1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lam and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: this is going to be part two of our two 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: part episode about tales Now. Last time, we talked about 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: many of the wonderful biological mysteries of tales, about the 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: unsettled science of courtship tales and the role they play 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: in p foul mating. We talked about propulsion, We talked 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: about pre intile tales, climbing, climbing and anchoring, kangaroos using 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: their tails, as as as what to become the rockham 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: sock'em robots that kangaroos are. They lean back on those 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: wonderful stumpy things. Talked about energy conservation, fat storage. But 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about biological methods of communication 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: through tales, tales in in self mutilation for survival, and 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: the question of human tales. Where are they are? Where 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: they go? Are we going to get them back? Perhaps 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: when the world is is perfect, we'll grow that that 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: new utopian tail. We'll get to that too. So one 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: of the first things that we should address is the 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: role of tales in animal communication. I remember we mentioned 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: in the echo Board podcast that much of human communication 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: is nonverbal. It's one of the reasons it's so easy 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: to be misinterpreted over email or in a text message. 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: Your tone, your facial expressions, and your body language supplies 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: sort of the shadow grammar of what you're saying. And 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: for dogs, the tail can do a lot of this work. 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 1: In fact, it might be especially important for dogs because 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: dogs don't have language. They can't speak. They might be 29 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 1: able to communicate something roughly through barks and other vocalizations. 30 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: But but the tail is where it's at. And you 31 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: know this, like some of these things you already know 32 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: by heart, dogs tuck their tails between their legs to 33 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: show submissiveness. That's pretty obvious and widely accepted. You could 34 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: even compare this tail tucking to closed body language and humans. 35 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: We you ever thought about that? Yeah, yeah, so sort 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: of even without the tail, we kind of assume that posture, 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: this sort of you know, passive, helpful pronosaurus uh kind 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: of positioning you can take. Yeah, or if we're if 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: we're feeling apprehensive, we can fold our arms and kind 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: of shrink the way you you would when a dog 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: tucks its tail and gets low. Uh. And we we 42 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: think that dogs wag their tails to show they're happy. 43 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: This is sometimes the case, but not always. I read 44 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: an interesting National Geographic article that talked to an Oregon 45 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: State University animal sciences professor named Monique ou Dell. And 46 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: according to this article, dog's signal playfulness with a circular 47 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: kind of wild, circling wag. But they can also signal 48 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: apprehensiveness too by a showing a slower, more controlled wag. 49 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: That might be the case in general, but some research 50 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: shows it gets even more specific with what dogs communicate 51 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: by their wags. And I want to talk about a 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: couple of interesting papers in current biology on dogtail wagging. 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: So if you have a dog at home, next time 54 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: it starts to wag its tail, look at the directional 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: amplitude of tail wagging. And I do want to throw 56 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: in you yourself or a dog owner? Oh yeah, yeah, 57 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: Are you no a dog? No? I'm I just have 58 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: one horrible cat right now. Um, and they've never really 59 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: been a dog person. But I know that some people 60 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: new to the either new to the show or who 61 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: are used to you know, previous host arrangements. Um, you 62 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: know it may not be familiar that we now have 63 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: dog owners dog people on the podcast right. Well, I 64 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: have one dog. My wife Rachel and I have a 65 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: dog named Charles Darwin. Charlie and I have not yet 66 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: tried to track Charlie's asymmetric tail wagging, which I'm about 67 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: to get into, but I plan on doing that for 68 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: the rest of the week. Anyway, there was a paper 69 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: in March two thousand seven called asymmetric tail wagging responses 70 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: by Dogs two different emotive stimuli. And this, like I said, 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: was in Current Biology, and here a group of researchers 72 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: discovered what they called quote differential amplitudes of tail wagging 73 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: to the left or the right side associated with the 74 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: type of visual stimulus the animals were looking at. So 75 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: what this means is, depending on how you visually stimulated 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: the dog, what you show a dog, it would tend 77 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: to wag to the right or to the left. Now, 78 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: the tail. If you're picturing how a dog's tail wags, 79 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: it goes both ways. It wags back and forth, but 80 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: the amplitude varies, so as it goes back and forth, 81 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: it might trend more to the left or trend more 82 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: to the right. I've never noticed that before. Yeah, And 83 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: so the experimenters put each dog in a special no 84 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: distractions box that didn't allow it to look at anything 85 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: else interesting, and it had one opening that the dogs 86 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: could see through, and it would allow them to see 87 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: things in one direction. And the shoal stimuli they tested 88 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 1: were the dog's owner, and then an unknown person stranger danger, 89 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: and then a dominant unfamiliar dog, so this is a 90 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: dog that has been trained to be the boss and 91 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: kind of scary, and then a cat, and then of 92 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: course a control of a blank panel. And they were 93 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: very interesting results when they observed the dogs in these conditions. 94 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: They found that when the dogs looked at their owners, 95 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: they showed a strong right side wag bias uh, and 96 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: the unfamiliar human got less wagging and a weaker right 97 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: side bias. The cat got much less wagging and a 98 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,119 Speaker 1: very very slight right side bias, the unfamiliar dominant dog 99 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: got a left side bias, and then the blank control 100 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: also got a slight left side wag bias. And the 101 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: interpretation of these results actually had to do with brain lateralization, 102 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: possibly in anticipation of motor control. They said, quote in 103 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: our experiment stimuli that could be expected to elicit approach tendencies, 104 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: So the dog wanting to approach, such as seeing the 105 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: dog's owner, were associated with higher amplitude of tail wagging 106 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: movements to the right side left brain activation, and stimuli 107 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: that could be expected to elicit withdrawal tendencies such as 108 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: seeing a dominant unfamiliar dog were associated with higher amplitude 109 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: of tail wagging movements to the left side, and they 110 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: thought this meant right brain activation. So in the study 111 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: we learned something about how the lateral bias of a 112 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: tailwag indicates the mindset of a dog. But the big 113 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: question is do other dogs notice this? Yeah? Like it? 114 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: I mean it would seem like they would. I mean, 115 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: just based on what we've studied about, you know, human 116 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: micro expressions and whatnot, so many things that are that 117 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: we end up picking up either consciously or subconsciously as 118 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: we're observing another person's body language. And we found out 119 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: the dogs totally do notice this. So the same authors 120 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: of the two thousand seven study, three of them, were 121 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: also authors on a November studying Current biology called seeing 122 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: left or right Asymmetric tail wagging produces different emotional responses 123 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: and dogs. So this is dogs looking at video of 124 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: another dog wagging its tail to the left or right, 125 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: or also a frozen no wag posture, And then I 126 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: thought this was really clever. They tried this both with 127 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: normal video of a dog wagging its tail and then 128 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: also just with a black silhahwett of the wagging dog 129 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: on a white background to eliminate other possible cues from 130 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: the dog, like eyes or facial expressions, and they discovered 131 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: this didn't really make a difference. The silhouette wasn't It 132 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: wasn't a big difference from looking at regular video of 133 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: the dog, And so the researchers measured the dog's heart 134 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: rate and then just observe their behavior as they watched 135 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: the different wags, and the results were that there wasn't 136 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: really a difference between how dogs reacted to the right 137 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: wagon static control, but when they saw a left wag, 138 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: the dog started showing elevated heart rates as if they're 139 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: now experiencing stress or anxiety, and the behavioral observation also 140 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: showed that the dogs exhibited more behaviors associated with stress 141 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: when they saw the left wag. Curiously, both the left 142 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: wag and the static control were more stressful than the 143 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: right wag according to this observation metric. So a dog 144 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: sees another dog with the right wag, that's cool. Dog 145 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: sees a dog that isn't wagging at all, It seems 146 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: like the dog might be getting some stress reaction there, 147 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: maybe because it can't figure out what to make of 148 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: this dog if it's not wagging at all. Dog sees 149 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: a dog with a left wag. That's definitely a stress reaction. 150 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: Something's going on here, okay, And this is definitely the 151 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: kind of thing that a human could pick up on 152 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: two right, Like that that it's not so uh slide 153 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: a movement that we wouldn't be able to see it. No, no, no, 154 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean they were able to measure it with video. Yeah, 155 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: but I wouldn't sure that meant that you had to, like, 156 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, slow it down and all right, let's zoom 157 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: in on the tail and see to what degree it's 158 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: actually moving. You know, this is something we would be 159 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: able to observe. Say that your local dog park. Yeah, 160 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: from everything I could tell, I think, I mean you'd 161 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: have to pay close attention. Okay, So maybe the dog 162 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: park might be too distracting a location to try to 163 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: stop yeah, And so they didn't want to draw too 164 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: many conclusions about exactly what this means about the dog's emotions. 165 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: I I might have gone a little too far if 166 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: I said it was definitely stress a minute ago, because 167 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: what they could look at was these these external behaviors 168 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: and then elevated heart rate. So that could mean any 169 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: number of things. But at least when a dog sees 170 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: another dog wagging left it, it's having some kind of 171 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: elevated response. So in this way, dogs do communicate something 172 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: very relevant about their state of mind with a wag, 173 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: and they can see it in other dogs. And that 174 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: makes me think some interesting questions about the nature of communication. Like, 175 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: in a very different way, the idea of communication by 176 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: tail could also apply to something like a rattlesnake. Mean, 177 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: the rattlesnake is definitely communicating with its tail. It is 178 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: saying don't get near me. Yeah, And so what did 179 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: the dog and the rattlesnake have in common if we 180 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: assume dogs inadvertently communicating information with tail wags, and I 181 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: mean inadvertently here, I'm talking about the fact that the 182 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: evolutionary purpose of the right or left side bias isn't 183 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: necessarily to share information with others. It might simply be 184 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: a totally accidental byproduct of this brain lateralization they're talking about, 185 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like the wag might not 186 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: be an adaptation that was selected for because it shared information. 187 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: It might be an accident, but it's an accident that 188 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: does share information, and now they've learned how to make 189 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: something of that. So in what sense could we say 190 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: that this is communication if it's just an accidental byproduct 191 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: that we've learned how to draw information from. And to 192 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: what extent does communication have to be deliberate? Yeah? I 193 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: mean that kind of underlies the complexity of communication in general, 194 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, this mix of deliberate and accidental cues and 195 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: then and mis cues that we have to make sense off. Yeah, 196 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder about the origins of human language. 197 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: I know that's not exactly the subject today, but just 198 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: like could human could something like human language have come 199 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: from originally I don't know, incidental vocalizations that were not 200 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: intended to communicate information, but they did, And then that 201 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: could develop into something where we harness that for deliberate use. Yeah, 202 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: it could all begin with just a simple you know, 203 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: scream when you're scared, you know, and then that the 204 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: various nuances involved in in in how we interpret that screen. 205 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: Now here's another topic related to tails that I think 206 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: you've done a whole episode on before, which is when 207 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: you pick up a bluetail lizard, you catch it, say, 208 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: in a shoe box, and then its tail comes off 209 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: and the children start screaming, Yes, what's going on there? Well, 210 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: this brings us into the area of autotomy. Uh, as 211 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: it's referred this is the shedding of a tail. Nada. 212 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: You know that the animals not chewing the tail off, 213 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: it's not pulling the tail off. It's just simply and 214 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: not a mouse in a glue trap situation here, just 215 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: a straight up shedding of the tail. And indeed lizards 216 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: get go skinks. H. This is where you you see 217 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: most of the examples of Caudle autonomy caudles and related 218 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: to the tail. And certainly there is a there's a 219 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: whole episode of stuff to blow your mind that goes 220 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 1: into this in a lot more detail and draws from 221 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: specific studies. Uh, But for our purposes here, I just 222 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: wanted to go over in brief what's occurring. Yeah, and uh, 223 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: you mentioned blue tailed skinks. Skilton skink, which is a 224 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: blue tailed skink, is a is a perfect example of 225 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: autotomy because the tail is bright blue, so it just 226 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: adds to the attractiveness of this what is essentially thought 227 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: of as a predator bribe. So like a cat sees 228 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: a lizard and says, I'm gonna eat that lizard, and 229 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: the lizards might not eat it yet. Yeah, yeah, certainly 230 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: there's a whole the I'm going to torture. Yeah, the 231 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: game of cat perdition is is rather complicated and cruel, 232 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: but essentially the lizard reaction is, look, I'm gonna leave, 233 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: but I'm going to leave a little of me behind. Uh. 234 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: First of all, it has fat in it, it's part 235 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: of me. You can eat it and you will get 236 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: a meal out of it. I'm gonna leave you a meal. Uh, 237 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: that's gonna be easier to catch and put up less 238 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: of a fight. But it's also thrashing around as if 239 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: it's alive. It's also bright blue, so it's easier to see. 240 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: So it really is in a sense of bribe. It's 241 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: not just a decoy. It's not just something that the 242 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: cat gets nothing out of. You could eat the tail 243 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: and get some nutrition. Yeah, it's like the you know, 244 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: if you have some sort of like a bank heist 245 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: movie where I've seen this pop up in various stories before, 246 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: where the antiheroes are the heroes have made off with 247 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: the loot that somebody the law enforcement is chasing them. 248 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: Then you have to say, how much money would I 249 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: have to drop out of the back of this truck 250 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: where they would stop, like they would actually pick up 251 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: some of the loot and make off on their own, 252 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: or you know, be satisfied with it. So it's it's 253 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: kind of a gamble that the lizard is making. Another 254 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: example of this kind of behavior. And this isn't certain, 255 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: but there are arguments that a vulture vomits when threatened 256 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: as as a as a form of bribery as well 257 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: just saying you can eat me, I'm going to put 258 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: up a fight, or I could just barf up some 259 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: food here and you can eat that because delicious as 260 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: we all know, I mean, particularly dogs of many animals, 261 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: they're they're not gonna be too picky about their food. 262 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: If it's just because it's been in the belly of 263 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: a vulture, it doesn't mean it can't be eaten. Fascinating. 264 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: Now there's a there's another theory about lizard autotomy, and 265 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: this one comes to us from a two thousand nine 266 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: University of Michigan study of lizards in Greece that concluded 267 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: that the are there drop their tails when bitten on 268 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: the tail by venomous snakes. Wow. Yeah, so it's the same. 269 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: It's they or maybe they don't know. I mean, maybe 270 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: it's not a brain response, but there's some kind of 271 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: automated response. That's that's amazing. Yeah, I mean it's it 272 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: matches up rather nicely with our you know, our zombie 273 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: fiction where someone's bit by a zombie, you know, on 274 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: the Walking Dead, and then you have to solve that 275 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: limb off so that the so that that the zombie 276 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: juice won't seep in and affect the whole organism. But 277 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: the great thing about that, in the zombie stories, you 278 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: never really know if it's gonna work. Yeah, it's true. Well, 279 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: you don't have settled zombie science, do you. It seems 280 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: like it always does. Like there seems to be a 281 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: silent rule of zombie fiction that if you go and 282 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: actually do the grueling hard to watch the limb amputation scene, 283 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: then that character has to survive. You know, I think 284 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: I've encountered it in ways that say it buys you 285 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: some time, but it doesn't completely solve the problem. Maybe 286 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: you've got to a smaller concentration of of zombie juice 287 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: in the door. Then, um, so science scientist, you know, 288 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: to to go back to the cat example, Like scientists 289 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: have long thought the tail shedding is an issue of 290 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: predator pressure. But and so this would mean that the 291 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: more predators there are for a species in a given area, 292 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: the greater the need for an effective defense mechanism. So 293 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: tail dropping explodes in in any area of high lizard 294 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: predator pressure. But this two thousand nine study, um, you know, 295 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: argues that the lizards of the offshore A, G, and 296 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: C Islands examined in the study, Um, in these cases 297 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: it all comes down to an evolutionary reaction to their 298 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: single most pressing predator, in this case the vipers. So 299 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: these are specialized lizard predators, and so you see an 300 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: emergence of a of a specialized uh anti predator defense. Now, 301 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: I wonder how this adaptation affects the viper hunting strategy. Indeed, Yeah, 302 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: because any of these these areas, it's Uh, you know, 303 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: it's an arms race with one side trying to keep 304 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: up with the other. Certainly, So here's a question I've 305 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: never found out. Can they grow it back? They can 306 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: grow it back, but it's not the best way to 307 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: think of it is it's not a full size spare. 308 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: You'll grow back a tail that is uh less functional, 309 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, but but also a tail that can be 310 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: can also be dropped again. So when they dropped the tail, 311 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: the muscles that encircle uh this particular plane of the 312 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: creatures of body, they constrict kind of natural tourniquet to 313 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: to keep the you know, blood from from bleeding out. 314 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: And then immediately after this, the skin also contracts around 315 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: the end of the of the tail, forming a stub, 316 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: and then it goes out from there. In these little 317 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: lizards that are everywhere, that's that's science fiction. It's got 318 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: a natural tourniquet. Yeah. And if you're wondering how it 319 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: even uh severs it to begin with, there's been some 320 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: cool studies and of this they point out that the 321 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: tail autonomy occurs at preformed horizontal fracture points. So essentially, um, 322 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: it's a fracture plane across the vertebra. Um or the 323 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: the the intervertebral and the lizard assists the the autatonomy 324 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: by by contracting the muscles around that fracture plane. And 325 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: here the structural integrity of the tail in its connection 326 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: to the rest of the body is maintained by the 327 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: adhesion force of integrated muscles, complete with micro structures that 328 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: mushroom out when it's time to release the tail man. Now, 329 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: it's of course, it's it's interesting when you start thinking 330 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: about the costs here. You know, the cost of that 331 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: bribe if you're making, or the cost of losing that 332 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: limb to the zombie or the or the viper. Well, 333 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: it's a it's a calculated risk because it sounds like 334 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: losing the tail isn't going to hurt the lizard, except 335 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: that it's just admitting defeat on a certain front. It's saying, Okay, 336 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: I've put a certain number of resources into the tail. 337 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to give it up. Yeah, it's letting. 338 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: It's letting the bad money go down the drain. Yeah, 339 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: the bad money's gone down the drain. And then what 340 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: do you do when another cat shows up. That's it's 341 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: a wonderful trick. But once you've you've used it. You've 342 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: got to regrow that tail to get to the point 343 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: where you can drop it again. Um. So it's a 344 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: it's an interesting strategy and and indeed a gamble, but 345 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: one that's been paying off for him because it's it 346 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: remains a staple of of a number of different reptiles. 347 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: Does anything other than a lizard drop its tail, Yes, 348 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: And that brings us back to the scorpion um. There 349 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: there are rare there are a few rare South American 350 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: scorpions of the Anatrists genus who also practice coddle autotomy. 351 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: And when they lose their tails, First of all, they 352 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: lose it for good. There's no growing the tail back 353 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: in this case. Uh they have. They just drop it 354 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: and it's gone. But also if they lose their tail, 355 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: they lose their anus, and that's because the scorpions anus 356 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: is located at the end of the tail the gut. 357 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: The gut extends through the tail and opens up at 358 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: the back of the fifth segment, just ahead of the 359 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: stinger segment um initially draws. You know, we're talking about 360 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: what's the difference between tails? What are tails like? This 361 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: is a drastically different tail structure than you find in 362 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 1: other creatures because the gut extends back there. I mean, 363 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: the the anus is at the almost the end of 364 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: the tail. That's crazy. Can you imagine if you had 365 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: an appendage that you pooped out of, like if you 366 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: could if you could reach into a hole and then 367 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: poop in the hole, it would it would totally change 368 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: our bathroom behavior, that's for sure. Now you probably wonder 369 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: what happens to the scorpion when it's lost its tail 370 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: and it's lost its anus, uh fleeing from a predator. Well, 371 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: it essentially cannot poop again for the rest of its lie. 372 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: So it ends up just inflating like a fecal balloon 373 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: until it dies. That's a nightmare. Yeah, but hey, it's 374 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: a living nightmare as opposed to just dying. So, I mean, 375 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: that's the hard truth of survival right there. And when 376 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: you've got when you've got pinching claws like a scorpion, 377 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: what else really matters? Yeah, you still have your claws 378 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: like the pinch the world. The creature is still functional. 379 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: As we pointed out in the last episode, um, a 380 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: scorpion doesn't even use its tail when it's dealing with 381 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: a smaller or easier to handle prey, so so you 382 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: can keep stuffing yourself with things that you cannot poop. Ever, right, 383 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: it's it's not game over. It just means you can't 384 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: staying and you can't poop. But life goes on, Life 385 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: finds a way, you know. One of the one more 386 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: thing about autotomy that I thought was interesting is that 387 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: it reminds me of certain mythological tales in these mythical creatures. 388 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: You know, there are tons of mythical creatures that are 389 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: amalgamations of different kinds of animals. So they've got the 390 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: head of a lion and the ways of an eagle 391 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: and the beak of squid or something. But there are 392 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: some animals that have tails that are snake tails, but 393 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: they're not just snake tails as in the tail of 394 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: a snake like a snake's tail, but they have a 395 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: tail that is a snake, as in the front half 396 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: of a snake, a snake with a head. I know, 397 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: I've seen this mentioned, and at least some versions of 398 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: the cerberus or caraboss, smith, the chimera, and I think 399 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: the new a creature all seem to have at least 400 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: in some versions that I've seen mentioned the tales that 401 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: aren't just snake tails but are snakes, And I don't 402 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: know that that seems like an interesting parallel to the 403 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: idea of of tales that can become separated and then 404 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: sort of have a life of their own, like they 405 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: some of these tales that they get cut off keep 406 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: wiggling right, And I wonder if stories like this could 407 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: have been inspired by seeing tales that that can separate 408 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: and continue to live, like is that a snake or 409 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: a worm? Now? Huh? Well, you know. And it also 410 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: would seem in such a creature that it would make 411 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: sense to have a tail that resembles a snake for 412 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: either defensive or predatory purposes. Oh, certainly, it reminds me 413 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: of a particular there's a particular snake and a polotician. 414 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: Not having the details, it's in a I did a 415 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: Monster of the Week post about Cthulhu as Cthulhu appears 416 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: in a particular movie from the nineties and uh, and 417 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: in that I talked about a type of snake where 418 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: its tail is used to lure in other creatures. And 419 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: the tail I believe is supposed to look a little 420 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: bit like, uh, a little bit like feathers, I believe. 421 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: So there are cases where the tail is used as 422 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: a decoy to to lure something in. Huh, well, I 423 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: think it's time to talk about Homo sapiens Robert. Yes, yes, 424 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and when we come back, 425 00:23:50,480 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: we will talk about the human tail. So the big question, 426 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: where's the human tail? Exactly? It's been god for a 427 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: long time. We're angry. We want our tails, you know, 428 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: as as individuals who were not born with them. We 429 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: wonder like, where where are they? Or do we have 430 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: ancestors that once had tails? Um? Because apart from from 431 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: apes um, and then that's the main area. Us and 432 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: our fellow great ape can we have no tails. Yeah, 433 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: but you can look at other mammals. So obviously our 434 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: vertebrate ancestors we believe had tails, but there are other 435 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,239 Speaker 1: mammals that have adapted to not have tails anymore, right 436 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: right there, moles, hedgehogs, guinea pigs, hamsters, bears, bats, koalas 437 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: sloths of goodies, uh, and a handful of other creatures. 438 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: But that we are the larger primates are certainly the 439 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: most outstanding examples. Right So, yeah, we're part of the 440 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: great apes family. When did the apes lose their tails? Well, 441 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: it seems like this happened around twenty million years ago. Uh. 442 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: Fossil evidence points to proconsul an early fossil eight from 443 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: about eighteen to twenty million years ago, located Eastern Africa 444 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: areas including Kenya and Uganda. And in this particular species, 445 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: based on the fossil evidence, again we see a mixture 446 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: of Old World monkey and eight characteristics. UH. And it's 447 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: one of the if not the first eight species that 448 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: we see without a tail, based again on what the 449 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: bones tell us. Now it still raises the question though, alright, 450 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: so twenty million years ago, that's the timeline. But why right, 451 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: So if tails are useful, why don't we have them anymore? 452 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: And I think this draws on a principle of evolution 453 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: that that we often see, which is that over time, 454 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: if you're not making use of something, you'll lose it. 455 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: If you don't need it, it'll go away. It might 456 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: take some time to go away, but eventually it will 457 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: go away. It's just the basic economics of evolution. You know, 458 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: things like all these features that you have. It's like 459 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: explaining it to a child, right, all these fancy features 460 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: we have in the house. These are extra and if 461 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: we're not using that lightbulb, then uh, in that lamp, 462 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: we need to turn it off. And then that's kind 463 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: of just the natural way that the forms constrict and 464 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: grow over time. But what are some major hypotheses about 465 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: why it's lost their tails, like why did they become useless? Well, 466 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: I was reading about this and Reachard Richard Dawkins the 467 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: ancestors tail and that's t a l e. By the way, 468 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: it's not all about tales, but he he points out 469 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: that this is largely an under addressed topic and evolutionary biology, 470 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: but they're there are a couple of theories that he discusses. 471 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: One is the hopeful monster theory. Yeah, and this this 472 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: has to do with this sort of random mutation. He 473 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: points out that that max cats have a single gene 474 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: that makes them tail less. These are the cats that 475 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: don't have tails tail as cats. And it all comes 476 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: down to again, do just a single gene. And it's 477 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: also homozygous, meaning that it's lethal if present twice, so 478 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: it's un likely to spread through evolution. But the idea 479 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,719 Speaker 1: he is here is that perhaps some form of max monkey, 480 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: some sort of random tail was monks monkey was an 481 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: exception to the rule, and this random mutation just became 482 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: the norm. Not a very exciting theory, but it Anny 483 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: lays it out as sort of a you know, a 484 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: distant possibility here, those just sort of an accident amplified, right. 485 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: The better theory the more the one with more weight 486 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: to it. Here is the biped theory, and this is 487 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: that uh that many tailed primates are occasional bipeds, and 488 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 1: when something like a spider monkey walks in all fours, 489 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: the tail gets in the way. So it can be 490 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: surmised that tree active gibbons have no tails because they 491 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: project themselves to other branches from a vertical hanging position 492 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: rather than the monkey's horizontal leaping posture. For the gibbon, 493 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: the tail would be a drag rather than a steadying rudder. 494 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: This sort of goes back to what I was talking 495 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: about in the previous episode. When you see all these 496 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: New World monkeys with their pre insile tails, um you 497 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: you often see them in these thickly forested environments where 498 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: they're they're swinging from trees and they're using the tails 499 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: and in climbing situations. The more bipedal you get it 500 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: seems like the less need you really have for a tail. 501 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that the large vegetarian for the 502 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: most part, land based apes perhaps had increasingly little use 503 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: for either fast attacks or speedy retreats from predators, you 504 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: know which in which case that that tail would be 505 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: handy and shooting up into the trees, etcetera. And as such, 506 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: many of the primary tail uses were lost to them. Again, 507 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: it's just the the economics of evolution. You can also 508 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: factor communication into this, because if we're using we're depending 509 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: more on vocalization, then maybe there's less need for that 510 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: communication uh device that we call a tail. If you 511 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: can say words, you don't need the dogs right egg 512 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: left wag signal. Yeah, it's really the interesting thing about 513 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: this topic is, like all these different animal examples we've 514 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: brought up, we kind of had to go through all 515 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: those to even address this still unanswered question of where 516 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: the tail went, because you have to think about not 517 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: only what a tail doesn't and you know, for one species, 518 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: but what a tail can do across the board to 519 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: end up with some sort of answer for why we 520 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: don't have one at all. Yeah, Now this is funny 521 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: because we're saying we don't have tails, which is true, 522 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: but in a certain way that's not exactly true. That's right, 523 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: because we do have tailbones. We do, and m it's 524 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: just kind of a it's a vestigial um part of 525 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: our vertebrae, just sort of coiled up there, uh, you know, 526 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: inside our butts essentially. Uh. And it's also why it 527 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: hurts so much if you fall, particularly if you fall 528 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: into the small in your back or directly under your butt, 529 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: say while you're um, you know, skating or something, because 530 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: there's there's not enough padding for the cossacks back there. Now, 531 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: as we mentioned either at the beginning of this episode 532 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: or perhaps at the beginning of the first tail episode, 533 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: um tales are hard coded into us enough that they 534 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: remain a part of our embryonic development. Right, So if 535 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: you watch an embryo develop in the womb, you'll you 536 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: can see stages where it gets a tail and then 537 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: it loses the tail again. Yeah. And we've all seen 538 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: comparisons between say, a killer whale embryo and a human 539 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: embryo and how close they are, right, because essentially you 540 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: have this sort of uh, you know, theygue mammalian embryo 541 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: that then develops more and more until it looks more 542 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: and more human or more and more like a killer whale. 543 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: During the fifth and six weeks weeks of life, the 544 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: human embryo has a tail with ten to twelve vertebrae, 545 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: and it's by eight weeks that it that it disappears completely. 546 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: You just suck it back in. Yeah, so it's just 547 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like it comes out factory. 548 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: The factory model has the tail and then you lose it. Yeah, 549 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I've definitely read about cases where tail 550 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: also have reappeared in babies born in the in the 551 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: modern world. Oh yeah, yeah, we get into the case 552 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: of of atavism. Ativism refers to traits of distant ancestors 553 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: that reappear in modern day and the most pressing example 554 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: of this is the tail, probably because it's just resonates 555 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: more culturally. It's like the idea of like a human 556 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: with a tail, are they really a human? What's happening here? 557 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: You know, the fear that we're more beastial than than 558 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: enlightened human. Right, And I guess there are a couple 559 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: of types of tails you could be born with. Right, 560 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: that's right, there's a pseudo tail and the much rare, 561 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: quote unquote true human tail. Uh. The pseudo tail doesn't 562 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: have any bones or cartilage. It's just skin and fat, 563 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: and as such it's it's easily removed. Uh. Pseudo tails, 564 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: they just have a superficial resemblance to true tales. Uh. 565 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: They're also a number of growths or cysts that can 566 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: form right at the tip of the tailbone. Some of 567 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: the more um, you know, unpleasant options are actually large tumors, elongations, 568 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: elongations of existing vertebrae. Uh. And then also in cases 569 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: of parasitic twins, there's also it can be some tissue 570 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: that that that forms back there. So your lost twin 571 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: could be a tale essentially, yeah. Uh. And then there 572 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,479 Speaker 1: are the true tales. But the human true tale is uh, 573 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: this kind of a controversial subject. I mean a little bit. 574 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: I've seen it written about as if it's more controversial. 575 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: But then in some sources are more firm on the matter. Um, 576 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: it has nerves and muscles, and sometimes according to some 577 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: you'll find cartilage and vertebrae. Uh. According to the two 578 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: thousand twelve paper Spectrum of Human Tales, a report of 579 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: six cases, they indicate that bones cartilage, uh not a 580 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: chord and spinal cord are lacking in even a true tale. 581 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: As such, a true tale is easily removed surgically without 582 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: residual effects. And it's only you know, rarely is it 583 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: some sort of a family trait. There's only one case 584 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: in you know, in recent history, uh where we where 585 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: it's been reported that they were actually vertebrae in the 586 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: human tale. So by and large, even a true quote 587 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: unquote true tale in a human is not an extension 588 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: of the vertebrate. So it's worth keeping in mind. And 589 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: and it's such it's it's easily removed. So in most 590 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: cases this would not be something that an individual would 591 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: carry around with them, assuming they had adequate access to 592 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: medical care. So we still can't say, one ever, cent 593 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: for sure why we lost the tale. Um, there's some 594 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, convincing theories here, convincing arguments. I mean, essentially, 595 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: we lost it because we did not need it anymore. 596 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: But that of course leads us to the question of 597 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: are we ever going to get tales again? Right? I mean, 598 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: just because we're rere evolved to get them back? Yeah, 599 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: I mean in a way, if we still have the 600 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: genetic blueprints somewhere in our DNA about how to make 601 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: a tale, and then said, we're just saying no, don't 602 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: do that anymore. What if we reverse that process and 603 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: said no, by all means build it? You know, yeah, 604 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: I mean the to go back to the hyperion reference 605 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: that I made earlier, an orbital environmental gravity environment. Seems 606 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 1: like that would be a prime example of a case 607 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: where humans might potentially evolve that tale. Right, But you 608 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: don't have to imagine space travel to think that humans 609 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: might get tales again, that's right. We can find discussions 610 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: of human tales and sort of trans human tales in 611 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: the works of Charles Fourier, a French philosopher. He lived 612 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy two through eighteen thirty seven. Uh also an 613 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: influential early socialist thinker who had a rather substantial impact 614 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: on utopian thinking, so particularly in the utopian societies of 615 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: the mid eighteen hundreds. You know this guy. When I 616 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 1: was reading about him, he gave me some very familiar vibes. 617 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: Realized he was exciting the same st range chords in 618 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: my brain that I got from reading about John Murray 619 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: Spear and our techno religion episode. Indeed, Yeah, they have 620 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: similar time frame as similar sort of futurist visions going 621 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: on strange futurist utopia the people at the time thought 622 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: was very unsettling. Yeah, I mean, and there is a 623 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: guy who he presented a number of ideas that were 624 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: potentially unsettling to people, both in a realistic and in 625 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: a fantastic frame, but also popular to some people. Yeah, 626 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: because he was advocating change, and he advocated a utopian 627 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 1: vision for humanity. He proposed radical advancements in human culture, 628 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: advancements that would change man and his universe. So as 629 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,439 Speaker 1: humans exist at the center of Fourier's universe, elevating ourselves 630 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: to a state of harmony, uh causes the universe to 631 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: follow suit. Like we're the We're very much again the 632 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: center of this universe where the spoke on this wheel. 633 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: And if we elevate ourselves, we literally change everything else. 634 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: So along the same lines as John Murray Spear, he 635 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: didn't just have in mind making a better society, like 636 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: improving the rules that govern how humans interact, but truly 637 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: making a better human being. Yeah, better human being and 638 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: just and like just a better world that would like 639 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: literally like he proposed an age uh, in which the 640 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: polls will have warmed and been rendered fertile by a 641 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: new Aurora borealis, in which wild animal like so so 642 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: utopian is this vision? Wild antibals will will be succeeded 643 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: by their antidotes, such as anti lions and anti sharks 644 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: instead of sharks and lions. Like. That's the level of 645 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: harmony this guy was talking about. Uh. We also we 646 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: would uh, we'd grow to a height of seven feet 647 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: tall and we would live to be about a hundred 648 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: and forty four years old on average. Man, if we're 649 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: seven ft tall, the anti lions aren't gonna stand the 650 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: chance against us. I mean, they're just living amongst us. 651 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, dogs and cats living together. But 652 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: he also the anti lion will lay down with anti lamb. Yeah. Um. 653 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: But you know he also apparently thought that we might 654 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: have tales too. And this is an area that it 655 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: becomes kind of controversial in his history because his critics 656 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 1: love to focus on it. Uh. And you would see 657 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,720 Speaker 1: the political cartoons essentially in which you would see Fourier 658 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: himself with a tail, and that tail terminating and an eyeball. 659 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: It's a tail with an eyeball, Yes, Yeah, that's so 660 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: good because because that's like a D and D monster. Yeah, 661 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I guess you could look around 662 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: corners and stuff and you know they're I mean really 663 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: what just you can list a thousand uses for a 664 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: tail with an eyeball. You know, though, we we talked 665 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: in our Grizzly Bears from Outer Space episode about why 666 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: we think having an eye at the end of an 667 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: appendage is not necessarily the best idea because it's not 668 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: right next to your brain and it can become injured 669 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: by a bodily injury. Yeah, it's not a good place 670 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: to stow an eyeball. I mean unless you had, you know, 671 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: sufficient covering some sort of a sheath that goes over it. 672 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: But maybe Fourier didn't, didn't really think about that. Yeah. There, 673 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: so you see two different sizes to this. So again, 674 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: his critics are using this to say this is a ridiculous, 675 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 1: fantastic idea, this guy's a nutjob, and so at least 676 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: after eighteen forty and again that's after his death, but 677 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: but his followers are still carrying his ideas and holding 678 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: both high. Um. Around this time, his his followers began 679 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: to sort of chime in and say no, he wasn't 680 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: actually saying humans would have tales. It's a little more 681 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: complicated than that, and it it seems one of the 682 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: more you the closer you look at it, like it's 683 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: a little calm and a little calm b like he's 684 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: essentially saying humans will have tales, But it does involve 685 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: a a richer, more elaborate mythos so um according to 686 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: the book's selections from the works of Fourier. Fourier claims 687 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: that he claimed that he was referring to the extra 688 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: terrestrial solarians quote must be endowed with brilliant faculties denied 689 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: to us humans, so essentially gifts that God knew we 690 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: weren't ready for, such as an amazing tale. So these 691 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: solarians factored into four as greater metaphysics, uh, in which 692 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: so called harmoniums, which are these sort of elevated humans 693 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: who have who have come to terms with peace on 694 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,439 Speaker 1: Earth and utopian existence. Uh. They they enjoy multiple lives 695 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,280 Speaker 1: on Earth in addition to extraterrestrial lives beyond our planet, 696 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: in which they benefit from these various physical gifts. So 697 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: Fourier wrote, I have remarked that this superiority is due 698 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: principally to a member of which we are deprived, and 699 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: which comprehends the following properties protection and falling, powerful weapon, 700 00:39:54,360 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 1: splendid ornament, gigantic stream, infinite dexterity, cooperation, and support in 701 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: all the bodily motions. In discussing this problem, journalists devoid 702 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: of imagination say that the Silarians resemble the demons of 703 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: the Forest of Saint Anthony, equipped with horns, probosis, claws, 704 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: and tales, and that I wish to create men like 705 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: this upon our globe. Oh so you're putting fourier and 706 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: kind of a anton Jessop. I guess I'm kind of 707 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: following into that that bit. I mean, clearly, you know, 708 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: the man that's wild, it's wonderful, but he he makes 709 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: some good points, right, you know, we would we might 710 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: be better off if we had splendid ornament, gigantic strength, 711 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 1: powerful weapon. Well, it's it's it's interesting that he's referring 712 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: to many of the things we've discussed here in this episode. 713 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: You know, the all these strengths that the tale has 714 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: for other organisms, so why not us? And and it's 715 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's a false argument. He's makings, he's saying, 716 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: we'd be better off with these these things, these things 717 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: that we evidently did not need to to ascend to 718 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: this level of our evolution. Again, his followers tended to 719 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: downplay this. But according to Charles four A, The Visionary 720 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: and His World by Jonathan Beecher for a certainly did 721 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: right of human tales, and in these rights, and these 722 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: writings were censored, you know later on quote the harmony 723 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: in arm or arquebus is a vertebal tale, a tale 724 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: of immense length and with one d and forty four vertebrae. 725 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 1: This member is as redoubtable as it is industrious. It 726 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: is a natural weapon. The arquebus terminates with a very small, 727 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 1: elongated hand, a hand as strong as the clause of 728 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: an eagle or a crab. When a man is swimming, 729 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: the arquebus will help him move as fast as a fish. 730 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: It can stretch to the bottom of the water, carrying 731 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: fish nets and making them fast. With its help, a 732 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 1: man can reach a branch twelve feet high, climb up 733 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: and down the tree, pick fruit at the very top 734 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,479 Speaker 1: of the tree, and put it in a basket tied 735 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 1: to the archamen. It serves as a whip and a 736 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: rain to a man who is driving a horse drawn plow. 737 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: It can be used to tame a wild horse. The 738 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: writer can tie up the horse's legs with his arcabus. 739 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,320 Speaker 1: It is infinitely useful, and in the playing of musical 740 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: instruments it doubles a person's manual faculties since its fingers, 741 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: although very small, are extremely stretchable. Hey, we were talking 742 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: about that earlier, were playing music. This guy was was 743 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: ahead of ahead of us, anticipated like every single thing 744 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: we said in this episode. But yeah, so he's talking 745 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: about a prehensile tale that can can do all of 746 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: the things we would expect in an arm or a limb, 747 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: except it's even better. Yeah, and we would use it 748 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: to do all these utopian things like climbing trees and 749 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: being a wild horse, which seems kind of counter to 750 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: the whole harmonium thing, right. I think it's kind of 751 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: funny that one of the advantages he lists is that 752 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: it can stretch to the bottom of the water carrying 753 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: fish nets. Yeah. I don't know. I guess, you know, 754 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of different time, I guess. Yeah. Again, I 755 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: guess it's kind of like an in turn return to 756 00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: Eden sort of vibe at this ride is that we 757 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: would in a sense, we would be we would we 758 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: were returning to our like pre aphe existence, only with 759 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: presumably a utopian human intellect. Wait, hold on, so did 760 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: for you have an idea about why humans did not 761 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: have this amazing archibras already? I believe it's because we've 762 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: sucked because and and again, people who are more familiar 763 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: with for As work can can write in and uh 764 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,320 Speaker 1: and flesh this out force a bit. But my understanding, 765 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: based on the sources I was looking at, is that 766 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: it's essentially humans have a dystopian existence and therefore have 767 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: are not are not privy to these gifts because these 768 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: gifts would be squandered on war and violence and all. 769 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: And it's only if we true might have a tail, 770 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: I would only use it for war. You would you 771 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,280 Speaker 1: just go and like pick our fights and just start 772 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: tail flapping fools left and right. It's the it's the 773 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: xenomorph tail again, it is. Yeah, So yeah, if humans 774 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: had tales, they would essentially be xenomorphs. And we see that, 775 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:00,879 Speaker 1: I mean a little look at all. You know all 776 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,399 Speaker 1: of our fictional creatures that have tales, they're often using 777 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: miss weapons. Anyway, that's that's our fantasy, that's our dystopian fantasy. 778 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 1: For for tale usage, Fourier thought differently, though he saw 779 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: the utopian dream here. I can respect that, you know. 780 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,720 Speaker 1: It also brings to mind the two thousand nine novel 781 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,240 Speaker 1: The Sacred Book of the Werewolf, a novel by Russian 782 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: author Victor Pelvin. Are you familiar with this work? No, 783 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: not at all. It's an interesting book. It's um. It 784 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: sounds like it's gonna be sort of a you know, 785 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: underworld that it's actually a very very literate little work 786 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: that speaks to the to to the heart of sort 787 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: of the Russian soul at the time. Now, wait a minute, 788 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: this isn't related to that to that werewolf spy novel 789 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: you found at the beach that you were telling you. No, no, no, 790 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: that's that's a different that's a far treasure um book. 791 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: This one. This one has more of a literal area slant, 792 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: but it does at the heart concern a love story 793 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: between a an x KGB werewolf and a and a 794 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: two thousand year old ware fox um and the ware 795 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 1: Fox in particular, she's capable of greater yogur powers since 796 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: she has additional chakras in her tail. Chakras are, of course, 797 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,839 Speaker 1: are those energy points in uh in Eastern metaphysics. Um, 798 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: you know that that go up and down your vertebra. 799 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: So if you had more vertebra you would have more chakras. 800 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 1: So like a very long snake would have tons of chakras. 801 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: I guess, so yeah, yeah, and you know by that respect, 802 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: you know many of the animals here. What would what 803 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,760 Speaker 1: would do I mean, even though a scorpion doesn't have vertebrae, 804 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: what would it chakras be like? I don't know if 805 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: it were. It's of course that a scorpion is a 806 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: very uh, non yogic creature. It's a very uh, it's 807 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,879 Speaker 1: a very self centered and spiteful organism. So I can't 808 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,880 Speaker 1: imagine it engaging in a lot of meditation. Okay, So 809 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: to finally revisit the question one more time, will humans 810 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 1: ever evolve tales again? Will we get them back? My 811 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: feeling is, if I'm gonna stop messing around and say 812 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 1: what I really think, I don't don't really think so, 813 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,919 Speaker 1: because why would that happen. It seems like they would 814 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: either have to be a selection pressure in favor of it, 815 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 1: like that people who had them would be more likely 816 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: to have more children. I don't see why that would 817 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: be given our level of technology and our you know, 818 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,800 Speaker 1: civilized technological existence. It just doesn't seem like the strong 819 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: you know, survival or reproduction preference for a tale would 820 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: re emerge. But maybe we could get them back just 821 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: through genetic engineering. Yeah, if we just really wanted them 822 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: bad enough, then we could genetically engineer the more. Potentially, 823 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: I don't know why we'd want that surgically augment ourselves 824 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: to create tales. But but even then, that's yeah, the 825 00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: genetic would be the only way that we would be 826 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: alteringing the species as opposed to individual members of that species. 827 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: And as we discussed, it's been so long since apes 828 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: lost that tale, you know, twenty million years. By the 829 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 1: time something post human evolved a tail like that would 830 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 1: not be a human anymore. That would not be Homo sapiens. 831 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: That would be something else. That's a great point. So 832 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: there's that. But we'd love to hear from everyone else, 833 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,879 Speaker 1: what what do you think will humans ever develop a tail? 834 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: Wherever evolve a tail? And to go back to the 835 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: question at the very beginning of this, uh, this two 836 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: parter would you choose wings or would you choose a tail? 837 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 1: Which one would you acquire and why would you use it? 838 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,600 Speaker 1: I would probably say neither. Neither. Neither wasn't a choice 839 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,800 Speaker 1: to chase wings and tail. Well, then I'll go with 840 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,399 Speaker 1: the xenomorph tail because you never know when you're gonna 841 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: need it. You never know, all right, So there you 842 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 1: have it, uh tales. You know, if you didn't listen 843 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,359 Speaker 1: to that first the first part of this, go back 844 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 1: and listen to it. There are a lot of great 845 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 1: tale uh examples in that episode as well, and you 846 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: can find all the episodes of the podcast that Stuff 847 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com that is the mothership. 848 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,400 Speaker 1: You'll also find blog post videos, links out to our 849 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,280 Speaker 1: various social media accounts such as Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler. 850 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,279 Speaker 1: And if you'd like to let us know whether you'd 851 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: rather have wings or a tail given all of the 852 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: qualifications we offered at the beginning of the first episode, 853 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: or if you'd like to let us know an interesting 854 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: tail fact or give us feedback on any of the 855 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,840 Speaker 1: stuff we talked about in this episode, you can email 856 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: us at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot 857 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics, 858 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: does it, how stuff works, dot com