greeks towards this island and her past. This
Speaker 1: reminds me of some parallels with, say, the Biblical view
Speaker 1: of the Antediluvian time, the time before the flood in
Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis, which I think is simultaneously thought
Speaker 1: of as a time of greatness but also a time
Speaker 1: of sort of chaos and immorality. Uh, do you see
Speaker 1: any parallels there? Or am I running off the tracks here? Well?
Speaker 1: Why not? I think in a sense, it's it's when
Speaker 1: people are trying to make sense of a very distant
Speaker 1: past of which they have very very um vague understanding
Speaker 1: and memories, they change it, something gets lost in translation.
Speaker 1: In a sense, um, people are trying to they know
Speaker 1: that there was something that happened in a very very
Speaker 1: distant past, but they've lost the full understanding of it,
Speaker 1: and so they try to explain it, sometimes in ways
Speaker 1: that tell you more about their present than actually the past.
Speaker 1: All right, on that note, we're going to take a
Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back with Nicoletta Momiliano
Speaker 1: and we're back. In your book, you discuss how how
Speaker 1: even the ancient Greeks used fragments of Minoan material culture
Speaker 1: as a catalyst for further creativity. Could you give us
Speaker 1: an example and explain what that means? Yeah, Um, I
Speaker 1: can give you a very very precise example, which is
Speaker 1: provided by some Greek pottery, pottery of later periods that
Speaker 1: was found at nossauce Um, pottery that dates to the
Speaker 1: early to the Greek Early Iron Age, that is to
Speaker 1: the late ninth and eight centuries BC. There is one
Speaker 1: pot in particular, a lead that was found in a
Speaker 1: Minorn tomb, which in my own tomb that had been
Speaker 1: cleared and reused in the Early Iron Age and the
Speaker 1: Early Iron Age pot is decorated with an octopus motif.
Speaker 1: And this motif is actually relatively rare in the Early
Speaker 1: Iron Age, but of course it's one of the motives
Speaker 1: that was quite common in my non crete and on
Speaker 1: this lead. The way which the octopus is depicted, the
Speaker 1: position of the octopus head above the tentacles, the number
Speaker 1: of tentacles, which is eight, suggests that it's really derived
Speaker 1: from my non pottery of the so called marine style,
Speaker 1: and not from later examples, for example Mycenean period, where
Speaker 1: the position of the head is inverted and sometimes the
Speaker 1: number of the tentacles is reduced. So the decoration in
Speaker 1: this spot is inspired by my non models, but it's
Speaker 1: also something new because it's created in a new style,
Speaker 1: in the style of the Early Iron Age. And there
Speaker 1: are also, i think other aspects of my non material
Speaker 1: culture that acted as catalyst for further creativity, for example,
Speaker 1: the large ruins of the Palace of Nos Sauce, and
Speaker 1: perhaps even some of the frescos that remained visible um
Speaker 1: for a few generations, or even centuries after the palace
Speaker 1: was abandoned. The ruins were certainly quite visible even in
Speaker 1: later centuries that we know for sure. But who created
Speaker 1: these buildings, what these buildings represented were no longer part
Speaker 1: of leaving memory. People had forgotten all that, and yet
Speaker 1: people felt the need to provide some explanations of what
Speaker 1: these ruins represented, and so later Greeks created these wonderful,
Speaker 1: fantastic stories of monsters and labyrinthes, of women having sex
Speaker 1: with bulls, powerful kings that were half divine and half human.
Speaker 1: It's actually it's also related to what Joe was asking earlier.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, this is this is very interesting because
Speaker 1: I think often when we think about ideological myths, the
Speaker 1: myths that are supposed to explain the origin of something,
Speaker 1: the most common thing people think of are explaining natural phenomena,
Speaker 1: you know, myths to explain where the why the mountains
Speaker 1: or this way or where the lightning comes from. But
Speaker 1: there are also ideological myths to explain cultural artifacts of
Speaker 1: human civilization, of course, and there are I think there
Speaker 1: are explanations that relate to our physical world. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not whether it's natural phenomena or buildings. But this
Speaker 1: is the point I'm making is presided that it's that
Speaker 1: these things are no longer part of living memory, and
Speaker 1: that's one when people are trying to create stories about them,
Speaker 1: sometimes they tell us more about the present than really
Speaker 1: what happened in the past. It's almost as if they
Speaker 1: were natural phenomena. It's almost as if they are a
Speaker 1: mountain range or something like that. Yes, well, I think
Speaker 1: people probably in the case of ruins of buildings, they
Speaker 1: would recognize what they were. But sometimes they were so
Speaker 1: astounded by kinds of buildings that people were no longer
Speaker 1: able to produce in later centuries, that sometimes they attributed
Speaker 1: their constructions to gods. For example, moving from my non
Speaker 1: treat to other areas. But the Walls of Troy that
Speaker 1: the Walls of Troy's, of course were built in the
Speaker 1: middle of the early middle second millennium BC. But the
Speaker 1: way in which they are described in the Homeric poems
Speaker 1: eight seventh century b C, as if if they had
Speaker 1: been built by gods. But of course they were not
Speaker 1: built by gods. That were built by human people like
Speaker 1: you and me. But people had forgotten this, and they
Speaker 1: were so astounding that they thought explain them as being
Speaker 1: built by supernatural beings, and we've seen something similar in
Speaker 1: recent centuries as well. Correct. Yes, to some extent um.
Speaker 1: Since the rediscovery of my non creed in the early
Speaker 1: twentieth century, thanks to the excavations of Saraharta Evans at
Speaker 1: Transource and by other archeologists and other sides, writer and
Speaker 1: artists have been inspired by the material culture of my
Speaker 1: non creed to create something new, from poems to ballet
Speaker 1: or paintings, and the French writer Paul Moron, in an
Speaker 1: article he wrote in the nineteen sixties, used the term
Speaker 1: crito mania to describe this phenomenon. Mania is of course
Speaker 1: a term similar to earlier terms and used to describe
Speaker 1: similar phenomena such as Egyptomania, Great Romania, Helenomania. So is
Speaker 1: ancient creto mania comparable to our modern fascination and retellings
Speaker 1: of various historical settings and motifs like I'm instantly thinking
Speaker 1: of modern Roman sagas or various Viking TV shows and
Speaker 1: the like. Yes, again, to some extent, crepto mania is
Speaker 1: above all borrowing of my non elements to create something
Speaker 1: completely new um and sometimes though my non elements are
Speaker 1: also used to give a more ancient, more archaic, and
Speaker 1: more Bronze Age look to later Greek dramas uh that
Speaker 1: are set in what we now call the Bronze Age
Speaker 1: or heroic past of Greece. But kreto Mania is above
Speaker 1: all the use of minorana elements to create something in
Speaker 1: new contemporary. Now, in discussing the minute are, we of
Speaker 1: course are discussing balls. How did balls factor into Minoan
Speaker 1: civilization and how is this reflected in Greek myth? Well,
Speaker 1: bulls appear very very frequently in minor representations, especially from
Speaker 1: the mid to late second millennium BC. We find representations
Speaker 1: of bulls in frescos pottery, terracotta figurines, in tiny, tiny
Speaker 1: seal stones um and particularly fascinating are the representations of
Speaker 1: bull leaping, that is, of human figures producing acrobatic somersaults
Speaker 1: over the back of charging bulls. But interestingly and contrastingly,
Speaker 1: depiction of minotor images, that is, of ceatures that are
Speaker 1: half bull and half human are actually very very rare
Speaker 1: and relatively late in my norn creat And also we
Speaker 1: may wonder whether some of these representation may simply be
Speaker 1: very stylized representations of bullyping, because they appear on tiny
Speaker 1: seal stones or seal impressions. Um and animals human hybrids
Speaker 1: do exist in my Norn creat but it's also interesting
Speaker 1: to see that there is no prevalence of bulls necessarily
Speaker 1: because some of these human hybrid representations, including some of
Speaker 1: the early ones, tend to involve other animals um, birds
Speaker 1: or gods for example. So how exactly one god from
Speaker 1: my non rules to later Greek representations of the mint
Speaker 1: or as a hybrid figure is not entirely clear, and
Speaker 1: I think this process must have been quite complex, and
Speaker 1: exactly what happened I don't know. Is it possible to
Speaker 1: infer anything about the tone of how these images are
Speaker 1: presented in actual Minoring artwork? So the the depictions of
Speaker 1: bull leaping or of animal human hybrids, including with bullparts
Speaker 1: or as you mentioned, with birds or goats, does this
Speaker 1: convey a sense of um, of fearfulness or terror the
Speaker 1: way the minotaur would in Greek myth or? Is the
Speaker 1: tone different? Does that make any sense? Well, as I said,
Speaker 1: it's um, I don't. I think we have to decouple
Speaker 1: bull representations in Minor and Creete and later representations, because really,
Speaker 1: how we got from one to the other it's really complicated,
Speaker 1: and I honestly don't know how this hand and whether
Speaker 1: there is a necessarily a direct link. Some people have
Speaker 1: even suggested that the minor tours in later Greece are
Speaker 1: not necessarily derived from my norn Creed, but are derived
Speaker 1: from other Near Eastern civilizations, later civilizations. But the way
Speaker 1: in which bulls are presented in my norn Creed, do
Speaker 1: they show term I don't, well, certainly not all of them. Um.
Speaker 1: The contrary, some people UM describe the the acrobatics over
Speaker 1: bulls like almost like a kind of dance over over bulls.
Speaker 1: It's a like a very interesting showing kind of relations
Speaker 1: ship between human and animals. I wouldn't say they represent
Speaker 1: anything necessarily terror. I mean, there are some representations where
Speaker 1: you said, see human beings being gored by bulls, but
Speaker 1: many other representations is is the human being who successfully
Speaker 1: produces these wonderful somersaults over the boom? So I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say it's necessarily terror. And the other hybrid figures, and
Speaker 1: they are so small, um, they are not part of
Speaker 1: large compositions, it would be difficult to say whether they
Speaker 1: have any fearful terror elements in them. I would say probably.
Speaker 1: The answer to that is again my hunch is probably no.
Speaker 1: It simply shows an interesting fascination in the animal world.
Speaker 1: Armed now, of course, the myths involved the greatness involved
Speaker 1: not only the minute are but the labyrinth. Is there
Speaker 1: currently any archaeological evidence to support the existence of the
Speaker 1: Manoan labyrinth of Greek myth or some actual structure or
Speaker 1: complex that would have inspired it. I mean yes and
Speaker 1: no in the sense that there is no building in
Speaker 1: my non treat that can be described as a complicated maze,
Speaker 1: that is a complicated system of parts or edges, designed
Speaker 1: as a puzzle through which one has to find the way. No,
Speaker 1: but the ruins of my non palaces, especially the ruins
Speaker 1: of cloissance Um, can have for us a kind of
Speaker 1: labyry in fine appearance. And also Sarah Evans, the excavator
Speaker 1: of Cloissance, presented the large stature that he excavated as
Speaker 1: the real Cretan labyrinth because he connected the word labyrinth
Speaker 1: with labraries, which is a term used in later Greek
Speaker 1: text to indicate the double ax. And he also suggested
Speaker 1: that labyrinth meant the house of the double ax, because
Speaker 1: he noted that many Mason's marks found at Cnaissance in
Speaker 1: very prominent locations. Had the shape of this object had
Speaker 1: the shape of a double axe. But I should like
Speaker 1: to remark that the connection between the word labyrinth and
Speaker 1: labraries appears to be much more tenuous than Evans suggested,
Speaker 1: because there are linguistic difficulties in relating the these two
Speaker 1: words that have been pointed out by several philologists, by
Speaker 1: several linguists. And also I'd like to remark that yes,
Speaker 1: Mason's marks in the shape of a double axe do
Speaker 1: appear very frequently and perhaps most frequently at Cnossource than
Speaker 1: are the minor on sides, but they're not exclusive to
Speaker 1: Cronos Source. You can find in them also at other
Speaker 1: minor on sides. And also that there are other signs
Speaker 1: are the masons marks that are also very common at Cnossauce.
Speaker 1: Now in addition to the miniatur and the labyrinthya. Of course,
Speaker 1: the other key part of these stories is King Minos
Speaker 1: himself behind the you know, the fantastic and the monstrous
Speaker 1: aspects of the particular character that we find in Greek mythology.
Speaker 1: Is there a true historic element to this king? Who knows? Perhaps? Possibly?
Speaker 1: But the issue who really ruled in my non Creed
Speaker 1: is very much debated, and perhaps we should bear in
Speaker 1: mind that when we talk of my non Creed, we
Speaker 1: speak of about two millennia, and it is very likely
Speaker 1: that political systems, these social organizations changed in this two millennia.
Speaker 1: Some scholars think that perhaps some form of royalty and
Speaker 1: perhaps even of Chrossian supremacy may have existed in Crete,
Speaker 1: especially in what archeologists called the Neoplacial period, that is,
Speaker 1: from about seventeen hundred to fourteen fifty BC. But there
Speaker 1: are also many scholars who prefer to see my non
Speaker 1: creed as ruled by women or by some kind of
Speaker 1: gender balanced elite class, almost like council or a corporation
Speaker 1: of men and women together, rather than a single ruler.
Speaker 1: But it's possible that for some part of the history
Speaker 1: of my noncreat for some periods, there may have been
Speaker 1: a supreme ruler whose memory might have inspired later stories
Speaker 1: about King Mines. All right, on that note, we're going
Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but we'll be right back
Speaker 1: with Nicoletta Momiliano, and we're back now. As for the Minotar,
Speaker 1: the mythic minotar itself, why do you think the minetar
Speaker 1: resonates so strongly in Western traditions. Do you think it
Speaker 1: reveals something about the broader human condition, or rather, are
Speaker 1: we inflating and building on something that would have had
Speaker 1: you know, far different, more specific associations for ancient people's well,
Speaker 1: I think that, at least for some ancient people, for
Speaker 1: some Greeks, the story of the Minotour had more specific
Speaker 1: association um, because in a sense, the Greek myths related
Speaker 1: to King Minus, the Minotour and song could be seen
Speaker 1: almost like a morality tale, an example of a punishment
Speaker 1: inflicted by the gods because King Minus didn't keep one
Speaker 1: of his promises to the gods. Um. But of course,
Speaker 1: the story of the Minotour, like many many other Greek myths,
Speaker 1: m Greek narratives, and not just Greek narratives, but also
Speaker 1: Near Eastern narratives ken and has been endlessly re imagined
Speaker 1: to address different aspects of human condition at different times
Speaker 1: and in different periods. And there are some fascinating examples
Speaker 1: of really different imaginations and different symbolies of the encounter,
Speaker 1: for example, between theseus and the minor term. And you
Speaker 1: can find many examples in literature or in the visual
Speaker 1: and performing arts from the last novel by andre A.
Speaker 1: Gid says, just the encounter is more almost like an
Speaker 1: encounter between the individual and his own sexuality. Um. There
Speaker 1: are other encounters in uh works by Picasso, in works
Speaker 1: by the Greek, famous Greek author Nikos Katzanzakis, in which
Speaker 1: the encounter between theseus and the minor tour is almost
Speaker 1: like an encounter between and all the civilization and non
Speaker 1: civilization and the Greek civilization, UM and so on. So
Speaker 1: the symbolism changes all the time, and there are so
Speaker 1: many different examples. So of course it is because it
Speaker 1: relates to um different aspects of the human condition. I said,
Speaker 1: whether it's seen as a symbolism of one's sexuality, to
Speaker 1: the animal elements in human beings, almost like a struggle
Speaker 1: between different impulses. So it can be reimagined and invented
Speaker 1: with different meanings all the time. Now, in your book
Speaker 1: you you you mentioned various examples of artistic performance or
Speaker 1: literary works that are you know, based in some part
Speaker 1: on the minitar myth or Mino and creed. Do you
Speaker 1: do you have a personal favorite? Now, this is really
Speaker 1: the most difficult quest for me to answer, because you
Speaker 1: really put me on the spot here those I have
Speaker 1: so many favorites, it's it's very difficult for me to
Speaker 1: choose because also it's so many different materials, as he said,
Speaker 1: for performance, literary works and songs. In the visual arts,
Speaker 1: probably my favorite it work occupied by the material culture
Speaker 1: of my non cret is Paul klass sketch titled the
Speaker 1: Snake God This and Her Enemy that he created in
Speaker 1: nine But I also love um one of the sketches
Speaker 1: made by Mark Chagall. One is an irreverent take on
Speaker 1: famous my non fresco of bull leaping, and I also
Speaker 1: sound like some of the paintings by a local Cretan painter,
Speaker 1: the one who actually produced the cover. The illustration for
Speaker 1: the cover of my book Roussettos Panagiatakis has um very
Speaker 1: very sexy mino tour um and uh, and I like
Speaker 1: it very much. It reminds me of salvatorro Da L's
Speaker 1: surrealistic paintings. And in the performing arts, I have a
Speaker 1: very very soft spot for the gigantic snake goddess that
Speaker 1: appears in the opera Mino Tour by the British composer.
Speaker 1: A contemporary British composer Sir Harrison birth Whistle, and I
Speaker 1: also have a soft spot for the ballet La Premi
Speaker 1: didem Phone, which was first performed in nineteen twelve in
Speaker 1: Paris and was choreographed by the famous dancer Baslav Nijinsky
Speaker 1: and the costumes who are created by Leon Box and
Speaker 1: the costumes have some my non elements. And among literary works,
Speaker 1: I like a poem written by Cecile Lewis entitled Statuette
Speaker 1: Late mine on which was written around ninety seven and
Speaker 1: again is also inspired by the famous snake Goddess from Cnossus.
Speaker 1: And I love the story the short story The Ivory
Speaker 1: Acrobat by the American writer Don Delillon, and the ivoryan
Speaker 1: Krobat is named after another the famous fine discovery from Cnossauce,
Speaker 1: and I also like Don Delillo's novel The Names, which
Speaker 1: has plenty of references to Minor and Create so recently
Speaker 1: on the show. In considering a couple of different Greek
Speaker 1: myths that feature a monster, one's the myth of Perseus
Speaker 1: and Medusa and the other is Theseus and the Minotaur.
Speaker 1: In reading both of them, I find, as a modern reader,
Speaker 1: I feel a lot of sympathy for the monster, for
Speaker 1: for Medusa and for the minutea, it seems, uh, it
Speaker 1: seems very unfair to them what happens to them, almost
Speaker 1: like they're not even really the aggressor of the story.
Speaker 1: That the hero is kind of the aggressor of the story.
Speaker 1: And both the case of Perseus and and theseus. So
Speaker 1: it is that way of reading the story completely alien
Speaker 1: to the context in which they originated. Is that just
Speaker 1: our modern way of interpreting a story, where you know,
Speaker 1: the people who originally told and heard these stories probably
Speaker 1: would not have felt such sympathies. Or is that element
Speaker 1: of kind of pity and unfairness there even in the
Speaker 1: ancient understanding of these myths. I honestly don't know, because uh,
Speaker 1: certainly some a lot of modern imaginations of the myth
Speaker 1: of Thesis and the Minotor that I've come across when
Speaker 1: working on my book sympathize with the minotor completely. Um.
Speaker 1: For example, in g the Minotor is not the monster
Speaker 1: at all, it's a beautiful young man. Again, in Sir
Speaker 1: Harrison Bird Whistles Opera the Minotor, the sympathy is with
Speaker 1: the Minutor, not with the other people at all. Um
Speaker 1: to say, I mean to say that nobody in antiquity
Speaker 1: ever felt something like this would be I think unfair
Speaker 1: and unjust. There might have been some people in antiquity
Speaker 1: who may have felt some sympathy for the monsters. Well,
Speaker 1: I can't exclude this a priority. I would have probably
Speaker 1: thought that the majority of the people didn't. But why not?
Speaker 1: I mean it's I mean, it's like saying that everybody,
Speaker 1: every modern person now feels sympathy with the minotor. Perhaps
Speaker 1: many people do nowadays, but not everybody might do. So
Speaker 1: why should we treat the people who lived in antiquity
Speaker 1: as a complete single block. Different people may have reacted
Speaker 1: in different ways to these stories. Somebody a bit original
Speaker 1: might have felt sympathy for the minotor. Why not? And
Speaker 1: some people even thought that the minotor was not an
Speaker 1: animal at all. Even in antiquities. There are lots of
Speaker 1: different explanations and different views. So I would not want
Speaker 1: to say a priori that nobody in antiquity felt sympathy
Speaker 1: with the minotor, although it strikes me as perhaps a
Speaker 1: kind of sensibility and uh that it's a bit more modern.
Speaker 1: But ancients could be very modern too in their feeling,
Speaker 1: in their feelings in there, in the way in which
Speaker 1: they present things that are not necessarily black and white.
Speaker 1: But though this stray is quite a lot from my
Speaker 1: no and crete, this has more to do with the
Speaker 1: later periods with Greek mythology. So it's it's Halloween season
Speaker 1: for many of our listeners. UM, So we're wondering if
Speaker 1: you could recommend any particular suitable minoteur related works for
Speaker 1: the Halloween season. Um. Like you mentioned so many different things.
Speaker 1: For instance, I noticed that you mentioned a minute our
Speaker 1: book by Russian author Victor Pelvin. I read it it
Speaker 1: really enjoyed his novel The Sacred Book of the Werewolf
Speaker 1: many years ago, and I just hadn't been keeping I
Speaker 1: hadn't really kept up with what other other things he
Speaker 1: had written. But you you point out that that he
Speaker 1: wrote a minotar based work as well. Yes. Well, to
Speaker 1: be perfectly honest, I can't think of, um, something that
Speaker 1: is particularly spooky, that is in the spirit suitable to Halloween. UM.
Speaker 1: But many reimaginations of the myth of the minoritor can
Speaker 1: be a bit unnerving and disturbing. UM. And indeed, I
Speaker 1: would say the book by Victor Pelevin that you have
Speaker 1: just referred to, which was published in English with the
Speaker 1: title The Helmet of Horrors. I think it's a bit
Speaker 1: of an unnerving story because it reimagines the Labyrinth of
Speaker 1: Minus as very modern internet chat room. That sounds good.
Speaker 1: This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for talking
Speaker 1: to us today. Thank you so much. All right, well,
Speaker 1: there you have it. Thanks once again so much to
Speaker 1: Professor Nicoletto Mamiliano again, author of In Search of the Labyrinth,
Speaker 1: the Cultural Legacy of Minoan Creed. It's out now, you
Speaker 1: can find it. It it you know, it just came out.
Speaker 1: It's available in paperback, hard back, and as an e book.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out
Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, such as
Speaker 1: our our previous episode of the Minotaur on the Minotaur,
Speaker 1: or if you want to look out for our next
Speaker 1: episode that is gonna deal a little bit more with
Speaker 1: the Minotaur. We can't stop, Yeah, we can't start. We're
Speaker 1: lost in the Labyrinth. Um. If you want to check
Speaker 1: any of that out, you can find our podcast wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, wherever that happens to be. We
Speaker 1: just ask that you rate, review, and subscribe. But you
Speaker 1: can find us at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.
Speaker 1: That'll shoot you over to the I heart page for
Speaker 1: our podcast, and if you go there, I think there's
Speaker 1: a link for a store you can check that out.
Speaker 1: There's some t shirts, some logos, some stickers, et cetera,
Speaker 1: including a few that are mythological in nature. Huge thanks
Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest
Speaker 1: the topic for the future, just to say hello, you
Speaker 1: can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow your
Speaker 1: Mind Mind dot Com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
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