1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: text style from how stuff works dot com. Hello there, everyone, 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Polette, and 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: I am an editor at how stuff works dot com. 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: Sitting across from me, as usual, is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched seabeams glitter 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: in the dark near the tan Houser Gate. All those 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: moments will be lost in time, like tears and rain. Well, 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: it's a great way to start this podcast, as usual. 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: If you know the source of the quote, please feel 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: free to drop by uh Facebook or Twitter and let 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: us know. Yeah. I thought that one was appropriate because 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: the discussion we're going to have does play somewhat into 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: the realm of art of facial intelligence somewhat. We're going 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: to talk about technology and its effect on our noggins, 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: specifically gray matter, that brain that's slashing around in that 19 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: cranium of yours. Yeah, this is this has been a 20 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: topic of some debate recently. Um, probably, I guess more 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: over the past year. Um, thanks to our not really 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: good friend but someone we follow closely, Nicholas Carry, the 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: technology writer. He wrote an interesting article for The Atlantic 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: back in two thousand eight. Uh, and it was titled 25 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: is Google Making Us Stupid? Wow? Is it that long? 26 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: And that was two thousand eight July August two thou 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: eight edition. I've got it up right now, so as 28 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I was just gonna say, yeah, he wrote 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: this article is Google Making Us Stupid? And it was 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: an interesting, um, just an interesting take on technology, the 31 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: way we consume information, in the way we think. Yes, 32 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: and uh. He actually followed that up with a a 33 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: much longer format, a whole book called The Shallows Um, 34 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: which some people have taken issue with the title suggesting 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: he's already decided that we're all stupid. But I'm not 36 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: so certain that he actually meant it that way. Yeah. 37 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: That that's that sounds to me like the sort of 38 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: criticism one might make before fully uh reading a book, 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, one of those things where it's just your 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: initial reaction to a title and then so let me 41 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: let me give you a little story here, Chris, Yes, 42 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: all right, Uh, Now, when I was going to school 43 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: the Internet was not really something I had access to 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: all the way up until until the point where I 45 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: got into college. Really, my sophomore year in college was 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: when I was starting to really get get access to 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: the Internet. I can relate to that. So up to 48 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: that point, I studied just the normal way you would 49 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: attend classes. You would read, uh study notes and read 50 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: books and that sort of thing, and that's how you 51 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: you would gain knowledge. Now today I work for a 52 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: company where I write articles and blog posts and do 53 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: podcasts where I have to research various topics new ones 54 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: each week. I'm doing so using the Internet. Meanwhile, I 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: also am tapped into various communication tools such as instant 56 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: messenger email. I've got text messaging on my phone when 57 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: it works. We're recording this on the day that my 58 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: android phone died. Anyway, normally I have access to multiple 59 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: means of communication, and this would presumably give me access 60 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: to to amounts of information I never would have had 61 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: access to before. Write a huge, deep, broad scope of information. However, 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: despite this amazing ability to tap into lots of information, 63 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: I find that it is much more difficult to concentrate 64 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: on a single task for an any length of time 65 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: and so I have decided that technology is to blame, 66 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: and uh, it is ruining my brain. Now, what could 67 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: possibly be wrong with this argument? Well, I would say 68 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: that you're using anecdotal evidence. It's a good point. Yes, 69 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: I am speaking from my own experience. I have not 70 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: conducted any any deep study of this, mainly because I 71 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: can't concentrate on that task for long enough to do it. Um, yeah, 72 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: this is it is anecdotal. It's now that does not 73 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: mean that the information is wrong, right, Yeah, so this 74 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: is This is something that I wanted to address early 75 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: in this podcast because this is really going to be 76 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: an interesting philosophical discussion. It's not just technology, it's really philosophy. 77 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: And part of that philosophy is that anecdotal evidence is 78 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: not really good evidence to base an argument off of. 79 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: But but that does not mean that it is in valid. 80 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: It just means that, you know, there there are better 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: ways to support your argument. Now, I've read quite a 82 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: bit of agreement with Mr Carr's work, and I've also 83 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: read quite a bit of disagreement. Uh, most of the 84 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 1: disagreement I have read suggests that they all think, uh, 85 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, he's either afraid of technology or that he's 86 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: basing it on his own anecdotal evidence, which um, I 87 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: think the anecdotal evidence sort of started him down the path. 88 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: But in the Shallows he does explain, uh, a number 89 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: of studies that have been done on the attention span 90 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: of people who are using technology for work. Um And 91 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: and therefore, you know, I am inclined to say that 92 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: he's not. I'm why I'm not necessarily agreeing with his 93 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 1: arguments in both the article and the book. I would 94 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: say that um or is at least a kernel of 95 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: truth in it that it can be very difficult for 96 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: some people to manage the flow of information coming to 97 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: them from multiple sources, especially the Internet, where there are 98 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: so many different kinds of sources um to choose from. Yeah, 99 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: and going further than that, he car makes his argument 100 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: in in his article and I'm sure in the book 101 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: as well, but he makes his argument that reading and 102 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: the way we consume information shapes the way we think. 103 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,559 Speaker 1: So the argument here is that there are two different 104 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: ways you can think about thinking. Okay, there's the the 105 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: method where you say our brains are structured in such 106 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: a way that thinking is a process that is going 107 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: to be the same no matter how you consume your 108 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: information like it's just it's just a device. In a way, 109 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: we're just reducing it in complexity to call it a device. 110 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: It's a device that can accept information and then process it, 111 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: and then we act on that information in some way. 112 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: The other argument is that the brain is a very elastic, 113 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: flexible organ that's that will generate different ways of thinking 114 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: based upon the stimuli that it encounters. And in a 115 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: way that argument makes a lot of sense because one 116 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: of the the sources that car sites in his article 117 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: is Maryanne Wolf's Proost and the Squid, which is a 118 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: book about reading and learning, and Mary Ann Wolfe argues 119 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,239 Speaker 1: that humans are not born with the ability to read. 120 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: It's not an innate ability that we possess, unlike say 121 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: vision or hearing, where we can interpret the information in 122 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: the world around us using those sensory organs. That's something 123 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: that's innate that unless you have some sort of disability 124 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: or or disease or whatever, or some other form of 125 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: of impt a mint to those senses, you can. That's 126 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: one way you can gather information and learn about your environment. 127 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: Reading is a skill that we had to invent and 128 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: develop over time, and it's relatively recent. It's just a 129 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: couple of thousand years old. And that through reading, we 130 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: changed the way we thought. So the developing reading was 131 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: a skill that we had to learn. Through reading, we 132 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: changed the way we learn. We could preserve information unlike 133 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: we could before. Like before it was all folklore. Right, 134 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: you passed it down by explaining to people what you knew, 135 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: and then they would take the words you said and 136 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: they would apply it so that they would understand the concept, 137 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: and then they would have to pass it on. But 138 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: there was no easy way to share that information. It 139 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: meant that knowledge was kept in small pools across the 140 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: human race. Writing allowed us to to keep that information 141 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: in a locked format so that future generations could benefit 142 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: from it. Right, it could be fixed in some way 143 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: for you know, perhaps hundreds of years, so that that 144 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: people could read an original account or at least a 145 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: particular account of an event, or you know, to tell 146 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: a story. Now. Car says actually has a very interesting 147 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: little passage where he talks about how so creates uh 148 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: sorry Socrates. How Socrates bemoaned the development of writing because 149 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: he thought that by writing things down you did two things. One, 150 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: you reduced a person's ability to actually take in information, 151 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: understand it comprehended, and then build on it. Okright, because 152 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: now it's in a concrete format. And too, he was 153 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: afraid that it would give people a false sense of 154 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: knowledge that because there was a written thing down, there's 155 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: a written format of this information, that that would make 156 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: people feel like they knew more than they did. The 157 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: knowledge was written down, it wasn't necessarily in the person's head, 158 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: and so he was worried that people would become less 159 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: wise over time because they would be relying upon this 160 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: written information. They wouldn't really understand it, they would just 161 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: think they did. Hence cars argument exactly. Car takes that 162 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: to a further extent. Now. Um, like many many people, 163 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: I've read David Allen's Getting Things Done because there are 164 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: just so many things I have to do in a day, 165 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: a typical day here at how Stuff Works dot Com 166 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: and my my own personal stuff that I wanted to 167 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: improve my productivity. And one of the things that uh 168 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: that Alan argues is that it is stressful to try 169 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: to remember all the things that you have to do. 170 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: M Um. So one of the things he says that 171 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: is important for you to do is to write something 172 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: down as soon as it occurs to you. Uh, so 173 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: that you have you know, have it written down that 174 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: you know you need to do it. You don't have 175 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: to remember it anymore. You need to put it in 176 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: some sort of system. Now, it could be a piece 177 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: of paper, it could be a smartphone, it could be whatever. 178 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what the medium is in this case. Um, 179 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: but you need to write it down some way. And 180 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: that sort of plays into uh, you know Socrates slash 181 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: Cars argument, because if you're documenting everything, you don't have 182 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: to remember it anymore. For for Alan, that is a 183 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: sense of relief. You don't have to remember it anymore. 184 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: You can take a deep breath and relax knowing that 185 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: you're going to remember to do this thing because you've 186 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: written it down. Um. On the other hand, however, you 187 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: have the other argument that, well, you don't have to 188 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: remember it anymore, so you're not training your brain to 189 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: remember all the things that you have to do, and 190 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: you're not to focus on it. Yeah, you're not making connections. 191 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: That's another thing that Marian Wolf mentions in her book 192 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: is that the brain makes actual neuron connections kind of 193 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: like circuits really uh, for concepts, and you can start 194 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: to connect seemingly unrelated concepts in your brain just by 195 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: thinking about it, concentrating on it. Uh, it's not just 196 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: that you know you you encounter information and now you 197 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: know it. It's that you encounter information, you think about it, 198 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: you actually take the time to consider it, and you 199 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: start building connections from other information you've gathered previously, and 200 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: you form new knowledge based on that. It's it's similar 201 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: to a process a philosophy known as contemplative learning. In 202 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: contemplative learning, the goal is to actually take time to 203 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: consider the information that you have just encountered and to 204 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: incorporate that into your body of knowledge, not just to say, oh, 205 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: I encountered this fact, but to really have a deeper 206 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: understanding of what that fact means. What's what it's it's relevance, 207 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: it's context, that sort of thing. It's sort of an 208 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: element of critical thinking, but it's a particular, a particular 209 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: way to get to critical thinking. It also the think 210 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: on how much you read about contemplative learning, it can 211 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: start start sounding little touchy feely. It's got a lot 212 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: of elements of meditation in there, and there's a lot 213 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: of Uh, there's a lot of tie ins between contemplative 214 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: learning and spirituality, things that someone who may be more 215 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: skeptical might find a little um questionable. All right, But 216 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: the idea here is that you are allowing these connections 217 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,599 Speaker 1: to be made, and you're not just encountering information, reacting 218 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: and then discarding, which is that That's kind of what 219 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: cars argument is that the way we encounter information now 220 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: on the web, we will look for some relevant facts 221 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: for whatever it is we're searching on, and if we 222 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: don't see it pretty quickly will bounce to another source, right, yes, 223 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: and we may never go back to that first source ever. Again, 224 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: We've mentioned that that study by the hands Britto Institute 225 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: in Germany several times on the podcast now Um, in 226 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: which they had studied what some people call the web 227 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: generation u UM and UH. Also another group in Britain 228 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: had had had done this, and I scrolled past the 229 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: name of it UM. The Center for Information Behavior and 230 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: the Evolution of Research cyber Cyber at the University College 231 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: London both did similar studies on young people who were 232 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: sort of expected to know how to use all the 233 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: ins and outs of the Internet because because they grew 234 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: up with it and they were they were born, they 235 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: were born after the Internet with public Yes. Um, I 236 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: studied this in my UH in pursuit of my Master 237 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: of Science and Information Sciences degree because I was looking 238 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: at and the way of people seek information, and those 239 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: studies both backup Car in that regard and that people 240 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: tend to look for information on the Internet. Now, this 241 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it's 242 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: making you more or less intelligent. Uh, it's the way 243 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: seek people seek information on the Internet, and they do. 244 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: They skim from site to site, they hop around a lot. Um. 245 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: Very few people spend a lot of time on websites 246 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: when they are seeking information on a particular topic. Um. 247 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: And uh, I should point out to that the people 248 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: who have been demonizing Car for making these arguments. Uh, 249 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: he says. Look, no, I'm a writer. I absolutely need 250 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: the Internet. The Internet is completely revolutionized the way I 251 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: search for information, and it's awesome and it's brilliant. It's 252 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: just seems to be anecdotally, it seems to be changing 253 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: the way I think, you know, which may not be 254 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: a bad thing. No, changing the way we think that. 255 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: This has been the history of technology and ways of 256 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: recording information. It's just one of those things where we 257 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: do start to adapt the way we think. It's something 258 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: that's really unavoidable. I mean, unless you become a Luddite 259 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: and you decide that you're going to go and adopt 260 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: Socrates as manner and try and gain information that way. 261 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: And even then it's just on an individual basis. You know, 262 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: you're not going to stop the way the world is going. 263 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: Um and yeah, the study that you were referring to, 264 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: the cyber study, let me read exactly what they're finding was. 265 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: It was called that they called it horizontal information seeking. 266 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: This is a form of skimming activity where people view 267 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: just one or two pages from an academic site and 268 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: then bounce out, perhaps never to return. The figures are instructive. 269 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: Around six of the journal users view no more than 270 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: three pages, and a majority up to never return. So 271 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: the suggestion there is that people are able to find information, 272 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: but they may not necessarily comprehend it fully. So it 273 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: becomes sort of like our brains become filters, right, we 274 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: start filtering out anything that's not relevant to whatever it 275 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: is we're searching, and we sort of we sort of 276 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: pinpoint anything that is relevant and then uh, even Carl 277 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: will mention um and and also Clive Thompson of Wired 278 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: who wrote about this as well. He he had an 279 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: interesting article about the Let's see why. He called it 280 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: your outboard brain knows All was the title of his article, 281 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: and he's written about the subject multiple times as well. 282 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: He writes about how he uses various things like the 283 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: email and Wikipedia and other Internet sites to rely on 284 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: information so that he no longer retains it himself, and 285 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: that he he thinks of it as a richer thinking experience, 286 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: that he can add really valuable information in arguments and 287 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: discussions by linking to it. Uh So it almost becomes like, oh, 288 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: I know, I you know, I saw this, I found 289 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: this information. It's relevant to this discussion. Here you go. 290 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: But that's really all. That's incredibly different from understanding, retaining, 291 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: and being able to articulate information. It just means that 292 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: you're really good at searching. But that might be what 293 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: the new definition of intelligence is. It may not be 294 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: that's rotting our brains. You know. We kind of jokingly 295 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: titled the podcast that, but that it's it's changing the 296 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: the folk of how we think. Instead of thinking in 297 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: one way, we're now becoming really good at seeking out 298 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: and pulling up information. Although that that also takes practice 299 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: because the studies showed that students weren't necessarily uh innately 300 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: gifted with that ability. Now, there was an article called 301 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: uh and of course cars title has been echoed in 302 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: other titles, so this is kind of sound very familiar 303 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: an article style title Does Google Make Us Stupid? By 304 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: UM by Janet Quitney Anderson from Elon University and Lee 305 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: Rainey from the Pew Internet and American Life Project. UM 306 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: and UH. They actually had UH referred to a rebuttal 307 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: from uh Jemy Cassio I hope I'm pronouncing his name right, UM, 308 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: who was an affiliate at the Institute for the Future 309 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: and a senior fellow at the Institute for Ethics and 310 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: Emerging Technologies UM. And in response to that, they had 311 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: spoken with Nicholas Carr, who said, you know, clarified a 312 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: little bit more to say, Uh, the answer to our 313 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: question are the question we pose in our podcast title 314 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: is no, it's not about whether your i Q was dropping. 315 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: Your intelligence quote has nothing to do with this. It's 316 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: because it's whether or not people are becoming utilitarian thinkers. UM. 317 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: But Cassio UH, quoted neural physiologist William Calvin who basically 318 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: said that uh I was referring to an ancient volcanic 319 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: incident that that humanity learned from and in order in 320 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: order to survive. And UH. Basically the argument in the 321 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: UH in that article, which UH is really really awesome 322 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: also on the the Atlantic, basically is, look, this is 323 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: a new way of thinking. We'll adapt to it, and 324 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to adapt to it if we're going 325 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: to survive because there's so much going on now, so 326 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: many different kinds of events. Technology has advanced to the 327 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: point where we are going to have to think differently 328 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: and we'll just have to get used to UH what 329 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: he calls fluid intelligence. Actually scientists call it fluid intelligence, 330 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: which is UH the ability to find meaning and confusion 331 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: and to solve new problems. As the quote there, UM, basically, 332 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: it's not memorizing and reciting facts. It's to sort of 333 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: think on your feet if you will. UM. And basically 334 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: his argument is, no, you know, it's it. It may 335 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: seem a little weird, it may seem a little funky 336 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: and and possibly even scary to some people to have 337 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: to think in this new paradigm, but um, we will 338 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: will learn and it will be able to use our 339 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: brains in this new technology. We just have to get 340 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: used to it. And we've kind of addressed this sort 341 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: of in our podcast about how to conduct research online. 342 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: It's kind of talking about how to use this tool 343 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: in the most effective way. And critical thinking is still 344 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: very important even in this new paradigm of thinking. It's 345 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: just that critical thinking, the definition of it may have 346 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: to be tweaked, rather than sitting there and saying, all right, well, 347 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: you have to really consider this information. It might be 348 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: you have to be able to evaluate things like the source. Uh, 349 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: it's validity, it's relevance. You may have to be able 350 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: to do that on a very tight schedule. You may 351 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: have to do it quickly because there's so much out 352 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: there that you have to be able to separate the 353 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: good from the bad quickly, or else you're just overwhelmed 354 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: with information, some of which may not be very valuable. UM. 355 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, go ahead. I was going to say that. 356 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: Car points out that the internet can be a very 357 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: interruptive medium too. That you know, if you have alerts 358 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: turned on, if you're an accuser and you have growl 359 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: turned on, or if you're using Windows and have UM 360 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: outlook open and you have the little uh windows popping 361 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: up for example here at work or throwing around story ideas, 362 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: and everyone else starts joining in. All of a sudden, 363 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: you have new alerts popping up on your desktop every 364 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: five or six minutes or more frequently, depending on how 365 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: how often you turn it on. So pat your working 366 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: jokes are being thrown in there. But yeah, if you're 367 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: working on a project and you have these constant interruptions 368 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: from I AM and Twitter and your email, they may 369 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: distract you. Depending on the way you're thinking, they may 370 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: distract you from what it is that you're working on. UM, 371 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: and that can be that can be disruptive, especially for 372 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: somebody who's used to thinking in a very linear fashion. Yeah, 373 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: that actually brings us to another study I wanted to 374 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: mention in passing at least as a psychonomic bulletin and 375 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: review article Supertaskers Profiles in Extraordinary multitasking Ability and a Yeah, 376 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: this was a study by Jason M. Watson and David L. Strayer, 377 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: and they wanted to see, you know, people are getting 378 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: accustomed to having to multitask, but most of us aren't 379 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: very good at it. He wanted to kind of see 380 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: exactly how how well people could deal with handling more 381 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: than one task at a time. It also ties into 382 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: the the statement about how using a cell phone while 383 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: driving is equivalent to driving well under the influence of alcohol, 384 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: or actually worse than driving under the influence of alcohol, 385 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 1: depending upon the study. So what he did was he 386 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: and Strayer actually and he they did. They took two 387 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: hundred subjects, so small sample size. We should go ahead 388 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: and sure, yeah, you know, two hundred subjects scientific, but 389 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: could be more scientific, right, you're not scientific enough. But 390 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: they took two hundred subjects and they they gave them 391 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: tasks where they had to juggle multiple tasks at the 392 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: same time. They found that all but two point five 393 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: percent of the subjects performed poorly when having to do 394 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: multiple tasks at once. So, uh, they could still perform 395 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: the tasks, but they couldn't do it with the level 396 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: of proficiency they could if they were concentering on just 397 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: one task at a time. Two point five percent of 398 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: those people could handle it without any demonstrative reduction in 399 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: their abilities. So they were apparently able to do multiple 400 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: tasks just as well as if they were concentering on 401 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: a single one at a time, this two point five 402 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: percent were called super taskers. Now, the interesting thing is 403 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: that most of us think we're super taskers, even if 404 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: we aren't. That there was another element of the study 405 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: is that people who thought that they were really really 406 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: good at this. Uh, there were way more people who 407 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: thought they were really good at it than the actual 408 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: people who were Like, you only had two point five 409 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: percent who were good at it, but almost everyone thought 410 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: they were in that two point five percent um. Now, 411 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: it may be that the super tasking phenomenon is something 412 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: that will grow over time. It may be that we 413 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: as a species will adapt to this multitasking demand and 414 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: that future generations will actually be super taskers. Now, in Lee, 415 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: it's not it doesn't look like that's the case. It 416 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: looks like most of us aren't super taskers. But it 417 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: may be that that's part of this process of the 418 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: way we change our thinking, that future generations of humans 419 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: will actually be very adept at super tasking. Uh. And 420 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: of course, then there's also another science fiction need kind 421 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: of argument where you could say, yeah, or the singularity, 422 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: you'll take care of it because we'll all have, you know, uh, 423 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: sixty four core processors in our heads and we'll be 424 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: able to handle sixty four distinct processes at the same 425 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: time without any reduction in proficiency. That would be really useful. 426 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind having that. Yeah, I wouldn't either, except 427 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: my phone just died and I can only imagine what 428 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: would happen if the processor in my brain died. Yeah, 429 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: that could be problematic. But but that that kind of 430 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: ties into this whole technology rutting your brain thing. Again. 431 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: It's it's not it's we should we should go so 432 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: far as to say, it's not the technology that's doing this. 433 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: So it's it's not technologies fault at all. Yeah, So 434 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: we do not hate technology. We aren't afraid of technology. 435 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: Chris and I both embrace technology. We work for a 436 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: technology company. We each have our own gadgets that are 437 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: hooked into various networks. Um, it's just that it's the 438 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: process of having to deal with so many different lines 439 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 1: of communication when we're not used to that. That's not 440 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: how we've trained our brains over the last hundreds of generations, really, 441 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: And it's that, uh that you know, we had to 442 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: develop new skills in order to consume information. There's so 443 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: much information out there that you had to do it 444 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: if you weren't wanted to have a meaningful experience, right, 445 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: And I think to the thing to keep in mind 446 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: for both people on both sides of this argument is 447 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: it's gonna it's all going to depend on the individual. 448 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: Some people process information differently from the way other people 449 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: process information, and uh, you know, it's safe to say 450 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: that someone like the Nicholas car spoke with many of 451 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: the other writers that he knows and said, you know, look, 452 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: I can't It's hard for me to focus on reading 453 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: a book when I've been spending my time with the 454 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: Internet because I'm I've been immersing myself in a very 455 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: uh and a very short message, very immediate message type 456 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: of thing. And then I sit down with a book 457 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: and it's difficult for me to concentrate because I keep 458 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: wondering what's going on on the internet. And for them, 459 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: that may be the case, but it may not be 460 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: for some of the people who are saying, well, you know, 461 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: you guys are crazy, That's absolutely not the way we 462 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: think you're You're just you know, afraid of technology and 463 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: and you honestly don't know how to manage it, and 464 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: you need to find a technology that's that you can 465 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: use to manage your other technologies. Um, and maybe that's 466 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: true for one person, but maybe not for the other. 467 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: So you can say at least that there seems to 468 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: be some relevance to his argument in the in the 469 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: sense that old media adopts new ways of presenting information 470 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,239 Speaker 1: that are similar to the way new media does. Well. 471 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: Marshall mclewin pointed that out long before the Internet became something, uh, 472 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, for people to consider. It's just the medium 473 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: is the message, and you can't separate that the the 474 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: actual medium it comes to you in is also part 475 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: of the message itself, and that you can't separate them 476 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: completely from one another. That's why any book is different 477 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: from a paperbook. Well, it's also it also shows how 478 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: old media has tried to adapt by doing things like 479 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: you may look at a magazine and you see that 480 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of little boxes that have, uh, 481 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: an excerpt from that very article that you're reading. Like 482 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: if you were to read the full article and then 483 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: read the little box, he would realize, Hey, this is 484 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: just a quote that comes right from the article. But 485 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: that's quo. Yeah, it's an attempt to to give relevant 486 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: information in a very quick, efficient way for people who 487 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: that's how they consume information. It's also a good way 488 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: to fill two inches if you can't find the shop 489 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: at Okay, But I'm trying to say here, the Internet 490 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: has kind of trained us all to to consume information 491 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: that way. We're looking for the relevant facts as quickly 492 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: as possible, and everything else is kind of in the way. 493 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: And that's sort of how they sold media is kind 494 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 1: of adopting it to They're like, well, you know what, 495 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: if we don't play that game, no one's gonna buy 496 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: the magazine, So let's do it this way. And um, 497 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of talk a little bit, just 498 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: just sort of closing out there are two different uh 499 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: uh concepts I wanted to get across to our audience. 500 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: One is epistemology, which is the philosophy of knowledge and 501 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: how we gain knowledge and what knowledge is. That's sort 502 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: of guided a lot of this discussion because there is 503 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: a difference between information and knowledge. You know, you can 504 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: encounter information, be able to recite information doesn't mean you 505 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: know it, not not necessarily anyway, depending on how you 506 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: define no. Really, because again this is philosophy, so that's 507 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: a fascinating subject. If you're interested in this, I would 508 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: recommend looking into epistemology and some of the writers who 509 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: are really known for their their work in that field 510 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: of philosophy. The other is cognitive science, which again is 511 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: sort of how we learn and and what processes are 512 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: important the way we learn, and uh, it's just one 513 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: sort of branch of science that kind of tackles that. 514 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: And again it has a lot to do with psychology, 515 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: it has a lot to do with uh, various forms 516 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: of of imparting information or absorbing information. That's also really 517 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: interesting to me. So those two different fields or something 518 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: I would recommend listeners look into if they find this 519 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: topic really fascinating. If you don't, then I apologize for 520 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: the last thirty minutes, But I don't. I don't think 521 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: there is other than the literal uh answer. No, technology 522 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: is not rotting our brains. At least it doesn't appear 523 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: to be at this point. I haven't seen any studies 524 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: that suggests that, and even Nicholas Carr said, no, that's 525 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: not what I meant, um, But yeah, I mean it's 526 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: it's something that I think we're going to have to 527 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: do a lot of thinking about because the Internet is 528 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: still very new too many of us. Um uh and 529 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: and you know, even those of us who have like me, 530 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: who have had you know, twenty years of experiences in 531 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: the internet, you know, I still don't think that's long 532 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: enough to really grasp how it's going to affect how 533 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: we learn and how we think, how we deliver information. 534 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: So I think this is the kind of thing that's 535 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: going to require more study before we really understand what's 536 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: going on, and then that'll all change and want have 537 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: to study. That will really be fascinating if we could 538 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: just get a quick glimpse a hundred years in the 539 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: future and just see what society is like and what, 540 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, what's the concept of learning at that point? 541 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: Of course, by then maybe we're just doing the matrix 542 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: thing and just downloading information directly to our brains. Yeah. 543 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: That looked painful though, the thing that shooting in the 544 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: back of your head. Yeah yeah, well, you know it's 545 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: not for everyone. No, I'm just saying, there is no spoon. 546 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: So well, that wraps up this discussion. 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