1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and this is part 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: two of our series on the Minotaur that we recorded 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: in October of this one originally published on the of 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: that month. We hope you enjoy Welcome to Stuff to 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back going into 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: the Labyrinth again. This is going to be the second 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: part of our series on the Minotaur for this October. 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: I'm so excited because, in addition to talking more about 12 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: the maze and the Monster, today we're gonna be interviewing 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: a professor who specializes in the history of my knowing Crete. 14 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: That's right. We're delighted to have Nicoletta Mamiliano, Professor of 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: Agan Studies at the University of Bristol, on the show. Uh. 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: She's the author of the new book In Search of 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: the Labyrinth, The Cultural Legacy of Minoan Crete, which is 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: available now in paperback, hardback and as an e book. 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: And it's a beautiful book, just loaded with with wonderful 20 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: illustrations and photographs of you know, of the various motifs 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 1: that she discusses in the book. All right, so before 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: we jump into our conversation, we should probably do a 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: quick overview of Minoan Creed, just to give you a 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: little bit of background. Yeah, you know, in our previous 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: episode on the minitar we touched a little bit on 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: the fact that these are Greek myths concerning the Minoan 27 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: civilization on the isle of Crete. Um, but yeah, let's 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: get a let's just lay a little groundwork for the 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: interview to follow. So Crete is an island in the 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: eastern Mediterranean, the fifth largest in fact, it's part of 31 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: what is now the nation of Greece. It's long, it's narrow, 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: it's a largely mountainous Today it's a melting pot of European, 33 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: Asian and African cultures and it's well positioned to bridge 34 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: those cultures now. Stone tools on Creed have been dated 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: back a hundred thirty thousand years, but true human settlements 36 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: weren't found here until uh it seems like a b c. 37 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: But it was home to what is sometimes referred to 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: as the first advanced European civilization. It was established by 39 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: three thousand b c E and by two thousand b 40 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: C they were building palaces and exhibited a rich culture. 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: They thrived till at least fourteen fifty b C, when 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: they ended up entering into a period of decline. Okay, 43 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: So in the Greek myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: we are getting a sort of exo mythology, a depiction 45 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: of a past, once flourishing culture, but depicted from the 46 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: outside by a different culture, and in a somewhat pejorative way, 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: at least in in that particular story, right that the 48 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: idea that there's a monster there and that the Greek 49 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: city states like Athens would have to pay tribute to 50 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: the monster in the palace on in my and Crete, 51 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: Yeah and U. And one of the big things we 52 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: have to keep in mind is that, you know, we 53 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: we're dealing with one ancient people's interpretations of another ancient people. Um. 54 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: So we while we refer to this Bronze Age civilization 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: today as Minoan Crete, the name itself here is referring 56 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,119 Speaker 1: to King Minos in Greek traditions. We simply don't know 57 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: what the pre Hellenistic inhabitants of this island called themselves. 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: Some scholars, according to Mamiliano, believe that the second millennium 59 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: BC Egyptians knew them as the people of Kef. Two. 60 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: The Minoan distinction stems from the early twentieth century. Uh. 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: This was it was dubbed by Sir Arthur Evans, the 62 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: famous excavator of Nosis, the the the the major city 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: there on what is what is now crete. Alright, So 64 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: Arthur Evans, working on excavating this ancient structure at Canossus 65 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: uh Is is Knowingly he's not suggesting that like the 66 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: mythical king Mino was actually the king who lived in 67 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: this palace, but saying, well, that is the terminology that 68 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: we already have applied to it in a mythological context, 69 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: so we might as well just use it to apply 70 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: to the archaeological remains of this actual civilization, right Yeah, 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: And I think realizing that sort of it adds the 72 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: mystery of it all right, you know, and into the 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: wonder again of of not just an ancient civilization, but 74 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: one ancient civilization's interpretation of that which came before. Thinking 75 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: about ancient Greek myths pertaining to the civilization of my 76 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: knowing Crete uh brings up a subject that we've talked 77 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: about on the show before. But it's the modern tendency 78 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: to kind of compress all of ancient history together and 79 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: not realize how much time actually elapsed within what we 80 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: call ancient history. Like, for example, if you were Julius 81 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: Caesar living in the you know, the first century BC 82 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: of the Roman Republic, the ancient parts of ancient Egypt 83 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: were more ancient to him than ancient Rome is to 84 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: us now, like that much time had gone by, and 85 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: so there were huge gaps of history in the ancient 86 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: world even, I mean there were there were that the 87 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: ancient Greeks also could look back on mysterious, vanished ancient 88 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: civilizations and not know anymore about them necessarily than we 89 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: know about a lot of ancient law civilizations today. That's right. 90 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: And so in some respects of me personally, when I'm 91 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: reading about all this and thinking about all this, like 92 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's like a game of telephone across the ages, 93 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: with different cultures interpreting different cultures. Uh. And and I 94 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: think stuff like the particularly the myth of the Minotaur, 95 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: is a perfect example of this, as it be you know, 96 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: begins as something to some extent rooted in this part 97 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: of the world and and and isolated around at least 98 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: thoughts about crete, and then it becomes this this Greek thing, 99 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: and then it every time it is handled, every time 100 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: it is retold, it becomes, uh, you know, it takes 101 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: on particles of new cultures and new concerns and new people. Totally. 102 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: Before we jump right into the interview here, just want 103 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: to throw in a couple of notes. First of all, 104 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: at around the fourteen minute mark, you're gonna hear a 105 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: couple of outlook pings. Uh. That's just part of doing 106 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: a remote recordings these days. But don't worry. It's it's us, 107 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: not you, and will only be a couple of them. 108 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: It's not gonna keep going throughout the interview. Also, I 109 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: want to point out that our guests at around twenty 110 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: five minutes then is going to mention mason's marks, And 111 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: just to give you a little background, these are marks 112 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: that were found on masonry that are sort of a 113 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: signature of the individuals that created the masonry work. Good 114 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: dad that note, because I did not know what mason's 115 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: marks were until until we look that up. Well, on 116 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: that note, let's go ahead and jump into our interview 117 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: with Professor Nicoletta Mamiliano. Let's start with your book, In 118 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: Search of the Labyrinth, the Cultural Legacy of the Noan Crete. 119 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: Where did the I the for the book come from 120 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: and what did you set out to accomplish with it? Well, 121 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: I have always been fascinated by the history of research 122 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: in anyone given subject. That is, I've always been fascinated 123 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: by the complex relationship between past and present. I've always 124 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: been interested in how a particular discipline has developed over 125 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: the centuries. That is, how theories, methods, research questions can 126 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: change from one generation to another. And of course the 127 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: way in which scholarly research and agendas developed is related 128 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: to our present, is related to what happens in the present, 129 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: and for me, the minn past and the min non 130 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: cultural legacy. It's not just what happened in the second 131 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: and third millennium BC, that is, the traditional chronology given 132 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: to minor and civilization. And also the minor and legacy 133 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: is not just, as I said, what happened in the 134 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: second and third millennium BC, and what possible material or icono, graphic, linguistic, 135 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: or even spiritual legacy may have been transmitted to us 136 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: via Mycenian Greece and then later via Classical Greece. For me, 137 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: what we now call minorn creed is the product of interpretations, reconstructions, 138 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: and complex entanglements between objects and ideas about them, and 139 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: these ideas are influenced by the present. I also think 140 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: that is in it It's very important for scholars to 141 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: try and understand how their own discipline, how their own 142 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: subject is perceived beyond academia. And I think artistic and 143 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: literary imaginations of mine own crete are good to think with. 144 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: They may stimulate new ways of looking at ancient objects. 145 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: Um new imaginations can make me, as a scholar, appreciate 146 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: what is significant or not about my discipline for the 147 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: general public. And after all, it is the general public 148 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: the taxpayer, who funds my research, and I think I 149 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: have the duty to understand what fascinates would interest the 150 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: general public, not just me as a scholar. Now, in 151 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: broad strokes, what does the treatment of the known civilization 152 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: in Greek mythology reveal about Minoan creeds place in ancient 153 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: Greek culture? Well, in ancient Greek culture, in Greek mythology, 154 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: what we now called minor and crete appears as a 155 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: really strange and contradictory place. Crete in Greek mythology is 156 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: a land where immortal Zeus, who was also the father 157 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: of King Minus, to where Zeus was nurtured, but also 158 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: where he died and where he was buried minor and 159 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: Crete was also a land ruled by loggiving king Minus, 160 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: who was a kind of Cretan Moses. And King Minus 161 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: conversed with and was wisely guided by his father Zeus. 162 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: But Crete was also a land rife with extreme sexual desires, 163 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: with adulter bestiality, mostly involving women and bulls, pederasty, human sacrifice, magic, murder, 164 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: and betrayal. So I would say the treatment of my 165 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: non civilizations in Greek mythology reveals a rather ambivalent aptitude 166 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: by the Greeks towards this island and her past. This 167 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: reminds me of some parallels with, say, the Biblical view 168 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: of the Antediluvian time, the time before the flood in 169 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis, which I think is simultaneously thought 170 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: of as a time of greatness but also a time 171 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: of sort of chaos and immorality. Uh, do you see 172 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: any parallels there? Or am I running off the tracks here? Well? 173 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: Why not? I think in a sense, it's it's when 174 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: people are trying to make sense of a very distant 175 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:05,479 Speaker 1: past of which they have very very um vague understanding 176 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: and memories, they change it, something gets lost in translation. 177 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: In a sense, um, people are trying to they know 178 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: that there was something that happened in a very very 179 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: distant past, but they've lost the full understanding of it, 180 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: and so they try to explain it, sometimes in ways 181 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: that tell you more about their present than actually the past. 182 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: All right, on that note, we're going to take a 183 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back with Nicoletta Momiliano 184 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: and we're back. In your book, you discuss how how 185 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: even the ancient Greeks used fragments of Minoan material culture 186 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: as a catalyst for further creativity. Could you give us 187 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: an example and explain what that means? Yeah, Um, I 188 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: can give you a very very precise example, which is 189 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: provided by some Greek pottery, pottery of later periods that 190 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: was found at nossauce Um, pottery that dates to the 191 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: early to the Greek Early Iron Age, that is to 192 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: the late ninth and eight centuries BC. There is one 193 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: pot in particular, a lead that was found in a 194 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: Minorn tomb, which in my own tomb that had been 195 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: cleared and reused in the Early Iron Age and the 196 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: Early Iron Age pot is decorated with an octopus motif. 197 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: And this motif is actually relatively rare in the Early 198 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: Iron Age, but of course it's one of the motives 199 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: that was quite common in my non crete and on 200 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: this lead. The way which the octopus is depicted, the 201 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: position of the octopus head above the tentacles, the number 202 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: of tentacles, which is eight, suggests that it's really derived 203 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: from my non pottery of the so called marine style, 204 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: and not from later examples, for example Mycenean period, where 205 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: the position of the head is inverted and sometimes the 206 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: number of the tentacles is reduced. So the decoration in 207 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: this spot is inspired by my non models, but it's 208 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: also something new because it's created in a new style, 209 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: in the style of the Early Iron Age. And there 210 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: are also, i think other aspects of my non material 211 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: culture that acted as catalyst for further creativity, for example, 212 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: the large ruins of the Palace of Nos Sauce, and 213 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: perhaps even some of the frescos that remained visible um 214 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: for a few generations, or even centuries after the palace 215 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: was abandoned. The ruins were certainly quite visible even in 216 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: later centuries that we know for sure. But who created 217 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: these buildings, what these buildings represented were no longer part 218 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: of leaving memory. People had forgotten all that, and yet 219 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: people felt the need to provide some explanations of what 220 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: these ruins represented, and so later Greeks created these wonderful, 221 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: fantastic stories of monsters and labyrinthes, of women having sex 222 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: with bulls, powerful kings that were half divine and half human. 223 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: It's actually it's also related to what Joe was asking earlier. 224 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, this is this is very interesting because 225 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: I think often when we think about ideological myths, the 226 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: myths that are supposed to explain the origin of something, 227 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: the most common thing people think of are explaining natural phenomena, 228 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, myths to explain where the why the mountains 229 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: or this way or where the lightning comes from. But 230 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: there are also ideological myths to explain cultural artifacts of 231 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: human civilization, of course, and there are I think there 232 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: are explanations that relate to our physical world. You know, 233 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: it's not whether it's natural phenomena or buildings. But this 234 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: is the point I'm making is presided that it's that 235 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: these things are no longer part of living memory, and 236 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: that's one when people are trying to create stories about them, 237 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: sometimes they tell us more about the present than really 238 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: what happened in the past. It's almost as if they 239 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: were natural phenomena. It's almost as if they are a 240 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: mountain range or something like that. Yes, well, I think 241 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: people probably in the case of ruins of buildings, they 242 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: would recognize what they were. But sometimes they were so 243 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: astounded by kinds of buildings that people were no longer 244 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: able to produce in later centuries, that sometimes they attributed 245 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: their constructions to gods. For example, moving from my non 246 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: treat to other areas. But the Walls of Troy that 247 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: the Walls of Troy's, of course were built in the 248 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: middle of the early middle second millennium BC. But the 249 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: way in which they are described in the Homeric poems 250 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: eight seventh century b C, as if if they had 251 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: been built by gods. But of course they were not 252 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: built by gods. That were built by human people like 253 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: you and me. But people had forgotten this, and they 254 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: were so astounding that they thought explain them as being 255 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: built by supernatural beings, and we've seen something similar in 256 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: recent centuries as well. Correct. Yes, to some extent um. 257 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: Since the rediscovery of my non creed in the early 258 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: twentieth century, thanks to the excavations of Saraharta Evans at 259 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: Transource and by other archeologists and other sides, writer and 260 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: artists have been inspired by the material culture of my 261 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: non creed to create something new, from poems to ballet 262 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: or paintings, and the French writer Paul Moron, in an 263 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: article he wrote in the nineteen sixties, used the term 264 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: crito mania to describe this phenomenon. Mania is of course 265 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: a term similar to earlier terms and used to describe 266 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: similar phenomena such as Egyptomania, Great Romania, Helenomania. So is 267 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: ancient creto mania comparable to our modern fascination and retellings 268 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: of various historical settings and motifs like I'm instantly thinking 269 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: of modern Roman sagas or various Viking TV shows and 270 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: the like. Yes, again, to some extent, crepto mania is 271 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: above all borrowing of my non elements to create something 272 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: completely new um and sometimes though my non elements are 273 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: also used to give a more ancient, more archaic, and 274 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: more Bronze Age look to later Greek dramas uh that 275 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: are set in what we now call the Bronze Age 276 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: or heroic past of Greece. But kreto Mania is above 277 00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: all the use of minorana elements to create something in 278 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: new contemporary. Now, in discussing the minute are, we of 279 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: course are discussing balls. How did balls factor into Minoan 280 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: civilization and how is this reflected in Greek myth? Well, 281 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: bulls appear very very frequently in minor representations, especially from 282 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: the mid to late second millennium BC. We find representations 283 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: of bulls in frescos pottery, terracotta figurines, in tiny, tiny 284 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: seal stones um and particularly fascinating are the representations of 285 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: bull leaping, that is, of human figures producing acrobatic somersaults 286 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: over the back of charging bulls. But interestingly and contrastingly, 287 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: depiction of minotor images, that is, of ceatures that are 288 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: half bull and half human are actually very very rare 289 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: and relatively late in my norn creat And also we 290 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: may wonder whether some of these representation may simply be 291 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: very stylized representations of bullyping, because they appear on tiny 292 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: seal stones or seal impressions. Um and animals human hybrids 293 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: do exist in my Norn creat but it's also interesting 294 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: to see that there is no prevalence of bulls necessarily 295 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: because some of these human hybrid representations, including some of 296 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: the early ones, tend to involve other animals um, birds 297 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: or gods for example. So how exactly one god from 298 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: my non rules to later Greek representations of the mint 299 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: or as a hybrid figure is not entirely clear, and 300 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: I think this process must have been quite complex, and 301 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: exactly what happened I don't know. Is it possible to 302 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: infer anything about the tone of how these images are 303 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: presented in actual Minoring artwork? So the the depictions of 304 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: bull leaping or of animal human hybrids, including with bullparts 305 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: or as you mentioned, with birds or goats, does this 306 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: convey a sense of um, of fearfulness or terror the 307 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 1: way the minotaur would in Greek myth or? Is the 308 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: tone different? Does that make any sense? Well, as I said, 309 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: it's um, I don't. I think we have to decouple 310 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: bull representations in Minor and Creete and later representations, because really, 311 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: how we got from one to the other it's really complicated, 312 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: and I honestly don't know how this hand and whether 313 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: there is a necessarily a direct link. Some people have 314 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: even suggested that the minor tours in later Greece are 315 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: not necessarily derived from my norn Creed, but are derived 316 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: from other Near Eastern civilizations, later civilizations. But the way 317 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: in which bulls are presented in my norn Creed, do 318 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: they show term I don't, well, certainly not all of them. Um. 319 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: The contrary, some people UM describe the the acrobatics over 320 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: bulls like almost like a kind of dance over over bulls. 321 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: It's a like a very interesting showing kind of relations 322 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: ship between human and animals. I wouldn't say they represent 323 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: anything necessarily terror. I mean, there are some representations where 324 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: you said, see human beings being gored by bulls, but 325 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: many other representations is is the human being who successfully 326 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: produces these wonderful somersaults over the boom? So I wouldn't 327 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: say it's necessarily terror. And the other hybrid figures, and 328 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: they are so small, um, they are not part of 329 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: large compositions, it would be difficult to say whether they 330 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: have any fearful terror elements in them. I would say probably. 331 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: The answer to that is again my hunch is probably no. 332 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: It simply shows an interesting fascination in the animal world. 333 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: Armed now, of course, the myths involved the greatness involved 334 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: not only the minute are but the labyrinth. Is there 335 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: currently any archaeological evidence to support the existence of the 336 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: Manoan labyrinth of Greek myth or some actual structure or 337 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: complex that would have inspired it. I mean yes and 338 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: no in the sense that there is no building in 339 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: my non treat that can be described as a complicated maze, 340 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: that is a complicated system of parts or edges, designed 341 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: as a puzzle through which one has to find the way. No, 342 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: but the ruins of my non palaces, especially the ruins 343 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: of cloissance Um, can have for us a kind of 344 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: labyry in fine appearance. And also Sarah Evans, the excavator 345 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: of Cloissance, presented the large stature that he excavated as 346 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: the real Cretan labyrinth because he connected the word labyrinth 347 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: with labraries, which is a term used in later Greek 348 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: text to indicate the double ax. And he also suggested 349 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: that labyrinth meant the house of the double ax, because 350 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: he noted that many Mason's marks found at Cnaissance in 351 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: very prominent locations. Had the shape of this object had 352 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: the shape of a double axe. But I should like 353 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: to remark that the connection between the word labyrinth and 354 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: labraries appears to be much more tenuous than Evans suggested, 355 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: because there are linguistic difficulties in relating the these two 356 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: words that have been pointed out by several philologists, by 357 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: several linguists. And also I'd like to remark that yes, 358 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: Mason's marks in the shape of a double axe do 359 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: appear very frequently and perhaps most frequently at Cnossource than 360 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: are the minor on sides, but they're not exclusive to 361 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: Cronos Source. You can find in them also at other 362 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: minor on sides. And also that there are other signs 363 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: are the masons marks that are also very common at Cnossauce. 364 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: Now in addition to the miniatur and the labyrinthya. Of course, 365 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: the other key part of these stories is King Minos 366 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: himself behind the you know, the fantastic and the monstrous 367 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: aspects of the particular character that we find in Greek mythology. 368 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: Is there a true historic element to this king? Who knows? Perhaps? Possibly? 369 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: But the issue who really ruled in my non Creed 370 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: is very much debated, and perhaps we should bear in 371 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: mind that when we talk of my non Creed, we 372 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: speak of about two millennia, and it is very likely 373 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: that political systems, these social organizations changed in this two millennia. 374 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: Some scholars think that perhaps some form of royalty and 375 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: perhaps even of Chrossian supremacy may have existed in Crete, 376 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: especially in what archeologists called the Neoplacial period, that is, 377 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: from about seventeen hundred to fourteen fifty BC. But there 378 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: are also many scholars who prefer to see my non 379 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: creed as ruled by women or by some kind of 380 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: gender balanced elite class, almost like council or a corporation 381 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: of men and women together, rather than a single ruler. 382 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: But it's possible that for some part of the history 383 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: of my noncreat for some periods, there may have been 384 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: a supreme ruler whose memory might have inspired later stories 385 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: about King Mines. All right, on that note, we're going 386 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but we'll be right back 387 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: with Nicoletta Momiliano, and we're back now. As for the Minotar, 388 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: the mythic minotar itself, why do you think the minetar 389 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: resonates so strongly in Western traditions. Do you think it 390 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: reveals something about the broader human condition, or rather, are 391 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: we inflating and building on something that would have had 392 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, far different, more specific associations for ancient people's well, 393 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: I think that, at least for some ancient people, for 394 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: some Greeks, the story of the Minotour had more specific 395 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: association um, because in a sense, the Greek myths related 396 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: to King Minus, the Minotour and song could be seen 397 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: almost like a morality tale, an example of a punishment 398 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: inflicted by the gods because King Minus didn't keep one 399 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: of his promises to the gods. Um. But of course, 400 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: the story of the Minotour, like many many other Greek myths, 401 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: m Greek narratives, and not just Greek narratives, but also 402 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: Near Eastern narratives ken and has been endlessly re imagined 403 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: to address different aspects of human condition at different times 404 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: and in different periods. And there are some fascinating examples 405 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: of really different imaginations and different symbolies of the encounter, 406 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: for example, between theseus and the minor term. And you 407 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: can find many examples in literature or in the visual 408 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: and performing arts from the last novel by andre A. 409 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: Gid says, just the encounter is more almost like an 410 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: encounter between the individual and his own sexuality. Um. There 411 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: are other encounters in uh works by Picasso, in works 412 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: by the Greek, famous Greek author Nikos Katzanzakis, in which 413 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: the encounter between theseus and the minor tour is almost 414 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: like an encounter between and all the civilization and non 415 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: civilization and the Greek civilization, UM and so on. So 416 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: the symbolism changes all the time, and there are so 417 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: many different examples. So of course it is because it 418 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: relates to um different aspects of the human condition. I said, 419 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: whether it's seen as a symbolism of one's sexuality, to 420 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: the animal elements in human beings, almost like a struggle 421 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: between different impulses. So it can be reimagined and invented 422 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: with different meanings all the time. Now, in your book 423 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: you you you mentioned various examples of artistic performance or 424 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: literary works that are you know, based in some part 425 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: on the minitar myth or Mino and creed. Do you 426 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: do you have a personal favorite? Now, this is really 427 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: the most difficult quest for me to answer, because you 428 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: really put me on the spot here those I have 429 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: so many favorites, it's it's very difficult for me to 430 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: choose because also it's so many different materials, as he said, 431 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: for performance, literary works and songs. In the visual arts, 432 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: probably my favorite it work occupied by the material culture 433 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: of my non cret is Paul klass sketch titled the 434 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: Snake God This and Her Enemy that he created in 435 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: nine But I also love um one of the sketches 436 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: made by Mark Chagall. One is an irreverent take on 437 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: famous my non fresco of bull leaping, and I also 438 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: sound like some of the paintings by a local Cretan painter, 439 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: the one who actually produced the cover. The illustration for 440 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: the cover of my book Roussettos Panagiatakis has um very 441 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: very sexy mino tour um and uh, and I like 442 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: it very much. It reminds me of salvatorro Da L's 443 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: surrealistic paintings. And in the performing arts, I have a 444 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: very very soft spot for the gigantic snake goddess that 445 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: appears in the opera Mino Tour by the British composer. 446 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: A contemporary British composer Sir Harrison birth Whistle, and I 447 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: also have a soft spot for the ballet La Premi 448 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: didem Phone, which was first performed in nineteen twelve in 449 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: Paris and was choreographed by the famous dancer Baslav Nijinsky 450 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: and the costumes who are created by Leon Box and 451 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: the costumes have some my non elements. And among literary works, 452 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: I like a poem written by Cecile Lewis entitled Statuette 453 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: Late mine on which was written around ninety seven and 454 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: again is also inspired by the famous snake Goddess from Cnossus. 455 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: And I love the story the short story The Ivory 456 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: Acrobat by the American writer Don Delillon, and the ivoryan 457 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: Krobat is named after another the famous fine discovery from Cnossauce, 458 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: and I also like Don Delillo's novel The Names, which 459 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: has plenty of references to Minor and Create so recently 460 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: on the show. In considering a couple of different Greek 461 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: myths that feature a monster, one's the myth of Perseus 462 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: and Medusa and the other is Theseus and the Minotaur. 463 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: In reading both of them, I find, as a modern reader, 464 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: I feel a lot of sympathy for the monster, for 465 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: for Medusa and for the minutea, it seems, uh, it 466 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: seems very unfair to them what happens to them, almost 467 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: like they're not even really the aggressor of the story. 468 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 1: That the hero is kind of the aggressor of the story. 469 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: And both the case of Perseus and and theseus. So 470 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: it is that way of reading the story completely alien 471 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: to the context in which they originated. Is that just 472 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: our modern way of interpreting a story, where you know, 473 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: the people who originally told and heard these stories probably 474 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: would not have felt such sympathies. Or is that element 475 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: of kind of pity and unfairness there even in the 476 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: ancient understanding of these myths. I honestly don't know, because uh, 477 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: certainly some a lot of modern imaginations of the myth 478 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: of Thesis and the Minotor that I've come across when 479 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: working on my book sympathize with the minotor completely. Um. 480 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: For example, in g the Minotor is not the monster 481 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: at all, it's a beautiful young man. Again, in Sir 482 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: Harrison Bird Whistles Opera the Minotor, the sympathy is with 483 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: the Minutor, not with the other people at all. Um 484 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: to say, I mean to say that nobody in antiquity 485 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: ever felt something like this would be I think unfair 486 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: and unjust. There might have been some people in antiquity 487 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: who may have felt some sympathy for the monsters. Well, 488 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: I can't exclude this a priority. I would have probably 489 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: thought that the majority of the people didn't. But why not? 490 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: I mean it's I mean, it's like saying that everybody, 491 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: every modern person now feels sympathy with the minotor. Perhaps 492 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: many people do nowadays, but not everybody might do. So 493 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,720 Speaker 1: why should we treat the people who lived in antiquity 494 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: as a complete single block. Different people may have reacted 495 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: in different ways to these stories. Somebody a bit original 496 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: might have felt sympathy for the minotor. Why not? And 497 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: some people even thought that the minotor was not an 498 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: animal at all. Even in antiquities. There are lots of 499 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: different explanations and different views. So I would not want 500 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: to say a priori that nobody in antiquity felt sympathy 501 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: with the minotor, although it strikes me as perhaps a 502 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: kind of sensibility and uh that it's a bit more modern. 503 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 1: But ancients could be very modern too in their feeling, 504 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: in their feelings in there, in the way in which 505 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: they present things that are not necessarily black and white. 506 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: But though this stray is quite a lot from my 507 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: no and crete, this has more to do with the 508 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: later periods with Greek mythology. So it's it's Halloween season 509 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: for many of our listeners. UM, So we're wondering if 510 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: you could recommend any particular suitable minoteur related works for 511 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: the Halloween season. Um. Like you mentioned so many different things. 512 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: For instance, I noticed that you mentioned a minute our 513 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: book by Russian author Victor Pelvin. I read it it 514 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: really enjoyed his novel The Sacred Book of the Werewolf 515 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: many years ago, and I just hadn't been keeping I 516 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: hadn't really kept up with what other other things he 517 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: had written. But you you point out that that he 518 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: wrote a minotar based work as well. Yes. Well, to 519 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: be perfectly honest, I can't think of, um, something that 520 00:39:53,280 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: is particularly spooky, that is in the spirit suitable to Halloween. UM. 521 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: But many reimaginations of the myth of the minoritor can 522 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: be a bit unnerving and disturbing. UM. And indeed, I 523 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: would say the book by Victor Pelevin that you have 524 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: just referred to, which was published in English with the 525 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: title The Helmet of Horrors. I think it's a bit 526 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: of an unnerving story because it reimagines the Labyrinth of 527 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: Minus as very modern internet chat room. That sounds good. 528 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for talking 529 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: to us today. Thank you so much. All right, well, 530 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: there you have it. Thanks once again so much to 531 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: Professor Nicoletto Mamiliano again, author of In Search of the Labyrinth, 532 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: the Cultural Legacy of Minoan Creed. It's out now, you 533 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: can find it. It it you know, it just came out. 534 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: It's available in paperback, hard back, and as an e book. 535 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 536 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, such as 537 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: our our previous episode of the Minotaur on the Minotaur, 538 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: or if you want to look out for our next 539 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: episode that is gonna deal a little bit more with 540 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: the Minotaur. We can't stop, Yeah, we can't start. We're 541 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 1: lost in the Labyrinth. Um. If you want to check 542 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: any of that out, you can find our podcast wherever 543 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, wherever that happens to be. We 544 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: just ask that you rate, review, and subscribe. But you 545 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: can find us at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 546 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: That'll shoot you over to the I heart page for 547 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: our podcast, and if you go there, I think there's 548 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: a link for a store you can check that out. 549 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 1: There's some t shirts, some logos, some stickers, et cetera, 550 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 1: including a few that are mythological in nature. Huge thanks 551 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 552 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 553 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 554 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: the topic for the future, just to say hello, you 555 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 1: can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow your 556 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: Mind Mind dot Com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is 557 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 558 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,280 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 559 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you listening to your favorite shows.