Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: There's this palpable excitement that occurs where you're all there
Speaker 2: in this moment together and something magical is happening and
Speaker 2: you're a part of it. You're fully engrossed. All of
Speaker 2: your senses are being pulled into this moment, and that
Speaker 2: moment is special.
Speaker 1: Doctor Shira Gabriel is describing a form of awe called
Speaker 1: collective effervescence. It's the feeling we get when we experience
Speaker 1: something transcendent with other people, and it can have benefits
Speaker 1: for our mental health.
Speaker 2: We find consistently that collective effervescence is related to being
Speaker 2: less lonely, feeling as if your life has more meaning,
Speaker 2: and feeling more confident in who you are. So across
Speaker 2: a wide variety of well being measures and social connection measures,
Speaker 2: we find that collective effervescence has a unique impact on people.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, we explore the powerful science behind collective
Speaker 1: effervescence and how it's easier to find than you might think.
Speaker 1: I'm Maya Schunker and this is a slight change of
Speaker 1: plans the show about who we are and who we
Speaker 1: become in the face of the big change. Doctor Shira
Speaker 1: Gabriel is a professor of social psychology, and she studies
Speaker 1: the science of belonging. In recent years, she's turned her
Speaker 1: attention to collective effervescence.
Speaker 2: What interests me is the human need for social connection,
Speaker 2: and all around me, I see these examples of people
Speaker 2: finding this sense of connection that we're studying our science,
Speaker 2: but in the real world and things like these fish
Speaker 2: concerts that I went to in my youth, and things
Speaker 2: like political rallies, and I would see video of people
Speaker 2: praying in large groups and think, Wow, this is so amazing,
Speaker 2: Like something is happening there that is important to them
Speaker 2: above and beyond the activity that they're engaging in. And
Speaker 2: I really thought, gosh, we as psychologists should be studying this,
Speaker 2: like psychologically, what is the function of this, Like how
Speaker 2: is this feeling our basic need as human beings to
Speaker 2: feel connected to other people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you walk me through how we first came
Speaker 1: to understand and name this concept of collective effervescence.
Speaker 2: So this was Durkheim, who was one of the founders
Speaker 2: of sociology, and Durkheim did some work where he examined
Speaker 2: people from other parts of the world, from cultures he
Speaker 2: wasn't familiar with, engaged in religious rituals, and he made
Speaker 2: the argument that when you look at these religious risks,
Speaker 2: something is happening, something is boiling up that comes from
Speaker 2: people doing this together. And he called this collective effervescence.
Speaker 2: So this idea that happens in a collective there are
Speaker 2: a lot of people, but there's something effervescent, there's something
Speaker 2: extra there, something bubbling up in these group scenarios.
Speaker 1: I want to help listeners really appreciate the difference between
Speaker 1: collective effervescence and say other types of feelings of connection
Speaker 1: and belonging. So what is the criteria for something to
Speaker 1: be deemed collective effervescence.
Speaker 2: So collective effervescence occurs when we're with other people who
Speaker 2: aren't necessarily relationship partners, and we have a feeling of
Speaker 2: connection to them, and we have a feeling that something
Speaker 2: sacred or transcendent or special is going on. So it's
Speaker 2: sort of the intertwining of those two different things, a
Speaker 2: feeling of connection to others and a feeling that something
Speaker 2: special is happening. That occurs when we're with other folks
Speaker 2: who aren't necessarily our friends. You can have this experience
Speaker 2: if you're with people you know, but that's not necessary
Speaker 2: for it to happen.
Speaker 1: A foundational part of your research examines how people respond
Speaker 1: to this particular experience called kululum, in which the thousand
Speaker 1: person audience is taught a choral arrangement of a song
Speaker 1: on the spot and then they sing it together.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Kululam has had events all over the world
Speaker 2: and all over Israel. And in one event, in particular,
Speaker 2: at the Tower of David, they used the song One
Speaker 2: Love by Bob Marley, and they took this English song
Speaker 2: and they rewrote parts of it in Hebrew and parts
Speaker 2: of it in Arabic, and they brought people from Israel.
Speaker 2: This was during a visit by an important Muslim cleric,
Speaker 2: and so they brought Muslims together and Jews together, and
Speaker 2: Christians and people who are without traditional religious faith. And
Speaker 2: they have people who speak English and Arabic and Hebrew
Speaker 2: and learn the song in all three languages. So really
Speaker 2: bringing people together and merging these worlds in this magical
Speaker 2: and very smart way.
Speaker 1: What do you think Shira makes kululum a particularly unique
Speaker 1: and special form of collective effervescence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean what they have done without knowing it
Speaker 2: is basically taken every single thing that would give a
Speaker 2: person a sense of collective effervescence and supercharged it. So
Speaker 2: they're bringing together people who don't know one another, they're
Speaker 2: giving them a joint focus, teaching them a song. They
Speaker 2: use songs that people have heard before and are familiar with.
Speaker 2: So basically every single thing that we would say like, oh,
Speaker 2: that could increase the likelihood of collective effervescence, they've done
Speaker 2: all those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, it strikes me that this is
Speaker 1: a very active experience for all group participants, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Obviously at concerts we can sing along cur favorite bands,
Speaker 1: but in this case, every member is contributing to the music.
Speaker 1: So what role does that active versus passive element play
Speaker 1: in the feeling of effervescence.
Speaker 2: You can feel collective effervescence without being actively involved with
Speaker 2: just sort of passively watching something. But again, you're going
Speaker 2: to really increase the likelihood that you do when you're
Speaker 2: actively involved in something like in this case, you're actively
Speaker 2: involved in the whole thing. I mean, you learn the
Speaker 2: whole thing, you sing the whole thing, you're in every
Speaker 2: moment with the people around you. But even in these
Speaker 2: events where you would think people are just watching people
Speaker 2: are doing way more than that. So you know, when
Speaker 2: you go to a football game, you're not jumping in
Speaker 2: there and like catching the ball or running down the field.
Speaker 2: They'll arrest you for that. But they do get the
Speaker 2: crowd into it, right, so everybody screams when your team
Speaker 2: is on defense, so that the quarterback can't be heard.
Speaker 2: And every team has like chance that the fans do
Speaker 2: and songs that they sing, and some stadiums do the wave.
Speaker 2: Every stadium has their own ritual, like they're made to
Speaker 2: feel like they're a part of it. So Kululan really
Speaker 2: super charges it and they do it in this beautiful
Speaker 2: way that is totally designed to be a positive experience
Speaker 2: that enriches people's lives.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting share because music isn't a prerequisite
Speaker 1: for collective effervescence to occur, but it does seem to
Speaker 1: really foster a ripe environment for that feeling. What makes
Speaker 1: music special and what do you think makes music so
Speaker 1: likely to create a fertile environment for collective effervescence.
Speaker 2: We've done some research in the lab that my students
Speaker 2: are hopefully writing up right now, where we've looked at
Speaker 2: the relationship between music and collective effervescence. And what we've
Speaker 2: found is both that musical events are way more likely
Speaker 2: than non musical events to cause collective effervescence, and that
Speaker 2: events that have collective effervescence, if you look at them,
Speaker 2: have music in them, even if they're not musical events.
Speaker 2: So there's a really strong link between music and collective effervescence. So,
Speaker 2: you know, even at I keep coming back to football
Speaker 2: when I'm talking about this, but as a Buffalo Bills
Speaker 2: fan who's getting excited for the season, it comes to mind.
Speaker 2: But even at these football games, you know, there are
Speaker 2: certain songs that everybody sings. When I lived in Chicago
Speaker 2: was a Cubs fan, you know, you had to sing
Speaker 2: during the seventh inning stretch take me out to the ballgame. Like,
Speaker 2: even these events that are not musical have musical components.
Speaker 2: Religious ceremonies have musical components. If you go to protests
Speaker 2: and marches, people sing songs. So a great question is
Speaker 2: why what is it about music that is so important
Speaker 2: for collective affrovescence. And there are a few things about it.
Speaker 2: One is that it brings people together. So everybody when
Speaker 2: you're singing together, playing together, listening to music together. It
Speaker 2: focuses you on one thing, and being focused on one
Speaker 2: thing increases the sense of collective effervescence. Another one is
Speaker 2: that it actively engages you in it. So you're singing,
Speaker 2: maybe you're clapping, maybe you're dancing. You're actively engaged in something.
Speaker 2: And then the third thing is that you are doing
Speaker 2: similar things to the people around you. Not only are
Speaker 2: you singing, but they're singing. Not only are you dancing,
Speaker 2: but they're dancing. Maybe you're clapping in rhythm. Maybe you
Speaker 2: all have your arms in the air. Listener, I raised
Speaker 2: my arms in the air. So all of those things
Speaker 2: that you do are things that connect you to the
Speaker 2: other people who are there.
Speaker 1: What has your research shown about the impact that collective
Speaker 1: efforvescence has on our psychology?
Speaker 2: So we find consistently that collective effervescence is related to
Speaker 2: being less lonely, feeling as if you're life has more meaning,
Speaker 2: and feeling a stronger sense of yourself as a person,
Speaker 2: feeling more confident in who you are. So across a
Speaker 2: wide variety of well being measures and social connection measures,
Speaker 2: we find that collective effervescence has a unique impact on people.
Speaker 1: How long after an event does the impact of collective
Speaker 1: effervescence last.
Speaker 2: So our research suggests that these are longer term effects,
Speaker 2: that this lasts for a while. There's some really cool
Speaker 2: research that came not out of my lab but out
Speaker 2: of other labs that looked at like burning Man events
Speaker 2: and found that people had positive effects from those sorts
Speaker 2: of events. A year later, like a full year later,
Speaker 2: you still saw the positive effects from people being at
Speaker 2: large collective gatherings. So that data from other labs, in
Speaker 2: addition to data that we've collected in our labs, suggests
Speaker 2: that these effects linger. They don't just happen during the event.
Speaker 2: There's like a glow that we take from them that
Speaker 2: we can carry with us when we're feeling sad or
Speaker 2: down or lonely or as if life is routine. If
Speaker 2: we're smart, what we'll do is we will relive those events,
Speaker 2: those important events from our past, and we get that boost,
Speaker 2: that reminder that we are connected to others and that
Speaker 2: life is special, and that will increase our well being.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the economical impacts of this, which is
Speaker 1: you pay for the tailor's swift tickets once, but it's
Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on giving, right and By the way,
Speaker 1: if you're like me and spending your weekends in large
Speaker 1: crowds isn't always your thing, I've got good news. You
Speaker 1: don't need to be in a big group to feel
Speaker 1: collective effervescence. After the break, I talked to Shira about
Speaker 1: how we can find it in everyday life too. We'll
Speaker 1: be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk a little bit about how accessible
Speaker 1: collective effervescence is to all of us, because, you know,
Speaker 1: I think when we intuitively think about collective effervescence, and
Speaker 1: you were talking about this earlier, we do think about
Speaker 1: these large, stadium size events where we're really surrounded by
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of people. And one of
Speaker 1: the most interesting parts of your work to me is
Speaker 1: that we don't need to attend these large ethic events
Speaker 1: in order to feel collective effervescence. Right, They can happen
Speaker 1: in these everyday moments.
Speaker 2: We think of collective effervescence as happening in these large
Speaker 2: scale events, and that's because it happens so much easier
Speaker 2: in those large scale events, so they really prime it
Speaker 2: in you. But people do experience collective effervescence and other events.
Speaker 2: And so people in our studies have reported, you know,
Speaker 2: they're waiting in line somewhere and something sort of funny happens,
Speaker 2: and everybody gets into like a little conversation while they
Speaker 2: wait in line, and they get this feeling that life
Speaker 2: is special and they're connected. One participant told us that
Speaker 2: they're on a bus and if the bus like drives
Speaker 2: by something exciting or something different or something weird, and
Speaker 2: everybody on the bus sort of notices it, that they
Speaker 2: get a feeling of collective effves since they feel like
Speaker 2: they've formed a connection with these strangers and it feels
Speaker 2: good and it stays with them. It brightens their day
Speaker 2: to have that kind of thing happen. Even moments that
Speaker 2: we think of as negative, like being in the airport
Speaker 2: and waiting for something, if something sort of special happens,
Speaker 2: it can draw us in and give us that feeling.
Speaker 1: Well, you just read my mind about my experience. So
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, I was at the airport
Speaker 1: and waiting for a Southwest flight and we're all just
Speaker 1: gathered and the Southwest attendant was giving us updates on Okay,
Speaker 1: your flight's going to be delayed by this long and whatnot,
Speaker 1: and everyone is kind of baseline irritated because we're all
Speaker 1: waiting in an airport and our flight's delayed. Sure, and
Speaker 1: she randomly begins singing you are My Sunshine, and I
Speaker 1: was so who moved by this. It instantly brought a
Speaker 1: smile to my face the faces of everyone around me,
Speaker 1: and we really did feel united and together in this moment.
Speaker 1: There was like a moment of solidarity. And it was
Speaker 1: interesting because I was reflecting on my experience, my individual
Speaker 1: experience of collective efforvescence, and what I realized is that
Speaker 1: I actually feel a more powerful form of it in
Speaker 1: these unexpected, smaller, spontaneous moments. And I think it has
Speaker 1: something to do with the expectations I'm carrying into that situation.
Speaker 1: So when you buy concert tickets, when you go to
Speaker 1: a show, there's an expectation that you will feel connected
Speaker 1: to these other people because you at least know one
Speaker 1: thing about them, which is that you all love this artist,
Speaker 1: you all love this movie, you all love this politician
Speaker 1: that you're rooting for. What was so special to me
Speaker 1: about the airport experience is that the only thing that
Speaker 1: really connected all of us in that moment is that
Speaker 1: we all had a flight that was leaving that morning, right,
Speaker 1: and so there was a wonder in feeling connected to
Speaker 1: this group of people that I really wouldn't have felt
Speaker 1: connected to otherwise. And so that was just an interesting
Speaker 1: observation I had, at least about my own experience, which is, Oh,
Speaker 1: these smaller moments actually give rise to a more powerful
Speaker 1: version of collective effervescence than the large, stadium filled experiences.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love your story, and I
Speaker 2: think that that's a great example of collective effervescence. And
Speaker 2: I also think it's a really cool observation that, like,
Speaker 2: the moments that sort of surprise us are that much
Speaker 2: more impactful because we don't expect it to happen, and
Speaker 2: so it's like a gift. And one cool thing is
Speaker 2: that we have control over that to some degree or another,
Speaker 2: maybe not in our own experiences, but we can gift
Speaker 2: that to other people, like that gate attendant gifted that
Speaker 2: to you all, Like that totally attendant took a risk
Speaker 2: and did something super goofy and could have just gotten
Speaker 2: weird stairs but instead created a magical moment, And like
Speaker 2: we all can do that, like that's a human superpower.
Speaker 2: Like when you're waiting in line and everybody's getting cranky,
Speaker 2: you can do some weird thing. You can start talking
Speaker 2: to strangers, you can start telling jokes. I find that
Speaker 2: I do it to my children's disgust and embarrassment all
Speaker 2: the time. Right, But I think there is so much
Speaker 2: joy and wonder in being able to step into other
Speaker 2: people's lives and hopefully provide just a few people with
Speaker 2: a cool moment. Even if that moment is like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, look at that crazy lady talking everybody near
Speaker 2: her like I'll try and avoid her. It's a moment
Speaker 2: that people can share, and it's like such a wonderful,
Speaker 2: enjoyable thing to be able to be a part of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I so share this feature of your personality.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've embarrassed so many people that I'm friends
Speaker 1: with because I do have this tendency. I usually like
Speaker 1: to just kind of break the ice or I don't know,
Speaker 1: make an offhanded joke or whatnot, just comment on the situation.
Speaker 1: And I feel so warmly embraced by you in this
Speaker 1: moment because you have licensed this otherwise, you know, very
Speaker 1: embarrassing tendency. So thank you for that. Sadly, now I
Speaker 1: will do it more. So, this is a little bit
Speaker 1: of an interesting one. So there had been experiences in
Speaker 1: the past where I have attended large events and I
Speaker 1: haven't felt that feeling of connection and it actually leads
Speaker 1: to an intense feeling of alienation. And so what advice
Speaker 1: would you have for people who don't find themselves feeling
Speaker 1: that sense of connection for whatever reason, or in general
Speaker 1: struggle to kind of lose themselves in these more traditional concert, sports,
Speaker 1: dance venue type things, because sometimes I do feel it's
Speaker 1: hard for me to get lost.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's almost worse to be in that situation
Speaker 2: and not feel it. To feel like people around you
Speaker 2: are feeling it and you aren't, That it's there and
Speaker 2: you expected it and you don't is a really lonely feeling.
Speaker 2: So I think when you're in that circumstance, if you
Speaker 2: and I right now can give a gift to anybody
Speaker 2: listening to this, it would be to remind them that
Speaker 2: we all have that experience. Yes, and when you're in
Speaker 2: that moment where you feel like everybody's connecting except for you,
Speaker 2: everybody is not connecting except for you. There are other
Speaker 2: people there who feel the same way. They're just not
Speaker 2: salient to you. And you know what, every single person
Speaker 2: in this world sometimes has that experience where they don't.
Speaker 2: So I haven't tried this yet, but because of this
Speaker 2: conversation we're having, next time I'm in that circumstance, I'm
Speaker 2: going to think to myself, I am now connected with
Speaker 2: every person whoever has felt isolated at an event.
Speaker 1: I have.
Speaker 2: I've heard of a collective of people who feel alone
Speaker 2: like no one here understands them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's connection everywhere you look. I love it. Look,
Speaker 1: And I think this speaks to one reason that I
Speaker 1: was so drawn to your approach to this work, which
Speaker 1: is that you're really not prescriptive about how it is
Speaker 1: that people should be in this world, and you take
Speaker 1: a very non judgmental approach to how people populate their
Speaker 1: lives with these experiences. So one thing I've heard you
Speaker 1: say in other context is don't judge yourself. Yeah, don't
Speaker 1: judge yourself for the social experiences you seek out or
Speaker 1: the ones that you resist. So, like, tell me a
Speaker 1: little more about that, because I loved it when you
Speaker 1: said that. I think we all have this inner critic
Speaker 1: that's like why don't I get out more? Why don't
Speaker 1: I do this particular thing that I see bringing other
Speaker 1: people joy? And part of my goal with this show
Speaker 1: is for us to be just like a little bit
Speaker 1: less hard on ourselves when it comes to what constitutes
Speaker 1: our day to day lives and experiences. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear a little bit more.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, one hundred percent. So you know, my
Speaker 2: background is a researcher in the need to belong and
Speaker 2: I specialize in studying non traditional ways a feeling the
Speaker 2: need to belong, and one of them is this collective
Speaker 2: off revesence that we feel when we're with other people.
Speaker 2: We're with strangers, we're with a group of people. But
Speaker 2: this is not everyone's gig. There are people who hate crowds, hate, hate,
Speaker 2: hate being in a crowd, hate being with other people,
Speaker 2: just don't like these sorts of things. And that is
Speaker 2: one hundred percent fine. The bottom line with what we
Speaker 2: have found in our research is that there are many
Speaker 2: ways to feel connection to others, and there are many
Speaker 2: ways to feel as if life is special. And you know,
Speaker 2: we have a lot of research suggesting that engaging with
Speaker 2: narratives like watching your favorite TV show or reading books
Speaker 2: or watching a movie fills the need to belong and
Speaker 2: that's good. It's not bad. And so if you are
Speaker 2: someone who gets exhausted from large groups of people and
Speaker 2: just wants to do that once in a while, but
Speaker 2: most nights wants to like binge watch the office while
Speaker 2: you puddle with your cat, you are not being anti social,
Speaker 2: You're being social. Those are both social activities. The show
Speaker 2: and the cat social activities. So a huge problem with
Speaker 2: our society is we look and we see other people
Speaker 2: on social media and in the world enjoying themselves and
Speaker 2: being fulfilled in these very public ways, and we think
Speaker 2: there's something wrong with us if that's not our gig.
Speaker 1: And I think in my own experience, one thing that's
Speaker 1: been helpful is recognizing that we can see changes within
Speaker 1: ourselves around those preferences over time. As I get older,
Speaker 1: I don't thrive as much in a crowd setting. But
Speaker 1: it just took me a while to consciously realize, hey, Maya,
Speaker 1: you've changed. And so if you're not getting what you
Speaker 1: used to get out of those crowd settings, that's okay.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a Southwest terminal that's going to give you
Speaker 1: your collective effervescence. So yeah, I do think that we
Speaker 1: should be very exploratory about the various ways that we
Speaker 1: might be able to find it. I mean, it's so funny.
Speaker 1: I was talking with my producer Tyler just yesterday and
Speaker 1: he said, you know, I felt collective effer vescence yesterday
Speaker 1: waiting in line to pick up my kid from school. Right,
Speaker 1: It's like, that's a very boring experience to be waiting
Speaker 1: in line. But he looked around, He's like, Okay, all
Speaker 1: of us have these kids, all of us have the
Speaker 1: trials and tribulations of parenthood. Like we're unified in this way,
Speaker 1: and we're all excited to pick up our kids because
Speaker 1: we want to hear what their first day of school
Speaker 1: was like, for example. So yeah, you know, you mentioned
Speaker 1: at the beginning that all of this work, like the
Speaker 1: heart of collective effervescence is our human desire to belong.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know, beyond the benefits for any given individual,
Speaker 1: what is cultivating this feeling or experiencing this feeling more
Speaker 1: due for society at large.
Speaker 2: This is a really really important question because we live
Speaker 2: in a world where a lot of the traditional ways
Speaker 2: that we feel connected to others have fallen away, So
Speaker 2: people are more likely to work at home, for example,
Speaker 2: or more likely to work in front of a computer
Speaker 2: rather than working with other people. We're less likely to
Speaker 2: have a lot of those face to face interactions. People
Speaker 2: are way less likely to belong to churches and synagogues
Speaker 2: and temples than they used to. And you know, without
Speaker 2: having any judgments about whether religion is bad or good,
Speaker 2: the fact that it brought people together and gave them
Speaker 2: a sense of community is good. And when we see
Speaker 2: this very fragmented world that we live in right now,
Speaker 2: where people are dehumanizing people who disagree with them on
Speaker 2: politics or other issues, it's worrying. So I do think
Speaker 2: getting yourself out there has a real possibility of reminding
Speaker 2: us of the connection that we have to all human
Speaker 2: beings and to everybody on the planet, not just the
Speaker 2: people who we encounter in our little bubbles. It's one
Speaker 2: of the things, frankly, that I love about being a
Speaker 2: Pills fan. I've got to find things that you love
Speaker 2: and your team hasn't ever won a Super Bowl, and
Speaker 2: one of them for me is that I know when
Speaker 2: I'm at a Bill's game that I disagree with a
Speaker 2: good portion of the people there about pretty much everything,
Speaker 2: but there's something that we share, which is a love
Speaker 2: of this football team and these players, and we're all
Speaker 2: at this event together. We're united in this moment. We're
Speaker 2: feeling collective effervescence together, and it is for me personally,
Speaker 2: a wonderful reminder that we're all connected, and it seems
Speaker 2: that we need that more than ever.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you like this episode,
Speaker 1: you might enjoy my interviews with psychologist Daker Keltner and
Speaker 1: violinist men Kim. We'll link to them in the show notes,
Speaker 1: and stay tuned for an extra dose of awe. Next week,
Speaker 1: we're going to revisit my conversation with author Michael Pollan.
Speaker 1: He talks about psychedelics and their potential to unlock all
Speaker 1: inspiring experiences. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
Speaker 1: family includes our show runner Tyler Green, our senior editor
Speaker 1: Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vestola, and our
Speaker 1: producer Tricia Bobita. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song,
Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals special thanks to
Speaker 1: Kululum for letting us hear a bit of their music
Speaker 1: in this episode. A Slight Change of Plans is a
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industry, so big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.