1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,556 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 2: There's this palpable excitement that occurs where you're all there 3 00:00:35,076 --> 00:00:38,476 Speaker 2: in this moment together and something magical is happening and 4 00:00:38,516 --> 00:00:41,916 Speaker 2: you're a part of it. You're fully engrossed. All of 5 00:00:41,956 --> 00:00:45,076 Speaker 2: your senses are being pulled into this moment, and that 6 00:00:45,156 --> 00:00:46,396 Speaker 2: moment is special. 7 00:00:47,116 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: Doctor Shira Gabriel is describing a form of awe called 8 00:00:50,276 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 1: collective effervescence. It's the feeling we get when we experience 9 00:00:54,396 --> 00:00:58,196 Speaker 1: something transcendent with other people, and it can have benefits 10 00:00:58,196 --> 00:00:59,116 Speaker 1: for our mental health. 11 00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:03,676 Speaker 2: We find consistently that collective effervescence is related to being 12 00:01:03,756 --> 00:01:07,316 Speaker 2: less lonely, feeling as if your life has more meaning, 13 00:01:07,916 --> 00:01:11,556 Speaker 2: and feeling more confident in who you are. So across 14 00:01:11,596 --> 00:01:15,836 Speaker 2: a wide variety of well being measures and social connection measures, 15 00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 2: we find that collective effervescence has a unique impact on people. 16 00:01:21,996 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: On today's episode, we explore the powerful science behind collective 17 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:29,396 Speaker 1: effervescence and how it's easier to find than you might think. 18 00:01:33,356 --> 00:01:35,836 Speaker 1: I'm Maya Schunker and this is a slight change of 19 00:01:35,876 --> 00:01:38,516 Speaker 1: plans the show about who we are and who we 20 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 1: become in the face of the big change. Doctor Shira 21 00:01:50,476 --> 00:01:54,076 Speaker 1: Gabriel is a professor of social psychology, and she studies 22 00:01:54,116 --> 00:01:57,636 Speaker 1: the science of belonging. In recent years, she's turned her 23 00:01:57,676 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 1: attention to collective effervescence. 24 00:02:00,396 --> 00:02:03,196 Speaker 2: What interests me is the human need for social connection, 25 00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 2: and all around me, I see these examples of people 26 00:02:07,236 --> 00:02:11,076 Speaker 2: finding this sense of connection that we're studying our science, 27 00:02:11,116 --> 00:02:13,596 Speaker 2: but in the real world and things like these fish 28 00:02:13,636 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 2: concerts that I went to in my youth, and things 29 00:02:16,876 --> 00:02:20,076 Speaker 2: like political rallies, and I would see video of people 30 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 2: praying in large groups and think, Wow, this is so amazing, 31 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 2: Like something is happening there that is important to them 32 00:02:27,676 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 2: above and beyond the activity that they're engaging in. And 33 00:02:31,036 --> 00:02:34,476 Speaker 2: I really thought, gosh, we as psychologists should be studying this, 34 00:02:35,036 --> 00:02:38,556 Speaker 2: like psychologically, what is the function of this, Like how 35 00:02:38,636 --> 00:02:42,196 Speaker 2: is this feeling our basic need as human beings to 36 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 2: feel connected to other people? 37 00:02:44,516 --> 00:02:47,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you walk me through how we first came 38 00:02:47,676 --> 00:02:51,316 Speaker 1: to understand and name this concept of collective effervescence. 39 00:02:52,116 --> 00:02:54,596 Speaker 2: So this was Durkheim, who was one of the founders 40 00:02:54,716 --> 00:02:59,556 Speaker 2: of sociology, and Durkheim did some work where he examined 41 00:02:59,716 --> 00:03:01,996 Speaker 2: people from other parts of the world, from cultures he 42 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:06,636 Speaker 2: wasn't familiar with, engaged in religious rituals, and he made 43 00:03:06,676 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 2: the argument that when you look at these religious risks, 44 00:03:09,636 --> 00:03:12,836 Speaker 2: something is happening, something is boiling up that comes from 45 00:03:12,836 --> 00:03:16,756 Speaker 2: people doing this together. And he called this collective effervescence. 46 00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 2: So this idea that happens in a collective there are 47 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:21,836 Speaker 2: a lot of people, but there's something effervescent, there's something 48 00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:26,756 Speaker 2: extra there, something bubbling up in these group scenarios. 49 00:03:26,796 --> 00:03:30,876 Speaker 1: I want to help listeners really appreciate the difference between 50 00:03:31,436 --> 00:03:35,516 Speaker 1: collective effervescence and say other types of feelings of connection 51 00:03:35,676 --> 00:03:39,596 Speaker 1: and belonging. So what is the criteria for something to 52 00:03:39,636 --> 00:03:41,916 Speaker 1: be deemed collective effervescence. 53 00:03:42,596 --> 00:03:46,476 Speaker 2: So collective effervescence occurs when we're with other people who 54 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 2: aren't necessarily relationship partners, and we have a feeling of 55 00:03:51,356 --> 00:03:54,756 Speaker 2: connection to them, and we have a feeling that something 56 00:03:55,396 --> 00:03:58,636 Speaker 2: sacred or transcendent or special is going on. So it's 57 00:03:58,676 --> 00:04:02,076 Speaker 2: sort of the intertwining of those two different things, a 58 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 2: feeling of connection to others and a feeling that something 59 00:04:04,716 --> 00:04:09,236 Speaker 2: special is happening. That occurs when we're with other folks 60 00:04:09,276 --> 00:04:12,756 Speaker 2: who aren't necessarily our friends. You can have this experience 61 00:04:12,836 --> 00:04:16,156 Speaker 2: if you're with people you know, but that's not necessary 62 00:04:16,236 --> 00:04:17,036 Speaker 2: for it to happen. 63 00:04:18,316 --> 00:04:22,116 Speaker 1: A foundational part of your research examines how people respond 64 00:04:22,156 --> 00:04:26,956 Speaker 1: to this particular experience called kululum, in which the thousand 65 00:04:26,996 --> 00:04:30,756 Speaker 1: person audience is taught a choral arrangement of a song 66 00:04:30,876 --> 00:04:32,916 Speaker 1: on the spot and then they sing it together. 67 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:36,876 Speaker 2: Yeah. So Kululam has had events all over the world 68 00:04:36,916 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 2: and all over Israel. And in one event, in particular, 69 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:42,636 Speaker 2: at the Tower of David, they used the song One 70 00:04:42,716 --> 00:04:45,556 Speaker 2: Love by Bob Marley, and they took this English song 71 00:04:45,716 --> 00:04:48,236 Speaker 2: and they rewrote parts of it in Hebrew and parts 72 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 2: of it in Arabic, and they brought people from Israel. 73 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:54,996 Speaker 2: This was during a visit by an important Muslim cleric, 74 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 2: and so they brought Muslims together and Jews together, and 75 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:02,116 Speaker 2: Christians and people who are without traditional religious faith. And 76 00:05:02,196 --> 00:05:05,676 Speaker 2: they have people who speak English and Arabic and Hebrew 77 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 2: and learn the song in all three languages. So really 78 00:05:09,596 --> 00:05:13,476 Speaker 2: bringing people together and merging these worlds in this magical 79 00:05:13,796 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 2: and very smart way. 80 00:05:43,156 --> 00:05:46,676 Speaker 1: What do you think Shira makes kululum a particularly unique 81 00:05:46,716 --> 00:05:49,196 Speaker 1: and special form of collective effervescence. 82 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:54,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean what they have done without knowing it 83 00:05:54,236 --> 00:05:57,996 Speaker 2: is basically taken every single thing that would give a 84 00:05:58,036 --> 00:06:02,236 Speaker 2: person a sense of collective effervescence and supercharged it. So 85 00:06:02,276 --> 00:06:05,116 Speaker 2: they're bringing together people who don't know one another, they're 86 00:06:05,116 --> 00:06:10,916 Speaker 2: giving them a joint focus, teaching them a song. They 87 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 2: use songs that people have heard before and are familiar with. 88 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:19,516 Speaker 2: So basically every single thing that we would say like, oh, 89 00:06:19,596 --> 00:06:23,476 Speaker 2: that could increase the likelihood of collective effervescence, they've done 90 00:06:23,556 --> 00:06:24,316 Speaker 2: all those things. 91 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, it strikes me that this is 92 00:06:26,996 --> 00:06:30,036 Speaker 1: a very active experience for all group participants, right. 93 00:06:30,156 --> 00:06:30,556 Speaker 2: Yeah. 94 00:06:30,596 --> 00:06:33,196 Speaker 1: Obviously at concerts we can sing along cur favorite bands, 95 00:06:33,196 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 1: but in this case, every member is contributing to the music. 96 00:06:36,676 --> 00:06:40,716 Speaker 1: So what role does that active versus passive element play 97 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:42,436 Speaker 1: in the feeling of effervescence. 98 00:06:43,076 --> 00:06:46,796 Speaker 2: You can feel collective effervescence without being actively involved with 99 00:06:46,996 --> 00:06:50,396 Speaker 2: just sort of passively watching something. But again, you're going 100 00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 2: to really increase the likelihood that you do when you're 101 00:06:53,796 --> 00:06:57,676 Speaker 2: actively involved in something like in this case, you're actively 102 00:06:57,676 --> 00:06:59,516 Speaker 2: involved in the whole thing. I mean, you learn the 103 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 2: whole thing, you sing the whole thing, you're in every 104 00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 2: moment with the people around you. But even in these 105 00:07:04,636 --> 00:07:07,396 Speaker 2: events where you would think people are just watching people 106 00:07:07,436 --> 00:07:10,036 Speaker 2: are doing way more than that. So you know, when 107 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 2: you go to a football game, you're not jumping in 108 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:14,876 Speaker 2: there and like catching the ball or running down the field. 109 00:07:15,356 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 2: They'll arrest you for that. But they do get the 110 00:07:17,836 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 2: crowd into it, right, so everybody screams when your team 111 00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:25,036 Speaker 2: is on defense, so that the quarterback can't be heard. 112 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:28,596 Speaker 2: And every team has like chance that the fans do 113 00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:32,636 Speaker 2: and songs that they sing, and some stadiums do the wave. 114 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 2: Every stadium has their own ritual, like they're made to 115 00:07:36,196 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 2: feel like they're a part of it. So Kululan really 116 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 2: super charges it and they do it in this beautiful 117 00:07:41,876 --> 00:07:46,236 Speaker 2: way that is totally designed to be a positive experience 118 00:07:46,596 --> 00:07:48,196 Speaker 2: that enriches people's lives. 119 00:07:48,556 --> 00:07:51,916 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting share because music isn't a prerequisite 120 00:07:51,916 --> 00:07:54,756 Speaker 1: for collective effervescence to occur, but it does seem to 121 00:07:55,316 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 1: really foster a ripe environment for that feeling. What makes 122 00:07:59,836 --> 00:08:02,836 Speaker 1: music special and what do you think makes music so 123 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:08,116 Speaker 1: likely to create a fertile environment for collective effervescence. 124 00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:10,956 Speaker 2: We've done some research in the lab that my students 125 00:08:10,956 --> 00:08:14,396 Speaker 2: are hopefully writing up right now, where we've looked at 126 00:08:14,396 --> 00:08:17,916 Speaker 2: the relationship between music and collective effervescence. And what we've 127 00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:22,076 Speaker 2: found is both that musical events are way more likely 128 00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:25,596 Speaker 2: than non musical events to cause collective effervescence, and that 129 00:08:25,796 --> 00:08:28,996 Speaker 2: events that have collective effervescence, if you look at them, 130 00:08:29,196 --> 00:08:31,756 Speaker 2: have music in them, even if they're not musical events. 131 00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:36,316 Speaker 2: So there's a really strong link between music and collective effervescence. So, 132 00:08:36,716 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 2: you know, even at I keep coming back to football 133 00:08:39,436 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 2: when I'm talking about this, but as a Buffalo Bills 134 00:08:41,476 --> 00:08:44,436 Speaker 2: fan who's getting excited for the season, it comes to mind. 135 00:08:44,796 --> 00:08:46,796 Speaker 2: But even at these football games, you know, there are 136 00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:49,596 Speaker 2: certain songs that everybody sings. When I lived in Chicago 137 00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:51,956 Speaker 2: was a Cubs fan, you know, you had to sing 138 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:55,196 Speaker 2: during the seventh inning stretch take me out to the ballgame. Like, 139 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:58,956 Speaker 2: even these events that are not musical have musical components. 140 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:02,876 Speaker 2: Religious ceremonies have musical components. If you go to protests 141 00:09:02,916 --> 00:09:06,436 Speaker 2: and marches, people sing songs. So a great question is 142 00:09:06,516 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 2: why what is it about music that is so important 143 00:09:09,636 --> 00:09:12,756 Speaker 2: for collective affrovescence. And there are a few things about it. 144 00:09:12,796 --> 00:09:15,956 Speaker 2: One is that it brings people together. So everybody when 145 00:09:15,996 --> 00:09:19,276 Speaker 2: you're singing together, playing together, listening to music together. It 146 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 2: focuses you on one thing, and being focused on one 147 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:27,356 Speaker 2: thing increases the sense of collective effervescence. Another one is 148 00:09:27,396 --> 00:09:30,356 Speaker 2: that it actively engages you in it. So you're singing, 149 00:09:30,396 --> 00:09:34,796 Speaker 2: maybe you're clapping, maybe you're dancing. You're actively engaged in something. 150 00:09:35,396 --> 00:09:37,556 Speaker 2: And then the third thing is that you are doing 151 00:09:37,596 --> 00:09:40,036 Speaker 2: similar things to the people around you. Not only are 152 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:42,676 Speaker 2: you singing, but they're singing. Not only are you dancing, 153 00:09:42,716 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 2: but they're dancing. Maybe you're clapping in rhythm. Maybe you 154 00:09:45,436 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 2: all have your arms in the air. Listener, I raised 155 00:09:48,396 --> 00:09:51,396 Speaker 2: my arms in the air. So all of those things 156 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:54,676 Speaker 2: that you do are things that connect you to the 157 00:09:54,716 --> 00:09:56,036 Speaker 2: other people who are there. 158 00:09:56,676 --> 00:09:59,916 Speaker 1: What has your research shown about the impact that collective 159 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 1: efforvescence has on our psychology? 160 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:06,556 Speaker 2: So we find consistently that collective effervescence is related to 161 00:10:06,676 --> 00:10:10,676 Speaker 2: being less lonely, feeling as if you're life has more meaning, 162 00:10:11,316 --> 00:10:15,196 Speaker 2: and feeling a stronger sense of yourself as a person, 163 00:10:15,236 --> 00:10:18,396 Speaker 2: feeling more confident in who you are. So across a 164 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:22,556 Speaker 2: wide variety of well being measures and social connection measures, 165 00:10:22,836 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 2: we find that collective effervescence has a unique impact on people. 166 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 1: How long after an event does the impact of collective 167 00:10:32,436 --> 00:10:33,516 Speaker 1: effervescence last. 168 00:10:34,156 --> 00:10:37,876 Speaker 2: So our research suggests that these are longer term effects, 169 00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,356 Speaker 2: that this lasts for a while. There's some really cool 170 00:10:41,476 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 2: research that came not out of my lab but out 171 00:10:43,836 --> 00:10:47,036 Speaker 2: of other labs that looked at like burning Man events 172 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:49,996 Speaker 2: and found that people had positive effects from those sorts 173 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 2: of events. A year later, like a full year later, 174 00:10:53,956 --> 00:10:57,436 Speaker 2: you still saw the positive effects from people being at 175 00:10:57,516 --> 00:11:01,036 Speaker 2: large collective gatherings. So that data from other labs, in 176 00:11:01,076 --> 00:11:04,516 Speaker 2: addition to data that we've collected in our labs, suggests 177 00:11:04,556 --> 00:11:08,676 Speaker 2: that these effects linger. They don't just happen during the event. 178 00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:11,796 Speaker 2: There's like a glow that we take from them that 179 00:11:11,836 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 2: we can carry with us when we're feeling sad or 180 00:11:14,276 --> 00:11:16,996 Speaker 2: down or lonely or as if life is routine. If 181 00:11:16,996 --> 00:11:21,596 Speaker 2: we're smart, what we'll do is we will relive those events, 182 00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:24,676 Speaker 2: those important events from our past, and we get that boost, 183 00:11:24,756 --> 00:11:28,396 Speaker 2: that reminder that we are connected to others and that 184 00:11:28,476 --> 00:11:32,276 Speaker 2: life is special, and that will increase our well being. 185 00:11:32,876 --> 00:11:35,276 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the economical impacts of this, which is 186 00:11:35,276 --> 00:11:38,116 Speaker 1: you pay for the tailor's swift tickets once, but it's 187 00:11:38,116 --> 00:11:42,156 Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on giving, right and By the way, 188 00:11:42,276 --> 00:11:44,876 Speaker 1: if you're like me and spending your weekends in large 189 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 1: crowds isn't always your thing, I've got good news. You 190 00:11:48,436 --> 00:11:50,236 Speaker 1: don't need to be in a big group to feel 191 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:53,956 Speaker 1: collective effervescence. After the break, I talked to Shira about 192 00:11:53,956 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 1: how we can find it in everyday life too. We'll 193 00:12:00,596 --> 00:12:06,756 Speaker 1: be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 194 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 1: I'd love to talk a little bit about how accessible 195 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 1: collective effervescence is to all of us, because, you know, 196 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:26,596 Speaker 1: I think when we intuitively think about collective effervescence, and 197 00:12:26,636 --> 00:12:28,396 Speaker 1: you were talking about this earlier, we do think about 198 00:12:28,436 --> 00:12:32,556 Speaker 1: these large, stadium size events where we're really surrounded by 199 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:35,516 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of people. And one of 200 00:12:35,596 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: the most interesting parts of your work to me is 201 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:42,516 Speaker 1: that we don't need to attend these large ethic events 202 00:12:42,556 --> 00:12:45,716 Speaker 1: in order to feel collective effervescence. Right, They can happen 203 00:12:46,276 --> 00:12:47,556 Speaker 1: in these everyday moments. 204 00:12:48,156 --> 00:12:50,916 Speaker 2: We think of collective effervescence as happening in these large 205 00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:53,476 Speaker 2: scale events, and that's because it happens so much easier 206 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:55,796 Speaker 2: in those large scale events, so they really prime it 207 00:12:55,836 --> 00:12:59,796 Speaker 2: in you. But people do experience collective effervescence and other events. 208 00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 2: And so people in our studies have reported, you know, 209 00:13:02,716 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 2: they're waiting in line somewhere and something sort of funny happens, 210 00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:08,596 Speaker 2: and everybody gets into like a little conversation while they 211 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:10,836 Speaker 2: wait in line, and they get this feeling that life 212 00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:13,996 Speaker 2: is special and they're connected. One participant told us that 213 00:13:14,196 --> 00:13:16,356 Speaker 2: they're on a bus and if the bus like drives 214 00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:19,556 Speaker 2: by something exciting or something different or something weird, and 215 00:13:19,596 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 2: everybody on the bus sort of notices it, that they 216 00:13:22,076 --> 00:13:24,476 Speaker 2: get a feeling of collective effves since they feel like 217 00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:28,036 Speaker 2: they've formed a connection with these strangers and it feels 218 00:13:28,036 --> 00:13:30,596 Speaker 2: good and it stays with them. It brightens their day 219 00:13:30,676 --> 00:13:33,276 Speaker 2: to have that kind of thing happen. Even moments that 220 00:13:33,356 --> 00:13:35,876 Speaker 2: we think of as negative, like being in the airport 221 00:13:35,916 --> 00:13:39,116 Speaker 2: and waiting for something, if something sort of special happens, 222 00:13:39,476 --> 00:13:41,996 Speaker 2: it can draw us in and give us that feeling. 223 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 1: Well, you just read my mind about my experience. So 224 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:47,036 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, I was at the airport 225 00:13:47,116 --> 00:13:49,556 Speaker 1: and waiting for a Southwest flight and we're all just 226 00:13:49,636 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 1: gathered and the Southwest attendant was giving us updates on Okay, 227 00:13:53,556 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 1: your flight's going to be delayed by this long and whatnot, 228 00:13:56,276 --> 00:13:59,596 Speaker 1: and everyone is kind of baseline irritated because we're all 229 00:13:59,636 --> 00:14:02,396 Speaker 1: waiting in an airport and our flight's delayed. Sure, and 230 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:07,636 Speaker 1: she randomly begins singing you are My Sunshine, and I 231 00:14:08,596 --> 00:14:11,636 Speaker 1: was so who moved by this. It instantly brought a 232 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:15,036 Speaker 1: smile to my face the faces of everyone around me, 233 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 1: and we really did feel united and together in this moment. 234 00:14:19,276 --> 00:14:21,996 Speaker 1: There was like a moment of solidarity. And it was 235 00:14:21,996 --> 00:14:25,636 Speaker 1: interesting because I was reflecting on my experience, my individual 236 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 1: experience of collective efforvescence, and what I realized is that 237 00:14:29,916 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 1: I actually feel a more powerful form of it in 238 00:14:33,356 --> 00:14:37,596 Speaker 1: these unexpected, smaller, spontaneous moments. And I think it has 239 00:14:37,636 --> 00:14:41,356 Speaker 1: something to do with the expectations I'm carrying into that situation. 240 00:14:41,556 --> 00:14:43,996 Speaker 1: So when you buy concert tickets, when you go to 241 00:14:44,076 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 1: a show, there's an expectation that you will feel connected 242 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:48,876 Speaker 1: to these other people because you at least know one 243 00:14:48,876 --> 00:14:51,156 Speaker 1: thing about them, which is that you all love this artist, 244 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 1: you all love this movie, you all love this politician 245 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:56,996 Speaker 1: that you're rooting for. What was so special to me 246 00:14:57,276 --> 00:15:00,356 Speaker 1: about the airport experience is that the only thing that 247 00:15:00,476 --> 00:15:02,516 Speaker 1: really connected all of us in that moment is that 248 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:05,516 Speaker 1: we all had a flight that was leaving that morning, right, 249 00:15:05,996 --> 00:15:09,316 Speaker 1: and so there was a wonder in feeling connected to 250 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:12,036 Speaker 1: this group of people that I really wouldn't have felt 251 00:15:12,036 --> 00:15:14,676 Speaker 1: connected to otherwise. And so that was just an interesting 252 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:17,236 Speaker 1: observation I had, at least about my own experience, which is, Oh, 253 00:15:17,316 --> 00:15:20,236 Speaker 1: these smaller moments actually give rise to a more powerful 254 00:15:20,356 --> 00:15:24,836 Speaker 1: version of collective effervescence than the large, stadium filled experiences. 255 00:15:25,836 --> 00:15:28,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love your story, and I 256 00:15:28,316 --> 00:15:31,156 Speaker 2: think that that's a great example of collective effervescence. And 257 00:15:31,196 --> 00:15:35,156 Speaker 2: I also think it's a really cool observation that, like, 258 00:15:35,236 --> 00:15:38,076 Speaker 2: the moments that sort of surprise us are that much 259 00:15:38,116 --> 00:15:41,276 Speaker 2: more impactful because we don't expect it to happen, and 260 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:44,476 Speaker 2: so it's like a gift. And one cool thing is 261 00:15:44,476 --> 00:15:47,836 Speaker 2: that we have control over that to some degree or another, 262 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:50,756 Speaker 2: maybe not in our own experiences, but we can gift 263 00:15:50,796 --> 00:15:54,596 Speaker 2: that to other people, like that gate attendant gifted that 264 00:15:54,676 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 2: to you all, Like that totally attendant took a risk 265 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 2: and did something super goofy and could have just gotten 266 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:05,716 Speaker 2: weird stairs but instead created a magical moment, And like 267 00:16:06,036 --> 00:16:09,116 Speaker 2: we all can do that, like that's a human superpower. 268 00:16:09,476 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 2: Like when you're waiting in line and everybody's getting cranky, 269 00:16:12,516 --> 00:16:14,876 Speaker 2: you can do some weird thing. You can start talking 270 00:16:14,916 --> 00:16:17,636 Speaker 2: to strangers, you can start telling jokes. I find that 271 00:16:17,756 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 2: I do it to my children's disgust and embarrassment all 272 00:16:22,996 --> 00:16:26,796 Speaker 2: the time. Right, But I think there is so much 273 00:16:27,036 --> 00:16:30,196 Speaker 2: joy and wonder in being able to step into other 274 00:16:30,236 --> 00:16:34,716 Speaker 2: people's lives and hopefully provide just a few people with 275 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 2: a cool moment. Even if that moment is like, oh 276 00:16:36,876 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 2: my god, look at that crazy lady talking everybody near 277 00:16:39,596 --> 00:16:43,516 Speaker 2: her like I'll try and avoid her. It's a moment 278 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:47,876 Speaker 2: that people can share, and it's like such a wonderful, 279 00:16:48,476 --> 00:16:50,716 Speaker 2: enjoyable thing to be able to be a part of. 280 00:16:51,316 --> 00:16:55,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I so share this feature of your personality. 281 00:16:55,196 --> 00:16:57,876 Speaker 1: I'm sure I've embarrassed so many people that I'm friends 282 00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:00,796 Speaker 1: with because I do have this tendency. I usually like 283 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 1: to just kind of break the ice or I don't know, 284 00:17:02,676 --> 00:17:05,476 Speaker 1: make an offhanded joke or whatnot, just comment on the situation. 285 00:17:05,996 --> 00:17:08,596 Speaker 1: And I feel so warmly embraced by you in this 286 00:17:08,636 --> 00:17:11,916 Speaker 1: moment because you have licensed this otherwise, you know, very 287 00:17:11,916 --> 00:17:15,316 Speaker 1: embarrassing tendency. So thank you for that. Sadly, now I 288 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:17,716 Speaker 1: will do it more. So, this is a little bit 289 00:17:17,756 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 1: of an interesting one. So there had been experiences in 290 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:25,876 Speaker 1: the past where I have attended large events and I 291 00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:29,396 Speaker 1: haven't felt that feeling of connection and it actually leads 292 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:33,796 Speaker 1: to an intense feeling of alienation. And so what advice 293 00:17:33,836 --> 00:17:37,636 Speaker 1: would you have for people who don't find themselves feeling 294 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:40,556 Speaker 1: that sense of connection for whatever reason, or in general 295 00:17:41,076 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 1: struggle to kind of lose themselves in these more traditional concert, sports, 296 00:17:46,276 --> 00:17:49,796 Speaker 1: dance venue type things, because sometimes I do feel it's 297 00:17:49,796 --> 00:17:50,876 Speaker 1: hard for me to get lost. 298 00:17:51,596 --> 00:17:55,676 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's almost worse to be in that situation 299 00:17:55,876 --> 00:17:58,156 Speaker 2: and not feel it. To feel like people around you 300 00:17:58,196 --> 00:18:00,836 Speaker 2: are feeling it and you aren't, That it's there and 301 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 2: you expected it and you don't is a really lonely feeling. 302 00:18:05,396 --> 00:18:07,716 Speaker 2: So I think when you're in that circumstance, if you 303 00:18:07,796 --> 00:18:09,756 Speaker 2: and I right now can give a gift to anybody 304 00:18:09,796 --> 00:18:12,076 Speaker 2: listening to this, it would be to remind them that 305 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:14,516 Speaker 2: we all have that experience. Yes, and when you're in 306 00:18:14,556 --> 00:18:17,596 Speaker 2: that moment where you feel like everybody's connecting except for you, 307 00:18:18,196 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 2: everybody is not connecting except for you. There are other 308 00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 2: people there who feel the same way. They're just not 309 00:18:22,436 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 2: salient to you. And you know what, every single person 310 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:28,556 Speaker 2: in this world sometimes has that experience where they don't. 311 00:18:28,596 --> 00:18:31,436 Speaker 2: So I haven't tried this yet, but because of this 312 00:18:31,516 --> 00:18:34,236 Speaker 2: conversation we're having, next time I'm in that circumstance, I'm 313 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:36,596 Speaker 2: going to think to myself, I am now connected with 314 00:18:36,756 --> 00:18:40,236 Speaker 2: every person whoever has felt isolated at an event. 315 00:18:41,676 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 1: I have. 316 00:18:41,916 --> 00:18:45,116 Speaker 2: I've heard of a collective of people who feel alone 317 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:47,876 Speaker 2: like no one here understands them. 318 00:18:48,196 --> 00:18:50,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's connection everywhere you look. I love it. Look, 319 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 1: And I think this speaks to one reason that I 320 00:18:53,396 --> 00:18:56,156 Speaker 1: was so drawn to your approach to this work, which 321 00:18:56,196 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 1: is that you're really not prescriptive about how it is 322 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:02,356 Speaker 1: that people should be in this world, and you take 323 00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 1: a very non judgmental approach to how people populate their 324 00:19:06,476 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 1: lives with these experiences. So one thing I've heard you 325 00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 1: say in other context is don't judge yourself. Yeah, don't 326 00:19:12,356 --> 00:19:16,076 Speaker 1: judge yourself for the social experiences you seek out or 327 00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:17,996 Speaker 1: the ones that you resist. So, like, tell me a 328 00:19:17,996 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 1: little more about that, because I loved it when you 329 00:19:20,196 --> 00:19:22,236 Speaker 1: said that. I think we all have this inner critic 330 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 1: that's like why don't I get out more? Why don't 331 00:19:24,676 --> 00:19:26,796 Speaker 1: I do this particular thing that I see bringing other 332 00:19:26,796 --> 00:19:29,276 Speaker 1: people joy? And part of my goal with this show 333 00:19:29,436 --> 00:19:31,076 Speaker 1: is for us to be just like a little bit 334 00:19:31,116 --> 00:19:34,156 Speaker 1: less hard on ourselves when it comes to what constitutes 335 00:19:34,156 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 1: our day to day lives and experiences. And so, yeah, 336 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:38,276 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear a little bit more. 337 00:19:38,676 --> 00:19:41,756 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, one hundred percent. So you know, my 338 00:19:41,836 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 2: background is a researcher in the need to belong and 339 00:19:44,316 --> 00:19:47,956 Speaker 2: I specialize in studying non traditional ways a feeling the 340 00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:50,236 Speaker 2: need to belong, and one of them is this collective 341 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:52,876 Speaker 2: off revesence that we feel when we're with other people. 342 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:55,556 Speaker 2: We're with strangers, we're with a group of people. But 343 00:19:55,596 --> 00:19:59,356 Speaker 2: this is not everyone's gig. There are people who hate crowds, hate, hate, 344 00:19:59,396 --> 00:20:01,596 Speaker 2: hate being in a crowd, hate being with other people, 345 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:04,356 Speaker 2: just don't like these sorts of things. And that is 346 00:20:04,396 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 2: one hundred percent fine. The bottom line with what we 347 00:20:07,836 --> 00:20:10,316 Speaker 2: have found in our research is that there are many 348 00:20:10,356 --> 00:20:12,836 Speaker 2: ways to feel connection to others, and there are many 349 00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:15,636 Speaker 2: ways to feel as if life is special. And you know, 350 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 2: we have a lot of research suggesting that engaging with 351 00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 2: narratives like watching your favorite TV show or reading books 352 00:20:21,796 --> 00:20:24,636 Speaker 2: or watching a movie fills the need to belong and 353 00:20:24,676 --> 00:20:27,836 Speaker 2: that's good. It's not bad. And so if you are 354 00:20:27,876 --> 00:20:30,836 Speaker 2: someone who gets exhausted from large groups of people and 355 00:20:30,956 --> 00:20:32,396 Speaker 2: just wants to do that once in a while, but 356 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:36,036 Speaker 2: most nights wants to like binge watch the office while 357 00:20:36,036 --> 00:20:39,996 Speaker 2: you puddle with your cat, you are not being anti social, 358 00:20:40,116 --> 00:20:43,796 Speaker 2: You're being social. Those are both social activities. The show 359 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 2: and the cat social activities. So a huge problem with 360 00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:50,636 Speaker 2: our society is we look and we see other people 361 00:20:50,676 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 2: on social media and in the world enjoying themselves and 362 00:20:54,476 --> 00:20:57,396 Speaker 2: being fulfilled in these very public ways, and we think 363 00:20:57,436 --> 00:20:59,956 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with us if that's not our gig. 364 00:21:01,116 --> 00:21:03,116 Speaker 1: And I think in my own experience, one thing that's 365 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:06,636 Speaker 1: been helpful is recognizing that we can see changes within 366 00:21:06,676 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: ourselves around those preferences over time. As I get older, 367 00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 1: I don't thrive as much in a crowd setting. But 368 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:15,876 Speaker 1: it just took me a while to consciously realize, hey, Maya, 369 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:18,836 Speaker 1: you've changed. And so if you're not getting what you 370 00:21:18,916 --> 00:21:21,396 Speaker 1: used to get out of those crowd settings, that's okay. 371 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 1: Maybe it's a Southwest terminal that's going to give you 372 00:21:23,956 --> 00:21:28,676 Speaker 1: your collective effervescence. So yeah, I do think that we 373 00:21:28,676 --> 00:21:31,396 Speaker 1: should be very exploratory about the various ways that we 374 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:32,916 Speaker 1: might be able to find it. I mean, it's so funny. 375 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:35,796 Speaker 1: I was talking with my producer Tyler just yesterday and 376 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 1: he said, you know, I felt collective effer vescence yesterday 377 00:21:39,516 --> 00:21:42,876 Speaker 1: waiting in line to pick up my kid from school. Right, 378 00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:45,716 Speaker 1: It's like, that's a very boring experience to be waiting 379 00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 1: in line. But he looked around, He's like, Okay, all 380 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:50,156 Speaker 1: of us have these kids, all of us have the 381 00:21:50,316 --> 00:21:53,436 Speaker 1: trials and tribulations of parenthood. Like we're unified in this way, 382 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:55,196 Speaker 1: and we're all excited to pick up our kids because 383 00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:56,916 Speaker 1: we want to hear what their first day of school 384 00:21:56,956 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 1: was like, for example. So yeah, you know, you mentioned 385 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:04,636 Speaker 1: at the beginning that all of this work, like the 386 00:22:04,636 --> 00:22:08,116 Speaker 1: heart of collective effervescence is our human desire to belong. 387 00:22:09,116 --> 00:22:12,516 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know, beyond the benefits for any given individual, 388 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:17,916 Speaker 1: what is cultivating this feeling or experiencing this feeling more 389 00:22:17,996 --> 00:22:19,796 Speaker 1: due for society at large. 390 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:24,396 Speaker 2: This is a really really important question because we live 391 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,156 Speaker 2: in a world where a lot of the traditional ways 392 00:22:27,196 --> 00:22:30,716 Speaker 2: that we feel connected to others have fallen away, So 393 00:22:30,756 --> 00:22:32,956 Speaker 2: people are more likely to work at home, for example, 394 00:22:33,356 --> 00:22:35,116 Speaker 2: or more likely to work in front of a computer 395 00:22:35,276 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 2: rather than working with other people. We're less likely to 396 00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:41,156 Speaker 2: have a lot of those face to face interactions. People 397 00:22:41,156 --> 00:22:45,036 Speaker 2: are way less likely to belong to churches and synagogues 398 00:22:45,076 --> 00:22:48,756 Speaker 2: and temples than they used to. And you know, without 399 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:51,396 Speaker 2: having any judgments about whether religion is bad or good, 400 00:22:51,676 --> 00:22:53,716 Speaker 2: the fact that it brought people together and gave them 401 00:22:53,716 --> 00:22:56,716 Speaker 2: a sense of community is good. And when we see 402 00:22:56,756 --> 00:22:59,116 Speaker 2: this very fragmented world that we live in right now, 403 00:22:59,116 --> 00:23:02,476 Speaker 2: where people are dehumanizing people who disagree with them on 404 00:23:02,516 --> 00:23:07,836 Speaker 2: politics or other issues, it's worrying. So I do think 405 00:23:07,996 --> 00:23:12,636 Speaker 2: getting yourself out there has a real possibility of reminding 406 00:23:12,756 --> 00:23:15,676 Speaker 2: us of the connection that we have to all human 407 00:23:15,716 --> 00:23:18,116 Speaker 2: beings and to everybody on the planet, not just the 408 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:21,276 Speaker 2: people who we encounter in our little bubbles. It's one 409 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:23,716 Speaker 2: of the things, frankly, that I love about being a 410 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 2: Pills fan. I've got to find things that you love 411 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:28,876 Speaker 2: and your team hasn't ever won a Super Bowl, and 412 00:23:28,916 --> 00:23:31,596 Speaker 2: one of them for me is that I know when 413 00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 2: I'm at a Bill's game that I disagree with a 414 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 2: good portion of the people there about pretty much everything, 415 00:23:37,116 --> 00:23:39,476 Speaker 2: but there's something that we share, which is a love 416 00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:43,356 Speaker 2: of this football team and these players, and we're all 417 00:23:43,476 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 2: at this event together. We're united in this moment. We're 418 00:23:47,116 --> 00:23:51,556 Speaker 2: feeling collective effervescence together, and it is for me personally, 419 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:57,156 Speaker 2: a wonderful reminder that we're all connected, and it seems 420 00:23:57,236 --> 00:23:59,716 Speaker 2: that we need that more than ever. 421 00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:31,916 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you like this episode, 422 00:24:31,996 --> 00:24:35,236 Speaker 1: you might enjoy my interviews with psychologist Daker Keltner and 423 00:24:35,356 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 1: violinist men Kim. We'll link to them in the show notes, 424 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: and stay tuned for an extra dose of awe. Next week, 425 00:24:42,996 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: we're going to revisit my conversation with author Michael Pollan. 426 00:24:46,756 --> 00:24:50,156 Speaker 1: He talks about psychedelics and their potential to unlock all 427 00:24:50,316 --> 00:25:04,356 Speaker 1: inspiring experiences. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 428 00:25:04,396 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 429 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:11,716 Speaker 1: family includes our show runner Tyler Green, our senior editor 430 00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:16,356 Speaker 1: Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vestola, and our 431 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 1: producer Tricia Bobita. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, 432 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:24,556 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals special thanks to 433 00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:27,116 Speaker 1: Kululum for letting us hear a bit of their music 434 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:30,116 Speaker 1: in this episode. A Slight Change of Plans is a 435 00:25:30,116 --> 00:25:33,276 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industry, so big thanks to everyone there, 436 00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:37,196 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 437 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:40,316 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 438 00:25:40,356 --> 00:25:43,276 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.