Speaker 1: That's how I lived. A lot of my life was
Speaker 1: trying to be perfect so I could be acceptable. And
Speaker 1: what I've found is, Wow, the more imperfect I am,
Speaker 1: the more acceptable I've actually become welcome to the one
Speaker 1: you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance
Speaker 1: of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out,
Speaker 1: or you are what you think, ring true. And yet
Speaker 1: for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on
Speaker 1: this episode is Los Sarmiento, a practitioner of Apostma meditation.
Speaker 1: Since they are the guiding teacher of the Inside Meditation
Speaker 1: Community of Washington's BIPOC and l g B t q
Speaker 1: I A plus Saga's a mentor for the Mindfulness Meditation
Speaker 1: Teacher Certification Program and cloud Saga, a contributor to the
Speaker 1: ten Percent Happier app and a graduate of Spirit Rocks
Speaker 1: Community Dharma Leader Training Program. Hi Lo, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Hi Eric, nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I am really happy to have you on and I
Speaker 1: look forward to this conversation. Let's start like we always
Speaker 1: do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent
Speaker 1: who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of his that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it
Speaker 1: for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandparents says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. Thank you, Eric. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a very powerful parable, you know. And it's interesting because
Speaker 1: when I was reflecting on it, I wasn't really thinking
Speaker 1: of it as a good wolf or a bad wolf.
Speaker 1: For me, it was a younger wolf in an older wolf,
Speaker 1: and the younger wolf in me was one who at
Speaker 1: a very early age recognized that my gender identity, my
Speaker 1: sexual orientation, the race ethnicity of my being was not
Speaker 1: one that was acceptable in this country. My parents immigrated
Speaker 1: from the Philippines and I came over when I was
Speaker 1: ten months old, and with that recognition of those social
Speaker 1: identity ease, I internalized a lot of external messages that
Speaker 1: I wasn't okay, that there was something wrong with me,
Speaker 1: that you know, I wasn't worthy of existence, you know,
Speaker 1: that I could be beaten or killed for who I was.
Speaker 1: And so I really felt strongly that I needed to
Speaker 1: find a way to fit in. I needed to find
Speaker 1: a way of being acceptable. My strategy was to assimilate,
Speaker 1: you know, into dominant culture and so really forsaking a
Speaker 1: lot of who I was. And it wasn't until I
Speaker 1: actually started practicing and studying the dharma that I understood that,
Speaker 1: you know, that that wasn't who I was, you know,
Speaker 1: like I was actually okay, you know, if you believe
Speaker 1: in sort of the Buddhist concept of Buddha nature, that
Speaker 1: you know, my innate goodness, wisdom, and compassion is inherent
Speaker 1: in me, as inherent in every being on the planet.
Speaker 1: And the more I was able to begin trusting and
Speaker 1: having faith and believing in that, I began to dismantle
Speaker 1: like all those old messages that you know, kept telling
Speaker 1: me I wasn't enough or I needed to prove myself constantly,
Speaker 1: or I needed to do more in order to be
Speaker 1: acceptable or feel a sense of belonging in the larger culture.
Speaker 1: And so both those wolves still live in me. And
Speaker 1: you know, it's like moments like this when I'm asked
Speaker 1: to be in an interview with a little one in
Speaker 1: me is like, no, we can't. We can't share who
Speaker 1: we are, Like they're not gonna like us if we're
Speaker 1: authentically who we are. And then the older part of
Speaker 1: me is basically what I've been teaching, you know, in
Speaker 1: the way I offer the dharma in terms of self acceptance,
Speaker 1: self love, self compassion, that we all are deserving of love, respect, dignity.
Speaker 1: And you know, the more I allow externals to determine
Speaker 1: my worth, I'm going to suffer. The more that I
Speaker 1: recognize that I'm already good inside and what anyone else
Speaker 1: thinks of me, or how society or culture thinks of me,
Speaker 1: that's really none of my business, you know, ultimately, So
Speaker 1: it really is making that distinction and beginning to just
Speaker 1: really believe that I'm okay. Everybody is okay. We just
Speaker 1: have these constructs that have been created to dominate, you know,
Speaker 1: over certain kinds of people, whether it be race, ethnicity,
Speaker 1: sexual orientation, abilities, class, etcetera. So the wolf that I
Speaker 1: choose to cultivate is my older one, you know, that
Speaker 1: has this clarity, that has his willingness to just cultivate
Speaker 1: continued acceptance of myself so that I can continue to
Speaker 1: accept others for who they are. We may disagree in
Speaker 1: terms of beliefs and things, but I always remember that
Speaker 1: we're all human beings and we all deserve compassion and
Speaker 1: love and respect, even if our beliefs differ from each other.
Speaker 1: YEA kind of jumping way ahead in your story to
Speaker 1: that point about what you just said there. Un if
Speaker 1: our beliefs are different, we can see the beauty in
Speaker 1: one another. In one of your dharma talks, you tell
Speaker 1: a really beautiful story about a woman named Mary from
Speaker 1: Texas who's a Trump's porter at a dharma talk that
Speaker 1: you went to. Can you share a little bit about that,
Speaker 1: just something you said, They're sort of just brought that
Speaker 1: to mind for me, and I thought it might be
Speaker 1: a lovely story to hear. Sure, So you're referring to
Speaker 1: a day long retreat that I did at the Dharma
Speaker 1: Ranch outside of Austin, Texas. And Mary happened to be
Speaker 1: neighbors with the folks that owned the retreat center, and
Speaker 1: she was just really curious about meditation and mindfulness. She's
Speaker 1: always you know, wanting to grow and learn, and you know,
Speaker 1: she identified as a Republican, and so I didn't really
Speaker 1: know this when we were, you know, in the retreat,
Speaker 1: but she was very engaged. He was very open and
Speaker 1: had just very lovely things to say, you know, after
Speaker 1: the retreat was over, and I just really appreciated, you know,
Speaker 1: her willingness just to explore, you know, something that she
Speaker 1: thought would be beneficial. And so to me, what's going
Speaker 1: to bridge our differences? It's just a willingness to want
Speaker 1: to understand each other, you know, to be in relationship
Speaker 1: to one another so that we can just get what informs,
Speaker 1: you know, what we believe and as long as we
Speaker 1: are able to do that in a way that's respectful
Speaker 1: and kind and generous. I think those bridges are possible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you talk about how she wrote you a really lovely
Speaker 1: note afterwards, saying like thank you for sharing about why
Speaker 1: you know gender pronouns are important to you, and you know,
Speaker 1: just a really beautiful sort of coming together. And what
Speaker 1: I love about that story is it shows an openness
Speaker 1: from both of you, right, That sort of connection doesn't
Speaker 1: happen if you're not both open because you do see
Speaker 1: the world very differently. Some of the things she believes
Speaker 1: in you would find like on no Way right and
Speaker 1: vice versa. And yet you are able to have a
Speaker 1: human connection across that. Yes, exactly exactly, And that's what
Speaker 1: to me is so important in terms of having discussions,
Speaker 1: whether it be around race, or sexual orientation or gender identity,
Speaker 1: is is really relationship. You know, when we're in relationship
Speaker 1: with each other, when we build trust, respect, love even
Speaker 1: with each other there, then we can hang in there together,
Speaker 1: you know, and be a bit more, if not accepting,
Speaker 1: tolerant to listen to what each other's opinions and beliefs are.
Speaker 1: And when we can discuss that and share what the
Speaker 1: impact is of these beliefs and opinions. You know, we
Speaker 1: can probably get somewhere then just beating each other over
Speaker 1: the head with our signs, you know, at protests or etcetera. So,
Speaker 1: so can I ask you some questions about your gender
Speaker 1: identity and how that sort of unfolded for you. So
Speaker 1: you talk about at a very early age, like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: you recognized your race wasn't right. You recognized pretty early
Speaker 1: on that you were attracted a little girls, not little boys.
Speaker 1: When did you start to recognize that your gender didn't
Speaker 1: feel right? And there weren't really words for it in
Speaker 1: the same way then that there are now. So I'm
Speaker 1: kind of curious how did that feel inside or how
Speaker 1: did you even think about it inside, maybe before you
Speaker 1: had the words to know what it was right exactly.
Speaker 1: So I loved dressing like I hated dresses. Every picture
Speaker 1: of me in a dress growing up, I'm crying, you know,
Speaker 1: it's really like painful. So I loved wearing pants. I
Speaker 1: love wearing boys clothes basically, just I just felt more
Speaker 1: like myself when I dressed that way than if I
Speaker 1: were in a dress. And then I played with a
Speaker 1: lot of boys toys. You know, I didn't play with
Speaker 1: dolls or dollhouses or barbies or you know, anything that
Speaker 1: would be gendered as female. I played with guns, I
Speaker 1: loved rough housing and you know, wrestling with other kids.
Speaker 1: I loved riding my bike, and you know, just a
Speaker 1: lot more that would be gendered as male in terms
Speaker 1: of play behavior. Yeah, I mean it was really clear,
Speaker 1: you know. And then when I became an adolescent and
Speaker 1: I started to enter puberty and developed, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, like this just doesn't feel right to me.
Speaker 1: And even you know, in terms of my sexual desires
Speaker 1: and who was attracted to, you know, it was not
Speaker 1: as a heterosexual person. It was definitely as a queer person.
Speaker 1: And so you know, there's just all these different things
Speaker 1: pointing in the direction of more masculine identified and I
Speaker 1: thought as a young child that, oh, I need to
Speaker 1: become a man when I grew up so that I
Speaker 1: can live my life the way I want to. Um,
Speaker 1: there was no option of being non binary or gender conforming,
Speaker 1: you know, back in the seventies and eighties that you know,
Speaker 1: language only sort of came up in the nineties, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And so I, um, I just kind of sat with it,
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't like being identified as a lesbian
Speaker 1: because I didn't feel like I don't really feel like
Speaker 1: a woman, so you know, being attracted to women as
Speaker 1: a woman didn't fit for me. So I've always felt
Speaker 1: like I've been on the outside of a lot of
Speaker 1: the you know, sort of whether it be a binary
Speaker 1: gay or lesbian, or male or female. You know, it
Speaker 1: was just like I was not one or the other.
Speaker 1: I was kind of a combination, you know of it all. Now,
Speaker 1: you came out to your parents at I think you
Speaker 1: said third eight that coming out was coming out as
Speaker 1: a lesbian, not as a transgender person. Is that correct, right,
Speaker 1: because it came out as gay to them. Yeah, tell
Speaker 1: us about that. There's a lot of beauty and humor
Speaker 1: kind of in that story of finally coming out to
Speaker 1: your parents. Yeah. So just to back up a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in a very conservative household.
Speaker 1: My parents were staunch Republicans, bush loving Fox News watching folks,
Speaker 1: and you know, it was just not the atmosphere that
Speaker 1: I felt safe enough to come out to them, you know,
Speaker 1: as a gay person, more or less a transgender person.
Speaker 1: So I feel like they were the last people that
Speaker 1: I came out to and so I decided that, you know,
Speaker 1: I would just wait and and just kind of see
Speaker 1: how it went unfold. But I came out to the
Speaker 1: rest of the world when I was twenty one, and
Speaker 1: I went to this human potential workshops called the Landmark Forum.
Speaker 1: And in the forum, you know, they really challenge you
Speaker 1: to uh do things that are holding you back in
Speaker 1: your life, you know. And so for me, it was
Speaker 1: coming out to my parents, and so I decided, okay,
Speaker 1: I will come out to them. So I called my
Speaker 1: mom one day and I said, Mom, I want to
Speaker 1: come over at something really important to tell you, and
Speaker 1: she said, okay, you know, come on over. And so
Speaker 1: I came over for lunch and my parents always had
Speaker 1: the TV on, and so I said, um, you know,
Speaker 1: can we turn Bonanza off for a second. And they're like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is really serious. We're turning the
Speaker 1: TV off. And so I said, you know, I've been
Speaker 1: wanting to tell you this for a really long time
Speaker 1: and and that's that I'm gay. And I start getting
Speaker 1: really emotional. I'm crying, and my mother says, you know,
Speaker 1: there's no need for you to cry. You know, we've
Speaker 1: we've been waiting for you to say something for the
Speaker 1: last eighteen years, and I was just dumbfounded. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, like they gave me no clue,
Speaker 1: although if you know me and you see me, it's
Speaker 1: like it's so obvious. You know. It was my own
Speaker 1: denial of that, and um, and they're like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're our child and we love you no matter what
Speaker 1: you know. And so I felt sad. I grieved the
Speaker 1: fact that I lost eighteen years of a relationship, a
Speaker 1: real relationship with my parents. But better late than never,
Speaker 1: and so you know, we continued. They paid for my
Speaker 1: partner in my wedding. You know, they totally supported us,
Speaker 1: they embraced my life partner, and yeah, it's in really
Speaker 1: sweet since then. And they came out with three pieces
Speaker 1: of advice for you, two of which I sort of understand. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, you need to get your finances in order. Okay,
Speaker 1: self defense class, all right, But the last one, you say,
Speaker 1: your dad pipes up. He hasn't said anything all along,
Speaker 1: and he says you have to change all the appliances
Speaker 1: in your kitchen. Can you elaborate on what the thinking
Speaker 1: was there where your appliance is not appropriate for a
Speaker 1: recently come out person. Was this something that he'd been
Speaker 1: meaning to get off his chest for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he was just trying to connect somehow and
Speaker 1: he just couldn't get anything. You know, he was already
Speaker 1: probably overwhelmed by the whole process that we were actually
Speaker 1: you know, connecting emotionally. And oh yeah, my father is
Speaker 1: a real like acts of service kind of guy in
Speaker 1: his love language, and so it's all all about the practical,
Speaker 1: you know. And I lived in my apartment for a
Speaker 1: while and the clients has actually needed to get replaced.
Speaker 1: And actually that's the first thing we did. The next
Speaker 1: thing I did was you know, get my finance as
Speaker 1: an order, and then years years later I took a
Speaker 1: self defense class. So the list is complete, and the
Speaker 1: list is complete. Yeah, So I want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about this feeling like you you know, fitting
Speaker 1: in and not fitting in and belonging and not belonging,
Speaker 1: because I think this is a universal experience, and certainly
Speaker 1: when you don't fit into the dominant culture, it's even
Speaker 1: more of an experience. Or another way to say that
Speaker 1: would be someone like me, a straight white man can
Speaker 1: still feel like I don't belong in lots of ways
Speaker 1: but I don't have the cultural sense of not belonging.
Speaker 1: And I thought you really brought this together in a
Speaker 1: beautiful way because you talked about going to a retreat.
Speaker 1: I think it was you, you know, first to retreat
Speaker 1: it Spirit Rock. That was lgbt Q retreat, right, and
Speaker 1: you get there and you think, all right, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be with my people, but you talk about how profoundly
Speaker 1: still you felt like you didn't belong Can you say
Speaker 1: a little bit more about that, because I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of power in that story. Yeah, thank you, Eric.
Speaker 1: It was you know. I mean, I think the conditioning
Speaker 1: in me to have that sense of not belonging anywhere
Speaker 1: even translated, you know, into like a community that I
Speaker 1: was actually a part of. And I noticed for the
Speaker 1: first three days on that retreat that I kept comparing
Speaker 1: myself to others, you know. And this retreat was at
Speaker 1: Spirit Rock out in California, so of course, you know,
Speaker 1: many of the queer folks there had tattoos and piercings
Speaker 1: and you know, are just so hip and cool, and
Speaker 1: I was just like East Coast. I have no tattoos,
Speaker 1: I have no piercings, you know, pretty straight laced quote
Speaker 1: unquote in a way, and I never have felt like
Speaker 1: enough of something, and so I would just be like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not like these folks. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not trends enough, I'm not queer enough. I'm not even
Speaker 1: a person of color enough, you know, being Asian in
Speaker 1: this culture, etcetera. And so I suffered with that story
Speaker 1: that I had believed, you know, all my life for
Speaker 1: like three days on that retreat, and I just sat
Speaker 1: with the pain of this feeling of separation. And so
Speaker 1: I just got this insight after sitting in practice, where
Speaker 1: why am I relying on something external to me to
Speaker 1: determine my belonging? You know, why am I waiting for
Speaker 1: this outside force to say, like Law, you're acceptable, you're lovable,
Speaker 1: you belong here. And it also it wasn't like anyone
Speaker 1: was saying to me, Law, you don't belong here. It
Speaker 1: was all in my head. And so I decided from
Speaker 1: then on that, you know, I can just claim my belonging.
Speaker 1: You know, it reminds me of the story of the
Speaker 1: Buddha when he got enlightened and Mara was taunting him
Speaker 1: and seducing him and be rating him. You know, basically,
Speaker 1: it was just his mind that he didn't deserve, you know,
Speaker 1: he's not worthy. And the Buddha put his hand on
Speaker 1: the round and basically said, with the earth is my witness,
Speaker 1: I belong, you know, I deserve to exist, and so
Speaker 1: I just really try to carry that, you know, with
Speaker 1: my older wolf, you know, to like no matter where
Speaker 1: I am, whether it be in an you know, dominic
Speaker 1: culture environment, and I'm the only one yet again that
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, bottom line, I do belong. I
Speaker 1: may not look like or have similar experiences to people here,
Speaker 1: but I belong, and we actually all belong, you know.
Speaker 1: And so just noticing my tendency to be on guard,
Speaker 1: and that's really a protective mechanism for myself, you know
Speaker 1: that I've developed for many years. And ultimately it's like
Speaker 1: I'm okay, you know, and I don't have to wait.
Speaker 1: I always talk about how like we all are like
Speaker 1: perfect cakes, and then you know, it's like anything outside
Speaker 1: of that is like extra nice butter cream is like wonderful.
Speaker 1: It just adds to the cake. It doesn't like make
Speaker 1: the cake better. It's just a nice little addition. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in that story, I was struck by you sort of
Speaker 1: saying like you. You're alternating between judging yourself judging them.
Speaker 1: And I think it's so interesting what groups due to
Speaker 1: a lot of us. You know, when you put us
Speaker 1: into a group where we don't know people, for so
Speaker 1: many of us, that's exactly what starts to happen. And
Speaker 1: I think that's why groups can be such powerful means
Speaker 1: of transformation, is if we can watch that process from
Speaker 1: a place of a little bit higher awareness, we go, oh,
Speaker 1: look what's happening, Like I'm judging you, and then five
Speaker 1: seconds later I'm judging myself. You suck, I suck, I
Speaker 1: mean like it. And it's just this whole dance that
Speaker 1: happens because I feel like I want to belong. We know,
Speaker 1: some of that is just what it is to be
Speaker 1: a human right. We're wired to want to belong. We're
Speaker 1: wired to suss out am I safe? Do I belong?
Speaker 1: You know? Um? But again, I think those things go
Speaker 1: so much deeper. For people who, even in every situation,
Speaker 1: feel like they don't belong, it must be so challenging.
Speaker 1: I'm going to circle back to your original answer about
Speaker 1: the wolves because we're kind of back in the same
Speaker 1: territory and I wanted to ask this question, which is you.
Speaker 1: You mentioned a younger wolf and older wolf, the younger
Speaker 1: wolf being the one that felt like she doesn't belong
Speaker 1: and she doesn't fit, and the older wolf being one
Speaker 1: that's a little bit wiser. And I guess I'm curious,
Speaker 1: do you feel like if you'd had the older wolf
Speaker 1: in your life as a younger wolf? Now I'm really
Speaker 1: torturing the metaphor here that it would have helped because
Speaker 1: you do a lot of work with teenagers, you know.
Speaker 1: That's sort of when like all this underground like I'm
Speaker 1: not sure I belong, like explodes to the surface. Do
Speaker 1: you think that it can really help us to have
Speaker 1: people who are a little further down the path sharing
Speaker 1: with us, Like, Hey, of course you feel like you
Speaker 1: don't belong. That's normal, that's natural, but you do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: most definitely, Eric, for sure. And I loved working with teens,
Speaker 1: you know. And it was interesting because when I first
Speaker 1: was approach to teach, you know, teens, I was asked like, ahh,
Speaker 1: you know, have you ever experience working with teens or
Speaker 1: anything like that, And I said, I have no experience
Speaker 1: working with teens, and I'm quite afraid of them, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's always a message for me to actually dive in,
Speaker 1: you know, and check this out. And a lot of
Speaker 1: it was that I hadn't healed my own inner team,
Speaker 1: the one that felt like they needed to hide and
Speaker 1: could be fully themselves and you know, go through the
Speaker 1: motions going to the prom when you know it's like,
Speaker 1: this is the last thing I want to be doing
Speaker 1: right now, um et cetera. And so working with teens,
Speaker 1: you know, and one of the first things I say
Speaker 1: with teens on retreats is like, let's just put out
Speaker 1: on the table that we're all a bit awkward. You know,
Speaker 1: we all just want to be loved, accepted, appreciated for
Speaker 1: who we are, all of who we are, and what
Speaker 1: we're going to create here is the world we want
Speaker 1: to be living in, which is like you can be
Speaker 1: all of who you are and field loved and respected
Speaker 1: and heard. And so it really is. And so there's
Speaker 1: so many, you know, teens that I taught during those
Speaker 1: years that have come out now as gender don conforming
Speaker 1: or non binary, and yeah, there's this possibility. And then
Speaker 1: to see someone who's actually happy, you know, that has
Speaker 1: like you know, really has a good life, and and
Speaker 1: that it's possible for them, and it wasn't easy, definitely
Speaker 1: growing up and to find my happiness inside myself and
Speaker 1: not rely on it coming from the outside. And at
Speaker 1: you know, such a young age, you know, from like
Speaker 1: thirteen to nineteen, like your approval or acceptance from peers
Speaker 1: is so important, you know, And so that sense of
Speaker 1: belonging is very much dependent on the external and what
Speaker 1: an older you know person can say, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true, and it shifts and changes as you get
Speaker 1: older and you become less and less dependent you know
Speaker 1: on that, at least I did. You are an unusual
Speaker 1: dharma teacher in that you generally don't write out dharma
Speaker 1: talks and really plan and prepare. You say that, despite
Speaker 1: being a person who's hyper organized in other aspects of
Speaker 1: your life, in this area, you tend to let things
Speaker 1: have um. You often start off with a song on ukulele.
Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about that idea of sort of just showing up and
Speaker 1: letting what emerges emerge. Is it courage that allows you
Speaker 1: to do that or is it fear that causes you
Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, So when I was in kindergarten,
Speaker 1: I gotta needs improvement and show and tell. And I
Speaker 1: felt like that just scarred me for so much of
Speaker 1: my life, you know, of this oh, like I can't
Speaker 1: be in front of a lot of people. And it's
Speaker 1: been a real, just deep practice eric of just continuing
Speaker 1: to show up because the last thing I ever wanted
Speaker 1: to be was a teacher. Like this was not in
Speaker 1: my trajectory of a career. It just happened, you know,
Speaker 1: in a way, and been given a lot of really
Speaker 1: wonderful opportunities by dear teachers of mine. Exposure, you know,
Speaker 1: to have these ways of you know, showing up in
Speaker 1: the world, and I just kind of take it on
Speaker 1: as a challenge as a practice for me to keep
Speaker 1: being myself and showing up as myself and so as
Speaker 1: hard as it is for me to sort of right,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm starting to do that a little bit more.
Speaker 1: But it's risky, you know, because I can show up
Speaker 1: in a retreat or a talk and not really know
Speaker 1: where it's gonna go or if it's going to make
Speaker 1: any sense sense or I think it also helps me
Speaker 1: just kind of trust myself more. You know, we live
Speaker 1: in a culture that like everything's got to be perfect,
Speaker 1: I always say I'm not podcast ready, you know, when
Speaker 1: it comes to like, you know, giving talks and things
Speaker 1: like that. So it really is that it's okay to
Speaker 1: be imperfect, it's okay to not know, it's okay to
Speaker 1: be real and authentic, and it's really resonated for people.
Speaker 1: It helps people relax a little bit, you know, because
Speaker 1: we live in such a striving culture and a culture
Speaker 1: of perfection, and you know, we can't be acceptable unless
Speaker 1: we're perfect. And that's how I lived. A lot of
Speaker 1: my life was trying to be perfect so I could
Speaker 1: be acceptable. And what I've found is, Wow, the more
Speaker 1: imperfect I am, the more acceptable I've actually become through
Speaker 1: you know, the spaces that I've taught. Right, it's a
Speaker 1: really interesting dance between preparation and not being prepared, you know,
Speaker 1: Like I prepare a lot for these conversations, but I
Speaker 1: do it primarily out of a deep respect for the
Speaker 1: people I'm going to talk to, and then I try
Speaker 1: and also let go of it to some degree and
Speaker 1: allow what's going to emerge emerge. And so it's a
Speaker 1: little bit of a dance to find what's the right
Speaker 1: way to do it. Now. Luckily, I've got Chris, my
Speaker 1: editor sitting on the back end making me sound coherent.
Speaker 1: Believe me, He's guys work cut out for him. Very often.
Speaker 1: You talk a lot about keeping your practice really simple,
Speaker 1: and you said that there are four questions as you
Speaker 1: go through life that you just sort of use to
Speaker 1: orient yourself back to the moment and being present and
Speaker 1: your practice. And I thought, maybe we could just talk
Speaker 1: through those four questions. You may not even remember them,
Speaker 1: given that you stand up and give dharma talks. Do
Speaker 1: you remember what the four are? Is your heart open
Speaker 1: or clothes? Are you feeling connected or disconnected? Are you
Speaker 1: suffering or are you free? And are you feeling empowered
Speaker 1: or disempowered? Yeah, So talk to me about how you
Speaker 1: use those conversations in your life and then how you
Speaker 1: use them to God what you do in the next moment.
Speaker 1: So for me, those questions help me determine in a
Speaker 1: concrete way if I'm suffering and when I notice that
Speaker 1: I'm suffering, so that would be in my heartest closed,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling disconnected, you know, I'm suffering and I'm feeling
Speaker 1: dis empowered. It's like this self compassion just immediately arises.
Speaker 1: Like I'll just say to myself. Oh my gosh, buddy,
Speaker 1: you're really you know, struggling right now, you know, And
Speaker 1: to like just really pause and just allow myself to
Speaker 1: have my feels about whatever it is I'm going through,
Speaker 1: whether I'm feeling sad or angry or disappointed or shut down.
Speaker 1: And so when I'm able to allow myself and this
Speaker 1: was not something that I was allowed to do as
Speaker 1: a child, you know, to have my feelings and understand
Speaker 1: what my feelings are and to work with them. I
Speaker 1: don't think many of us, you know, we're ever really
Speaker 1: taught that. And so when I'm able to tend to that,
Speaker 1: then I can like get Okay, I may be feeling
Speaker 1: this way, but I can cultivate a different way of being,
Speaker 1: one that actually will have me feeling more connected, having
Speaker 1: my heart open, feeling freer, and also empowered. My tendency
Speaker 1: in the past was to bypass it. You know, I'll say,
Speaker 1: like a lot, you're a dharma teacher, like you shouldn't
Speaker 1: be feeling these feelings, like you should know better, you
Speaker 1: know kind of thing. And so these questions really bring
Speaker 1: me back home to just getting like my heart is closed,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling disconnected. I'm not empowered and I'm suffering, So
Speaker 1: let me take care of myself right now, because I
Speaker 1: don't have the capacity to do the next thing until
Speaker 1: I tend to what's right here, you know, Like I said,
Speaker 1: we live in a culture where we just kind of
Speaker 1: bypass all that and then we react to things rather
Speaker 1: than consider and respond in a more skillful way. So
Speaker 1: I don't do it. You know, I'm definitely not skillful
Speaker 1: all the time. You can get my partner to tell
Speaker 1: you that, but she often questions like, are you sure
Speaker 1: you're a mindfulness teacher? And I'm like, and I love that,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's just it's just so humbling just
Speaker 1: to remember also human and and I'll and I'll fall
Speaker 1: off the wagon and I'll get back on the wagon,
Speaker 1: you know. And I can forgive myself and I can
Speaker 1: have compassion for myself, especially when I'm struggling and I'm
Speaker 1: not necessarily getting it right. Have you found that, you know,
Speaker 1: suddenly being asked to be a mindfulness teacher and agreeing
Speaker 1: to step into that role. You mentioned that those feelings
Speaker 1: of like, well, shouldn't I know better than this? Shouldn't
Speaker 1: I be doing better than this? Talk to me about
Speaker 1: how you work with that. You know, has that been
Speaker 1: something that has emerged more for you since you've stepped
Speaker 1: into that role, or has that sort of just always
Speaker 1: been part of your personality, which is like you shouldn't
Speaker 1: feel this way. Yeah, that's definitely been part of my personality,
Speaker 1: you know, because you know, if you're that way, then
Speaker 1: that's going to be more stuff that people can call
Speaker 1: you on that's not acceptable, right, And so I think
Speaker 1: it's helped me just become more human just kind of
Speaker 1: accepting my For for me, I thought being mindful was
Speaker 1: doing it right eight but actually being mindful is just
Speaker 1: know what you're doing. And so for me, that distinction
Speaker 1: was really helpful. And so it was like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: aware that this is what's happening, you know, versus like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get it right. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: I'm aware I'm going to eat that third doughnut and
Speaker 1: I know what it's gonna do. I'm very aware of that.
Speaker 1: You know, it may not be the most skillful thing,
Speaker 1: but I'm aware that I'm doing that versus like, you know,
Speaker 1: just gonna bypassing into always doing the right thing. I'm
Speaker 1: struck by in a lot of cases how you refer
Speaker 1: to your practice, how simple you keep it? Um you say,
Speaker 1: I keep my practice really simple by noticing my suffering
Speaker 1: and confirming it with kindness and compassion. You know, I
Speaker 1: approach my practice with as much courage, willingness and humility
Speaker 1: as I can, and I seek to find the dharma
Speaker 1: in everything, because it's everywhere all the time, you know.
Speaker 1: So I love that idea that reminds me of that
Speaker 1: last line of the Bodhi side for vows or the
Speaker 1: Great Vows for all They have different names, but the
Speaker 1: you know, dharma gates are countless. I've out awake to
Speaker 1: them right there everywhere. Yeah, exactly when I first came up,
Speaker 1: I just thought like, oh, sitting retreats all the time
Speaker 1: and just practicing every day and just being on my
Speaker 1: cushion was the practice. But there was such a disconnect
Speaker 1: from what was happening out in the world. But it
Speaker 1: was actually happening with my life. And so to me,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like taking the training wheels off, you know,
Speaker 1: when we go out into the world and we engage
Speaker 1: and you know, a big question that's going around in
Speaker 1: certain Domini culture dharma circles right now is like, well,
Speaker 1: what does social justice have to do with the dharma?
Speaker 1: It actually is the dharma because it's all about suffering.
Speaker 1: And so if that is making us feel uncomfortable bringing
Speaker 1: that into our meditation halls or on our cushions, then
Speaker 1: what are we actually doing on our cushions? And so
Speaker 1: it really is it's that cultivation of a heart, as
Speaker 1: my teacher air culpis a heart that's ready for anything,
Speaker 1: you know. And so it really is about bringing that
Speaker 1: in and recognizing and allowing ourselves to feel the depth
Speaker 1: of that's suffering so that we can act from a
Speaker 1: place of compassion to do something about it. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: one of my biggest interests and biggest questions that I
Speaker 1: look at, is, you know, how do we bridge this
Speaker 1: gap from what we sort of know and maybe even
Speaker 1: what we practice formally by sitting and meditating or whatever,
Speaker 1: to all the rest of the moments of our lives,
Speaker 1: you know? And to me, it seems that the biggest
Speaker 1: problem is broadly forgetting, you know, it's forgetting that there
Speaker 1: is a dharma, or forgetting that there's another way to respond,
Speaker 1: or forgetting that there's another layer or level of our
Speaker 1: heart and we just get in motion in life and
Speaker 1: just you know, habitual reactions and and you know more
Speaker 1: and more. I think that's the biggest question and the
Speaker 1: one that you know, I am always interested in is
Speaker 1: you know, how do people remember? You know? So I
Speaker 1: guess how is that evolved for you over time? How
Speaker 1: did you start to bring the Dharma into more of
Speaker 1: the moments of your life and how have you continued
Speaker 1: to do that? Yeah, I love what you say about
Speaker 1: like forgetting and remembering, you know. And what helps me
Speaker 1: remember is taking refuge, you know, taking refuge in the Buddha.
Speaker 1: And for me, it's not only the representation of the
Speaker 1: possibility of awakening, you know, in a lifetime, and it's
Speaker 1: also recognizing my own Buddha nature, So recognizing my own
Speaker 1: innate goodness, my own wisdom and compassion. Everything that we
Speaker 1: seem to be wanting to buy out there that that
Speaker 1: will bring us happiness is actually in here. And then
Speaker 1: taking refuge in the dharma, you know, just the teachings
Speaker 1: and practices of awareness and compassion, of wisdom and compassion
Speaker 1: to be able to see clearly, you know, what is
Speaker 1: actually happening, so that I can then discern how to
Speaker 1: engage it because I have no control over what's happening.
Speaker 1: I do have control over how I react or respond
Speaker 1: to what's happening, how I relate to what's happening, and
Speaker 1: then to take refuge in the sana. So even being
Speaker 1: around like minded, like heearted folks that you know will
Speaker 1: help me remember when I have you know, sort of
Speaker 1: straight off the path that you know, we kindly and
Speaker 1: gently like bring each other back. We're here to wake
Speaker 1: each other up as well as ram Das saying walk
Speaker 1: each other home. But you know, to me, they're almost
Speaker 1: the same thing, and it's been painful. You know. I've
Speaker 1: been part of dominan culture songas for a long time,
Speaker 1: and people don't want to be really uncomfortable in waking up.
Speaker 1: You know. That's why I have my song waking Up.
Speaker 1: It's hard to do is because it is uncomfortable, and
Speaker 1: to me, our practice is learning to be more comfortable
Speaker 1: being uncomfortable. You know. But so much of mindfulness is
Speaker 1: being sold as oh, free yourself from stress, or be
Speaker 1: more productive and more focused at work, etcetera. But what's
Speaker 1: missing is, yeah, we have to be with like what's
Speaker 1: hard and challenging so that we can see it clearly
Speaker 1: and address it skillfully, and so that's what really helps
Speaker 1: me remember to come back as we talk about identity,
Speaker 1: and we've been talking about identity here, whether it be
Speaker 1: gender identity, sexual identity, race identity. Right as we talk
Speaker 1: about these things, we have identity. And then as we
Speaker 1: move in deeper and deeper into the dharma, we start
Speaker 1: to encounter ideas that say, hey, there's no self actually here.
Speaker 1: You know, this quote unquote identity that you're so worried
Speaker 1: about either protecting or propping up doesn't actually exist. And
Speaker 1: I've heard you say that what is the importance of
Speaker 1: identity in this practice is one of the most important
Speaker 1: things that we've got to figure out if we're going
Speaker 1: to have a dharma that is truly inclusive. So can
Speaker 1: you share a little bit more about how both those
Speaker 1: things are true, how that identity is absolutely real and
Speaker 1: true and it's kind of also not and how do
Speaker 1: we work with that? Yeah? Thank you, Eric. You know,
Speaker 1: I think the teaching on no self is like one
Speaker 1: of the most confusing, you know, concepts in Buddhism, and
Speaker 1: especially with regards to social identities. You know. So to me,
Speaker 1: the absolute truth is that we're all one. The relative
Speaker 1: truth is that we don't treat each other that way.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, some folks based on their race are
Speaker 1: treated less than or their sexual orientation, that their gender
Speaker 1: identity or class, physical abilities, it's it's mental abilities, etcetera.
Speaker 1: You know, so when people say to me, you know, well,
Speaker 1: we're all one, law, why do you need to separate
Speaker 1: yourselves out as a you know, bipox SOGA or l
Speaker 1: g B t q A plus SONGA. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: whose one are we being? Elaborate on that? Whose one
Speaker 1: are we being? Yeah, so if you don't feel like
Speaker 1: it's important for folks who have felt marginalized, colonized, or pressed,
Speaker 1: you know, ancestrally historically. You know, right now in this lifetime,
Speaker 1: we can't be all one if they're feeling not safe
Speaker 1: or not seen or not respected in these dominant culture spaces.
Speaker 1: You know, that's not inclusion. You know. I have this
Speaker 1: analogy of like a dominant culture dinner party where they
Speaker 1: want to invite some new guests to the dinner and
Speaker 1: so they're like, the new guests are like, oh, we'd
Speaker 1: love to come. We'd love to bring our food and
Speaker 1: music because we like to dance after we eat, and
Speaker 1: the dominant culture host is no. We already order the food,
Speaker 1: you know, we the menu is set. We just need
Speaker 1: you to sit at the table. That's not inclusion, that's assimilation.
Speaker 1: Like we want you here, but we want you here
Speaker 1: on our terms, you know, versus we want you here
Speaker 1: and we want you to bring the richness of who
Speaker 1: you are to us so that we can be here
Speaker 1: together and learn from each other. There's a real difference.
Speaker 1: And so yes, that's the absolute truth that we're definitely
Speaker 1: aspiring towards. But it is not at all as we
Speaker 1: are seeing right now, you know, the way that we
Speaker 1: treat each other. I'm curious on a practical level, how
Speaker 1: we start to bring these things together. As someone who's
Speaker 1: interested in how communities form and come together. You know,
Speaker 1: if you've got a dominant culture, so you've got a
Speaker 1: saana that's let's say, nine percent white people, and you
Speaker 1: have you know, a few people who don't quite fit that,
Speaker 1: who kind of fit in, and again are sort of
Speaker 1: asked to assimilate. You don't have diversity there, right If,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you have a sanga that is
Speaker 1: oriented towards L G B, t Q. Right now, you've
Speaker 1: got two songas, right, You've got one over here and
Speaker 1: one over here, and I'm kind of curious, is it
Speaker 1: even important that we move towards a sana in which
Speaker 1: it's everyone seen for who they are and valued for
Speaker 1: who they are. How have you seen that actually work
Speaker 1: well in real life or have you It's slow, it's
Speaker 1: really slow, especially I think, you know, with say the
Speaker 1: Bipox sanga. You know, in my community, it's like it's
Speaker 1: very few people that are part of that sana joined
Speaker 1: the larger dominant culture song And a lot of it
Speaker 1: is that people don't feel safe, they don't feel held.
Speaker 1: You know, things will be said and you know, often
Speaker 1: called microaggressions, etcetera, where it's like I don't even call
Speaker 1: them microaggressions anymore because they're still harmful, you know, and
Speaker 1: make microaggressions makes like, oh, it's so tiny, it shouldn't
Speaker 1: really matter, but it does. It has huge impact. And
Speaker 1: so I do believe it's important for everybody to come together,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that we're necessarily there yet. I
Speaker 1: think that the dominant culture has a lot of work
Speaker 1: to do on themselves, around their understanding of themselves, you know,
Speaker 1: especially as white people in a white supremacist you know,
Speaker 1: white privileged culture and then to then you know, understanding
Speaker 1: yourself and then understanding the impact of you know, the
Speaker 1: systems and the institutions that perpetuate you know, this harm,
Speaker 1: this marginalization, this oppression of people that aren't white or
Speaker 1: of a dominant culture identity. So you know, I have
Speaker 1: this phrase that I've I've coined that's racial is glacial like.
Speaker 1: It takes a really long time. It takes a really
Speaker 1: long time, even in spiritual communities where you would think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: everyone's got good intention, big hearts, etcetera. But we're still
Speaker 1: human beings who are deeply conditioned by the culture. And
Speaker 1: again going back to you know, being called out on
Speaker 1: things that feels uncomfortable, and if people aren't will to
Speaker 1: to be humble and willing to be uncomfortable and being
Speaker 1: called in or called out whatever you want to use,
Speaker 1: whatever term you want to use, it makes it really hard.
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't make it safe for folks like
Speaker 1: myself to want to engage. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: work to be done. Is it appropriate for people who
Speaker 1: are in the dominant culture to want to be involved
Speaker 1: in and attend say a bipox songa or is that
Speaker 1: not the right approach, not the right place, not a
Speaker 1: place that I would belong. I mean, because what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to find is we certainly know that exposure to
Speaker 1: each other increases understanding, increases knowledge, increases tolerance. So this
Speaker 1: is just somebody who recognizes that I am part of
Speaker 1: the dominant culture in all the ways right, white male
Speaker 1: cis gendered, and still trying to say, all right, where
Speaker 1: do I and how do I advocate for fairer and
Speaker 1: more equitable places where where I exist. Yeah, definitely have
Speaker 1: gotten a lot of you know, questions from Domini culture
Speaker 1: folks saying, oh, you know, can I just join your
Speaker 1: BIPOC sanga, you know, because I want to learn, you know,
Speaker 1: like how to engage in how to be And it's
Speaker 1: and it's not appropriate because that space is a refuge
Speaker 1: and a safe space for BIPOC folks to be able
Speaker 1: to like not have to worry about you know, you know,
Speaker 1: like you know, if there's a white person in the room,
Speaker 1: like you do this, like a lot of people do it.
Speaker 1: Like I have to deal with those folks in my
Speaker 1: job like all the time. And you know, here's a
Speaker 1: really like safe space that actually inspires rejuvenates resources people
Speaker 1: so that we can go out into the world. And
Speaker 1: so to be a good ally would be to be
Speaker 1: wanted to, you know, do your own work, work with
Speaker 1: your own people. Because we started doing these um week
Speaker 1: long retreats, we would have you know, the sits in
Speaker 1: the big hall, and then we would have once a
Speaker 1: day an affinity sit for l g B, t q
Speaker 1: I plus folks, and every other day for the BIPOC folks.
Speaker 1: And people were like, why did they have to like
Speaker 1: separate themselves out. Well, the thing about it is is
Speaker 1: the white folks don't realize when they're in the big
Speaker 1: meditation hall they're one big affinity group and all we're
Speaker 1: doing in the other room, it's just being together. Like
Speaker 1: you're being together in that room. We're not talking about revolution,
Speaker 1: you know, or overthrown you're not. Yeah, we're just sitting
Speaker 1: just like you. But there's something about you know, sitting
Speaker 1: together that just allows us to go deeper because we're
Speaker 1: not necessarily being activated by you know, this conditioning that
Speaker 1: we have, you know, when we're wearing a mixed group.
Speaker 1: So it is like a little bit of a refuge
Speaker 1: to kind of resource ourselves so that we can come
Speaker 1: and engage, you know, in the bigger group. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it really is. And I think sometimes some dominic culture
Speaker 1: folks kind of want to just kind of bypass it,
Speaker 1: like why can't we just all just be one together,
Speaker 1: like just all just kind of mix, and it can
Speaker 1: get pretty messy, you know, Um, if if there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of consciousness, if there's not a lot of
Speaker 1: like willingness just to deeply listen or no, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're someone who is entitled to take up a
Speaker 1: lot of space or has always been able to take
Speaker 1: up a lot of space, you know, to make space
Speaker 1: for others, you know, and have their voices included. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of practices that need to be in
Speaker 1: place in order to feel that sense of equity, that
Speaker 1: sense of belonging, that sense of true you know, welcome
Speaker 1: and inclusion. Yeah. Yeah, I like, I guess I should
Speaker 1: say I don't like it because I wish it wasn't
Speaker 1: that way. But racial is glacial speaks to something that
Speaker 1: I feel deeply, which is just this like an impatience
Speaker 1: with like let's get things better, you know, and yet
Speaker 1: sometimes staring at the problem and being like, wow, this
Speaker 1: feels colossal colossally colossal, glacial. Yeah, it's so buried in
Speaker 1: our systems, in our institutions. You know, laws are made
Speaker 1: to oppress people. You talk about jerrymandering and all those.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are things that are actively laws being
Speaker 1: passed to like oppress people, you know, and people don't
Speaker 1: get that. You know, maybe they do or maybe they don't,
Speaker 1: but that's what's happening. That's the result of those actions.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what it's going to take, but
Speaker 1: it's going to take a long time whatever it is. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it feels challenging, particularly when you know, you
Speaker 1: do have what I think is a reasonable amount of
Speaker 1: the dominant culture that at least is open to things changing.
Speaker 1: But then you know, it appears that a significant portion
Speaker 1: is like you said, like Jereman during everything but rolling
Speaker 1: back voting rights and you and it just feels sort
Speaker 1: of like, oh boy, it's what this country was founded on.
Speaker 1: It was racism. I don't want to go too deep
Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole, because we could be here forever.
Speaker 1: I want to actually pivot a little bit. Not that
Speaker 1: I'm disagreeing with what you said that because I was
Speaker 1: actually about to ask a question about whether our most
Speaker 1: countries not that way. But I want to change direction
Speaker 1: just a little bit, which is something that you said
Speaker 1: which is related, and I want to understand a little
Speaker 1: bit more. You said being open to however, life is unfolding,
Speaker 1: and being willing to have my heart broken open over
Speaker 1: and over again in order to break my own habitual condition.
Speaker 1: And as my practice, this approach for me is energizing
Speaker 1: and not draining. And believe me, I've been drained. I'm
Speaker 1: tying this to where we just were, which is when
Speaker 1: we look at some of these things, what we can
Speaker 1: feel is very drained. And I'm curious, as you said,
Speaker 1: like I find this approach energizing. Talk to me about
Speaker 1: how what I just read of yours applies to what
Speaker 1: you and I were just talking about a couple of
Speaker 1: minutes ago, and and does it or am I taking
Speaker 1: it out of context? It is energizing when I'm resourced. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, in the past month, I've had some really
Speaker 1: really painful, draining conversations with fellow teachers in my own
Speaker 1: community and and just really getting like, oh, wow, we
Speaker 1: maybe have moved a centimeter or so in teen years.
Speaker 1: And you know, I even joked that you know, I'm
Speaker 1: so surprised that I don't have a concussion from banging
Speaker 1: my head against the wall trying to explain and this
Speaker 1: stuff to people over these years. But when I find
Speaker 1: I'm with folks that really want to understand and really
Speaker 1: want to grow and and have the humility to really
Speaker 1: deeply listen and take responsibility for their own ignorance or
Speaker 1: their own lack of consciousness, then I'm happy to engage,
Speaker 1: like I'm more than willing, you know. But when there
Speaker 1: is pushback or defensiveness, you know, it's a lot of
Speaker 1: emotional labor for someone like to engage in those kinds
Speaker 1: of conversations. And so I've been much better at saying, like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I just can't do it. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll call on an ally to to speak up, or
Speaker 1: I'll give you some links and then you can do
Speaker 1: some research to you know, educate yourself. But I really
Speaker 1: need to conserve my own energy, you know, because this
Speaker 1: is just my life. I mean, this is just constant,
Speaker 1: you know, for me, and it's not just this thing
Speaker 1: I'm going to dabble into because you know, I'm feeling guilty, right,
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to do something right now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is just my existence. I wrestle with that having
Speaker 1: you on and asking you these questions. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: do it from a place of hopefully growth and healing
Speaker 1: and helping others. And I recognize like I'm putting you
Speaker 1: into a particular role that sometimes I feel uncomfortable with. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I I think for me, you know, it's
Speaker 1: part of my own practice, you know, doing this work
Speaker 1: d E I a work for your audience, diversity, equity, inclusion,
Speaker 1: accessibility work for the last sixteen years. Is it's really
Speaker 1: deep in my practice around patients, tolerance, acceptance, compassion, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's really pushed me, you know in ways that
Speaker 1: I never imagine. It's opened my heart in ways that
Speaker 1: I never imagined. I mean, that's the thing. It's like
Speaker 1: I don't want any of this stuff to shut my
Speaker 1: heart down. Like my aspiration is to keep my heart
Speaker 1: open as possible. It's on a dimmerse, which you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like I'm going to talk to this
Speaker 1: person and it's going to be down to open versus
Speaker 1: like oh I'm hanging out with my pups. It will
Speaker 1: be open so um, but you know it's it's uh
Speaker 1: it's work that's necessary. It's super important, you know, like
Speaker 1: all of our lives depend on it. And um, a
Speaker 1: friend of mine that I just made was on a
Speaker 1: panel this past week and and she said, you know,
Speaker 1: racism will not stop until white people end it, and
Speaker 1: so it really is not necessarily our job. But I
Speaker 1: feel like because I have the capacity, I think that
Speaker 1: was the blessing and maybe hindrance of being assimilated growing up.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like I can hang in these spaces
Speaker 1: and dominant culture spaces with a little bit more ease
Speaker 1: than some of my you know, maybe BIPOC friends, and
Speaker 1: so if I can you know, be a bridge, or
Speaker 1: if a few white folks wake up a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, just being in my presence and in conversation,
Speaker 1: then I'm happy. You know, it's something that I can give.
Speaker 1: I love that analogy of heart open versus closed on
Speaker 1: a dimmer switch. I love that idea. And I also
Speaker 1: loved where you talked about the non binary nature of
Speaker 1: gender gives you that ability to float in between things
Speaker 1: get you know, kind of makes you a middle way expert.
Speaker 1: I love that I may have put slight words in
Speaker 1: your mouth there, but I think that's close to what
Speaker 1: you were saying. And I think that dimmer switch is
Speaker 1: a beautiful example of that. You know, like is my
Speaker 1: heart open or closed? Just pretty binary, noticing that it's
Speaker 1: seventy open. Okay, that's pretty good. You know, that's all right.
Speaker 1: But where I wanted to end was talking about Casey,
Speaker 1: your dog, because I think you and I have had
Speaker 1: a very similar experience, which is that you talk about Casey,
Speaker 1: which is a dog you only had for four months
Speaker 1: who really opened your heart. And I came to dogs
Speaker 1: later in life, did not like them most of my life.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's would be where you were.
Speaker 1: I was a vehement anti dog person and had a
Speaker 1: dog that opened my heart. But share a little bit
Speaker 1: about Casey and in what ways that animal was able
Speaker 1: to open your heart in ways that humans weren't. Thank
Speaker 1: you for that, Eric, Yeah, I'm the same as you.
Speaker 1: I used to think that um people had pets because
Speaker 1: they didn't want to deal with other people. That might
Speaker 1: be true, it probably is. And so you know, we
Speaker 1: adopted Casey from my parents when my mom got diagnosed
Speaker 1: with the terminal brain tumor, and you know, it was
Speaker 1: just like just little being Casey was a Norwich Terrier,
Speaker 1: which is like a really small, compact, little spunky, little dog.
Speaker 1: And um, she was about twelve when we adopted her,
Speaker 1: and she just was my companion, you know, during my
Speaker 1: mom's last year of life. And you know, she was
Speaker 1: just always there, just lay beside me when I would cry,
Speaker 1: and there was just something about like this silent little being,
Speaker 1: you know, just the presence of that that unconditional love.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes human love can be so conditional, but
Speaker 1: with a dog, with an animal, it was my first
Speaker 1: taste of that kind of unconditional love. And so we've
Speaker 1: had three more dogs since then, and it's pure joy.
Speaker 1: Definitely a practice of patients and acceptance and messiness which
Speaker 1: I don't tolerate very well. So it's also a good
Speaker 1: practice in confronting my my need for order in my life.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Casey was truly, um, a real gift of
Speaker 1: solely unexpected and and that's so much of like how
Speaker 1: I just I just trust life, you know, like life
Speaker 1: will bring me what I need, the people, the animals,
Speaker 1: the experiences, and I just flow with it, you know
Speaker 1: as best I can. Yeah, mine was Sadie, the one
Speaker 1: who opened my heart and I know that Tara Brock
Speaker 1: is a teacher you've worked closely with. Was a spitting image,
Speaker 1: like literally twins of her. When Tara and I talked
Speaker 1: on the interview, we we we we shared photos, were like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like it's just uncanny, but yeah, Sadie's
Speaker 1: the one who opened my heart. And I often feel
Speaker 1: like it just feels like the biggest gift that, like,
Speaker 1: somewhere near midlife, I discovered this whole species of creatures
Speaker 1: that I had no appreciation for that I'm now like
Speaker 1: as one of the greatest joys of my life. I
Speaker 1: just feel so so fortunate in that regard. It's been
Speaker 1: such a lovely thing. Well, law thank you so much
Speaker 1: for taking the time to come on the show. It
Speaker 1: has been a real pleasure to have you on, and
Speaker 1: really grateful that we got to spend this time together. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you, Eric, thank you for having me. It's been fun.
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