WEBVTT - Volcanoes of Life 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to stuct to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.240 Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.520 Your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.319 And today we're gonna be talking about something that that 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:22.600 I've been thinking about doing an episode on for a while, 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.759 ever since I read an article a while back that 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:29.120 really interested me. And that is the surprising and kind 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:34.160 of counterintuitive link that has been proposed by many geologists 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.680 now between life as we know it on Earth and 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.839 the fires of mountain doom, specifically the most violent and 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:48.000 scary of geologic processes like volcanic eruptions on the movement 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:50.839 of tectonic plates. Yeah, this is a great topic to 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:53.880 get into. We kind of had a I guess a 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.720 preamble to this's a couple episodes ago when we were 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.640 talking about eggs and we talked about the volcano birds 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.320 and the idea of a volcano being a seeming, you know, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.760 almost paradoxically to be something that can nourish life as 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.520 opposed to something that's just a purely destructive force. Oh. 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:12.759 I didn't think about that comparison at all, but yeah, 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.560 the way that the volcanic sand baby sits the egg 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:18.760 for the for the megapode, so that it can just 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.600 run off and do its own thing, raised by a 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.280 volcano um. But so I thought a great place to 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:29.919 start here might be with a brief reading from the Voluspa. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.240 It is a famous old Norse epic poem from the 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.160 collection that is known as the Poetic Edda. Now this 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.119 is a this an anonymous work. The author is unknown, 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.240 But the Voluspa tells the story of the Norse gods 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.600 culminating in their destruction in the fiery doom of Ragnarok. 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.720 And I'm just going to read a couple of quatrains here. 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.240 In anger smites the warder of the Earth forth from 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:00.280 their homes. Must all men flee nine paces fair Air's 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.720 the son of Jorgan, and slain by the serpent Fearless, 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.880 he sinks, The sun turns black, Earth sinks in the sea, 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.240 the hot stars down from heaven our world fierce grows 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.239 the steam and the life feeding flame, until fire leaps 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:22.200 high about Heaven itself. And one fun thing about this poem, 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:24.640 it's a bit of Tolkien trivia. Robert, tell me if 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.280 you've heard this before. But the name of the wizard 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.679 Gandalf that first appeared in in Tolkien's The Hobbit, and 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.880 then of course is like the best character and Lord 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.880 of the Rings. The name of Gandalf comes from the Voluspa. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.520 Tolkien actually borrowed the name from a section known as 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.400 the Tally of the Dwarves from this epic poem. Originally, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.200 he was going to apply it to the character in 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.160 The Hobbit who became thorn oaken Shield, the leader of 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.120 the Dwarf party, but then he decided later on that 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.480 it made more sense to apply the name of Gandalf 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.520 to the wizard, I think because Gandalf means something like 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.760 magic staff elf, and I think he made the right choice, 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.480 like Gandalf that makes more sense for the wizard than 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:09.320 for Thorin. But a cool thing that happens in this poem, 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.000 it's sort of part of the Ragnarok myth, is that 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:16.120 there is a rebirth that follows this fiery doom. You know, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.600 after the fire leaps high to heaven and the Kingdom 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.919 of the Gods is destroyed, Earth is not just left 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.239 in cinders. Instead, there is a renewal from the fire, 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.720 and the author rights, now do I see the Earth 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.160 a new rise, all green from the waves again, the 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:36.200 cataracts fall, and the eagle flies and fish he catches 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.880 beneath the cliffs. So there's this great link between fiery 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.040 cataclysm and rebirth and renewal of life in Norse mythology, 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.840 and and of course there you know, these are symbolic elements. 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.000 I'm not suggesting that they had some kind of scientific 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.440 insight with this. It's it's just something you know that 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.800 I think is taken as a metaphor largely about human 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.040 life itself, but coincidentally it ends up kind of ringing 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.840 true with things we're finding out about geology and nature. Well, 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.320 it's something you've see in a lot of different mythological cycles, right, 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.280 I mean you see it in in in in Hindu mythology, 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:15.640 you see it in uh various um American mythologies. Uh 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.680 you know, thinking about Mezso and South America in particular, 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.719 is this idea that things will rise, things will fall, Uh, 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.720 that there will be cataclysm, that whole world will be destroyed, 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.000 but new worlds will rise out of them and have 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.920 risen out of them before. Yeah, I was thinking about 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.560 themes of fiery eruption and the greening of the Earth 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.039 together or sort of a creator destroyer duality. One that 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.440 came to my mind that that I thought you might 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.160 know something about, because I know I've heard you talk 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.240 about Hawaiian mythology before. Was the pale myth Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.200 the Hawaiian goddess Pale is an interesting example a deity 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.560 of fire and volcanism. I was reading a book titled 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:01.599 Pale Volcano Goddess of Hawaii by H. R. Low Nemo, 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.719 and he points out that when Polynesian voyagers first arrived 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.240 in Hawaii, they would have brought their gods with them. Now, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.680 now we don't know where in the Hawaiian islands. This 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.120 would have specifically been which of the islands they would 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.640 have landed on, and where and even when remains a 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.400 topic of debate. I've seen dates ranging from three hundred 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.680 seed to a thousand sea, and of course contact with 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.160 the Europeans didn't occur until seventeen seventy eight. But the 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.240 newcomers would have arrived on sailing technology in keeping with 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.200 that of the larger Polynesian expansion, as well as related 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.719 cultural inventions such as gods and goddesses, all of which 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:45.080 would then evolve into distinctly Hawaiian models afterwards. Now, as 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.479 we discussed in the show before, the Polynesians were some 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.800 of the last true explorers of the inhuman regions of 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.159 the Earth, and their saga, which is full of fascinating history, 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.279 is is it's not unlike what we might expect of 0:05:56.279 --> 0:06:00.760 a space faring civilization with time and space sufficient enough 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.160 to see the splintering and continued evolution of societies from 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:08.159 region to region as they spread out across these far 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.160 flung habitable spaces. Now, Nemo points out that the first 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:16.920 Hawaiians brought with them kane kind of lowa uh Ku loan, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:21.200 no gods known throughout the South Pacific. But they also 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.640 brought with them what was apparently a minor fire deity 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.159 named Pelee. And they didn't bring any volcano deities with them, 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.200 but but she was this fire deity that seemed to 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.760 pre exist, and she likely remained insignificant for a while there, 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.080 at first, just another minor deity like she was previously. 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:43.000 But then eventually uh though the Hawaiian islands shook and 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.640 the volcanic mountains, of which six are active today belch 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.719 forth fire, magma, and ash, and this is what Nemo writes, quote, 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.200 this minor deity was apparently transferred to the volcanoes and 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.919 became the goddess Pele, who was destined to hold a 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.200 powerful position in the Hawaiian antheon. The great volcanoes became 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:06.000 her home, their power, her strength, their beauty and destruction, 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:11.080 her manifestation, and their unpredictability, her temperament. Now, Paley would 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.160 not be the only god or goddess from a pantheon 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.160 in the world that's associated with with specific volcanic activity. 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:23.320 But I would imagine that that a volcano god takes 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.960 on a very special significance when you are an island culture, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.800 So when you're like geographically bound very close amidst a 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:36.520 vast ocean to that that ground forming and life giving volcano. Yeah. 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.000 Something to think about here is that we we see 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.720 other gods, particularly um gods in the Greek and Roman 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.760 cycle that are associated with with fire and also associated 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.400 with volcanoes, but also associated with the forge, the forging 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.560 of things. Um. We also see this in Lord of 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.360 the Rings with with sarin Is. This is essentially a 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:02.280 he Festus type character, right, But as we discussed previously 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.520 on the show, in one of our armor episodes. Um, 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.120 you certainly don't see metal work uh, occurring on the 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.160 Hawaiian islands. I mean, you don't see see iron. Therefore, 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.440 the taking in the manipulation, they were using wood and 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.320 fiber and shark tooth based technology and doing and using 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.760 so excellently. But I wonder how much of it too 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:25.600 has to do with the fact that that Pale would 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.640 have been removed from that there would have been no 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.920 human forge to overshadow the natural cycles of fire in 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:34.880 the earth, you know. And on top of that, here 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.800 is the volcano itself, Here are the volcanoes and these 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:43.080 volcanic islands, where where it's it's activity, it's it's it's 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:47.920 geologic life is so obvious. Now. Nemo spends much of 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.880 this book discussing the ways that Paley is viewed, and 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.920 certainly drives home that that she's not a monolith. Traditions 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.760 and ideas regarding Pale range from religious belief and cultural 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:02.320 identity to the abstract, the environmental, and even uh. There 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.440 are these, um numerous examples of supernatural sightings in which 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.520 one claims to have seen or believes to have seen 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.920 a beautiful woman standing in the fire. But there certainly 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.800 is this recurring theme of one who creates with volcanic 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.240 fire and may also take back via the same power 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:25.000 um of a quote traditional spiritual respect for the life 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:29.079 forms her creation supports. For instance, in the book, Nemo 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.200 does bring up a specific example, uh talking with someone 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.200 who lost uh some property due to a volcanic eruption, 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.280 and they asked him, well, what, how did this change 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.200 the way you think about Pelee? And they say, well, 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.360 I do, it doesn't. Pelee gave this to me. She 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.680 created the land and I was just using it, and 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.480 now she has taken it back. Yeah. The Lord giveth 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.680 and the Lord taketh away. Yeah. Now the lord that 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.320 people are usually talking about when they when they say 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.800 that is the is the the god of of of 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.840 Judeo Christian tradition, right, Uh, which brings up this question. Joe, 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.640 you're more of an Old Testament kind of guy than 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.320 I am. But so have you ever run across this 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.920 argument that yahweh uh in Hebraic tradition may have started 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.840 off as a volcano god. Yeah, I was reading a 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.160 bit about this. Um. This seems like one of those 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.320 things that you it's kind of an interesting idea. You 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:26.520 can't totally rule it out, but it seems highly speculative 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.839 and based on kind of scanty evidence, So so I 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.280 would say it's one of those things that is possible, 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.080 but probably not. I think it's mainly based on ideas 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.680 about geography, like the idea that you know that Sinai 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.480 Mount Sinai would have had some kind of volcanic element 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.120 in the past, and then referring to specific passages in 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:51.280 the Bible which described the Lord in terms that people say, well, 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.640 maybe this could be describing a volcanic eruption or something, 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:56.640 and it's one of those things that you can often 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.640 do with these geomethology. This actually, I guess would technically 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.560 geomethology a geomethology inference, and so I'd say for this one, 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.120 you know, it's not impossible, but it's kind of a reach. Yeah, 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.920 I don't think i'd I'd run across it myself, but 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.760 I saw mention of it, and one of the sources 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.160 that was often there were often was often cited here 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.920 was a book by Jack Miles title of God Biography, 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.599 which is a popular work that seems to discuss this. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:26.640 So I looked it up and it's in reference to 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:32.079 Exodus forty eight. Uh, he writes, quote, nothing in nature 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.400 looks like a cloud by day and a fire by night, 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.720 except a volcano. The depth of the Lord God's compelling 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.360 but contradictory power is well evoked by the extraordinary image 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:46.440 of a volcano brought into a tent. Now speaking of 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.680 volcanoes and gods and getting back to to Tolkien. Uh. Now, 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:52.960 I've expressed in the show before that I love a 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.960 good journal paper that that digs into some Tolkien that 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.040 tries to find the science of Middle Earth. We've talked 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.839 about that previously with the Hobbit, you know, the how 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.640 many meals does the Hobbit need a day? And Willy'll 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.280 be able to march across the Earth? Uh. Also we 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.600 got into the metallurgy of the One Ring. So I 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.160 was like, well, somebody, somebody has to have considered Mount 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.280 doom and um and you know, the geology of Middle Earth. 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.239 And sure enough I found a paper titled the Geology 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.440 of Middle Earth by William Anthony Swinton Sergeant, published in 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.640 the journal myth Lore in NI. Now, I know myth 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:35.320 Lore doesn't have a resounding ring of geologic authority to it, 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.320 but I looked up a Sergeant who lived five through 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.960 two thousand two, and he was a professor of geology 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.320 at the University of Saskatchewan. And he also apparently wrote 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.720 a series of fantasy novels himself, The Perilous Quest for 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.480 lion S. I looked it up. I have not read it, 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.360 but I've noticed you can get at least the first 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.720 two books in the trilogy on kindle and paperbacks. Amazing. Okay, 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.079 so he's the perfect person to right this, a fantasy 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.480 novelist and and clear geek who was also a professor 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.960 of geology. Yeah. Yeah, and uh he wasn't the first though, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.439 so he when when he dives into this, he ends 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.880 up citing an earlier paper by Robert C. Reynolds titled 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.520 the geo Morphology of Middle Earth, which is published in 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.440 The Swansea Geographer in nineteen seventy four. So basically, what 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.520 Reynolds had done is he'd applied the concept of plate 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.760 tectonics to the entire geography of Middle Earth, recognizing four 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:33.360 different plates, the Erador played in the west, the Rovanian 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.120 played in the north, and the Harad and more door 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.400 plates in the south. And Sergeant then used this as 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.800 his starting point kind of his bedrock, but updated it 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.280 to reflect changes in plate tectonic theory between nineteen seventy 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:50.600 four in nine. Oh. Yeah, that's interesting because I would 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.959 say at the time the Hobbit was written, plate tectonics 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.199 was not yet an accepted scientific theory. Yeah. Yeah, it's 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.400 easy to to overlook that, especially for those of us 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:01.080 who who have grown up in the wake of that 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.079 and you know, just encountered in our science books at 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.439 a very early age. Yeah. It's one of those things 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.800 that just feels like people must have known this for 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.959 hundreds of years. But yeah, the widespread acceptance of plate 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.200 tectonics is fairly recent. Here's a quote from from that 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.600 paper by Sergeant quote. Mount Doom is indeed one of 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.440 four isolated volcanoes, each representing a hotspot at some distance 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.520 from a plate margin, and all of them associated with 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:30.440 evil doing dhal gouldar in Mirkwood or Thonk in Eisenard, 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.080 and Arab or the Lonely Mountain. So he contended that 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:39.280 Eisenard was a volcanic crater with central Orthanic itself carved 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.840 via technology and magic from a column of solidified lava 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.880 thrust up from the vent in its last eruption. The 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.560 Lonely Mountain, which is ever shrouded in gray and silent clouds, 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.560 is another, and he argues that Smog's chamber is just 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.600 a reshaped lava tube. But Mount Doom the underlines is 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.320 the only volcano that seems to be truly active in 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.000 the time of the Elbow and Frodo, and the only 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.480 recorded seismic events in the books occur first when Gandalf 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.560 cast down the ball Rog and then when Gallum falls 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.640 into the fires of Mountain Doom with the one ring. 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.800 Uh So, Ultimately, he's as for a world in which 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.800 all the major events are revolving around activities at a 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.840 single active volcano, Middle Earth is is rather seismically calm, 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.960 while still being quote geologically like our own world. Well, 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.760 I gotta say, I do not know what natural processes 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.640 could create that perfect rectangle of mountains around more door. 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.640 That seems impossible to me. I always looked at that 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.200 map and said, ah, that's just that doesn't look like 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.200 real Earth. You've gotta make the outline a little more jagged. 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.960 I understand, surrounded by mountains, but come on, look at 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.400 those corners. Uh. This is one of the things I 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.720 really liked about about our Scott Baker's work where he 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.320 his fantasy work takes place in this world of the 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.760 Three Seas that is very much Middle or Earth that's 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.240 been you know, transformed via these various philosophical ideas and 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.200 a lot of you know, the Crusades interjected in there 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:08.760 and some other influences. But there is a more door 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.880 like location in the books with a central fortress and 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.960 then mountains surrounding it. But in in his books, this 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.520 is essentially an impact crater created by this thing from 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.120 space or beyond that has come to the Earth, and 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.400 that is the central uh fortress in the middle of 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.800 this uh, this this vast crater, and so the mountains 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.520 encircling it are those that were cast up by that 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.680 impact A plus very plausible. I like it. So anyway, 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.680 there's there's some just additional token to just really kick 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.680 things off here. But um, again, I would say that 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.960 that saron and certainly is getting more connected to those 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.400 those gods such as have Hestas, uh Adronus and Volcanos. Uh. 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.080 They are all smiths in the human sense, all creators 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.600 through technology rather than through the nature. That seems to 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.800 be their key metaphor here. The volcano. Well to bring 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.000 it back into the real world and look at this 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.280 duality of you know, the same entity that might be 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:11.000 both responsible for the creating sustaining of life, but then 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:16.439 also fiery destruction and and explosive calamity. I want to 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.520 start by asking a question that we talked about on 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.440 the show a good bit, and that question is, when 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:23.960 you're looking at other planets, you stare out of the 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.679 night sky and and you're trying to find examples of 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.320 other planets that might be able to sustain life, what 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.600 are the conditions you would check for. I think the 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.680 most obvious is liquid water, right absolutely. I mean water 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.840 is the thing that, uh, more than just about anything 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.480 else we just can't remove from the equation and get 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:45.560 to life as we know it. Yeah, and that's one 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:47.800 of the things we talked about when we discussed Brian 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.520 Green's book The Until the End of Time. He has 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:54.040 this great section where he connects the chemical properties of 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.679 water to its role in the evolution of life. You know, 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:02.080 the great power of water as this polar molecule and 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.560 as a solvent, as a sort of three dimensional canvas 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.320 for the drafting of the structure of cells, allowing for 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.119 energy to be processed and harnessed for replication. Uh. And 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.920 of course all of these virtues depend on water being 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.600 in its liquid state. Water and it's frozen or vapor 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.919 state is not really useful for the evolution of life. 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.880 But in addition to just looking for the direct presence 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.679 of liquid water, there are other conditions you might be 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.040 able to look for that could, at least in theory, 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.679 make a planet more hospitable to the origin, evolution and 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.840 maintenance of life, at least in theory, And you might 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:42.400 not expect it, but volcanic eruptions and the plate tectonics 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.960 that volcanic eruptions might signal are another one of those conditions. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.120 So maybe we should take a break and then talk 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:53.720 about that when we get back. Than alright, we're back. 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.080 So the idea we're discussing here is the idea that 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.879 that the that just as pale is not merely at 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:03.320 a stroyer, but is also a creator volcanoes and the 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.880 underlying plate tectonics that they represent might also be key 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.359 to life. Yeah, and so I want to talk about 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.920 an article that I was reading by a researcher named 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.680 Craig O'Neill. So O'Neill is a director of the mcquarie 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:20.320 Planetary Research Center, and he's an associate professor of geodynamics 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:25.200 at mcquarie University, and he's done some direct research on 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:29.560 on simulating the evolution of heating models, and you know, 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:34.600 he thermodynamics within planets or geodynamics, And so he starts 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:36.240 off by talking about how that you know, there are 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.399 two things that make Earth unique in the Solar System. 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.119 You might think, because of the conversation we were just 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.520 having a minute ago, that one of them is liquid water, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.439 but actually no, there are other objects in the Solar 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.560 System that have liquid water. Sometimes people bring up the 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.400 example of Mars. I think that's still an open question. 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:58.200 Of course, Mars doesn't have lakes or rivers. There's some 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:02.159 indication that it may have transient liquid water here and 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.840 there on occasion, such as in these features called recurring 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.320 slope lineer though, I think I was reading a report 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.840 that there is spectral analysis that has disputed the interpretation 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.520 of these sort of dark spots that appear on slopes 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.359 as as actual water. I guess we don't know for 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.800 sure what they are, but um, there are other examples 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.919 that are more straightforward, like it is totally scientific consensus 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.560 at this point that Jupiter's moon Europa has liquid water 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.040 under its icy surface. It's got the shell of ice 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.480 on the outside. Underneath that, it's got some motions. They're 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.040 sloshing around, they're having a good time. Who knows what's 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.959 happening there. But there is also possibly subsurface water on 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:45.760 Ganymede and on Enceladus. So the two features that O'Neill 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.480 singles out that actually make Earth unique within the Solar 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:53.919 System are that Earth has plate tectonics and that Earth 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.879 has life. And the question that he's raising is whether 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.880 these two unique features are actually causally related. If it's 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.840 not a coincidence that Earth's crust breaks apart into plates 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.199 that shift around and move over its surface, that float 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.919 on top of the mantle, uh, that sort of spread 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.320 apart in in some places and then subduct and move 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.480 down and get sucked back into the mantle and other places. 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:25.320 Does that process contribute to the creation and sustaining of life. Yeah, 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.040 this is an interesting idea because it basically comes down 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:32.720 to the question of of whether a geologically active planet 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.440 is necessary for life, like if there's something there's something 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.800 in this Uh, this continued geological life that makes biological 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.760 life more possible, right, And I guess there are ways 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.320 that a planet could be geologically active but not have 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:47.800 plate tectonics. Like I'm going to get to this in 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:50.320 more detail and a bit, but there are models of 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.400 planets where there are not plates on the surface, where 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:57.440 the surface is basically just one single spherical hard crust 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.480 sitting on top of the mantle, but it can still 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.919 have volcanic eruptions that could in some ways regulate the 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.000 heating of the planet and control its atmosphere in a 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:10.600 way that that could sustain life according to some researchers. 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:12.680 But but we'll get in more detail about that in 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:16.280 a minute. So we know that one of the prerequisites 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.800 for the evolution and survival of life as we know 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:23.520 it is liquid water. But why is it that Earth 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:28.879 has maintained the conditions necessary for liquid water basically the 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.920 entire time it's existed. Ever since we've had liquid water, 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.200 there has been the ability for water to stay liquid. 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.160 It's been long enough to allow life to continue evolving 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:41.239 the entire time Earth has existed. So how is it 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.200 possible that Earth has been able to maintain these habitable 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:49.880 conditions in an almost adaptive and almost kind of accommodating 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:54.439 kind of way, right like, especially since the external conditions 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.040 have changed, like the Sun has grown thirty percent brighter 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.600 over the same period of time, so the heat inputs 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.920 on Earth have gotten much greater, and yet still the 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.040 the atmospheric climate of Earth has stayed relatively stable. And 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.639 O'Neill offers the answer that what's going on here to 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.919 keep Earth relatively stable is it's is the profile of 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:22.080 its geological activity. Primarily it's plate tectonics. So first of all, 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:25.240