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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Wednesday, October the eighth. A

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Speaker 1: man has been on death row for decades, but a

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Speaker 1: podcast interview is going to be the thing that could

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Speaker 1: get him off. Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. Rohades.

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Speaker 1: This is probably going to be a good case study

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Speaker 1: for why we should not be executing people. If somebody

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Speaker 1: could be on death row for almost thirty years and

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Speaker 1: one podcast interview is the thing that gets us to

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Speaker 1: rethink the case. That's where we are in this case

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Speaker 1: in Texas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a case that has so many

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Speaker 2: people involved for a very long time. This is a

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Speaker 2: case we have covered several times on our podcasts because

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Speaker 2: you had an entire state legislator legislature actually coming together,

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Speaker 2: Republicans and Democrats trying to get this guy's execution. State

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Speaker 2: in what state? Texas?

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Speaker 1: Texas? First of all, trying to save a death row

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Speaker 1: inmate two bipartisan in Texas. Yeah, so that lets you

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Speaker 1: know what the hell's going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they manage to get this man, Robert Robertson,

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Speaker 2: fifty eight years old, a stay of execution for just

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Speaker 2: one year. Unfortunately, and I say unfortunately for people who

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Speaker 2: do believe in his innocence. He is set to die

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Speaker 2: next week.

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Speaker 1: And look, there were enough questions, and there's a reason

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Speaker 1: there are all these questions because if they do execute

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Speaker 1: Robert robertson next week, fifty eight years old, if they

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Speaker 1: do go for it with the execution, he will be

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Speaker 1: the first person in the country ever executed based on

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Speaker 1: being convicted for a shaken baby syndrome murder. Yes, he

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Speaker 1: would be the first.

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Speaker 2: We've done this story because the details are so, I say, fascinating,

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Speaker 2: and I hate to say that when a man's life

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Speaker 2: is at stake, but it begs the question about junk science.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it is. I think it's fair medically fascinating. Forensically,

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Speaker 1: this is fascinating.

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Speaker 2: It is. It certainly is so. He was so by

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Speaker 2: the way, I just want to say, his execution date

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Speaker 2: is on October sixteenth, by lethal injection. We are absolutely

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Speaker 2: going to be following this story up until that day.

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Speaker 2: But he was convicted for the two thousand and two

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Speaker 2: death of his two year old daughter, Nicki. He says

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Speaker 2: that he fell asleep with Nicki. He says he woke

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Speaker 2: up and she had fallen out of the bed. Her

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Speaker 2: lips were blue, she was unconscious, and he took her

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Speaker 2: to the hospital. There's a lot of details that follow

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Speaker 2: after that that make this story not so black and white,

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Speaker 2: not so cut and dry, and it's certainly been a

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Speaker 2: big part of the arguments his lawyers have been making

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Speaker 2: to dry not just to get his execution state, but

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Speaker 2: to exonerate him completely.

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Speaker 1: Because it's look, we know more about shaking baby syndrome

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Speaker 1: today than we did twenty was this account there twenty.

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Speaker 2: Whatever years twenty twenty three years ago?

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Speaker 1: Right? We know more and some of the facts or

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Speaker 1: the tests essentially, if you will forgive that crude way

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Speaker 1: of putting it that they would use to figure out

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Speaker 1: if it's shaken baby syndrome have been discredited, like we've

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Speaker 1: thrown those out. Don't use use that anymore. That is

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Speaker 1: what he was convicted of, using those old rules, those

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Speaker 1: old methods, those old rules and methods that the medical

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Speaker 1: community now has thrown out. You're asking, well, why should

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Speaker 1: he not? Why are we going to kill a man

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Speaker 1: over something we call junk science?

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Speaker 2: Now? Yeah, and there are there were complex medical issues

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Speaker 2: that this young girl had been dealing with, including she

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Speaker 2: had been prescribed certain kinds of drugs, and we'll get

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Speaker 2: into all that. But when you really look at the evidence,

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Speaker 2: and if a jury today were to take a look

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Speaker 2: at the same evidence we're looking at now, with the

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Speaker 2: understanding we have about shaking baby syndrome, most people would

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Speaker 2: suggest and including all those lawmakers, that he would never

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Speaker 2: have been convicted today.

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Speaker 1: So that's where we are on the case. Look, there

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Speaker 1: are plenty of people, and there were some in government

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Speaker 1: there in Texas that now, this dude's a monster and

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Speaker 1: the child that could explain had some blunt force trauma

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Speaker 1: is what the those on that side keep pointing to.

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Speaker 1: So this is now not a matter of we don't

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Speaker 1: want to relitigate that case. But there are new facts

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Speaker 1: now that have come up. And it's so interesting to

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Speaker 1: think robes and what in congressional hearings and things we

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Speaker 1: have been watching that people offering are talking about. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he said in a podcast interview. Well you said in

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Speaker 1: a podcast how much podcast have made an impact? And

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Speaker 1: here we are today talking about the possibility of a

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Speaker 1: podcast interview getting a guy off death row.

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Speaker 2: Yes. So this there was a new filing on Monday

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Speaker 2: from his lawyers and they are claiming there is new

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Speaker 2: evidence of judicial misconduct, that new evidence came from an

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Speaker 2: episode of Datelines podcast. This was Lester Holtz interview with

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Speaker 2: the maternal grandfather of Nicki. So this isn't Robert Robertson's

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Speaker 2: father saying this. This is his baby's mother, Nicky's mother's father.

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Speaker 2: So there isn't a compelling reason why he would be

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Speaker 2: saying any of this to try and save his former

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Speaker 2: son in law. This is a man who actually has

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Speaker 2: some really interesting facts about what led up to the

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Speaker 2: arrest of Robertson that is certainly questionable.

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Speaker 1: And the key here and let's explain what there's new

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Speaker 1: evidence that they're pointing to. And we call it evidence,

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Speaker 1: but they're saying that the grandfather here that's been interviewed

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Speaker 1: by Dateline for a podcast. His name is Larry Bowman.

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Speaker 1: Larry Bowman, Nicky's grandfather. Okay. So Bowman said in the

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Speaker 1: interview that the judge Bascombe Bentley called the hospital after

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Speaker 1: Nicky's injury and directed them to call the Bowmans, the grandparents,

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Speaker 1: for permission to remove the baby from life support. Bowman

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Speaker 1: said the judge actually told the hospital that the Bowmans,

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Speaker 1: who are actually the grandparents, were the parents. Therefore, they

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Speaker 1: assumed that the grandparents had the right to take the

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Speaker 1: child off life support. Problem here, they did not have

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Speaker 1: the right to make the call. Robertson was the legal

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Speaker 1: guardian of the child. The roads That could be reason enough,

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Speaker 1: But they even have more things they point to and saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the judge that made the call to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Guess what, he's the one who also signed the arrest

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Speaker 2: warrant for Robert Robertson and then presided over the trial.

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Speaker 2: How is that?

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Speaker 1: Okay, we should at least take a beat and not

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Speaker 1: kill this guy next week on the sixteenth, if nothing else,

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Speaker 1: look at but if this, if we're just finding this out,

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Speaker 1: is this the first time that anybody, any prosecutor anybody

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Speaker 1: ever heard of this fact? We got to take a beat.

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Speaker 2: It gives me chills to be frank here, because this

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Speaker 2: is this goes above and beyond all the other junk

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Speaker 2: science evidence that we've been talking about that got lawmakers involved.

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Speaker 2: This is a completely separate issue that is deeply concerning

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Speaker 2: about justice in this country. The fact that one man,

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Speaker 2: from start to finish was basically respond ncible for this

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Speaker 2: guy being on death row. Truly, and you have to ask,

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Speaker 2: did he have a vendetta did he have a reason

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Speaker 2: behind it, Well, we can't ask him because he's gone.

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Speaker 2: He's dead, so he isn't around to even talk or

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Speaker 2: explain about how it happened, why it happened to any

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Speaker 2: of that. But Robertson had been granted custody two months

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Speaker 2: earlier of his daughter, and he certainly he was a

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Speaker 2: single dad now at this point and taking care of

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Speaker 2: his daughter, and he clearly for him to not have

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Speaker 2: been the one to make the call about his own

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Speaker 2: daughter being removed from life support. And also, you know,

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Speaker 2: we haven't even gotten into this, but he was diagnosed,

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Speaker 2: I believe a few years later, of being autistic, and

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Speaker 2: that explained even the head detective who actually contributed to

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Speaker 2: Robert Robertson being convicted in court said part of the

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Speaker 2: reason why he thought he was guilty was because he

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Speaker 2: seemed so emotionally removed from the situation when he was

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Speaker 2: in the hospital and his daughter was you know, had

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Speaker 2: grievous injuries or a grievous issues, he seemed emotional. Well,

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Speaker 2: now that's been explained by his autism. And so that

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Speaker 2: detective has been on a full campaign for the past

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Speaker 2: several years trying to say this please, please, please. I

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Speaker 2: believe this man is innocent, and I feel responsible because

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Speaker 2: part of my testimony put him away.

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Speaker 1: So even that, isn't that one of the things. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we know more about autism, there's more awareness even I mean,

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Speaker 1: the medical community knows more about autism, but we in

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Speaker 1: the public are at least aware of it. Differently, every body,

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Speaker 1: I think knows if you meet someone I know, someone

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Speaker 1: who's autistic, you now know what that means, and you

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Speaker 1: now aren't offended if they're not looking you in the

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Speaker 1: eye or not responding a certain way. It's like we

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Speaker 1: have just generally a better knowledge. If the detective back

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Speaker 1: then had that same knowledge, maybe he would have looked

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Speaker 1: at it differently. Maybe he would have been saying this

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Speaker 1: same thing he's saying now back then. Who knows. But

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Speaker 1: we know too much now, too much new information. We

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Speaker 1: have learned a lot more about science, this case about

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Speaker 1: death about too much to say those circums fans is

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Speaker 1: then should apply now and we have got this. You

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Speaker 1: can't make a mistake.

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Speaker 2: And what's interesting to me is, you know, you had

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Speaker 2: this huge campaign just based on the fact that, yes,

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Speaker 2: you have this lead detective and the fact that this

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Speaker 2: science that he was convicted by because of what they

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Speaker 2: thought were Little Nikki's issues and what led to and

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Speaker 2: caused her death. The fact that you had all these

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Speaker 2: lawmakers trying to stay his execution, just punting at a year.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what that got anyone, and where all

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Speaker 2: of that stands now in terms of the legal wrangling

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Speaker 2: and what's being done behind the scenes. If anything, did

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Speaker 2: he stop this execution?

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Speaker 1: He ever? Jack my memory, remember they had a hearing

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Speaker 1: set and he was supposed to testify I think via conference,

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Speaker 1: but they ended up canceling that. Yes, that's sound right, Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot happening at that time. But again

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Speaker 1: they managed to get a delay. And again we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Texas. You know, Texas where the Democrats and Republicans

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Speaker 1: don't get along so much that literally the Democrats went

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Speaker 1: on the run and the Republicans sent law enforcement after them.

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Speaker 1: Those Democrats and Republicans got together on this in a

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Speaker 1: state that they have to be number one or number

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Speaker 1: two in executions in this country historically speaking in an

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Speaker 1: even close that group is trying to save this man's life.

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Speaker 2: That is unreal. Yes, so I should say Robertson did

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Speaker 2: file a separate plea this month so that he could

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Speaker 2: file this new legal challenge claiming his imprisonment is illegal

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Speaker 2: because of the overwhelming evidence that he was convicted using

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Speaker 2: that junk science. So that appeal is still ongoing, so

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Speaker 2: he still has that working for him, in addition to

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Speaker 2: this new information that came out in the podcast. So

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Speaker 2: we as a couple avenues, but time is running out.

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Speaker 2: We're talking eight days from now, yes, a week and

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Speaker 2: a day from now from today. Next Thursday is his

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Speaker 2: scheduled execution at six pm.

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Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure first time around there was nothing

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Speaker 1: about Governor Abbott that signaled he was in any mood

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Speaker 1: to commute this sentence, and he was out of options

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Speaker 1: at the time. Then look, there is something else we're

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Speaker 1: talking So it's not necessarily even a guilt or innocence

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. He's not even asking people to look

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Speaker 1: at the case but the facts of the case. But

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Speaker 1: look at the facts of how he even got to jail,

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Speaker 1: and it's something wrong with a man that's just constitutionally,

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Speaker 1: that is not how it's opposed to work. This judge

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Speaker 1: was not just judge. He ended up being jury and

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Speaker 1: looks like he's going to be executioner with what he

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Speaker 1: did call the hospital. These are the parents who aren't

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Speaker 1: the parents the child who I don't know medically how

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Speaker 1: much was it. I guess if a child was on

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Speaker 1: life support, I assume it was not going to go well.

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Speaker 1: But the father didn't get a chance to make the

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Speaker 1: decision about his own child.

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Speaker 2: There's so many things going on here, and.

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Speaker 1: His rights were violated, and you have to stop for

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Speaker 1: a minute and take a beat on this guy's case.

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Speaker 2: Yes, of course. And so when we come back, we're

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Speaker 2: going to tell you what Robertson's lawyers are saying, what

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Speaker 2: their plea to the court is, what their plea to

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Speaker 2: the country is about why they believe their client should

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Speaker 2: not only be allowed to live, but should be set free.

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Speaker 2: And continuing now this episode of Amy and TJ, where

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Speaker 2: we are talking about a case we've been talking about

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Speaker 2: for more than a year now. Fifty eight year old

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Speaker 2: Robert Robertson is scheduled to die by lethal injection next

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Speaker 2: week in the state of Texas, even though his execution

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Speaker 2: was put on hold for a year by a bipartisan

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Speaker 2: group of Texas lawmakers who reviewed some of the evidence,

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Speaker 2: who have been looking into this case. He would be,

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Speaker 2: if he is executed, the first person in this country

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Speaker 2: to die after a conviction for shaken baby syndrome. His

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Speaker 2: two year old girl, Nikki, died in two thousand and two,

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Speaker 2: and there are a lot of competing explanations as to

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Speaker 2: why she died, how she could have died, but there

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Speaker 2: certainly is now in today's understanding of what shaken baby

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Speaker 2: syndrome is an explanation, a plausible explanation that Nikki died

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Speaker 2: from a combination of an illness, some drugs that are

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Speaker 2: now no longer allowed to be prescribed for children, and

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Speaker 2: falling out of bed. They all could have contributed to

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Speaker 2: where she ended up on life support, and it could not.

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Speaker 2: It's possible, by today's medical standards that Robert Robertson had

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Speaker 2: nothing to do at all with his child's death, which

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Speaker 2: is what he has claimed from the beginning. But now

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Speaker 2: there is new evidence from a podcast from Dayline that

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Speaker 2: actually shows some pretty egregious misconduct, if true, in his

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Speaker 2: actual arrest and certainly in the trial that ensued. And

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Speaker 2: so we are now hearing from his lawyer who is

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Speaker 2: asking and they filed a petition earlier this week to

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Speaker 2: try and get a stay of execution. But we're going

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Speaker 2: to read exactly what that language was that they filed

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Speaker 2: with the court. Any objective member of the public, with

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Speaker 2: knowledge of the new facts would reasonably believe that Judge

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Speaker 2: Bentley had prejudiced mister Robertson's guilt and, animated by that

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Speaker 2: presumption of guilt, improperly circumvented the law governing parental rights

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Speaker 2: and the guarantees of due process, and thus should have

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Speaker 2: recused himself from presiding over mister Robertson's criminal case to

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Speaker 2: preserve the appearance of impartiality. Judge Bentley's failure to do

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Speaker 2: so caused structural error and requires a new trial. So

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Speaker 2: they are asking for a new trial.

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Speaker 1: Look, we need to call a lawyer because I wonder

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Speaker 1: is there's a good ground sport.

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Speaker 2: It seems like it.

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Speaker 1: His rights were violated and the judge in that judge,

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Speaker 1: he did not get a chance to make the call

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Speaker 1: about his child. His constitutional rights were violated. Period. The

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Speaker 1: judge played a role in that. The judge who signed

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Speaker 1: is a rest warrant, and the judge who presided over

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Speaker 1: his trial, I don't know. And he's talking to a

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Speaker 1: lawyer to see where that's not a.

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Speaker 2: Problem as a as a non legal expert, but as

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Speaker 2: a member of the human race, it just seems to

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Speaker 2: me fairly obvious that that is absolutely a conflict of

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Speaker 2: interest from start to finish, and that in and of

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Speaker 2: itself would allow legally, it would seem, it would appear

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Speaker 2: it would. I just think from anyone who's looking at

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Speaker 2: it from a distance could say, yeah, that dude deserves

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Speaker 2: a new trial, from the medical knowledge that we've gained

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Speaker 2: over the past two decades, from this seemingly egregious conduct

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Speaker 2: by a judge who seemed or could have possibly had

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Speaker 2: an agenda for whatever reason, all those two things combined alone,

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Speaker 2: and then you have lawmakers from a state that has

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Speaker 2: zero problem for the most part, sending people to death

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Speaker 2: row actually coming together in a rare instance, to try

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Speaker 2: and keep this man alive. For those reasons, why wouldn't

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Speaker 2: we give this man a new trial? I mean, I'd

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Speaker 2: pose it from that perspective, I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: But this has been an intriguing case for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and hey, look, this is not any matter of guilt

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Speaker 1: or Innocen's arguing anything. I will always argue, geez, we

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Speaker 1: cannot make a mistake. So this is too many questions.

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Speaker 1: There have been some folks that we've covered a lot

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Speaker 1: of executions lately, and some of them go to that

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Speaker 1: execution chamber say yep, I did it, and I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: for what I did. This is just and you feel

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Speaker 1: differently about those, even if you're against the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: This is just one where we seem to be in

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Speaker 1: a rush to execute a guy just when there's too

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Speaker 1: many questions.

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Speaker 2: And if this has you as interested as it does us,

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Speaker 2: we would encourage you to read up on this story.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I actually feel emotionally invested in this, like

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Speaker 2: I am nervous for next week because I hate to

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Speaker 2: think that this country that we live in, this country

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Speaker 2: that we love, would make this call. It makes me

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Speaker 2: feel actually physically ill with this case in particular. So

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Speaker 2: we will continue to follow this and bring you any

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Speaker 2: updates as they warrant, But we appreciate you listening to us.

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Speaker 2: I made me roboch alongside TJ. Holmes, and we will

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Speaker 2: talk to you very soon.