1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of It Could Happen 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Here with your guest host Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. Today, 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Mia, and I'm looking to discuss a 4 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: topic that I brought up in passing in a previous episode, 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: that being the idea of conviviality, and the episode in 6 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: question being in my podcast on the Growth. So, when 7 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: I first stumbled upon this concept of conviviality, I thought 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: it was just, you know, one of those exciting, fluffy 9 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: aged prop buzzwords, right, something you you throw into you know, 10 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: your your propaganda, your conversations, your descriptions of a better world. 11 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: You like, Oh, I would love to live in a 12 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: world it's more convivial on these different things, convivial being 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: defined in the Dictionary as the quality of being friendly 14 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: and lively. Right. Synonyms include amiability, affability, continuality, et cetera, 15 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. I didn't come here to be a thesaurus. 16 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: I came here to talk about the deeper meanings behind 17 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: these things. Right. So, in such in this world, in 18 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: this term up in more depth, I ended up going 19 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: down this rabbit hole and I discovered there's a whole 20 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: history to the term that spans I mean, I mean, 21 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: I'm not going as far back as its Latin origins, right. 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: I mean, we could talk about the French and their 23 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: loan words making their way into the English language. We 24 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: could talk about the Spanish concept of contivencia being interpreted 25 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: literally as living in the company of others, or in 26 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: one particular context, such as in Spain between the eighteenth 27 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 1: and fifteenth centuries, describing deep, peaceful co existence between different 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: religious groups. But I'm not going that far back. I'm 29 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: sticking to the history of the term, from ivan Ilich 30 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: to the de growth movement to the conviviality manifestos that 31 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: have come out of online and offline discussions, academic and 32 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: non academic discussions of this idea of conviviality. Now, I 33 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: gave a sort of a basic dictionary definition before, but 34 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: I want to go a bit deeper, Right, So what 35 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: is conviviality exactly? Conviviality is about creating a fun and 36 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: friendly atmosphere where people can come together and have a 37 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: great time. That's it in this essence, right, It's I 38 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: feel and you get when you're surrounded by lively conversations 39 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: and laughter and a sense of celebration. You know, those 40 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: moments where everyone's enjoying each other's company and it's a 41 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: real sense of camaraderie. I think using conviviality as a 42 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: barometer is really helpful in organizing situations. Right. If you're 43 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: in an environment where you are organized and where you're 44 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: doing practice and you're not picking up those convivial vibes, 45 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: it may be a sign that there's some toxicity in 46 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: the mix there. I'm not saying that the work of 47 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: activism has to be a trip to amusement park, right, 48 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be a carnival, but I think 49 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: there does need to be facilidarity to exist. I think 50 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: there should have some level of camaraderie and conviviality in 51 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: the atmosphere. So you can think of conviviality as the 52 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: spirit of hospitality and warmth. Right, It's like when you 53 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: gather with your friends or when you have those family 54 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: occasions and bring it around together. Even in work, police 55 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, when you and your workers get along really 56 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: well and you're organizing to create this union and you're 57 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: going to take down your boss. It's a fun time, right, 58 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: And so how do we get from this? You know, 59 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: sort of seemingly simple, sociable idea of living and enjoying 60 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: life in the company of others, making people feel welcome 61 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: and included. How do we move from that idea this 62 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: conviviality is a vital part of human interaction, to conviviality 63 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: in a more political context. How do we go from 64 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: just talking about social connections and adding meaning to our 65 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: lives and enjoying festivities and shift to conversations about the 66 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: social and political state of the world. Right now, Right 67 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: There's this one particular guy who's kind of responsible for this, 68 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: A guy I personally like to call the illest, that 69 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: being the one and only Australian philosopher, social critic and 70 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: Catholic priest Ivan elch Over. The course, it was nearly 71 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: eighty years of life since nineteen twenty six. This multi hyphenate, 72 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: I think that's the term where you use people who 73 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: have a lot of different titles. Right, This multi hyphenate 74 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: from Vienna, Italy had a significant impact on a bunch 75 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: of fields, you know, from education to medicines, technology to 76 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: social justice. I know his name because he came up 77 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: a lot when I was doing research on unschooling, te 78 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: school and and just the education system as a whole. 79 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: But apparently he's done a lot more than just that. 80 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: He's challenged. He's challenged conventional thinking in all sorts of fields, 81 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: and he's questioned the inherent assumptions and structures of modern society. Evans, 82 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: And I hope he doesn't mind that I call me 83 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: I Van, because I don't know if I'm pronouncing his 84 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: German name correctly, right, his German lasting correctly, So just 85 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: call him Ivan. He probably wouldn't mind, because he's dead. 86 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: But Evan's intellectual journey took him through a bunch of 87 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: different paths, right. He studied theology and philosophy and eventually 88 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: became a priest, and he lived and worked in different 89 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: parts of the world, including Latin America, where he witnessed 90 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: first hand the effects of development projects and the powerdynamics 91 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: between developed and developing nations, and those experiences deeply influenced 92 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: his critical perspective on the modern industrialized world. He also 93 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: became a very prolific author, known for his thought provoking 94 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: and often controversial writings, such as The School and Society, 95 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: which he published in nineteen seventy one. Tools for Contoviality, 96 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: published nineteen seventy three and Medical Nemesis, published in nineteen 97 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: seventy six, and in these books he challenged established institutions 98 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: and systems offered alternative visions that emphasized individual autonomy, community engagement, 99 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: and wait for it, convivial relationships, ilicious or evans critique 100 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: of education systems contributed to the development of altunative educational 101 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: approaches such as homeschooling, on schooling, and learner centered education. 102 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: His examination of the medical establishment sparked discussions on patient 103 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: empowerment and the need for a more participatory model of healthcare, 104 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: something I would like to discuss in a future episode, 105 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: though I would like to find someone in the disability 106 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: justice space to have that discussion with, because that is 107 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: an area of experiential ignorance for me. Yeah, So if 108 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: anybody has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it. But Evan's legacy, right, 109 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: it extends far beyond his lifetime, as it's clear he 110 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: has elasting impact on critical theory, on social philosophy, and 111 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: the quest for a more just and humane world. And 112 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm gassed up the guy a lot, and I'm sure 113 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: he has some flaws that someone will no doubt inform 114 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: me about and I have not read all of it. Yeah, 115 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: he does go. He did go sign the Catholic jage 116 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: barbing a priest. I s right, So I'm sure he 117 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: has his flaws. And I have not read all of 118 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: his literature. I haven't even read Medical Nemesis yet. But 119 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: in Tools of Conviviality in particular, I want to discuss 120 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: his perspective on conviviality and its role in society. Right 121 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: in the book, he expresses these deep concerns about the 122 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: negative effects of modern institutions and systems, and he argued 123 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: that they often hindered personal freedom, autonomy, and human flourishing. 124 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: He believed that many of our socialstructures had become oppressive, 125 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: as they dictated not only how we should live, learn, 126 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: and interact, but also how we saw ourselves as people. 127 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: He argued that our systems had become highly centralized, reliant 128 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: on professional expertise, and complex technologies that limited individual agency 129 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: and self determination. Now, one could be bad faith, I 130 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: suppose and say that, oh, is he saying that, you know, 131 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: Ivan was anti complex technology? Is some sort of popular 132 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: culture vastardization of Luodites or something. But his concern was 133 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: not necessarily on the technology itself and the complexity of technology, 134 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: but more so how that technology slotted into the structure 135 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: of society as a whole. Right, His concern was about 136 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: how these elite professional groups had established what he called 137 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: a rat monopoly over fundamental human activities, including health, agriculture, 138 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: home building, and learning. And this monopoly, it's monopoly is 139 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: criticized and all the technology, but the monopoly, according to Ivan, 140 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: had led to a detrimental war and subsistence that deprived 141 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: formerly pasant societies of the essential skills and know how. 142 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, like, I feel like that's a 143 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: pretty I think I think it's pretty hard to. 144 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: Like tour that line. Well, I don't know if I think. 145 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: I think like I think specifically that line of agriculture 146 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: is pretty hard to like not fought, like, not agree 147 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: with if you look at the effects that the Green 148 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: Revolution had on other people who do agriculture. Oh yeah, yeah, 149 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: I mean, and I think this goes to it, like 150 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 2: this falls in with the sort of like you know, 151 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: like the sort of social technological aspect of it. Of 152 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 2: like the fact that this was combined with this massive 153 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 2: sort of social technological push to you know, drive farmers 154 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: into debt you know, so they could afford the inputs 155 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: for this stuff, and what it did to sort of 156 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: what it did to the actual farming communities, and what 157 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 2: it did to people's livelihoods, and you know the way 158 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: that like a lot of this was just the sort 159 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: of smoke screen for like consolidation of major landowners, et cetera, 160 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: et cetera. Like I think I think he's pretty on 161 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: the right point. 162 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, For those who don't know, by the way, 163 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: the Green Revolution refers to a period of technological advance 164 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: moments and agricultural strategies that took place during the mid 165 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: twentieth century, primarily in developing countries. It aimed to increase 166 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: agricultural productivity and food production to the adoption of high 167 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: yielding crop varieties, increased use of fertilizers, pesticides, and modern 168 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: farming techniques. And the Green Revolution is basically responsible for 169 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the most damaging practices that we see 170 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: in agriculture today, right from the heavy reliance on chemical 171 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: inputs like futilizers and pesticides, which leads to you know, 172 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: soil degradation, pollution, lost by diversity, you know, the emphasis 173 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: on monocultures and replacements of traditional crop varieties of high 174 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: yielding ones. The reduced agrobi diversity and led to diseases 175 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: proliferate in between certain species, intensive farming practices that could 176 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: not be kept up with by small scale farmers, like 177 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: Mio was saying, the consolidation of land and the ability 178 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: to manage that land into these acribusiness corporations and major landowners. 179 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think it's worth emphasizing that this was 180 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 2: very explicitly seen as NATI communist thing. I mean, the 181 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: state departments, like actual explicit line was a great revolution 182 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 2: to stop a bred revolution. So like a big part 183 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: of what this was about was like stopping land reform 184 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: from happening, which right, yeah, is incredibly bleak. 185 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and now it's the dominant practice globally and it's 186 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: having detrimental impacts globally. And yeah, and and I mean 187 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: some of those blood some of them are going to 188 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: be dead very soon. Yeah, the rest of us have 189 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: to suffer the consequences story of my life, yeap, which 190 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: existence on this is right? 191 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you think that's sort of wild about it too, 192 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: is that like the countries that did land reform like 193 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 2: developed better capitalist economies and the ones who didn't. 194 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, like, yeah, yay, the better doing copless. 195 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean and like yeah, it's like they're 196 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: they're better. It turns out doing land reform actually does 197 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: help both like non capitalist and capitalist economies. But unfortunately 198 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: the green revolutionary people, the revolution people like already even 199 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: like people who care about the efficiency of capitalism, they 200 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: care about like the power of the land owning class. 201 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and I mean that I don't know if 202 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: this is a saying, but I might make it a 203 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: say in I think socialists are bets are doing copitless 204 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: and then copless. 205 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean that's the entire is this is 206 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: the entire story of China, right, It's like, yeah, like 207 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: Brush's Leninism is a really really efficient way to turn 208 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: a feudal economy into a capitalist economy. 209 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, if I was in charge of capitalism, I 210 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: was going to make sure that the people at the 211 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: bottom class brought into the system. Who will see and yeah, 212 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: propaganding education is a part of it, but also you 213 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: want to make sure they're not vulnerable to being radicalized. 214 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: The best way to do that is to ensure that 215 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: the basic needs are met. Yeah, but you know, even 216 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: arguing that will have some people, uh, misinformed, I would say, 217 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: but well intentioned labeling you a socialist, like I think 218 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: people should have good things. Oh you're dirty red comedy you. 219 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: But you know it's it's just well, it's just literally 220 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: wealthier capitalism. But apparently that too much for a lot 221 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: of capitalists. Apparently, I mean literally the reason we have 222 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: welfare capitalism is because socialists forward for it in early 223 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: twentieth century and early to mid twentieth century. So you know, 224 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: we have socialist to thank for everything basically. But I'm 225 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: getting off track, right, So, like I was saying, this monopoly, 226 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: this radical monopoly over fundamental human activities, that's a detrimental 227 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: war and subsistence that are deprived peasant societies of the 228 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: essential skills and know how, instead of promoting human flourishing, 229 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: all this economic development ended up feeding into what Yvan 230 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: has termed modernized poverty. And it's something I think about often, Right, 231 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: this idea of the poor back then versus the poor now. Right, 232 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: And of course it depends on which society you're talking about, 233 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: which time period you're talking about, But let's just pick 234 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: some random like historic poor person. Right, let's just say, 235 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: I don't know generic civilization. A. This person is poor, right, 236 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: they after work, they have to work the land backbreaking toil. 237 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes raiders would roll it and be like, oh, we're 238 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: going to take your stuff now, and then they would 239 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: like ride their horses away and probably I don't know, 240 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: dab on you or whatever, or the raiders will roll in, 241 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: they'll take your stuff and then they'll be like, oh, 242 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: I want to stay. And then now you have to 243 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: pay taxes to me every year. And you know, that's 244 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: how a lot of states were created. But whether it's 245 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, nomadic warlords or settled warlords, at least you 246 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: had a house, at least you had a community. At 247 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: least you had the ability to grow your own food, 248 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: even though a lot of that food was being taxed. 249 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: And you know, at least you had certain skills that 250 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: you could use to sustain yourself. Right. Compare that to 251 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: modern poverty, where you have this large swath of people 252 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: who are dependent, who are mechanical parts in a system 253 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: that they cannot fully understand, comprehend and control for themselves. 254 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: With this, you know, whole industrial revolution where you take 255 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: this process of making a chair, for example, and you 256 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: break it up into a bunch of different steps, and 257 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: each person that step you knows how to do one thing, 258 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: but they don't have to do the entire thing. Right 259 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: Like the poor today versus the poor of yesteryear, the 260 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: latter still had these skills for subsistence, and many of 261 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: today is poor, particularly the urban poor. Because I know 262 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: the rural poor, a lot of them still sustain themselves, 263 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: still practice you know, sustem, subsistence farm and that kind 264 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: of thing, but particularly the urban poor, they don't even 265 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: have like a lot of those skills to rely on 266 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: even sustain themselves in that level. For the urbanists in 267 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: the audience, you might appreciate the Devan also talks about 268 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: the dominance of cars and how they've created this radical 269 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: monopoly over land sitting out urban environments into the domain 270 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: of cars, which not only compromises the environment for pedestrians 271 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: and cyclists, but also disrupts our innate mobility as human beings. 272 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: Steven takes it a step further right. And this particular 273 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: opinion opinion of his is a bit shaky for me, 274 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: so something I've been lettin stewing my brain a little 275 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: bit more. But let me just read the quote the 276 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: radical monopoly cars established is destructive in a special way. 277 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: Cars create distance, speedy vehicles of all kinds, frendous scarce. 278 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: They drive wedges of highways into populated areas and the 279 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: next door tolls on the bridge over the remoteness between 280 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: people that was manufactured for their sake. This monopoly overland 281 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: turn space into car fodder. It destroys the environment for 282 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: feet and bicycles. Even if polices and buses could run 283 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: as non pollutant, Even if planes and buses could run 284 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: as non pollutant, non deplete and public services they're inhuman velocities, 285 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: would degrademans in need mobility and force him to spend 286 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: more time for the sake of travel. I'm sure he 287 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: could pick up on why that particular opinion is a 288 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: bit shaky, right, Yeah, it's not just anti car. He's 289 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: also a bit anti plane and bus. 290 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: To be fair, I'm also anti bus. But like planes, 291 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: I don't know, like, are they great for the environment? No? 292 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: Do you sometimes need to go to another continent? 293 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, So he is a He probably 294 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: reads like r slash f cars and he's like, uh, y'all, 295 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: don't take it far. You know you guys are liberals. 296 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, so I highly recommend reading the actual book 297 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: and full for further insight and context. And I do 298 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: want to dig into his thoughts on a food in 299 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: the future, but you know, food for thought. Let me 300 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: know what you think of those inhuman velocities. But anyway, 301 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: memes aside, I think the benefit of Evan's critique of 302 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: the radical monopoly is that it provides a different perspective, right. 303 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: It sheds light on the negative consequences of excessive specialization, 304 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: technocratic control, and the prioritization of speed and efficiency over 305 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: human well being. Zoeb on YouTube actually has a really 306 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: great video and the idea of efficiency as this ultimate 307 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: moral good, So I recommend checking that out, especially since 308 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: the standard narrative that we are utterly bombarded by is 309 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: that all these things are uncontroversially good. Right. What I 310 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: appreciate about Yvan and his ideas is that they challenge 311 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: us to reconsider our relationship with systems, tools, and institutions, 312 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: and he encourages us to strive for more balanced and 313 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: confivial society. And what does that convivial society look like 314 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: to him? Well, let's continue Ivan's solution argues for the 315 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: developments of new, accessible and user friendly instruments that would 316 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: allow average citizens to regain practical knowledge and reclaim control 317 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: over their lives, as well as resist the domination of 318 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: specialized elites. That's why Ivan Ilich's book Tools for Conviviality 319 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: is sponsored by Skills. All right, I know that was 320 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: a bad joke. Yvan believed that society should be organized 321 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: to serve the needs and aspirations of individuals, rather than 322 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 1: creating systems that limit their potential and autronomy. And so 323 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: for Yvan conviviality. Here we are back to the original topic. 324 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: Conviviality represented a society in which individuals had the power 325 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: to shape their own lives, free from excessor dependence on 326 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: institutionalized systems. He envisioned a world people had access to 327 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: convivial tools, simple, user friendly technologies that empowered them to 328 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: take control of their own destinies. For example, the dominant 329 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: education system separates learners from the real world and disempowers them. 330 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: Ivan advocates for more self directed and community based education, 331 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: where people could pursue knowledge and skills according to their 332 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: own interests and needs. Yvan also critiques the overreliance on 333 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: medical professionals and call for a shift towards a more 334 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: participatory model of healthcare that gives individuals access to information 335 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: and resources that allow them to actively participate in their 336 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: own health decisions rather than be in these passive recipients 337 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: of medical interventions. In transportation systems, he also advocates for 338 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: more human skill and community oriented transportation alternatives. He envisions 339 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: neighborhoods designed for walking and biking, which would foster social 340 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: interactions and reduce the environmental impact of excessive motorized transport. 341 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: In essence, Evan viewed Forviality as a transformative concept that 342 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: aimed to restore individual agency and personal connections and a 343 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: sense of empowerment in society. He challenged the prevalance structures 344 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: and systems that limited human potential and proposed more participatory, 345 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: community driven alternatives, and to this day, his ideas continue 346 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: to inspire discussions on how we can create a convivial 347 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: society that values human relationships, self determination, and a shared 348 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: responsibility for shaping our own lives. What I found particularly 349 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: interesting in researching this was learning that the book's vision 350 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: of tools that would be developed maintained by a community 351 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: of users that actually had significant influence on the first 352 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: developers the personal computer mind blowing. I know, most notably 353 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: one of the create first developers of the PC, Lee 354 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: Felt Felsenstein. Lee Felsenstein, He and several others were just 355 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: were inspired by this idea within the book, because we 356 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 1: remember Ivana's righting this before the internet, and they go 357 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: and they take this idea, and then they make the 358 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: internet or they make the personal computer, because computers existed 359 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: prior to the personal computer, but they weren't as accessible, 360 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: they weren't a tool of conviviality, whereas the personal computer 361 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: of today is. And I just think that's beautiful and amazing. 362 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: But Ivan's ideas did more than just you know, shape 363 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: the course of human history. He also would shaped the 364 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: creation of confiviulist movement. In twenty ten, eight years after 365 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: Ivan died, and thirty seven years after Ivan published Tools 366 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: for Conviviality, Raymond de Boiver published Convivialism, a philosophical Manifesto, 367 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: and in it, Barvert begins by discussing the key theme 368 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: in Michael Polland's books The Botany of Desire, which is 369 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: a great read, by the way, and the Omnivars Dilemma, 370 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: which I haven't read yet, but the key theme is 371 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: co evolution, right. The first book humorously suggests that plants 372 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: manipulate humans to coevolve, with them taking care of their 373 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: needs and exchange for nutrition or beauty, and the second book, 374 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: the Omnivoice Dilemma, the importance of interconnected components for vibrant 375 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: pharm is emphasized, corn serving as an example of a 376 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: plant that relies on humans for survival. WaveRT proposes that 377 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: focusing on the prefix co in co evolution could have 378 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: philosophical implications similar to William James's emphasis on the preposition 379 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: with by you know. Examining the significance of these prepositions co, 380 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: com con or coal as well as sin, the author 381 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: argues for a philosophy that recognizes omnipresent interconnection. Michael Polland's 382 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: books do this well in the context of food, but 383 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: Waver wants to take this The implications of this uh 384 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: taken preposition seriously into a rearrange ing the philosophy itself, 385 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: and now we're getting, you know, kind of heavy, right. 386 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: As Quavert argues, philosophers have often neglected the significance of 387 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: interconnected relationships, while farmers recognize the importance of interconnectedness, you know, 388 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 1: how things like land and water and stuff all work together. 389 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: Modern philosophy, on the other hand, according to Bovair, since 390 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: the Renaissance, has been focused on these self standing and 391 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: independent entities, not interconnected entities. And I don't know how 392 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: true this is because I'm not I didn't study philosophy. 393 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: I'm just communicating Barveao's arguments here, right. And so the 394 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: idea of autonomy in modern philosophy, according to barve seem 395 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,239 Speaker 1: to exclude the with factor and existence, relegating relations and 396 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: interconnections to a secondary rule. So Whatver is saying is 397 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: that philosophy is sort on this foundation that we are 398 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: autonomous and self sufficient first, right, and then everything else 399 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: comes after. You know. Rousseau, for example, portrayed an idyllic 400 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: existence where connections, independencies of views as these impositions. You know, 401 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: we went from being autonomous to being stuck in this 402 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: web of interdependencies, and then as a result coming down 403 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: to that the philosophical idea of liberation, uh for some 404 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: ended up returning for some meant to return into this 405 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: original state of authenticity and disengagement from connections. The concept 406 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: of freedom itself became something that was anti interdependency, and 407 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: so the focus shifted away from this idea of humans 408 00:28:52,720 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: being inherently interdependent. But then this alternative point of view 409 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: came about, right, and this shift coincided with the introduction 410 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: of the terms symbiosis and biology, which combined the Greek 411 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: word for life with the preposition with and the concept 412 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: of symbiosis found its way eventually into everyday language and discourse. 413 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: So that's the Greek term symbiosis. Then we go to 414 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: the Latin term conviviality, meaning with living, and that long 415 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: predated you know, science and philosophy used to describe just 416 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: ordinary experiences. And so to avoid getting lost into the 417 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: philosopher's favorite past time of you know, navigating various words 418 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: and all their package to boil a downed simplicity, Boivert 419 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: is seeking to ask what a conviviulous turn in philosophy 420 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: might look like and what changes in philosophy might be 421 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: taken place. For one, he's concerned with how embracing trivialism 422 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: might change our understanding of metaphysics right by embracing this 423 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: metaphors of existence as about the relation and conjunction between 424 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: components or the interplane interconnectedness of various elements, rather than 425 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: about a collection of separate units. You end up going 426 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: from this position of isolation to this position of profound interrelation, 427 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: and then you begin to focus on the interactions between 428 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: people rather than just the uh experiences within people. In 429 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: the sphere of philosophical anthropology, while Fare argues that a 430 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: convivial ton would mean redefined in humanity, you know, taking 431 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: this concept that you know, we're not just these purely 432 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: logical and calculating beings. We are homo sapiens. And the 433 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: term sapiens is derived from the Latin word for tasting, 434 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: which highlights the human capacity to constantly try and test, 435 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: to constantly experiments, to actually participate in interactions with our surroundings. 436 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: So in this convivial turn, we return to the original 437 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: definition of for me, and we gave ourselves right as 438 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: taste does, as flexible, educable, subject to investigation and improvement, 439 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: constantly testing and experiment and then seeing what is best 440 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: in specific contexts. Seeing that taste as sapiens, as homo sapiens, 441 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: taste is inherently pluralistic, because there is no universe your 442 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: cell taste, There is no single taste that is like, oh, 443 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: this is the taste. Everybody must have care to this taste. 444 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: Everybody has a different taste. We talk about that when 445 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: we talk about taste, and I think the implications are 446 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: particularly profound when we bring it into the preferative this 447 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: sphy of prefrigative politics. Right whereas tasters as experimenters, we 448 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: are looking for ways to prefigure new social relations and 449 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: institutions and relationships and structures and systems for the future 450 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: in the here now, and that requires tastes, and that 451 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: requires experimentation. That requires an acceptance of pluralism because everyone 452 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: has a different taste and everyone's going to bring something 453 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: different to the table. That's beautiful. And then, also in 454 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: the field of epistemology, the conribulists perspective challenges the opposition 455 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: between subject and object and understand reality. Rejects the idea 456 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: of the mind as a mere mirror reflects in reality 457 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: or project to impotant conceptual schemes onto reality. Because confivialism 458 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: is about how the intermediaries, the facility to interactions, how 459 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: they affect the way that we perceive and reflect on 460 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: reality itself. It also requires us to let go of 461 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: this subject object dichotomy in our pursuit of knowledge and understanding, 462 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: which itself has implications on even the field of science, 463 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: because you know, the idea of the scientists and the 464 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: popular imagination is you know the subject who is whatever 465 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: that scientist is studying, that is the But convivialism causes 466 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: suppose and reflect on how that subject, that object, and 467 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,399 Speaker 1: how intermediary is between them affect their perception of each other, 468 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: affect the subject, the scientist's ability to pursue knowledge and 469 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: understanding affects the objects if the object is a person 470 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: to do the same. And finally, Baver digs into the 471 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: rigid division between nature and culture and how the convivialist 472 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: perspective challenges that the continuous interactions and transformations that occur 473 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: in existence makes it problematic to consider the divisions between 474 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: human societies, between human societies and the ecosystems that surround 475 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:02,760 Speaker 1: them as fundamental aspects of existence. Right, the boundary between 476 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: nature and culture is one that constantly blues. It is 477 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: difficult to place, particularly when there's an embrace by certain 478 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: cultures of that interconnectedness and interdependence between their culture and 479 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: the nature that surrounds them. And then when you see 480 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: that blurring of lines between culture and nature, you might 481 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: also recognize a blurring of lines between human and non human. 482 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: In the context of community, the idea of community being 483 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: an exclusively human domain becomes less apt, I suppose, as 484 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: it recognize the way that non humans influence and effect 485 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: and engage and interact with humans in this you know, collectivity. 486 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 1: We use terms like commun unity and city and society 487 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: and stuff to refer to the human aspects of interaction, 488 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: and we use things like ecosystem and biome to emphasize 489 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: non human aspects of interaction. But the interactions between humans, animals, plants, 490 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: and inanimate entity is to not always thought so neatly 491 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: into that metaphysical description of reality. Of course, we use 492 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: these divisions for certain specific research purposes. We say, oh, 493 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: I'm a sociologist, dom an anthropologists, I'm a biologist, and ecologists, etc. 494 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: But we can't forget that convivialism. Conviviality asks us not 495 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:51,280 Speaker 1: to forget that those are human impositions that we should 496 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: not let obscure our ability to make sense of reality 497 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 1: as a whole. I know, things got really heavy there. 498 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: I hope that everything I said made sense and if 499 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: you need a breather or some time to pause and 500 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: reflect further on the implications on this simple, cute fun 501 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: to say a little Latin word, conviviality. We're going to 502 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: take a pause here, but next time you can join 503 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: us as we discuss how people have gone from this 504 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: term to urge his ideas two Jave's philosophical indications to 505 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: more recent manifestos of the convivial movement and how they 506 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: can relate to the growth and beyond. You can find 507 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: me on YouTube dot com slash andeurism, and you can 508 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: support you on peaton dot com slash Saint True once 509 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: again Montrue joined by Mio and this is It could 510 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: Happen Here, Peace. It could Happen Here as a production 511 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. 512 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 513 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 514 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 515 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 2: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 516 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com Slash sources. 517 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,