1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuct to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: And today we're gonna be talking about something that that 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about doing an episode on for a while, 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: ever since I read an article a while back that 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: really interested me. And that is the surprising and kind 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: of counterintuitive link that has been proposed by many geologists 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: now between life as we know it on Earth and 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: the fires of mountain doom, specifically the most violent and 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: scary of geologic processes like volcanic eruptions on the movement 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: of tectonic plates. Yeah, this is a great topic to 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: get into. We kind of had a I guess a 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: preamble to this's a couple episodes ago when we were 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: talking about eggs and we talked about the volcano birds 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: and the idea of a volcano being a seeming, you know, 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: almost paradoxically to be something that can nourish life as 18 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: opposed to something that's just a purely destructive force. Oh. 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: I didn't think about that comparison at all, but yeah, 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: the way that the volcanic sand baby sits the egg 21 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: for the for the megapode, so that it can just 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: run off and do its own thing, raised by a 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: volcano um. But so I thought a great place to 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,919 Speaker 1: start here might be with a brief reading from the Voluspa. 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: It is a famous old Norse epic poem from the 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: collection that is known as the Poetic Edda. Now this 27 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: is a this an anonymous work. The author is unknown, 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: But the Voluspa tells the story of the Norse gods 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: culminating in their destruction in the fiery doom of Ragnarok. 30 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: And I'm just going to read a couple of quatrains here. 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: In anger smites the warder of the Earth forth from 32 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: their homes. Must all men flee nine paces fair Air's 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: the son of Jorgan, and slain by the serpent Fearless, 34 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: he sinks, The sun turns black, Earth sinks in the sea, 35 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: the hot stars down from heaven our world fierce grows 36 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: the steam and the life feeding flame, until fire leaps 37 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: high about Heaven itself. And one fun thing about this poem, 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: it's a bit of Tolkien trivia. Robert, tell me if 39 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: you've heard this before. But the name of the wizard 40 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: Gandalf that first appeared in in Tolkien's The Hobbit, and 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: then of course is like the best character and Lord 42 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: of the Rings. The name of Gandalf comes from the Voluspa. 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: Tolkien actually borrowed the name from a section known as 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: the Tally of the Dwarves from this epic poem. Originally, 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: he was going to apply it to the character in 46 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: The Hobbit who became thorn oaken Shield, the leader of 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: the Dwarf party, but then he decided later on that 48 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: it made more sense to apply the name of Gandalf 49 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: to the wizard, I think because Gandalf means something like 50 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: magic staff elf, and I think he made the right choice, 51 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: like Gandalf that makes more sense for the wizard than 52 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: for Thorin. But a cool thing that happens in this poem, 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: it's sort of part of the Ragnarok myth, is that 54 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: there is a rebirth that follows this fiery doom. You know, 55 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: after the fire leaps high to heaven and the Kingdom 56 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: of the Gods is destroyed, Earth is not just left 57 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: in cinders. Instead, there is a renewal from the fire, 58 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: and the author rights, now do I see the Earth 59 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: a new rise, all green from the waves again, the 60 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: cataracts fall, and the eagle flies and fish he catches 61 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: beneath the cliffs. So there's this great link between fiery 62 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: cataclysm and rebirth and renewal of life in Norse mythology, 63 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: and and of course there you know, these are symbolic elements. 64 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that they had some kind of scientific 65 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: insight with this. It's it's just something you know that 66 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: I think is taken as a metaphor largely about human 67 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: life itself, but coincidentally it ends up kind of ringing 68 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: true with things we're finding out about geology and nature. Well, 69 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: it's something you've see in a lot of different mythological cycles, right, 70 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: I mean you see it in in in in Hindu mythology, 71 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: you see it in uh various um American mythologies. Uh 72 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about Mezso and South America in particular, 73 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: is this idea that things will rise, things will fall, Uh, 74 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: that there will be cataclysm, that whole world will be destroyed, 75 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: but new worlds will rise out of them and have 76 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: risen out of them before. Yeah, I was thinking about 77 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: themes of fiery eruption and the greening of the Earth 78 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: together or sort of a creator destroyer duality. One that 79 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: came to my mind that that I thought you might 80 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: know something about, because I know I've heard you talk 81 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: about Hawaiian mythology before. Was the pale myth Yeah. Yeah, 82 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: the Hawaiian goddess Pale is an interesting example a deity 83 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: of fire and volcanism. I was reading a book titled 84 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: Pale Volcano Goddess of Hawaii by H. R. Low Nemo, 85 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: and he points out that when Polynesian voyagers first arrived 86 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: in Hawaii, they would have brought their gods with them. Now, 87 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: now we don't know where in the Hawaiian islands. This 88 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: would have specifically been which of the islands they would 89 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: have landed on, and where and even when remains a 90 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: topic of debate. I've seen dates ranging from three hundred 91 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: seed to a thousand sea, and of course contact with 92 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: the Europeans didn't occur until seventeen seventy eight. But the 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: newcomers would have arrived on sailing technology in keeping with 94 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: that of the larger Polynesian expansion, as well as related 95 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: cultural inventions such as gods and goddesses, all of which 96 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: would then evolve into distinctly Hawaiian models afterwards. Now, as 97 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: we discussed in the show before, the Polynesians were some 98 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: of the last true explorers of the inhuman regions of 99 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: the Earth, and their saga, which is full of fascinating history, 100 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: is is it's not unlike what we might expect of 101 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: a space faring civilization with time and space sufficient enough 102 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: to see the splintering and continued evolution of societies from 103 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: region to region as they spread out across these far 104 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: flung habitable spaces. Now, Nemo points out that the first 105 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: Hawaiians brought with them kane kind of lowa uh Ku loan, 106 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: no gods known throughout the South Pacific. But they also 107 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: brought with them what was apparently a minor fire deity 108 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: named Pelee. And they didn't bring any volcano deities with them, 109 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: but but she was this fire deity that seemed to 110 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: pre exist, and she likely remained insignificant for a while there, 111 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: at first, just another minor deity like she was previously. 112 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: But then eventually uh though the Hawaiian islands shook and 113 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: the volcanic mountains, of which six are active today belch 114 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: forth fire, magma, and ash, and this is what Nemo writes, quote, 115 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: this minor deity was apparently transferred to the volcanoes and 116 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: became the goddess Pele, who was destined to hold a 117 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: powerful position in the Hawaiian antheon. The great volcanoes became 118 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: her home, their power, her strength, their beauty and destruction, 119 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: her manifestation, and their unpredictability, her temperament. Now, Paley would 120 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: not be the only god or goddess from a pantheon 121 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: in the world that's associated with with specific volcanic activity. 122 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: But I would imagine that that a volcano god takes 123 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: on a very special significance when you are an island culture, 124 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: So when you're like geographically bound very close amidst a 125 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: vast ocean to that that ground forming and life giving volcano. Yeah. 126 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: Something to think about here is that we we see 127 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: other gods, particularly um gods in the Greek and Roman 128 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: cycle that are associated with with fire and also associated 129 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: with volcanoes, but also associated with the forge, the forging 130 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: of things. Um. We also see this in Lord of 131 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: the Rings with with sarin Is. This is essentially a 132 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: he Festus type character, right, But as we discussed previously 133 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: on the show, in one of our armor episodes. Um, 134 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: you certainly don't see metal work uh, occurring on the 135 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: Hawaiian islands. I mean, you don't see see iron. Therefore, 136 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: the taking in the manipulation, they were using wood and 137 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: fiber and shark tooth based technology and doing and using 138 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: so excellently. But I wonder how much of it too 139 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that that Pale would 140 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: have been removed from that there would have been no 141 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: human forge to overshadow the natural cycles of fire in 142 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: the earth, you know. And on top of that, here 143 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: is the volcano itself, Here are the volcanoes and these 144 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: volcanic islands, where where it's it's activity, it's it's it's 145 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: geologic life is so obvious. Now. Nemo spends much of 146 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: this book discussing the ways that Paley is viewed, and 147 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: certainly drives home that that she's not a monolith. Traditions 148 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: and ideas regarding Pale range from religious belief and cultural 149 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: identity to the abstract, the environmental, and even uh. There 150 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: are these, um numerous examples of supernatural sightings in which 151 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: one claims to have seen or believes to have seen 152 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: a beautiful woman standing in the fire. But there certainly 153 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: is this recurring theme of one who creates with volcanic 154 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: fire and may also take back via the same power 155 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: um of a quote traditional spiritual respect for the life 156 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: forms her creation supports. For instance, in the book, Nemo 157 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: does bring up a specific example, uh talking with someone 158 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: who lost uh some property due to a volcanic eruption, 159 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: and they asked him, well, what, how did this change 160 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: the way you think about Pelee? And they say, well, 161 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: I do, it doesn't. Pelee gave this to me. She 162 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: created the land and I was just using it, and 163 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: now she has taken it back. Yeah. The Lord giveth 164 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: and the Lord taketh away. Yeah. Now the lord that 165 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: people are usually talking about when they when they say 166 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: that is the is the the god of of of 167 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: Judeo Christian tradition, right, Uh, which brings up this question. Joe, 168 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: you're more of an Old Testament kind of guy than 169 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: I am. But so have you ever run across this 170 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: argument that yahweh uh in Hebraic tradition may have started 171 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: off as a volcano god. Yeah, I was reading a 172 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: bit about this. Um. This seems like one of those 173 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: things that you it's kind of an interesting idea. You 174 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: can't totally rule it out, but it seems highly speculative 175 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: and based on kind of scanty evidence, So so I 176 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: would say it's one of those things that is possible, 177 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: but probably not. I think it's mainly based on ideas 178 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: about geography, like the idea that you know that Sinai 179 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: Mount Sinai would have had some kind of volcanic element 180 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: in the past, and then referring to specific passages in 181 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: the Bible which described the Lord in terms that people say, well, 182 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: maybe this could be describing a volcanic eruption or something, 183 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: and it's one of those things that you can often 184 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: do with these geomethology. This actually, I guess would technically 185 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: geomethology a geomethology inference, and so I'd say for this one, 186 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's not impossible, but it's kind of a reach. Yeah, 187 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: I don't think i'd I'd run across it myself, but 188 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: I saw mention of it, and one of the sources 189 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: that was often there were often was often cited here 190 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: was a book by Jack Miles title of God Biography, 191 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,599 Speaker 1: which is a popular work that seems to discuss this. 192 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: So I looked it up and it's in reference to 193 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: Exodus forty eight. Uh, he writes, quote, nothing in nature 194 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: looks like a cloud by day and a fire by night, 195 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: except a volcano. The depth of the Lord God's compelling 196 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: but contradictory power is well evoked by the extraordinary image 197 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: of a volcano brought into a tent. Now speaking of 198 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: volcanoes and gods and getting back to to Tolkien. Uh. Now, 199 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: I've expressed in the show before that I love a 200 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: good journal paper that that digs into some Tolkien that 201 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: tries to find the science of Middle Earth. We've talked 202 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: about that previously with the Hobbit, you know, the how 203 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: many meals does the Hobbit need a day? And Willy'll 204 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: be able to march across the Earth? Uh. Also we 205 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: got into the metallurgy of the One Ring. So I 206 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: was like, well, somebody, somebody has to have considered Mount 207 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: doom and um and you know, the geology of Middle Earth. 208 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,239 Speaker 1: And sure enough I found a paper titled the Geology 209 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: of Middle Earth by William Anthony Swinton Sergeant, published in 210 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: the journal myth Lore in NI. Now, I know myth 211 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: Lore doesn't have a resounding ring of geologic authority to it, 212 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: but I looked up a Sergeant who lived five through 213 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: two thousand two, and he was a professor of geology 214 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: at the University of Saskatchewan. And he also apparently wrote 215 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: a series of fantasy novels himself, The Perilous Quest for 216 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: lion S. I looked it up. I have not read it, 217 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: but I've noticed you can get at least the first 218 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: two books in the trilogy on kindle and paperbacks. Amazing. Okay, 219 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: so he's the perfect person to right this, a fantasy 220 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: novelist and and clear geek who was also a professor 221 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: of geology. Yeah. Yeah, and uh he wasn't the first though, 222 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: so he when when he dives into this, he ends 223 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: up citing an earlier paper by Robert C. Reynolds titled 224 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: the geo Morphology of Middle Earth, which is published in 225 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: The Swansea Geographer in nineteen seventy four. So basically, what 226 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: Reynolds had done is he'd applied the concept of plate 227 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: tectonics to the entire geography of Middle Earth, recognizing four 228 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: different plates, the Erador played in the west, the Rovanian 229 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: played in the north, and the Harad and more door 230 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: plates in the south. And Sergeant then used this as 231 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: his starting point kind of his bedrock, but updated it 232 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: to reflect changes in plate tectonic theory between nineteen seventy 233 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: four in nine. Oh. Yeah, that's interesting because I would 234 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: say at the time the Hobbit was written, plate tectonics 235 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: was not yet an accepted scientific theory. Yeah. Yeah, it's 236 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: easy to to overlook that, especially for those of us 237 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: who who have grown up in the wake of that 238 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: and you know, just encountered in our science books at 239 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: a very early age. Yeah. It's one of those things 240 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: that just feels like people must have known this for 241 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: hundreds of years. But yeah, the widespread acceptance of plate 242 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: tectonics is fairly recent. Here's a quote from from that 243 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: paper by Sergeant quote. Mount Doom is indeed one of 244 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: four isolated volcanoes, each representing a hotspot at some distance 245 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: from a plate margin, and all of them associated with 246 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: evil doing dhal gouldar in Mirkwood or Thonk in Eisenard, 247 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: and Arab or the Lonely Mountain. So he contended that 248 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: Eisenard was a volcanic crater with central Orthanic itself carved 249 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: via technology and magic from a column of solidified lava 250 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: thrust up from the vent in its last eruption. The 251 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: Lonely Mountain, which is ever shrouded in gray and silent clouds, 252 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: is another, and he argues that Smog's chamber is just 253 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: a reshaped lava tube. But Mount Doom the underlines is 254 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: the only volcano that seems to be truly active in 255 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: the time of the Elbow and Frodo, and the only 256 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: recorded seismic events in the books occur first when Gandalf 257 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: cast down the ball Rog and then when Gallum falls 258 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: into the fires of Mountain Doom with the one ring. 259 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: Uh So, Ultimately, he's as for a world in which 260 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: all the major events are revolving around activities at a 261 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: single active volcano, Middle Earth is is rather seismically calm, 262 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: while still being quote geologically like our own world. Well, 263 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: I gotta say, I do not know what natural processes 264 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: could create that perfect rectangle of mountains around more door. 265 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: That seems impossible to me. I always looked at that 266 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: map and said, ah, that's just that doesn't look like 267 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: real Earth. You've gotta make the outline a little more jagged. 268 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: I understand, surrounded by mountains, but come on, look at 269 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: those corners. Uh. This is one of the things I 270 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: really liked about about our Scott Baker's work where he 271 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: his fantasy work takes place in this world of the 272 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: Three Seas that is very much Middle or Earth that's 273 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: been you know, transformed via these various philosophical ideas and 274 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, the Crusades interjected in there 275 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: and some other influences. But there is a more door 276 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: like location in the books with a central fortress and 277 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: then mountains surrounding it. But in in his books, this 278 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: is essentially an impact crater created by this thing from 279 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: space or beyond that has come to the Earth, and 280 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: that is the central uh fortress in the middle of 281 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: this uh, this this vast crater, and so the mountains 282 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: encircling it are those that were cast up by that 283 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: impact A plus very plausible. I like it. So anyway, 284 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: there's there's some just additional token to just really kick 285 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: things off here. But um, again, I would say that 286 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: that saron and certainly is getting more connected to those 287 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: those gods such as have Hestas, uh Adronus and Volcanos. Uh. 288 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: They are all smiths in the human sense, all creators 289 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: through technology rather than through the nature. That seems to 290 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: be their key metaphor here. The volcano. Well to bring 291 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: it back into the real world and look at this 292 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: duality of you know, the same entity that might be 293 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: both responsible for the creating sustaining of life, but then 294 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: also fiery destruction and and explosive calamity. I want to 295 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: start by asking a question that we talked about on 296 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: the show a good bit, and that question is, when 297 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: you're looking at other planets, you stare out of the 298 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: night sky and and you're trying to find examples of 299 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: other planets that might be able to sustain life, what 300 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: are the conditions you would check for. I think the 301 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: most obvious is liquid water, right absolutely. I mean water 302 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: is the thing that, uh, more than just about anything 303 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: else we just can't remove from the equation and get 304 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: to life as we know it. Yeah, and that's one 305 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: of the things we talked about when we discussed Brian 306 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: Green's book The Until the End of Time. He has 307 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: this great section where he connects the chemical properties of 308 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: water to its role in the evolution of life. You know, 309 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: the great power of water as this polar molecule and 310 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: as a solvent, as a sort of three dimensional canvas 311 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: for the drafting of the structure of cells, allowing for 312 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: energy to be processed and harnessed for replication. Uh. And 313 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: of course all of these virtues depend on water being 314 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: in its liquid state. Water and it's frozen or vapor 315 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: state is not really useful for the evolution of life. 316 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: But in addition to just looking for the direct presence 317 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: of liquid water, there are other conditions you might be 318 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: able to look for that could, at least in theory, 319 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: make a planet more hospitable to the origin, evolution and 320 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: maintenance of life, at least in theory, And you might 321 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: not expect it, but volcanic eruptions and the plate tectonics 322 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: that volcanic eruptions might signal are another one of those conditions. 323 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: So maybe we should take a break and then talk 324 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: about that when we get back. Than alright, we're back. 325 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: So the idea we're discussing here is the idea that 326 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: that the that just as pale is not merely at 327 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: a stroyer, but is also a creator volcanoes and the 328 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: underlying plate tectonics that they represent might also be key 329 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: to life. Yeah, and so I want to talk about 330 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: an article that I was reading by a researcher named 331 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: Craig O'Neill. So O'Neill is a director of the mcquarie 332 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: Planetary Research Center, and he's an associate professor of geodynamics 333 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: at mcquarie University, and he's done some direct research on 334 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: on simulating the evolution of heating models, and you know, 335 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: he thermodynamics within planets or geodynamics, And so he starts 336 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: off by talking about how that you know, there are 337 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: two things that make Earth unique in the Solar System. 338 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: You might think, because of the conversation we were just 339 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: having a minute ago, that one of them is liquid water, 340 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: but actually no, there are other objects in the Solar 341 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: System that have liquid water. Sometimes people bring up the 342 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: example of Mars. I think that's still an open question. 343 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: Of course, Mars doesn't have lakes or rivers. There's some 344 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: indication that it may have transient liquid water here and 345 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: there on occasion, such as in these features called recurring 346 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: slope lineer though, I think I was reading a report 347 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: that there is spectral analysis that has disputed the interpretation 348 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: of these sort of dark spots that appear on slopes 349 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: as as actual water. I guess we don't know for 350 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: sure what they are, but um, there are other examples 351 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: that are more straightforward, like it is totally scientific consensus 352 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: at this point that Jupiter's moon Europa has liquid water 353 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: under its icy surface. It's got the shell of ice 354 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: on the outside. Underneath that, it's got some motions. They're 355 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: sloshing around, they're having a good time. Who knows what's 356 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 1: happening there. But there is also possibly subsurface water on 357 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: Ganymede and on Enceladus. So the two features that O'Neill 358 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: singles out that actually make Earth unique within the Solar 359 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: System are that Earth has plate tectonics and that Earth 360 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: has life. And the question that he's raising is whether 361 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: these two unique features are actually causally related. If it's 362 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: not a coincidence that Earth's crust breaks apart into plates 363 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: that shift around and move over its surface, that float 364 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: on top of the mantle, uh, that sort of spread 365 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: apart in in some places and then subduct and move 366 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: down and get sucked back into the mantle and other places. 367 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: Does that process contribute to the creation and sustaining of life. Yeah, 368 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: this is an interesting idea because it basically comes down 369 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: to the question of of whether a geologically active planet 370 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: is necessary for life, like if there's something there's something 371 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: in this Uh, this continued geological life that makes biological 372 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: life more possible, right, And I guess there are ways 373 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: that a planet could be geologically active but not have 374 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: plate tectonics. Like I'm going to get to this in 375 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: more detail and a bit, but there are models of 376 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: planets where there are not plates on the surface, where 377 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: the surface is basically just one single spherical hard crust 378 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: sitting on top of the mantle, but it can still 379 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: have volcanic eruptions that could in some ways regulate the 380 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: heating of the planet and control its atmosphere in a 381 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: way that that could sustain life according to some researchers. 382 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: But but we'll get in more detail about that in 383 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: a minute. So we know that one of the prerequisites 384 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: for the evolution and survival of life as we know 385 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: it is liquid water. But why is it that Earth 386 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: has maintained the conditions necessary for liquid water basically the 387 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: entire time it's existed. Ever since we've had liquid water, 388 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: there has been the ability for water to stay liquid. 389 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: It's been long enough to allow life to continue evolving 390 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,239 Speaker 1: the entire time Earth has existed. So how is it 391 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: possible that Earth has been able to maintain these habitable 392 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: conditions in an almost adaptive and almost kind of accommodating 393 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: kind of way, right like, especially since the external conditions 394 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: have changed, like the Sun has grown thirty percent brighter 395 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: over the same period of time, so the heat inputs 396 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: on Earth have gotten much greater, and yet still the 397 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: the atmospheric climate of Earth has stayed relatively stable. And 398 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: O'Neill offers the answer that what's going on here to 399 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: keep Earth relatively stable is it's is the profile of 400 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: its geological activity. Primarily it's plate tectonics. So first of all, 401 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: you've got the idea that when you have plate tectonics, 402 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: you tend to create volcanoes at the edges of tectonic plates, 403 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: and when volcanoes erupt, they release stuff from the earth. 404 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: Stuff from the mantle comes up and is released up 405 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: into the atmosphere. Probably the most important things that get 406 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: released here are carbon dioxide and water vapor. Now this 407 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: this is a great point that we sometimes lose track 408 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: off perhaps when we think about volcanic eruptions and they're 409 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: more destructive aspects. The idea that uh that you could 410 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: have and you do have examples of terrific volcanic eruption 411 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: um blocking out the sun, essentially forming a kind of 412 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: nuclear winter type effect. Uh, sometimes on on the scale 413 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: of an entire planet, right, I mean, so that that 414 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: could be the case if particles get ejected up into 415 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: the atmosphere, that that shield the Earth from the Sun's rays, 416 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: and that can create a cooling effect. But over the 417 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: long term, what they're what they're releasing is greenhouse gases, 418 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: which which even though there may be particles that block 419 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: out sunlight and cool the Earth at a shorter term, 420 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: on a longer term, they are the volcanoes are polluting 421 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: the atmosphere with c O two and with water vapor 422 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: that trap heat down in the atmosphere. So that works 423 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: to help keep the atmosphere warm. But then there are 424 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: processes of plate tectonics that work in the opposite direction 425 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: to uh, the natural process of plate tectonics. It not 426 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: only releases these materials into the atmosphere, it also cycles 427 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: the deep back into the belly of the Earth. Now 428 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: the question would be, well, why is that important? Well, obviously, 429 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: if you just keep pouring more and more greenhouse gases 430 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: like c O two into the atmosphere, the Earth could 431 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: end up like Venus, you know, it could end up 432 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: with so much trapped heat that the surface boils and 433 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: there's no liquid water and thus no life. So how 434 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: does Earth deal with the extra carbon dioxide that gets 435 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: released from volcanoes. Well. As the tectonic plates of Earth 436 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: slide around on the surface, there are sites where those 437 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: plates get sucked back under the crust and into the mantle. 438 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: The Mariana Trench is one example of a location where 439 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: the plates are gobbled up by the Earth. And as 440 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: these plates get sucked in, they take substances with them. 441 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: They take water, they take a carbonate or carbonic acid, 442 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: which is the mineral form of carbon dioxide. So the 443 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: process is essentially taking c O two back out of 444 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: the atmosphere and sucking it down deep into the air Earth. 445 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: By the way, speaking of of Venus, um should should 446 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: drive home that the Venus is apparently lacking in plate tectonics. 447 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: Oh yes, and but for a long time, scientist didn't 448 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: think there would be any kind of volcanic activity. But 449 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: according to a Reuter's report that came out just this month, 450 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: scientists have identified thirty seven volcanic structures on Venus that 451 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 1: appear to be recently active. Well I didn't know that, 452 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: but that is an interesting indicator, and we can talk 453 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: about more examples throughout the Solar System as we go on. 454 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: That is totally possible to have volcanoes without having plate tectonics. 455 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: Though if you look at a map of volcanoes on 456 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: Earth's surface, some volcanoes just appear at random, you know, 457 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 1: they might be in the middle of a plate, just 458 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: some mantle hot spot somewhere. But most of the Earth's 459 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: volcanoes they line up right along those lines at the 460 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: boundaries of plates. So, for example, the western coast of 461 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: the America's the whole ring of fire, you know, around 462 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: the edge of the Pacific Ocean plate is where a 463 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: ton of the Earth's volcanoes are. But there's another interesting 464 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: feature of plate tectonics that that helps remove carbon dioxide 465 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: from the atmosphere, and that is mountains. I had never 466 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: thought about this before, but I read about this in 467 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: a couple of articles in O'Neill's and another one I'm 468 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: going to mention in just a minute. So the process 469 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: goes like this. As plates move around on the surface 470 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: of the Earth, they're floating over the mantel, they smash 471 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: into each other and they bunch up where they get smashed, 472 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: so as they smash into each other over the millennia, 473 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: they raise up the bedrock at their impact points, and 474 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 1: one one plate pushes the other up, and as the 475 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: rock is raised up, it forms mountain peaks of exposed 476 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: mineral bedrock. And O'Neill points out that mountains are one 477 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: of Earth's major CEO two sinks. It's a place where 478 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: CEO two from the atmosphere can be moved and stored 479 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: in a stable form. Of course, another example that we 480 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: could think about would be trees and plants. Remember that 481 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 1: the flesh of a plant is made out of carbon 482 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: compounds that are built out of c O two that 483 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 1: gets sucked out of the atmosphere and fused into carbohydrates 484 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: using the energy from the sun. This is what photosynthesis is. 485 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: So as plants build their bodies, they suck c O 486 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: two out of the sky. But mountains also suck CO 487 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: two out of the sky, but in a different way. 488 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: They suck it out through weathering. So as rain pours 489 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: down on the mountains, the c O two dissolved in 490 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: the rain water mixes with the minerals that are exposed 491 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: in the rocks of mountains. This forms new minerals, and 492 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: then eventually those new minerals with the c O two 493 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: locked inside, drained down the sides of the mountains and 494 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: end up in the oceans. So every time you see 495 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: a mountain range, you think that is like, it's like 496 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: a toilet for carbon dioxide. It's just like the Skies toilet. 497 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: It is what that mountain is. Well, I don't know 498 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: if that's the most romantic way to have to think 499 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: of the mountains, but I think it's beautiful toilet of 500 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: the okay, But still the point, the point is valid, yes, 501 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: And then there are other sinks as well. Also. C 502 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: O two gets dissolved directly into the ocean water itself, 503 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: so it's it's coming into the ocean in multiple ways. 504 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: It gets absorbed directly from the atmosphere into the ocean, 505 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: and it drains from the weathering of mountains and rocks 506 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: down to the oceans and ends up in the ocean floor, 507 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: often in the form of limestone. But in both of 508 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: these forms, the carbon dioxide that's locked up in the 509 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: ocean eventually can get subducted, right because at these places 510 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: where the plates meet, it gets sucked back down into 511 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: the mantel. Now, this takes a really long time. The 512 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: processes we're talking about take place over over geologic time, 513 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: not like on human civilization a line. So if you're 514 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,719 Speaker 1: getting your hopes up about the idea that, oh, you know, 515 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: Earth has a natural thermostat, we we don't have to 516 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: worry about climate change, Unfortunately, that's not how this works. 517 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: The natural thermostat that's established by plate tectonics has helped 518 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: keep the Earth within a temperature range where it can 519 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: maintain an atmosphere and liquid water and at least some 520 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: life forms. But this temperature range that it maintains is 521 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: number one, it's huge compared to the range that will 522 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: support stable human civilization as it currently exists. Like human 523 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: civilizations and cities and agriculture and the ecosystems we depend 524 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: on are all much more fragile than the baseline of 525 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: just maintaining an atmosphere, liquid water and some life and 526 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: then of course, the other point is that this process 527 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: takes a really long time. So even even if it 528 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: could help maintain in a much narrower range that we 529 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: depend on, uh, it takes a long It takes you know, 530 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: beyond human civilization levels of time to really reach equilibrium. 531 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: But to just to sum up the process of how 532 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: the thermostat actually works, I'm gonna quote directly from O'Neill. 533 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: He says, quote, if the Earth gets too hot, high 534 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: levels of rainfall and erosion start bringing c O two 535 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: levels down. If the Earth gets too cold and freezes over, 536 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: the erosion mechanism stops, right, so it stops raining on 537 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: the mountains and draining into the ocean. But vulcanism due 538 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: to plate tik tonics continues pumping c O two into 539 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: the atmosphere and the levels build up, eventually melting the 540 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: ice caps. It was this mechanism that allowed Earth to 541 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: recover from a global ice age in the neo Proterozoic 542 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: about six million years ago. Yeah, so again we're talking 543 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: about processes that they are taking place at geologic scale 544 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: and not a human lifetime scale. But then also on 545 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: top of that, even if you were exceptionally long lived, 546 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: do you are essentially immortal? These are not pleasant changes 547 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: to go through, I would imagine, like in either direction, 548 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: and we're dealing with goth catastrophe here. Oh yeah, and 549 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: these changes again, what we're talking about is how the 550 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: Earth's plate tectonic thermostat if if this theory is correct, 551 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: which it seems like it probably is. How the plate 552 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: tectonic thermostat is able to maintain Earth as a habitable planet, 553 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: So like it's still going to have liquid water, it's 554 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: still going to have an atmosphere that's a very low baseline. 555 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: You know that during this time they're going to be 556 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: mass extinctions there. You know, sea levels are going to 557 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: be hugely rising and falling. Huge parts of continents get 558 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: covered in ice, and then the ice retreats. So these 559 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 1: are this is not like stuff that would be like, 560 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: oh it's cold outside today. These are these are world 561 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: changing variations. They just don't change to the point that 562 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: Earth is no longer habitable like Venus or Mars. Does 563 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: that make sense? Yes, Still, out of catastrophe comes life. 564 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: And speaking of that, we're going to take a quick 565 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: ad break, but we'll be right back. Alright, We're back, 566 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: all right. So we've been talking about theories in geology 567 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: about how volcanoes and plate tectonics might be important for 568 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: making the Earth habitable for life and maintaining its ability 569 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: to host life over time. One of the things we 570 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: were just talking about was the idea of plate tectonics 571 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: is a natural thermostat regulator for temperature on Earth. That 572 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: it that allows the Earth to release and absorb greenhouse 573 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: gases in a cyclical way that basically keeps the Earth 574 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: from turning into Venus or Mars or some other uninhabitable 575 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: hell um. Now, there was another article I was reading 576 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: that was in Quanta by the science writer Rebecca Boyle 577 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: from June seen that mentioned a number of other theories 578 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: that have connected plate tectonics and volcanoes two various life 579 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: related plot processes on Earth and uh and I found 580 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: this all really interesting, so I just wanted to explore 581 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: a few of the things that she gets into in 582 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: this article. One of them is the idea that plate 583 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: tectonics might possibly have been important for the origin of 584 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: life itself. Now, this one is somewhat controversial because we 585 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: don't know for sure when plate tectonics began on Earth. 586 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: We we don't know how early it got started. There 587 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: their various theories about that. But for example, Craig O'Neil, 588 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: the author of the article I was just talking about 589 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: before the Break, has been involved on research that posits 590 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: that before the Earth had plate tectonics, it had a 591 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: period of what was what is called a stagnant lid state, 592 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: where it didn't have plates sliding around. It had this 593 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: sort of single hard shell floating on top of the mantle. 594 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: But Boil's article points to research about how the subduction 595 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: of plates on ocean floors actually creates conditions that are 596 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: that are friendly to various types of extreme deep ocean 597 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: life that we think of as being similar to, or 598 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: possibly the direct analogs of the earliest life on Earth. 599 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: Uh to quote one section boil Rights quote. As the 600 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: Pacific Plate is dragged down into Earth's mantle, it warms 601 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: up and releases water trapped within the rock in a 602 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: process called serpentine ization. The water bubbles out of the 603 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: plate and transforms the physical properties of the upper mantle. 604 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: This transformation allows methane and other compounds to percolate out 605 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: of the mantle through hot springs on the otherwise frigid, 606 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: cold floor. And it's this type of chemical reaction that 607 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: that on the ocean floor could possibly have given rise 608 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: to the earliest chemical metabolism and jump started a chemical 609 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: evolution of what would become cells and life as we 610 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: know it. We don't know for sure, but it seems 611 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: like one of the plausible origin theories for life on Earth. 612 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: In other words, the sort of ancient chemistry labs that 613 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: are are firing off random concoctions that that then end 614 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: up benefiting the emergence of life. Right now, there's another 615 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: thing Boils article mentions that touches on an issue we've 616 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: discussed on the show before, which is the Cambrian explosion. Apparently, 617 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: plate tec tonics have also been implicated as a possible 618 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 1: cause of the Cambrian explosion. Now, brief refresher on what's 619 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: going on here. Remember we've talked about this fascinating paleontological 620 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: mystery before roughly five hundred and forty million years ago. 621 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: There is a dramatic change in the fossil record before 622 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: roughly forty million years ago, in a period that we 623 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: know is the edi acron. Most of the life we 624 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: have evidence of is very simple. It's soft bodied worm 625 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: like creatures, sort of leaf shaped, multicellular fraunds. A lot 626 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: of soft bodied organisms, many of which are not preserved 627 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: very well. Um and there is not There doesn't seem 628 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,760 Speaker 1: to be a lot of diversity of body forms taking 629 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: shape rapidly, but then over a period of time that 630 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: is geologically really sudden. There's this proliferation of animals with 631 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: lots of different body types that have hard body parts 632 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: that are preserved very well in fossils, so we have 633 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: good records of them. This is when you get the trilobites, Anamala, Carus, Hallucigenia, Opabinia, 634 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: all of your favorite monsters of the ocean primeval. This 635 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,760 Speaker 1: is the Cambrian explosion, And the question is what explains 636 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: this apparently sudden acceleration of evolution and diversification of life 637 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: that happened about five and forty million years ago. Now, 638 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: there are a lot of competing theories. Some I think 639 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: some paleontologists say, well, maybe the rapidity of the Cambrian 640 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: explosion is sort of overstated, maybe there's some bias in 641 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: the fossil record, But I think it's generally agreed that, yeah, 642 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: a lot of new animal forms really do show up 643 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: pretty fast, and so other theories have to do with 644 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: like changes in the composition of the atmosphere. One that 645 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show that was pretty interesting 646 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: is that it was a reaction to the evolution of 647 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 1: hunting and active predation. As a novel thing on planet Earth. 648 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 1: There had not been hunting before, and suddenly as soon 649 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: as organisms are hunting each other, there's just like this 650 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: rapid race to find new ways that bodies can be 651 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: But Boil's article points to research from that actually links 652 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: the Cambrian explosion to plate tectonic activity. So this is 653 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: a paper by Ross Large at All published in Gondwana 654 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,959 Speaker 1: Research in and what's their theory, Well simplified, it goes 655 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: sort of like this, plate tectonics smash continental plates together. 656 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: So the plates are moving around and they smashed together, 657 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: and at the places where they smashed together, it often 658 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: raises up mountain ranges. And these mountain ranges at the 659 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: borders of plates consists of exposed mineral bedrock that's heaved 660 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: up into the sky. We talked about this a bit earlier, 661 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: and we we needed this a bit too in the 662 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: gold episode where we talked about looking for gold in 663 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: the ocean, and we talked just very briefly about why 664 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: one pans for gold in mountain streams. Yes, Yes, a 665 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: very good point. Yeah. So the rock that gets lifted 666 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: up as it smashes together at the edges of these plates, 667 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: the mountains that get raised up can be hammered by 668 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: the elements that exposes the underlying minerals to you know, 669 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: the wind, but primarily the rain, and the rain drains 670 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: chemical nutrients from the rocks down into the oceans, and 671 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: this causes a proliferation of chemicals like phosphorous, copper, zinc, selenium, cobalt, 672 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: and stuff like that in the seas. These nutrients in 673 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: the ocean then allow high biological productivity, the proliferation of life, 674 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: intense competition, and so it's kind of like the some 675 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,720 Speaker 1: of the most important chemicals of life have been hidden 676 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: by the gods uh in the deep earth and mountains. 677 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: They're the Prometheus figure freeing those and releasing them into 678 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: the ocean where they can become a part of life exactly, yes, 679 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: um and so boil rights quote. Maybe more surprisingly, Large 680 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: and his colleagues also found that these elements were low 681 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: in abundance during more recent periods, and that these periods 682 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: coincided with mass extinctions. These nutrient poor periods happened when 683 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: phosphorus and trace elements were being consumed by the earth 684 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: faster than they could be replenished. Large said, so in 685 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: times where the all of these very biologically useful elements 686 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: like phosphorus and some of the other ones we mentioned 687 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: are getting sucked back down into the mantle. It's subduction 688 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: areas faster than they're getting released from the from mountains 689 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: and and other deep mineral sources. These are bad times 690 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: for life on Earth. Suddenly, it's like life is not 691 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: getting its vitamins. Boil's article also mentioned several other interesting 692 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: theories I'm not going to go deep into detail about. 693 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: One is that plate tectonics could be responsible for atmospheric 694 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: oxygen on Earth. There's basically a two step procedure here. Uh. 695 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: First of all, plate tectonics create continents with rocks that 696 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: don't react with oxygen in the atmosphere as easily as 697 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: the iron rich early rocks of Earth did. And then 698 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: after that, carbon dioxide gets released from rocks into the 699 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: air and the ocean. That feeds the growth of photosynthetic 700 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: organisms like algae, which in turn produced oxygen as a 701 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: waste product, sort of an oxygen two step, which, of 702 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: course at the time was very bad for Earth because 703 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: oxygen is a poison and it will kill you. But 704 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: we evolved in the wake of that poison atmosphere and 705 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: here we are breathing it. And then another interesting idea. Uh. 706 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: That article mentions is the work of Robert Stern, who 707 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: is a geologist at the University of Texas, Dallas, who 708 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: posits that because of plate tectonics, we have more opportunities 709 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: for evolution on Earth than you might expect otherwise because 710 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: the rearranging of continents and seas through plate tectonics drive 711 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: selection effects and the evolution of new species. Uh. Starn says, quote, 712 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: you need isolation and competition for evolution to really get going. 713 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: If there is no real change in the land sea area, 714 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: there's no competitive drive and speciation. That's the plate tectonics pump. 715 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,240 Speaker 1: Once you get life, you can really make it evolve 716 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: fast by breaking up continents and continental shelves and moving 717 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 1: them to different latitudes and recombining them, which I don't 718 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: know if I had ever thought about it quite like 719 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: that before, but you do kind of see this effect 720 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: throughout history as continents drift around, they smash into each other, 721 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: they separate from each other. You see different life forms 722 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: kind of going their own way. Yeah, coming into contact 723 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: with each other for the first time. Um, you know, 724 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:14,479 Speaker 1: just changing the the scenarios that are driving evolution. Um. Yeah, 725 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,879 Speaker 1: that's that's fascinating. I've never really thought about it that way, 726 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: but if you you could look at a planet with 727 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: plate technomic tectonics as being like the ideal laboratory for 728 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: um for for the for for evolution to take place 729 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: in uh, it's it's kind of like it has an 730 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: automatic shuffle mode in place. Yeah. I like that plate 731 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: tectonics puts biology on shuffle. That's so good. Otherwise you're 732 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: just gonna listen to that one track over and over again, 733 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: and you're just gonna listen to the first three. You know, 734 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: you need to have it shuffled up every now and 735 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: then so you'll you'll you'll you'll experience the album in 736 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 1: a new order and suddenly you're gonna find new favorite tracks. 737 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: All right, I want to talk about one last thing 738 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: before we finish up here, which is an article I 739 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,800 Speaker 1: was reading about the use of volcanoes and plate tectonics 740 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 1: as a proxy for habit ability when searching for exo planets, 741 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: because that makes sense based on everything we've said here. 742 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: You know, in the same way that we would look 743 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,400 Speaker 1: for signs of water on another world as a potential 744 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: as a potential sign that conditions could be right for life, 745 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: then perhaps looking for volcanoes makes sense as well. Yeah, 746 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: so I was reading about this in a in a 747 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: NASA press release that was covering a paper published an 748 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: Astrobiology in TWI by Im Misra at All called transient 749 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: sulfate aerosols is a signature of exoplanet vulcanism. I think 750 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: these researchers were out of the University of Washington, and 751 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,760 Speaker 1: they're publishing a method for detecting volcanic activity on exo 752 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: planets to figure out which ones might be good candidates 753 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: to host life. For all the reasons we've been talking 754 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: about now, this began with students trying to find ways 755 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: to detect plate tectonics on exo planets. Obviously, you can't 756 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: resolve the surface of an exo planet with a telescope 757 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 1: or look at it long enough to know if it's 758 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: got continents that are moving around. Um. But the lead 759 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: author Misra said in this press release quote, I came 760 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,760 Speaker 1: up with the idea of looking at explosive volcanic eruptions 761 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: as a proxy or stand in for plate tectonics. I've 762 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: done some work modeling aerosols produced by volcanic eruptions for 763 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: other projects, so I started looking into how we might 764 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: detect an eruption and what it would tell us. Now, 765 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: this is specifically focusing on explosive volcanic eruptions that tend 766 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: to happen at the edges of tectonic plates. Again, I 767 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,879 Speaker 1: mentioned this earlier, but if you look at a map 768 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: of tectonic plates, you'll notice that the boundaries match up 769 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,719 Speaker 1: to lines of volcanoes on the surface of the Earth. Now, 770 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: what is it about explosive eruptions in particular? We you know, 771 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 1: we've all seen footage of volcanic eruptions that are not 772 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: particularly explosive. They're basically kind of gentle lava flows, relatively gentle, 773 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: you know, it's still a planet. And even during more 774 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, middle of the road volcanic eruptions, the gases 775 00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: and aerosols that get expelled from the Earth off intend 776 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: to fall back to the surface pretty fast, at least 777 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,400 Speaker 1: fast on a geological scale. But during these really highly 778 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: explosive eruptions, gases and particles shot up from the volcano 779 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: or often shot into the stratosphere where they can linger 780 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: for months or years, and they affect what's called the 781 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: transit transmission spectra of the planet. This is something that 782 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: we can actually detect with telescopes at at a distance 783 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: of you know, as far away as other stars and 784 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: their planets are. So, by looking at the frequency of 785 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: light reflected by an exoplanet as it transits in front 786 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,759 Speaker 1: of its star between us and its star, you might 787 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,280 Speaker 1: be able to detect whether there are transient sulfate aerosols 788 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: from explosive eruptions in the stratosphere, which in turn would 789 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: be a good indicator, though not a guarantee, of plate 790 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: tectonics down on the surface. The authors of the study 791 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: right quote, we propose that the detection of this transient 792 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: signal would strongly suggest an so planet volcanic eruption if 793 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: potential false positives such as dust storms or bowl eyed 794 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 1: impacts can be ruled out. Furthermore, because scenarios exist in 795 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 1: which O two can form a biotically in the absence 796 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: of volcanic activity, detection of transient aerosols that can be 797 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,320 Speaker 1: linked with vulcanism along with detection of O two would 798 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: be a more robust biosignature than O two alone. Right. 799 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: So this is another This is linking to another idea 800 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: people have had that if you can look at an 801 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 1: exoplanet and detect oxygen free oxygen in its atmosphere. That 802 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: might be a sign of life in the atmosphere because 803 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: you know, oxygen is often a byproduct of organisms, like 804 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: photosynthetic organisms on Earth, but you know O two can 805 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,799 Speaker 1: be produced by other things. So they're saying, if you 806 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: find that, and you find signs of volcanoes, this is 807 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: a good sign that this is a living planet. I mean, 808 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: it sounds like a solid argument to me based on 809 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,840 Speaker 1: what we've seen here. And it's and the thing is, 810 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's still vital information about the nature of 811 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 1: a given world. So it's not like you'd be you know, 812 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, chasing after uh a wild hair here. This 813 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: would be essential information either way, exactly. Now. On the 814 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: other hand, we mentioned that volcanoes are not a sure 815 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,840 Speaker 1: sign of plate tectonics, and this brings me back to 816 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: something I wanted to talk about. That was also from 817 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: Craig O'Neill, because O'Neill was writing about how you know, 818 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 1: because of the assumed association between plate tectonics and life, 819 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:34,320 Speaker 1: some astronomers and astrobiologists are interested in looking for exoplanets 820 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 1: with the potential for aliens and UH and they've tried 821 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,320 Speaker 1: to focus on places where plate tectonics seemed likely to exist, 822 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 1: and one candidate that O'Neill points out was long thought 823 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: to be these planets called super Earth's their terrestrial rocky 824 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,800 Speaker 1: planets like Earth, like Mars, like Venus, but even bigger 825 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: than Earth. And O'Neill writes that it was once believed 826 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,720 Speaker 1: that the odds of finding plate tectonics on big planets 827 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: like this was higher, but now it seems like that 828 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: might not actually be true because computer simulations have shown 829 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: that you can probably have very large rocky planets without 830 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,719 Speaker 1: plate tectonics and instead with a surface conforming to this 831 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 1: thing I mentioned earlier called the stagnant lid model, which 832 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,320 Speaker 1: sounds gross. Basically, it's where the interior of the planet 833 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,359 Speaker 1: is hot, it's cooling, it's releasing its heat, and the 834 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,000 Speaker 1: heat is released through volcanic eruptions. But the surface does 835 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: not have moving plates, and so no recycling of water 836 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: and CO two to the interior like we have in 837 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: the subduction on Earth. Uh, no formation of mountains or 838 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,120 Speaker 1: natural mineral sequestration like we have on Earth. It's just 839 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,520 Speaker 1: going to be kind of a big rocky planet with 840 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: a hot interior that has volcanoes, but the volcanoes just 841 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: sort of poke up occasionally out of its solid, spherical, 842 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: rocky shell. And O'Neill and the co authors of his 843 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,480 Speaker 1: of his paper that this article was based on, we're 844 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,280 Speaker 1: addressing the question of how is it exactly that planets 845 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: evolve over time, And they came to the idea that 846 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: planets might start hot and turbulent and then far down 847 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 1: the road they end up cool and geologically inactive. And 848 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,280 Speaker 1: that quote. We found that the evolutionary track of planet 849 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,279 Speaker 1: takes depends not only on its size, but on how 850 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,359 Speaker 1: it starts. For example, two planets identical in every other 851 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,160 Speaker 1: way but with different starting temperatures may evolve down very 852 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,880 Speaker 1: different evolutionary paths. And so what they argue is that 853 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,000 Speaker 1: plate tectonics like we have on Earth might simply be 854 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 1: a phase in the evolution of planets, sort of a 855 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,240 Speaker 1: lacuna between two eras of stagnant lids. And it's possible 856 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,720 Speaker 1: Earth was once a stagnant lid planet with a single 857 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: hard shell, and now we have plate tectonics, and may 858 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,440 Speaker 1: maybe one day we will not have plate tectonics anymore. 859 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,839 Speaker 1: So if this is the model that habitable worlds take 860 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: you would you would end up having, assuming they lived 861 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,360 Speaker 1: long enough, some sort of highly evolved life form ruling 862 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,919 Speaker 1: over a stagnant lid Earth. That's that's possible. Though there 863 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,560 Speaker 1: was another report I was reading that that complicates all this, 864 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: because you know, as I was saying, this is still 865 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: not a fully settled question. I was reading a report 866 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: from Penn State News about a couple of Penn State 867 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: researchers geoscientists there named Bradford Foley and Andrew Smile, who 868 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,400 Speaker 1: argued that no, in fact, they're findings show that you 869 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to have plate tectonics to sustain life 870 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: on a planet. Given certain conditions, you can just have 871 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: volcanoes basically keeping the planet roughly the right kind of temperature. Now, 872 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,800 Speaker 1: that wouldn't invalidate all the stuff we've said about the 873 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: role that plate tectonics have played in the evolution of 874 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,320 Speaker 1: life on Earth. But it's still basically just an unsettled question. 875 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 1: It seems to me whether or not plate tectonics are 876 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,120 Speaker 1: really necessary for the existence of life on a planet 877 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,800 Speaker 1: or not. By the way, one cool thing I came across, 878 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,240 Speaker 1: I didn't get super deep into this but it's also 879 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,360 Speaker 1: hypotheses about what happened to Earth's early stagnant lid in 880 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: order to turn Earth into a into a planet with 881 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: with subducting plates, plates moving around, sliding under each other. 882 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: And one theory is that was asteroid bombardment. So Earth up, yeah, exactly. 883 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,160 Speaker 1: Earth may once have had this this solid shell on 884 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 1: the outside where without moving plates, and then some kind 885 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 1: of impact or series of impacts broke it all up 886 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,479 Speaker 1: and got things churning around, and ever since then we've 887 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 1: had a crust in the form of moving plates instead 888 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,319 Speaker 1: of one solid plate. And that that has a very 889 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 1: kind of divine feel to it, right, like a stagnant 890 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,839 Speaker 1: world that is no longer advancing or creating anything new, 891 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,960 Speaker 1: and so now some force beyond them has to rain 892 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: down destruction so that so that like new possibilities can 893 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: emerge our of this shattered stagnantally. Yeah, And and the 894 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 1: one last thing I want to mention here is that 895 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 1: O'Neill points to one of my favorite objects in the 896 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,560 Speaker 1: Solar System as an example of a of an object 897 00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,920 Speaker 1: like a planet that can be geologically active and have 898 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,960 Speaker 1: volcanoes without having plate tectonics. And that example, of course 899 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,760 Speaker 1: is Jupiter's moon Io, the yellow hell of Galilee and Sulfur. 900 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,200 Speaker 1: You know, this was one of my favorites, and when 901 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: we did the episode about Jupiter's moons and so iow 902 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,360 Speaker 1: is Jupiter's innermost major moon. It's very geologically active, even 903 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,799 Speaker 1: more so than Earth. It's the most volcanic object in 904 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,080 Speaker 1: the Solar System. And this is a result of tidal 905 00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,640 Speaker 1: forces that act on the guts of Io. It's gravitational 906 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 1: man handling by Jupiter slashes the guts of this moon 907 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,759 Speaker 1: around and UH and its heat mostly escapes to the 908 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,959 Speaker 1: surface through what O'Neill calls heat pipes. These are volcanoes, 909 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,279 Speaker 1: not through the movement of tectonic plates. So to come 910 00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 1: back to our our god analogy here, in this case, 911 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: the god that is Jupiter is UH is too involved 912 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: in the in the in the nature of the planet. 913 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: It's like a um and micro managing oppressor UH as 914 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:21,160 Speaker 1: opposed to one that just periodically brings about destruction. Yeah, exactly, Jupiter, 915 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: it will never leave you alone. And I think what 916 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,000 Speaker 1: Ion needs to do is to go down into the 917 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,799 Speaker 1: void and get the dim O organ to come up 918 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,920 Speaker 1: and and kill Jupiter like he does in UH. In Oh, 919 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 1: what's that play Prometheus Unbound? There you go. But anyway, 920 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,840 Speaker 1: so I don't know, I found this really interesting. I 921 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,960 Speaker 1: don't think I had ever looked this deeply into how 922 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:48,160 Speaker 1: entangled the geology of Earth um and specifically it's it's 923 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: mineral geology, It's rocks are with the with the evolution 924 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,920 Speaker 1: of life on Earth. I think i'd always thought primarily 925 00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,759 Speaker 1: about like temperature and liquid water. Yeah, or i'd i'd 926 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,240 Speaker 1: probably focus more on sort of everyday human level things 927 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 1: like the fact that, okay, that you know the soil 928 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 1: near volcano is going to be rich and good for 929 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:11,200 Speaker 1: growing things, or that volcanic activity creates land that can 930 00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,120 Speaker 1: eventually be become habitable that sort of thing. But this 931 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,560 Speaker 1: is a much much deeper dive into like the the 932 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: truly geologic um level of the whole equation. Uh So, anyway, Yeah, 933 00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,200 Speaker 1: I think that does it for now. But but I 934 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,600 Speaker 1: hope you've enjoyed this journey into the volcano absolutely, And 935 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:34,160 Speaker 1: of course, as before when we discussed volcanoes on the show, 936 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,759 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you about your experience with volcanoes, 937 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:43,960 Speaker 1: life near volcanoes, visiting volcanoes, active and dormant, um, how 938 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:50,239 Speaker 1: does this affect your interpretation of these amazing sites? And 939 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,080 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 940 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,160 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, well you can find us wherever 941 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,480 Speaker 1: you find your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. 942 00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,000 Speaker 1: Just make sure you rate, review and subscribe if you can. 943 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,719 Speaker 1: These are acts that really helped the show out in 944 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 1: the long run. Before we wrap up, I've just got 945 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:05,919 Speaker 1: to say so, I don't forget. We need to get 946 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:11,120 Speaker 1: some mountains or the toilets of the atmosphere T shirts made. Oh, 947 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:12,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if that is good. That would be 948 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: a best seller. I don't know why not? Worst T 949 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: shirt ever? Okay, anyway, huge thanks as always to our 950 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,560 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like 951 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,839 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 952 00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,880 Speaker 1: episode or any other, just to say hi, or to 953 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,400 Speaker 1: suggest a topic for the future, whatever you want, you 954 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,399 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 955 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:45,800 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind's production of 956 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,480 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio 957 00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,520 Speaker 1: with the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 958 00:56:51,520 --> 00:57:04,400 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows, bid think Point fo