1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hi, it's sukshat. While some of us enjoy downtime, this week, 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: we're bringing you a cool, wintry episode that should pair 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: well with any leftovers from your holiday cooking. It's about 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: refrigeration and the nearly invisible cold chain that makes it 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: possible for us to eat the twenty first century diets 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: we enjoy, and it's something that Nicola Twilly, who I 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: spoke with earlier this year, thinks we don't pay enough 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: attention to. So take a listen and enjoy. We'll be 9 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: back in the new year with a fresh episode with 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: the writer Kim Stanley Robinson about his climate visions for 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati. 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: This week the Cold Rush. 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,319 Speaker 3: There's plenty of mistakes that happen in all that progres system, 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: full of little small decision. If your bat like ninety percent, 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 3: you're doing great, So I'd say ninety percent of what 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 3: comes over here is perfectly good. And then there's always 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 3: the second wave of our inspections. 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: That's a guy inside of fridge, a really big fridge. 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: His name is Matthew de Rico, and he's giving a 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: tour of a cold storage facility in the bikes. Matthew's 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: family has been in this business for generations. 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 3: We're dealing with a perishable product. It's grown under interesting 23 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 3: conditions that are all different. 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: A century ago, they were responsible for the first transcontinental 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: shipment of broccoli from California to New York on a 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: refrigerated train. Those were the earliest days of the cold chain. 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: Now those of us in developed countries take it for granted. 28 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: Today three quarters of everything on the average American plate 29 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: is processed, packaged. 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: Shipped, stored, or sold cooled. You know cold. 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Storage facilities exist, but I bet you don't know just 32 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: how big these spaces have become. The US alone boasts 33 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: around five point five billion cubic feet of refrigerated space. 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: That's like one hundred and fifty Empire State building's worth 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: of freezers, and developing countries are starting to catch up. 36 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: Between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two, the whole world's 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: chilled and frozen warehouse space increased by twenty percent at 38 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: a time when ice caps are melting faster than ever. 39 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: The number of walk in refrigerators is also expanding. This 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: coal rush has huge implications for the planet. It's something 41 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: journalist Nicola Twilly has thought a lot about She's explored 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: quite a few giant freezers, like the one Matthew works in. 43 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: That's because she's the author of a new book about 44 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: how refrigeration has shaped our food, ourselves, and our planet. 45 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: It's called Frostbite, and it's a really fun read full 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: of crazy trivia, like the fact that the Irish independence 47 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: movement might have refrigerated beef from the US to thank 48 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: for its success. Now, refrigeration is considered a climate solution. 49 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: More than thirty percent of all food produced on farms 50 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: in poor nations never makes it to a store, and 51 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: a coal chain can help reduce that food waste. But 52 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: on the flip side, it turns out that having access 53 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: to refrigeration can also. 54 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 2: Lead to food waste. 55 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: Americans waste more than thirty percent of their food in 56 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: their homes because they hold so much in the fridge. 57 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: That's why I was excited to talk to Nicola, because 58 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: the humble fridge is going to play a big part 59 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: in our planet's future. Nikola, welcome to the show. 60 00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. 61 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: Now, let's start at the beginning with the invention of refrigeration. 62 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: It's one of those modern miracles that few people think 63 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: about and most people take for granted. But the route 64 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: to inventing the fridge was quite long. Can you take 65 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: us back in time and talk us through how it happened. 66 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, if you think about it, humans have had control 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 4: of fire since before we were modern humans, and yet 68 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 4: we haven't been able to produce cold at will until 69 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: maybe one hundred and fifty years ago, Max. So it's 70 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 4: sort of an incredibly recent invention. And it's not that 71 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 4: early humans had no idea that cold would preserve food, 72 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 4: because they noticed that right away. It's just that there 73 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 4: wasn't a sense of how to control it or even 74 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 4: what cold was. It was actually all of the great 75 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 4: minds of scientific history Galileo, you know, Francis Bacon, Robert Boyle, 76 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 4: Leonardo da Vinci, they all kind of wrestled with what 77 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 4: is cold? And there was theories that, oh, it's maybe 78 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 4: you know, these frigorific atoms, or maybe it's sort of 79 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 4: a force that gets distributed from the north pole or 80 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 4: rises up from the ground down from the air. No 81 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 4: one had any idea. It was actually immensely frustrating for people. 82 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 4: Francis Bacon died while he was trying to figure it 83 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 4: out from a chill caused by trying to stuff a 84 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 4: chicken with ice. So it really took a long time 85 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 4: to work it out. And actually even when the first 86 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 4: person to sort of create cold artificially, a Scottish doctor 87 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 4: named William Cullen, he sort of did it as a 88 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 4: party trick because it wasn't something you could do at 89 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 4: at scale. It wasn't seen as something that would work 90 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 4: to refrigerate our whole food system, let alone. You know 91 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 4: the way we use air conditioning now, you know our factories, houses, 92 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 4: you know data centers. He just managed to evaporate some 93 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 4: ether under pressure and freeze a flask of water, and 94 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 4: no one looked at that and saw the potential for 95 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 4: another seventy five years. And the first refrigerating machines were 96 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 4: just enormous and blew up all the time and were 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 4: incredibly dangerous. All of the early pioneers just constantly losing 98 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 4: eyebrows and you know, fingers and all the rest of it. 99 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 4: So it took a very long time. You know, the 100 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 4: first commercial machine was the eighteen fifties. It doesn't become 101 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 4: domesticated something that we can actually have in our homes 102 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 4: until the nineteen twenties, so that's one hundred years ago. 103 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 4: It's really recent. 104 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: And it was shocking to know that you just went 105 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: and built a refrigerator for yourself for this book. Is 106 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: it really that simple? 107 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 4: Well, so, I was an embarrassingly long way through the 108 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 4: writing of this book when I realized I too, really 109 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 4: didn't understand how to make cold. I was like Galileo, 110 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 4: I had no idea. You know. I was looking at 111 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 4: how cold had reshaped what we eat, and where it's grown, 112 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 4: and how it tastes, and how good it is for 113 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 4: us and the planet. But I didn't understand how we 114 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 4: made it. So a friend of a friend runs an 115 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 4: HVAC startup and he said, well, come to my garage. 116 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 4: We can build a fridge. And I was like, you 117 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 4: can't just build a fridge. But it turns out you 118 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 4: can now. To be fair, this was a bit more 119 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 4: like when you make dinner from you know, jarred pasta 120 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 4: sauce and a retisserie chicken and some pre washed you know, 121 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 4: spinach leaves. Was something I wasn't actually building all the 122 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 4: elements from scratch. So we had purchased a compressor. We 123 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 4: had purchased an evaporator. We had purchased the various there's 124 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 4: sort of four main components, and what we did was 125 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 4: join them up in such a way and then charge 126 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,679 Speaker 4: it with refrigerant, which is the chemical that evaporates under 127 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 4: pressure to create the cooling effect. Because if any of 128 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 4: your listeners are like me and have no idea what 129 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 4: cold is, still it's it's just the absence of heat. 130 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 4: And so cooling is that sense of loss as you 131 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 4: remove heat. And so what you want to do, if 132 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 4: you remember from high school physics, which I completely did not, 133 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 4: is when a liquid evaporates into a gas that takes energy, 134 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 4: and you suck that energy in from the atmosphere around 135 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 4: you as heat energy, thus creating the sort of sense 136 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 4: of losses. All that heat energy is pulled away the 137 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 4: cooling and so it's a really simple system. The trick is, 138 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 4: of course, to create you know, you do that once. 139 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 4: That's what William Cullen did in seventeen fifty five. The 140 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 4: trick is to keep doing it and create a circuit 141 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 4: where it just goes round and round and and keeps evaporating. 142 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 4: But even that is surprisingly simple once you've built it. 143 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 4: It's just something that I think is so invisible to 144 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 4: the majority of us that we never think about it. 145 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a major turning point came when this invention 146 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: was put to work at scale. And you write before 147 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: that most meat eaten in cities walked itself to market, 148 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: often over enormous distances, and of course when catalysts marching 149 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: miles to an urban slaughterhouse, it's getting skinnier along the way. 150 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: But once the problem of moving large quantities of frozen 151 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: meat was solved, all that changed, and soon beef was 152 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: being shipped across oceans from America to England. How did 153 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: this transform the way we eat? 154 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 4: It's an astonishing transformation on so many levels. As you say, 155 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 4: I mean, the problem of getting meat and also dairy 156 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 4: into cities was really a huge one, not least of 157 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 4: which was that you then had to slaughter them in 158 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 4: the city. And so the area around Smithfield Market in 159 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 4: London or the slaughterhouses in New York was just I mean, 160 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 4: can you imagine slaughtering enough beef for a city in 161 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 4: the middle of that city in summer, say, I mean, 162 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 4: it was nauseating. There was blood, guts, foam, froth, it 163 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 4: was absolutely horrific. And bringing meat from places like Argentina, 164 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 4: New Zealand Australia, where there was vast amount of land 165 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 4: not a lot of people. It lowered the price of 166 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 4: meat immediately, I mean by a quarter at least, and 167 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 4: so suddenly poor people who had not been able to 168 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 4: have meat except on very special occasions could dine on 169 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,119 Speaker 4: meat frequently. You know, red meat consumption went through the roof. 170 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: And today we think of one of the climate solutions 171 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: is to try and eat less red meat because it 172 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: produces so much greena's gases, mostly from cow's belching methane. However, 173 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: this increase in meat consumption happened partly because of the 174 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: ability to move cheap meat around, but also because science 175 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: at the time, for some reason, at least in the West, 176 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: was telling people the only way to survive is to 177 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: have more protein, and the protein comes from meat. 178 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 4: Right. This is sort of a sad mistake in the 179 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 4: history of science. Chemistry was a relatively recent field of 180 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 4: research in the eighteen hundreds. You know, previously there had 181 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 4: been alchemists and they were trying to turn things into 182 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 4: gold and find elixirs of eternal life. So it was 183 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 4: a relatively new field and one of the things that 184 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 4: chemists were doing. We're trying to sort out what it 185 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 4: is in food that we need, and in the early 186 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 4: eighteen hundred some mistaken experiments led them to the conclusion 187 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 4: that actually it was only protein. Carbohydrate and fat were 188 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 4: just sort of nice to have, not necessary, and no 189 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 4: one knew about vitamins. Vitamins didn't come along until the 190 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 4: nineteen thirties, so protein was the be all and end all, 191 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 4: And that discovery coincided with the expansion of cities to 192 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 4: the first time that London was sort of going from 193 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 4: a million people to two million people to three million people, 194 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 4: the largest cities the world had ever seen. And as 195 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 4: we talked about, getting meat into cities is really hard. 196 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 4: So you have this sudden sort of scientific realization that 197 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 4: if we were to have, you know, strong men to 198 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 4: work in factories and make the nation great, they must 199 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 4: be fed with protein, and the fact that we can't 200 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 4: get protein to them, so it was an utter panic. 201 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 4: Of course, you know, they could have had lentils, but 202 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 4: the scientists at the time weren't looking at lentils for 203 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: their protein content. They were looking at beef. So I mean, 204 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 4: we could have had a very different world if those 205 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 4: scientists had been like we all need to eat lentils. 206 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 4: It's all a sort of misunderstanding, but it shaped our 207 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 4: modern food system. 208 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: We recently did a whole series on the show about 209 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: the power grid, and in a way, you can call 210 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: it the world's biggest machine because everything works in sync. 211 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: And when I was reading the book, it made me 212 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: think that the cold chain is kind of similar. It's 213 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: a giant system. Yes, it's not in one place, and 214 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: it's not connected all the time, but it is connected. 215 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: So was it one of your hopes that when people 216 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: read the book they realized this standalone home appliance that 217 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: you have is actually part of a huge system. 218 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 4: Exactly, yes, And that's why I in the chapter where 219 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 4: I look at the domestic refrigerator, I call it the 220 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 4: tip of the iceberg. I mean, within the industry our food, 221 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 4: our perishable food supply system is called a cold chain, 222 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 4: with the idea chain that it is connected from your 223 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 4: farm to your fridge. The domestic fridge is really the 224 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: weak link because once you pick it up the supermarket, 225 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 4: then it sits in your car or in your bike 226 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 4: rack or you know, shopping bag and isn't refrigerated on 227 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 4: its way home. But up until that point, say a 228 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 4: green bean within an hour or two of harvest kind 229 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 4: have been brought down to a certain temperature and kept 230 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 4: there all the way to supermarket shelves. So I ended 231 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 4: up seeing it as a sort of distributed winter. And 232 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 4: it's entirely connected by this network of refrigerated chipping containers 233 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 4: and ships and trucks and trains, but it isn't visible 234 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 4: as one gigantic winter. It's a series of sort of 235 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 4: pockets of cold. This artificial winter that our food spends 236 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 4: time in, moves around in. It's actually enormous, but because 237 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 4: you never see it as a connected whole, you don't realize. 238 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: Now, this artificial winter does sound very energy intensive. Were 239 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: you able to put a number on the amount of 240 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: emissions that are attached to refrigeration. 241 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 4: Yes, it's a difficult one to get an exact number on, 242 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 4: and of course you're not taking into accounts sort of 243 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 4: the expanded emissions that come from, say, being able to 244 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 4: eat more red meat because you can cool it. So 245 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 4: leaving aside those sort of knock on effects, cold storage 246 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 4: companies are currently the third highest industrial consumers of energy, 247 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 4: so the power to run cooling equipment is more than 248 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 4: eight percent of global electric usage right now. 249 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: There's energy used. But of course there's another warming impact 250 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: to consider in refrigeration, and that's to do with the refrigerant. 251 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: The gas that moves around, is compressed, is evaporated. In 252 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: the early days, that gas was a poisonous gas, typically 253 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: ammonia or sulfur dioxide, and it caused a bunch of 254 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: accidents and the industry was forced to find an alternative, 255 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: which it did and was pretty effective, except it was chlorofluorocarbons, 256 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: which turned out to not be poisonous but created a 257 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: hole in the ozone layer. So one of the most 258 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: successful environmental treaty comes out of that desire to change 259 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: the refrigerant one more time, from CFCs to what became hfc's, 260 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: which did not create a hole in the ozone layer, 261 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: but are super warming gases. There are thousands of times 262 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: more warming ton for ton for CO two. Now we 263 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: are at that point we need to eliminate hfc's as well. 264 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: So what are the choice of refrigerants that we have 265 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: today and what does innovation look like? 266 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 4: So, yeah, that's a great question. There are lower global 267 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 4: warming potential as they call it GWP refrigerants coming on 268 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 4: the market. Many refrigerated warehouses and such like are moving 269 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 4: to ammonia systems. For example, we're going. 270 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: It's very dangerous, except we can handle it better at 271 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: this time. 272 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 4: I'm assuming well, I mean, if it leaks. I had 273 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 4: a graphic description from a guy who runs a refrigerated 274 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 4: warehouse who said, you know, when you see that white cloud, 275 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 4: you're seeing death. It wants your crevices. Apparently, it goes 276 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 4: for your eyeballs. It's just really a nasty chemical. And 277 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 4: so one of the problems actually is that the coal 278 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 4: chain is expanding everywhere. It's expanding even in countries that 279 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 4: seem as though they already have plenty of refrigerated space, 280 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 4: such as the United States. But it is expanding fastest 281 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 4: in parts of the world that don't have a cold 282 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 4: chain currently, so sub Saharan Africa, large parts of Southeast Asia. 283 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 4: Those places are building a cold chain from scratch right now. 284 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 4: And they are also not typically equipped with a lot 285 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 4: of trained engineers who can work with these dangerous gases, 286 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 4: and a lot of the replacement refrigerants are much harder 287 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 4: to use. Flammable, toxic, just difficult and require more sophisticated machinery. 288 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 4: So it's really a hard thing to replace these HCFCs 289 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 4: and HFCs with these new refrigerants in places that already 290 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 4: don't have enough engineers to make the simple non toxic 291 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 4: refrigerants work. So that's one of the huge issues. And 292 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 4: actually now there's a huge black market in hdfc's and 293 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 4: hfs c's because they're cheaper, easier to use. The old 294 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 4: equipment runs on them, and so even though they're being 295 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 4: phased out or even in some cases banned, they're still 296 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 4: widely traded and widely used because they work and people 297 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 4: know how to use them. So that's a huge problem. 298 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 4: But to me, I thought the most interesting thing was 299 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 4: not to think about the future of refrigeration beyond just okay, 300 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 4: how do we make a better refrigerant, but can we 301 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 4: make a better way of cooling? And even beyond that, 302 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 4: can we make a better way of food preservation? Food 303 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 4: preservation is the goal here, after all, cooling is just 304 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 4: how we do it. 305 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: And you also travel to China as part of your reporting. Now, 306 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: I went to China last in twenty eighteen, so it's 307 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: been a while. But having traveled to the US and 308 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: the UK. Before I travel to China, I was kind 309 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: of shocked by how developed the country was. Infrastructure was fantastic, 310 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: the fast trades but really fast. The system to pay 311 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: was easier, you could use apps, et cetera. But you 312 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: found that the coal chain wasn't developed enough. And that 313 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: was a little bit surprising to me. Why is that 314 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: the case. 315 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 4: Well, that's changing really really fast. So China made building 316 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 4: a cold chain, a modern cold chain, part of its 317 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 4: twelfth five year plan. And you know, when China sets 318 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 4: out to do something, they really do it. And so 319 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 4: it took a while and it was uneven. You know, 320 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 4: the major cities had much better refrigerated facilities. The rural 321 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 4: areas had nothing, and there were gaps, and you know, 322 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 4: people would say to me, oh, we would import you know, 323 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 4: chicken and it would come in beautiful and the port 324 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 4: would be kept cold, and then we would find it, 325 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 4: you know, five days later in a rural distribution warehouse 326 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 4: with just a wet towel over it to keep it 327 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 4: quote unquote fresh. So it was a work in progress 328 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 4: when I went, but it's accelerating fast. And I would say, China, 329 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 4: it's a huge country. It has a huge food system, 330 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 4: its cold chain is still only one sixth the size 331 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 4: of the US one, so there's still you could argue 332 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 4: that the US one is bigger than we need, but 333 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 4: there's definitely still room for growth in China. But you 334 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 4: can start seeing that it's really getting there. So for example, 335 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 4: Washington State cherries used to be air freighted to China 336 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 4: because they were popular as gifts, and you couldn't get 337 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 4: decent cherries imported from the countryside in China because the 338 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 4: cold chain didn't exist to get them to the cities. 339 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 4: So it's easier to import them air freight them from 340 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 4: Washington State than bring them in from the countryside in China, 341 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 4: just because the cold chain wasn't there. That's changing, so 342 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 4: now it's making less economic sense to air freight them, 343 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 4: and as the cold chain is built up in China, 344 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 4: more economic sense to bring them in from the countryside. 345 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 4: And you can see that change in sort of real time. 346 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: Washington State farmers are adjusting to that because the cold 347 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: chain in China is picking up. 348 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: After the break. How refrigeration can reduce food waste or 349 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: if you're not careful, increase it. 350 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: If you've been. 351 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: Enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and 352 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps 353 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: other listeners find the show. Having seen enough refrigerators in 354 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: America over the years of traveling to America, oh my god, 355 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: American fridges are huge and they really don't need to 356 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: be Aha. But on food waste itself, there are two 357 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: stories to be total when it comes to refrigeration. On 358 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: the one hand, in developing countries where you still get 359 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: a lot of agriculture being part of the economy, not 360 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: having a coal chain can lead to a lot of 361 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: food waste as the food travels from the farm to 362 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: the consumer because it rots in the process. On the 363 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: other hand, having access to refrigeration in developed countries means 364 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: people just buy a ton of food and think it's 365 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: going to be all okay in the fridge and it 366 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: isn't the case, and a lot of food is wasted 367 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: in refrigerators. So how do we actually try and figure 368 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: out how to reduce food waste and use refrigeration as 369 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 1: a benefit not a loss. 370 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really interesting problem. You know. Food waste 371 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 4: is often touted as the reason to build a cold 372 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 4: chain in countries like I visited Rwanda with a un 373 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 4: sponsored sort of effort to bring the cold chain. I mean, 374 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 4: people are losing thirty to forty percent of the harvest 375 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 4: before it ever gets to market. Now, that's a horrific 376 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 4: waste in a country as poor, and you can't afford 377 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 4: to be losing that much food. So you can see 378 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 4: why there's a desire for a cold chain. The problem, 379 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 4: as you say, is that in the developed world, we 380 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 4: are throwing away thirty to forty percent of our food. 381 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 4: At the retail and consumer end. The abundance that refrigeration 382 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 4: has given us is translated into a sort of lack 383 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 4: of care, a willingness to waste. The food is so 384 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 4: plentiful and so cheap that people would rather go and 385 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 4: buy something else, I mean, honestly, rather than sniff their milk, 386 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 4: because obviously sniffing off milk will kill you. Everyone knows 387 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 4: that they would rather pour it out and buy you know, 388 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 4: just trust the cell by label and buy another pint. 389 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 4: And that's that isn't an impact of refrigeration too. So 390 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 4: some of the things I looked at here are first 391 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 4: of all, sell by dates ridiculous. There is no sort 392 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 4: of logic to them. I mean, in the US, it's 393 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 4: a particular mess you have because it can be state 394 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 4: by state. So in Montana milk will expire a week 395 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 4: earlier than it will in the rest of the country. 396 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 4: There's nothing particularly you know, poisonous to milk about Montana. 397 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 4: It's just the system. So that's ridiculous. You know, people 398 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 4: have tried to come up with all kinds of smart 399 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 4: fridges and technological solutions. Here, to my mind, the things 400 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 4: that work most effectively are actually ways to save food 401 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 4: from the refrigerator and make it visible. So there's a 402 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 4: few different things. I mean, one, there's a quote from 403 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 4: an architect I love that says small fridges make good cities. 404 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 4: But we know this with motorways. When you build a 405 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 4: bigger motorway, you get more traffic. Is what actually happens. 406 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 4: People think it's going to be great and you know 407 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 4: traffic what No, it's the theory of induced demand. Well 408 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 4: it applies to fridges too. As your fridge expands, you 409 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 4: just stock get and then more goes to waste, and 410 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 4: so small fridges shopping on a more frequent basis, so 411 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 4: you have to go to the store and you're actually 412 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 4: thinking about what you're going to eat for dinner. That evening, 413 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 4: rather than shopping for some distant sort of two week 414 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 4: horizon when obviously things are going to change and you're 415 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 4: not going to feel like, I don't know, spaghetti bolone 416 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 4: is when it turns out to be a sunny weekend, 417 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 4: you know. And so so a lot of those sorts 418 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 4: of things are important in people's minds. A fridge nowadays 419 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 4: is actually like a bank vault, like you put things 420 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 4: in it and they stay safe. That's not actually the case. 421 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 4: The you know, the produce is still dying. The meat, 422 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 4: the bacteria on the meat are still reproducing. It's just 423 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 4: happening more slowly. But it is not a safety vault 424 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 4: that will keep your food good forever. And so I 425 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 4: think I find keeping food out of the fridge. Not 426 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 4: milk and meat obviously, but fruit and vegetables actually reminds 427 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 4: you that it's there. It tastes better when you eat it. 428 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 4: As tomatoes, peaches, things like that should never be in 429 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 4: the fridge anyway. That knocks out their flavor producing mechanisms. 430 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 4: They will taste worse. Bread should never be in the fridge, potatoes, onions, 431 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 4: these things should never be in the fridge. So yes, 432 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 4: saving food from the fridge shopping, buying less those kinds 433 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 4: of things. One of the refrigeration experts I spoke to 434 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 4: found that she's working on a project that was using 435 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 4: urban agriculture, not to try and feed the city because 436 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 4: you can't do it at that scale, but as a 437 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 4: way to remind people, oh, right, this is living produce. 438 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 4: It is fresh when it is harvested, and it isn't 439 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 4: fresh a week later, and once you are aware of 440 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 4: the work that goes in the seasonality things like that, 441 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 4: people were wasting less food. That was what she found. 442 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 4: So growing food actually had the benefit of people wasting 443 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 4: less food. 444 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: Writing this book, did it change the way you eat? 445 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? 446 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 4: It did. I mean I was already you know, I 447 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 4: make a podcast about food science and history. I write 448 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 4: about food, so I was already a relatively conscious of 449 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 4: sort of thinking about where my food came from and 450 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 4: things like that. But and you know, knowing what's in 451 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 4: season when and such like. But absolutely it made me 452 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 4: much more aware of the fact that say you buy 453 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 4: a bag of spinach, you put it in your fridge, 454 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 4: you eat it a week later, you're patting yourself on 455 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 4: the back, thinking you did yourself. You know, a favor 456 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 4: there you had a healthy bag of spinach. You didn't 457 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 4: waste it, You got all those vitamins. No, after a 458 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 4: week in your fridge, that spinach has half the vitamins 459 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 4: and minerals it did when you first bought it. So 460 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 4: having that realization, I think seeing those statistics, it reinforced 461 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 4: the fact that it's not getting any better in the fridge. Now, 462 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 4: something's get better in the fridge. A curry left over night, 463 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 4: that gets better. But you know, as bolonnaise sauce, yes, 464 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 4: because you know, the fat and the collagen has time 465 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 4: to sort of solidify and then redisperse and it becomes silkier. 466 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 4: But fruit and vegetables, no, don't stockpile them, you know, 467 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 4: buy it and eat it. So it really has changed 468 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 4: sort of how I shop and eat. And it has 469 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 4: definitely made me focus on seasonality too, Like I just 470 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 4: don't eat apples outside of the autumn. And you know what, 471 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 4: that's great because there's other fruits you can have in 472 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 4: the summer and other fruits. I have citrus in the 473 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 4: spring and I have berries in the summer. And it's 474 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 4: annoying and obnoxious and I try not to be preachy 475 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 4: about it, but also it all tastes better, like you 476 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: really don't need to have a tomato and December it's 477 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 4: gonna taste like nothing anyway, Just don't do it. 478 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: I learned a lot from the book. Thank you, Nichola, 479 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 480 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: This is fun. 481 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. And now for the 482 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: sound of the week. That's the hum of a refrigerator. 483 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: John Klee of the band Velvet Underground calls it the 484 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: drone of Western civilization. It's so constant. He says that 485 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: the band would use its steady sixty cycle hum to 486 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: tune their instruments. That's another great piece of trivia from 487 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: nicholas book. And also check out gastropod her podcast about 488 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: How We Eat. If you liked this episode, please take 489 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: a moment to rate and review the show on Apple 490 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: Podcasts on Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or 491 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: with Joe Biden and other lovers of ice cream. You 492 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: can get in touch at zero pod at bloomberg dot net. 493 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: Zero's producer is Mighty Lee Rau. Bloomberg's head of podcast 494 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: is Sage Powman and head of Talk is Brendan newnam Our. 495 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: Theme music is composed by Wonderley Special Thanks to Kira Bendrum, 496 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: Aaron Rudkoff and Matthew Griffith. 497 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: I am Ashadrati back so