WEBVTT - Why Experiencing Awe With Others Feels So Magical 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:30.556 --> 0:00:34.916 There's this palpable excitement that occurs where you're all there 0:00:35.076 --> 0:00:38.476 in this moment together and something magical is happening and 0:00:38.516 --> 0:00:41.916 you're a part of it. You're fully engrossed. All of 0:00:41.956 --> 0:00:45.076 your senses are being pulled into this moment, and that 0:00:45.156 --> 0:00:46.396 moment is special. 0:00:47.116 --> 0:00:50.236 Doctor Shira Gabriel is describing a form of awe called 0:00:50.276 --> 0:00:54.316 collective effervescence. It's the feeling we get when we experience 0:00:54.396 --> 0:00:58.196 something transcendent with other people, and it can have benefits 0:00:58.196 --> 0:00:59.116 for our mental health. 0:00:59.516 --> 0:01:03.676 We find consistently that collective effervescence is related to being 0:01:03.756 --> 0:01:07.316 less lonely, feeling as if your life has more meaning, 0:01:07.916 --> 0:01:11.556 and feeling more confident in who you are. So across 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:15.836 a wide variety of well being measures and social connection measures, 0:01:16.116 --> 0:01:19.876 we find that collective effervescence has a unique impact on people. 0:01:21.996 --> 0:01:25.916 On today's episode, we explore the powerful science behind collective 0:01:25.916 --> 0:01:29.396 effervescence and how it's easier to find than you might think. 0:01:33.356 --> 0:01:35.836 I'm Maya Schunker and this is a slight change of 0:01:35.876 --> 0:01:38.516 plans the show about who we are and who we 0:01:38.596 --> 0:01:50.356 become in the face of the big change. Doctor Shira 0:01:50.476 --> 0:01:54.076 Gabriel is a professor of social psychology, and she studies 0:01:54.116 --> 0:01:57.636 the science of belonging. In recent years, she's turned her 0:01:57.676 --> 0:01:59.716 attention to collective effervescence. 0:02:00.396 --> 0:02:03.196 What interests me is the human need for social connection, 0:02:03.756 --> 0:02:07.196 and all around me, I see these examples of people 0:02:07.236 --> 0:02:11.076 finding this sense of connection that we're studying our science, 0:02:11.116 --> 0:02:13.596 but in the real world and things like these fish 0:02:13.636 --> 0:02:16.796 concerts that I went to in my youth, and things 0:02:16.876 --> 0:02:20.076 like political rallies, and I would see video of people 0:02:20.116 --> 0:02:23.996 praying in large groups and think, Wow, this is so amazing, 0:02:24.076 --> 0:02:27.236 Like something is happening there that is important to them 0:02:27.676 --> 0:02:30.956 above and beyond the activity that they're engaging in. And 0:02:31.036 --> 0:02:34.476 I really thought, gosh, we as psychologists should be studying this, 0:02:35.036 --> 0:02:38.556 like psychologically, what is the function of this, Like how 0:02:38.636 --> 0:02:42.196 is this feeling our basic need as human beings to 0:02:42.316 --> 0:02:43.956 feel connected to other people? 0:02:44.516 --> 0:02:47.636 Yeah, can you walk me through how we first came 0:02:47.676 --> 0:02:51.316 to understand and name this concept of collective effervescence. 0:02:52.116 --> 0:02:54.596 So this was Durkheim, who was one of the founders 0:02:54.716 --> 0:02:59.556 of sociology, and Durkheim did some work where he examined 0:02:59.716 --> 0:03:01.996 people from other parts of the world, from cultures he 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:06.636 wasn't familiar with, engaged in religious rituals, and he made 0:03:06.676 --> 0:03:09.116 the argument that when you look at these religious risks, 0:03:09.636 --> 0:03:12.836 something is happening, something is boiling up that comes from 0:03:12.836 --> 0:03:16.756 people doing this together. And he called this collective effervescence. 0:03:16.796 --> 0:03:18.916 So this idea that happens in a collective there are 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:21.836 a lot of people, but there's something effervescent, there's something 0:03:21.916 --> 0:03:26.756 extra there, something bubbling up in these group scenarios. 0:03:26.796 --> 0:03:30.876 I want to help listeners really appreciate the difference between 0:03:31.436 --> 0:03:35.516 collective effervescence and say other types of feelings of connection 0:03:35.676 --> 0:03:39.596 and belonging. So what is the criteria for something to 0:03:39.636 --> 0:03:41.916 be deemed collective effervescence. 0:03:42.596 --> 0:03:46.476 So collective effervescence occurs when we're with other people who 0:03:46.516 --> 0:03:51.276 aren't necessarily relationship partners, and we have a feeling of 0:03:51.356 --> 0:03:54.756 connection to them, and we have a feeling that something 0:03:55.396 --> 0:03:58.636 sacred or transcendent or special is going on. So it's 0:03:58.676 --> 0:04:02.076 sort of the intertwining of those two different things, a 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:04.636 feeling of connection to others and a feeling that something 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:09.236 special is happening. That occurs when we're with other folks 0:04:09.276 --> 0:04:12.756 who aren't necessarily our friends. You can have this experience 0:04:12.836 --> 0:04:16.156 if you're with people you know, but that's not necessary 0:04:16.236 --> 0:04:17.036 for it to happen. 0:04:18.316 --> 0:04:22.116 A foundational part of your research examines how people respond 0:04:22.156 --> 0:04:26.956 to this particular experience called kululum, in which the thousand 0:04:26.996 --> 0:04:30.756 person audience is taught a choral arrangement of a song 0:04:30.876 --> 0:04:32.916 on the spot and then they sing it together. 0:04:33.276 --> 0:04:36.876 Yeah. So Kululam has had events all over the world 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:39.596 and all over Israel. And in one event, in particular, 0:04:39.636 --> 0:04:42.636 at the Tower of David, they used the song One 0:04:42.716 --> 0:04:45.556 Love by Bob Marley, and they took this English song 0:04:45.716 --> 0:04:48.236 and they rewrote parts of it in Hebrew and parts 0:04:48.276 --> 0:04:51.636 of it in Arabic, and they brought people from Israel. 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:54.996 This was during a visit by an important Muslim cleric, 0:04:55.036 --> 0:04:57.916 and so they brought Muslims together and Jews together, and 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:02.116 Christians and people who are without traditional religious faith. And 0:05:02.196 --> 0:05:05.676 they have people who speak English and Arabic and Hebrew 0:05:05.956 --> 0:05:09.476 and learn the song in all three languages. So really 0:05:09.596 --> 0:05:13.476 bringing people together and merging these worlds in this magical 0:05:13.796 --> 0:05:42.836 and very smart way. 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:46.676 What do you think Shira makes kululum a particularly unique 0:05:46.716 --> 0:05:49.196 and special form of collective effervescence. 0:05:49.956 --> 0:05:54.156 Yeah, I mean what they have done without knowing it 0:05:54.236 --> 0:05:57.996 is basically taken every single thing that would give a 0:05:58.036 --> 0:06:02.236 person a sense of collective effervescence and supercharged it. So 0:06:02.276 --> 0:06:05.116 they're bringing together people who don't know one another, they're 0:06:05.116 --> 0:06:10.916 giving them a joint focus, teaching them a song. They 0:06:11.076 --> 0:06:14.516 use songs that people have heard before and are familiar with. 0:06:15.196 --> 0:06:19.516 So basically every single thing that we would say like, oh, 0:06:19.596 --> 0:06:23.476 that could increase the likelihood of collective effervescence, they've done 0:06:23.556 --> 0:06:24.316 all those things. 0:06:24.676 --> 0:06:26.956 Yeah, and you know, it strikes me that this is 0:06:26.996 --> 0:06:30.036 a very active experience for all group participants, right. 0:06:30.156 --> 0:06:30.556 Yeah. 0:06:30.596 --> 0:06:33.196 Obviously at concerts we can sing along cur favorite bands, 0:06:33.196 --> 0:06:36.596 but in this case, every member is contributing to the music. 0:06:36.676 --> 0:06:40.716 So what role does that active versus passive element play 0:06:40.956 --> 0:06:42.436 in the feeling of effervescence. 0:06:43.076 --> 0:06:46.796 You can feel collective effervescence without being actively involved with 0:06:46.996 --> 0:06:50.396 just sort of passively watching something. But again, you're going 0:06:50.476 --> 0:06:53.636 to really increase the likelihood that you do when you're 0:06:53.796 --> 0:06:57.676 actively involved in something like in this case, you're actively 0:06:57.676 --> 0:06:59.516 involved in the whole thing. I mean, you learn the 0:06:59.516 --> 0:07:01.756 whole thing, you sing the whole thing, you're in every 0:07:01.796 --> 0:07:04.596 moment with the people around you. But even in these 0:07:04.636 --> 0:07:07.396 events where you would think people are just watching people 0:07:07.436 --> 0:07:10.036 are doing way more than that. So you know, when 0:07:10.036 --> 0:07:12.196 you go to a football game, you're not jumping in 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:14.876 there and like catching the ball or running down the field. 0:07:15.356 --> 0:07:17.796 They'll arrest you for that. But they do get the 0:07:17.836 --> 0:07:21.516 crowd into it, right, so everybody screams when your team 0:07:21.916 --> 0:07:25.036 is on defense, so that the quarterback can't be heard. 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:28.596 And every team has like chance that the fans do 0:07:28.796 --> 0:07:32.636 and songs that they sing, and some stadiums do the wave. 0:07:33.116 --> 0:07:36.156 Every stadium has their own ritual, like they're made to 0:07:36.196 --> 0:07:38.836 feel like they're a part of it. So Kululan really 0:07:38.996 --> 0:07:41.836 super charges it and they do it in this beautiful 0:07:41.876 --> 0:07:46.236 way that is totally designed to be a positive experience 0:07:46.596 --> 0:07:48.196 that enriches people's lives. 0:07:48.556 --> 0:07:51.916 You know, it's interesting share because music isn't a prerequisite 0:07:51.916 --> 0:07:54.756 for collective effervescence to occur, but it does seem to 0:07:55.316 --> 0:07:59.756 really foster a ripe environment for that feeling. What makes 0:07:59.836 --> 0:08:02.836 music special and what do you think makes music so 0:08:03.196 --> 0:08:08.116 likely to create a fertile environment for collective effervescence. 0:08:08.476 --> 0:08:10.956 We've done some research in the lab that my students 0:08:10.956 --> 0:08:14.396 are hopefully writing up right now, where we've looked at 0:08:14.396 --> 0:08:17.916 the relationship between music and collective effervescence. And what we've 0:08:17.956 --> 0:08:22.076 found is both that musical events are way more likely 0:08:22.116 --> 0:08:25.596 than non musical events to cause collective effervescence, and that 0:08:25.796 --> 0:08:28.996 events that have collective effervescence, if you look at them, 0:08:29.196 --> 0:08:31.756 have music in them, even if they're not musical events. 0:08:31.756 --> 0:08:36.316 So there's a really strong link between music and collective effervescence. So, 0:08:36.716 --> 0:08:39.436 you know, even at I keep coming back to football 0:08:39.436 --> 0:08:41.436 when I'm talking about this, but as a Buffalo Bills 0:08:41.476 --> 0:08:44.436 fan who's getting excited for the season, it comes to mind. 0:08:44.796 --> 0:08:46.796 But even at these football games, you know, there are 0:08:46.796 --> 0:08:49.596 certain songs that everybody sings. When I lived in Chicago 0:08:49.756 --> 0:08:51.956 was a Cubs fan, you know, you had to sing 0:08:52.076 --> 0:08:55.196 during the seventh inning stretch take me out to the ballgame. Like, 0:08:55.636 --> 0:08:58.956 even these events that are not musical have musical components. 0:08:58.996 --> 0:09:02.876 Religious ceremonies have musical components. If you go to protests 0:09:02.916 --> 0:09:06.436 and marches, people sing songs. So a great question is 0:09:06.516 --> 0:09:09.636 why what is it about music that is so important 0:09:09.636 --> 0:09:12.756 for collective affrovescence. And there are a few things about it. 0:09:12.796 --> 0:09:15.956 One is that it brings people together. So everybody when 0:09:15.996 --> 0:09:19.276 you're singing together, playing together, listening to music together. It 0:09:19.436 --> 0:09:23.236 focuses you on one thing, and being focused on one 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:27.356 thing increases the sense of collective effervescence. Another one is 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:30.356 that it actively engages you in it. So you're singing, 0:09:30.396 --> 0:09:34.796 maybe you're clapping, maybe you're dancing. You're actively engaged in something. 0:09:35.396 --> 0:09:37.556 And then the third thing is that you are doing 0:09:37.596 --> 0:09:40.036 similar things to the people around you. Not only are 0:09:40.076 --> 0:09:42.676 you singing, but they're singing. Not only are you dancing, 0:09:42.716 --> 0:09:45.396 but they're dancing. Maybe you're clapping in rhythm. Maybe you 0:09:45.436 --> 0:09:48.396 all have your arms in the air. Listener, I raised 0:09:48.396 --> 0:09:51.396 my arms in the air. So all of those things 0:09:51.436 --> 0:09:54.676 that you do are things that connect you to the 0:09:54.716 --> 0:09:56.036 other people who are there. 0:09:56.676 --> 0:09:59.916 What has your research shown about the impact that collective 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:01.916 efforvescence has on our psychology? 0:10:02.636 --> 0:10:06.556 So we find consistently that collective effervescence is related to 0:10:06.676 --> 0:10:10.676 being less lonely, feeling as if you're life has more meaning, 0:10:11.316 --> 0:10:15.196 and feeling a stronger sense of yourself as a person, 0:10:15.236 --> 0:10:18.396 feeling more confident in who you are. So across a 0:10:18.516 --> 0:10:22.556 wide variety of well being measures and social connection measures, 0:10:22.836 --> 0:10:26.596 we find that collective effervescence has a unique impact on people. 0:10:27.836 --> 0:10:32.436 How long after an event does the impact of collective 0:10:32.436 --> 0:10:33.516 effervescence last. 0:10:34.156 --> 0:10:37.876 So our research suggests that these are longer term effects, 0:10:38.076 --> 0:10:41.356 that this lasts for a while. There's some really cool 0:10:41.476 --> 0:10:43.836 research that came not out of my lab but out 0:10:43.836 --> 0:10:47.036 of other labs that looked at like burning Man events 0:10:47.276 --> 0:10:49.996 and found that people had positive effects from those sorts 0:10:49.996 --> 0:10:53.636 of events. A year later, like a full year later, 0:10:53.956 --> 0:10:57.436 you still saw the positive effects from people being at 0:10:57.516 --> 0:11:01.036 large collective gatherings. So that data from other labs, in 0:11:01.076 --> 0:11:04.516 addition to data that we've collected in our labs, suggests 0:11:04.556 --> 0:11:08.676 that these effects linger. They don't just happen during the event. 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:11.796 There's like a glow that we take from them that 0:11:11.836 --> 0:11:14.236 we can carry with us when we're feeling sad or 0:11:14.276 --> 0:11:16.996 down or lonely or as if life is routine. If 0:11:16.996 --> 0:11:21.596 we're smart, what we'll do is we will relive those events, 0:11:21.636 --> 0:11:24.676 those important events from our past, and we get that boost, 0:11:24.756 --> 0:11:28.396 that reminder that we are connected to others and that 0:11:28.476 --> 0:11:32.276 life is special, and that will increase our well being. 0:11:32.876 --> 0:11:35.276 Yeah. I love the economical impacts of this, which is 0:11:35.276 --> 0:11:38.116 you pay for the tailor's swift tickets once, but it's 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:42.156 the gift that keeps on giving, right and By the way, 0:11:42.276 --> 0:11:44.876 if you're like me and spending your weekends in large 0:11:44.916 --> 0:11:48.356 crowds isn't always your thing, I've got good news. You 0:11:48.436 --> 0:11:50.236 don't need to be in a big group to feel 0:11:50.276 --> 0:11:53.956 collective effervescence. After the break, I talked to Shira about 0:11:53.956 --> 0:12:00.596 how we can find it in everyday life too. We'll 0:12:00.596 --> 0:12:06.756 be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:20.636 I'd love to talk a little bit about how accessible 0:12:20.676 --> 0:12:23.676 collective effervescence is to all of us, because, you know, 0:12:23.796 --> 0:12:26.596 I think when we intuitively think about collective effervescence, and 0:12:26.636 --> 0:12:28.396 you were talking about this earlier, we do think about 0:12:28.436 --> 0:12:32.556 these large, stadium size events where we're really surrounded by 0:12:32.636 --> 0:12:35.516 thousands and thousands and thousands of people. And one of 0:12:35.596 --> 0:12:38.036 the most interesting parts of your work to me is 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:42.516 that we don't need to attend these large ethic events 0:12:42.556 --> 0:12:45.716 in order to feel collective effervescence. Right, They can happen 0:12:46.276 --> 0:12:47.556 in these everyday moments. 0:12:48.156 --> 0:12:50.916 We think of collective effervescence as happening in these large 0:12:50.916 --> 0:12:53.476 scale events, and that's because it happens so much easier 0:12:53.476 --> 0:12:55.796 in those large scale events, so they really prime it 0:12:55.836 --> 0:12:59.796 in you. But people do experience collective effervescence and other events. 0:12:59.836 --> 0:13:02.716 And so people in our studies have reported, you know, 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:05.956 they're waiting in line somewhere and something sort of funny happens, 0:13:05.956 --> 0:13:08.596 and everybody gets into like a little conversation while they 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:10.836 wait in line, and they get this feeling that life 0:13:10.876 --> 0:13:13.996 is special and they're connected. One participant told us that 0:13:14.196 --> 0:13:16.356 they're on a bus and if the bus like drives 0:13:16.396 --> 0:13:19.556 by something exciting or something different or something weird, and 0:13:19.596 --> 0:13:22.076 everybody on the bus sort of notices it, that they 0:13:22.076 --> 0:13:24.476 get a feeling of collective effves since they feel like 0:13:24.516 --> 0:13:28.036 they've formed a connection with these strangers and it feels 0:13:28.036 --> 0:13:30.596 good and it stays with them. It brightens their day 0:13:30.676 --> 0:13:33.276 to have that kind of thing happen. Even moments that 0:13:33.356 --> 0:13:35.876 we think of as negative, like being in the airport 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:39.116 and waiting for something, if something sort of special happens, 0:13:39.476 --> 0:13:41.996 it can draw us in and give us that feeling. 0:13:42.636 --> 0:13:44.796 Well, you just read my mind about my experience. So 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:47.036 a couple of weeks ago, I was at the airport 0:13:47.116 --> 0:13:49.556 and waiting for a Southwest flight and we're all just 0:13:49.636 --> 0:13:53.556 gathered and the Southwest attendant was giving us updates on Okay, 0:13:53.556 --> 0:13:55.796 your flight's going to be delayed by this long and whatnot, 0:13:56.276 --> 0:13:59.596 and everyone is kind of baseline irritated because we're all 0:13:59.636 --> 0:14:02.396 waiting in an airport and our flight's delayed. Sure, and 0:14:02.716 --> 0:14:07.636 she randomly begins singing you are My Sunshine, and I 0:14:08.596 --> 0:14:11.636 was so who moved by this. It instantly brought a 0:14:11.676 --> 0:14:15.036 smile to my face the faces of everyone around me, 0:14:15.396 --> 0:14:18.956 and we really did feel united and together in this moment. 0:14:19.276 --> 0:14:21.996 There was like a moment of solidarity. And it was 0:14:21.996 --> 0:14:25.636 interesting because I was reflecting on my experience, my individual 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:29.196 experience of collective efforvescence, and what I realized is that 0:14:29.916 --> 0:14:33.316 I actually feel a more powerful form of it in 0:14:33.356 --> 0:14:37.596 these unexpected, smaller, spontaneous moments. And I think it has 0:14:37.636 --> 0:14:41.356 something to do with the expectations I'm carrying into that situation. 0:14:41.556 --> 0:14:43.996 So when you buy concert tickets, when you go to 0:14:44.076 --> 0:14:46.796 a show, there's an expectation that you will feel connected 0:14:46.796 --> 0:14:48.876 to these other people because you at least know one 0:14:48.876 --> 0:14:51.156 thing about them, which is that you all love this artist, 0:14:51.436 --> 0:14:54.436 you all love this movie, you all love this politician 0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:56.996 that you're rooting for. What was so special to me 0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:00.356 about the airport experience is that the only thing that 0:15:00.476 --> 0:15:02.516 really connected all of us in that moment is that 0:15:02.796 --> 0:15:05.516 we all had a flight that was leaving that morning, right, 0:15:05.996 --> 0:15:09.316 and so there was a wonder in feeling connected to 0:15:09.916 --> 0:15:12.036 this group of people that I really wouldn't have felt 0:15:12.036 --> 0:15:14.676 connected to otherwise. And so that was just an interesting 0:15:14.676 --> 0:15:17.236 observation I had, at least about my own experience, which is, Oh, 0:15:17.316 --> 0:15:20.236 these smaller moments actually give rise to a more powerful 0:15:20.356 --> 0:15:24.836 version of collective effervescence than the large, stadium filled experiences. 0:15:25.836 --> 0:15:28.276 Yeah, I love that. I love your story, and I 0:15:28.316 --> 0:15:31.156 think that that's a great example of collective effervescence. And 0:15:31.196 --> 0:15:35.156 I also think it's a really cool observation that, like, 0:15:35.236 --> 0:15:38.076 the moments that sort of surprise us are that much 0:15:38.116 --> 0:15:41.276 more impactful because we don't expect it to happen, and 0:15:41.316 --> 0:15:44.476 so it's like a gift. And one cool thing is 0:15:44.476 --> 0:15:47.836 that we have control over that to some degree or another, 0:15:48.156 --> 0:15:50.756 maybe not in our own experiences, but we can gift 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:54.596 that to other people, like that gate attendant gifted that 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:57.996 to you all, Like that totally attendant took a risk 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:01.276 and did something super goofy and could have just gotten 0:16:01.276 --> 0:16:05.716 weird stairs but instead created a magical moment, And like 0:16:06.036 --> 0:16:09.116 we all can do that, like that's a human superpower. 0:16:09.476 --> 0:16:12.036 Like when you're waiting in line and everybody's getting cranky, 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:14.876 you can do some weird thing. You can start talking 0:16:14.916 --> 0:16:17.636 to strangers, you can start telling jokes. I find that 0:16:17.756 --> 0:16:22.916 I do it to my children's disgust and embarrassment all 0:16:22.996 --> 0:16:26.796 the time. Right, But I think there is so much 0:16:27.036 --> 0:16:30.196 joy and wonder in being able to step into other 0:16:30.236 --> 0:16:34.716 people's lives and hopefully provide just a few people with 0:16:34.836 --> 0:16:36.876 a cool moment. Even if that moment is like, oh 0:16:36.876 --> 0:16:39.556 my god, look at that crazy lady talking everybody near 0:16:39.596 --> 0:16:43.516 her like I'll try and avoid her. It's a moment 0:16:43.636 --> 0:16:47.876 that people can share, and it's like such a wonderful, 0:16:48.476 --> 0:16:50.716 enjoyable thing to be able to be a part of. 0:16:51.316 --> 0:16:55.156 Yeah, I mean, I so share this feature of your personality. 0:16:55.196 --> 0:16:57.876 I'm sure I've embarrassed so many people that I'm friends 0:16:57.916 --> 0:17:00.796 with because I do have this tendency. I usually like 0:17:00.876 --> 0:17:02.636 to just kind of break the ice or I don't know, 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:05.476 make an offhanded joke or whatnot, just comment on the situation. 0:17:05.996 --> 0:17:08.596 And I feel so warmly embraced by you in this 0:17:08.636 --> 0:17:11.916 moment because you have licensed this otherwise, you know, very 0:17:11.916 --> 0:17:15.316 embarrassing tendency. So thank you for that. Sadly, now I 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:17.716 will do it more. So, this is a little bit 0:17:17.756 --> 0:17:20.996 of an interesting one. So there had been experiences in 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:25.876 the past where I have attended large events and I 0:17:25.916 --> 0:17:29.396 haven't felt that feeling of connection and it actually leads 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:33.796 to an intense feeling of alienation. And so what advice 0:17:33.836 --> 0:17:37.636 would you have for people who don't find themselves feeling 0:17:37.636 --> 0:17:40.556 that sense of connection for whatever reason, or in general 0:17:41.076 --> 0:17:46.156 struggle to kind of lose themselves in these more traditional concert, sports, 0:17:46.276 --> 0:17:49.796 dance venue type things, because sometimes I do feel it's 0:17:49.796 --> 0:17:50.876 hard for me to get lost. 0:17:51.596 --> 0:17:55.676 Yeah. Yeah, it's almost worse to be in that situation 0:17:55.876 --> 0:17:58.156 and not feel it. To feel like people around you 0:17:58.196 --> 0:18:00.836 are feeling it and you aren't, That it's there and 0:18:00.876 --> 0:18:04.916 you expected it and you don't is a really lonely feeling. 0:18:05.396 --> 0:18:07.716 So I think when you're in that circumstance, if you 0:18:07.796 --> 0:18:09.756 and I right now can give a gift to anybody 0:18:09.796 --> 0:18:12.076 listening to this, it would be to remind them that 0:18:12.156 --> 0:18:14.516 we all have that experience. Yes, and when you're in 0:18:14.556 --> 0:18:17.596 that moment where you feel like everybody's connecting except for you, 0:18:18.196 --> 0:18:20.236 everybody is not connecting except for you. There are other 0:18:20.236 --> 0:18:22.316 people there who feel the same way. They're just not 0:18:22.436 --> 0:18:25.076 salient to you. And you know what, every single person 0:18:25.116 --> 0:18:28.556 in this world sometimes has that experience where they don't. 0:18:28.596 --> 0:18:31.436 So I haven't tried this yet, but because of this 0:18:31.516 --> 0:18:34.236 conversation we're having, next time I'm in that circumstance, I'm 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:36.596 going to think to myself, I am now connected with 0:18:36.756 --> 0:18:40.236 every person whoever has felt isolated at an event. 0:18:41.676 --> 0:18:41.836 I have. 0:18:41.916 --> 0:18:45.116 I've heard of a collective of people who feel alone 0:18:45.876 --> 0:18:47.876 like no one here understands them. 0:18:48.196 --> 0:18:50.756 Yeah, there's connection everywhere you look. I love it. Look, 0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:53.356 And I think this speaks to one reason that I 0:18:53.396 --> 0:18:56.156 was so drawn to your approach to this work, which 0:18:56.196 --> 0:19:00.116 is that you're really not prescriptive about how it is 0:19:00.156 --> 0:19:02.356 that people should be in this world, and you take 0:19:02.396 --> 0:19:06.436 a very non judgmental approach to how people populate their 0:19:06.476 --> 0:19:08.316 lives with these experiences. So one thing I've heard you 0:19:08.316 --> 0:19:12.316 say in other context is don't judge yourself. Yeah, don't 0:19:12.356 --> 0:19:16.076 judge yourself for the social experiences you seek out or 0:19:16.076 --> 0:19:17.996 the ones that you resist. So, like, tell me a 0:19:17.996 --> 0:19:20.156 little more about that, because I loved it when you 0:19:20.196 --> 0:19:22.236 said that. I think we all have this inner critic 0:19:22.276 --> 0:19:24.636 that's like why don't I get out more? Why don't 0:19:24.676 --> 0:19:26.796 I do this particular thing that I see bringing other 0:19:26.796 --> 0:19:29.276 people joy? And part of my goal with this show 0:19:29.436 --> 0:19:31.076 is for us to be just like a little bit 0:19:31.116 --> 0:19:34.156 less hard on ourselves when it comes to what constitutes 0:19:34.156 --> 0:19:36.796 our day to day lives and experiences. And so, yeah, 0:19:36.836 --> 0:19:38.276 I'd love to hear a little bit more. 0:19:38.676 --> 0:19:41.756 Oh my gosh, one hundred percent. So you know, my 0:19:41.836 --> 0:19:44.236 background is a researcher in the need to belong and 0:19:44.316 --> 0:19:47.956 I specialize in studying non traditional ways a feeling the 0:19:47.996 --> 0:19:50.236 need to belong, and one of them is this collective 0:19:50.236 --> 0:19:52.876 off revesence that we feel when we're with other people. 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:55.556 We're with strangers, we're with a group of people. But 0:19:55.596 --> 0:19:59.356 this is not everyone's gig. There are people who hate crowds, hate, hate, 0:19:59.396 --> 0:20:01.596 hate being in a crowd, hate being with other people, 0:20:01.796 --> 0:20:04.356 just don't like these sorts of things. And that is 0:20:04.396 --> 0:20:07.756 one hundred percent fine. The bottom line with what we 0:20:07.836 --> 0:20:10.316 have found in our research is that there are many 0:20:10.356 --> 0:20:12.836 ways to feel connection to others, and there are many 0:20:12.876 --> 0:20:15.636 ways to feel as if life is special. And you know, 0:20:15.796 --> 0:20:18.636 we have a lot of research suggesting that engaging with 0:20:18.756 --> 0:20:21.676 narratives like watching your favorite TV show or reading books 0:20:21.796 --> 0:20:24.636 or watching a movie fills the need to belong and 0:20:24.676 --> 0:20:27.836 that's good. It's not bad. And so if you are 0:20:27.876 --> 0:20:30.836 someone who gets exhausted from large groups of people and 0:20:30.956 --> 0:20:32.396 just wants to do that once in a while, but 0:20:32.476 --> 0:20:36.036 most nights wants to like binge watch the office while 0:20:36.036 --> 0:20:39.996 you puddle with your cat, you are not being anti social, 0:20:40.116 --> 0:20:43.796 You're being social. Those are both social activities. The show 0:20:43.916 --> 0:20:47.756 and the cat social activities. So a huge problem with 0:20:47.796 --> 0:20:50.636 our society is we look and we see other people 0:20:50.676 --> 0:20:54.436 on social media and in the world enjoying themselves and 0:20:54.476 --> 0:20:57.396 being fulfilled in these very public ways, and we think 0:20:57.436 --> 0:20:59.956 there's something wrong with us if that's not our gig. 0:21:01.116 --> 0:21:03.116 And I think in my own experience, one thing that's 0:21:03.116 --> 0:21:06.636 been helpful is recognizing that we can see changes within 0:21:06.676 --> 0:21:10.276 ourselves around those preferences over time. As I get older, 0:21:10.396 --> 0:21:12.676 I don't thrive as much in a crowd setting. But 0:21:12.716 --> 0:21:15.876 it just took me a while to consciously realize, hey, Maya, 0:21:15.996 --> 0:21:18.836 you've changed. And so if you're not getting what you 0:21:18.916 --> 0:21:21.396 used to get out of those crowd settings, that's okay. 0:21:21.596 --> 0:21:23.956 Maybe it's a Southwest terminal that's going to give you 0:21:23.956 --> 0:21:28.676 your collective effervescence. So yeah, I do think that we 0:21:28.676 --> 0:21:31.396 should be very exploratory about the various ways that we 0:21:31.476 --> 0:21:32.916 might be able to find it. I mean, it's so funny. 0:21:32.916 --> 0:21:35.796 I was talking with my producer Tyler just yesterday and 0:21:35.796 --> 0:21:39.036 he said, you know, I felt collective effer vescence yesterday 0:21:39.516 --> 0:21:42.876 waiting in line to pick up my kid from school. Right, 0:21:42.996 --> 0:21:45.716 It's like, that's a very boring experience to be waiting 0:21:45.716 --> 0:21:47.996 in line. But he looked around, He's like, Okay, all 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:50.156 of us have these kids, all of us have the 0:21:50.316 --> 0:21:53.436 trials and tribulations of parenthood. Like we're unified in this way, 0:21:53.636 --> 0:21:55.196 and we're all excited to pick up our kids because 0:21:55.236 --> 0:21:56.916 we want to hear what their first day of school 0:21:56.956 --> 0:22:00.676 was like, for example. So yeah, you know, you mentioned 0:22:00.716 --> 0:22:04.636 at the beginning that all of this work, like the 0:22:04.636 --> 0:22:08.116 heart of collective effervescence is our human desire to belong. 0:22:09.116 --> 0:22:12.516 I'm curious to know, beyond the benefits for any given individual, 0:22:13.516 --> 0:22:17.916 what is cultivating this feeling or experiencing this feeling more 0:22:17.996 --> 0:22:19.796 due for society at large. 0:22:20.236 --> 0:22:24.396 This is a really really important question because we live 0:22:24.516 --> 0:22:27.156 in a world where a lot of the traditional ways 0:22:27.196 --> 0:22:30.716 that we feel connected to others have fallen away, So 0:22:30.756 --> 0:22:32.956 people are more likely to work at home, for example, 0:22:33.356 --> 0:22:35.116 or more likely to work in front of a computer 0:22:35.276 --> 0:22:38.116 rather than working with other people. We're less likely to 0:22:38.236 --> 0:22:41.156 have a lot of those face to face interactions. People 0:22:41.156 --> 0:22:45.036 are way less likely to belong to churches and synagogues 0:22:45.076 --> 0:22:48.756 and temples than they used to. And you know, without 0:22:48.796 --> 0:22:51.396 having any judgments about whether religion is bad or good, 0:22:51.676 --> 0:22:53.716 the fact that it brought people together and gave them 0:22:53.716 --> 0:22:56.716