1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Pulled up your number two 3 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: pencils because we have one for you, with great thanks 4 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: to our super producer, Uh, mister Max Unleaded Williams. 5 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 2: I hope you are unleaded Max, get the leadout, Williams. 6 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: There we go, and I made a straight corn No, 7 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: I don't understand the Yeah. 8 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is none other than mister Noel Brown. Noel, 9 00:00:58,600 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: how are you doing. 10 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: I'm pretty good? Yeah, man, I'm excited to get the 11 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: let out. Remember when they used to that was like, 12 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 2: I think it was sort of a universal radio thing 13 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: for like a block of led Zeppelin. They just called 14 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: it get the It might have been a local, regional 15 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: thing for me. But for some reason it seems sort 16 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: of like morning shows with someone called the Goots. As 17 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: you like to say, Ben. It just seems like an 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 2: old school radio thing, like we're gonna get the let 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: out this hour nine raw. They do call me Ben Bullen. 20 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 2: The rumors are true, rumors about you forget let me Ad. 21 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,639 Speaker 1: I think it's Fleetwood met or Flee or Flee as well. 22 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: We're not gonna flee from this when I am a 23 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: research associate for this episode. Yeah, Noel, you and I 24 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: have been talking about this offline because we used to 25 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: hang out a lot off air, folks were We are 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: phenomenally obsessed with this concept. It is a topic that's 27 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: gonna pop up in a darker form on our sister 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: show Stuff. They don't want you to know, you see, 29 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians. For centuries upon centuries, some of the 30 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: smartest historians and all of human experience have debated what 31 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: exactly led to the fall of the Roman Empire. It's 32 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: one of the greatest civilizations in all known history? 33 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: What led to it? Ben? 34 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: Okay, you caught Boiler, It's right there, you caught me. 35 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 3: You caught the bad joke. Drama is going to be 36 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 3: working overtime in this episode. 37 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: It's a feature, not a bug. Max so uh nol uh. 38 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: You and I remember the Roman Empire? Yeah, like it 39 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: was only yesterday. 40 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: It's almost as those histories repeating itself right now in 41 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: the world we find ourselves in. I'm not sure we 42 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: can blame lead for that one though. Yeah, that's true, 43 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: that's true. 44 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: We'll have to see what future Ridiculous historians say, we 45 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: know it is impossible to overestimate just how much of 46 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: an impact this empire made on the rest of the 47 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: world up to the present day. Nol Uh, We've got 48 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: to joke in here for you, bro. What factors contributed 49 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: to the fall of the Roman Empire as far as 50 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: mainstream history is concerned? 51 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: Oh, Ben, are you talking about my favorite food? What 52 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: is your favorite food? Cosmic gumbo of course. Oh yeah, 53 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: we used to say that on set. We used to 54 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: say it's a cosmic gumbo. It's a real cosmic gumbo. 55 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: Shout out to Santa Claus and his acting career. Also 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: shout out and rip to Biff Whiff. I think you 57 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: should leave fame that the gentleman who portrayed Santa and 58 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: that she passed away last year and really seemed like 59 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: a lovely dude as a human person and obviously a 60 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: delight in various characters on the Tim Robinson vehicle. I 61 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: think Shirt brother Rip Shirt Brothers. Yeah. Oh, with that 62 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: amazing song. I'm sorry not to get off the rails 63 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: too hard. But one thing I think we both love 64 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: about that show is that it has emotional gravitas like 65 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: there are there are sketches quote unquote in it that 66 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: like pull at your heartstrings and that is one with 67 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: our buddy Biffwiff. I used to be a p I 68 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: know you were there, slapstakes, you were there. What is it? 69 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 2: Was it a sloppy state? But what's the song like 70 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: dangerous Night? Dangerous Nights? Thank you very much? Which is 71 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: Vampire Weekend by the way, I think you knew that. 72 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: But that band there's a lot of hidden Easter Egg 73 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: band performances in there. And the Shirt Brothers song equally 74 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: emotionally devastating is the band Turnstile? That's right? 75 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: What if there are now rules which people started asking 76 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: at the fall of the Roman Empire? Generally, yeah, yeah, yeah, generally, 77 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: I'm not proud of it, but I'm not. 78 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: Regret And if there was an award for segues, you 79 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 2: would at least be on the shortlist to get it. 80 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. I love it, middle of it easily, Okay, 81 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm here in top fifteen, and I appreciate you. Generally. 82 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: The boffins in the Ivory Towers of History will tell 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: you there was again an unpleasant cosmic gumbo of a 84 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: lot of different factors that led to the decline of 85 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire military losses against what they called barbarians, 86 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: which is also kind of a dumb thing. Do we 87 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: want to be etymology nerds about barbarians? 88 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: Do we want to be retroactively? I think we are. 89 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: I think we are, and we should lean into it 90 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: this very moment. 91 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: So Barbarian was a term aside from Conan the barbarian, 92 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: but Barbarian was a term where in the Roman Empire 93 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: was exercising prejudice against people who spoke different languages. Barbar 94 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: was like their blah blah bay bar So they were 95 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: calling the elephant blablarians. 96 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha? Are the Are these the individuals 97 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: that occupied the Barbary coast? Or is that different? 98 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: Well, there were blah blah about. 99 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 2: It, Okay, bob blah blahs blah blah, yes, yes yeah. 100 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: Uh. People selling people to people? 101 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: Uh oh, my grandfather started this company with one rickety 102 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: slave ship and a motto, people selling people to people. 103 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 2: We're just hot on the classic comedy at the top 104 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: of this show, Thursday is our Friday. We're also exhibiting 105 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: some big Thursday energy and to your point, Pan, Thursday 106 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 2: is indeed our Friday. Yeah. 107 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: Other people will tell you that political corruption contributed to 108 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: the fall of the Roman Empire, economic woes, internal strife, 109 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: all the hits, you know, all the good ones, all 110 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: the slow jazz, all the usual suspects. But what if 111 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: there was another factor? And Noel, you and I have 112 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: been talking about this for more than five years now. 113 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 1: I think we've been obsessed with this. 114 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Ben, And as you mentioned on our 115 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: sister show, Stuff that, I want you to know, it's 116 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: it's it's absolutely red meat. But we do love a crossover, Ben, 117 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: and this is absolutely one of the ones that fits 118 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: right in the sweet spot of then diagram between our 119 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: two shows. Sorry, I had to say that so emphatically. 120 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: I just felt very strongly about it. 121 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: I liked it. 122 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: I liked it. 123 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: When you do the news voice, what if lead exposure, 124 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,119 Speaker 1: the exposure to the chemical lead number eighty two pb 125 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: on the periodic table, what if that was part of 126 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: the fall of the Roman Empire. As ridiculous as it sounds, 127 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: there is a surprising amount of heft to this argument. So, 128 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: first off, as we're getting into this, Noel, and then 129 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: you Max, what do we think of as Americans when 130 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: we hear the were lead. When you hear lead, what's 131 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: the first image that pops in your mind? 132 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: Get the let out block a led zeppelin? Obviously as 133 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: previously mentioned, No, it's true. I mean we think maybe 134 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: unleaded gasoline. The fact that they still have to say 135 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 2: that it's always fun. I'm so irritated by that one. 136 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: Pretty funny. 137 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, we'll get back to that with Max. 138 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: What about you? 139 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: What do you think? 140 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 3: I mean, this is dark, but this is honestly where 141 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: I go as a Michigan I think of Flint, Michigan. 142 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: You think of Flint Michigan pipes. Yea, those pipes, those pipes. Uh, 143 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: some of us maybe thinking of old school number two pencils, 144 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. They contained graphite and clay, they never actually 145 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: contained lead. That's something a bunch of people fell for. 146 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: But I love what you're pointing out there and old, 147 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: the idea of unleaded gas And I forgot to tell you, dude, 148 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: I was on an old plane recently, a plane that 149 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: was so. 150 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: Old that still had ashtrays on the arm. 151 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: I had ashtrays in the bathroom. My guy and little 152 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: flippy boys, Yeah, little flippy boys right under the sign 153 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: that says non smoking flight, and I am still mystified 154 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: by America's love of unnecessary signage, you know, unleted gas 155 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: for real. Now in twenty twenty six, drug free school zone, 156 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: Where is the cool school? 157 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: Ben? You say that, but you know there's somebody who's 158 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: gonna rip a dart on a flight if it weren't 159 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: for that flashing sign. I bet you're right. 160 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, we we. 161 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: Rely on signage here in the United States because we're 162 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: not very smart. 163 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 1: Also a largely because of lead boys. 164 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: Nice. 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: Also a lot of our a lot of our road 166 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: signage is super neggy, it's super uh, it's super mad 167 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: at you and authoritarian. The nicest road sign I've ever 168 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: seen is keep going, dude. 169 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: I love that. Where you'll live, I mean, if you 170 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: go to Germany, for example, the crosswalk signs are these 171 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: lovely little fellas called the Amphlmann. You know, they're not 172 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: aggressive at all. They're like little cartoon characters just going 173 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: for a stroll. There you are, and you can join 174 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: them too. Now, lead is still used in some fuel 175 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: products today, mainly small engine planes here in the States. 176 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 2: But you're you're not going to run into it at 177 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 2: your local gas station. You'll just see a bunch of 178 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: signs that say unleaded gas, and if you ask them 179 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 2: to sell you gas with lead in it because you're 180 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 2: a weird person or you've landed your plane on the 181 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 2: local street, you may be surprised that they do not 182 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 2: indeed sell leaded gasoline. Because the US finally, like so 183 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: many other empires, the US fell in love with lead 184 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: and then they finally figured out that stuff will kill you. 185 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember while back we're doing the series on 186 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: inventors who die by their own inventions, and we mentioned 187 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 2: this guy named Tommy. How could I forget Thomas Midgeley Junior? 188 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: Big reason for the lead craze. Yeah, as we mentioned 189 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: in that previous episode, our pale old Tommy figured out 190 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: that the compound tetra ethyl lad could be added to 191 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: gasoline in order to prevent that knock knock knocking on 192 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: Heaven's door coming from your automobiles engine. Though this ended up, 193 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: of course, having terrible consequences for the environment. He did, however, 194 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: receive numerous medals for her his work as a chemical 195 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: company executive and researcher. But it wasn't until much much 196 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: later the public finally figured out that maybe uh, these 197 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: were these awards were not warranted. Yeah, did you get 198 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 2: some damage? Yeah? 199 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: Here ended the side notes, fellow ridiculous historians. Now, aside 200 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: from gas, flint, Michigan, and pencils. 201 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 4: Led h what is it good for? Absolutely some things, 202 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 4: several things. Thanks, and let's please not forget lad Zeppelin. Guys, 203 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 4: let's please not forget that Zepplin. It is a legitimate element. 204 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 4: It's on the table with all the elements. Number eighty 205 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 4: two on the periodic table. What's the abbreviation PB. That's 206 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 4: so it's one of. 207 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: Those weird ones that related to Latin or something, right, Yeah, 208 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 2: number eighty two on the periodic table with a bullet 209 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: on weight basis. Lead has nearly the same abundance in 210 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: Earth's crust as another popular element, maybe more popular in 211 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 2: the past, much like its weight cousin ten. You don't 212 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 2: see ten nearly as much as we used to. It 213 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: used to be super super abundant in terms of manufacturing 214 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: and stuff. So, in addition to having a low melting point, 215 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: being plentiful and extremely malleable, it is also easy to 216 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 2: extract from the ground. 217 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which means that human beings have been aware 218 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: of lead and have been working lead for a long 219 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: long time. You might be as surprised as we were, folks, 220 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: to learn that lead is even mentioned in the Bible, 221 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: not once, but multiple times. 222 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 2: What was the last thing that we dropped that was 223 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: mentioned in the Bible that was a little unexpected? It 224 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: came up recently. It's okay if you don't remember. All 225 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: I remember is that this is the second time it's 226 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: come up in a week or two. We'll figure that 227 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 2: out and get right back to you, folks, or hey, 228 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: let us know to our jobs for us. The Babylonians 229 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: used lead as plating material for recording inscriptions, you know literally, yeah, 230 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: like a like a medium for for like thanks Ben, Yeah, 231 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: the great great sound cue. The Romans used it for 232 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: all kinds of stuff. 233 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 234 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 235 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: They must add a billy maze or some very persuasive character, 236 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: because you know, if you picture the infomercial, it's it's like, Hi, 237 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm Benanitis and Lowell Nikas and Maxima Gadish, Maxima Gadish. 238 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: All right, we'll keep it. 239 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: We're excited to talk to you ancient Rome about a 240 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: miracle substance. We call it lead. You can use it 241 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: in tablets, you can use it in pipes, you can 242 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: make coins. 243 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,119 Speaker 2: It ain't like we don't have somewhat of an equivalent 244 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: in modern history with asbestos. 245 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,359 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, that's a great observation. 246 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: It was sold as like a miracle substance that could 247 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: be used for all kinds of stuff, to keep it 248 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: from you know, catching on fire. 249 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: Kind of similar to plastic. We're still rocking that one, 250 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: shout out bodies. Yeah, they we know that. People even 251 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: used a derivative of lead, what they called white lead, 252 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: as a decorative pigment. They lead was in everything in 253 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: ancient Rome. Lead was treated the way people treat plastic today, 254 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: or as bestis as you said, through the earlier part 255 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. And the thing is, it's a 256 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: devil's bargain. It's a pyrrhic victory because in addition to 257 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: being very very useful, lead is also cartoonishly toxic and 258 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: is so bad for you. It is bad for everyone. 259 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: It's not like gluten where some people are fine with it. 260 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: It is bad for every single living thing. 261 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: Full stop. Lead exposure can cause serious health issues, particularly 262 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: in small children when exposed to it at a young age, 263 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: causing developmental delays, learning difficulties or disabilities, damage to the 264 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: brain and the nervous system. Those, of course can you 265 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: happen to anybody, but specifically in those very very important 266 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: formative years. They can have very specific issues when young 267 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: people are exposed to it. 268 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, even low levels of lead can harm you. 269 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: We do know that the ancient Romans appeared to be 270 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: aware of lead poisoning, at least by the time of 271 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: Augustus Caesar, not Julius Caesar, the other one. We know 272 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: that physicians would literally write stuff like lead makes the 273 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: mind give way, not as a pretty cool slogan, yeah, 274 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: not as a compli of it though that's way clarified. 275 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: No, it's true. Still, they didn't really have any particularly 276 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: good notion of the long term ramifications. Ben you point 277 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: out in the dock here that lead is a bit 278 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: of an imposter because it's so similar to calcium that 279 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: human cells take it on instead of calcium, which is 280 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: of course needed to fortify the bones and other positive 281 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: health effects. So a perfect recipe for disaster there, And 282 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: it didn't take too long before a big old chunk 283 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: of the Roman population started to take on massive amounts 284 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: of lead into their bodies. 285 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: They sure did no. This leads us to the Grand theory, 286 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: the concept that lead exposure and poisoning contributed to the 287 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: fall of the Roman Empire. So the idea of this 288 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: poisoning is actually pretty old. The theory dates back to 289 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. Historians were looking around at all the 290 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: stuff that Romans used containing lead, and they started looking 291 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: at cutlery, plates, tableware, you know, and they said, okay, 292 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: ancient Romans used lead utensils, right, They sometimes had lead. 293 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: Plates, cooking implements, right, and we're talking utensils like things 294 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: that you know, you put in your mouth alte exactly. 295 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. But it turns out this this theory was of 296 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: good intent. They were asking the right questions. But it 297 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: turns out that most ancient Romans were not very frequently 298 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: using lead utensils because that was more for the fancy 299 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: pants part of the socioeconomic pyramid. 300 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: For sure, it would appear they were much more likely 301 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 2: to have used wooden utensils and tableware. 302 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: And if you're super duper wealthy, you're using gilded tableware 303 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: or silver, or you're using glass plates. But the issue 304 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: is if people are using tableware at this time, they're 305 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: going to tend to be from the upper crust of society. 306 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: So it's possible that the leaders of the Roman Empire 307 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 1: got more of a dose of lead than most people. 308 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: No mad king syndrome, right, Maybe we'll get to me. Also, 309 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: surely a lot of the proletariat were using like you know, pottery, Yeah, yep. 310 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: No, that's a great point. So that enameler those decorative 311 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: pigments would also be a vector for lead exposure. If 312 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: we go back to the nineteen sixties, we see folks 313 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: like sc Gilfillan who picked up this idea of lead 314 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: poisoning and the Fall of Rome and ran with it. 315 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: He was so into this that nineteen sixty five he 316 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: published an article called in a Burst of Creativity, Lead 317 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: Poisoning and the Fall of Rome. 318 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: Also an excellent emo band. 319 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: Also an excellent emo band. They've got just one album 320 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: from nineteen ninety three. But we think they're going to 321 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: come back. 322 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: I think so too. They'll be opening for My Chemical 323 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: Romance on tour before you know it. So this piece 324 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: or paper, I guess. It was argued that the aristocracy's 325 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: use of lead cookwear and lead infused wine led to 326 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: infertility and cognitive decline among the hoi. No, not the hoypeloi. 327 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: The hoypeloi is the lower class. This is the upper crust. 328 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: So the rulers, not the rules, We're the ones potentially 329 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: getting dumber as a result of this exposure, which is 330 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: of course a perfect recipe for revolution. 331 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, very much so, because now you can now 332 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: you can look at your rulers and say, hey, guys, 333 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: I do think these people might be dumber than us. Like, 334 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be a hot headed revolutionary. I'm 335 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: just saying, whatever these folks are doing that we are 336 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: not doing, is making them kind of dunderheaded. 337 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. You mix that with like, you know, a dose 338 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: of corrupting power and incest and incest it's a rest. 339 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: It's a real recipe for disaster. 340 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then we see this theory about lead in 341 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: the fall of room continue to find interest through the 342 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: next few decades. People like the geochemist Jerome Ragu They 343 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: added gout to the mix. Gout. Yeah, well, sprinkling of 344 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: gout for a little bit of gout as a treat. 345 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it is historically in some of these accounts 346 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 2: associated with lead poisoning. This geochemist mentioned the following said, Hey, 347 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: maybe all the rich folks in ancient Rome having gout 348 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: was due to all that lead and the stuff that 349 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: they drank, and perhaps all the potted meat that they 350 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: were consuming. That's that's me, that's my take. 351 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. And to explain what we're talking about with lead 352 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: as a sweetener, ancient Romans used something they called sappa 353 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: sugar of lead as a preservative and a sweetening agent 354 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: in wine. So they would boil this syrup in these 355 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: lead pots and it would make a sweet flavor, and 356 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: then they would you know, step on the wine with 357 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: it a little bit. I think step on is a 358 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: drug term, but you know, I'm saying they would dilute it. 359 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: The why with this stuff. It would lead to chronic 360 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: lead poisoning. It would cause infertility, dementia, and of course 361 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: gout because your wine tastes sweet, but you're paying for. 362 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: It, oh for sure. However, a lot of us is 363 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: more or less various well intentioned forms of speculation. There 364 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 2: was not the technological means to gather concrete quantitative data 365 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: regarding these theories, so they were essentially just smart dudes 366 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: making pretty smart guesses. However, this all changed very recently. 367 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: In fact, just last year and this is this is 368 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: where this came up on, so they don't want you 369 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: to know. In our weekly Strange News segment, the Roman 370 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 2: lead fall theory is in fact back in a big way, 371 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: though not the way you might think. Yes, we were. 372 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: We are very well adjusted entities, so we definitely don't 373 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: stay up late at night texting each. 374 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: Other weird theories like this. 375 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: I am lying we do. So. In twenty twenty five 376 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: there was a report you you remember that I got 377 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,239 Speaker 1: you and our pal Matt myself very excited. Proceedings of 378 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: the National Academy of Sciences led by da DA a 379 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: guy named Professor Joseph McConnell found that people of Rome, 380 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: they were able to prove it for the first time 381 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: that people of Rome were ingesting lad on a beat 382 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: me here Max, on a fucking bonkers level. 383 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, like on purpose. It was a feature, not a bug, 384 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: as I like to say, as I wanted to say, 385 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 2: They were in fact using a substance that was combined 386 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: with lead. In fact, lead ascetates not just to sweeten 387 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: their wine through the vessels that it was being held in, 388 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: but just putting it straight up in there to just 389 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: make it a little sweeter. Give it that lead that 390 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: led umami. We all crave like a mixer and a cocktail. 391 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 2: Huh yeah, a little bit of bitters in. 392 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: There's a little dash of lead, right, yeah, I'll have 393 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: my pinots straight up with some lead. 394 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah dirty, please, very very dirt dirty. 395 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: And this practice of using lead acetate in wine continued 396 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: well after the fall of the empire. By the way, 397 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: we do have to give some aberration to the Romans. 398 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: They had an impressively sophisticated aqueduct system, which I think 399 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: a lot of modern people forget the catches. The coffeat 400 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: is here that their aqueduct system used lead pipes because 401 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: plumbers of the time loved lead. It's malleable, right, it 402 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: doesn't take that much to heat it and form it. 403 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: It also leaches into everything, so we made pipes well, 404 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: but we made pipes out of bad MATERI. The big 405 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: reveal from this study is that Romans were also breathing 406 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: in huge amounts of lead through the air from silver 407 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: mining and smelting. It was like lead at this time, 408 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: you guys, was like teenage mutant ninja turtles in the 409 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. You couldn't get away from this stuff. Sorry, 410 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: I still got the turtles on the brain. 411 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: Where did that? That came up recently too? We're talked 412 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 2: about we talked about pizza of course, favorite turtles, and 413 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: I think we opened the discussion yesterday to the entire 414 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: Turtles universe, which I wasn't given the option to do 415 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: when posed with this question initially, So I would be 416 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 2: Krang or the big robot body that houses KRNG. Okay, great, yeah, 417 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: well you know that. 418 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: We have sort of voluntold Max to get on board 419 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: with the TMNT lore Max. Thanks for playing along. We 420 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: also op Max is popping back on. Oh what'd you do? 421 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: What was the hand signal? 422 00:25:59,200 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 2: This? 423 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: Okay? 424 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 2: Okay, horns, Okay, I'm on board. 425 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: I thought you were doing that cool hand signal from 426 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 1: Big Trouble in Little China? Do you remember that one 427 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: like that? No, I see what you're doing. We're an 428 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: audio show. So it is true to your point all 429 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: about the danger of lead exposure to children. It's true 430 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: that this toxic substance polluting the air probably got into 431 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: children's blood. It leads to what these researchers call a 432 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: widespread cognitive decline. 433 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: Right with researchers including that lead poisoning or exposure rather 434 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: from the air alone may well have caused an estimated 435 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 2: two point five to three point drop and IQ's throughout 436 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 2: the entirety of the empire. And let's just really quickly 437 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 2: reframe the question here that we posed at the top, 438 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: which is a complex one. Did lead exposure cause the 439 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 2: fall of the Roman Empire? Just putting that one back 440 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: out there. So again, we're in a similar boat here, 441 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 2: not necessarily with lead poisoning, but with things like social 442 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 2: media and AI. We know that that stuff is absolutely 443 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: on a long enough timeline going to cause significant declines 444 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 2: in IQs. 445 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and stay tuned for our upcoming episode on whether 446 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: IQ tests are malarkey. But I love that point there, Noel, 447 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: because modern civilizations are not that different from ancient ones. 448 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: The researchers in this study, in particular, they say their 449 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: findings represent the first documented example of human caused industrial 450 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: pollution in all of history. And the way they figured 451 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: this out, it kind of ties into that episode we 452 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: did a few years back about the worst year in history. 453 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: Do you remember that one? 454 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I was the one where all the real 455 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: bad stuff, right, Yeah, a lot of plagues. It was plagues. 456 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: It was weather stuff. It was bad times. 457 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, very plague forward with notes of natural disaster. Right, 458 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: had a little bit of lead for fun. So these 459 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: folks did something fascinating. They went to Greenland and Russia 460 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: and they started hunting ice core samples. And this was 461 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: really cool because before this study even kicked off, the 462 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: scientists in those areas had spent decades and decades using 463 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: these specially designed large drills to go through ice sheets 464 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: in the Arctic, and they would come up with these long, 465 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: basically ice noodles, solid ice noodles, like eleven thousand feet 466 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: in length. 467 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 2: It's pretty cool the way they store those too, Like 468 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: they have to store those, right. I don't know if 469 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: you guys saw that kind of not that great season 470 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: A true detective. I guess none of them have been 471 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: that great. After the Night Country, Night Country, which it 472 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 2: was cool for a minute, but it ended really weird 473 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: and not good. 474 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: I don't think it was I don't think it was original, correct. 475 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: I think the third season was pretty good. It has 476 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: similar flavor to the first one and similar character study. Yeah, 477 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: some people are real apologists for the second season. I 478 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 2: just remember some of the dialogue being like utterly cringed, 479 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: but I need to go back and revisit it. But 480 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: that season that I'm talking about in Alaska involved ice 481 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,719 Speaker 2: core studies and research stations and all of that. So 482 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: the thing that's cool about ice cores is it's like 483 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: a you know, a time capsule. You can then you 484 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: can look down through these massively long ice noodles as 485 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: you put it in and see what happened in the 486 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: past based on layers of material that have been deposited 487 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: and then covered over and then et cetera. You can 488 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: see what was going on in the environment at the 489 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: time and guess. And these were full of a lot 490 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: of lead, right, Yeah. 491 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: It's kind of like dendo chrinology the science of reading 492 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: tree rings or the art of reading tree rings. 493 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 2: Or phrenology. Wait no, aha, no, no, no. 494 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: Similar intention, but maybe not inaccuracy. Oh phrenology, Noel can 495 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: just for anybody who somehow doesn't know, can you give 496 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: us like a quick three sentence summation on what phrenology is? Not? 497 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 2: Good? There we go. Now, it's just a notion that 498 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: you could like figure out someone's lineage, I guess through 499 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: the bumps on their head. And it was typically harnessed 500 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: in order to other folks from different parts of the world, 501 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 2: not them, you know European experience, right, yeah, like saying 502 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: by studying the bumps on an African Americans head, for example, 503 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: you could see that they were inferior. 504 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: And they got super weird with phrenology to the point 505 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: where they were saying things. 506 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 5: Like, oh, the bump on this back part of the 507 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 5: ear right ear right behind the ear indicates this person 508 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 5: as Welsh heritage, which means they are thief in a gambler. 509 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: That was very good. That's kind of how they do, no, no, 510 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 2: no question about it. And it was also one of 511 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: those pseudoscience's flim flam quackery kind of things that could 512 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 2: be molded to the. 513 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: Very nefarious purposes of whoever was wielding it. So dendo 514 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: chronology is different from this, even from phrenology, which is 515 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: a BS science and I love that. Aside, we know 516 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: how the study went because if we go to articles 517 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: like the Smithsonian in twenty twenty five, we see the 518 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: journalist Sarah Kuta puts it this way. She explains why 519 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: looking at these ice noodles is so important. 520 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: Sarah Kuda correct. She says, as snowflakes fall they capture 521 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: chemicals and particles from the air. When the snow touches 522 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 2: down in the Arctic, it compresses and solidifies in the 523 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: thin layers of ice, with those chemicals and particles still 524 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: trapped inside. I said, in these layerscientists can effectively peer 525 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: back in time. She said it way smarter than I did, 526 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: but the gist is there and it remains true. So 527 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: the team looked at layers of Arctic ice that corresponded 528 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 2: to between five hundred BCE and six hundred CE. In 529 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: examining those, they saw increased levels of lead pollution kind 530 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: of focused around a particular year fifteen BCE, which of 531 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: course lines up with the early years of the Roman Empire. 532 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: And then they also saw those lead levels remained high 533 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: until one hundred and eighty CE. Some of us might 534 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: remember that date from history class, the end of what 535 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 2: we call the Pax Romana, the two hundred ish year 536 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 2: height of the Roman Empire. Oh yeah, piece of Rome. Yeah, 537 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: the glory there was Rome. 538 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: This is a crazy period in history. It's an era 539 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: of for the time, unprecedented prosperity. So as a result, 540 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: the Roman powers that were naturally making a lot of 541 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: currency because they didn't have you know, electronic debit cards 542 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: or chip and pen, So that meant they had to 543 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: do a lot of mining. That meant they had to 544 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: smelt a lot of silver, and both of those endeavors 545 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: send huge amounts of lead into the atmosphere. Speaking to 546 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: the New York Times, Catherine Corney in twenty twenty five, 547 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: doctor McConnell from this study said, you know, to produce 548 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: one ounce of silver at this time, the Romans probably 549 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: also produced something like ten thousand ounces of lead. And 550 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: they didn't have you know, an EPA, right, they didn't 551 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: have some kind of regulatory body saying hey, stop putting 552 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: that crap in the water. 553 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, knock it off. Yeah, hey, you guys, knock it off. 554 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: So they look at like you're saying, these ice samples 555 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: and they find these levels of lead. This is concrete 556 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: evidence that lead was in the air. They started working 557 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: backward and they said, okay, if we know how much 558 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: we can find in the ice from that time, we 559 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: can estimate how much lead the Romans must have just 560 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: been into the atmosphere. 561 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 2: Well, we can tell you atmospheric models suggest that's between 562 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 2: three three hundred and four thousand, six hundred tons of 563 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 2: lead being released each year during the Pax Romana. That's 564 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 2: a lot of lead. Ben that's more than four thousand 565 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 2: tons a year for around two hundred years. 566 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot of lead. And the pollution was 567 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: naturally worst in areas where there was a mining operation 568 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: or smelting industries. It was reaching concentrations of one hundred 569 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: and fifty nanograms per cubic meter of air. So it's 570 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 1: very rank in they are lead wise. Also, air knows 571 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: no terrestrial borders. Air is not a citizen of any government, 572 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,959 Speaker 1: so it just flows. Man, it just goes with the flow. 573 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of a cosmic gumbo. 574 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: It is a little bit of a cosmic gumbo. It's true. 575 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 2: We're not saying that these folks were purposefully tainting everything. 576 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: In the same way we're not saying that like microplastics 577 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 2: were purposely done. It's just another example of people either 578 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 2: not knowing what the long term consequences of things would be. 579 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 2: There might be a tad of not caring and the 580 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: microplastics of it all, but it's not necessarily, you know, 581 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: utterly malicious for the purposes of poisoning the population like 582 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 2: on purpose. Yeah, it's not a thing here I am 583 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: apologized being an apologist for the for the plastics industry. 584 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: No, but it's not a thing where the average person 585 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: or even the average man actual would have noticed damaging 586 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: potential on the way, right, You're not You're walking by 587 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: a mine and you might think, Ah, the air's bad, 588 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: it smells bad, but you're not thinking, oh, this is 589 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: making me dumber. Uh. The researchers use more modern data 590 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: to get a bullpark picture of how much lead would 591 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: have built up in the blood of ancient Roman children, 592 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: and from there they attempted to extrapolate how those accumulations 593 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: might have affected the IQ of those kids. Do it 594 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: for the kids, right? But why focus on children? Why 595 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: focus on the kids? Is it like we. 596 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 2: Believe the children? You know, they literally are, They literally are. 597 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 2: It's a big part of the motivation of this research 598 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 2: to study and tackle current problems related to chemical exposure 599 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: of children. Children are specially vulnerable, as we said, to 600 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 2: lead exposure as their brains are yet to develop fully, 601 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 2: have yet to develop fully, as well as their body 602 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: and various organs of course, various organs the body. And 603 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 2: today we know that no amount of lead exposure at 604 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 2: all is safe for kids. In addition to some of 605 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: those developmental delays that we were speaking of potential to 606 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 2: lower IQ. Lead accumulation in the bodies of children can 607 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 2: lead to slowed down physical growth conditions like anemia, hyperactivity, 608 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 2: hearing problems, and behavioral and learning problems. 609 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is serious stuff. And so our researchers find 610 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: that children during the Pax Romana likely the right. Yeah, 611 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: they likely had an extra two point four micrograms of 612 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: lead per desolater of blood just from the air pollution. 613 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: So if they combine that with research on the more 614 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: recent lead exposed populations, you see a drop in IQ 615 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: that we alluded to earlier, somewhere between two point five 616 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: and three points. So everybody, according to IQ test gets 617 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: a little bit dumber. But wait, as ancient Roman Billy 618 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: Mays was wont to say, there's more. This is just 619 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: the exposure from the air. 620 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: That's what they study. 621 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: They're not studying all the other sources. 622 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 2: One hundred percent pence. So for the average Roman kid 623 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 2: living and ostensibly doing okay during the pox, your life 624 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,879 Speaker 2: would have been absolutely chock full choco block riddles, as 625 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: you like to say, ben with lead. And weirdly enough, 626 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 2: the higher you were in the echelons of society, the 627 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 2: more likely you were to have multiple sources of lead poisoning. 628 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: You've got the indoor plumbing, right, You've got the fancy plates. 629 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 2: Okay, sweetening of the boots, sweet wine, yeah, and so 630 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: sweet berry wine right right. And so it's tricky to 631 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 2: guess just how high these levels get when we factor in, 632 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 2: as you said, the why, the pipes, the decorations, and 633 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 2: so on. For a comparison to Max's earlier note about Flint, Michigan, 634 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: American children had about fifteen micrograms of lead per desolate 635 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 2: blood during the nineteen seventies. That's before lead paint and 636 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 2: leaded gasoline got banned. That likely different research. This is interesting. 637 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 2: This shows us a scary thing about Rome. Different research 638 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 2: from kids around the nineteen seventies. In the US estimate, 639 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: those US kids getting exposed to lead at this point 640 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 2: in history experienced a hard nine point drop in their IQ. Again, 641 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: please check out stuff they don't want you to know. 642 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 2: It's upcoming episode where we dive deep into the dark 643 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 2: side of that one one hundred percent man, and I 644 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 2: think this brings us up to the present, at least 645 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 2: in terms of this type of research, and we have 646 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: a bit of an update. We can all certainly agree 647 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 2: that all of this stuff was bad news for ancient 648 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 2: Rome in terms of the higher ups abilities to govern 649 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 2: all of that. Kind of the question then, though becomes 650 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: is this enough to be a top five candidate for 651 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 2: what caused the fall? The actual fall of the Roman Empire? 652 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 2: And I think the answer there is nay, probably not. 653 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: It's a bit of a stretch, right, I mean, is 654 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 2: it good enough to get shortlisted? We know it happened, 655 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 2: but there's something we wish people would mention more often 656 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: in these conversations. IQ tests are far from perfect. We're 657 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,439 Speaker 2: talking about this off air, have we Gon'll be talking 658 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 2: about on an episode? Yeah, yes, here. 659 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: We are shout out to our buddy Alfred Benney. He 660 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: had a good idea, he had noble intent. But the 661 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: testing itself, the structure of it, the methodology of how 662 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: it was derived, it is controversial because of things like 663 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: cultural bias, reductionism, limited predictive validity, which is, you know, 664 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: going to be familiar to all our fellow honors students. Right, 665 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: you're the smartest kid in second grade? Why are you 666 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: not the president? 667 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 2: Well, not to mention something that we'll talk about much 668 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 2: more in depth and give some personal insights into when 669 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: we do the IQ episode. But like, some people don't 670 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,839 Speaker 2: do well with timed tests, and it can be a 671 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 2: pretty shoddy metric for actual you know, life skills. 672 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, the fact that some of Earth's smartest human beings 673 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: just get freak the heck out when they have to 674 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: take a test. We have all been there. Humans also 675 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 1: will at this still don't really understand how to define intelligence, 676 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: much less how to measure it. So that's our first 677 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: badger in the big bag of problems. And there's another 678 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: problem with the proposition of LED leading to the fall 679 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:03,280 Speaker 1: of the Roman Empire. 680 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 2: Correct, even if we accept the you know validity, the 681 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 2: relative validity of IQ testing and measurement based on the 682 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 2: numbers drive from some of these studies, experts aren't in agreement, 683 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 2: or at least aren't universally persuaded that a provable two 684 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 2: point five to three point drop in IQ was enough 685 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 2: to do the thing, you know, to affect the entire population. 686 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 2: And would that be enough to be a sole factor 687 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 2: in the kind of decline that we're measuring here for 688 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,240 Speaker 2: of an entire society? 689 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I got lost a little bit, guys, 690 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: because I was trying to remember the band that made 691 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: a really anomalous song for them, The Decline by New FX. 692 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: Do you remember that, It's like a twenty minute song. 693 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I do. I just remember we're the 694 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 2: Bruce sporting anti swastika tattoo. 695 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,359 Speaker 1: Yes, Fat byc show. 696 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 2: Jump in here. 697 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,479 Speaker 3: I saw one of my first concerts I ever saw 698 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,919 Speaker 3: was No Effects at the Old Masquerade, and they opened 699 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 3: the concert by playing the Decline. 700 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: They opened the concert with that way. 701 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:10,959 Speaker 2: It was pretty cool. 702 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 3: It was like, really cool way to start concerts. 703 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 2: It's like a short film. They played a short version 704 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 2: of fifteen. 705 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 3: Then it was like, oh man, it's gonna be awesome, 706 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 3: and then they just spent the rest of the time 707 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 3: talking about I thenk They played like six songs after that. 708 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 3: I talked about strip clubs for like half an hour. 709 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: Two different me to decline. 710 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 2: Yes. 711 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,359 Speaker 1: So we know that there is we know that there's 712 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 1: pushback on this theory. You'll speak to folks like the 713 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 1: pathologist Amy L. Pile Ilola speaking with New Scientists. This 714 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: pathologist said the magnitude of exposure and the correlated blood 715 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,760 Speaker 1: lead levels were enough to negatively affect the cognitive function 716 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: of that population. Yet this is still a far pry 717 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: from causing the downfall of the Roman Empire. So this 718 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: pathologist is saying, Okay, yeah, we can acknowledge that everybody 719 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: probably got a little bit dumber. 720 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, a little bit not good, certainly not, but not. 721 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: Enough to lead to the fall of one of history's 722 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,320 Speaker 1: biggest empire single leadedly. 723 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 2: Yes, and other experts do agree. We've got Caleb Finch 724 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,879 Speaker 2: and neurobiologists at the University of Southern California who told 725 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 2: science is you know science, Taylor Mitchell Brown of Science. 726 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 2: He said, the conclusion of widespread cognitive client from an 727 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 2: estimated three IQ point decrease does not match the huge 728 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 2: productivity of the Roman Empire when lead production was maximal. 729 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 2: We've mentioned that, of course, and given props where props 730 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 2: are due. These aqueducts, the architectural features that they, you know, 731 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 2: revolutionized various things that were done when the lead was flowing. 732 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. Another point on that topic is, consider, folks, how 733 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: complicated it is for you to order a thing now 734 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: with an ubiquitous Internet. Consider how tricky it can be 735 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: to order your own stuff now. These folks were still 736 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: despite let exposure, they were more than clever enough to 737 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: figure out global trade networks as far away as parts 738 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: of East Asia with no online access, no. 739 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 2: GPS, no Aii Asians. I think one could argue that 740 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 2: the things that we mentioned at the top of the 741 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,760 Speaker 2: show that we're contending with as a population would likely 742 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 2: lead to more of a malaise and social decline than 743 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 2: lead did for the Romans. Do you think people were 744 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 2: smarter back then, though? I think the Again, we know 745 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 2: it's tough to measure this concept. They were certainly craftier 746 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 2: and they had to get it done. You know, I 747 00:45:59,320 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 2: don't know. 748 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: I think people are playing life on harder difficulty mode, 749 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,839 Speaker 1: So you would be more likely to be weeded out 750 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:12,800 Speaker 1: if you were not competent. 751 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 2: And you're stretching those life muscles a lot harder than 752 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 2: we have to. 753 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Yeah, you're walking a lot more, you're working 754 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: out a lot more, you're exposed to many more old 755 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 1: school pathogens. 756 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 2: Problem solving a lot more. 757 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to worry about where you can 758 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 1: sleep safely, where you can eat, figuring out if the 759 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: water is going to kill you. Yeah, it was harder 760 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: back then. In a lot of ways, but we still 761 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: have our speed bumps and obstacles to civilization. 762 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 2: Today. 763 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: We've had a lot of fun in today's episode. We 764 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: hope you have as well. 765 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,839 Speaker 2: Here's a question, though, real quick, can you build lead 766 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,320 Speaker 2: structures in SIEV six. 767 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: That's where we get to one of our last questions, 768 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: which is about the wonder of the world for the 769 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: Roman Empire? And here we go to UMX in Civilization, 770 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,440 Speaker 1: the game the franchise by sid Meyer. 771 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 3: The best one to build to the Roman Empire really. 772 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 2: Just kind of throwing me, give me three to the wolves. 773 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 3: But the Colosseum. Okay, Colosseum is overpowered, absolutely lousy with. 774 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: Lead, absolutely lousy with led. Hopefully you are not lousy 775 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: with lead. But this gives us us some stuff to 776 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: think about. We can say the hypothesis or the theory 777 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: often gets overblown and pop culture, but it is pretty 778 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: tough to look at all this evidence and not think 779 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: exposure to lead had some kind of influence on ancient Rome. Right, 780 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 1: they did something, And if you take nothing else away 781 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,720 Speaker 1: from this episode, please, fellow ridiculous historians, the next time 782 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: someone at a bar or on a street corner offers 783 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: you a tasty dose of lead. 784 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 2: Just say no, dare to say no to lead. 785 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 1: Thank you again so much for tuning in, fellow ridiculous historians. 786 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,360 Speaker 1: Thanks to our super producer, mister Max no Led Williams. 787 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 1: Max has this episode persuaded you to finally get off 788 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 1: the lead. 789 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,399 Speaker 2: I don't think the condition allows for ingestion of lead. 790 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 2: Get the lead. 791 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 3: Actually, oddly enough, it's like one of the seven things 792 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 3: I can have. I'm not giving up my lead, cage 793 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 3: free lead. That's a prit from Max's Cold Dead. 794 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 2: There we go, big, thanks of course to Eves, Jeff Coche. 795 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: Chris vassiotis here in spirit just talking with both of them. 796 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: And hey, Noel Eaves had a birthday. 797 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 2: Quite recently she had a birthday and she also joined 798 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,879 Speaker 2: forces with the Tennessee Pal Dylan Fagan for a really 799 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 2: sick yoga meditation sash that I was not able to 800 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 2: get into because it's so exclusy and it's sold out, 801 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,280 Speaker 2: But I'm looking forward to getting in on the next one. 802 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist, he loves that he rubs 803 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 2: it on his bald head. Not sure. A. Jbahamas Jacob 804 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 2: is the puzzler. 805 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, Doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance, also our compatriots over 806 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,719 Speaker 1: a ridiculous crime. If you dig us, you will love 807 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,879 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Zarin and Dave and Noel. Thank you so much 808 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: for this one. I know we've been cogitating. 809 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 2: Over this for several years. 810 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: Now, and I can't wait for everybody to tune into 811 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,280 Speaker 1: the dark side of let exposure on stuff they don't 812 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 1: want you to know. 813 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 814 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,080 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 815 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.