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Speaker 1: It's Behind the Bastards, the only podcast where we have

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Speaker 1: to edit out large chunks of it because of the

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Speaker 1: number of veiled threats I make towards social media. CEOs

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Speaker 1: my guest today to talk about some of the worst

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Speaker 1: people in all of history. Uh is my my good friend,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite stand up comedians and fellow podcast

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Speaker 1: ear like Musketeer. It spelt like musketeer, but the podcast

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Speaker 1: Sophia Alexandra. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me. Thank you, Sophia for being here.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing today? You know, just smiling ear ear,

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Speaker 1: smiling ear to ear. Sophia, how do you how do

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Speaker 1: you feel about Nazis? Um? Well, are they hot? I

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Speaker 1: mean statistically some of them where yes? Of course, still

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Speaker 1: a no for me, still a no, a no. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's a bold, bold stance for you to take you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I am braver than than the president,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. So you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the few nice things about the last couple

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Speaker 1: of months, which have broadly sucked, is that like a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of mainstream news sites and pundits, uh and

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Speaker 1: and influencers and whatnot who were like making fun of

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Speaker 1: folks like me who were worried about, you know, the

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Speaker 1: whole fascism thing. Um are now are now talking seriously about,

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Speaker 1: like this is pretty fascist. A lot of the stuff

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Speaker 1: that's going on seems like we're in a bad place,

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Speaker 1: like the Atlantics running articles and ship on you know that.

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Speaker 1: Um So that's been nice that, like people are taking

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Speaker 1: the rise of fascism in America more seriously. Um And

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Speaker 1: except for like, this is the reaction that would have

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Speaker 1: been appropriate like four years old, four years ago, and

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Speaker 1: now is just so underwhelmed ing and so much less

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Speaker 1: than what we need that it's almost negligible. Yeah yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm not giving them credit, but at least

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Speaker 1: at least people aren't like calling you like a doomsayer

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Speaker 1: or whatever for for being like, hey, this kind of

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Speaker 1: seems like what was happening in Germany back in the thirties.

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Speaker 1: You'll remember Germany back in the thirties, what happened there.

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Speaker 1: The truth is, people don't they just remember, how like

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Speaker 1: the haircuts, Yeah, that's why we did, you know. And

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Speaker 1: one of the earlier episodes we did on this show

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Speaker 1: was about like the non Nazi bastards who helped Hitler

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Speaker 1: rise to power UM, which was based on a really

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Speaker 1: good book that people should still read called The Death

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Speaker 1: of Democracy, and kind of at the time when I

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Speaker 1: put that together, I thought it was really important that

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Speaker 1: people understand how um, like multicultural and progressive the Weimar

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Speaker 1: Republic was, and how that sort of a place turned

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Speaker 1: to totalitarian is m because I think it's possible for

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Speaker 1: any democracy, no matter how progressive, with like the right

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Speaker 1: number of bad years, and we've certainly had some bad years. UM.

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Speaker 1: So the thing I wanted to do today, though, like

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Speaker 1: that episode focused a lot on politicians, on like you know,

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Speaker 1: high ranking conservative politicians, on members of the aristocracy, on

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Speaker 1: like you know, left wing politicians, and like like the leaders,

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Speaker 1: like the different leaders of political parties, and like the

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Speaker 1: decisions they made that allowed Hitler to to get into

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Speaker 1: power UM, And I want to focus on I want

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Speaker 1: to focus on a different group of people today who

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Speaker 1: were who were as responsible for letting Hitler do what

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Speaker 1: he did, but who weren't a lot of them, Like

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Speaker 1: we don't even really know the names of the individuals,

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Speaker 1: and it's not really important because what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: today are the little Nazis, the rank and file fascists

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Speaker 1: who voted Hitler into office and gave him their support,

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Speaker 1: because I think there's a lot we can learn about

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Speaker 1: our own modern fascists. And again, not like the not

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Speaker 1: the proud boys and stuff, not the people taking to

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Speaker 1: the streets and fighting, but the people who are like willing,

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Speaker 1: who will who would support President Trump not just in

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Speaker 1: re election, but in throwing people into camps and you know,

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Speaker 1: re educating or killing his ideological and enemies. Like the

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Speaker 1: kind of people who wouldn't stand out on the street

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Speaker 1: and risk their lives for a fascist regime, but would

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Speaker 1: kind of stand back and let it happen and give

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Speaker 1: it just enough of their support that it's able to

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Speaker 1: go the rest of the distance. We're talking about those

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Speaker 1: kind of people today, and we're talking about those kind

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Speaker 1: of people from the Nazi regime, like the the little

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Speaker 1: Nazis is a is a term that I'm actually stealing

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Speaker 1: from a very controversial book by an author named Milton

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Speaker 1: Sanford Meyer. Um and Meyer's book was probably the first

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Speaker 1: postwar investigation into how and whine normal German citizens joined

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Speaker 1: the Nazi Party. So it's not a book again about

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Speaker 1: like the proud boy equivalence, the fascist street paramilitaries who

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Speaker 1: helped Hitler rise to prominence. It mostly deals with like

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Speaker 1: bakers and teachers and like policemen who decided pretty late

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Speaker 1: in the game to to support Hitler and help him

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Speaker 1: do the things that he did. So that's who we're

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Speaker 1: talking about today, is the is the little Nazis. And

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Speaker 1: I think people will recognize a lot of comparisons, um

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Speaker 1: between those folks and some people they may know in

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Speaker 1: their daily lives. I think it's a little bit hilarious

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Speaker 1: when people talk about, like when people would talk about

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Speaker 1: Nazis like like during the forties and then people just

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Speaker 1: went along with them and they'd be like, I could

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Speaker 1: never do that. And now fast forward to today, like

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Speaker 1: those are the same people that won't even fucking read

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Speaker 1: a proper article or you know, vote or you know,

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Speaker 1: do anything that might be helpful for anyone sign a petition.

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Speaker 1: I don't fucking know, you know, Yeah, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's it's um So that passivity, I guess, is what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. Is it We all have that to some degree.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a thing you have to like that. It

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Speaker 1: is absolutely that passivity is what lets the Nazis get

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Speaker 1: away with the things that they get away with, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And we'll be talking about those kind of folks too.

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Speaker 1: We'll be talking, particularly at the end of part two

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Speaker 1: about the folks who supported the Nazis even though they

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Speaker 1: weren't Nazi voters, you know, supported them by their inaction, UM,

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Speaker 1: because I think that's important to talk about. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of what we're chatting about are folks, like folks

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Speaker 1: who kind of the kind of people who would have

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Speaker 1: said something along the lines of, well, I don't like Hitler, um,

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Speaker 1: but I don't you know, I think that I don't

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Speaker 1: think that he's very serious about a lot of this

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Speaker 1: anti Jew stuff. I think that'll that will die down

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Speaker 1: once he wins, and like you know, he'll be good

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Speaker 1: for the economy. And you've heard the people who are

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Speaker 1: making the same arguments in nine three or whatever that

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Speaker 1: like folks made in sixteen and are continuing to make UM.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I think I think UM. Milton Myer's

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Speaker 1: book is so valuable because it basically what he did

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Speaker 1: is he traveled to Germany immediately after the war UM,

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Speaker 1: and he made he befriended a bunch of members of

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Speaker 1: the Nazi Party, and not again, not like people who'd

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Speaker 1: had any stance, but like normal working class people who

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Speaker 1: just joined the party and voted for Hitler. And he

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Speaker 1: was he was a Milton was a Jewish journalist, um.

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Speaker 1: Which he didn't talk about the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: Jewish to them, but he like he made that that's

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Speaker 1: not really gonna be something that people loved here in

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Speaker 1: the Nazi Party meetings, He's like, I mean, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that might be most unsettling, and we'll get

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Speaker 1: to this, is that, like, I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: them probably wouldn't have cared all that much because that

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Speaker 1: wasn't their motivation for supporting the Nazis, which again is

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Speaker 1: one of the more unsettling things about them, is the

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Speaker 1: number of people who enabled the Holocaust despite not really

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Speaker 1: having super like like organized anti Semitic feelings themselves. Um Like,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the most unsettling things about the Holocaust

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Speaker 1: is the number of people who enabled it to happen

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Speaker 1: despite not particularly wanting it to happen, um. Which is

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Speaker 1: kind of one of the things we don't talk about

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Speaker 1: enough when we talk about the Holocaust, because that's almost

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Speaker 1: even scarier to me than the people who whose hatred

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Speaker 1: and racism moved them to take action. It's the people who,

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Speaker 1: like you, knew this was wrong and you let it

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Speaker 1: happen um or you even helped in some way. I don't.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that too, So let's cut straight to

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Speaker 1: the chase. Though. Are there dead babies in this episode?

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Speaker 1: There's the insinuation of dead babies in this episode because

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Speaker 1: a lot of babies died in the Holocaust, but we

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Speaker 1: don't there's not. Well, actually no, there is. There is.

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Speaker 1: There is direct baby killing. Yes, what will be talking

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Speaker 1: graphically about baby killing in part two? Actually? Yes, start

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Speaker 1: a bit. This is how you get me. I can't

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Speaker 1: write a Sophia episode without some dead babies in it.

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Speaker 1: You can't look. It's Sophie grinning over there. I think

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Speaker 1: she remembered before I did this. Yeah, So when when

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Speaker 1: When Meyers set out to write this book and you know,

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Speaker 1: started making all these friends, his goal was to sketch

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Speaker 1: out quote the delineation of the personal conditions under which

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Speaker 1: the little man anywhere becomes involved in the development of

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Speaker 1: totalitarian evil, and the ways in which he assumes or

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Speaker 1: avoids moral responsibility for his participation in it. Which I

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Speaker 1: think is a really good premise for a book, um,

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Speaker 1: especially consider he was kind of the first guy to

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Speaker 1: look into this. So he moves to Jeremany right after

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Speaker 1: the war. He makes good friends with like ten male

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Speaker 1: former members of the Nazi Party, and he titles his

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Speaker 1: book about them they Thought They Were Free. And we'll

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that title later, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's one of my favorite, my favorite titles for

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Speaker 1: any book. UM. Now, there's a lot of good critiques

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Speaker 1: about Meyer's book, and we'll talk about as fuck. It's

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Speaker 1: incredibly ominous, and it incredibly pointed, and it makes a

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Speaker 1: very important point that again we'll talk to in a bit. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's there's good criticisms of the book, a number of

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Speaker 1: them being that, like, for one thing, he only talks

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Speaker 1: to men, right, which is like kind of a bias

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Speaker 1: of the time, um, which is is definitely a flaw

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Speaker 1: in the book. He also Tinman isn't a huge chunk

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Speaker 1: of people, but you get a lot of detail into

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Speaker 1: why those ten people did you know, the things that

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Speaker 1: they did, which I think is really valuable. UM. And

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Speaker 1: you know, they're ten people from one town, so you

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Speaker 1: can't assume it's like a super broad It doesn't give

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Speaker 1: us the broader picture on on all of the different

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Speaker 1: reasons people picked the Nazi Party. So we'll be going

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Speaker 1: to I have a lot of outside evidence, a lot

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Speaker 1: of things besides the book that we'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: that sort of give us that broader picture. Um. I

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Speaker 1: want to start our episode with a brief overview of

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Speaker 1: Meyer's life because I think it's really interesting. Uh. He

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Speaker 1: was born in Chicago in nineteen o eight and he

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Speaker 1: studied at the University of Chicago, but he got kicked

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Speaker 1: out before graduating because he was caught hucking beer bottles

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Speaker 1: at the dean from like the top floor of his dormitory.

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Speaker 1: Me a bad boy. Yeah. When he was questioned about it,

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Speaker 1: he was like, my only regret is I didn't hit him.

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Speaker 1: You gotta love the guy. Um. So he drops out

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Speaker 1: of college and he gets a job in journalism shortly thereafter,

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Speaker 1: and he, you know, he does a number of things.

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Speaker 1: He works for her paper, so he gets some like

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Speaker 1: muckraking kind of like populist sort of experience. Um. And

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Speaker 1: he actually he winds up being the guy who comes

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Speaker 1: up with the actual like the lion that is every

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Speaker 1: journalist job description today. He's the guy who convinced the

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Speaker 1: phrase speak truth to power, Like that's that's Milton Meyer. Um,

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Speaker 1: he's the first person to like put those words together,

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Speaker 1: which I think still is the best job the best

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Speaker 1: like job summary you can have as a journalist. That's

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Speaker 1: not came up with breast cancer, thirst trap, but that doesn't.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty good to friend as much. I have that

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Speaker 1: tattooed on my body. Also, Yeah, oh is it? Is

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Speaker 1: it where you said you were going to get it

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Speaker 1: above Oh yeah, no, yep, yep, yep, yep, not on

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Speaker 1: the ankle, because you're going to get it under the dick,

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Speaker 1: and then he decided to go above that the under

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Speaker 1: the dick was too full of other tattoos. Smart. I have,

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Speaker 1: oddly enough the opening to slaughter House five, which was

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Speaker 1: maybe a poor choice in retrospect, a lot of words

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Speaker 1: to it on there. So it's your way of telling

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Speaker 1: us you are huge, because that's not what needs to

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Speaker 1: happen during this Nazi reckoning episode. Robert Evans, Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: not the president. I'm not going to turn something serious

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Speaker 1: into talking about my dick. So Milton was fundamentally a

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Speaker 1: believer in human rights and he felt that people should

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Speaker 1: fight like hungry dogs to maintain those rights in the

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Speaker 1: face of state oppression they thought they were free. Came

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Speaker 1: out of his confusion that citizens of the Weimar Republic,

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Speaker 1: which is again a very progressive state, would give up

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Speaker 1: their rights so readily. Like he was kind of baffled

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Speaker 1: by this, and he just personally needed an answer. And

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Speaker 1: for his time, you know, he had his biases, like

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Speaker 1: we just talked about, not really talking, not talking to

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Speaker 1: women to any meaningful extent, but he was also a

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Speaker 1: pretty enlightened soul for his time. He repeatedly compares the

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Speaker 1: bigotry paced faced by European Jews to Jim crow um,

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Speaker 1: to the oppression of black people in the United States

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Speaker 1: to the internment of Japanese Americans. Um So, he's he's

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Speaker 1: a guy who's who's looking. He's not, He's he's very oh,

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Speaker 1: kind of what the United States represents in his eyes,

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Speaker 1: but he's certainly not blind to its faults, and he

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Speaker 1: sees that like, oh, a fascism comes to the United States,

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Speaker 1: it will be based in bigotry against these different groups.

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Speaker 1: That I think is pretty accurate. Um So he's he's

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Speaker 1: he's I think a guy who's worth paying attention to

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Speaker 1: um And I really, like I said earlier that like

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Speaker 1: I like his definition of little men, of of what

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Speaker 1: like a little man is in a culture. And I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna quote from that now. He's talking about the friends

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Speaker 1: that he made to write this book. These ten men

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Speaker 1: were little men. Only Hair Hildebrant, the teacher, had any

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Speaker 1: substantial status in the community. And when I say little men,

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Speaker 1: I mean not only the men for whom the mass

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Speaker 1: media and the campaign speeches are everywhere designed, but specifically

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Speaker 1: and sharply stratified societies like Germany, the men who think

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Speaker 1: of themselves in that way. Every one of my ten

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Speaker 1: Nazi friends, including Hildebrant, spoke again and again during our

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Speaker 1: discussions of we little people. We have that in the

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Speaker 1: United States, don't we do a different extent. We don't

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Speaker 1: call it, they don't call themselves the little people, but

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Speaker 1: everyday Americans, real Americans, like that's our version of that.

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Speaker 1: Working class heroes. Yeah, working class heroes. We have our

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Speaker 1: version of that. You know, it's important not to over

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Speaker 1: extend comparisons because Germany very different society, a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff going on that we don't have going on, just

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Speaker 1: like we but like you can you can see a

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Speaker 1: line like you know, people who see themselves that way.

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Speaker 1: I think that reminds me of the fact that basically, like, uh,

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Speaker 1: when you don't have a lot, yeah, the one thing

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Speaker 1: you can like cling to is your identity. Yeah, exactly

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Speaker 1: is your identity. So if you see yourself as constantly

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Speaker 1: getting like the short une of the stick, you would

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Speaker 1: think of yourself as like, yeah, I'm the everyday little man,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's it's those little men number one.

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Speaker 1: As Mayer points out, it's the little men that all

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Speaker 1: of the Nazi electoral campaigns were focused on. They wanted

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Speaker 1: to win the little men, and it's a little men

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Speaker 1: who made the Holocaust possible. You know, if you have

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Speaker 1: a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand people

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Speaker 1: who want to kill all of whatever ethnic group, the Jews,

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Speaker 1: the immigrants, like whatever, if you have a few hundred

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Speaker 1: or a few thousand of them in a society, the

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Speaker 1: most they're gonna do is commit some hate crimes, which

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Speaker 1: are terrible, but they're not going to be able to

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Speaker 1: actually carry out a genocide if there's not a few

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Speaker 1: million people who get on board just enough to let

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Speaker 1: it happen, you know, And that that's why I like

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Speaker 1: Meyer's book. That's why I think it's important. So yeah, again,

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Speaker 1: not a perfect book, but I think a valuable one. Now,

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Speaker 1: I want to start this episode by busting a myth,

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Speaker 1: and we just talked about it, and it's the myth

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Speaker 1: that every person who would joined the Nazi Party or

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Speaker 1: supported them actively hated Jewish people. Um. And I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to counter that, not to give the Nazis credit,

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Speaker 1: because I think it actually condemns those individuals. More. The

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Speaker 1: thing that's important for people to understand is that you

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Speaker 1: don't little men and women don't have to hate in

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Speaker 1: order to enable genocides. Benign indifference is all that's necessary.

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Speaker 1: And this is really well illustrated by the story of

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Speaker 1: one of myers Nazi friends, a former bank clerk named Kessler. Now,

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Speaker 1: Kessler was late to join the Nazi Party, and he

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Speaker 1: was never a full convert to the ideology. As late

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Speaker 1: as nineteen thirty eight, he maintained a fairly close friendship

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Speaker 1: with a local Jewish man named Rosenthal, who had once

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Speaker 1: been his boss, the director of his bank. Now, the

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Speaker 1: day before Christallnacht, when the synagogue in their city was

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Speaker 1: burnt to the ground, as were so many other synagogues

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Speaker 1: in Germany. Kessler told his Jewish friend that quote, with

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Speaker 1: men like me and the party, things will be better,

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Speaker 1: You'll see. Um can we say though that this has

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Speaker 1: a real have I have one black friend kind of vibe?

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Speaker 1: You know? Sure, like I have a Jewish frenz. See

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Speaker 1: doesn't really seem like it's great if you can. It's

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Speaker 1: one guy you know that's Jewish and that's fun in it.

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Speaker 1: That's that's not good. It's certainly not good. And again

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to like defend these Nazis by saying

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Speaker 1: that they didn't actively hate. The point is that, um,

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Speaker 1: it was it was it was people like Kessler who

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Speaker 1: and and this guy like that might got to know

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Speaker 1: him pretty well. He talked about his friendship with this

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Speaker 1: man a decent amount, and like talked about to the

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Speaker 1: extent that like you can you can see that Kessler

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Speaker 1: felt guilty about his party affiliation and was trying to

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Speaker 1: assuage it with with with comments like this, which means

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Speaker 1: there was number one, an extent to which he knew

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Speaker 1: what he was doing was wrong and he was kind

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Speaker 1: of trying to wash the slate clean in his own

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Speaker 1: head by saying like, no, by joining this party, I

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Speaker 1: can pull it back towards a rational side of things,

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Speaker 1: right Like that was what this guy had to tell

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Speaker 1: himself in order to kind of deal with the guilt

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Speaker 1: that he knew he was supporting something bad. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I think we know a lot of people who are

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Speaker 1: in that position in our country today. Um, I'm related

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Speaker 1: to some of them. Uh. Kessler believed quote that has

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Speaker 1: more and more decent citizens joined it. It being the

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Speaker 1: Nazi party, it would certainly join it for the better.

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Speaker 1: And Meyer goes on to write, quote, my friends meant

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Speaker 1: what they said. They calculated wrong, but they meant what

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Speaker 1: they said. And the Moral and Religious bank clerk was

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Speaker 1: on the basis of that mortally wrong calculation to preach

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Speaker 1: the most barbarous paganism and the decent bourgeoisie teacher who

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Speaker 1: was to teach Nazi literature from Nazi textbooks provided by

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Speaker 1: the Nazi school board. Teachers teach what they are told

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Speaker 1: to teach, or quit, and to quit a public post

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Speaker 1: mint in the early years of the Third Reich, unemployment

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Speaker 1: later when one had an anti Nazi political past and

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Speaker 1: meant concentration camp. Once you were in the party, said

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Speaker 1: his friend, the baker, who doesn't say he ever wanted

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Speaker 1: to get out. You didn't get out easily. And again

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Speaker 1: you see what he's kind of the point he's making

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Speaker 1: there is that like these people talk about how hard

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Speaker 1: it is to get out, but they didn't try. And

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Speaker 1: this is one of the things that if you that

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Speaker 1: that I think because of when he was writing this,

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Speaker 1: Meyer didn't know. But there's actually it's over emphasized the

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Speaker 1: degree to which people would have potentially faced punishment for

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Speaker 1: refusing to take part in a in an anti Jewish bigotry.

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Speaker 1: There was not a single leader in the Wehrmacht, not

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Speaker 1: a single officer in CEO, who was punished for refusing

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Speaker 1: to take part in a massacre. And some of them did.

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Speaker 1: The ones who participated did so because they were scared

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Speaker 1: that it would harm their ability to get promoted, or

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Speaker 1: because of peer pressure. But like nobody, it actually is

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Speaker 1: a myth that members like you were punished if you

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Speaker 1: actively tried to help people hide. Let's just say it

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Speaker 1: was frowned upon, but it wasn't. You wouldn't like the

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Speaker 1: people who participated weren't in fear of their lives if

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Speaker 1: they didn't participate. There's no saying it wasn't prohibited. They weren't.

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Speaker 1: Like if you do this, you will suffer with this.

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Speaker 1: It was, Oh, it's frowned upon, so probably not do it.

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Speaker 1: Oh do it because it will make me unpopular to

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Speaker 1: not do it. Like and again, that's much more unsettling

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Speaker 1: than these people all being radicalized automatons who are just

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Speaker 1: lockstep in favor of Nazism. Like, it's so much less

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Speaker 1: scary to me that somebody could be like a straight

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Speaker 1: up member of the s S and just onboard for

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Speaker 1: genocide than somebody than that somebody could help with the

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Speaker 1: genocide because like, well, people won't like me if I

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Speaker 1: don't like that. That's way scarier to me. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: um and just real, yeah, and real it speaks to

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Speaker 1: something ugly in all of us, because I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people would do that. I mean, the whole

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Speaker 1: idea behind the parties that you're joining a group of

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Speaker 1: people and that gives you something that you don't get

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Speaker 1: when you're on your own. You know, that can be

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Speaker 1: positive or negative depending on what the party you're joining is.

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Speaker 1: And when I read all these stories because there's a

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Speaker 1: few of them, and Myer's book about people who thought

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Speaker 1: that joining about like kind of more moderate folks who

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Speaker 1: thought that joining the Nazi Party would pull it in

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Speaker 1: a better direction. I'm reminded of General mad Dog Maddis now.

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Speaker 1: I think you remember, like back when he first got

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Speaker 1: appointed Secretary of Defense. They are all these think pieces

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Speaker 1: about like how good this would be and about how

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Speaker 1: this would like make Trump more moderate and and and

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Speaker 1: pull him towards the sides side of rationality. Uh. There's

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Speaker 1: a Mother Jones article titled Democrats hope mad Dog will

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Speaker 1: call him Trump down. Um, like Senator Jack Reid when

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Speaker 1: he was like because he had to get a special

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Speaker 1: dispensation to be the Secretary of Defense that she had

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Speaker 1: been in the army so recently, Um Jack. Senator Jack Read's,

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Speaker 1: a Democrat, said that he hoped Madis would be the

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Speaker 1: saucer that cools the coffee. Um. And Senator Richard Blumenval,

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Speaker 1: who did vote against giving Maddis a waiver, still said

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Speaker 1: that like, Uh, in this moment of history, I believe

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Speaker 1: that your appreciation for the costs of war and blood

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Speaker 1: treasure in lives and the impact on veterans afterwards, were

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Speaker 1: enable you to be a check on rash and potentially

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Speaker 1: ill considered force use of military force by a president

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Speaker 1: elect who perhaps lacks that same appreciation. And of course

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Speaker 1: what did we see. Maddis completely failed to drag Trump

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Speaker 1: towards a reasonable position on absolutely anything. Civilian casualties from

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Speaker 1: US action increased massively as soon as Trump took office.

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Speaker 1: The rate of joke drone strikes increased to an enormous degree,

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Speaker 1: and as a result of the Trump administration's escalation of

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Speaker 1: violent force, the United States now kills more Afghan civilians

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Speaker 1: than the Taliban does. Um, there's just no evidence that

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Speaker 1: Maddis calmed Trump at all, because fascists don't let reasonable

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Speaker 1: men dictate their policies. If they did, they wouldn't be fascists,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, But it's the same people keep making

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Speaker 1: the same calculation, right. Um. You know, you can cliche

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Speaker 1: it's the whole thing, Like, oh, you can change it

427
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: from the inside. Yeah, that's a cliche for a reason,

428
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: because that ship does not work. It's like that might

429
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: change it from the inside. You're in the inside. You're

430
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: on the fucking inside. That's what the inside is. That's

431
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: what it means. Yeah, it's like that lion in the

432
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: Simpsons when Homer says, but Marge, maybe if I'm a

433
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 1: part of that angry mob, I can help steer it

434
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: in positive directions. He will not. Yeah, Um, but I

435
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: think we can all Like you see people today making

436
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 1: the same calculations. Um, And you see people today like another.

437
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: I have a lot of family members who kind of

438
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: made the calculation. I can remember early in sixteen, we

439
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: had a family reunion before Trump was back, when everyone

440
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: was still assuming he would he would fail to win. Um.

441
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: And like all of my Republican family members were dunking

442
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: on the guy because they all loved John McCain and

443
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: Trump had said a bunch of shitty things about John McCain,

444
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 1: so they hated Trump. And then he became the candidate

445
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: and they all voted for him. Uh. And they insisted

446
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: to me that it was it was worthwhile because at

447
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: the very least Trump was not a dirty socialist like

448
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. And let's let's skip over the fact that, like,

449
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 1: let's skip over everything that's wrong with that statement. It's

450
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: something that you all that it's another echo because campaigning

451
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: against violent communists was a big part of the Nazis

452
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: rested their electoral hopes on um. Myer's friend Herr Kessler

453
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: told him quote, Hitlerism had to answer communism with something.

454
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: Just as radical communism always used force, Hitlerism answered it

455
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: with force. The real, the really absolute enemy of communism,

456
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: always clear, always strong in the popular mind, was national socialism.

457
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: The only enemy that answered communism and kind. If you

458
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: wanted to save Germany from Communism, to be sure of

459
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: doing it, you went to national socialism. The Nazi slogan

460
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty two was if you want your country

461
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: to go Bolshevik, vote communist. If you want to remain

462
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 1: free Germans, vote Nazi. Now you go look at some

463
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: of the things at the ads Trump has been putting

464
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: out over the last two three months, the things he's

465
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: been saying about Antifa, and and tell me it's not

466
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: the same fucking ad. And in fact, the Friday before

467
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: I wrote this, Trump gave a speech where he told donors,

468
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: I am the only thing standing between the American dream

469
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: and total anarchy, madness and chaos. It's the same fucking

470
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: play and acting during the debate by saying um that

471
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: the violence UM and white supremacy are not a problem,

472
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: and yeah, that that it's a it's actually a left

473
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: wing problem. That's where all the violence is from. And

474
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: it's definitely not a right wing problem, which is the

475
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: same nonsense. And it's it's I mean, which even the

476
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: even the FBI will say like no, dude, and have

477
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: been pretty consistently saying like no, no, no. All of

478
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: the murders pretty much are on one side of this thing.

479
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, it's the it's the reason Trump declared

480
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: Portland and a couple of other cities anarchist jurisdiction, even

481
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: though we have like the most violent and authoritarian police

482
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: force in the country. It's because it doesn't matter what

483
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: the truth is on the ground, if you can make

484
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: Americans think Portland has been burnt down by anarchists. And

485
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: he was hoping like there's good people on both sides. Yeah, yeah,

486
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: and then now like can you imagine looking back at that,

487
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: Now that's quaint, because that's acknowledging that there's good people, um,

488
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: who are not fascists, Whereas what he said at the

489
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: debate was that, um, actually all the good people are

490
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: right wing and all the bad people are left. Yeah,

491
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 1: and it's it's too early to know how that's all

492
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: going to shake out electorally. A lot of the recent

493
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: polls make it look like his law and order campaign

494
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: has not worked, like it hasn't brought more people to him. Um. Really, again,

495
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: we'll see on the election how true, how accurate those

496
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: polls are. I'm hopeful and don't give a funk about

497
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: a poll now. I don't trust any polls. I've been

498
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: hurt too bad. I'm sorry, but we've all been burnt badly,

499
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: which is good. I'm actually glad that no one trusts

500
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: the polls because the polls are all showed that Biden

501
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: has it basically locked down. I don't want anyone to

502
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: feel but I don't trust that ship for us a second.

503
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: So every time they say, hey, there's substantial lead, that

504
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: just makes it so that people are like, I guess

505
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: I can stay home. Yeah, I want people to be

506
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: scared as well. Pols shut the funk up. So I

507
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: am though interested to see how it actually winds out

508
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: working for him, because it might if if he fails

509
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: to attract a lot of support for the law and

510
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: order thing, then maybe it's a sign that the United

511
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: States is less less far gone than I had feared. Um,

512
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: we'll see, but it's it is worth noting that like

513
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: he's he's campaigning on the same fucking lines that Hitler was,

514
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: and that that does kind of talking about the degree

515
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: to which anti communism was kind of more of it

516
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: was more of what got people to vote for the

517
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: Nazis than anything the Nazis particularly supported. In some cases,

518
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: you know, obviously it differed between like the class of

519
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: people who are voting for him, But a lot of

520
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: folks supported the Nazis because they hated the Communists and

521
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: not because they were all on board with everything the

522
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: Nazis was, which which one of the big things that

523
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: I think is so irresponsible about the way our schools

524
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: teach about Hitler is they they talk about him and

525
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: the Nazis as if they were swept into power by

526
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: a wave of mass support spurred on by like the

527
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: desperate circumstances of the Great Depression, right, Like the picture

528
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: I had of it was like you see, you get

529
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: like two or three paragraphs about how the Weimar Republic's

530
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: economy was shipped that one of those pictures of like

531
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: a lady with a wheelbarrow full of of of Deutsche marks,

532
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: and then like um and then it's like and then

533
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: Hitler was elected because things were so bad, so many

534
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: people were out of work, everyone was desperate, and he

535
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: promised to to fix things. And that's not what swept

536
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: him into power. Actually, UM this idea that like there

537
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: were all these starving unemployed workers who swept Hitler into

538
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: power um is a historical UM. Workers were not the

539
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: Nazi Party's core of support. And I actually found a

540
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: very fascinating two thousand eight analysis of German voting behavior

541
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: from Princeton and the res searchers looked at the voting

542
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: patterns of unemployed workers and blue collar workers who were

543
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: at in Germany at the time, and they were looking

544
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: specifically at unemployed workers and blue collar workers who were

545
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: at high risk of losing their jobs. And they found

546
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: that among this population, quote, when the unemployed opposed the government,

547
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: they turned primarily to the communists, whose parties catered directly

548
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: to them, not the Nazis. Moreover, the Nazis promoted autonomy, entrepreneurship,

549
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: and private property ideas which were not directed to the unemployed.

550
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: So these like these poor starving workers didn't turn out

551
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: for the Nazis in large numbers. Instead, one of the

552
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: Nazis strongest basis of support, and in fact their strongest

553
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: base of support among Germans who were actually hurt by

554
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: the economic downturn, So not like the wealthy or anything.

555
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: Their strongest base of support among like Germans who were

556
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: hurt by the Great Depression were small time bosses um,

557
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: a category of people that the study authors described as

558
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: the working poor quote. This is a phrase used in

559
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: the field of American politics, within political science, and within sociology,

560
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: but it has not been used previously to describe by

561
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: our Germany. We use it because the groups described this

562
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: way we're indeed working, and they were poor despite having

563
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: other important characteristics. The group that fits this description most

564
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: directly are the self employed, the independent artisans, shopkeepers, small farmers, lawyers,

565
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: et cetera. Most accounts assume the self employed were fervent

566
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: supporters of the Nazis. These individuals were hurt economically by

567
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: the depression, but they because but because they own their firms,

568
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: they were at relatively low risk of unemployment. Instead, bad

569
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: economic times would merely mean that they would make less money,

570
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: often a lot less. So it was not of the

571
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: people who got fucked by the depression. It was not

572
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: the people who were starving in the streets. It was

573
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: the people whose small businesses suddenly weren't allowing them to

574
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: purchase luxuries. Those were the people who really turned out

575
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: for the Nazis. And again, reading that number one is

576
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: completely counter to what I learned in high school about

577
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: how Hitler got elected. That it was it was the

578
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: small business owners who were like some of his most

579
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: reliable supporters. But it also jells a lot with some

580
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: ship that I saw this summer at the start of

581
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: the anti lockdown protests in Oregon's capital Salem, a small

582
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: business owner named Lindsay Graham ironic name a lady um.

583
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: She received a fifteen thousand dollar fine for reopening her

584
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: hair salon and violation of the state's law about COVID.

585
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: And she immediately like drew in this like tsunami of

586
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: right wing support, and all of these far right militia

587
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: type started rallying at her salon with guns and stuff. Um,

588
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: And it was this, you know, it was a grift

589
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: for her. She raised more than seventy thousand dollars during

590
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: her like two or three days in the limelight. But

591
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: I think she's a really good example of the kind

592
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: of working class people who field Hitler's rise, not down

593
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: and out starving poor, not laborers living paycheck to paycheck,

594
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: but little like lower middle and lower middle class business

595
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: owners who were like scared of winding up in the

596
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: same low place as the people who were on unemployment. Right,

597
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,959
Speaker 1: those are the people who embrace fascism most readily. And

598
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: I think that's important. Well, it's the same thing that

599
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: um that happens now that I think you can see

600
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: a lot of anger about on like social media because

601
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 1: you get to see um that older people, UM and

602
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: younger people are having different not just older people and

603
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: younger people are having different opinions and experiences, but it

604
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: breaks down um into marginalized groups being like, oh, so

605
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: you're angry now because your kid can't go to college

606
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: or own a house, or you're angry now that you're

607
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: losing these things, like we've never been able to achieve them,

608
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: you know, So we've always been angry and that's not

609
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: made us right wing, you know. And it's the people

610
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 1: that are insulted that now like they've been taking it

611
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: for granted that the American dream um of you know,

612
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: your children are going to have it better than you, Um,

613
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: they were taking for granted that would happen, and a

614
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: whole bunch of people in society are saying, well, you

615
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: just got here now, but we've always been here. It's

616
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: kind of we've all we've always known that the dream

617
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: was was was horseshit? Like, yeah, welcome to the I mean, well,

618
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: not welcome because you guys are embracing mass murder instead

619
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: of but like whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a good

620
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: line in that Princeton study that I think is important. Um,

621
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: the party active being the Nazi party actively promoted private

622
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: property and so turned off many unemployed who either had

623
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: little private property or generally supported more government intervention in

624
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: the economy. And that's just not the picture. I don't know,

625
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: like was your you were you were Jewish, So maybe

626
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: you've got a better education about the Nazis than I

627
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: did as a as a gentile boy. But like that's

628
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: so different from what I learned in high school. I

629
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: mean I grew up with like a totally different Nazi understanding.

630
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: Initially because um, the U s SR is like obsessed

631
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: with not like Nazis, Like because really, I said, because

632
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of bore the brunt of the

633
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: whole thing, and so yeah, like World War Two is

634
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: still talked about in like a huge amount, and like

635
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: you know, Ukraine or Russia and so growing up, like

636
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: I not only heard from my grandparents and stuff, but

637
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: there was also just a lot of attention being paid

638
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: to it by like the government and schools always. So

639
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: I would feel like by the time I got here,

640
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: I was like I know a lot more about and

641
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 1: like they don't call him Nazis. They say fascists. They

642
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: you know which is but like here, fascists is like

643
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: for anybody, Yeah you know what I mean, And Nazis

644
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: is specifically Nazi Germany. But you grew up, grow up, um,

645
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: Like when I was growing up, you just here for

646
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: sists for scist then it's just Nazi, like Nazi fascists specifically. Yeah, yeah,

647
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot. Yeah, but you were saying as

648
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: like a gentile boil boy, did you like did you

649
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 1: do the whole like an frank mandatory reading in school?

650
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: Did you love that? Yeah? And I feel ways about

651
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: that because I would not have wanted my teenage diary

652
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: to become read by millions of people. But also like

653
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: I don't think it's it's useless that that people do

654
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: read it a lot because she's very sympathetic. I don't.

655
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: I went to the Anne Frank House a few years back,

656
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: and it's a pretty it's a very good museum. I'll

657
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: say that. Like, if you're ever in Amsterdam, check it out.

658
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: Did you ever go to the Museum of Tolerance with

659
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: your like school or anything? We we don't think it

660
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: was called that we went to a Holocaust museum. Yeah, yeah,

661
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like as a Jew, you

662
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: hear a lot, and like by the time you go,

663
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: you're like, I've already seen the the piles of like

664
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: little kids shoes and stuff, and like the purses and

665
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: all of that. So like by the time you go,

666
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: you're like, I've seen like so much horrible shit. Yeah.

667
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe the Jewish thing is you get

668
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 1: a lot more of it. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that

669
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: really fucked me up was I went to Saxonhausen, which

670
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: is one of the very small concentration camps, so not

671
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: a death camp, a concentrate. A lot of people died there, obviously,

672
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: but not like you know, there's a difference between the

673
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: death camps and the concert saxon Housen was like was

674
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: it was up mainly for political prisoners, although a number

675
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: of Jewish people wound up there too, and they had

676
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: we were there number one, and like the dead of winter,

677
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: so like seeing the tiny little uniforms, the threadbare uniforms

678
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: that they had to wear, and like being out there

679
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 1: in like a German winter was like, oh my god.

680
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: But they led us to these like this, the solitary

681
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: confinement cells, which were holes in the ground with steel

682
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 1: grates over them, and you could still see bloodstained marks

683
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: in the concrete where people had tried to claw their

684
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: way up. Um, like that was like one of that.

685
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: That was like the thing that um stuck with you

686
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: has stuck with me the most that I've physically seen

687
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: as evidence of Holocaust. Yeah, um, okay, back to the

688
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 1: little Nazis. But first first, it's a really awkward time

689
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: for ad break. You know, who won't put political and

690
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: racial prisoners into a debt note. Okay, that's not a

691
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: good way toly dads. How do we you know, speaking

692
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: of private property, speaking of earning things, Yeah, here are

693
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: some things you can earn. We're back. So we had

694
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: a little we went on a little bit of I

695
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: think a valuable, valuable tangent there. But but I was

696
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: talking about that, you know how small business owners were

697
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: a huge core of support for the Nazis, And obviously

698
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: this is just like one of the demographics they went through.

699
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that Princeton study found is

700
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: that kind of while a lot of bad historians try

701
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: to focus on how like like like, how surprising it

702
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: was that the Nazis one, when these Princeton folks like

703
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: because they compared the election that brought Hitler to power

704
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: and from our Germany two dozens and dozens of other

705
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: democratic elections throughout like a century of democratic elections in

706
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: the United States and elsewhere, and so compared them to

707
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: how other countries elections performed during like economic collapses, and

708
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: found that like, no, no, no, all of the trends

709
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: in Germany were basically the same. This was a very

710
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: normal election with an abnormal candidate. Um. But it wasn't nothing.

711
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: Nothing different happened in Germany. They reacted the same way

712
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 1: as democratic voters always do. But there was a Hitler running,

713
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, um, and that the Trump factor before exactly

714
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: we could not have imagined it. Nope, And now that

715
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: it's happening. We still can't believe it, and it's still

716
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: pretty for years and we're still every day reach any

717
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: level of being surprised and like and also like of

718
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 1: the governments like changing just because like no one knew

719
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: you had to put in rules about this kind of thing.

720
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: No one expected that this would happen. Yeah, and this

721
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: is one of those things that like there's a value

722
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: that's non zero. I don't think it's something obviously it's

723
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 1: something we cannot rely on, but there's a value that's

724
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: non zero in folks like Joe Biden being like believing

725
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: in civility, because as soon as someone who comes along

726
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: who doesn't all of these other these other traditions that

727
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: we've counted on to keep us safe collapse and it

728
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: turns out that there's nothing protecting us, which is why

729
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be relying on them and the way that

730
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: Joe Biden does. But there's not a zero value in

731
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: everyone deciding not to be complete ship to each other.

732
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: Civility has its purpose, is what I'm saying. Although, yeah,

733
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: if only one team plays by the rules exactly, click

734
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 1: that it doesn't really work. Yeah, so we're talking about

735
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: that salon owner in Salem, Oregon, who became like a

736
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 1: bunch of armed militia people started rallying and all getting haircuts.

737
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: And one of the people who like supported her grift

738
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: and and showed up to get like a very public

739
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: haircut as part of his kind of campaign was Joey Gibson,

740
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: who's the head of a right wing street gang called

741
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: Patriot Prairies, very closely affiliated with the Proud Boys, with

742
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: other far right militia groups. Um. And you know, it's

743
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: it's well, we'll talk about other people like him, because

744
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,240
Speaker 1: he's he's similar to some of the little Nazi folks too,

745
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: and in some ways that are interesting. I I think

746
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 1: one of the things that's interesting about that Princeton study

747
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: is when you're kind of looking at it points out

748
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: that a lot of people voted for the Nazis for

749
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: reasons that we're not the stuff that everybody knows about

750
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: the Nazis, that weren't like their theories about arianism and

751
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: like the master race and like the quasi spiritual stuff

752
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: about Hitler is the embodiment of the German people. Um.

753
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: It was because they thought that he'd make the economy

754
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: better and that their small business would improve It was

755
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: because they were scared of the communists who wanted to

756
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: take their stuff, and he said that he would get

757
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: rid of the communists. It was for all of these

758
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: things that like, we're not any of the fun Nazi stuff.

759
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: It was none of like the kukie shit that that

760
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: actually got the Nazis elected. Um and I I yeah,

761
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a quote from Meyer's book here

762
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: that I think is very relevant. None of my friends

763
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: was the least interested in Nazi race theory as such,

764
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: not even the tailor or the bill collector, who are

765
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: two of them, more like uh firm Nazis. Five of

766
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: the ten of them laughed when they spoke of it,

767
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: including the cabinet maker. That was nonsense, said Harry Klingelhoffer,

768
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: which is the cabinet maker for the s S and

769
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: the universities. Look at the shape of my head, it's

770
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: brought as a barn side. Look at my brunette wife.

771
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: Do you suppose we're not Germans? No, that they could

772
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: teach to the s S and the university students. They

773
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: would believe everything that made them great, and the university

774
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: students would believe anything complicated. The professors too, Have you

775
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: seen the race purity chart. Yes, I said, well, then

776
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: you know a whole system we Germans like systems. You know,

777
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: it all fitted together, so it was science system and

778
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: science if you only looked at the circles black and

779
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: white and shaded and not at real people. Such dumb

780
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: stuff they couldn't teach to us little men. They didn't

781
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: even try. And that reminds me of a lot of stuff,

782
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: including like some things my dad said about how you

783
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: can't you shouldn't take Trump seriously, you shouldn't take him literally. Yeah.

784
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: Everyone in the beginning said, oh, he's just saying that

785
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: stuff to be controversial and he's not going to do

786
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: any of that. Do you really think he's going to

787
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: do that stuff, the stuff he's saying, And the answer

788
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: is yes, yeah. Oh, this Nazi race theory, it's just

789
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: for it's just for these like weirdos at school and

790
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 1: intellectuals who like complicated bullshit, like no one really cares

791
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: about it. It's not going to lead to anything. Oh no,

792
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: it led to something, yeah, yeah, but like for for

793
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: the little Nazis, for the people who were critical and

794
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: actually voting Hitler to our like the stability of the

795
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: Reichs Mark had a lot more to do than um

796
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: with you know, race hatred or anything like that, Which

797
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: didn't mean these people weren't racist, they all were. It

798
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: just meant that rather than like actively caring about racism,

799
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: they were people who were very tolerant of racism, which

800
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: I think speaks to a lot of Trump support too, right, Um,

801
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 1: And I think we have to start start definding racism

802
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: is not just like oh, would actively murder some we

803
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: have a different race in the street, but do nothing

804
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 1: while someone else talks about murdering someone else in the street.

805
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: And I think like the difference between um, hearing a

806
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: Trump supporter say like, like, if you're telling me you're

807
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: voting for Trump because of economic policy, that is another

808
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: way of saying that you're a racist because the well

809
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: being of people of other races is less important to

810
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: you than your economic well being. Yeah, you're willing to

811
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: overlook racism so that you will have more money. Right,

812
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: that's racism. We have to not think about it often,

813
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And I'm certainly not saying that these

814
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: people weren't racist. I'm saying that like the type of racist,

815
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: like the way in which they supported the Nazis is

816
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: different than you might than you might expect, um, and

817
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: that you need millions of these people to enable the

818
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: ones who are you know, racists, Yeah, Gateway racists exactly. Um.

819
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: And you see a lot, you see a lot of

820
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: like Trump is really you see a lot of him

821
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: pulling for the same folks. Like in the debate he

822
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 1: brought up people's four oh one ks a lot right

823
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: in the stock market, and those things are not things

824
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: that matter to most people who are going to be

825
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: listening to the show, and to most working people who

826
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: are a lot of them paycheck to paycheck. But it

827
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: matters to the working middle class because that ships their cushion.

828
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 1: That's what keeps them from being paycheck to paycheck. It's

829
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: what stops them from being the poor, is that they

830
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: have those cushions. And you know that's that's who Trump was,

831
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: what Trump was signaling to Um. Yeah now again And

832
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: as we kind of talked about earlier, another one of

833
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: Hitler's appeal to the little Nazis was a promise to

834
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: protect them from the chaos and tumult of like a

835
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: changing world. And that brings me back to Joey Gibson,

836
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: who I was talking about being at that that hairdresser's

837
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: uh kind of fashy anti covid rally. Um. If you

838
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: sit down and listen to one of Gibson's speeches, and

839
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: if you go through like a few years of interviews

840
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: and profiles on the guy or on people like him,

841
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: um who are kind of involved in these right wing

842
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: street movements, you'll be struck by how little they really

843
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: say because there's there's nothing. They don't have anything ideologically

844
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: other than a desire to get into fights with leftists.

845
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: Um So, everything they say is essentially trying to obscure

846
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: the fact that they're just there for the violence. Which

847
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: is a shirt that one of the Proud Boys, who's

848
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: very prominent, Joe Biggs, who met with Lindsay Graham, the

849
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: cong Risman a couple of weeks ago, one of the

850
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: shirts he wears when he goes to Portland says, I'm

851
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: just here for the violence anyway. Um So, And it's

852
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 1: worth noting like now they don't say anti communist. Trump

853
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: doesn't say anti communists as much as he says anti anarchist,

854
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: anti antifa, like that they that's the buzzword now, but

855
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: back in before antifa was as much of a buzzword

856
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: as it is. They were all saying that they were

857
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: anti communists. Trump and all of his all of these

858
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: little street leaders and in fact, Joey Gibson did like

859
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: a stand against Communism rally in Seattle that year, and

860
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: that was like the big buzzword before they realized Antifa

861
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: really sold a lot better. Same with socialism. They was

862
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: like socialism, then communism and then now it's yeah, and

863
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 1: it's the same. It's the same with the Nazis. You know. Um,

864
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: back in Weimar Germany, there were a lot of communists.

865
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: The kp D was one of those popular parties in

866
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: the country, and it grew more powerful every year alongside

867
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: the Nazis. Um right before you know, obviously the Nazis

868
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: through them all in camps after they won. But there

869
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: were actually couple of armed communist uprisings in Bimar Germany

870
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: prior to Hitler rising to power, and like this would

871
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: be like groups of communists occupying large chunks of German cities. Uh.

872
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: They took over a lot of Berlin in nineteen nineteen

873
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: right after the war, like hundreds of like half a

874
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: million of them occupied the city. Um, just through sheer

875
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: weight of numbers and the uprising only ended when thousands

876
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: of fascist paramilitary fighters, the Free Corps, which is kind

877
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: of like the Oath Keepers and the Three Percenters are today,

878
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: invaded Berlin and shot every Communist they could get their

879
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: hands on. And the Free Corps were like a bunch

880
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: of anti communist military veterans, a lot of whom had

881
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: just stepped out of the trenches of World War One

882
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: and like, we're really fucking angry and also dealing with

883
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: wildly untreated PTSD uh and who, Yeah, they got to

884
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: go on regular murders freeze and they're kind of the

885
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: precursors to the essay to the brown Shirts, like the

886
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: Free Corps were are generally seen as a pre Nazi

887
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 1: fascist movement in Germany. Uh, and we certainly have that too.

888
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: You've got a lot of veter arens groups, or you know,

889
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 1: at least people claiming to be veterans, who were defining

890
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: themselves by their resistance to antifa and communism. You got

891
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: Stewart Rhodes of the Oath Keepers, who when that member

892
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: of Patriot Prayer was shot dead by that BLM guy

893
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: who stated, like the Civil Wars started now, right, you

894
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: already you have these networks here too. Again, the same

895
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: thing keeps happening. What I like about it is that

896
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: we learn nothing, not a thing. I mean, that's my

897
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: favorite part. I guess this. Yeah, we'll see, we'll see

898
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 1: what we learned. I see some lessons, although I think

899
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: a lot of why things are somewhat different now might

900
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: just be that, um, like in World War like like,

901
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: like the Nazis benefited from the fact that all of

902
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: their original leaders were like these pretty hardcore veterans, like

903
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: they'd seen some ship, like Hitler would like Hitler would

904
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 1: get into a fucking fist fight with you, Like. None

905
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: of them were scared of getting hurt. None of them

906
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: were scared of like doing violence to people. And um,

907
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: you certainly have a lot of fascists who are willing

908
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: to do violence to people in the United States. But

909
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: I've stood toe to toe with some of these guys

910
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: and in a one on one fight, they're all cowards,

911
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 1: almost all of them. You know, there are some dangerous

912
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: ones out there, but you don't have the density of

913
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: actual combat veterans of people who like went through enough

914
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: ship that they're just they don't give a ship about

915
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: being injured or killed. You don't have as many of

916
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: them as a percentage of the movement as the Germans did.

917
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: And that's I think one of the reasons that they

918
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: haven't been able to move as quickly as they do,

919
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: not have that advantage that the Nazis did, I guess

920
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: Silver Linings, Yeah, I mean it is. I would prefer

921
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 1: that most of the fascists who are talking about wanting

922
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 1: to kill Antifa actually be too scared to get into

923
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: a gunfight, then have them all be completely willing to

924
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: get into a gunfight. Yeah, that's why I said, Silver

925
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: Linings question Mark. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's better than

926
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: we got a little easier than than the Germans had it.

927
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: As I guess what I'm saying, Sophia was like optimism,

928
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: Robert trying to be optimistic here. Yeah, I'm sad. It's

929
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: good stuff. It's good stuff. So yeah, like that was

930
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: that was a big That was like a big part

931
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: of why um Hitler was able to do what he

932
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: did is that he was able to really successfully portray

933
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: himself as the opponent of communism and deteriorating conditions and stuff.

934
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: Um And as Meyer wrote, quote, there was the question

935
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: was not whether communism threatened the country as with the

936
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 1: continuation of deteriorating conditions. It certainly did or soon would.

937
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: The question was whether the Germans were convinced that it did,

938
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 1: and they were. They were so well convinced by such

939
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: means as the Reichstag fire of nineteen thirty three that

940
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: the Nazis were able to ultimately establish anti communism as

941
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: a religion immune from inquiry and defensible by definition alone.

942
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: When in nineteen thirty seven the Pope attack the errors

943
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: of national socialism, the Nazi government's defensive its policies consisted

944
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: of a note accusing the Pope of having dealt a

945
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: dangerous blow to the defense front against the world menace

946
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: of Bolshevism. And I find that interesting too, because it's

947
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: another thing that that is happening again. Right like Trump

948
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: and the right are repeatedly attacking the Pope as a

949
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: socialist and a communist. UM. I found an article by

950
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 1: a far right Catholic journalist who seems to be a

951
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 1: straight up Catholic fascist named George Newmeyer. UM called uh.

952
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: He read a book called The Political Pope, and he

953
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: told CBS, Pope Francis is a socialist and an opponent

954
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, so you know you're seeing I don't know,

955
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,919
Speaker 1: it's weird to me the which the same things keep

956
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: happening cheer for, like the Pope, the Pope and the

957
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: post Office times. Well, I've always liked the Pope post Office.

958
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: I didn't have anything against it, but I just didn't

959
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: know what to like. He's so vocally pro Yeah, resistance heroes,

960
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: the postal Office. Um, yeah, and yeah. I mean, I

961
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: think the thing that I found most striking about that

962
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: segment from Myers book is the idea that the Nazis

963
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: established on anti communism as a religion, because it's something

964
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: I never really thought about it in those terms. But

965
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: I think in my years of documenting the far right

966
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: and attending these protests and street fights with groups like

967
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: the Proud Boys, I have like actually watched that happen,

968
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:26,919
Speaker 1: and I think there's actually you can make a strong

969
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: argument that that's part of what we're saying with Q

970
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: and On, because I think Q and On very much

971
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: is a religious movement. It's a cult, and and it's

972
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: a cult that presupposes, number one, all left wing foes

973
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump are Marxists, and that they're all satanic

974
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: baby eaters, trying to kill the United States like it.

975
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 1: You're seeing there is an anti communist religion in the

976
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: United States right now, and it might be the fastest

977
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: growing religion in the country. Um and yeah, it just

978
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: happens differently, but it's the same, it's the same idea.

979
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: You know. I think that's really um unsettling to me.

980
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: I guess, oh yeah, I feel great. Yeah, I'm not

981
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 1: wild about it. So when you have a religion, um,

982
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: whether it's an you know that religions, anti communism or

983
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: something else, any religion that's going to really take off

984
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: needs martyrs, right, Every religion that's that's worth its salt

985
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: has some martyrs. You gotta have. You gotta have some

986
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 1: dead people to look up to. And Hitler's anti communist

987
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: cult acquired a number of martyrs on its rise to power,

988
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: and none of them was more influential than a young

989
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 1: man named Horst Vessel. Have you ever heard a Horst?

990
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, did you say horse vessel? Horst horsed Vessel

991
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: w E S s E L. And the horst is

992
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 1: h O R s T because I thought h O

993
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: R s E v E S s E L. No, No,

994
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: no kind of it does sound a bit like that shape.

995
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: Its Horst Wessel, but I think it was pronounced Vessel

996
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: because it's it's German with the the ws and ship.

997
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I don't know if you'd call

998
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: a Horst a little Nazi because he was actually a

999
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: very radicalized Nazi street fighter who had dreams of being

1000
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 1: a big man in the movement. Medium sized what would

1001
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: you say? Yeah, he was a medium sized Nazi when

1002
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: he died, Um and yeah. I want to I want

1003
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: to read a quote about Horse from the book Hitler's

1004
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: True Believers by Robert Gladalley, because I think the story

1005
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: of Horse Vessel is really worth telling, particularly in the

1006
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: context of these groups like the Proud Boys. Quote. The

1007
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: essay attracted activists like Horse Vessel, born in nineteen o

1008
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 1: seven and thus too young to have served in the war,

1009
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: who left a record of his political awakening that he

1010
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: wrote in nineteen twenty nine. He said that between ages

1011
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 1: fourteen and eighteen he had been a bundas a member

1012
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: of the middle class youth group of involved in wandering

1013
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: and sports like wandering is hiking. It was the Germans

1014
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: had just discovered hiking in this period. In fact, nearly

1015
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: all members of the essay, the Brown Shirts in nineteen

1016
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: thirty three, had been in such a youth group. At

1017
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: the same time, Vessel was involved in the Black Reich's

1018
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: Fair the underground Army, which is like you had the

1019
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: German Army, which was limited to a hundred thousand men,

1020
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: and because it was so limited, you had this giant

1021
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: was essentially a militia. Was like all of the different

1022
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: militia networks we have in the United States together you

1023
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 1: had this illegal army. Um. So Vessel was a member

1024
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,240
Speaker 1: of this underground army. He practiced shooting and even carried

1025
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: a pistol. His worldview perceived a division between US and them,

1026
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: with the US including his comrades, the Fatherland, the Vulcans

1027
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: and the German and them meaning the Communists, social Democrats

1028
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: and Jews. Such emotional experiences were part of Vessel's life

1029
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: before he ever became a member of the n s

1030
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: d a P. In the essay, he said that what

1031
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: the Nazis had was an idea, which is to say,

1032
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: something that the other paramilitary groups completely missed. And that's

1033
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:40,399
Speaker 1: one of the things that scares me, because I think

1034
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: that we might be seeing the collapse of Trumps. Um,

1035
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 1: it's too early to say. The fact that he disavowed

1036
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: the Proud Boys and they didn't immediately say he's just

1037
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 1: doing this because he had to, like they got pissed,

1038
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: makes me think that UM, aspects of what he Trump

1039
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: has built, because he's bad at being an authoritarian, maybe

1040
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: collapsing at all of the infrastructure has been assembled in

1041
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: is there. And I think, like the thing that scares

1042
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: me is the person who's going to pick up what's

1043
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 1: essentially a gun lying on the table next, Because it's

1044
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: what Vessel says, when somebody comes around, who who has

1045
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: the charisma that Trump has to unite the group that

1046
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 1: Trump has united, and also the intelligence to wield them properly. Um.

1047
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 1: And that that would include having what Trump is am lacks,

1048
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: which is a meaningful idea that can actually weld more

1049
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,800
Speaker 1: than the coalition that Trump got together. UM. That worries

1050
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: me a lot about somebody like Tom Cotton, you know,

1051
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: whoever comes next and is better at than Trump at

1052
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: at doing this. UM. I don't know, that's something that

1053
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 1: worries me. So like our little Nazis, Horse came from

1054
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: the middle class, but the working middle class. His father

1055
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 1: was actually a right wing preacher. Um who like a

1056
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,720
Speaker 1: Protestant right wing preacher who died young gets sick Um

1057
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's it's it's interesting horse does a guy

1058
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 1: to study Um? And he was shot dead on February

1059
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty. And the exact reality of what happened is

1060
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: shrouded in rumor from the beginning. At the time, there

1061
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: were rumors because he was living with a former prostitute,

1062
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 1: so there were rumors that he was a pimp and

1063
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: that he was killed by the former pimp of this

1064
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: woman he was living with. The actual reality is a

1065
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: lot mercury, which seems to be true, is that his

1066
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: landlady kind of put a hit hit out on him,

1067
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: so he was he was living with his a small

1068
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: apart yo yo, I'm sorry a landlady murdering their own tenant. Well,

1069
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: she made for him to die like bad of a tenant.

1070
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: Was he must have been a tap dancer or some

1071
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: ship because this is why people get those like walks,

1072
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: but nobody can get in. It's it's a weird story.

1073
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: So like when I say that she was his landlady,

1074
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: they were all living in the same apartment, so he

1075
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: was renting a room from her um, and she was

1076
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: fine with him and didn't care he was a Nazi,

1077
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: even though she was a widow and her former husband

1078
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: had been like a Communist street fighter, but she she

1079
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: was a political She was fine with him being a Nazi,

1080
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: but when he brought his girlfriend to live with him,

1081
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: she got really pissed at him, and so she wanted

1082
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: to force him out of the out of the apartment.

1083
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: And so she went to a bar where a bunch

1084
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: of her husband's old not or a communist street fighting

1085
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: friends hung out, and she was like, hey, will you

1086
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: help me clear this guy out? And they were like, well,

1087
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: you let a Nazi live with you, We don't really

1088
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: give a ship. But then they were like, well, but

1089
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: it's this the Nazi is horsed vessel. And he was

1090
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 1: a pretty prominent member of like the Nazi street fighting

1091
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: groups because there's not there was not in nineties at

1092
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: this time. There was not a lot of money in

1093
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: being a Nazi street fighter at this time. You know,

1094
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: like he was not he was not raking it in.

1095
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: He was not like a good grifter. I think he

1096
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: had those ambitions, but he was really just like he was.

1097
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: He was like a Joey Gibson type. Right, Um, he

1098
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: was not good at making money from it, and uh

1099
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 1: so he he Again, isn't clear what happens, but as

1100
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: Lanley goes to like to these Red Front fighters and

1101
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 1: when they mentioned Horst's name, they're like, okay, well we'll

1102
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: beat the guy up. And instead of beating him up,

1103
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: they shoot him to death. And what happens is very unclear.

1104
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: The guy who actually kills him, when he goes to trial,

1105
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: maintains that he fired out of self defense because he

1106
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: entered horsehouse with a gun, and he says that Vessel

1107
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: pulled a gun of his own. Um, and maybe, uh,

1108
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible. Uh. The the author of one of

1109
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: the books that I've read on this thinks that it's

1110
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: most likely that that the guy who shot him fired

1111
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: first and fired as soon as he recognized Horse in

1112
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,919
Speaker 1: the doorway. Um, but it is weird that he only

1113
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: fired once, which he probably wouldn't have done if it

1114
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: had been a hit. So you get, it's very uncertain

1115
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: what happened. But knew that the shot was good, right,

1116
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: it was a good hit. No, yeah, yeah, why did

1117
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: you have would you need more bullets? Because usually when

1118
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: people yeah, they just kind of spray. If you're not

1119
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: a good hit man, yeah, this guy was your job.

1120
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: You just calm and it's one shot and you came.

1121
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: But I guess the point. These guys weren't good. They

1122
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: were like drunk straight fighters. Sorry, I care more about

1123
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: murder than you do, Robert. Let's feel to carry it

1124
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: out properly. It's just that feels like a weird comic book.

1125
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: The reality of what happened matters less than how it

1126
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: was interpreted by the Nazis. Because Joseph Gebbels gets ahold

1127
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: of this story and he immediately declares like he declares

1128
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: Vessel to have been like a martyr to the Hitlerist cause,

1129
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: and it clears this to have been a Communist hit

1130
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: Um as opposed to it was kind of more like

1131
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. But he declares him like a victory

1132
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: of the evil Communists and Vessels who have been like

1133
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: a young hero of the Nazi movement. They find a

1134
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: poem in the horse's house that he had written about

1135
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: like uh, the Nazi Party, and they said it to

1136
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: song Um and it becomes the official theme song like

1137
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: theme music of the Nazi Party, and it is for

1138
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: the remainder of the time that the Nazis exists, the

1139
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: horse Vessel ed I think Lightnings song or whatever. Yeah,

1140
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, who won't become who didn't write for the Nazis,

1141
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: the Nazi song, none of the following good I told

1142
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: so few years ago. No ads from horse Vessel, we

1143
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: will not accept them. And the fact that he's been

1144
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: dead for close to a century has certainly helped us

1145
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: in that very proud that we've stuck to that line.

1146
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: We're back, okay, so we're we're talking about old horse

1147
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: horse vessel. So uh yeah, Girbels declares him to be,

1148
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,919
Speaker 1: you know, a martyr to the Hitlerist cause and all

1149
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 1: this good stuff. A poem, his poems set to music

1150
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: comes the theme song of the old Nazis. Um, And

1151
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: they have a big, huge Google's plays for them to

1152
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: have like a massive funeral in imitation of like the

1153
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: state funerals that are given the national heroes. For this

1154
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 1: kid who was just like a gang member basically um

1155
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: and of course the rote a poem. So I would

1156
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: prefer it if you update your description of him as

1157
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 1: a Nazi slash poet, Nazi poet gang member. So his

1158
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 1: funeral is briefly interrupted by some communists who throw stones

1159
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: at the Nazis, not really a lot, like literally just

1160
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: a couple of stones, but the Nazis play that up

1161
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: to is like, look at how horrible these communists are.

1162
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 1: They won't even let us have a funeral. And it works.

1163
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: Horse death radicalizes a lot of Germans. For the Nazis.

1164
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: It's considered to be like his funeral and everything are

1165
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: considered to be sizeable inflection points for the Nazi cause

1166
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: it really kind of spells a death blow for like

1167
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 1: the left wing street fighting movements, um, you know the

1168
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 1: they're the anti fascist movements, not all of which were communists,

1169
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: because right there's the German Iron in Front, which is

1170
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: like the social democratic street fighting gang, which is where

1171
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: you get if you've ever seen the three arrows spray

1172
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: painted anywhere, that's the Iron Front symbol, and the arrows

1173
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: each represent anti UH, anti church um, anti UH communist

1174
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: and anti fascist, right like it's it's like it's it's

1175
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: it was a whole bunch of things they were. They

1176
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: were again, so like yeah, the the Iron Front um

1177
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 1: like all, but but they all get like kind of

1178
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: looped lumped in as as communists and socialist by the

1179
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: Nazis and Horsts death and funeral kind of spells the

1180
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: end for them. And I I feel like everyone who's

1181
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: heard this, if you're at all familiar with anything I've

1182
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: been talking about, you're probably already comparing what happened to

1183
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: Horst to what happened to Aaron J. Danielson, the member

1184
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: of Patriot Prayer who was shot dead last month in

1185
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: Portland on his way home from a pro Trump rally.

1186
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: Right Like, you have to see some of the comparisons, um,

1187
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: Danielson was killed by a pro BLM activist who had

1188
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: declared himself a hundred percent ANTIFA on social media, although

1189
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: I can tell you he had a lot of really

1190
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: negative dealings with a lot of anti fascists. I know

1191
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: because he was. Anyway, it's a complicated story, um. Now,

1192
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: Immediately after Danielson was shot, the President began recasting him

1193
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: as a right wing hero, and national media gave long

1194
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: interviews to uh Cocattle, Patriot Prayer members and Patriot Prayer associates,

1195
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,919
Speaker 1: people that I've been covering for years and never thought

1196
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: I would see on national news, like Hayley Adams, who's

1197
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: a local white supremacist. UM wild that all these people

1198
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: wound up on TV UM, and of course the Proud

1199
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: Boys took this as an opportunity to announce a justice

1200
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:35,640
Speaker 1: for Jay Rally, which was the thing that we just

1201
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: got over and survived in Portland. UM. And obviously like

1202
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 1: it's it's we're very lucky that UM things have not

1203
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't. It seems like maybe I don't know why

1204
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: it is, but but Danielson's death, UM did not turn

1205
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 1: into the kind of thing horse Vessel's death dead. UM,

1206
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,040
Speaker 1: it didn't get that kind of traction, you know, I

1207
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: don't I don't know if that it's due to aspects

1208
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 1: of our media culture that nothing gets that much traction,

1209
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 1: that that Trump is too much of a narcissist to

1210
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 1: really let the focus be on anyone else. UM. I

1211
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: don't know why it is, but you can see that

1212
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: when I when I when that first happened, UM, I

1213
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: was worried that we were going to see that because

1214
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: the reality is that actually there's a lot of similarities

1215
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: between danielson shooting and horse shooting, including the fact that

1216
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: Danielson also had a gun, Like he was prowling through

1217
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 1: the streets of Portland with a nine millimeter handgun and

1218
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 1: seventy six rounds of ammunition loaded into extended magazines, which

1219
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 1: is not like what you carry for self defense. You know,

1220
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: maybe you don't, okay, but there's like seventies six people

1221
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 1: at least that hate me. So I never leave the

1222
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 1: house with less than seventy six bullets. I mean, I

1223
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 1: I'm I feel comfortable walking out doors with usually between

1224
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: twelve and twenty four rounds of nine millimeter And I'm

1225
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: pretty paranoid. Um, And you are well more liked than me,

1226
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: way more well liked. Sorry, there are those some similarities, UM,

1227
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 1: some weird ones, including the fact that, like the ryanod,

1228
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: the guy who shot Danielson claimed that it was in

1229
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 1: self defense, that like one of the people with him

1230
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 1: pulled a knife, and that you know, they all had firearms,

1231
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 1: and like they did all have firearms. There's other reports

1232
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: that one of the people with it it's it's it's again.

1233
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: It's this kind of like this murky shooting that you

1234
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: don't really know exactly what happened, and it it gets

1235
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: used politically, and I guess we're lucky enough that it

1236
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to have worked the way the way Horse

1237
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,919
Speaker 1: Vessel's death did. Um. Maybe it's because Jay didn't write

1238
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: any poems. I don't know. Um, maybe no landladies were involved. Definitely,

1239
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: no landladies involved. I do feel confidence state like it's

1240
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: entirely there's a very good chance that the guy who

1241
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 1: shot Danielson that it was like a targeted hit. Like

1242
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, Um, some of the pictures do indicate that.

1243
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's a complicated it's a complicated story. But

1244
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: I couldn't help thinking about it whenever I think about

1245
01:06:56,040 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: the story of Horse Wessel. Um. Now, the yeah, Horst

1246
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: is again, you said it right. He's kind of a

1247
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 1: medium Nazi and he believed strongly in fascism. But the

1248
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: kind of people who were moved by his death and

1249
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 1: who like sort of switched again nineteen thirties pretty late

1250
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: to get on board with the Nazis. But the kind

1251
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: of people who were who were frightened as a result

1252
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: of his death of the Communists and turned towards the Nazis.

1253
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: They weren't true believers in the same way most of

1254
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: them weren't believers, you know, the little Nazis weren't really

1255
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: believers in anything but their own comfort and security. Um,

1256
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: they were you know, the thing that united them is

1257
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: that they were malleable enough to get behind fascism when

1258
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: they thought that it was the thing that would keep

1259
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 1: them safe and secure in their position in society. And

1260
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: there's a there's a really good line from one of

1261
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: Myer's Nazi friends, a cabinet maker named Klingelhofer. Uh quote.

1262
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 1: Inside the system, you see the benefits outside it. When

1263
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 1: you are not benefited by it, you see the faults.

1264
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,479
Speaker 1: I suppose that's the way it is in Russian. Now.

1265
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: That's the way it is everywhere always, is it? Not?

1266
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 1: For all this we thank our leader. The kids said

1267
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: in school, how they said for this, we thank America.

1268
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 1: If communism comes, they'll say for this, we thank Stalin.

1269
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: That's the way men are. I find that unsettling and interesting.

1270
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 1: And it kind of goes to the point that, like,

1271
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: while the Nazis never attained a majority in any electoral um,

1272
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: like since as soon as Hitler came to power and

1273
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,679
Speaker 1: started actually delivering on some of the things he'd promised

1274
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 1: to them, including jobs in a rebuilt military and retaking

1275
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 1: the Studente land and stuff, everyone got behind him. And

1276
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 1: they didn't get behind him because they were convinced about

1277
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 1: like the again, the stuff everyone obsesses over, the weird

1278
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: racial theories the Nazi had, Nazis had they got behind

1279
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: him because they were inside the system and it was

1280
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: protecting them, and so would most people, which is fun

1281
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: to think about. So I mean to me, I guess

1282
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that strikes me is like, it's

1283
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: very easy to make anything sound like the worst thing

1284
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 1: in the world. Umah. And it of course it makes

1285
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 1: sense that it's interchangeable for people, whether something is the

1286
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:11,760
Speaker 1: worst thing in the world or the best thing in

1287
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 1: the world. Um I can tell you someone that has

1288
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 1: lived under communism that there were some great things about it,

1289
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: like socialized medicine, you know. So I'm not gonna say, uh,

1290
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say like really radical as ship, because

1291
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty easy to see, um, when you

1292
01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 1: live in a system even from outside that everybody like

1293
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:36,600
Speaker 1: has in America been taught like forever communism is like

1294
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: the biggest threat. It's so horrible, so nobody likes to

1295
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: hear that there's like, you know, even the most terrible

1296
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: thing has some good things about it. And then I

1297
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 1: think it clouds people's judgment to think that like even

1298
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: the thing that they love could eventually become terrible. But

1299
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 1: that's just how it is. Yep, yep, yep. And it's

1300
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 1: like it's a thing we all need to keep in

1301
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 1: mind because like, once you're if you're protected by the

1302
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 1: system in the way that like we all we both

1303
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: are currently as white people to a degree protected by

1304
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 1: the system. Um, it's very easy to turn that into

1305
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: ignoring what happens to people outside the system, because not

1306
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 1: doing that, you know, when when you care about people

1307
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 1: at the border, outside the border of your system, then

1308
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: that puts you at risk because like then you're then

1309
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: you're upsetting the apple cart. And that's uh, you know,

1310
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: that actually brings me to what I think might be

1311
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,000
Speaker 1: one of the most unsettling parts of Meyer's book, which

1312
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: is it's the story of an anti fascist activist who

1313
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: became a member of the Nazi Party. UM. A friend

1314
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: of his name, Heinrich Hilda Brandt, who was the school teacher,

1315
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 1: and he joined the Nazi Party late in nineteen seven.

1316
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 1: So hither have been and in power about as long

1317
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: as Trump has been when this guy joins the Nazi

1318
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 1: Party and Hilda Brandt was not even really a convert

1319
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: to the Nazi part party uh. He again had been

1320
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 1: a Nazi anti Nazi street activist, and he eventually converted

1321
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:08,719
Speaker 1: because he was he was afraid for his own life.

1322
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 1: Um Meyer writes, quote, he may not have been the

1323
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,639
Speaker 1: only one of my ten friends who was afraid not

1324
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 1: to join, but he was the only one of them

1325
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 1: who knew then and now and says so that fear

1326
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 1: was his reason. Fear and advantage. But how he said

1327
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,839
Speaker 1: is one to separate them. He had been an anti Nazi,

1328
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,760
Speaker 1: an active moderate democrat in East Prussia before he came

1329
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 1: quietly to Hessa in ninety five, and his past uneasily

1330
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 1: buried got a job teaching literature. So that's really scary

1331
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 1: to me to think about somebody who could join the

1332
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 1: Nazi Party as an anti Nazi activist knowing it's the

1333
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: wrong thing to do, purely forced because you're scared for

1334
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:49,760
Speaker 1: your own life, Because a lot of people will do that.

1335
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:51,760
Speaker 1: A lot of people who have come out into the

1336
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 1: streets now if things really went as bad as they might,

1337
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 1: would do that because at the end of the day,

1338
01:11:57,240 --> 01:11:59,479
Speaker 1: that's what people do, is try to protect themselves in

1339
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:05,240
Speaker 1: their family. Um. Yeah, And I guess that's not so

1340
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: surprising that someone would join a party like that to

1341
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:11,800
Speaker 1: protect their own life. What what might be more surprising

1342
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: and definitely is more unsettling, is that once Hildebrant got

1343
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 1: inside the Nazi Party and he found he kind of

1344
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: liked fascism. I was just gonna say, did you fall

1345
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 1: in love? This the classic meet cute romantic comedy. Yeah,

1346
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 1: I could never. Oh my god, I fascism Actually yeah,

1347
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 1: still starring Hugh Grant. I'm gonna read another. I'm going

1348
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 1: to read another quote from Meyer's book here. Perhaps he

1349
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 1: said it was because I wanted unconsciously to justify what

1350
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 1: I had done. If so, I succeeded. But I say

1351
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 1: it now too, and I know it now. There were

1352
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 1: good things, great things in the system, and the system

1353
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:56,479
Speaker 1: was itself was evil. For instance, Meyer asked, you mean

1354
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,639
Speaker 1: about the evils. Hildebrant responded, No, I know about those

1355
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 1: said fire about the good things, the great things. Hildebrand responded,

1356
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: perhaps I should make it singular instead of plural, the

1357
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 1: good thing. For the first time in my life, I

1358
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: felt I was really the peer of men who, in

1359
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 1: the Kaiser's time and in the Fimar time, had always

1360
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:17,000
Speaker 1: belonged to classes lower or higher than my own men,

1361
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 1: whom one had always looked down on or up to,

1362
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 1: but never at. In the labor Front, which is like

1363
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 1: the Nazi Workers Organization, I represented the Teachers Association. I

1364
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 1: came to know such people at first hand, to know

1365
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,919
Speaker 1: their lives and to have them know mine. Even in America,

1366
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: perhaps I have never been there. I suspect that the

1367
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: teacher who talks about the common people has never known one,

1368
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: really known one, not even if he himself came from

1369
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: among them, as I with an army officer as a father,

1370
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: did not. National socialism broke down that separation, that class distinction.

1371
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: Democracy such democracy as we had didn't do it and

1372
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:55,760
Speaker 1: is not doing it now. That's interesting to me that

1373
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 1: that's what brought this guy on board with Nazism is

1374
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: the feeling, as he described, of absolute equality. Uh. And

1375
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 1: he told Meyer that like, really the thing that got

1376
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: him was my inferiors accepted me. That's so sad. Yeah,

1377
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 1: also similar to what people found in communism. Yeah. Yeah.

1378
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 1: This breaking down of these barriers that were incredibly stressful

1379
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 1: to keep up in German society was you know, to

1380
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 1: talk about extents that we can't make comparisons between what

1381
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 1: happened in Germany and what's happening here. There were actually

1382
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:33,800
Speaker 1: like hard barrier if you were a professor in in

1383
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 1: Germany in this period of time, there was almost an

1384
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:40,320
Speaker 1: absolute wall of social separation between you and any kind

1385
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:43,679
Speaker 1: of working person. They would see you as elevated beyond

1386
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 1: being someone they could just talk to and likewise, and

1387
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: that was a thing that Nazism did was kind of

1388
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,919
Speaker 1: try to build this this this this people's racial community

1389
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 1: Bolkska mine shaft, that that unified the people who were

1390
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: in together in one group. And this this school teacher,

1391
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:05,520
Speaker 1: who again knew enough to be an anti fascist activist,

1392
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:09,360
Speaker 1: founded intoxicating once he was inside, found being a part

1393
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:12,480
Speaker 1: of this in group to be irresistible and missed it afterwards,

1394
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,600
Speaker 1: even though he knew all of his life that the

1395
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 1: Nazi Party was evil. That that's fucked up. That's so. Yeah,

1396
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:26,439
Speaker 1: it's not great, no perceived equalities. A hell of a drug,

1397
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: it is. It is. And you think about, like I've

1398
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 1: been to a Trump rally, like and you you feel

1399
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 1: that kind of social atmosphere there, you know, it just

1400
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 1: seems like you're sick of being bullied, so you become

1401
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 1: the bully. Yeah, And it's also this feeling that the

1402
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 1: people who are as opposed to this feeling that like

1403
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 1: the people in charge are like are are in some

1404
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 1: way august that there's something, there's something like special and

1405
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,320
Speaker 1: powerful about the offices. They hold this feeling that they're

1406
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 1: they're just like you. It's like when everybody made fun

1407
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 1: of Trump's fast food feast for those football players. I'm

1408
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:08,719
Speaker 1: sure the football players wish they had gotten some fancy food,

1409
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:13,360
Speaker 1: but like Trump's voters loved that because it it made

1410
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,080
Speaker 1: it brought him down to their level. He's good at that.

1411
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: Like people wonder how can a billionaire like attract those people,

1412
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 1: It's because a ship like that it worked. Um yeah,

1413
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:27,679
Speaker 1: the whole thing about oh anyone can be president, that

1414
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 1: is the appealing thing to people who are his supporters.

1415
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 1: It's like, well, yeah, it's sure he's an idiot, or

1416
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: he has he doesn't know about this, or he doesn't

1417
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:42,440
Speaker 1: listen to his advisors like they're like, he acts exactly

1418
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:46,759
Speaker 1: how I would if I was president. Oh oh he didn't.

1419
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 1: He doesn't read any of the reports. I wouldn't either.

1420
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 1: I'd also make people write me a memo and that

1421
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 1: I would only read the first sentence of that memo

1422
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 1: or yeah, of course I would tweet whenever and like

1423
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,719
Speaker 1: call into Fox News with just like any random thought

1424
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,600
Speaker 1: because like, of course I'll do anything I want, and

1425
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 1: I think that is what they love. They're like, oh, yeah,

1426
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 1: that's literally what the funk I would do if I

1427
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 1: was president, which is whatever the funk I want. Yep,

1428
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:19,840
Speaker 1: cool stuff. So yeah, uh and in kind of the

1429
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 1: same vein, like kind of on this same vein, like

1430
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 1: we talked about, like Trump lowering himself making the presidency

1431
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:30,559
Speaker 1: seemed more accessible to the kind of people who vote

1432
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 1: for him. Another thing that both he and the Nazi

1433
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 1: Party really did have in common in terms of like

1434
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 1: things that they ran on and things that made them

1435
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 1: appealing to you know, the same kind of person is

1436
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 1: attacking and dewriting experts, right, and the idea of expertise

1437
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 1: that's been a huge part of the Trump administration, a

1438
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,720
Speaker 1: huge part of Trump's what he's campaigned on. It's one

1439
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: of the things that's biting him in the ass now

1440
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 1: as he gets COVID nineteen is his his kind of

1441
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 1: contempt for expertise, but it's shared by a lot of

1442
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,320
Speaker 1: these people who don't like like the idea that a

1443
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:06,320
Speaker 1: doctor could tell them what to do, could tell them

1444
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 1: to wear a face mask or something, just because he

1445
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 1: went to some fancy school for a while. Um, And

1446
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 1: that that was a thing that you very much saw

1447
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 1: in Weimar Germany among the little Nazis. Nazis and rode

1448
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 1: into power by harnessing a strong anti intellectual current among

1449
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:23,680
Speaker 1: very low class Germans. Meyer writes that probably six or

1450
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:25,880
Speaker 1: seven out of ten of his Nazi friends saw quote

1451
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 1: unquote intellectuals as fundamentally unreliable and untrustworthy people, and academics

1452
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 1: were the least trustworthy. This sat very well with a

1453
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 1: little Nazis, who resented those with higher education. And this

1454
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:41,160
Speaker 1: next paragraph from Meyer's book resonates more strongly with America

1455
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 1: in than almost any other passage in the book. Quote Nazism,

1456
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:48,679
Speaker 1: as it proceeded from practice to theory, had to deny

1457
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 1: expertness in thinking, and then the second process was never completed.

1458
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 1: In order to fill the vacuum, had to establish expert

1459
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 1: thinking of its own, that is, to find men of

1460
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 1: inferior or irresponsible caliber whose views conformed dishonestly or worse yet, honestly,

1461
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:07,719
Speaker 1: to the party line. The non political pastors satisfied Nazi

1462
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:11,920
Speaker 1: requirements by being non political. But the non political schoolmaster was,

1463
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:14,759
Speaker 1: by the very virtue of being non political, a dangerous

1464
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 1: man from the start. He himself would not rebel, nor

1465
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 1: would he, if he could help it, teach rebellion. But

1466
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:22,519
Speaker 1: he could not help being dangerous, not if he went

1467
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:24,720
Speaker 1: on teaching what was true. In order to be a

1468
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: theory and not just a practiced national socialism required the

1469
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 1: destruction of academic independence. And of course we could draw

1470
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 1: some lines to that ship right now, right like the

1471
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:38,640
Speaker 1: Trump just gave an executive order about patriotic education and

1472
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:43,720
Speaker 1: banning certain types of historical education from schools, Like we're

1473
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of this, yeah, And also the fact

1474
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:48,560
Speaker 1: that like no ship, Jews got the ship out of

1475
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 1: the ship end of the stick in Germany when they

1476
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 1: were a lot of the intellectuals and a lot of

1477
01:19:53,920 --> 01:20:00,920
Speaker 1: the educated because um of their place in German society

1478
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:05,520
Speaker 1: and the importance of education and learning in the Jewish community.

1479
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 1: And it was a way I in a in a

1480
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,760
Speaker 1: kind of bitter irony. Part of like why that was

1481
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 1: such a preferred path for Jewish people in Germany is

1482
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 1: because they saw it as a way of same thing

1483
01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: with military service a way of gaining acceptance in a

1484
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 1: culture that was kind of hostile to them. Is like, well,

1485
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:23,880
Speaker 1: but if I've become a professor, there's respect with that,

1486
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 1: and then people will respect me as a Jewish Man,

1487
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:29,559
Speaker 1: and people will maybe respect my people more. And it's

1488
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 1: I mean, you can. There's there's a reason why black

1489
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 1: people in Hispanic people would also like LGBT people, serve

1490
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 1: in the military at a much higher rate than um

1491
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 1: than the general population. It's because there's respect in that

1492
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 1: from from pretty much all corners of society. And it's

1493
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 1: just this thing, it's a thing a lot of people

1494
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:52,960
Speaker 1: do kind of instinctively when you're part of a disadvantaged

1495
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 1: and targeted group, is you seek the protection that respect

1496
01:20:56,400 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 1: gives you. Yep. Good stuff. So in my episode of

1497
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 1: the non Nazi Bastards behind Hitler, I referenced Dorothy Thompson,

1498
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 1: who's a really interesting person to study. She was a

1499
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 1: journalist who reported from Germany and its last three days

1500
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 1: before the war. Um she was forced out of the country.

1501
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:16,599
Speaker 1: She's also married to the guy who wrote It Can't

1502
01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 1: Happen Here, UM, that famous book about like what an

1503
01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:23,600
Speaker 1: American Fascist would look like? UM. Yeah. She wrote a

1504
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 1: really good article after getting kicked out of Germany and

1505
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:29,880
Speaker 1: returned to the US called who goes Nazi question Mark,

1506
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:31,840
Speaker 1: And the whole thing is set. It's her at a

1507
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:34,519
Speaker 1: dinner party, looking at all of the attendees and thinking

1508
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:37,320
Speaker 1: in her head which one of them will support the

1509
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: American equivalent of the Nazi Party if it comes here,

1510
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:42,599
Speaker 1: and like trying to decide, like which aspects of their

1511
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 1: personality would make them vulnerable to doing that. It's a

1512
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 1: very interesting article, and there's one quote from it in

1513
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:52,519
Speaker 1: particular that I want to read. And this is her

1514
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 1: kind of moulling on what makes people Nazis. Sometimes I

1515
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 1: think there are direct biological factors at work, a type

1516
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 1: of education and feeding and physical training which has produced

1517
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 1: a new kind of human being with an imbalance in

1518
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:07,720
Speaker 1: his nature. He has been fed vitamins and filled with

1519
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 1: energies that are beyond the capacity of his intellect to discipline.

1520
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 1: He has been treated to forms of education which have

1521
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 1: released him from inhibitions. His body is vigorous, his mind

1522
01:22:17,439 --> 01:22:22,840
Speaker 1: is childish. His soul has been almost completely neglected. I

1523
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 1: just think about a lot of proud boys when I

1524
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:35,040
Speaker 1: get so Now, wait a minute, but physically vigorous. Yeah,

1525
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:36,760
Speaker 1: a lot of them are like a lot of real

1526
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:42,479
Speaker 1: buff dudes that ship like big young people. Yeah, like

1527
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 1: very like large, the kind of person we call it

1528
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:55,320
Speaker 1: shud colloquial, right, yeah, yeah, she's talking about shuds. She's

1529
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 1: just she's defining chuds here, and she's not the only one. Mussolini,

1530
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 1: his favorite philosopher, a guy named Giovanni Gentile, noted of fascists,

1531
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 1: we think with our blood. And he was not making

1532
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:09,879
Speaker 1: I don't think a racial statement there. He was instead acknowledging,

1533
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:11,920
Speaker 1: because this was an Italian fascist and they were kind

1534
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 1: of less on the racial thing. He was acknowledging that

1535
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 1: violence of action, relentless, aggressive physicality was a key attribute

1536
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: for the kind of men who became fascists. Thinking and

1537
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:27,519
Speaker 1: consideration were effeminate and shameful. Or is the proud boys

1538
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:36,639
Speaker 1: say today? Funk around and find out. Oh wow, yeah, yep,

1539
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:39,840
Speaker 1: that's part one. We're gonna talk about the Holocaust a

1540
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:41,880
Speaker 1: lot in part two, so I hope you're looking forward

1541
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:45,880
Speaker 1: to that. Thanks as always for inviting me for that.

1542
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:48,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's gonna be a lot of dead babies

1543
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:52,160
Speaker 1: next episode. Thank you. Robert can't think of can't talk

1544
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:57,120
Speaker 1: about dead babies without youself. We can, but I feel guilty. Yeah,

1545
01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 1: I feel ashamed. Um, yeah, I guess Thanks you guys

1546
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:11,800
Speaker 1: for having my back. Yeah, that's that's, that's it, right. Yeah.

1547
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 1: Do you have any writer or die, Sophia, writer or die? Uh?

1548
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 1: Do you have any plug plug plug plug plug doubles?

1549
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:25,599
Speaker 1: I sure do. I have an album out called Father's Day.

1550
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:29,120
Speaker 1: It's fucking hilarious, Thank you so much, on any of

1551
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 1: the platforms. Um. You can also just buy it on

1552
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 1: my website, Sophia Alexandra dot com. So that's it. Well,

1553
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:43,439
Speaker 1: you can find Sophia and you should do that. Don't

1554
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:47,280
Speaker 1: find me. I am I am hiding. Now this has

1555
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:50,560
Speaker 1: been the episode