1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: The resentencing hearing for the Menendez brothers was delayed again 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 2: last week. 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: I would ask you'd asked the DA why at the 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: last minute he doesn't hail mary filing of emotion to 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: continue and does not notify any of the. 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 3: Victims or the victim's lawyer. Why what is going on? 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: Whose interest is he? Vindicating The newly elected LA District 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: Attorney Nathan Hakman through a curveball. Just hours before the 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: hearing was supposed to begin, he asked for a delay, 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: arguing that the judge should first see a risk assessment 12 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: on the brothers done by the California Parole Board as 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: part of a separate proceeding. 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 4: We believed it constituted additional facts that the court should 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 4: consider in deciding whether or not the Menendez brothers do 16 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 4: pose a risk of danger to society. 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: Hawkman reversed corps from the prior d who said the 18 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: brothers had been rehabilitated while in prison and should be 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: eligible for parole as youthful offenders. But Hawkman firmly opposes 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: the resentencing. 21 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 4: In order to be truly rehabilitated, you have to acknowledge 22 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 4: the full breadth of your criminal conduct, your cover up, 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 4: and your lives. 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: Mark Geragos, the brother's attorney, is calling for Hawkman to 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: be thrown off the case, saying the DA is biased 26 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: against the brothers and not acting in good faith with 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: the other Menandez family members, including some who flew in 28 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: to testify at the hearing. Joining me is Attorney Dave Ahrenberg, 29 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: the former Palm Beach County State Attorney. A report on 30 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: each brother was recently conducted by a forensic psychologist as 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: part of the Parole Board's clemency investigation. Why did this 32 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: end up delaying the hearing that had been scheduled, Well, the. 33 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: Judge wants to make sure he's got all the information. 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: Because the judge actually rejected the demands of the district 35 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: attorney to not have the resentencing. The previous district attorney 36 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: wanted the resentencing. The newly elected district attorney did not 37 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: want the resentencing. So the judge said surprisingly that Nope, 38 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 3: no takebacks. We're going to go ahead with this resentencing, 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 3: and we want to make sure that we have every 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: possible document so that if the Menandaz brothers get released, 41 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: that the judge has some cover from outside experts. Isn't 42 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: just releasing these brutal murders into the public without enough 43 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: paperwork to justify it. 44 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: Is the judge entitled to hear something from a separate 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 2: proceeding before the parole board. There are two completely separate things, 46 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: aren't they right? 47 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 3: The parle board is different, but it's relevant for the judge. 48 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: The judge is the boss. He can decide to examine 49 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 3: whatever he wants to because this is not a jury trial. 50 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 3: This is not about the rules of evidence in keeping 51 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: things from the jury to make sure the defendant gets 52 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 3: a fair trial. This is about getting as much information 53 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: as possible so the judge can make a decision on 54 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 3: the resentence. Maybe what the judge decide, the pro Board 55 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 3: will get involved. In fact, the pro Board could get 56 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 3: involved even if the judge decides to reject a Menendez 57 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 3: brother's request to get out of jail early, because then 58 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 3: the governor, through the clemency process, could refer to the 59 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 3: pro board. So the pro Board is relevant regardless of 60 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: what the judge says or does. 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: The District Attorney's team filed a motion for continuance just 62 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: hours before the hearing. I mean, they knew this was 63 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: out there, Why so late to try to delay this? 64 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: You know, I don't know that answer. The defense lawyers 65 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 3: have been wanting to speed up this process for a 66 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 3: while because their clients sit behind bars, So I don't 67 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: know why they decide to delay it right now. Maybe 68 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: it's because they had not fully vetted this reporter. Maybe 69 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: the report has some damaging things in it that they 70 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: need to respond to, So maybe that's perhaps the answer. 71 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 2: So let's talk about this second district attorney, the newly 72 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: elected district attorney who says that Eric and Lylemanendez have 73 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: to admit that they've lied to everyone for the past 74 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 2: thirty years, and also says that the abuse they're claiming 75 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 2: doesn't amount to a self defense claim. And this sort 76 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,679 Speaker 2: of always hits me with parole hearings where they want 77 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: the accused to say that they're guilty. Why is it 78 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: so important to him to hear them say that they lied? 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 3: Because they lied, So that's why he wants them to 80 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 3: mess up, because they're liars. They lied throughout the whole process. 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: They lied about the motivations. At first, they said they 82 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: weren't even the killers. They were going out there living 83 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 3: large until finally it got back to them. These Menenda's 84 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 3: brothers tried to cover their tracks, and that's why a 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: lot of us think that they should face the penalty 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 3: of the jury and the judge gave them, which is 87 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 3: life in prison. And so there on the brink of 88 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 3: getting a major break here, and so the least that 89 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: they could do, according to the district attorneys, at least 90 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 3: admit that you lied, at least emit and own up 91 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: to what you did so that you can show real 92 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 3: remorse instead of all the smokescreens have been putting up 93 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 3: for the past several decades. 94 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 2: But isn't it resentencing about whether or not they've changed 95 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: and rehabilitated themselves in prison. 96 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: Well, there's two things. The original DA who was voted 97 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 3: out of office, said that he supported the resentencing because 98 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 3: the brothers supposedly were on really good behavior and were 99 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: model prisoners, and that is a reason why the former 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 3: DA wanted them released. That's the main reason. But there's 101 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 3: another reason that will come up in the resentencing hearing, 102 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 3: in that the defense is saying that the brothers were 103 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: not allowed to pursue their abuse excuse, which is that 104 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 3: their father, Jose sexually abused him, and that modifies the 105 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 3: crime because they're saying that it's now manslaughter instead of murder. 106 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 3: That they were under extreme emotional stress, they were acting 107 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 3: as victims of sexual abuse and that's why they did it. 108 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 3: They were not allowed to bring up that defense at trial. 109 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: So there are two avenues that the defense is going. 110 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: Number one, that their model prisoners and deserve to be 111 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: released early. And number two that they were victims of 112 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: sexual abuse from the father and thus there should be 113 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: a manslaughter case and not a murder case. And if 114 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: it is a manslaughter conviction, then they would have been 115 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: out already. 116 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, because in the first trial the evidence or the 117 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 2: testimony about sex abuse was allowed in and then the 118 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: second trial it wasn't correct. 119 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 3: And this is the second trial that convicted them. The 120 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 3: first trial led to a hung jury. Of course, in 121 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 3: boat trials they were wearing those mister rogers Wedters had 122 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 3: to try to soften them after himing such a brutal crime, 123 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: being such a spoiled and titled kids who lived high 124 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 3: in the hog after they murdered their parents. And keep 125 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 3: in mind, when they did what they did, the parents 126 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: had their backs turned to them. The parents were watching 127 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 3: TV eating ice cream on the couch while the boys 128 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: walked up behind them and then blew them away with shotguns. 129 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 3: And when the mother tried crawling away because she didn't die, 130 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: the boys went back outside to reload their shotgun to 131 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 3: come in and finish the job. And there was so 132 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: much blood at the scene that investigators thought it was 133 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 3: a mob hit. And the brothers lied. They lied the 134 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 3: whole time, and they lied until they could lie no more. 135 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: And that's why the DA's saying, all right, guys, own 136 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 3: up to what you did, own up to what you said, 137 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 3: and then you can get a break. 138 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: Where does it play in that Almost all except I 139 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: think for one of the family members are supporting their 140 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: bid to get out of prison. 141 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, this has become a cause slept and the momentum 142 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: is clearly with the brothers. They've been all the movies, 143 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: documentaries and time does heal some wounds and so with 144 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 3: new information also about Jose's sexual abuse allegedly of the 145 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: minudo boy band member, and then some other evidence that 146 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 3: was not admitted in the second trial where apparently one 147 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: of the brothers confided in someone that he was a 148 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: victim of sexual abuse. That all this together has galvanized 149 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: the family to support the brothers, not all the family, 150 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 3: but almost all. But the DA doesn't represent the victims 151 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: or the families. The DA represents the people. It's the 152 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 3: state the people, and the DA has to make the 153 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 3: best decision based on principles of justice, and this DA 154 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 3: says principles of justice mean they should not get out 155 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 3: of prison now. It's not just the DA's call, it's 156 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 3: the judge's call now, and the former DA help push 157 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 3: this along. That's why the judge has a lot of power. 158 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: And even if the judge says no, then the governor 159 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 3: could still get involved and work with a pro board 160 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: to let them free. 161 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: The defense attorney feels that this DA is prejudiced against them, 162 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 2: and even the family members complained because during the last hearing, 163 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: the DA showed those gruesome photos of the murders without 164 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: telling them that that was going to happen, and one 165 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: of the ants ended up in the hospital and the 166 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: family said she'd been traumatized by the photos, and the 167 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: deputy DA apologized for not warning them, but said Eric 168 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: and Lyle Menendez caused that carnage, not me, which almost 169 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: sounds like a retraction of the apology. So it seems 170 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: like the La County DA has taken some missteps, and 171 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: so the defense attorney is asking for the DA to 172 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: be thrown off the case and replaced by the Attorney 173 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: General of the state. Is that at all likely? 174 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 3: Yeah? I don't think that should happen, And I don't 175 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: think the DA has crossed the line of the days 176 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 3: using the pictures of what had happened. I mean, if 177 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 3: you're going to let them free, you got to come 178 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 3: to grips with what they did and not just gloss 179 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 3: over it. It shouldn't be a one sided conversation. I mean, 180 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 3: they committed a brutal, horrific crime, and just because decades 181 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: have passed and now Kim Kardashian and major celebrities are 182 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 3: behind them, doesn't mean you get a whitewash what they did. 183 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 3: And so that's where the DA's like, hey, remember what 184 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: they did. Remember who were murdered here? I mean he's 185 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: giving voice to Kitty and Jose. And even if Jose 186 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: committed sexual abuse of the brothers, does that justify what 187 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: they did to Kitty. I mean, Kitty was murdered in 188 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 3: such a horrific way when she was trying to crawl 189 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 3: away to save her life. That I don't see how 190 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: that would be justified under manslaughter principles and not pure murder. 191 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: I mean, there's no credible allegation that Kitty engaged in 192 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: sexual abuse with the kids. Now the argument is that 193 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: she looked the other way, But does that justify her 194 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 3: brutal murder? So that's why I think, you know, I 195 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 3: understand why the DA one of those pictures in of 196 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 3: course they should should have given some notice, but that's 197 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 3: not enough to kick them off the case. 198 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 2: And so, and as you said, even if the judge 199 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: resentences them, they'll still have to go before the parole board. 200 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 3: You know, the pro board does have an involvement here, 201 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: and yes, they'd still be involved. And that's why it's 202 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 3: not just the judge that makes the complete decision. The 203 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 3: par board is involved. And even if the judge decides 204 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: to reject the request from the defense, the pro board 205 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 3: will get involved. If the governor decides to move ahead 206 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 3: with clemency. 207 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, nothing stops the governor from granting clemency. And the 208 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: rehearing is now reschedule from May ninth. We'll see if 209 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: it actually takes place this time coming up next on 210 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Law Show. I'll continue this conversation with Dave 211 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: Ahrenberg on Friday. Luigia Mangioni is set to make his 212 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: first appearance in federal court since the Justice Department said 213 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: it would seek the death penalty in charging mangione murdered 214 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: a United Healthcare executive. I'm June Grosso. When you're listening 215 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: to Bloomberg. On Friday, Luigi Mangioni is set to make 216 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 2: his first appearance in federal court since the Justice Department 217 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: said it would seek the death penalty. The twenty six 218 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: year old Ivy League graduate was indicted on a federal 219 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: murder charge in the killing of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. 220 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 2: Mangioni's indictment, returned by a federal grand jury in Manhattan, 221 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 2: includes a charge of murder through the use of a firearm, 222 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 2: which carries the possibility of the death penalty. I've been 223 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: talking to Dave Ahrenberg, former Palm Beach County State Attorney. 224 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 2: Why are the Feds bringing charges as well as the state. 225 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 3: The Feds have a time for here. Number One, they 226 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: get to show that they are tough on crime, that 227 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: they are reversing the Biden error policy on having a 228 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: moratorium on the death penalty. And number two, they get 229 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: to own the libs. I mean, those are two big 230 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 3: motivations for this administration because Luigi Mangioni support really comes 231 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 3: from folks on the left who hate insurance companies and 232 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: treat Luigi as a hero for what he did. And 233 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 3: so the Trump administration gets to burnish their tough on 234 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: crime credentials while at the same time upsetting those who 235 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 3: never supported them to begin with, upsetting the people who 236 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 3: are the most strident anti Trump advocates. And that's why 237 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: they're doing what they're doing, even though because I got 238 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 3: to believe they don't really believe they're going to get 239 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 3: the death penalty in New York. New York is a 240 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 3: blue state, and you have to get a unanimous jury 241 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: to impose a death penalty there, and that's going to 242 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 3: be really, really hard to do, especially because you've got 243 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 3: a young guy with no criminal record, who is good looking, 244 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 3: in a cause celeb and just the reality it's tough 245 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 3: in those kinds of cases to give someone capital punishment. 246 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: All the reasons you gave for why the federal government 247 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 2: is bringing these charges are political reasons, not legal reasons, 248 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 2: not based on a pursuit of justice. 249 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: Well, those reasons I gave are the reasons why they're 250 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: seeking the death penalty. Now, as far as reasons why 251 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: they're prosecuting the case, I would add that I do 252 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: think there is a feeling within the Trump administration that 253 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: New York prosecutors are not to be trusted because in 254 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 3: this case, the DA is Alvian Bragg Junior, who is 255 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 3: the prosecutor prosecutor Donald Trump in Manhattan. 256 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: And he got a conviction. I don't know why they 257 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: don't trust him. 258 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, they don't trust him because they think he's political, 259 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 3: and they don't They just don't like him. So they 260 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: are using themselves as a backstop to make sure that 261 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 3: this case gets treated in the right way and as 262 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 3: harshly as they believe it should be treated. They don't 263 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: trust Alvin Bragg for the reasons I just mentioned. So 264 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: for all these reasons, yes, a lot of them are political, 265 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: but keep in mind the evidence is overwhelming against luigim MANJIONI. 266 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: Although I don't think he'll get the death penalty, I 267 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: don't think there's any doubt that he'll be convicted I mean, 268 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 3: he wrote a confession, they got pictures of him clearly 269 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 3: as the guy who did it, from the hostel to 270 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 3: the on the street, and it really was a cowardly 271 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 3: thing to do. I mean, if you have a beef 272 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 3: in the insurance company, you don't lie in wait, wear 273 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 3: a mask, shoot someone in the back and run away. 274 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: That's cowardly. He's a hero. 275 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: There's a ton of evidence. I'm not saying that. I'm 276 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: just disagreeing about the FEDS bringing charges and getting around 277 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: the double jeopardy because this doesn't look like a case 278 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: that the FED should be involved in. He's going to 279 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: be tried in New York. It's a state crime. 280 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 3: Yes, but there are other cases where the Feds. 281 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 2: Will I know, and I disagreed with those two. They're 282 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: able to get around that not being tried twice for 283 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 2: the same crime. 284 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: But it's a separate sovereign you know, you're allowed to 285 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: try people twice if it's not the same exact crime. 286 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: In the federal and the state are also you know, 287 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 3: they're separate sovereigns. So it happens. Now. One time it 288 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: didn't happen was when the state decided to prosecute Paul 289 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: Maniford after he was pardoned by Donald Trump at for 290 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: federal crimes, and the state of New York tried to 291 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 3: do that and the state Supreme Court said, Nope, can't 292 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: do that here. But it doesn't work quite that way 293 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 3: the other way around. 294 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: And Mangioni's lawyers are arguing that the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, 295 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: announcing that she was ordering prosecutors to seek the death 296 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: penalty before he was indicted was a stunt, political stunt 297 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: that corrupted the grand jury process and derived him of 298 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: his constitutional right to do process. 299 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 3: I disagree. It may have been a political stunt, but 300 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: it doesn't deprive him of his right to do process. 301 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: It didn't taint the grand jury. I mean, the grand 302 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: jury did what they did. They focus on the evidence 303 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 3: and the law, and there's plenty of evidence to indict 304 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: him for first degree murder at the state level and 305 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 3: for the federal charges as well. So I don't think 306 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 3: it handed the jury have been political stunt. But you know, 307 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 3: these are the types of things that happen, you know, 308 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 3: you know what else is the political stunt? When Eric 309 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 3: Adams walked with the armed team surrounding Luigim Mangoni on 310 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 3: the way to court, Like, what was that about. I mean, 311 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 3: this case is politicized from the beginning. 312 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 2: That was a political stunt, there is no doubt about it. 313 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: I mean the response to that was why is he 314 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: escorting him? Everybody wanted a piece of Luigi Mangoni's fame 315 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: or infamy. 316 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 3: That was awful. Politicians shouldn't be the mess around the 317 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: criminal justice system because and only jeopardizes cases when you 318 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: do that. But even that, I thought that was over 319 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 3: the top, that Eric Adams shouldn't have been walking with 320 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 3: the armed law enforcement officers who are escorting luigim Angoni. 321 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 3: But even that, I don't think the prize them all 322 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 3: right to a fair trial. I mean, this is the 323 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 3: case that everyone's going to hear about, everyone's going to know, 324 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 3: people are going to draw their own opinions, and you 325 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: just have to find a jury that will set aside 326 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: what they know and any buas they have and just 327 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 3: follow the evidence of the law. And I've seen that 328 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 3: happen in every high profile case, and I've been involved 329 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 3: with a few of them, and you can always find 330 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 3: a jury. I mean, they found a jury for Donald Trump. 331 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 3: Everyone knew about him and everyone had opinions about him. 332 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 3: But yet they found an unbiased jury in Manhattan that 333 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 3: listened to the evidence and followed the law. 334 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 2: In New York, though, it seems like the case has 335 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: been overcharged with the first degree murder charges that have 336 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: to be in furtherance of an act of terrorism, which 337 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: the legal definition of his intent to intimidate or coerce 338 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 2: the civilian population or a government unit, And that doesn't 339 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 2: seem to be the case here. First of all, was 340 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: in the early morning hours when there was no one around. 341 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 3: I agree with you, I think the case is overcharged 342 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 3: in New York. New York is a weird system where 343 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: it's not first degree murder unless it has some sort 344 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 3: of enhance or like some sort of extra like terrorism. 345 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 3: So that's why Alvin Bragg got that indictment about terrorism, 346 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: even though really isn't an act of terrorism. I don't think, 347 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 3: I mean, was he trying to intimidate the public. His 348 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: writings said that he was trying to avoid any public cash, 349 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 3: any innocence. He was trying to avoid that, and he 350 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 3: focused entirely on this one individual. And you see by 351 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: the public support behind him, it's not exactly he was 352 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 3: trying to terrorize people. If anything, he was trying to 353 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 3: galvanize them behind him and his cause to fight against 354 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 3: the insurance company. So I think that's like a square 355 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 3: peg in a round hole. I think it's gonna be 356 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 3: hard for them to get that enhancer. And that is 357 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 3: another reason why the FEDS have come in. I think 358 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 3: fed saw that saw that they really don't have a 359 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 3: true first or murder statue that applies here in New York. 360 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: So let's come in with our own, and not only 361 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 3: will we ensure he gets life in prison, we'll even 362 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: seek the death penalty, which again not going to happen, 363 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 3: but I do think they'll ensure that he never spends 364 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 3: a day outside the prison for the rest of his life. 365 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: Let's turn down to the case against p Diddy. Opening 366 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 2: statements in the trial are set for May twelfth. What 367 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 2: are the charges against him? Because the prosecution has updated 368 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 2: the indictment three times. 369 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 3: In the Didty case, the he did superseding indictments, which 370 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 3: was expected. What they've done is they've added parties to it, 371 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: new victims, They've added more detail to it. There's more 372 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: counts now, so you know that's what happens in these 373 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 3: types of cases. When more information comes forward, and did 374 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 3: he wanted a postponement saying there's all these new victims 375 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 3: now to like two more victims, we need more time 376 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 3: to prepare. But those victims were mentioned in the first 377 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 3: superseding indictment back into January, and so they've got plenty 378 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 3: of time to prepare for trial. The trial is going 379 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 3: in the beginning of May, and so they had had 380 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: enough time. Plus even if these individuals were not mentioned 381 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 3: until January. Did he knew what was going on? He 382 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 3: knew what he did, and so it's not like any 383 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 3: of this stuff is a big surprise for him. His 384 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: attorneys may not have known exactly what the charges would 385 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: it be, but they knew with plenty of time for 386 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 3: the May trial. 387 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: I was surprised that he didn't get bail. I mean, 388 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: they could have had electronic monitoring of him so he 389 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: wouldn't escape the country. Why do you think they didn't 390 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: give him any bail at all? 391 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 3: Because he's a rich guy who has tried to tamper 392 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 3: with witnesses. So you've got tampering with witnesses, and you've 393 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 3: got person with means who lives in Miami right on 394 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 3: the water, easy to send a boat, just get out 395 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 3: of dodge. So I think it was the right move 396 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 3: to keep behind bars. You want to do justice for 397 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 3: the victims here, and there's no justice. So he's able 398 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: to leave to a country that has no extradition policy. 399 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 2: Have they indicated yet what the defense will be. 400 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 3: His defense is going to be consent for the victims 401 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,239 Speaker 3: of the human trafficking. He's going to say that these 402 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 3: parties are these are all adults, these are not miners, 403 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: So consent is a defense, and these were people who 404 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 3: engage in these, you know, these acts and it's a 405 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: money play that afterwards that he is being sued by 406 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 3: some and all these allegations going around. So it's really 407 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 3: going to be consent is the main defense here. 408 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: You think he will take the stand. Any chance interesting 409 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 2: always a chance. 410 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 3: But whenever you have a big celebrity, you know, who 411 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 3: make a living off the support of the public, where 412 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 3: you have to convince them that you are someone who 413 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 3: is likable and talented, and I think that they're more 414 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 3: inclined to take the stand. Now, I bet he and 415 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 3: this guy's a big ego, he'll want to take the stand. 416 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 3: His lawyers may say, no, no, no, you do that 417 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 3: and they're going to bring in all this other stuff 418 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 3: that they otherwise can't bring in. So I say, it'll 419 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: depend how it's going. Depends how it's going. If it 420 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 3: looks like it's going badly, then that's the hill Mary pass. 421 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 3: Then he'll take the stand. If it looks like the 422 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 3: prosecution has not proved its case, then he is sitting 423 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 3: there with a zipper over his mouth. 424 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember the last time he was tried 425 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: in New York, years and years and years ago. I 426 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: think was on the gun charge. Johnny cochrane was his 427 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: defense lawyer. That's how long ago that was. So several 428 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: big cases happening in the Manhattan courts. Once again, thanks 429 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: so much, Dave. It's always a pleasure. That's Day Ehrenberg, 430 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 2: former Palm Beach County State Attorney. In less than a year, 431 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: two judges have found that Google is a monopolist, and 432 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: now Google is facing the ultimate threat that Microsoft faced 433 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: more than twenty five years ago, as the government tries 434 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: to break up the tech giant. A hearing kicked off 435 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 2: today in Washington, d C. To decide the remedy after 436 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 2: a federal judge's decision last August that Google's search engine 437 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: is a monopoly. This comes just days after a federal 438 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: judge in Maryland ruled in a separate case that Google 439 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 2: illegally monopolized the market for online advertising technology. Joining me 440 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: is Justin Teresi, Bloomberg Intelligence antitrust analyst. Justin can you 441 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: explain that one hundred and fourteen page decision by Judge Brinkman. 442 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: So, I think this is one of those cases where 443 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: the facts of the matter are actually far more complicated 444 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: than the law underpinning it, right, So I'll do my 445 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: best to break it down for you. That's right, So Google, 446 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: And this is important too. The case is really limited 447 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: to something called open web display advertising. And what I 448 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: mean by that is when you go to a desktop 449 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: version of a website, think about those little rectangular or 450 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: square ads that you see on the web page itself. 451 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: So think like local newspapers or you know, something like that, 452 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: where you go to the website and you see those ads. 453 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: What's not in the market here really important, I think 454 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: to the remedies phase is that we're not talking about 455 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: mobile ads, the mobile versions of a website. We're not 456 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: talking about the ads you might see in an app. 457 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: We're not talking about the ads you might see in 458 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: connected TV platforms where you might see something streaming. So 459 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: that's kind of the nuts and bolts of what we're 460 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: looking at the three different markets. Google has a business 461 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: on both the buy sides, so folks looking at place advertisements. 462 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: The sell side, so the folks with websites looking to 463 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: sell that space. Then there's that ad exchange in the 464 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 1: middle that kind of match us up the right consumer 465 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: with the right website to see the right ad at 466 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: the right time. So that's kind of the three different 467 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: markets to your point. That's right, that the buy side, 468 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: the folks looking at place advertisements that fell out of 469 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: the liability funding with the judge fund that that particular 470 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: side of the market really had a very active competitive 471 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: marketplace existing in it. 472 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 2: And so why did she find that the other two 473 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: were monopolized? 474 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: Sure, so on the cell side with the publishers who 475 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,479 Speaker 1: are looking to have folks buy ad space on their site, 476 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: Google has over a ninety percent market share on that side, right, 477 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: So not too difficult to see why. You know, a 478 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: monopolization claim might have an easy time with some success there, 479 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: but really when it comes down to it, you know 480 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: that side was kind of tied to this AD exchange 481 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: in the middle in an illegal way. And the reason 482 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: why is that Google had all this real time demand 483 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: that it was serving through this ad exchange in the middle, 484 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: and in order to get access to that real time 485 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: demand to make the best business decisions you could, the 486 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: publishers for their websites had to use that Google cell 487 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: side platform in order to access that demand in the middle. 488 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: So that's really the tying that perpetrated the There was a. 489 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: Lot of emphasis on double click and ad meld, and 490 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: she found that those acquisitions were not anti competitive, right. 491 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: So you're right, she didn't find that those acquisitions were 492 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: anti competitive. It was more a question of what they 493 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: did with those companies once they bought them, right, So 494 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: they were able to kind of institute these policies that 495 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: again tied those two different things together, the AD server, 496 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: which was the Double Click for Publishers and the AD exchange, 497 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: and those policies they put in place that would ended 498 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: up being the issue. So what they would say is, hey, 499 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: you know, folks using our double Click for Publishers platform, 500 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: you know our AD exchange, they're going to get a 501 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: first look at the bids that are out there. From 502 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: our competitors. So kind of like think of it this way, 503 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: A write a first refusal in many ways, you know, 504 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: against other advertising exchanges. And then also they had a 505 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: policy for a while called last look. So think about 506 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: an auction at Seaby's or something, right, And the judge 507 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: actually loved this analogy and so I'm kind of ripping 508 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: her off with it. But you know, imagine everybody else 509 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: puts their bid in an envelope and you're also a bidder. 510 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: You see everybody else's big, and then you decide, hey, 511 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: I'm going to beat everybody else because I know what 512 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: they are. And that's the kind of policies that Google 513 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: had in place that were found to be the problem. 514 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: Google says it's going to appeal big surprise. It was 515 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: a big surprise or no surprises. So what are the 516 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: possible remedies in this case? 517 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: So I think a lot of folks are talking about 518 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: a potential divestiture for the publisher, ad server the cell 519 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: side here, But I have to tell you I kind 520 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: of don't think we're going to see that. And the 521 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: reason why is that, you know, well, it's certainly on 522 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: the table and more here than in the search case. 523 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: I think, you know, this tying of the two products 524 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: together that really seemed to be the issue. And at 525 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: the trial itself there was testimony from rival publisher ad 526 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: servers and from publishers who didn't want to be on 527 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: that product anymore, and when asked what was the issue, 528 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: they said, time and time again, we need that real 529 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: time and demand from the ad exchange. And it seems 530 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: to me that if you were to stip that tie 531 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: and stop the policies from perpetrating the way they are, 532 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: that probably goes a long way to resolve the anti 533 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: competitive findings of the court itself. Again, to your point, 534 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: the acquisition weren't found to be anti competitive. The problem 535 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: is how they behaved with those acquisitions once they were made. 536 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: And starting today there's a hearing on remedies in the 537 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: other antitrust case against Google, which was decided last August, 538 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 2: involving search tell us about that. 539 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: You know, I think similar to what we're seeing in 540 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: the ad tech case. So there has been a finding 541 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: by the court in the search related case that Google 542 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: has maintained its monopoly, and again the distinction being that, 543 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, the court didn't find that Google bought its 544 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: way into that monopoly in search. But the court is 545 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: again saying, is that you know, you developed search in 546 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: your own homegrown way. The court credited Google a lot 547 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: with their own kind of effort to make itself the 548 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: search monopoly it is, versus buying it from someone else. 549 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: But what they've done is they've entered these exclusivity agreements 550 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: with folks like Apple, so that Google search mechanism would 551 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: be that underlying platform. Whenever you use Safari or Siri, 552 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: it's running its search is over Google's search product, right, 553 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,479 Speaker 1: So and so doing Google's retained that kind of trained 554 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: knowledge and its search engine and its competitors allegedly, well, 555 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: I suppose found by the court can't really get to 556 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: scale because it's not having that learning through its algorithms 557 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: the way that Google search is. 558 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,959 Speaker 2: The last time the government tried to break up a 559 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: company like this was more than twenty five years ago 560 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: with Microsoft. What exactly is the government proposing here? 561 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: The way we're looking at this, I think is in 562 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: many ways it's kind of like an opening salve vote 563 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: in a negotiation. 564 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 4: Right. 565 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: And when I say that, what I mean is, you 566 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: know the government's kind of coming in here asking for 567 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: a divestiture of Chrome, which I don't think goes a 568 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: long way to solve the actual competitive harms found by 569 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: the court, the agreements of the problem, and the government 570 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: also for a time at least was looking for Google 571 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: to divest its investments in the AI space. Kind of 572 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: argument that that contributes to the problems here with search 573 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: as well. But realistically, you know, I think when we 574 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: step back for a moment and look at the problem again, 575 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: it was these exclusivity agreements. Perhaps what Google, you know, 576 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: would be forced to as a remedy is share some 577 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: of its data profiles or share some of its learning 578 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: tools with competitors they could get to scale. Perhaps you 579 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: see efforts to allow a choice screen on a phone, 580 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: which is being done in Europe now. Right, So when 581 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: you go to do a search, you don't automatically end 582 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: up with Google Chrome, but there are other search engines 583 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: that you can choose, and you know, perhaps that lends 584 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: a little bit more of a push to competitors. 585 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: I mean, Google is a verb. What's left of Googling 586 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: or Google if they have to divest. 587 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: That, it is absolutely a verb, and I think in 588 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: many different spaces to your point, so Chrome, Chrome is 589 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: the browser, right, So that is, I suppose the tool 590 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: to access the search engine itself. So we're not talking 591 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: about Google devesting its search engine. We're talking about that 592 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: browsing tool that gets you to the search engine. Right, 593 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: So you could still go to Google dot com, for example, 594 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: on Microsoft Edge or through your Safari browser if it's 595 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: not automatically pointed at Google, and you can access Google 596 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: Search that way. And I have to say, June, this 597 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: is really interesting too. You know, at the trial itself, 598 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: there was expert testimony about all these preset kind of defaults, 599 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: and the reality is you're right, any consumer can use 600 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: a different browser or go to a different search engine. 601 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: That's true, But the court seems swayed by an expert 602 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: at trial who testify folks are a little bit lazy. 603 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: They don't want to They're not going to go to 604 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: a different search engine if it's actually offered up to 605 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: if one's right there in their face for them to 606 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: go to. 607 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 2: Some of Google's partners, like Apple, probably won't be too 608 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 2: happy with some of these suggested remedies. 609 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: Right from a lot of the way things look. Apple 610 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: has a lot to lose right now in terms of 611 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: the search case, in the sense that Google's actually paying 612 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: Apple about twenty billion dollars a year to have these 613 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: default kind of presets for Google search engine, audits devices, 614 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: and you know, behind Safari, behind Siri, and Mozilla also, 615 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: which operates Firefox, receives about four hundred five hundred million 616 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: dollars a year for the same regarding its browsers. For 617 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: a big company like Apple, that definitely hurts. But Mozilla, 618 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: a really small company, a four hundred five hundred million 619 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: dollar payment per year could really means survival of the 620 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: company itself. So there are a lot of actors involved, 621 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: and a lot that could play out for companies outside 622 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: of just Google. 623 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 2: So you think that this might be a prelude, sort 624 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 2: of like Microsoft settled, a prelude to a settlement. 625 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: It could be. You know, with Search, I think things 626 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: are pretty far along, but I think you know, in 627 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: terms of a settlement coming together, You're right, anything could 628 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: happen while we're waiting for a remedy to be handed 629 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: out on the Search case. Same thing with the ad 630 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: Tech case, where we're working on remedies there. The government 631 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: certainly can settle claims at any time it wants to 632 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: during that phase or even up through an appellet process, 633 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: which is what happened in Microsoft, right, We were well 634 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: into an appeals process before a settlement happened there. So 635 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, the court will find what it's fine, the 636 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: appeals court will say what it says. But at the 637 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: end of the day, there's a lot of time here 638 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: left and a lot of runway left for the government 639 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: to settle claims if they want to have the actual 640 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: ultimate say here. 641 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: And the Google case is different from the medic case 642 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 2: because Google actually developed what's at stake here, while Meta 643 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: bought the competition. 644 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: To your point, I think that's a lot of what 645 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: the court was saying in both of these findings too, 646 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: is that there has been given some degree of credit 647 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: to Google for actually developing all of this, know how 648 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: on their own. They haven't just run out and acquired 649 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: a lot of these subsidiaries that are issue here. So 650 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: your points well taken. I'll tell you myself personally, I 651 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: love Google Search too. I don't know that I trust 652 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: everything else. 653 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: Now, the final step is going to be well not 654 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 2: the final step because there's President Trump possibly intervening, but 655 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: these are all going to go to the Supreme Court. 656 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: There's a high likelihood and not even just because we're 657 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: talking about a large defendant like Google. I think we're 658 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: talking about areas of antitrust law that really haven't been 659 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: tested for a very long time here, right, and there 660 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: are a lot of them with both of these cases. 661 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: The ad Tech case specifically, we're talking about refusals to deal. 662 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: On how far that goes. I think Google still will 663 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: fight that fight, even though they lost the trial court 664 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: on appeal. We're talking about two sided transaction markets, all 665 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: of these these kind of corners and you know, nitty 666 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: gritty of edit trust law where there's a lot of disagreement. 667 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: Folks love to have a lot of theoretical conversations about them, 668 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: but when it comes to black letter law, we're kind 669 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: of starving for it in some ways. From the court. 670 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about if there's no settlement years 671 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 2: and years before this is finalized. 672 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: I think that's accurate. I think we're looking at a 673 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: one to two window for just an appellate review of 674 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: some kind, even in the Search case. But yes, I 675 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: think we're looking at a long time down the road here. 676 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: Google showed no signs of kind of going away quietly either. 677 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: I don't think anyone expects Google to go away quietly. 678 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Justin. That's Bloomberg Intelligence antitrust analyst Justin Terteresi. 679 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: And that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. 680 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 681 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 682 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 2: and at www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, 683 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 684 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 685 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg