WEBVTT - Greg Daniels - Pt. 1 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:21.800 Hello everybody. Hi uh oh, I am so excited today. 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.520 That jazzy little tune is getting me very excited. Welcome 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:31.080 one and all to the first, the absolute first premier, 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.160 as we call it, in the business episode of The 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:40.560 Office Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Now 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:43.879 where did this podcast come from? I don't know if 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.680 you're aware that I had another podcast, an oral History 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:49.919 of the Office. Now, if you haven't listened to that, 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:54.639 you should, because I mean, it's absolutely genius, if if 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.280 I say so myself. But what happened was we did 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.120 that podcast and we had so much fun making it 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.440 and getting back together with my old castmates and crew 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:12.200 and writers and directors. The problem was, we got so 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.080 much good material we could not fit all of the 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.280 great stuff in. That's what she said. So we decided 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:24.119 to make another podcast, this podcast, the one right here 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.160 that you're listening to right now, And this time I 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:32.560 am releasing all of my raw, unfiltered, full length interviews 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.520 for you to go even deeper. So let's dive in, 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:47.360 shall we. Hi. I'm Greg Daniels. I was the showrunner 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:55.760 of the Office. So how do we begin? Well, we 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:00.800 begin at the beginning that made no sense. Uh. The 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.520 thing is, there is only one way to begin a 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:10.000 podcast about the Office, and that is with Greg Daniels. Now, 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.360 as some of you Office fans undoubtedly no, Greg was 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:19.360 the creator and showrunner of the American version of the Office. 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.280 But what you may not know is that before that, 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.400 Greg was the showrunner and co creator of King of 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.200 the Hill. And before that he was a writer on 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:34.320 The Simpsons and Saturday Night Live. And see what is 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.720 so cool is that, as you'll hear momentarily, all of 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:44.040 that experience totally shaped Greg's vision for The Office, which 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:48.440 at the time was honestly revolutionary. There was nothing like 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:54.480 The Office on American television. I truly cannot overstate how 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.360 significant Greg's role was on the show. He assembled the 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:04.000 entire team, and he was responsible for everything from casting 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.760 to set design, production design, the shooting style. Again, all 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:10.160 of that you're gonna hear about in a minute. But 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.839 the point is he is literally the reason we're all 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:18.040 here today. Well maybe not you guys, but me. He's 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:22.720 definitely the reason that I'm here. So I'm obviously very 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.680 excited to kick things off. I'm gonna shut up now, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.000 ladies and gentlemen, for our very first interview. I am 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:39.240 proud to present Mr Greg Daniels Bubble and Squeak. I 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:45.440 love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker Cookie 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:55.160 at every month lift over from the night before. Oh hi, buddy, Hire, 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.320 so good to see you, to see you too. I 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.480 love that carved I have Atner's chapel. I have an 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.240 engraved plaque. That's fantastic. We face each other. How do you? 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.240 I think we face each other. I think we're here. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:13.560 It's kind of neat. It's a great room, right, Yeah, 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.719 how are you are they recording? Yeah, we're just having 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:23.640 a chat. We're having a chat. I've stolen a few tricks, exactly. 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:29.640 We just merge in. Actually, that's exactly right. I learned 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.400 from the best. Um, well, thank you for fighting me. 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.960 Congratulations on your podcast. Thank you so much. It's been 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:42.920 so fun to one just see people and to to 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.800 like reminisce and talk. I mean, everyone has been so 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:53.960 generous and thoughtful and articulate, and well that's going to change. Yeah, 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.680 I kind of figured. So I'm not talking to you 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.000 about I'm just going to talk to you about King 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:06.600 of the Hill because it's fun. Um so before the office, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:13.000 what were you what were you doing immediately prior to well, Um, So, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.479 I had just kind of come off a very intense 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.560 maybe eight years at King of the Hill, and this 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.160 was the first show that I was the showrunner. And uh, 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:29.120 that job is maybe not that widely known outside of Hollywood. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:34.240 It's like the director of the movie. It's very full time, intense, 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.520 start to finish on something job. So I had come 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:44.200 off The Simpsons, and the Simpsons was really good training 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:45.600 in many ways, but there was a lot of things 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.359 I wanted to do differently because you know, when I 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.680 got to The Simpsons, it was season the end of 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:57.040 season four and the show was getting a little wilder 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.960 kind of And for Key of the Hill, I wanted 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:05.280 to keep it contained and realistic the whole time. And 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.120 I was very much of the opinion and you have 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.680 to really start slow on the show and just the 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.760 value of slowness, but come up with stories like from 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.800 a simple place, not a grand idea or set up. 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.400 Is that what you mean? Well, like, for instance, the 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.240 the pilot of King of the Hill, you know, the 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.719 first couple of minutes, these guys are standing around a 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:31.479 truck just going yep, you know really and um, you know, 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.120 so I I had come off that and you know, 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:39.599 I was a huge fan of Seinfeld and I wanted 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.080 to get on that show. I sold them one script. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.320 I was a freelancer, but I generated a lot of 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.359 stories and would pitch them and I really thought about 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.320 that show a lot. And then I went on The 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:56.040 Simpsons instead and learned a whole bunch there. But I, um, 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.200 it was kind of a good student of knowing that 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.640 I wanted to be a runner. So I would take 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.800 notes and you know, write them down, and I have 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.520 all these scraps of things and I would develop a 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:10.880 different theories. And one of the theories that I had 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:17.120 I call stuff the Sausage, And that theory is a 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:22.360 great show like Seinfeld is wasteful of wonderful ideas, you 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.120 know what I mean, Like they'll have a great idea 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.160 and it might just turn into a couple of lines 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.320 or a scene, like they don't milk it and make 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.880 a whole episode out of right. So we tried to 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.200 do that on the Office too, But there was a 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.280 lot of that on King of the Hill, where you'd 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:40.040 have subplots and you know, really tried to put a 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:45.760 lot of story into an episode. What were your favorite shows? Like, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.800 what were you watching at that time? Seinfeld? I loved. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.320 But part of it was when Matt came out. You know, 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.920 it was very different and it was really on by 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.040 the skin of its teeth, and if you picked up 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.400 on it early, you had definitely this feeling of, oh 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.560 my god, here's something super funny and if I don't 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.640 watch it, it's gonna be extinguished. And actually I had 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:15.240 a I had a meeting at ABC and they were talking. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:16.800 They said, what do you like to watch? And I said, oh, 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:21.960 I love Seinfeld And they said something like the that 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.440 they had Home Improvement and that they identified that Simon 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.040 felt was going to be a threat, and they wanted 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.720 to move Home Improvement against it and squash it in 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.240 its cradle, but they couldn't because they had this long 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:38.080 standing deal to run Sibs opposite Seinfeld, and they were 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.120 watching it kind of catch hold, and they were they 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:41.360 were like, as soon as they could, they were going 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.160 to squash it with Home Improvement, and I was like, 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:47.000 don't you dare do that? You know, um, well, that's 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.440 kind of what happened to us too. By the end, right, 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.040 they moved Gray's anatomy against US and c S. I 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.480 was on CBS like they were pulling all their big 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.839 shows against US. Yeah. Well, I kept making I made 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.280 a lot of Seinfeld comparisons in the beginning, because um, 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.800 you know, I was like, oh, look how small that started. 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:05.840 It's something new, it's something unique, it's funny, you know, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.839 let it grow and everything. But it turns out every 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.960 single producer made Seinfeld comparisons if you had a show 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.240 that was struggling, you know, no matter how good it 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:17.719 was or how close it was the Seinfeld, they had 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:22.920 heard that argument before. Um, and when did you become aware? 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.320 You were aware of the British version Ricky Gervais and 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.720 uh no, here's what happened. Um okay, So so I 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.400 do King of the Hell. Yeah. I go into an 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:39.400 overall deal at twenty and then when that deal expired, 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.480 I started to kind of look for the next thing. 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:47.400 And my agent, our Emmanuel, sent me a VHS cassette 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.480 and said the office on it and the show was 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:54.720 completely unknown, and I didn't watch it, and he called 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.000 me like after the holidays and he said, um, hey, 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.520 I'm gonna, you know, send this to next guy on 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.720 my list. If you don't watch it. So I said, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.200 all right, all right, hold on, I'll try and watch 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.040 it tonight. So I popped a set in like at 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.520 nine PM or something, and I stayed up till one 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:12.880 watching the show. And I absolutely loved it. I thought 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.679 it was amazing and I couldn't even figure out how 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.600 it was done, you know it was. It didn't feel 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:23.960 like scripted. It was so alive and cool. And you 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.120 know how I said, I was like a student a 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.960 bit of being a showrunner. So a lot of times 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.680 I wanted to meet the people who I thought were 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.960 doing the best work, whether or not I figured I 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.800 would ever work with them. So it was really important 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.280 for me to sell a freelance episode of Seinfeld so 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.280 that I could work with Larry David and see what 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.960 was up. And I identified that Ricky and Stephen had 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.160 created something amazing, and I really wanted to figure it 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.880 out right, but I didn't. I didn't really think that 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.160 it was plausible that it would come to American TV, 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:58.000 or that I would get the job or whatever. But 0:10:58.040 --> 0:10:59.760 I wanted to meet them and asked them about it. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.880 So I met him at Ben's office, a little bungalow 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:08.480 on the Universal Law yeah, and it turned out that 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.960 number one, they loved the Simpsons. Number two Rickey's favorite 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.880 Simpsons episode was one that I had written, called Homer Badman. 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:21.200 So we started vibing nicely and um, you know, and 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.000 I talked to them about what I saw in the show, 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:31.160 and you know how I would adapted, and a lot 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.920 of it came from King of the Hill being kind 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:40.040 of realistic and slow and poignant. Um. But anyway, we 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.120 got along really well and um, so they trusted me 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:48.640 to take over and do the adaptation. And Ben had 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.959 identified a few people who he thought would be really receptive, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.880 and Kevin Riley was the front runner and he was 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:02.040 running f X, and it seemed plausible that if anybody 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.120 could take the office, it would be f X or 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.000 maybe HBO. Those were like the two we were thinking about. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.280 But now Ben told me that HBO wasn't interested because 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.600 they didn't want to do a remake. Correct, Yes, they 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.320 were out of the running. So FX looked pretty good. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.599 But what happened was, um, Kevin Riley left f X 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:22.920 and took over NBC, and he still wanted to do 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.480 the show. And I was very skeptical because everything on 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.679 NBC had was multi camera Will and Grace was their 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.320 number one show, and um, it did not feel at 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:39.760 all like The Office. So okay, So I started to 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.240 convince myself maybe the point of bringing the Office, I 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.280 actually thought this was, was move the ship of comedy 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.000 in a direction towards something I liked more. And even 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:53.960 if I just nudged it in that direction, maybe it 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:59.520 would be valuable, like flame out to do you know NBC, 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.920 even if it failed miserably, you were doing your part. Yeah, 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.800 I was gonna nudge Network Comedy or the main ship 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.800 of comedy. I wanted to nudge it in a different direction. Um. 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.480 Then a few things happened that were very anxiety producing 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.800 for me. At some point, Uh, the Office started to 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:21.080 air on BBC America in the United States and it 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.880 was very small ratings. Um. But that also made me 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.160 very anxious because I didn't think that it would ever 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.839 air in the United States. Do you know what I mean? Like, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.120 I have the role to the Office that Norman Lear 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.520 had All in the Family because All the Family was 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:38.720 in English show. But no one's ever seen the English 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.200 show that all the Families based, right, so Norman Lear 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.440 has no points of comparison. I didn't have to worry 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.400 about anything. It was just like, oh, what a great, 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:51.160 great new show you got. Um so that shared air 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.120 and all the cool comedy people were really into it, 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:56.200 you know. And this was when we had we had 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.520 already shot pilot. So I'm jumping ahead a little bit. 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.480 This was right before, right before we uh, right before 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:04.880 we were going to airs, when I started to come 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.719 out because they wanted to like connect it, I think 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.719 to the NBC show or something. Okay, yeah, I mean 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.840 I I had gotten an early DVD of it too. 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.640 And it's interesting. I was one of the first people 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.000 to get a DVR because I felt like, well, if 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.200 I'm meeting on these shows, I need to see what's 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.400 out there, whether I like it or not. I should, 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.800 you know, see an episode of c S I and 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.480 see an episode of Will and Grace. So I just 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.160 spent all my time watching and to try I got 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.280 a ti VO. Yeah, and so I had watched I 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.200 had watched it at that point. I have a funny 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.080 Tevo stories sidebar. But yeah, so I got a TVO 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.240 two and they had an early version of the Netflix algorithm. 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.040 They were like, oh, you look, you watch this and 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.600 this and this at the time, I was watching Ken 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.080 of the Hill episodes just to make sure it aired properly. Um, 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.240 I love the Sopranos. So I was watching that and 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:03.880 then my kids we're watching Dragon Tales on PBS, and 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.760 so they tried to triangulate off those three and uh 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.320 and they said, you know what you'd like McHale's Navy. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.480 That was the cross second of three shows. I think 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:37.120 it's kind of funny. So you sell the show to NBC. Yeah, 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.920 you're running it, and now it's time to come up 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.960 with a pilot. Now, how how did you come up 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.040 with a decision to keep it so close to the 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.920 British version? Yeah, well that was interesting. I had went 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.160 back and forth. I had generated a bunch of stories 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.200 if I was going to do a completely original story. 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.520 And when I was growing up, my dad was a 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.880 businessman who had a lot of performative interests like stand 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.400 He used to do a manager's meeting every year at 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.520 his company where he got Karnak hat you know, the 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.360 turban and his name is Aaron. He would do Aaronak 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.240 And my first joke writing was writing jokes for his 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.720 routine for Aaronach. And as I became a comedy writer. 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.120 Some very good people like Colan O'Brien wrote for him, 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.600 and you know, Mike Reis a lot of good comedy 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.840 writers wrote for Aaronach and I used that, I think 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:29.240 in the Dundees because I, uh, Michael has an aaronak 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.400 or karnak wig and he does the exact same joke. 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:37.640 That was the first joke that I wrote for my dad. Um. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.280 But to get back to the question of what to do, 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.520 so uh so I used to do an award show 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.880 at King of the Hill called the swamp Eas, named 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.120 after Swampy Marsh, who was one of our designers who 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.160 went on to create Phineas and ferb and he had 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.800 a big personality, and so we called it the Swampys. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.800 And I got those little plastics salesman trophies that are 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:02.560 not too hard to get, and I used to give 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.240 those out at King of the Hill. So anyway, I thought, well, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.800 the Dundees Dundee Awards would be a good you know, 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.760 pilot episode, yeah, because you'd sort of by giving awards 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.359 to everybody, you could introduce all these different characters or whatever. 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.760 But um, then I started to get worried and I 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:24.800 didn't want to Um, do an original script that the 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.600 NBC executives were going to start giving notes on which 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.680 they would have I believe with an original script. And 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.399 I was just really I felt like the pilot was 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.439 like the challenge was, can we do something that feels 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.399 like The Office and not like Will and Grace and 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.480 not blow it right? I thought it was more of 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.240 a producing challenge and the hiring challenge to anything else. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.240 And so ultimately I got Kevin to say, I want 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:52.639 to make The Office, and I said, all right, I'm 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.320 gonna hold you to that. The first the pilot we're 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:57.760 gonna make is going to be very close to the 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:02.840 English show anyway, So I made some changes to the 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.959 English pilot. I added a bunch of stuff and advanced 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.159 the romance a little bit so you'd know at the 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.080 end of the pilot what was going on. And ultimately, 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.639 in the edit room, which lasted forever, we did twenty 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.560 three cuts. I ended up losing a bunch of stuff 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.399 that I had added, but I did you know, there 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:22.879 were some good things I added, Like I added that 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.280 World's Greatest Boss mug that he bought from Spencer Gifts, 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.439 and a bunch of things like that. Um Anyway, but 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.119 for you, it was more about creating the world and 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:36.320 finding the team and finding the and the cast, the rhythm, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.480 the dynamic and selling that as opposed to trying to 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.600 you know, write a Dundee's Award and change how the 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.440 show was launched. Yeah, I thought it was a huge 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.320 producing challenge, and you know, and I had all those 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.760 theories and like the stuff to sausage and stuff, and 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.399 some of the theories that I had was that the 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.439 show had to be handmade, like it couldn't be a 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:03.800 factory product. And what I didn't like about network television 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.400 was how much of a factory it was. And how 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.080 you know, there was a writing staff and the writers 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.000 wrote jokes, and the jokes got passed down to the actors, 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.840 and the writers and actress would always resent each other, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.000 and the writers would try and write actor proof jokes 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.280 that you know, are can contain the setup in the 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.040 punchline in the same line, because they didn't ever trust 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.560 that the actors could get laughs on behavior. So the 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:35.600 first thing I really wanted to do was create comedy 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.800 television in a different pattern so that you could get 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:45.000 more laughs off performance and not jokes. Right, I've heard 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.160 um and people have talked about it, and you've talked 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:52.400 about it, Um, that you were trying to create an 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.399 environment that was more like S and L where the 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.600 writers and the actors there wasn't so much disconnect and 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.480 that and that writers were performing with the actors, and 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.080 actors could pitch ideas to the writers. Um what I 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.560 what I haven't heard before that you just said, which 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:11.479 I find so interesting that you wanted laughs to come 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:17.040 from behavior and from actors performances, and and and so 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.119 you needed a writing staff that understood and had trust 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.080 in the actors, which is in a way kind of 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.639 the reverse of how I thought about it. Yeah, well, 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:26.199 you know what they always said it was the biggest 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:31.440 laugh of all time was Jack Benny where he's getting 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.160 mugged and the guy says your money or your life 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:39.000 and he just like has to think about it, you know, 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.119 And like, to me, that's great because that's not a joke, right, 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:46.040 it's just like you're bringing to bear the everything you 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:50.400 know about the character. I thought those were such cooler 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:56.119 things than jokes. And Um. Anyway, so that was like 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.760 the big challenge. And then also it was that format, right, 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:03.800 it is mockumentary, and it was very quiet, and it 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.359 had its rhythm and the comedy of awkwardness where like, 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.560 you know, someone's supposed to behave a certain way and 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.080 they aren't, you know what I mean, and then it 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.960 sinks in and and um, that was certainly really hard 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.160 to pull off at that time. Yes, I had a 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:20.960 director that I worked with for a long time in 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.760 theater before. He always talked to me about off the beat. 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.760 That comedy exists off the beat. So if you have 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:32.480 an expectation of when you should respond, you you you 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.240 wait a half beat, you do something that jars people, 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.240 which surprises them. And I felt like, that's what what 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.439 you did so well on our show. Well, surprise is 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:47.880 really good for comedy, right, And to me, um, anything 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.639 you can do to increase surprise is good. And the 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.480 problem to me with your multi camera shows in general 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.280 was that the rhythms were so ingrained. You know, it's 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:04.840 always like up, you know, and you could kind of 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.000 just and it felt like like kabuki, you know, or 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.679 some kind of really ritualized thing. So there's a lot 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.320 of really cool things about the Office in terms of 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.920 increasing surprise. One of them to me is you're going 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.760 for poignancy half the time, you're going for something emotional, 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.600 so you're not aware as an audience, remember what the 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:30.359 goal of the moment is, so you think, oh, you know, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:32.639 oh this is sad, this is a you know, and 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:34.720 then it's funny and then you you're surprised or if 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:39.520 vice verse him. So um. So the first the pilot, 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.600 we had Peter Smokeler as the DP, and a lot 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.840 of the hiring of the pilot for me was trying 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.120 to get people who I super respected from different things 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.720 that were kind of off, like not the standard sitcom. 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:58.359 So um. Alison Jones loved freaks and geeks that thought 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:01.880 her casting was amazing, so I really wanted to get her. 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.920 And then I had tried to work on Larry Sanders. 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:06.440 I did a couple of days of punch up there. 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:10.040 I'd identified that as something similar to to Seinfeld, like 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:14.280 some show that was just doing amazing stuff. And that's 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:19.600 how we got to Ken koppas Yes, And the whole 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.960 thing with Ken was wanting everybody to believe that they 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:26.119 were working at a paper company and absorbing that and 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.040 kind of taking the Hollywood out of it. Well, there 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.720 were so many things that you guys did. First of all, 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:37.119 getting a sound stage as a location and choosing to 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:41.480 put the offices in the production offices upstairs, right because 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:46.119 that was a real space and Ken and his making 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:48.960 us be all ready to go at seven am and 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:52.520 doing thirty minutes of just work. Yeah no, that was 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:57.159 really uh part of that notion of obstacles that like 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.399 I um, we discussed that a lot as well, which 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:05.760 is uh on the Hollywood set. And again this is 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:09.120 like trying not to be factory, not to be Hollywood. Right, 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.280 So on Hollywood set they make the walls wild a bole, 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:15.359 which means any room you're in you can pull the 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.280 wall off so that the camera can get back and 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:21.840 get a great shot. And our aesthetic on the office 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:26.000 was nothing should be wild able, you you should. The 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:31.840 obstacle of a column in the way is subconsciously interpreted 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:35.320 by the audience as another piece of evidence that this 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:38.880 is actually happening, that's real, which makes it much more intense, 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:42.040 right because subconsciously you're like, oh my god, they couldn't, 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:46.160 they can't, they can't quite see what's happening, right, So yeah, 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:49.200