WEBVTT - Thom Hartmann 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.400 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.800 My guest today is progressive talk show host Tom Hartman, 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.800 who reaches seven million people a week. Tom, so great 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.400 to have you on the podcast. Great to be here 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.599 with you, Bob, Thank you for inviting me. Okay, you 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.040 talk to people all over the country every day, and 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:35.000 you even reach some foreign countries with your program. What's 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:39.480 the temperature of the country. Wow, that's a tough one. 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:44.280 I think that there's a uh, it's it's kind of 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:49.360 a confluence or a mixture of great dread and great hope. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:55.840 I'm I'm seeing um and you know, given this is uh, 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.400 my biased perspective on things, but it certainly seems to 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.480 me that the GOP and the conservatives in the country 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.679 are doubling down on basically fear and and you know, 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.000 fear of other fear of immigrants, fear of black people, 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.040 fear of gay people, etcetera. UM, and and hate that 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.720 that is so often associated with fear at the same time, 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:21.160 and trying to block democrats from having any successes legislatively. 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.280 At the same time, we have, for the first time 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.240 in my lifetime, or at least not not in my lifetime, 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:28.920 but at least in the last forty years, we have 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:33.080 a president who is openly rejecting neoliberalism, and I think 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.559 that's a huge and important thing. Um that President Biden 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.240 is is calling out trickle down economics or economics, whatever 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.319 you wanna call it, and the damage that it's done, 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.720 the fifty fifty trillion dollar transfer of wealth from the 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.880 middle last to the top one over the last forty years, 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:55.640 the loss of sixty factories overseas. I mean, you know, so, 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:57.560 I think there's a lot of hope that things can 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:02.480 be done to put this country back together. Um, it's 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.480 it's a it's an extraordinary time, uh, you know, a 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.239 time of great conflict and great potential. Okay, what we 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.600 learned in two sixteen is I hate you words use 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.080 the word elite because it's now become a pejorative. But 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:22.840 the elite news media, the New York Times, the Polsters 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.800 were completely out of touch with the sentiment of the country. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.919 And in addition, people tend to live in their own bubbles. 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:36.919 Someone like you talks to people from both sides. So 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.400 the question becomes are the Republicans those on the right 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:46.080 just more vocal or how strong are their numbers. I 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:55.040 think that the the the hardcore uh conservatives within the 0:02:55.080 --> 0:03:00.079 Republican Party are are probably a relatively small percent of 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.400 our population. What they have going for them that the 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.880 Democrats don't have is that over the last forty fifty years, 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:14.320 they have built out a massive media infrastructure. Um, you know, 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.160 Ruper Murdock and Fox News. Of course, you've got a 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:21.040 billionaire with a billion dollar, multibillion dollar company that reaches 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.720 millions and millions of people every day. Um, you've got 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.480 fifteen hundred right wing radio stations in the country. There 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.680 are now some three hundred Spanish language right wing radio 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:33.240 stations in the country doing Spanish language versions of Rush 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:39.200 Limbaugh as it were. Um. There are literally thousands of 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:44.280 conservative publications on the internet, in many cases hundreds of 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.600 them each coming from you know, single companies and individuals. 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:53.000 Um A. You know. The simple fact is, if if 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.840 you're a billionaire and you're interested in not paying taxes 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.040 and you want to you know, hang onto your wealth 0:03:58.080 --> 0:03:59.680 and all that sort of thing, and you and you 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:05.240 don't your company to be facing consumer regulations or environmental regulations, um, 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.240 you know, going to the right or supporting the Republican 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.280 Party you're supporting this kind of stuff makes sense, it's 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:14.040 an investment. Um. And so there's uh, you know, and 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:15.960 and going back to the early days of Charles and 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:21.920 David Coke, there has become this really large network of 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.839 right wing funders for things that that amplify these voices. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.880 So I think that the the appearance of right wing 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:32.599 is um as it were, in the United States is 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:37.680 probably larger than the actual existence of it among average people. UM. 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.960 But that's not to diminish its impact on our politics 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.880 or on our nation. Um. On the left wing. You know, 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:46.960 it's it's a whole kind of different thing. It's you know, 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:48.760 there's not a whole lot of billionaires out there who 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.040 are saying, yeah, tax me moore um. And although there 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.520 are a few, and God bless them, but you know 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.880 that's my sense of Okay. So, and I hear from 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.719 these people all the time to say we have the guns. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.400 Just wait. Yeah. So the question becomes and really it's 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.280 centered around Trump over we can say that he tapped 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:17.120 into something in America. Is this something we must fear 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:22.200 not only a vocal right, but an active right. Trump 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:27.400 said last week that, uh, if he is penalized legally, 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.000 you better watch out as people are gonna be angry. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.400 Is that a paper tiger? Is that real? I think 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:37.640 it's both. Um, there's you know, a small number of 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.560 people who have a large number of guns. Um, when 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.760 you start looking at people on two or three more 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.880 more than two or three guns, the number becomes very small. 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:48.560 But the number of guns some of them on is 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:54.640 you know, like, uh, I get it that there has 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.560 been a stirring of the militia movement over the last 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.640 a few decades. When Tim they blew up in Oklahoma City, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:03.640 it was supposed to be a call to arms to 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.200 these folks. He was running off the Turner Diary, which 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.279 continues to inspire that movement. The Turner Diaries is a 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:18.880 book in which a patriot blows up the federal building. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.040 In this case, I believe it was the FBI building 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:22.880 in the book, as I recall, it's been a couple 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.640 of decades since I read it. And in response to that, 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:31.159 the government clamps down on gun ownership and on the 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.719 right wing movement. And in response to that, the good 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:39.040 white patriots rise up and and and there's a civil war, 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:40.920 and they kill all the black people and all the 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.960 Jews and you know, everybody that the right likes to 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.360 hate on. And in the end, you know that it's 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.760 now a white Christian country and they're standing there in 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.560 the in the in the in the blood and the Mud. 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:57.679 But they've rescued their nation and that and campus Saints, 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:02.640 this French book you have become the Bibles of this movement. Um. 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.560 Like I said, Tim McVeigh thought everybody was going to 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.080 jump in behind him. He badly miscalculated the time. And 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.440 in fact, for the next decade the militia movement really 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:18.760 took a hit because it was associated with Tim McVeagh. So, um, 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.559 then you know, after nine eleven it started, they started 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.320 getting their mojo back. There was a common enemy, uh, 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:31.520 you know, Muslims and brown people and foreigners, and uh, 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.200 that was a huge opportunity for the white racist, the 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.080 white supremacists to jump in and say, now we're the 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.520 ones who will save America, where the patriots will take 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.960 care of this. We're going to arm ourselves. And the 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.000 Bush administration kind of looked the other way, even though 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:50.360 their FBI came up with this extraordinary report in two 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.520 thousand eight on the right wing hate movement in the 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.680 United States and how dangerous it was becoming when that 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.560 report was issued in the first months of the Obama administration, 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:05.240 you recall by the FBI after they had issued during 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.800 the last year the Bush administration a similar report on 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.520 left wing through the Dangers of the left wing Extremism. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.840 But when the one on the right wing extremism came out, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:18.200 it's so inflamed the right and the Republican Party that 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:22.080 Obama pulled the report. Um so we've been kind of 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.920 flying in the dark, and I think it's just in 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.600 you know, basically since January six that the government you know, 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.240 certainly during the during the Trump years, there was no 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.280 support for anybody in the government who would be seriously 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:39.600 looking into this. The FBI had backed off, and uh so, 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.319 I think it's just really been the last year and 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.280 a half that our federal government is starting to take 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.640 seriously this this threat to America. Whether it's the kind 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.280 of threat that we should all be worried about, or 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:52.480 whether it's just the kind of threat that people like 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.480 you and I in the media, politicians, people the high 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.680 profile people need to worry about. I don't honestly know. 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.240 In the last the last killing in the media was 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.280 the America's number one progressive talk show house back in 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.440 the eighties. I believe it was Allen Burg, you know, 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.840 who was gunned down by a couple of skinheads in 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.480 the parking lot of his radio station in Denver. As 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.720 I recall, they made a movie about it called Talk Radio. 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:23.320 Whether you know that kind of stochastic terrorism is going 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.599 to happen again, I think that that's what Trump is 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:30.040 trying to encourage his calls to arms. I'm certainly hearing 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.200 a lot of rhetoric that sounds not just from Trump, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.040 but particularly from Trump, that sounds like an open encouragement 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.320 of stochastic terrorism, of lone wolf terrorism. Um. But whether 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.520 it's going to materialize, and I mean obviously it already 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.280 is in many areas in many places, Whether it's going 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.560 to materialize in a way that you might call a 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.360 civil war, that you might call a you know, a 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.760 civil disturbance, I still think it's a very open question. 0:09:55.800 --> 0:10:02.080 But Okay, So, since there's been an ongoing analysis of 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.280 who really is making up the Republican Party, let me 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.600 go a little bit further. Yes, rich people who don't 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.559 want to pay taxes have historically been Republicans, not all 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.040 of them, but a great number of them. But at 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:19.600 first when Trump won, there was the belief that it 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.960 was the dispossessed and the disadvantage who had moved to 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:28.680 Republican Party from Democratic Party. Then the word came out, no, really, 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.679 it was people with money, and the analysis of January 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:37.440 six was no, these were middle and upper middle class people. 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.120 They had means. Then we have St. Louis, the people 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:45.400 with the guns on their on their porch during the march. 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.719 Needless to say, they were notorious litigants, but they were 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.400 also upper middle class. Who is really in control? Is 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.960 this a lower class movement or a middle upper class movement? 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.680 By movement you're talking about the GOP are you talking 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:07.880 about Yeah, well, you know there's the like you said, 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.199 the natural constituents of the very the more midley rich, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.760 as I refer to them, um, you know, who want 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.880 to just stuff their money bens um who I think 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.840 you know, some of whom are probably suffering from the 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:25.079 mental illness O c D, A variety of O c 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.640 D that's called hoarding syndrome. You know, had had they 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:31.839 not been born um generally white and upper middle class 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.760 or even wealthy, uh, they might be living in an 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:39.439 apartment that's Florida ceiling newspapers and tin cans. Um, so 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:44.120 you've got that constituency. The Republican Party has done a 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.280 good job over the last forty years since Reagan, um 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.439 of branding itself Reagan, you know, on his horse and 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.680 all that sort of thing. Really Um, the you know, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.400 bringing in Nascar and and and these kinds of of 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:01.400 totems almost for the Republican Party. Um, you know that 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.920 was that was the Democratic Party's brand in the fifties, 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:09.600 sixties and seventies, I would argue, Um, so you've got 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.560 a lot of kind of Joe six pack types across 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.120 the country. Part of that, I think is also the 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.840 fact that in most states in the United States there 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.319 literally is not a single radio station carrying progressive talk radio. 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.120 You have to get it off serious six and and 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.120 yet there is not a single part of the United 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.840 States where there's not at least one and typically two 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.760 or more radio stations carrying right wing talk radio. So 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.600 there's this is some hobby horse of mine for years, 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.679 and it sounds self interested, but um, it's really not that. 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.160 I think the Democratic Party has ignored this media disparity 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.760 for years to their disadvantage. And you know, when we 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.600 were on air, America Are America was carried on on 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.480 fifty four Clear Channel stations, and then Mitt Romney's company 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.360 took over Clear Channel, and suddenly Clear Channels ations of 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.920 dropping their America left and right until to the point 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:08.120 where America couldn't sustain itself any longer. UM. You know, 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:14.040 so there's that UM I mentioned earlier. Now there's these 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.240 Spanish language right wing stations there. There there's an aggressive outreach. 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.760 Ralph Reed's group, Americans for Faith and Freedom I think 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:26.000 it's called UM just today announced that they're spending over 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.960 fifty million dollars reaching out to Hispanics, specifically on the 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:35.480 issues of hating on gay people and on abortion because 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.800 so many Hispanics are Catholic that that's a natural topic 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:44.080 for them to flip them Republican. So uh. On the 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:45.880 other hand, I think on the on the Democratic side, 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:48.360 you're seeing you know, the growth of both Union movement, 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.719 you know, among young people, people under thirty, there's a 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.199 huge take up of the Democrats. But but it seems 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:59.640 to me like the Republican movement UM does not largely 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.040 clue the people we were talking about a moment ago. 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:07.440 You know, the militia movement types. Um, although you know 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.679 Trump is embracing them, I'm not sure that most other 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.360 Republicans are. I'm not sure if that's if that was 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.960 what you were asking, Bob. I think that I think 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.280 that ultimately covered enough. Let me go to the next topic. 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.120 You happen to mention Reagan. You and me live through 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.240 that era, and there was a conscious effort by the 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:32.160 Republicans to lionize him, canonize, rename everything he is God. 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.800 Now recently we've seen something, you know, it's nowhere near 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.840 the size of the effort to do the same thing 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:46.040 with Obama. And there's certainly nothing inherently wrong with Obama, 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.080 and he got the A C A past. But this 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.600 was a guy who was trying to compromise with a 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.800 party that did not want to compromise. And I think 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.720 that some Democrats are lost in the pass. What is 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:05.200 your view about the Obama administration in those years. Well, 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.240 first of all, with regard to the Legacy project, the 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.080 Reagan Legacy Project was well funded. I mean, you know 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.680 a number of very very wealthy people stepped up. Their 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.000 goal was to have a building named after Reagan or 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.480 a statue made to him in every county in the 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.880 United States, uh, Andy, in every country in the world. 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.040 And they've met that goal. Um from re rate you know, 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.960 renaming Washington's National Airport to you know, putting statutes and 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.120 all of the place, renaming buildings, um to the best 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.080 finaledge is not something comparable around Obama. There there may 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.080 be an effort to promote him as a as a 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.280 great president or something like that, but I'm sorry, we've 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:51.600 got f fifteen or firty fives or whatever they know. 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.320 But there's been a lot of that going on. These 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.640 military jets have really picked up in the last a 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.560 few months. I have a feeling that has something to 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.440 do with what's going on overseas. In any case, UM, 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.520 my sense of the Obama presidency was that he was 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.800 um so sensitive to being called the angry black man 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:14.160 that he was very averse to any kind of conflict. 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.400 And as a consequence of that, you know, a lot 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.120 of things that should have been called out never did 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.240 get called out. And like you said, you know, he 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.720 was constantly trying to compromise with Republicans. Um. He also 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.120 was unwilling to to reverse or call out neoliberalism, and 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:32.360 you know, which I think was a great tragedy because 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:34.320 I think certainly by the time that he was re 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:38.400 elected in America was getting very close to this tipping 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.200 point where uh, we were ready as a society after 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.400 after almost forty years of the Reagan experiment, of the 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:49.760 neoliberal experiment, to reject it. And and frankly, I think 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.840 that's what put one of the things, along with the 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:53.600 little help from Russia to put Trump at the White 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.800 House in was that he explicitly campaigned against neo liberalism. 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.280 Trump's Trump was lying through his teeth on most of 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:01.880 these things, you know, saying he was going to raise 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.359 taxes so much that he'd get a nose bleeding his 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.080 friends who refused to talk to him. That he was 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:07.919 going to bring back union labor, that he was going 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.200 to have a healthcare program that gave everybody in the 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.560 country better healthcare than they've got right now for free 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.639 or for very little costs. That he was going to 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.280 make college affordable again, That he was going to help 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.600 support union activity. That he was going to bring back 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.080 our jobs to overseas. Every single one of those things 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.919 were absolute wise, but people bought them in. And you know, 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:32.480 because Trump basically appropriated much of Bernie Sanders message. Had 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:36.080 Obama done that four or eight years earlier, I don't 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:37.840 know if he would have had success or if the 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.800 country wasn't quite cooked enough. You know, I hadn't seen 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.000 the results of liberalism enough to to go along with 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.600 the repudiation of it. And uh, and the issue of race, 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.000 you know, complicated. A tremendous President Obama. I think he's 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.600 a good person, a good and decent man, and I 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.600 have a tremendous respect for him. Um. You know, I 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.200 was there at his inauguration, in fact, just about fifty 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.840 feet away from him when he was sworn in. It 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.639 was a great honor, and uh, you know, visited the 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.960 White House afterwards. But I really think that Joe Biden 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:11.359 is going to be the guy who goes down in 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.080 history as the as the person who finally turned us 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.880 away from the direction we've been going in the last 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.679 forty years. Okay, for the uninformed, can you give us 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:26.919 a brief definition of neoliberals. Yeah, neoliberalism. First of all, 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.720 the word liberal is means a different thing in Europe 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:30.960 than it does in the United States. Here in the 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.879 United States, it means what we might call progressive in Europe. 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.800 Liberal means what you might call conservative here or even 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:42.720 libertarian neil or liberal economics in Europe is leslie ferrets. 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.000 You know, hands off government, hands off, low taxes, no regulation, 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.359 no labor unions, no no, basically no government support of 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.159 anything other than you know, the courts, the army and 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.000 the police. And so in the in the forties, a 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:02.200 group of economists, including one American Milton Friedman, led by 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:07.199 ludrig O Nisus and Frederick Hayak, got together in Switzerland 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.840 and thought, you know, they were trying to figure out 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.960 how to how to harden the democracies of Europe and 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.199 the United States all around the world, but particularly the 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.800 democracies of Europe, so that they would never again either 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.600 flip communists like Russia had done with the Soviet Union, 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:31.080 or flip uh fascists like Germany, Italy and Spain had done. 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.800 And being economists, they kind of fulfilled the old Abe 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.520 Maslow quote. You know, he said the famously said that 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.400 when the only tool you have as a hammer, every 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.680 problem in the world looks like a nail. Um. They 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.520 figured that economics would solve all things, and so they 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.199 came up with this idea of the new liberalism, the 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.960 neo liberalism, and basically here are the major bullet points 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.360 for it. Number one, that the market should be the 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.240 ultimate decider of basically everything. That is a billion decisions 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.840 being made in the marketplace every moment of every day. 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.680 As we're speaking right now, Bob, there's probably a thousand 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.200 people who are trying to decide which brand of orange 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.320 juice to buy. All those all that data, all that activity, 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.760 UM is something that is so far beyond the ability 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.960 of any politician or bureaucrat to understand or have or 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.600 know that they could. You can never you can never 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.280 replicate it. So therefore the market has the wisdom and 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:32.120 the market should be making the decisions number one. Number two, 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:36.080 because of that, a government regulation, which is an interference 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.840 in the marketplace, should be absolutely minimized to the point 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:46.560 of virtual irrelevance. UM. Deregulation is a massive part of neoliberalism. 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:48.560 One of the reasons that Reagan tried to gut the 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.840 Environmental Protection Agency by putting Neo Corsus just mother in 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:53.800 charge of it. I mean, she ended up in a 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:58.240 terrible scandal I think involved bribery or something like that. UM. 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.000 But you know going after that. Another is that labor 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:05.960 unions are an interference in the marketplace, inappropriate interference in 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.240 the marketplace, and therefore labor unions should be basically turned 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.560 into social clubs. Another is that corporations should be able 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:17.040 to seek the cheapest labor anywhere in the world rather 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.560 than just anywhere in the country, and therefore we should 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.840 not have national borders when it comes to the ability 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.040 of corporations to do that sort of thing, which is 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.000 generally known as free trade, so called free trade. Another 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.520 is the social safety net programs, medicare, social security, unemployment benefits, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.920 that these are all interferences in the free market and 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.280 distortions of the free market, and therefore we should do 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.280 away with the social safety net. Another is that any 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.440 any function the government is doing outside of the military, 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.600 and even the military and police functions and court functions, 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.520 even those should be privatized the extent they can, which 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.639 is why today half of our defense budget goes to 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:59.600 private corporations. Privatize everything you can. Another is that monopolies 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:04.280 uh in business and that massive wealth inequality are actually 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.440 symptoms of an economy that's working the way it should. 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.440 They are signs that those who have made it through 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.800 the Darwinian process in the marketplace and proven their worth, 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:18.679 their brilliance, their competence, are succeeding. They should be congratulated. 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.600 And then the corollary to that is that taxes should 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:24.720 be very very low on those who are the winners, 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.639 the ones who have succeeded. And this is why today 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:30.080 the average billionaire in America is paying about three percent 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.880 income taxes, and you know, by half of your major 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.240 corporations in America paying nothing in taxes. These are all 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.920 the symptoms of forty years of Reagan and neoliberalism he 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.760 adopted that they started selling in the fifties. The major 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.200 sales person in the United States is Milton Friedman Um. 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:49.640 And Reagan was the guy in eighty one who basically 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:53.280 said we're going to reject Kanzie economics, Adams Smith economics, 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.040 and uh and we're going to go with with Milton 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:07.800 Freeman's neoliberalism. Okay, let's focus on one specific element, which 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:12.760 is globalization. Certainly under Clinton, that train left the station. 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:15.879 So what do we know. There's been proven time and 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:22.280 again that Americans are cheap. Okay, they'll buy the ticket 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.920 on Spirit airlines with no perks, and they'll run to 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.320 gain on the plane and they'll fight to put the 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:30.760 stuff on the top, and then they'll bitch about it. 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.919 Or certainly there are add ons with concert tickets, and 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.840 stub Hub experimented with a final price as opposed to 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:41.920 putting all these add ons at the end, and they 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.439 lost business. So the question becomes, you know, there's so 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:49.080 many items. Remember this first with VCRs, VCR was a 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:54.440 thousand dollar item, and then not long before their ultimate obsolescence, 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:57.280 there were less than a hundred dollars. So if you 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:00.800 tell people, you know, if you do all this manufacturing 0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:06.119 in America, yes, that would solve theoretically if pay was 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:09.800 high enough the income status of those people working there, 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.600 we create jobs. But is the public willing to pay 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:18.080 that much more money for their products in order to 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.760 build local business. Well, it depends on you to find 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:23.520 that much more. I mean, you and I are both 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:26.119 old enough to remember what America was like before we 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:30.560 had neoliberal trade policies, and you know, Walworth was full 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:33.919 of cheap stuff. I remember in the early nineteen eighties, 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.200 we've moved to Atlanta, Georgia, and there was a brand 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:39.399 new Walmart down the street. And there was a giant 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.520 banner on it made in the USA. That was Sam 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:46.320 Walton's big selling point, and it was filled with cheap 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.760 junk that was made here in America. Labor is not 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.120 that much of the cost of most manufactured goods. Uh. 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:56.680 You know, it might add to three, four or five, 0:24:56.920 --> 0:24:59.199 maybe as much as six or seven percent to the 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:02.119 cost of or be the you know, percent of the 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:04.920 costs of things. But but labor is typically not and 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:08.480 and and the costs are complying with environmental regulations is 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:12.280 not that great. The bottom line is that corporations, by 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:16.679 manufacturing over offshore or overseas and you know, using two 0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:20.320 dollar an hour labor labor or whatever it may be 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.160 instead of fifteen or twenty or thirty an hour labor 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:26.440 here in the United States, have been able to massively 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:33.320 inflate their profits. But there's you know, I don't believe 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:36.840 that bringing manufacturing home is necessarily going to make American 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:41.520 enterprise is uncompetitive, although I do agree with Alexander Hamilton 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:43.960 that the way to and with the Chinese, that the 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:45.919 way to do that is and with the South Koreans 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:48.120 and the Japanese and the Europeans, is that the way 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:51.600 to do that is with a tariff based um global 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:56.320 trade system. You know, Alexander Hamilton's eleven point plan was brilliant. 0:25:56.359 --> 0:26:00.119 It built America. It was abandoned, uh, you know the 0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:03.320 nighties and and and you said, you know Clinton, with Clinton, 0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:05.600 that train left the station. I think it's important to 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:09.159 note that it was Reagan who was advocating free trade 0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:12.080 from the get go, because it's part of the neoliberal agenda. 0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:15.240 It was under Reagan that the Gentel Agreement on Tariffs 0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:18.879 and Trade was negotiated. I believe, um they produced the 0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:21.000 gap that led to the World Trade Organization. It was 0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:24.760 under the Reagan Bush administration. Ultimately, the George W. Or 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:29.560 hw Bush administration finished the negotiations, the negotiated NAFTA. That 0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:34.040 was not Bill Clinton's invention. That was George Herbert Walker Bush. Um. 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:38.040 Clinton just signed on for it. And and in large part, 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:40.240 I think, frankly, he had no choice. I mean that 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:43.720 was that was the point at which the Democratic Party 0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:46.639 had been defunded by Reagan's destruction of labor unions in 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:51.840 the United States. And so you know, there is an 0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:54.520 interesting history there that we can get into if you want, Bob. 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:58.720 It's kind of a discursion, but um her digression. Let's 0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:01.240 just stay on Clinton for a second. Did Clinton had 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:05.960 he no choice but to undercut the social safety ned 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:10.320 or was that just a choice he made for political advantage? 0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:16.280 I think both really step back a little bit. In 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:20.720 In nineteen seventies six, the Supreme Court, in the Buckley decisions, said, 0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:22.679 for the first time in the history of the United 0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:26.159 States or any developed country, that if billionaires want to 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:29.679 owned politicians want to give politicians enough money that basically 0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:32.639 those politicians are beholding to them, and those politicians vote 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:35.680 for things that the billionaires want, or even introduced legislation 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:39.440 on behalf of them. That's no longer called corruption or bribery. 0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:42.679 That's now called free speech. And that money is no 0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:45.080 longer considered to be money. Money is now considered to 0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.080 be a form of speech. That was a radical decision. 0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:51.680 Two years later, in a decision written by Louis Powell himself, 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.879 the first National Bank versus Frank Billatte decision, the Supreme 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:59.120 Court said that that also applied to corporations. So when 0:27:59.160 --> 0:28:02.680 that happened, the Democratic Party was fat and happy. They were, 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:06.040 you know, a third of America was unionized. Roughly the 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:09.960 unions were washing cash and they were the major funders 0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:13.879 of the Democratic Party. The Republicans not so much. So 0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:16.359 the Republicans just jumped into that with both feet, and 0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:20.000 Ronald Reagan floated into the White House on a tsunami 0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:24.399 of oil industry and and and other big, big corporate money, 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:29.880 but particularly the fossil field industry. He then took an 0:28:29.880 --> 0:28:32.840 axe to the unions and over the next twelve years 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:36.159 cut unionization in the United States so much that in 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:39.000 ninety two when Clinton was looking at running for president, 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:41.400 and al From writes about this in his book You 0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:44.000 Know where he talks about him going down to Arkansas 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.800 and hooking up with Bill Clinton saying, let's let's figure 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.240 this out. When he was going to run for president. 0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:51.320 There just wasn't enough money from the unions to support 0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:55.480 that kind of thing. So basically Clinton, you know, the 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:59.960 Democratic Party was at a crossroads. The Internet was not around, 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:01.680 at least not the way it is today, so they 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:04.760 couldn't raise money on the internet. Direct mail would never 0:29:04.800 --> 0:29:07.040 have worked to raise enough money to run for president. 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:09.920 So the Democrats decided at that point, okay, you know, 0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:11.920 the unions aren't here for us like they used to 0:29:12.000 --> 0:29:14.600 be we'll start taking money from corporations. We'll just do 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:16.840 it from the clean corporations. We'll get in bed with 0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:20.560 banks and insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies, and we'll leave 0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:22.959 the steel and the chemicals and the and the oil 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:27.600 companies to the Republicans. And you know, as part of that, 0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:31.680 basically this whole new Democrat movement. The third way that 0:29:31.760 --> 0:29:34.920 Clinton and al from came up with was that the 0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:37.920 Democrats would embrace neoliberalism, they just make it a slightly 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:42.240 friendlier and neoliberalism than the Republicans were embracing. And so 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:46.200 you know, Clinton just also was promoting the that list 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:48.760 of tenants of neoliberalism that I gave to you earlier, 0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:51.680 and obviously one of them is is dial back the 0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:54.280 social safety net. He wasn't willing to kill it altogether. 0:29:54.400 --> 0:29:58.200 He five year term limited essentially, which produced an explosion 0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:01.560 in childhood poverty down the road. Uh. And but he did, 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:04.040 as as you point out, you know, declare, this is 0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:06.960 the end of welfare as we know it, and this 0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:10.600 is the end of the era big government. And you know, 0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:13.520 these were the neoliberal statements. I think that at the 0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:17.720 time Clinton believed that maybe neoliberalism actually wasn't. Maybe it 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:20.760 would work. You know, it really had only been tested 0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:25.040 in Chile's Pinochet Pinochet's Chili, and that was you know, 0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:27.560 everybody said, well, that's an aberration. The guys that dictator. 0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:30.280 Of course, he's going to kill people to get his 0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:36.160 thing going. So it was still unknown. Okay. Steve Jobs 0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:40.880 famously had the distortion reality field such that he got 0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:43.960 you to listen to him. You could see no other 0:30:44.040 --> 0:30:48.640 way in your particular case, even someone who follows these 0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:54.160 topics very quick closely. You have a very convincing way 0:30:54.320 --> 0:30:59.120 of making the argument, illustrating it with points from history, 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:04.520 from points from books. Why is there no equivalent politician? 0:31:05.000 --> 0:31:09.960 It certainly isn't. Schumer Pelosi is a little bit better. 0:31:10.200 --> 0:31:14.920 AOC has been somewhat ostracized. Bernie's Bernie has been great 0:31:14.960 --> 0:31:17.720 in terms of getting the message out, whereas on the 0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:21.760 Republican side, whether they're saying truth or falsehood, they have 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:27.400 a whole narrative that we just don't hear. On the left, Yeah, 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:30.120 Sheldon white House actually is doing a great job of 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:33.680 exposing a lot of the structure on the right. But 0:31:33.960 --> 0:31:38.239 I think that the whether this is the point you're 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:41.360 trying to make Bob or whether you're just awakening this 0:31:41.440 --> 0:31:44.600 in me. I think that storytelling is the key to 0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:47.760 the whole thing we are as human beings, We are 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:52.240 story machines. We love stories. We learned through stories. The 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:55.560 way the culture has been transmitted in human society's for 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.920 three hundred thousand years, as long as we've been on 0:31:57.920 --> 0:32:01.680 this planet has largely been through stories. And before writing, 0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:05.760 oral traditions were entirely story based. Um. You you go 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:08.520 back and look at some of the old Native American stories, like, 0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:11.560 you know, the one from the Abenaki that I learned 0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:13.400 when I was in her mad about you know, a 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:16.600 little boy who went out the woods and was going 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:19.040 to solve all the world's problems with a magic stick 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:21.400 and he ends up, you know, having an interaction with 0:32:21.400 --> 0:32:23.240 a skunk. And there's all. It's a whole long story, 0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:24.600 and I'm not going to go through it right now, 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:27.120 but the bottom line was that built into that story 0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:29.440 was the idea that you must always know where you are, 0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:32.440 how not to get lost, how to know directions, how 0:32:32.480 --> 0:32:34.240 to you know what to do if you get sprayed 0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:37.360 by a skunk. Um, I mean, there's just like all 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:41.720 these cultural stories built into it. And we have these, 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:43.560 you know, we've been passing them down for for a 0:32:43.560 --> 0:32:45.720 long long time. The little boy who cried wolf that 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:47.880 you know, the little boy who I identified, the King 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:51.920 with no clothes. Um, these are the ways that we learned. 0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:55.560 These are you know, story is just so important and 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.160 your Republicans have been pretty good at telling stories for 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:01.120 years and donk ats frankly, I think the need to 0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:03.560 get better at it. Um. I tell a lot of 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.040 stories in my books on my show. UM, I think 0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:09.920 that it's an important way. Anytime you can wrap a 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:16.760 lesson or a point in an example which is a story, um, 0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:19.600 and and and expand that to the point that you 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:22.040 know it can be there's some ability to identify it. 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:24.080 I think you're going to do a better job of 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:27.600 communicating that, but not just communicating, and communicating in a 0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:30.360 way that it will be remembered. Because people remember stories, 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:35.720 they very rarely remember data and details. Okay, what do 0:33:35.840 --> 0:33:40.960 we know? The ratings for twenty four hour news channels 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:46.240 on cable are insanely low, despite all the publicity about them, 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:51.280 Network TV News, Appointment News, Although they're appealing to a 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:55.080 very elderly audience, although that audience does tend to vote 0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:58.320 at a higher percentage rate than those who are younger. 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:04.120 So prior to the Internet, there was this incredible power 0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.440 most noted although I've been forever most noticeably harnessed by 0:34:08.520 --> 0:34:13.720 Rush Limbaugh. What is the power of talk radio today? 0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:21.640 Less versus TV, but visa the the Internet. Well, on 0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:25.120 the Internet, talk radio has been largely reinvented as podcasts, 0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:27.680 And I mean, you know, this is the space that 0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:31.840 you're that you're living in, and I think it's very powerful. 0:34:31.920 --> 0:34:36.600 I think podcasts have become a major piece of our 0:34:36.719 --> 0:34:38.640 of our cultural fabric in one of the ways that 0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:40.839 people people will get a lot of information and learn 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:45.719 a lot of things. Talk radio itself, Uh, you know, 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:51.400 don't get me started. Um Limbaugh was was a genius. 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:55.000 I mean he was brilliant at doing talk radio. Michael 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:57.520 Savage is brilliant at doing talk radio. There's a there's 0:34:57.560 --> 0:34:59.440 a there's a couple of people out there who are 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:03.200 Glenn batt is very good at doing talk radio, brilliant. 0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:05.800 And they're all storytellers. That's what they do. They tell stories. 0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:09.600 And when we started our show back in two thousand three, 0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:13.400 we we spent a lot of time. I mean, you know, 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:16.760 dozens and dozens of hours listening to all the talk radio, 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:18.400 all the right wing talk radio we could find it, 0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:20.719 and trying to break down, you know, every hour, what 0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:22.520 are these people doing? How are they doing? And what 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.960 are they do? And and there's actually a formula to it, 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:29.440 and um, you know, and it's a it's a it's 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:35.080 a fascinating one. Um, but I'm not seeing I'm seeing 0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:40.080 less and less good competent talk radio being done, both 0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:43.239 on the right and the left, frankly, and more and 0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:46.279 more because talk radio is such an interactive environment. It's 0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:49.480 such a you know, I'm talking to you, it's like 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:52.239 a phone call. It's it's it's not. You know, television 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:54.680 is this cold medium. And Marshall McLuhan wrote about this, 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:57.759 Television is cold medium. It's like you're you're looking at 0:35:57.800 --> 0:36:01.120 somebody's picture window. You know, you're it's warrior is in Essentially, 0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:03.759 radio is not. Radio is a very hot medium. It's 0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:06.280 right here, it's right in your ear. It's it's it's 0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:09.160 it's I'm, you know, one person having a communication with another. 0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:11.320 When I go on the air, i am I always 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:14.720 imagine I'm only talking to one person. That person changes 0:36:14.760 --> 0:36:16.840 from minute to minute, you know, and call her to caller. 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:20.960 But I'm only ever talking to one person, and increasingly 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:24.560 I'm I'm hearing you know, people on the right talk 0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:27.600 radio hosts who are just you know, doing polemics and 0:36:27.600 --> 0:36:29.520 talking points, people on the left who are doing the 0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:32.600 same or just doing the interview radio, which is not 0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:37.120 talk radio. Interviews were great on podcasts, um, which is 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:40.759 a slightly different medium, but we talk radio. I think 0:36:40.800 --> 0:36:45.560 that the the basic tenets of the medium which were 0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:50.719 developed in the nineteen thirties by father Kauflin originally, and 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:54.160 that Limbaugh reinvented for the eighties after you know, the 0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:56.600 death of Alan Berg, who kept him going through the 0:36:56.640 --> 0:37:00.919 sixties and seventies. UM, those those talents of talk radio 0:37:00.920 --> 0:37:03.000 are still very powerful. And if you do it well, 0:37:03.560 --> 0:37:07.360 and you and you tell stories and you talk to individuals, 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:11.279 you can build a fairly powerful medium. And like I said, 0:37:11.320 --> 0:37:14.400 i'd right wing talk station talk stations all across the 0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:18.920 country and some very effective talk hosts on the right. Um, 0:37:19.200 --> 0:37:24.480 don't don't underestimate the power of this to influence American politics. Okay, 0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:28.960 let's take a snapshot today though, because Tesla's if I 0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:33.480 haven't right, come without a M receivers. Although AM may 0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:37.680 go away and everybody be on FM, but we have 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:40.680 a younger generation who wants everything on demand. And I 0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:43.800 know in your case you have all your product on demand. 0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:49.880 But it's talking specifically about radio. Is this a growing 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.840 or shrinking market? Does it have to be reinvented to 0:37:53.880 --> 0:37:57.560 beyond demand or is it just old people listening to 0:37:58.200 --> 0:38:01.799 real time talk radio? Well? I think that, you know, 0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:05.080 radio has historically been a listen to it in the 0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:10.240 car medium, and uh, an awful lot of talk radio 0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:14.120 is moving off AM stations and onto FM stations, by 0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:17.160 the way, Um, just you know, it's just happen. I 0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:21.040 probably half the stations I'm on our FM stations and 0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:23.560 and the same as happening, you know, even in the heartland. 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:26.840 Although uh, you know, most people in Wyoming are not 0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:31.680 driving tests driving Ford pickup trucks and they've got AM radios, 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:35.400 I guarantee it. So I don't know if that answers 0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:37.960 your question or if I mean speaking you know, if 0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:42.240 we look talk about music, which is inherently short form, 0:38:42.360 --> 0:38:45.919 and the days of DJ's telling long stories, creating theater, 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:50.520 the minor long gone. There are occasional exception. Okay, younger 0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:55.799 generations statistically do not listen to terrestrial radio. They're used 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:58.000 to getting what they want on demand, and there are 0:38:58.040 --> 0:39:03.080 a lot of advertisements. Is this a dying medium? And 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:06.480 if you have a voice, you ultimately have to segue 0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:08.880 whether it be the podcast or some other means of 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:14.680 distribution on demand or is the marketplace irrelevant w R 0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:18.160 to M ref M, is it still strong? And is 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:21.520 it only strong with older people or young people adopting 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:26.520 Those are all great questions, and I would, uh, first 0:39:26.560 --> 0:39:29.880 of all, referring to Michael Harrison, who publishes Talkers magazine, 0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:33.440 who's probably could cite chapter in verse and statistics right 0:39:33.480 --> 0:39:35.320 at the top of his head. I don't have that, 0:39:35.480 --> 0:39:39.000 but my sense of it is that talk radio took 0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:43.280 a big hit with the advent of podcasts in the internet. 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:46.799 UM Limbaugh came out with his Rush Limbo dot com 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:50.960 website and his Limbaugh podcast. UM, I'd have to go 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:53.360 back and look. I don't recall when, but you know, 0:39:53.400 --> 0:39:55.920 at least a decade decade and a half ago, um 0:39:56.200 --> 0:39:59.560 and figured that out. And I think most people who 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:01.919 have any of an audience on talk radio or doing 0:40:02.000 --> 0:40:05.960 the same thing. You know, certainly I do, UM so 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:09.719 that you can hit multiple markets. But I think you're 0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:13.319 I think you're right that that radio has diminished as 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:17.920 a market overall. UM. That said, I've you know, our 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:21.279 our our audience, I think over the last few over 0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:23.800 the last decades, certainly has been fairly stable, if not 0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:31.560 grown significantly. UM. So you know where the industry is going. 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:34.640 I'm not sure, but uh and and I think that 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:39.400 you know when you're looking at UM, I think demographically 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:43.160 that slicing and dicing of it is really important that 0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:46.479 that if you're looking at rural areas, radio is still 0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:50.000 very very strong. If you're looking at urban areas and 0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:54.839 suburban areas, probably radio is a much smaller factor outside 0:40:54.960 --> 0:40:58.480 of the commute, outside of rush hour, and even there 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:00.640 you're seeing podcast. Take a take a good white out 0:41:00.680 --> 0:41:05.000 of radio. Okay, let's talk about you specifically. Your distribution 0:41:05.160 --> 0:41:10.000 is almost incomprehensible. You're on commercial stations, you're on serious 0:41:10.360 --> 0:41:15.600 x M, you're on public stations. What is going on? Well, 0:41:15.719 --> 0:41:18.680 when we started the show back in two thousand three, 0:41:19.560 --> 0:41:22.200 we were on a little network that was owned by 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:26.120 the U a W. At the time was called uh 0:41:26.239 --> 0:41:29.840 I e America Radio Network and we were on twenty 0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:33.960 seven stations and Serious X down or a Serious at 0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:39.920 that time, Serious Next Time we're competitors. And as they 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:41.960 that network went away after a couple of years. But 0:41:42.080 --> 0:41:46.680 as the show grew, UM, we wanted to add the 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:49.920 ability of people to expand the ability of people to 0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:53.560 hear the show, and so UM I think probably around 0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:57.440 two thousand six or two thousand seven, UM, we started 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:02.400 offering the show to nonprofit station, community radio stations, community 0:42:02.920 --> 0:42:07.439 TV stations, UM, uh NPR stations, whatever, you know, any 0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:09.800 any nonprofit station who wants that. We bought a second 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:12.640 automation system for our studio so that we could have 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:14.840 a clean stream that didn't have any commercials in it. 0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:19.000 We insert, UM, you know, nonprofit compliant content where the 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:21.319 commercials are so I at the top of the hour, 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:23.600 I do a book report for example, just read an 0:42:23.640 --> 0:42:27.600 excerpt from somebody's book. Um, and while the commercials are 0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:30.200 playing on the commercial side, and you know, we got 0:42:30.280 --> 0:42:33.240 pretty good pick up. We got syndicated through the pacifica network, 0:42:33.320 --> 0:42:37.040 which is substantial. It's got hundreds of affiliates. Were on 0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:39.640 the Pacific Audio Ports. So that we're available to any 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:44.880 any Pacific station. UM. Then, as podcasts started picking up, 0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:49.000 and this was maybe a decade ago, UM, we added 0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:52.640 a staff person to chop the show up and put 0:42:52.719 --> 0:42:55.400 it up as a podcast and and got on Apple 0:42:55.480 --> 0:43:02.279 Podcasts and other podcast platforms. UM. About maybe fifteen years ago, 0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:08.960 I'm not sure when um, the CEO of Free Speech 0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:11.759 TV dropped by my studio to talk to me about 0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:16.120 something completely unrelated and it was about a nonprofit that 0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:18.520 he wanted me to be on the board of and 0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:21.040 we had to talking and he said, uh, you know, 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:23.239 why don't we try stick in a webcam you know, 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:25.600 here in your studio and putting it on TV and 0:43:25.640 --> 0:43:28.839 see what happens. And at that time, free Speech TV 0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:32.400 only had one live show, which was Democracy Now with 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:36.800 Amy Goodman. Everything else was, um, you know, documentaries, and 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:40.120 it was a fairly small audience. And so we stuck 0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:43.240 a webcam at my studio and suddenly caught an audience, 0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:46.719 a TV audience, And then you know, free Speech TV 0:43:46.800 --> 0:43:49.040 started growing and they added Randy Rhodes's show, and they 0:43:49.120 --> 0:43:52.000 end and Stephanie Miller's show, and they added you know, 0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:55.879 a bunch of other programs and so and the TV 0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:58.520 network has grown and it's now on you know, Roku, 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:00.919 and it's on Hulu and it's on TV and it's 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:03.560 got its own web presence and it's ondish and it's 0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:07.800 undirect and you know all satellite receivers and uh so 0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:10.360 it's just it's just been you know, Bob, over the 0:44:10.640 --> 0:44:12.520 over the over the nineteen years we've been doing this. 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:14.840 It's like every time it seems like, hey, there's a 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:17.760 market we should be in. You know, American Forces Radio 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:20.400 was looking for a balance to Rush Limbo because they 0:44:20.440 --> 0:44:22.759 were getting complaints from soldiers who didn't want to hear 0:44:22.840 --> 0:44:25.040 just right wing radio. And so you know, they carry 0:44:25.080 --> 0:44:26.960 an hour right wing programming. They carry an hour on 0:44:27.040 --> 0:44:30.440 my show and have for I don't know, well over 0:44:30.520 --> 0:44:34.120 a decade um. So it's like, you know, you look 0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:36.880 for opportunities and you know, it's it's a it's a business. 0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:40.920 I'm running a small business. Okay, so let's a business. 0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:44.120 Their economics of the business. What are your personal economics? 0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:47.480 I mean, you know someplaces, you know, it's fascinating if 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:50.480 people listen to on a commercial station, they'll hear ads. 0:44:51.080 --> 0:44:53.640 But if they listen to the streams after the fact, 0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:57.279 certainly on public stations they won't hear at So what 0:44:57.400 --> 0:45:01.160 are the economics of the business. Well, it's it's uh, 0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:03.840 it's it's operating on a whole bunch of different levels. Obviously, 0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:07.440 on the commercial side, you know, we make money selling advertising. Um, 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:11.399 that's probably half of our total revenue of how we guess. 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:15.839 On the nonprofit side, uh, with regarded free speech TV, 0:45:16.000 --> 0:45:18.160 we we get a small percentage of the fundraising that 0:45:18.239 --> 0:45:19.840 they do on our show that I do with the 0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:22.120 pictures that I do for them. UM, so that's not 0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:25.120 a loss to us that that you know. In fact, 0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:27.280 we've got a full time video guy now that covers 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:29.960 you know that that covers so that we can provide 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:34.719 them with a television quality product. Um. With our podcasts, 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:37.520 we sell advertising on the podcast that's a revenue source. 0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:40.799 Are nonprodud. The only area that we don't directly monetize 0:45:40.880 --> 0:45:43.920 our the Pacific or radio stations because there's really no 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:48.200 way to monetize them outside of doing fundraising. And for those, 0:45:48.680 --> 0:45:51.640 we've got a Patreon channel where you can get the 0:45:51.680 --> 0:45:54.520 station to get the show and uh, you know, we've 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:57.960 got enough donors through Patreon and we explicitly say right 0:45:58.040 --> 0:46:00.480 on it that this is this supports our ability to 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:04.080 deliver this show to our nonprofits radio stations, the Pacific 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:10.320 radio stations, and the revenue from Patreon covers those expenses 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:13.759 and a little more actually, which is great. So you 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:16.719 know we're able to pay our employees well and do 0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:20.040 a good program. We're not you know, I'm not rolling 0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:24.600 my money been here, but I'm not complaining. How many 0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:27.880 Patreon subscribers do you have and how many people on 0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:32.560 your payroll? I don't know how many Patreon subscribers we have. 0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:35.720 I'm sorry. My my webmaster handles that, and I haven't 0:46:36.160 --> 0:46:39.520 frankly even looked at the Patreon page probably two years. Um, 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:41.880 it's probably a couple of thousand. I just don't know. 0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:46.120 Um with regard to uh or it might be over 0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:49.200 a thousand. Frankly, I shouldn't even throw numbers out because 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:52.680 I'm so disconnected from that. Um. What was the other question? 0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:56.359 How many employees? Oh? We have? I have three full 0:46:56.440 --> 0:47:00.160 time employees who uh Sean who produces the show and 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:03.920 does runs the Audioboardinate who does the video production, and 0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:08.640 me Um. I have a part time employee another producer 0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:12.160 who works on guests and putting stuff up. We have 0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:15.319 a couple of people who work force part time down 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:17.719 in Texas who cut the show up for the podcast. 0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:21.360 I've got a web master in Tennessee who does the 0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:24.680 technical end of the of the of this. Uh you 0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:27.200 know that that we pay every month. We've got a 0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:30.160 webmaster in London who is an old friend. He's worked 0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:33.000 with me for over thirty years now. We used to 0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:37.640 run forms and compy Serve together. Nigel Peacock who handles 0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:40.200 all the content of our web and runs Tom Hartin 0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:43.920 dot com and hartminer Court dot com. I've got a 0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:47.719 person who publishes our daily newsletter, which has a list 0:47:47.800 --> 0:47:49.920 of every story that I talked about on the air. 0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:54.160 It's free, it's advertising supported. It's over at Tom Hartman 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:56.919 dot com. That's so. She lives in the UK. Also 0:47:57.320 --> 0:47:59.800 she used to work with us and compu Serve and 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:03.640 and uh. And I've got an engineer who you know 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:07.239 who I pay. Um. All those people are basically part 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:11.319 time or or kind of a piece work kind of thing. 0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:14.440 I'll early or whatever. But so that's that's our stuff. 0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:24.000 It's been well established that most people are living in 0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:28.440 silos today. Certainly the New York Times become a pejorative. 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:31.160 Even though the right tends to get all their basic 0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:34.000 news from the New York Times. Tend the New York Times, 0:48:34.080 --> 0:48:37.960 they won't read it, So everybody is listening to their 0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:41.279 people will only read the New York Times. Do you 0:48:41.600 --> 0:48:44.799 feel that you're preaching to the converted at this point 0:48:44.880 --> 0:48:47.560 you've been doing in a long time or do you 0:48:47.760 --> 0:48:50.120 see it as job? Do you ever feel like you're 0:48:50.160 --> 0:48:54.680 banging your head against the wall. What's your personal viewpoint? Well, all, 0:48:56.280 --> 0:49:02.120 welcome to our business right, but uh, no, I know 0:49:02.560 --> 0:49:08.040 that UM largely on certainly on the Pacific stations, I'm 0:49:08.080 --> 0:49:10.400 preaching to the convertaive, I'm talking to people who have 0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:14.760 I've looked for a left wing outlet and are listening 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:17.160 to it. On Serious ex M, it's a very different animal. 0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:19.320 I mean, you know there are there are two or 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.680 three conservative channels on Serious XM, and there's one liberal 0:49:22.800 --> 0:49:27.760 channel and uh and then the Urban View, which largely 0:49:27.800 --> 0:49:30.440 serves as an African American audience, which tends to be 0:49:30.560 --> 0:49:35.360 more progressive. But UM, people are channel flipping on Serious 0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:38.279 ex M and I get a lot of conservative callers there, 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:40.920 and it's been fascinating over the years how many of 0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:43.160 them have stuck to me, have stuck to the show, 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:46.080 and some of them are still calling in and arguing 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:48.600 with me, which I love. My my favorite thing in 0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:53.879 the whole world is debating conservatives. And uh, it's getting 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:57.200 harder and harder because increasingly the high profile conservatives are 0:49:57.239 --> 0:49:58.960 no longer come on my program. They used to all 0:49:59.000 --> 0:50:01.680 the time. You know, I get even more and and uh, 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:03.759 you know John Bolton and all these guys on the 0:50:04.280 --> 0:50:07.879 you know, the last five seven years, they just won't 0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:11.440 do it because they've got such a great echo chamber 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:13.279 of their own. You know, why bother trying to go 0:50:13.360 --> 0:50:17.560 beyond that? UM on our terrestro radio stations, the AM stations, 0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:19.839 it's it's a little bit of both, although it tends 0:50:19.880 --> 0:50:22.200 to be more of a of a progressive audience. And 0:50:22.480 --> 0:50:24.520 on the podcast, I'm assuming that I'm talking to people 0:50:24.560 --> 0:50:27.280 who are more aligned with me, but I'm not really certain. 0:50:27.840 --> 0:50:31.640 It's not a medium that gives you that much feedback. UM. So, 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:36.640 can you change somebody's mind? Or do you believe you're 0:50:36.760 --> 0:50:40.680 changing anybody's mind? I I think I'm doing a couple 0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:44.040 of things. Um. Number one, I'm providing people with validation. 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:47.279 You know, you know you're not crazy. Um, here you 0:50:47.320 --> 0:50:49.400 know I agree with your worldview, and here let me 0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:52.279 give you some some details to fill that. So number one, 0:50:52.360 --> 0:50:54.160 I think a lot of people tune into my show 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:58.080 and to any podcast or radio show, but it's political 0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:02.120 looking for validation of their world Um. The second is 0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:04.200 I think I'm giving people ammunition to win what I 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.680 call the article or wars. Um. You know, they've got 0:51:06.719 --> 0:51:08.359 the guy who sits next to them at work, who 0:51:08.400 --> 0:51:10.919 listens to Limba all day, who wants to debate where 0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:13.000 they've got you crazy Uncle Ralph who comes to the 0:51:13.080 --> 0:51:16.080 Thanksgiving dinner and can't stop talking about politics. And they 0:51:16.160 --> 0:51:17.879 want to have you know, the one liners to shut 0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:20.200 them down, or they want to have the deeper understanding 0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:22.560 of the issues so they can get into a meaningful 0:51:22.600 --> 0:51:26.880 discussion with people, and and I try to provide that, um. 0:51:27.040 --> 0:51:30.880 And then probably number three would be that you know, 0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:33.320 I'm hoping to change people's minds. And I put that 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:35.640 at number three. I mean I would put it at 0:51:35.719 --> 0:51:39.040 number one if I thought enough people who aren't progressives 0:51:39.040 --> 0:51:40.600 who are listening to me. But I put it at 0:51:40.680 --> 0:51:43.759 number three simply because you know, most of the conservatives 0:51:43.800 --> 0:51:45.840 who listened to my show do so by accident, you know, 0:51:46.000 --> 0:51:49.719 like I said, the channel flipping um and uh so 0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:54.280 you know, the opportunities to change minds are much more limited. Okay, 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:57.680 you say you love arguing with conservatives, what do you 0:51:57.719 --> 0:52:03.600 love about it? I find that debate is and and 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:05.520 and you know, let me just say right up front. 0:52:05.560 --> 0:52:10.880 I I my favorite activity in high school was debate 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:16.320 class after the extracurricular debate um and and part of 0:52:16.400 --> 0:52:18.759 that is my dad. My dad was a historian. He 0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:20.840 wanted to be a history professor. I came along and 0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:22.600 he had to drop out of college and ended up 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:24.319 working in a tool and die shop his whole life. 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:27.719 But he had twenty thousand books in Spaceman and most 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:29.800 of them probably a third and more history books. He 0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:33.560 was a complete history junkie. And my and he was 0:52:33.600 --> 0:52:36.200 a Republican. Told the day he died. In fact, when 0:52:36.280 --> 0:52:38.399 he died, I was sitting with him in his living room. 0:52:38.400 --> 0:52:41.600 And as he died and and and I looked at 0:52:41.840 --> 0:52:44.920 over across him and there were these his two favorite 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:47.239 pictures on the wall, me shaking hands with Pope John Paul. 0:52:47.280 --> 0:52:49.560 The second and George W. Bush on the deck of 0:52:49.600 --> 0:52:54.000 the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln under a mission accomplished banner. Um. 0:52:55.040 --> 0:52:58.000 My dad and I when I was a teenager, fifteen, sixteen, 0:52:58.040 --> 0:52:59.960 seventeen years old. First of all, when I was fourteen, 0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:02.759 we went door to door for Barry Goldwater. Well, I 0:53:02.840 --> 0:53:07.000 guess I was thirteen in nineteen sixty four. Um. And uh, 0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:10.920 my dad never left that world, you know, I did. 0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:13.440 By the time I was sixteen, I had become an 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:17.879 anti war hippie and a liberal. UM. And my dad 0:53:17.920 --> 0:53:20.719 and I used to get in these knockdown, dragged, knocked down, 0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:23.680 drag out arguments when I was sixteen and seventeen. UM. 0:53:24.520 --> 0:53:28.360 And through that because we both loved each other and 0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:33.879 we're both well informed people who don't take debate lightly. UM. 0:53:34.600 --> 0:53:38.040 Through that we learned, both of us, and my dad 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:39.839 taught me this, and we used to watch the Joe 0:53:39.880 --> 0:53:41.879 Pine Show together. We used to watch Fire in Line 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:45.759 together with William F. Buckley. Um. We learned how to 0:53:45.840 --> 0:53:48.600 have debates where there was not blood on the floor 0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:50.839 when we were done, you know, debates that you could 0:53:50.880 --> 0:53:56.200 walk away from and shake hands. And it's a it's 0:53:56.320 --> 0:53:59.560 almost an art form as much as a skill as 0:53:59.640 --> 0:54:03.839 much as a science, and I've been able to bring 0:54:04.000 --> 0:54:06.680 that to my show, and I think fairly uniquely. I 0:54:06.719 --> 0:54:08.480 don't think that there's a lot of liberals out there 0:54:08.520 --> 0:54:10.840 who who go out of their way to try to 0:54:10.920 --> 0:54:13.040 debate conservatives. I mean, it was the hallmark of my show, 0:54:13.160 --> 0:54:15.440 probably for the first ten years of the show. Three 0:54:15.520 --> 0:54:17.799 days a week, I'd have conservatives on and we'd get 0:54:17.800 --> 0:54:20.879 into long, long form debates. I probably said it's gotten 0:54:20.960 --> 0:54:23.480 much much more difficult to get anybody who is wanting 0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:27.960 to come on the program anylonger. But um, I just 0:54:28.480 --> 0:54:31.120 I love it. I you know, part of it probably 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:35.160 echoes back to my childhood with my dad. Um. But 0:54:35.680 --> 0:54:39.640 I do think that if you want people to understand issues, 0:54:41.040 --> 0:54:45.480 spectators to understand issues, listeners to understand issues, one of 0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:49.320 the best ways to highlight issues is to have a debate, 0:54:49.400 --> 0:54:52.680 to have both sides present everything they can bring, all 0:54:52.719 --> 0:54:56.040 their ammunition to the table, present all their arguments and 0:54:56.120 --> 0:54:59.520 all the history for their arguments, and and then you know, 0:55:00.160 --> 0:55:02.839 the let the audience decide who won the debate. I'm 0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:05.080 not so interested in whether I win or lose. My 0:55:05.600 --> 0:55:09.560 My interest is in informing people educating people and and 0:55:09.719 --> 0:55:12.399 you know, not that I'm some high flute educator here, 0:55:12.960 --> 0:55:15.360 but that's my goal. My goal is for people to 0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:18.000 walk away from listening to a debate that I've had 0:55:18.640 --> 0:55:21.240 or an argument, whether it's with a caller, which happens 0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:23.800 more and more of these days, as opposed to guests, 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:29.279 sadly or a guest you know, with more information, um 0:55:29.440 --> 0:55:32.160 so that they can then you know, bring that into 0:55:32.200 --> 0:55:35.200 their lives in a way that's useful. Okay. When we 0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:39.160 were growing up in the sixties and seventies, the issues 0:55:39.239 --> 0:55:44.160 were really debated. Whereas Trump we can see with the 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:49.120 Latitia's filing just the other day, he's just lying, lying 0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:52.000 and lying, and the people who are aligning with them 0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:55.880 are lying. So what are you doing a debate If 0:55:55.920 --> 0:56:00.319 the person is just telling untruths, you call them out 0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:04.120 just to say, I'm sorry, that's bs, you know, back 0:56:04.200 --> 0:56:06.120 that up, give me, give me, give me something to 0:56:06.320 --> 0:56:10.000 to to to, you know, to believe that what you're 0:56:10.000 --> 0:56:12.000 saying is true, because it doesn't make sense to me. 0:56:13.160 --> 0:56:16.759 That's pretty straightforward. But okay, so let's go back. The 0:56:16.840 --> 0:56:19.560 problem is that the people who rely onlines, you know, 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:21.839 the Trump's, they will not engage in it, They will 0:56:21.880 --> 0:56:23.719 not participate. I mean, you know, Trump goes out of 0:56:23.760 --> 0:56:26.759 his way to have any any protesters removed and beating up. 0:56:27.440 --> 0:56:30.719 It's like it's the antithesis of debate. Okay, but let's 0:56:30.719 --> 0:56:34.840 say we're in that uh classic situation you referenced earlier. 0:56:34.960 --> 0:56:37.680 It's a family dinner, it's Thanksgiving, You're gonna be around 0:56:37.719 --> 0:56:41.120 each other a few hours. What do you tell your 0:56:41.239 --> 0:56:46.480 listener how to debate and engage that uncle. Now, for 0:56:46.760 --> 0:56:49.759 years and a lot of people say no politics on Thanksgiving, 0:56:50.320 --> 0:56:53.640 but certainly there are people go there anyway. So assuming 0:56:53.920 --> 0:56:57.040 someone from your audience is encountering that situation, what would 0:56:57.040 --> 0:57:00.520 you tell him? I would tell him that family is 0:57:00.560 --> 0:57:05.680 more important than than politics, and that and that love 0:57:05.800 --> 0:57:10.120 is more important than winning an argument. Um that. Uh, 0:57:10.360 --> 0:57:14.480 you know, when I debate politics with neighbors or with family, 0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:19.920 because people are constantly trying to bait me. Basically, Um, 0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:25.600 I'll make my point, I'll make it gently, and uh 0:57:25.800 --> 0:57:28.760 if they go on a rant trying to knock down 0:57:28.840 --> 0:57:30.880 my point, and it's a b S rant or whatever, 0:57:31.080 --> 0:57:32.680 or it's a rant that I don't think has much 0:57:32.920 --> 0:57:36.800 of validity, rather than humiliating them by pointing that out 0:57:37.360 --> 0:57:40.400 or embarrassing them, I'll just say, you know, I guess 0:57:40.400 --> 0:57:43.120 we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this, and 0:57:43.640 --> 0:57:45.240 you know, from time to time I'll even do that 0:57:45.320 --> 0:57:49.160 on the air. Again, I'm trying to to to role 0:57:49.280 --> 0:57:53.680 models for people as well as I can. Okay, my experiences, 0:57:53.800 --> 0:57:58.120 no one will change their viewpoint during the debate, but 0:57:58.240 --> 0:58:00.600 they might go home and think about it and change 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:03.960 their opinion. As you said, the majority of your listeners 0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:07.280 lean left. But if you had the experience with anybody's 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:10.560 debated on the year, whether it be a politician or 0:58:10.640 --> 0:58:13.160 someone who calls in where they you connect with them later. 0:58:13.240 --> 0:58:15.440 So who you know, I've really thought that, you know, 0:58:15.640 --> 0:58:21.240 maybe you're right. I have a handful of regular callers, 0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:25.240 probably a dozen or two who over the last a 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:27.760 couple of years. Uh, three of them I can think of, 0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:30.960 just in the last three or four months who called 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:33.000 in because they were listening to right wing radio on 0:58:33.080 --> 0:58:35.960 Serious ex M. In most cases, one of them was 0:58:36.000 --> 0:58:40.280 on our Chicago affiliate and um, you know, looking for 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:43.400 right wing stuff, they found my show. Um, they found 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:46.240 it interesting. They called me up to argue with me. Um, 0:58:46.840 --> 0:58:50.560 you know, I had debates with them that were respectful. 0:58:50.560 --> 0:58:53.480 I mean, occasionally somebody will just be so offensive that 0:58:53.520 --> 0:58:57.760 you just slapped them down, but generally not And um, 0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:00.840 and now they call the show regularly. A number of them, 0:59:00.880 --> 0:59:04.200 i'd say, all but one of them no longer call 0:59:04.240 --> 0:59:10.160 themselves conservatives or Republicans. I've you know, I've seen them change, 0:59:10.840 --> 0:59:14.120 and I'd like to think that it's because the information 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:18.120 that I'm presenting is actually factual. I will not go 0:59:18.240 --> 0:59:20.640 into a debate unless I really know what I'm talking about. 0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:22.840 I'm not going to present information. I mean, maybe this 0:59:23.000 --> 0:59:25.840 is the author in me. You know, I get editors 0:59:25.880 --> 0:59:28.760 who are you know, your line editor goes through your book, 0:59:28.800 --> 0:59:30.680 and you know, every single point I make, I have 0:59:30.800 --> 0:59:32.800 to back it up or the publisher will not put 0:59:32.840 --> 0:59:36.800 it out. And and uh so you get pretty rigorous 0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:42.120 about those things. Um. But you know, I I will 0:59:42.400 --> 0:59:46.480 hope that they are becoming regular listeners and are changing 0:59:46.520 --> 0:59:50.440 their politics, not just because I'm very persuasive, but because 0:59:50.480 --> 0:59:56.080 I've actually marshaled truth or what they've perceived is truth. Okay, 0:59:56.120 --> 1:00:00.360 let's talk about party affiliation. There's certainly die in the world. 1:00:00.440 --> 1:00:04.800 Democrats died in the world Republicans. But I have found, 1:00:04.960 --> 1:00:10.240 certainly since the rise of the right wing, that the 1:00:10.400 --> 1:00:15.240 vast majority of people who call themselves independent are really Republicans. 1:00:15.320 --> 1:00:17.240 They just don't want to be in the debate. What 1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:20.959 has your experience been, It's been the same as yours, Bob. 1:00:23.760 --> 1:00:25.720 Of the people who calling to my show and say, 1:00:26.080 --> 1:00:28.200 I'm in the parade, I just vote for the person. 1:00:28.280 --> 1:00:30.959 I don't vote for the party. I don't damn about 1:00:30.960 --> 1:00:36.240 the Republican partyment, but them damn immigrants and yeah, yeah, absolutely, 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:40.360 they're they're bashful Republicans. Yeah the when was the last 1:00:40.400 --> 1:00:43.800 time you voted for Democrat? And they go, they can't 1:00:43.840 --> 1:00:48.360 think of one. You've led quite a peripatetic life and career. 1:00:49.000 --> 1:00:52.040 How did you end up in talk radio and staying 1:00:52.240 --> 1:00:54.880 with talk radio, because if you look at your career, 1:00:55.000 --> 1:00:59.280 you tend to jump, you know, from advertising, therapy to 1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:03.560 all kinds of things. Yeah, I'm I'm a probably because 1:01:03.640 --> 1:01:07.160 I'm an a d h D person, I said. I 1:01:07.280 --> 1:01:09.920 wrote a couple of books about it. Actually, I have 1:01:10.040 --> 1:01:12.960 been a serial entrepreneur throughout my life, I Louise, I 1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:16.000 have started a number of businesses, five of them that 1:01:16.080 --> 1:01:20.600 were you know, consequential and did fairly well. And uh 1:01:21.120 --> 1:01:24.240 because back when we were first married, uh, we were 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:27.160 reading the novels of John D. McDonald's at the Travis 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:29.720 McGee Novels, and you know, his whole thing was, I'm 1:01:29.760 --> 1:01:32.120 not going to wait until I retire to enjoy my life. 1:01:32.160 --> 1:01:34.000 I'm going to take my retirement while i'm young in 1:01:34.080 --> 1:01:36.360 pieces and so are. The agreement that we had and 1:01:36.480 --> 1:01:39.200 we got married was that, you know, every five years 1:01:39.320 --> 1:01:41.800 or so, we would take a year off and and 1:01:42.120 --> 1:01:44.480 explore the world. And you know, thank god, we've been 1:01:44.480 --> 1:01:46.280 able to do that. We build a business up, we 1:01:46.360 --> 1:01:48.240 sell it off, we live off that for a year 1:01:48.320 --> 1:01:51.200 and there's enough left over to start another business. And 1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:55.000 you know, we did that up until ninety seven. And 1:01:55.040 --> 1:01:57.480 in ninety seven I sold an ad agency in Atlanta, 1:01:58.120 --> 1:02:01.080 and Louise and I had built and on a seven 1:02:01.160 --> 1:02:04.800 year buy out and so we had a real cushion, 1:02:05.080 --> 1:02:08.120 you know, a seven year cushing plus some retirement funds. 1:02:08.120 --> 1:02:10.440 And I figured that's a bit. You know, I'm retired now, 1:02:11.240 --> 1:02:13.919 I'm gonna write books and just have a good time. 1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:19.919 And then George Bush became president, and by two thousand three, 1:02:20.000 --> 1:02:23.600 I was convinced that he represented a threat to our democracy. 1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:27.320 That his policies, you know, his his going after Iraq 1:02:27.400 --> 1:02:31.360 and Afghanistan, on inappropriately unnecessarily lying US into the war 1:02:31.440 --> 1:02:36.960 in Afghanistan. Um, torturing people, Um, you know, just breaking 1:02:37.000 --> 1:02:40.960 American law. Just it just maybe nuts. And so I 1:02:41.080 --> 1:02:43.640 wrote this piece. I wrote this article in the in 1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:46.960 early either late two thousand two or early two thousand three, 1:02:47.000 --> 1:02:49.120 and published it on Common Dreams. I had started publishing 1:02:49.160 --> 1:02:51.480 op eds on Common Dreams starting around two thousand and one. 1:02:51.680 --> 1:02:54.280 Common Dreams is a well known progressive website, common Dreams 1:02:54.280 --> 1:02:58.320 dot org. And um, you know these these short op 1:02:58.440 --> 1:03:01.320 eds rants as it were. And in two thousand three 1:03:01.320 --> 1:03:03.560 I wrote one called talking back to talk radio and 1:03:04.280 --> 1:03:09.080 it was about how you know half the country is democratic, 1:03:09.120 --> 1:03:13.120 half the country's republican, all of the radio stations are republican. 1:03:13.760 --> 1:03:19.920 Why is nobody programming uh democratic radio? And um uh 1:03:20.400 --> 1:03:22.760 showing you need to drop me who were venture capitalists 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:25.440 in Chicago called me up and said, hey, uh, this 1:03:25.640 --> 1:03:27.960 is an idea. This is great. We would like to 1:03:28.120 --> 1:03:31.840 use your article as the initial business plan for a 1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:33.960 new radio network that we want to call our America 1:03:34.080 --> 1:03:36.280 Radio can you come out to Chicago and talk to us. Well, 1:03:36.840 --> 1:03:39.560 a little bit slower because a lot of people say 1:03:39.840 --> 1:03:44.080 it just happened. Just to be clear, you just published 1:03:44.200 --> 1:03:48.440 one article, someone tracks you down, that's it. You were 1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:51.720 not putting out feelers. You did not say in the article, 1:03:51.720 --> 1:03:53.600 I want to be in the radio game. Just somebody 1:03:53.680 --> 1:03:55.000 called you out of the blues. That the way it 1:03:55.040 --> 1:03:58.800 really went down that act. Actually, yes, Now in the article, 1:03:58.840 --> 1:04:01.680 I did point out when I was young, I did radio. 1:04:01.760 --> 1:04:03.840 I I when I was sixteen, I was you know, 1:04:03.920 --> 1:04:06.160 I started in radio at sixteen in commercial radio on 1:04:06.280 --> 1:04:07.720 w I t L on Lance and I was a 1:04:07.840 --> 1:04:10.200 DJ at a country Western DJ for a couple of years. 1:04:10.240 --> 1:04:12.600 I did rock and roll, I monster around a few 1:04:12.680 --> 1:04:14.760 radio stations. I ended up doing news back at w 1:04:15.000 --> 1:04:20.280 I t L for seven years until and so I knew, 1:04:20.320 --> 1:04:22.400 I know radio, I knew the business. I know how 1:04:22.480 --> 1:04:25.120 it works. And I said that in the yard, and 1:04:25.840 --> 1:04:27.920 uh so, you know, it wasn't like I was just 1:04:28.160 --> 1:04:29.840 some guy who wrote a piece. I mean, there was 1:04:29.880 --> 1:04:32.840 some credibility there. But anyhow, they came to me and 1:04:32.880 --> 1:04:34.440 they you know, and I flew out to Chicago and 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:37.800 I told him that I had some problems with their 1:04:37.800 --> 1:04:40.919 business plan, and uh, but they were looking for proof 1:04:40.960 --> 1:04:46.720 of concept. So Louise and I called the all fourteen 1:04:46.880 --> 1:04:49.000 or so of the radio stations in Vermont. We were 1:04:49.040 --> 1:04:52.080 living in Mont period at the time, and said, uh, 1:04:52.240 --> 1:04:54.480 you know, wait, wait just one second. As someone who 1:04:54.520 --> 1:04:57.320 went to college Vermont, spent a lot of time in Vermont, 1:04:57.840 --> 1:05:05.560 why Montpulier, we just wanted to live there. Those are 1:05:06.400 --> 1:05:10.840 Mont Peelier is its own backwater in Vermont. It's the 1:05:10.960 --> 1:05:15.120 capital city. You know, it's in the north. You know 1:05:15.720 --> 1:05:18.520 what you you just I mean mont Pelier. If you 1:05:18.560 --> 1:05:20.520 think about living Vermont, that would not be the first 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:23.720 place most people would choose. Well, actually, we first moved 1:05:23.880 --> 1:05:26.880 we bought an old B and B in Northfield, way 1:05:26.920 --> 1:05:29.560 back in the woods, had a half mile long driveway 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:32.880 up the side of a mountain. There was dirt road. Um. 1:05:33.200 --> 1:05:35.160 And then we sold that after a couple of years 1:05:35.200 --> 1:05:38.040 and moved into into into town in aunt Pelier because 1:05:38.080 --> 1:05:39.880 we were just missing, you know, being able to walk 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:42.280 to a restaurant or something. And the winners they are 1:05:42.320 --> 1:05:45.600 pretty pretty brutal. But anyhow, so we called, you know, 1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:47.959 all the radio stations in Vermont and we we found 1:05:48.040 --> 1:05:50.920 this one station in Burlington that where the guy said, yeah, 1:05:50.960 --> 1:05:52.400 I'll give you. I'll give you two hours on a 1:05:52.400 --> 1:05:54.280 Saturday morning if you want to do a test runt 1:05:54.280 --> 1:05:56.280 on progressive talk radio. I mean, that was my pitch. 1:05:56.360 --> 1:05:57.919 I you know, I'd like to I'd like to prove, 1:05:58.080 --> 1:05:59.800 you know, this proof of concept and if it works, 1:05:59.840 --> 1:06:01.560 you know, you can carry the show. And if it doesn't, 1:06:01.720 --> 1:06:04.560 you know, nothing ventured, nothing gains. You can still adds 1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:06.120 on the show and maybe I can get your audience 1:06:06.200 --> 1:06:10.240 for you. And so he put us on. Bob written 1:06:10.280 --> 1:06:13.040 his last name. He put us on after the after 1:06:13.120 --> 1:06:15.640 the swap meet. So about half the calls I'd get 1:06:15.720 --> 1:06:19.440 were you know, is that John Dear three twenty still available? Um? 1:06:19.680 --> 1:06:25.640 But it was good practice and uh and ed Asner 1:06:26.160 --> 1:06:28.680 was kind enough. We had a mutual friend and uh. 1:06:29.120 --> 1:06:31.200 In fact, he blurbed my book on healthcare a little 1:06:31.200 --> 1:06:36.720 while ago, um before he died. Um. Ed Asner did 1:06:36.800 --> 1:06:39.840 an interview with me and we took that and some 1:06:40.040 --> 1:06:41.600 of my rants and we sent it off to that 1:06:41.680 --> 1:06:44.080 network that I was telling you, I America Radio Network, 1:06:44.120 --> 1:06:45.600 and they picked up the show. And that was when 1:06:45.640 --> 1:06:47.600 we went from being this little tiny thing on this 1:06:47.720 --> 1:06:50.600 one station in Burlington, Vermont that had probably thirty five 1:06:50.640 --> 1:06:54.080 people listening, who half of whom were piste off at 1:06:54.120 --> 1:06:57.080 the swap Meeat wasn't still on to actually be in 1:06:57.120 --> 1:06:59.480 a radio show. It took Air America a couple of 1:06:59.560 --> 1:07:02.000 years to get their act together and get their network going. 1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:05.200 And during that period of time, I was just building 1:07:05.240 --> 1:07:09.360 my show. So that's you know, and it started. It 1:07:09.760 --> 1:07:12.800 wasn't we we funded the entire thing ourselves for the 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:15.400 first four years. We didn't. We didn't break even until 1:07:15.400 --> 1:07:19.560 about the third or fourth year, um and and and 1:07:19.960 --> 1:07:21.640 you know, over the years we've made that money back, 1:07:21.760 --> 1:07:24.640 but that was coming out of our retirement money and 1:07:25.680 --> 1:07:27.760 or what was intended to be our retirement money, because 1:07:27.800 --> 1:07:30.520 I thought it myself was retired and I didn't expect 1:07:30.560 --> 1:07:32.440 it to last more than four or five years at 1:07:32.480 --> 1:07:34.480 the very most. I you know, I was just trying 1:07:34.520 --> 1:07:37.040 to prove that it was possible to do if you 1:07:37.200 --> 1:07:40.720 follow the rules of talk radio, and they're not complicated, 1:07:40.760 --> 1:07:43.160 and they've been around since the nineteen thirties. If you 1:07:43.240 --> 1:07:45.440 follow the rules of talk radio, you can be just 1:07:45.560 --> 1:07:48.240 as successful as a Democrat as you can as a Republican. 1:07:48.760 --> 1:07:51.920 Given there's enough radio stations to carry you. And that's 1:07:51.960 --> 1:07:54.320 the big kicker right now, is that the big networks. 1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:56.959 I had I said at the office of the United 1:07:56.960 --> 1:07:59.760 States senator with the billionaire owner of one of the 1:08:00.560 --> 1:08:05.520 big three radio station conglomerates, you know, the owner of 1:08:05.520 --> 1:08:10.320 about nine d radio stations, and the senators said, you know, 1:08:10.840 --> 1:08:13.200 why don't you put some progressive radio on your stations. 1:08:13.240 --> 1:08:16.120 You've got three stations that are carrying right wing radio. 1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:19.040 And the guy said, uh. And I've never seen a 1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:22.400 senator literally had their mouth fall open. And when somebody 1:08:22.400 --> 1:08:25.200 says the guy says, I'm never gonna put anybody on there. 1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:28.519 I wants to raise my taxes, just like It's just 1:08:28.600 --> 1:08:33.280 that simple. And yeah, So you know, we've got a 1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:37.000 we've got a structural problem in terms of progressive or 1:08:37.040 --> 1:08:41.479 democratic talk radio. But there's no there's no question that 1:08:41.920 --> 1:08:45.280 you can successfully do progressive talk radio. I've been doing 1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:57.080 it for nineteen years and I'm making money. Okay. If 1:08:57.760 --> 1:09:02.280 one looks at your website and follows through, you're doing 1:09:02.479 --> 1:09:07.000 three hours of radio a day, You're writing opinion columns, 1:09:07.040 --> 1:09:11.320 you're writing books. What is your schedule such that you 1:09:11.360 --> 1:09:15.519 can accomplish all that well and let me have the 1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:19.080 pandemic has helped. Um. My schedule is Louise and I 1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:22.000 get up at five thirty in the morning and we 1:09:22.160 --> 1:09:27.439 put together that day's show between five thirty and roughly seven. Um. 1:09:27.720 --> 1:09:30.599 You know, uh, Sean may have booked a guest, if 1:09:30.640 --> 1:09:32.080 we've got a guest, and you know, we'll do the 1:09:32.120 --> 1:09:34.040 research on that. But basically we're going, you know, we 1:09:34.160 --> 1:09:36.519 just will read ten or twenty news sites and come 1:09:36.600 --> 1:09:38.200 up with what are the what are going to be 1:09:38.280 --> 1:09:42.000 the main themes for each hour and you know, what 1:09:42.080 --> 1:09:45.120 are we going to talk about? And I, you know, 1:09:45.400 --> 1:09:47.000 I go into the studio and we go on the 1:09:47.080 --> 1:09:49.360 air at nine. This is all Pacific time. We go 1:09:49.439 --> 1:09:51.960 on the air at nine and we're on until noon. Um, 1:09:52.400 --> 1:09:54.640 you know. For the next half hour, I do you know, 1:09:54.880 --> 1:09:57.800 I'll read ads for sponsors and just do whatever needs 1:09:57.840 --> 1:09:59.880 to be done, you know, to to clean up the 1:10:00.200 --> 1:10:03.400 the business. And then I leave the studio. Sean and 1:10:03.479 --> 1:10:06.240 Nates stay there and Nate produces all of our stuff 1:10:06.280 --> 1:10:09.160 for YouTube and everything, and Sean puts together stuff for 1:10:09.200 --> 1:10:12.840 the podcast. I come home and from one until five 1:10:12.880 --> 1:10:14.920 every day I write my bed that we published at 1:10:14.960 --> 1:10:19.960 heart and report every morning. Um and uh. And then 1:10:20.040 --> 1:10:23.160 my I write books on weekends, Um, all day, all 1:10:23.200 --> 1:10:25.639 day Saturday, all day Sunday. Uh. You know, I'll take 1:10:25.640 --> 1:10:28.000 a break for meals or to visit a family and 1:10:28.120 --> 1:10:31.599 things like that. Um and and you know I've written. 1:10:31.760 --> 1:10:35.000 I've been writing all my life, and I've been writing 1:10:35.040 --> 1:10:39.160 for publications since the mid nineties, and so I'm pretty 1:10:39.200 --> 1:10:43.080 good at it, and it, you know, it works. I've 1:10:43.120 --> 1:10:45.560 been I've been these this new series of books, the 1:10:45.640 --> 1:10:47.719 Hidden History series. The new one is the Hidden History 1:10:47.720 --> 1:10:50.760 of Neoliberalism. There are thirty five th word books, that's 1:10:50.800 --> 1:10:53.759 half the size of a normal book, and so banging 1:10:53.800 --> 1:10:55.400 one of those out of every six months is kind 1:10:55.400 --> 1:10:58.920 of the equivalent of writing one real book, one major book, 1:10:59.160 --> 1:11:01.920 you know, a nine hundred thousand word book a year, 1:11:02.000 --> 1:11:05.160 which is what I used to write, and I've always 1:11:05.200 --> 1:11:06.800 been able to produce one a year kind of in 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:09.840 my spirit time. Okay, you talk about writing your O 1:11:10.040 --> 1:11:13.920 bed from one to five? Hey, how much is that 1:11:14.360 --> 1:11:17.360 as research? And I consider research just reading the news. 1:11:18.160 --> 1:11:20.840 You know, you might also ultimately go to check facts 1:11:20.920 --> 1:11:25.280 or to find certain information out. And to what degree 1:11:25.920 --> 1:11:28.720 is it a chore to write every day or every 1:11:28.800 --> 1:11:30.559 day you say, you know, I got a formula, get 1:11:30.640 --> 1:11:32.960 myself in the right mindset, and I can just bang 1:11:33.000 --> 1:11:37.720 it out, you know, I I have to. This is 1:11:37.800 --> 1:11:39.880 kind of one of our our rules of life for 1:11:40.080 --> 1:11:41.600 for my wife and I is that you know, we 1:11:41.680 --> 1:11:44.200 do what we love doing, and when we stop loving 1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:47.920 doing it, we don't do it. It's just um and 1:11:48.240 --> 1:11:50.400 and so it's the same way with the writing. I mean, 1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:52.360 I've got to write about stuff that I really am 1:11:52.439 --> 1:11:55.080 inflamed about, that I really care about. And I think 1:11:55.120 --> 1:11:58.559 that that's you know, just wise anyway, because otherwise you're 1:11:58.560 --> 1:12:01.880 not going to produce something that lights anybody else, you know. 1:12:02.640 --> 1:12:04.719 So when I come home, Louise and I have lunch, 1:12:04.920 --> 1:12:08.840 you know, typically a twelve thirty and um, and then 1:12:08.880 --> 1:12:12.240 I come up here to write at one and you know, 1:12:12.320 --> 1:12:14.599 our job during that thirty minutes just to figure out 1:12:14.640 --> 1:12:16.160 what the topic is going to be for my op 1:12:16.280 --> 1:12:19.719 ed that day. We have a little uh web based 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:22.760 uh wiki page on which we keep all of our 1:12:22.800 --> 1:12:25.880 ideas for future op eds, and we still see articles 1:12:25.920 --> 1:12:28.479 and stick come on there, We'll have a conversation and 1:12:28.560 --> 1:12:32.000 we'll stick that on there, you know, on our smartphones, um, 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:34.000 And so we'll refer to that page and we'll look 1:12:34.000 --> 1:12:35.680 it over, and we'll look over the news because we've 1:12:35.680 --> 1:12:38.760 been doing that all day with the show, and figure out, 1:12:38.840 --> 1:12:40.840 you know, what's the rent today going to be about. 1:12:41.200 --> 1:12:43.840 And then I come upstairs and typically the first hour 1:12:44.000 --> 1:12:46.799 or so before I start right, you know, I'll outline 1:12:46.840 --> 1:12:49.320 my piece, what are the major points I'm gonna make, 1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:51.200 and then I know what I need to know to 1:12:51.360 --> 1:12:53.200 back up the points that I'm going to make. And so, 1:12:53.800 --> 1:12:57.080 you know, from one to two, basically I'm doing research, um, 1:12:57.240 --> 1:12:59.519 you know, bouncing around the Internet or looking through books 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:02.320 that I've got or whatever whatever sources I need to find. 1:13:02.880 --> 1:13:05.519 And sometimes that takes two hours. Sometimes it only takes 1:13:05.560 --> 1:13:07.280 twenty minutes. It depends on the topic. There are a 1:13:07.320 --> 1:13:09.160 lot of topics that I can write literally off the 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:11.280 top of my head. There are others where I really 1:13:11.360 --> 1:13:12.640 have to do a lot of research. I did a 1:13:12.680 --> 1:13:16.400 piece three or four weeks ago about how militious are 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:19.519 illegal at every state and the Union and have been since, 1:13:19.880 --> 1:13:24.040 uh you know, the eighteen eighties, and nobody's enforcing those 1:13:24.120 --> 1:13:29.120 laws and private militias, and that took probably three hours 1:13:29.160 --> 1:13:32.120 of research and that day I was writing until six o'clock. 1:13:32.200 --> 1:13:36.000 I missed Chris As show. So oh and then you 1:13:36.080 --> 1:13:37.800 know the rest of the day, you know, after after 1:13:37.880 --> 1:13:40.160 I get done writing, I go downstairs. Louise usually has 1:13:40.160 --> 1:13:43.439 dinner ready at five, and we'll watch chriss As on MSNBC, 1:13:43.600 --> 1:13:47.320 and then you know, Alex or Rachel after that, and 1:13:47.360 --> 1:13:49.320 then we knock off. We go upstairs and we'll watch 1:13:49.720 --> 1:13:53.800 some show on you know, Netflix or something, or or read, 1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:58.280 uh you know, or or visit people and uh, you know, 1:13:58.720 --> 1:14:01.800 it's just you know, I turned off my phone. I'm sorry, 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:03.320 I didn't turn off my watch. I don't know how 1:14:03.360 --> 1:14:08.360 to do that. Um, so that's our day. Any uh 1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:14.120 specific Netflix or other streaming show you're hot on. Uh, 1:14:14.320 --> 1:14:16.720 we just finished watching The Sopranos, because there's you know, 1:14:16.800 --> 1:14:18.840 the old Sopranos, which you never saw because we didn't 1:14:18.840 --> 1:14:21.080 have a TV back then in the in the late nineties, 1:14:21.720 --> 1:14:25.040 um in early two thousand's, and and because I guess 1:14:25.040 --> 1:14:27.080 there's a sequel coming out that we were curious about. 1:14:27.160 --> 1:14:29.200 But you know, I've got a list of this on 1:14:29.320 --> 1:14:33.920 my phone here that I can my binge watching. In 1:14:34.040 --> 1:14:36.519 the last year and a half, or two years. We've 1:14:36.520 --> 1:14:41.400 watched the Sopranos, Silent Witness, mcguyber FBI One, n C 1:14:41.560 --> 1:14:45.640 I s I, Yellowstone, Snow Piercer, Monk, Yellowstone, Hawaii five O, 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:48.920 the Original, Uh, Colombo, McMillan and wife. We went back 1:14:48.960 --> 1:14:51.639 and watch those. Um what we do in the Shadows, 1:14:51.680 --> 1:14:55.559 Person of Interest, Bones, Secession, Silent Witness, Good Fight, Billions, 1:14:56.120 --> 1:14:59.080 Father Brown, Death in Paradise, The Finder, C s I, Miami. 1:14:59.280 --> 1:15:02.559 I mean it's kind of Game of Thrones, Outlander Killing Eve, 1:15:03.120 --> 1:15:07.320 Magic City, Dot Martin, Blacklist. Yea, we get an idea 1:15:07.360 --> 1:15:11.800 of your taste. Going back to books, Although you get 1:15:11.840 --> 1:15:16.200 a certain amount of publicity, except for the huge bestsellers, 1:15:16.760 --> 1:15:21.840 historically books sell very few copies. What is your experience been? 1:15:22.000 --> 1:15:24.640 Is more of a labor of love? What's the motivation? 1:15:26.760 --> 1:15:33.559 I uh, that's a really good question. Bob I ernest 1:15:33.600 --> 1:15:39.040 him anyway once said, ah that I don't remember the 1:15:39.080 --> 1:15:40.720 exact quote. It's been so many years since I even 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:44.439 thought about it, but he once said, basically, UM, as 1:15:44.479 --> 1:15:48.240 an author, you gained a certain little bit, tiny little 1:15:48.240 --> 1:15:54.639 bit of immortality. UM. Sometimes I think about my writing 1:15:54.840 --> 1:15:59.320 as the stuff I hope my grandchildren will discover. They 1:15:59.360 --> 1:16:02.479 probably won't, but you know, I mean I used to. 1:16:03.760 --> 1:16:05.880 After my dad died, I discovered some of the letters 1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:07.679 that he wrote home when he was in the army 1:16:07.800 --> 1:16:11.599 during World War Two, and it just tore me up, 1:16:11.640 --> 1:16:14.120 and I realized how much I had lost. I wish 1:16:14.160 --> 1:16:16.400 I had had those kind of insights into my grandparents 1:16:16.479 --> 1:16:19.679 and even great grandparents. So, you know, in a way, 1:16:19.760 --> 1:16:23.680 I think I'm I'm writing for posterity, as it were. 1:16:23.800 --> 1:16:25.680 In a way, I've got things that I want to 1:16:25.760 --> 1:16:29.280 say that I think are important, and writing a book 1:16:29.320 --> 1:16:31.960 is a great way to do that. Um. You know, 1:16:32.080 --> 1:16:34.559 it's it's provided me with some income over the years. 1:16:35.600 --> 1:16:38.120 A couple of books have done very very well. Um. 1:16:38.479 --> 1:16:39.640 You know, I've got a couple of books that have 1:16:39.720 --> 1:16:42.360 been print for literally decades. One of them is in 1:16:42.439 --> 1:16:46.040 print in nineteen different languages. Um. You know, it's sold 1:16:46.080 --> 1:16:50.120 a lot of copies. Um. So, uh, you know, it's 1:16:50.160 --> 1:16:51.960 something I like to do. It's something I'm good at. 1:16:52.160 --> 1:16:54.120 My mother was an English major at m s U. 1:16:55.040 --> 1:16:58.120 And she was a frustrated writer. She tried to write 1:16:58.160 --> 1:17:00.839 children's books when I was young and kind of modeled 1:17:01.000 --> 1:17:05.360 for me the self discipline of writing and um and 1:17:05.479 --> 1:17:07.400 I often think of her, you know, sometimes I think 1:17:07.560 --> 1:17:11.240 I'm writing to her, um so and and In fact, 1:17:11.560 --> 1:17:14.600 my parents gave me a portable typewriter when I was 1:17:14.640 --> 1:17:18.679 ten years old, and my dad, when I was thirteen, 1:17:19.439 --> 1:17:23.400 first year of junior high school, demanded that I take 1:17:23.400 --> 1:17:26.240 a typing class because my typing was so atrocious. And 1:17:26.520 --> 1:17:29.200 I was in this class with like twenty eight girls 1:17:29.280 --> 1:17:33.880 in me, which was just humiliating, embarrassing. Um you know 1:17:34.200 --> 1:17:39.880 it was, and but it was the best skill I 1:17:40.000 --> 1:17:42.200 ever learned. I'm so grateful that my father forced me 1:17:42.280 --> 1:17:45.840 to do that. So now I'm much more effective. You know, 1:17:46.200 --> 1:17:48.160 I can write, I can type really fast, and I 1:17:48.200 --> 1:17:51.280 can write better. But I just love doing it. I 1:17:51.960 --> 1:17:55.600 really love writing, just like I love doing radio. I 1:17:55.680 --> 1:17:58.439 had the same experience with typing. I mean, especially computers 1:17:58.520 --> 1:18:01.240 came in knowing how to type some believable So in 1:18:01.320 --> 1:18:06.840 our conversation you've mentioned it asner, You've talked about politicians. 1:18:07.640 --> 1:18:12.920 Are you okay? In Los Angeles? It's a world of networking. 1:18:14.080 --> 1:18:19.439 Traditional fiction authors tend to be isolated. Where do you sit? 1:18:19.680 --> 1:18:23.160 Do you like the incoming people track you down? Or 1:18:23.240 --> 1:18:26.200 do you go out of your way? To have relationships 1:18:26.720 --> 1:18:30.760 with Ed Asner, You famously have a relationship with Leonardo DiCaprio. 1:18:31.000 --> 1:18:36.200 With politicians, where do you sit on that. I'm an 1:18:36.240 --> 1:18:38.920 odd duck, although I think that I'm probably the norm 1:18:39.080 --> 1:18:42.360 for radio, but I'm definitely the exception for television, and 1:18:42.479 --> 1:18:47.080 that is that I'm an introvert. I'm basically a shy person. 1:18:47.280 --> 1:18:51.120 I don't speak up. I'm intimidated by crowds. I get 1:18:51.160 --> 1:18:56.240 panic attacks in in cocktail parties. I hate cocktail parties. Um, 1:18:56.439 --> 1:18:58.000 you know, you put me in a room with thirty people, 1:18:58.080 --> 1:18:59.920 I can't deal with it. Put me out of stay 1:19:00.080 --> 1:19:02.320 in front of five thousand people. I have no problem. 1:19:02.479 --> 1:19:05.320 I can do that well. I have learned how to 1:19:05.479 --> 1:19:08.760 pretend to be an extrovert. Um, But if I've got 1:19:08.840 --> 1:19:10.400 to make small talk, I don't know how to do it. 1:19:10.720 --> 1:19:12.200 We went to an h O A meeting here in 1:19:12.240 --> 1:19:14.040 the neighborhood where I live a couple of nights ago, 1:19:14.080 --> 1:19:16.320 and I basically ran out of there as soon as 1:19:16.360 --> 1:19:18.240 it was over. And I'm on one of the committees. 1:19:18.240 --> 1:19:21.040 I should have stuck around and played politician. I can't 1:19:21.120 --> 1:19:23.519 do that. I make a lousy politician. I don't know 1:19:23.640 --> 1:19:26.519 how to shake hands with people and and and do that. 1:19:27.120 --> 1:19:30.960 It frightens me and intimidates me. So and I think 1:19:31.040 --> 1:19:33.160 that that's common in radio. I got to know Larry 1:19:33.240 --> 1:19:35.880 King before he died, and he was another, you know, 1:19:36.000 --> 1:19:38.840 in an introvert who knew how to pretend he was 1:19:38.880 --> 1:19:42.640 an extrovert. And I've heard that Russia Limbaugh was like that. 1:19:42.840 --> 1:19:45.200 I know for a fact that Michael Savage is like that. 1:19:45.560 --> 1:19:47.920 I don't know him, but I know we have friends 1:19:47.960 --> 1:19:52.040 in common. Um. So, my my social circle is really 1:19:52.120 --> 1:19:55.679 quite small, and I have never tried to network with anybody, 1:19:55.840 --> 1:19:57.880 you know, to advance my show or my books or 1:19:57.880 --> 1:20:00.639 anything else. The friendships that I've made over the years 1:20:01.240 --> 1:20:03.600 that might appear to the high profile, you know, like 1:20:03.800 --> 1:20:08.439 Ed Asner or Leo DiCaprio or whatnot, Um, we're kind 1:20:08.439 --> 1:20:11.559 of accidental things that that. You know, Leo read one 1:20:11.600 --> 1:20:13.160 of my books and his mother reached out to me, 1:20:13.240 --> 1:20:17.040 for example, and uh, you know, I invited him on 1:20:17.120 --> 1:20:19.240 my show and and and we just kind of hit 1:20:19.320 --> 1:20:21.800 it off, just the two of us, you know. So 1:20:22.560 --> 1:20:26.479 I'm probably to my detriment that I'm that incompetent in 1:20:26.600 --> 1:20:29.479 that area of being, you know, the gland handing networker. 1:20:30.160 --> 1:20:33.599 Let's talk about Ed or Leo. You have a moment 1:20:33.880 --> 1:20:36.840 of connection. They're doing the show where there's a project. 1:20:37.720 --> 1:20:42.160 Do you have any social contact beyond maybe once a year? 1:20:42.280 --> 1:20:46.240 How you doing? That's that's largely it. I mean, you know, 1:20:46.360 --> 1:20:51.040 Leo and I have worked together on I think six projects, 1:20:51.760 --> 1:20:56.479 three three or four short little ten fifteen minute uh 1:20:57.160 --> 1:21:00.960 YouTube videos that live, you know, little movies that on YouTube, 1:21:01.520 --> 1:21:06.960 and three or four larger longer you know, full length. 1:21:08.320 --> 1:21:12.360 These are all about climate change, um. And so you know, 1:21:12.400 --> 1:21:14.240 when you collaborate on those things, you get to know 1:21:14.320 --> 1:21:17.479 people a little bit better. UM. But mostly it's you know, 1:21:17.520 --> 1:21:19.479 if I'm in town, hey, how are you. I've become 1:21:19.600 --> 1:21:23.080 very close friends with his father. I think of George 1:21:23.120 --> 1:21:27.400 DiCaprio is one of probably my ten best friends, you know, 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:30.000 in the world. And you know, like I said, my 1:21:30.080 --> 1:21:34.240 social circuit was very small. George and I talked regularly, UM, 1:21:34.760 --> 1:21:38.519 which has nothing to do with Leonardo UM, just because 1:21:38.640 --> 1:21:42.439 you know, we we have We're kind of really similar 1:21:42.479 --> 1:21:45.280 people in a lot of ways, and I just you know, 1:21:45.640 --> 1:21:48.519 sometimes you just strike it off with people, and you know, 1:21:48.600 --> 1:21:51.519 with Ed um when he was married to Cindy. You know, 1:21:51.600 --> 1:21:53.519 we used to get together when I come to Los Angeles, 1:21:53.720 --> 1:21:56.599 you know, for business whatever I had to do. Um, 1:21:56.720 --> 1:21:58.960 But you know, I don't think we've probably had dinners 1:21:59.000 --> 1:22:02.240 together more than I don't know, ten or fifteen times. 1:22:03.080 --> 1:22:05.960 But you know, we keep in touch. You know, there's 1:22:06.200 --> 1:22:08.240 a few other people who are real high profile. I'm 1:22:08.240 --> 1:22:10.760 not big into name dropping, but you know that I 1:22:10.920 --> 1:22:13.280 that I stay in touch with largely because they reach 1:22:13.320 --> 1:22:16.520 out to me from time to time. How about politicians, 1:22:17.920 --> 1:22:21.439 same story, Yeah, yeah, I mean Bernie was on my 1:22:21.520 --> 1:22:26.400 show every Friday for eleven years, and uh, you know 1:22:26.479 --> 1:22:29.000 I got to know him well as a consequence of that, 1:22:29.040 --> 1:22:31.839 but we were never social friends. Bernie is all about business, 1:22:32.000 --> 1:22:35.160 you know. Uh, and God blessing for it's I think 1:22:35.240 --> 1:22:39.559 it makes him effective right now. Ro'canna and Mark pokaner 1:22:39.640 --> 1:22:43.000 on my show regularly. They you know, we have conversations 1:22:43.000 --> 1:22:45.280 and email from time to time, but you know we're 1:22:45.280 --> 1:22:47.800 not I'm not networking with them or nor are they 1:22:47.880 --> 1:22:51.840 with me. I don't think. Um, we're all about the mission, 1:22:51.880 --> 1:22:57.200 as it were. Okay, so you do your show very frequently. 1:22:57.680 --> 1:23:01.920 You know who your audience is. Anybody who's in doing 1:23:02.080 --> 1:23:06.639 a performance that frequently tends to know what their audience wants. 1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:10.240 To what degree or you beholden, which I know is 1:23:10.280 --> 1:23:13.519 a strong word to your audience, or to what degree 1:23:13.600 --> 1:23:15.920 do you say, Man, it's my show. I'm gonna do 1:23:16.000 --> 1:23:19.240 whatever I want. Where do you sit there going this 1:23:19.439 --> 1:23:21.840 maybe a little much from my audience or and then 1:23:21.920 --> 1:23:24.639 I'm not gonna want to hear this. Are you talking 1:23:24.680 --> 1:23:27.880 in terms of topics or are you talking in terms 1:23:28.000 --> 1:23:34.679 of you know, styles slash uh production. I'm talking topics. 1:23:35.439 --> 1:23:39.720 Oh okay, well you have I mean, you know, the 1:23:40.040 --> 1:23:43.680 basic rule of any any kind of media is never 1:23:43.840 --> 1:23:47.600 violate your audiences expectations, or if you do, do so 1:23:47.760 --> 1:23:50.800 in a way that is ultimately satisfied with them. So 1:23:50.880 --> 1:23:54.080 i'd say in that regard, you know, I'm i'm largely 1:23:54.360 --> 1:23:57.879 you know nine well over holding to my audience inasmuch 1:23:57.960 --> 1:24:00.519 as if I lose my audience, I'd have a show. 1:24:01.680 --> 1:24:08.840 Um that said, my audience is largely ah, thinking the 1:24:08.920 --> 1:24:10.920 same way I am. They're just looking to me for 1:24:11.200 --> 1:24:21.360 data and entertainment, presumably, um and uh yeah, I mean 1:24:21.400 --> 1:24:24.360 there are times that I'll bring topics up. For example, 1:24:24.479 --> 1:24:30.040 I'm I'm fascinated by spirituality. I was really into spirituality 1:24:30.080 --> 1:24:34.280 when I was young. Um. I took acid when I 1:24:34.400 --> 1:24:37.160 was fifteen, and it changed my life. I mean it 1:24:37.280 --> 1:24:41.160 just And I got real into into this one particular 1:24:41.320 --> 1:24:44.320 church in my later teenage years in early twenties, and 1:24:45.160 --> 1:24:51.040 even got ordained in that church. I I just you know, 1:24:51.080 --> 1:24:57.280 I was into the esoteric philosophers, into um kind of 1:24:57.600 --> 1:25:01.000 New age stuff. I went through a aread of meditation, 1:25:01.080 --> 1:25:04.599 transcemental meditation. I still meditate, you know, I although now 1:25:04.680 --> 1:25:10.519 I use a uh near feedback headband to meditate. Um. 1:25:11.439 --> 1:25:13.360 But it's a big deal for me. It's a big topic. 1:25:13.400 --> 1:25:15.559 It's a big part of my life. I literally pray 1:25:15.640 --> 1:25:19.160 every morning. And you know, occasionally I'll go off and 1:25:19.320 --> 1:25:22.800 ran about that on the air, and in particular on 1:25:22.920 --> 1:25:27.680 my affection for Jesus's words in Matthew, you know, the 1:25:27.800 --> 1:25:29.560 parable of the sheets and the goats and the and 1:25:29.640 --> 1:25:33.400 the Sermon on the Mount and uh. And I love 1:25:33.479 --> 1:25:35.840 it when, particularly when some conservative will call in and 1:25:36.400 --> 1:25:41.479 try to promote their vision of Christianity has been consistent 1:25:41.600 --> 1:25:44.840 with Donald Trump or something like that. And and I 1:25:44.920 --> 1:25:47.080 can I've read the Bible four times cover to cover 1:25:47.200 --> 1:25:50.280 I did it, frankly, as a way of getting to sleep. 1:25:50.320 --> 1:25:52.360 I've always had trouble sleeping my whole life. And I 1:25:53.439 --> 1:25:56.000 if you got these through the Bible in a year Bibles, 1:25:56.040 --> 1:25:58.920 you know where it's predivided into three sixty five slices 1:25:59.640 --> 1:26:02.160 and you read one every night. And I found that 1:26:02.240 --> 1:26:03.680 they just put me to sleep. I mean, you know, 1:26:03.760 --> 1:26:06.960 it's it's just perfect for me. It unwinds me. And 1:26:07.040 --> 1:26:08.720 so for four years in a row back in the 1:26:08.920 --> 1:26:10.880 in the in the eighties and the early eighties, I 1:26:11.160 --> 1:26:14.000 read the Bible cover to cover, so I can I 1:26:14.080 --> 1:26:18.920 can argue those things pretty effectively. Um. So you know 1:26:19.120 --> 1:26:23.360 that's not progressive talk radio at all, although I think 1:26:23.439 --> 1:26:27.439 Jesus was the original progressive so arguably it is, I suppose. Um. 1:26:27.840 --> 1:26:29.519 You know, I don't talk very much about my drug 1:26:29.600 --> 1:26:32.000 experiences as a young person on the air, although I 1:26:32.040 --> 1:26:34.800 acknowledge them. I'm not ashamed of it. In fact, I think, 1:26:35.080 --> 1:26:37.400 you know, it was a good thing for me. Um, 1:26:37.640 --> 1:26:40.120 but I'm not recommending it to anybody else who's certainly 1:26:40.160 --> 1:26:44.200 the age I was done. Um. So you know, I 1:26:44.680 --> 1:26:46.760 guess my answer is kind of wishy washing your bob. 1:26:46.840 --> 1:26:51.280 But um, but I think that you have to keep 1:26:51.320 --> 1:26:54.760 your audience in mind. Certainly, it's not just you know, 1:26:54.880 --> 1:26:56.760 this isn't I don't have a radio show just so 1:26:56.840 --> 1:26:58.960 I can, you know, yell into the into the void. 1:27:06.640 --> 1:27:09.080 Let's go back to some of the issues. Let's talk 1:27:09.160 --> 1:27:13.360 about the war in Ukraine. Needless to say, many people 1:27:13.479 --> 1:27:17.599 thought that uh Putin in Russia would just run right 1:27:17.680 --> 1:27:22.760 over your Ukraine. That did not happen, however, And these 1:27:22.840 --> 1:27:26.200 scenes change every day, so it'll be a week before 1:27:26.280 --> 1:27:29.599 people will hear this, and you never know something major 1:27:29.800 --> 1:27:34.679 could happen. But I mean, is like Putin literally losing power. 1:27:34.840 --> 1:27:37.280 We saw how these things happen overnight, and there have 1:27:37.360 --> 1:27:40.640 been all these protests and he's conscripting people now. But 1:27:42.479 --> 1:27:48.439 Putin historically doesn't want to lose face. So relevant of 1:27:48.720 --> 1:27:56.600 Ukraine's cap capabilities and successes, one might say Putin is 1:27:56.680 --> 1:27:59.400 never gonna tuck his tail between his legs and say, 1:27:59.479 --> 1:28:04.439 I love, how does this play out? I don't know. 1:28:04.680 --> 1:28:07.120 I mean, I'm very concerned about this. My my sense 1:28:07.200 --> 1:28:11.240 of it is that Putin, very much like every other 1:28:11.960 --> 1:28:18.360 dictator run who runs on narcissism um, knows that if 1:28:18.439 --> 1:28:21.040 he loses or if he's seen as being weak. Basically, 1:28:21.120 --> 1:28:23.120 the thing that keeps him in power is that everybody's 1:28:23.120 --> 1:28:25.759 afraid of him, and that he's and that he's perceived 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:30.200 as being essentially infallible. Um. This was the engine on 1:28:30.240 --> 1:28:34.120 which Mussolini ran, Hitler, ran Franco ran To, Terita ran 1:28:34.560 --> 1:28:37.200 are Towan is running right now. Um. I mean this, 1:28:37.520 --> 1:28:40.640 this is the dictator's playbook. Is You've got to have 1:28:40.840 --> 1:28:42.680 people afraid of you. You know, they can love you 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:45.640 and respect you, but fearing you is the most important thing. 1:28:46.200 --> 1:28:48.040 And people only fear you if they see you as 1:28:48.160 --> 1:28:53.880 essentially omnipotent or or you know, unbeatable and so Putin 1:28:53.960 --> 1:28:59.080 I think has already passed the point where the image 1:28:59.120 --> 1:29:04.320 of him as as this uh invincible man on horseback, 1:29:04.560 --> 1:29:08.680 bear chested, has been shattered. And I don't think he's 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:12.439 going to recover from this, whether his own government, you know, 1:29:12.520 --> 1:29:15.920 whether he's going to face a palace coup, whether he's 1:29:15.960 --> 1:29:18.080 going to decide okay, it's time to check out and 1:29:18.120 --> 1:29:20.400 I'm just going to retire to my datcha with by 1:29:20.520 --> 1:29:24.960 mistress and had a billion dollars, or whether something you know, 1:29:25.080 --> 1:29:27.479 far more terrible is going to happen to him, or 1:29:27.680 --> 1:29:30.479 whether he's gonna like Hitler did in his last days. 1:29:30.520 --> 1:29:32.200 I wrote an not bet about this. Actually a couple 1:29:32.240 --> 1:29:35.920 of weeks ago. Um a good friend of mine, a 1:29:36.000 --> 1:29:38.439 dear friend of mine, armand Lehman Arman and I m 1:29:38.920 --> 1:29:41.040 back when Louis and I own an ad agency. I 1:29:41.360 --> 1:29:44.479 used to travel the world teaching advertising and marketing in 1:29:44.640 --> 1:29:48.200 the travel industry, and Armand was doing that. We both 1:29:48.280 --> 1:29:52.360 worked with the same company. And uh, you know, we've 1:29:52.520 --> 1:29:55.040 probably been to twenty countries together and spent a lot 1:29:55.080 --> 1:29:58.280 of time on airplanes and hotels. And one day and 1:29:58.439 --> 1:30:02.960 Arman had this German accident. And he's about fifteen years 1:30:03.000 --> 1:30:06.479 older than me. And one day Armand uh It took 1:30:06.520 --> 1:30:09.280 me aside and said, I'm I think I'm thinking about 1:30:09.320 --> 1:30:11.360 it writing a book about my experience as a young person, 1:30:11.400 --> 1:30:12.639 and I wanted to tell you about it. I haven't 1:30:12.640 --> 1:30:15.200 talked to anybody about it, So what is it? And 1:30:15.240 --> 1:30:17.760 he said, well, when I was sixteen years old, I 1:30:17.920 --> 1:30:22.519 was drafted into the Hitler Youth and it was and 1:30:22.760 --> 1:30:25.640 I was the courier who hand delivered the note to 1:30:25.680 --> 1:30:29.080 Adolf Hitler that the war was lost. If you've seen 1:30:29.120 --> 1:30:31.160 the movie Downfall, that little kid who comes in, a 1:30:31.200 --> 1:30:32.800 sixteen year old kid who hand that was my friend 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:38.200 Armand and and and and that began a whole brand 1:30:38.240 --> 1:30:42.280 new kind of conversation between arm and. Armand wrote his book. 1:30:42.320 --> 1:30:44.240 You can find it on Amazon right now. It's called 1:30:44.280 --> 1:30:49.160 In Hitler's Bunker. And Armand has now passed away. But 1:30:49.840 --> 1:30:53.280 m Armand told me those stories of the Hitler's final days, 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:56.280 and that Hitler in the you know, when it became 1:30:56.360 --> 1:30:58.320 evident to him that he was losing maybe a few 1:30:58.400 --> 1:31:01.560 weeks or a few months out, he actually welcomed the 1:31:01.640 --> 1:31:04.599 Allied destruction of Germany. He felt that the German people 1:31:04.640 --> 1:31:07.120 had let him down. He at that point he hated 1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:09.799 the German people because they had failed him. He hated 1:31:09.840 --> 1:31:12.880 the German army because they had failed him. He had 1:31:13.040 --> 1:31:16.760 ordered his army to blow up Berlin. You know, at 1:31:16.800 --> 1:31:19.760 least a cording to army. I mean, I haven't checked 1:31:19.800 --> 1:31:22.240 this with history, although years you know, we lived in 1:31:22.280 --> 1:31:24.439 Germany for a year in the eighties, and I've read 1:31:25.160 --> 1:31:27.160 the Assurer's book The Rise and Fall the Third Reich. 1:31:27.200 --> 1:31:30.360 I just don't remember the details of that. But um, 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:35.240 I'm concerned that Putin might have that same mentality of 1:31:35.439 --> 1:31:37.479 I'm going down in flames and I'm going to take 1:31:37.560 --> 1:31:39.640 somebody with me. You know, this is this is what 1:31:39.800 --> 1:31:41.519 you see with these people who go out and kill 1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:43.519 ten people and then commit suicide. I'm going to go 1:31:43.600 --> 1:31:46.920 out and blaze of glory. Um. You know the kid 1:31:47.000 --> 1:31:49.760 in Newtown. It's the same mentality. It's this, it's this 1:31:50.040 --> 1:31:55.160 deep psychopathic narcissism. And if Putin decides that he's going 1:31:55.200 --> 1:31:57.120 to go down in flames and bring a whole lot 1:31:57.120 --> 1:31:59.600 of people with him, that might mean nuclear war. And 1:31:59.680 --> 1:32:01.960 that's the thing that makes that wakes me up at night. 1:32:02.040 --> 1:32:06.840 That's the thing that concerns me the most. Okay, recently 1:32:07.280 --> 1:32:12.160 there have been elections and the right made as they 1:32:12.640 --> 1:32:15.680 used the term populus, which many people used to think 1:32:15.760 --> 1:32:17.800 was a left term. It is now certainly a right 1:32:17.840 --> 1:32:22.400 wing term. In Sweden, they've made progress. In Italy they 1:32:22.520 --> 1:32:25.960 made progress. They're threatening in France. Certainly, we have our 1:32:26.000 --> 1:32:30.840 own situation in America. What do you think explains this? 1:32:32.120 --> 1:32:34.160 And are we going to come out the other side? 1:32:34.280 --> 1:32:40.080 Never mind Orbon and Hungary, but what's happening here? Well, 1:32:40.120 --> 1:32:43.240 I think actually Orbon and Hungry is instructive because Orbon 1:32:43.520 --> 1:32:46.200 built his political empire. I was in Hungary the the 1:32:46.760 --> 1:32:50.320 year that Orbon came to power. Um Orbon built his 1:32:50.400 --> 1:32:54.280 political empire on trashing brown Skian immigrants coming to Hungary. 1:32:54.880 --> 1:32:58.479 His slogan was, you know, build the wall, make Hungary 1:32:58.560 --> 1:33:00.960 great again, and a campaign down building a wall on 1:33:01.000 --> 1:33:03.000 the southern border to keep up the Syrian refugees. And 1:33:03.080 --> 1:33:05.200 by the way, he did, he built that wall and 1:33:05.280 --> 1:33:09.880 it's heavily militarized right now. So uh, I think you 1:33:09.960 --> 1:33:13.920 know the like for example, about Sweden, most people don't realize. Um, 1:33:14.439 --> 1:33:17.479 just day before yesterday there were three bombings in Sweden. 1:33:18.439 --> 1:33:21.280 That's there have been more than five hundred bombings now 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:23.880 in Sweden in the last in the last five years. 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:28.200 It is a crisis in Sweden. And almost and and 1:33:28.479 --> 1:33:31.160 and shooting. Sweden now has more shootings than any other 1:33:31.200 --> 1:33:33.920 country in Europe. And almost all of this is coming 1:33:34.040 --> 1:33:37.599 out of the immigrant community that was welcomed when when 1:33:37.880 --> 1:33:41.720 you know, the Arab spring happened and then you know, uh, 1:33:42.240 --> 1:33:45.320 what's his name, bushsher Al Assad was you know, well, 1:33:45.320 --> 1:33:48.840 actually what started the whole thing was climate change drove 1:33:48.880 --> 1:33:51.720 all these farmers off their land in northern Syria. They 1:33:51.760 --> 1:33:55.680 came into Damascus, started demanding food, assad started shooting at them. 1:33:55.880 --> 1:33:57.640 Suddenly you've got a civil war, and now you've got 1:33:57.680 --> 1:34:01.360 this refugee crisis going into Europe. The ability of a 1:34:01.520 --> 1:34:06.360 society to absorb people who are not recognizable by other 1:34:06.439 --> 1:34:09.120 people in that society, either because of how they look, 1:34:09.360 --> 1:34:11.760 or how they speak, or or how they how they 1:34:11.920 --> 1:34:15.920 dress and live is limited. I mean, there's been a 1:34:16.080 --> 1:34:18.639 lot of good research on this. You know, a society 1:34:18.680 --> 1:34:21.679 can absorb one or two percent a year of people 1:34:21.720 --> 1:34:25.200 who are quote not part of the society and integrate 1:34:25.280 --> 1:34:28.000 them into the society. But when you start absorbing three, 1:34:28.160 --> 1:34:31.760 four or five, the society starts to reject that that 1:34:31.920 --> 1:34:35.160 you get this backlash, and that backlash takes the form 1:34:35.200 --> 1:34:38.080 of what looks like racism, and in many cases it 1:34:38.240 --> 1:34:41.160 is it's just playing all avert racism or xenophobia. But 1:34:41.520 --> 1:34:43.400 you know, it might not have been there had there 1:34:43.479 --> 1:34:45.400 not been or it might not have been taking that 1:34:45.560 --> 1:34:49.519 form had there not been that that influx of new people. 1:34:50.400 --> 1:34:54.120 And I don't think that we're any in close to 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:57.120 those kinds of threshold numbers here in the United States 1:34:57.160 --> 1:35:00.280 of refugees and migrants. But Fox News and the right 1:35:00.360 --> 1:35:02.680 are doing their best to try to convince people that 1:35:02.800 --> 1:35:05.920 were at that point. You know, there's a caravan coming right. 1:35:06.000 --> 1:35:10.479 Every election, every two years, there's a border crisis because 1:35:10.560 --> 1:35:12.600 it will stir up you know, fear and hate, and 1:35:12.720 --> 1:35:15.120 fear and hate are great motivators to get people to 1:35:15.200 --> 1:35:19.000 the to the to the polls. So I think that 1:35:19.120 --> 1:35:23.760 there is um a crisis that has to do with 1:35:23.920 --> 1:35:28.760 this issue, this immigration issue um or the refugee issue. 1:35:28.800 --> 1:35:30.040 I think it's going to get a hell of a 1:35:30.120 --> 1:35:33.879 lot worse over the next five years as climate change continues. 1:35:33.880 --> 1:35:36.360 I mean, we're seeing Guatemalan refugees on our southern border 1:35:36.439 --> 1:35:39.519 because you know, a measurable and significant percentage of that 1:35:39.600 --> 1:35:42.360 country has desertified in the last decade, has turned in 1:35:42.680 --> 1:35:46.120 from farmland into desert because of climate change, and people 1:35:46.160 --> 1:35:48.439 are being pushed off subsistence farms and there's no place 1:35:48.479 --> 1:35:49.720 to go, and they go into the cities, and the 1:35:49.760 --> 1:35:51.599 gangs just you know, make mins need out of them, 1:35:51.920 --> 1:35:53.600 and so they flee to the United States or they 1:35:53.640 --> 1:35:56.479 flee into Mexico. Mexico is dealing with a huge influx 1:35:56.560 --> 1:36:01.280 of crisis level influx of migrants from Central America. So 1:36:02.920 --> 1:36:04.680 I think that this is this is going to be 1:36:05.080 --> 1:36:08.559 a longstanding issue, in a longstanding crisis. I don't see 1:36:08.600 --> 1:36:12.720 any easy solutions to it. It fractures societies, and it 1:36:13.479 --> 1:36:17.800 plays into right wing narratives and stimulates because it frightens people, 1:36:18.400 --> 1:36:22.880 it stimulates uh, you know, right wing political movements which 1:36:22.920 --> 1:36:27.200 are typically based on fear or on hate and uh 1:36:27.760 --> 1:36:30.200 and and very often hands victories to right wing movements 1:36:30.200 --> 1:36:36.840 as it just didn't sweep. Okay, the Republicans are all 1:36:36.960 --> 1:36:39.840 on the same page. They line up. We certainly have 1:36:40.000 --> 1:36:43.120 seen this with Trump. People said Trump was the worst 1:36:43.240 --> 1:36:46.720 and then cow tow to him. Democrats they say, it's 1:36:46.760 --> 1:36:53.560 a big tent. So we have a president who is 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:59.479 essentially eighty okay, uh, not even a boomer pre boomer. 1:37:00.000 --> 1:37:03.479 And on the other extreme we have someone like AOC. Now, 1:37:03.560 --> 1:37:06.240 of course we have to look at AOC is elected 1:37:06.280 --> 1:37:09.519 as a representative in a district in the state of 1:37:09.640 --> 1:37:13.439 New York. But she is very verbal and vocal. In 1:37:13.560 --> 1:37:17.559 the last major election cycle, she said, if you leave 1:37:17.640 --> 1:37:21.719 me in control, I know how to deal with the Internet. 1:37:22.160 --> 1:37:26.800 I know how to stimulate the younger generations to vote. Now, 1:37:26.920 --> 1:37:30.960 not all the examples were in her favor. What do 1:37:31.080 --> 1:37:34.320 you tell because we have traditional Democrats, as I mentioned earlier, 1:37:34.439 --> 1:37:37.880 Schumer and Pelosi, who are trying to go to the center, 1:37:37.960 --> 1:37:41.880 and the narrative created wherever is you must run to 1:37:41.960 --> 1:37:45.479 the center. Never mind, the center is further right than 1:37:45.560 --> 1:37:50.559 it's been in our lifetimes. But do we follow AOC 1:37:51.040 --> 1:37:53.120 is it about the youth? Do we move to the 1:37:53.240 --> 1:37:57.799 center or what are your thoughts? I think it's important 1:37:57.840 --> 1:38:01.040 to do both. I think that we have to acknowledge 1:38:01.200 --> 1:38:04.400 that there are people in what might be called the 1:38:04.439 --> 1:38:09.880 middle who are concerned about crime, who are dealing with homelessness. 1:38:09.920 --> 1:38:12.040 I mean, we're certainly we've got this problem here in 1:38:12.080 --> 1:38:16.040 Portland right now, and it's it's radicalizing the city. Um, 1:38:16.520 --> 1:38:19.719 the homeless crisis and which has become now a crime crisis. 1:38:20.760 --> 1:38:22.400 I've even seen it. You know, we had homeless people 1:38:22.400 --> 1:38:27.000 try to break into our house. Um, this is something 1:38:27.120 --> 1:38:29.560 that you can't deal with with slogans. You've got to 1:38:29.600 --> 1:38:34.240 deal with policy. And and that policy isn't oh, you 1:38:34.320 --> 1:38:37.439 know you poor people were going to uh, We're gonna 1:38:37.520 --> 1:38:42.080 let you do whatever you want. Um, which could be 1:38:42.400 --> 1:38:45.280 perceived by some people as kind of a right wing position. 1:38:45.320 --> 1:38:48.280 I think it's a little more pragmatic. Um. And I'm 1:38:48.320 --> 1:38:52.000 not offering specific policy instructions here other than to say, 1:38:52.120 --> 1:38:54.800 it's just you can't have people camping on the streets 1:38:54.840 --> 1:38:57.400 of cities. UM. So we've got to come up with 1:38:57.479 --> 1:38:59.800 something better than that. But there are people out there, 1:39:00.200 --> 1:39:03.800 oh no, no, almost rights, right, And I agree almost 1:39:03.840 --> 1:39:06.080 people should have rights, but not to camp in the 1:39:06.160 --> 1:39:09.479 city or in the streets of the city, and and 1:39:09.760 --> 1:39:14.800 and crap them on the curb. So you know, that's 1:39:14.920 --> 1:39:17.720 that's about as far right as I But you know, 1:39:17.800 --> 1:39:21.000 we have to acknowledge that, um, and and that you know, 1:39:21.479 --> 1:39:23.479 there are those kinds of concerns. And then on the 1:39:23.560 --> 1:39:26.720 other h on, you know, on the left, I think 1:39:26.800 --> 1:39:32.760 that um, you know, issues of civil rights and women's rights, 1:39:32.960 --> 1:39:36.519 human rights, I think right across the board. Uh, I 1:39:36.600 --> 1:39:42.120 think broadly speaking, often these are winning subjects. The Republicans 1:39:42.160 --> 1:39:45.759 have found little niches that they can amplify into great 1:39:45.800 --> 1:39:49.880 big things. Um. You know, so called critical race theory um, 1:39:50.640 --> 1:39:54.000 which just got blown all out of proportion. Um. The 1:39:54.240 --> 1:39:57.560 very very small number of trans kids who want to 1:39:57.680 --> 1:40:01.720 compete in girls sports, trans you know, trans girls who 1:40:01.760 --> 1:40:05.160 want to compete in girls sports. Um, that they're exploiting. 1:40:06.080 --> 1:40:11.719 And I would not argue that the Democratic Party should 1:40:11.720 --> 1:40:14.519 put those issues front and center. They still need to 1:40:14.520 --> 1:40:18.000 stand up for the rights of those people. But you know, 1:40:18.080 --> 1:40:20.280 the Republicans are going to be campaigning on those things, 1:40:20.400 --> 1:40:21.840 so you know, we have to figure out how to 1:40:21.880 --> 1:40:26.080 deal with that. I don't see easy answers, Bob. I. 1:40:26.160 --> 1:40:31.759 I think that Alexander Cassio Cortez is is her generations Bernie, 1:40:32.479 --> 1:40:34.240 and she's going to go a long, long way, and 1:40:34.320 --> 1:40:36.080 she's got a lot of good people with her, you know, 1:40:36.160 --> 1:40:39.400 the other members of Congress squad um. But there's others 1:40:39.400 --> 1:40:43.080 in addition to that. But you know, there's also you know, 1:40:43.160 --> 1:40:45.360 you've got Bernie and Elizabeth Warren and some you know, 1:40:45.479 --> 1:40:48.760 some very older people, people their sixties and seventies who 1:40:49.000 --> 1:40:50.920 also have, you know, things to say and things to 1:40:50.960 --> 1:40:55.400 contribute to the conversation that are not inconsistent or incompatible. UM. 1:40:56.600 --> 1:40:59.120 I'm very pleased that the Democratic Party seems to be 1:40:59.200 --> 1:41:03.719 coalescing around basically four issues around abortion, guns, the environment, 1:41:04.200 --> 1:41:07.040 and the threat to democracy that the Republican Party represents. 1:41:07.560 --> 1:41:10.559 I think those are winning issues that from the far 1:41:10.760 --> 1:41:14.080 left within the Democratic Party to the to the neoliberal 1:41:14.240 --> 1:41:17.360 right within the Democratic Party. The Josh Gottheimer's and the 1:41:17.439 --> 1:41:22.200 Democratic Party. Um, there's a there's an agreement, a spectrum 1:41:22.200 --> 1:41:27.120 of agreement, and and that's a good thing. Okay. I'm 1:41:27.160 --> 1:41:32.040 someone who voting absolutely every election, although I've had some 1:41:32.280 --> 1:41:36.719 hope with recent events. Certainly we have this Kennon decision 1:41:36.800 --> 1:41:39.479 that was just overturned by an appeals court. Two of 1:41:39.520 --> 1:41:44.320 the judge were Trump appointees. But we know the Supreme Court. 1:41:44.880 --> 1:41:48.840 I'll make it very mild leans, right, So what do 1:41:49.000 --> 1:41:53.840 we know? The Republicans are willing to do things. It's 1:41:53.920 --> 1:41:58.000 so far the Democrats have not. So if you undermine 1:41:58.040 --> 1:42:04.240 the system, it is hard to succeed. Why should I 1:42:04.360 --> 1:42:06.920 have hope? You know, we talked about this little bit, 1:42:06.920 --> 1:42:10.560 you know. You know, I look at this. The electoral 1:42:10.760 --> 1:42:14.639 power is balanced to the advantage of right. The Senate 1:42:14.800 --> 1:42:18.560 is balanced to the advantage of right. Never mind jerrymandery, 1:42:18.560 --> 1:42:20.679 and I want to go deep into that. Look what's 1:42:20.680 --> 1:42:26.400 happening in North Carolina. Look at the ultimate arbiter is biased, 1:42:27.439 --> 1:42:32.439 you know. And all I hear from politicians is vote, vote, vote, 1:42:33.280 --> 1:42:36.240 And it's hard for me to get excited about that. 1:42:36.560 --> 1:42:38.679 You know, I just don't see it that way. That's enough. 1:42:40.320 --> 1:42:43.560 I'm not sure where your question is. My question is 1:42:43.640 --> 1:42:46.360 to those of us who've been in the system for 1:42:46.439 --> 1:42:51.120 a long time and the young people, how do we 1:42:51.240 --> 1:42:57.439 have hope that there's gonna be systemic change? Oh? Yeah, well, 1:42:57.560 --> 1:43:00.599 I I am hopeful that the Democrats. I I thought 1:43:00.640 --> 1:43:03.640 that the Chuck Schumer should have blown up the filibuster 1:43:03.760 --> 1:43:06.040 on day one. There's been so much good legislation that 1:43:06.120 --> 1:43:09.000 came out of the House that could have passed the Senate. Um, 1:43:10.720 --> 1:43:13.040 Chuck Schumer has been a big disappointment in many ways. 1:43:13.240 --> 1:43:15.720 Now that said, he's running the Senate and I'm not. 1:43:16.479 --> 1:43:19.240 And I'm willing to assume that he knows things I 1:43:19.320 --> 1:43:26.120 don't know. But UM, I'll leave it at that. UM. 1:43:28.439 --> 1:43:30.840 I think that you either have faith in democracy or 1:43:30.920 --> 1:43:33.400 you don't. You either believe that in the end, the 1:43:33.439 --> 1:43:36.439 good guys you're gonna win, or you don't. And I'm 1:43:36.600 --> 1:43:38.800 just not willing, and I have never been willing in 1:43:38.920 --> 1:43:42.479 my life to embrace the level of cynicism necessary to 1:43:42.600 --> 1:43:45.479 say screw it. You know, we're doomed. It's not going 1:43:45.520 --> 1:43:50.040 to work. Um. I I realized that the Democratic Party 1:43:50.120 --> 1:43:52.800 moves slower than I would like. Um. You know I've 1:43:52.840 --> 1:43:56.120 been banging on their doors since uh two thousand three, 1:43:56.160 --> 1:43:59.640 on the radio and in print since the nineties. UM, 1:44:00.720 --> 1:44:04.120 railing about it. I used to, you know, beat up 1:44:04.120 --> 1:44:06.920 Harry Read on there all the time, make jokes about how, 1:44:07.479 --> 1:44:10.640 you know, they should steal Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger. This is 1:44:10.680 --> 1:44:13.800 when Schwartzenerger was governor of California. How somebody should stand 1:44:13.840 --> 1:44:19.280 outside his house, you know every month when the testosterone 1:44:19.320 --> 1:44:23.160 mail delivery arrives and steal it and go shoot up 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:24.960 Harry Read with it. You know, come on, Harry, get 1:44:25.000 --> 1:44:27.920 a spine, you know, fight back. Um. He was always 1:44:27.960 --> 1:44:30.880 so nice and so friendly and oh, we can't do that, 1:44:31.200 --> 1:44:34.600 and that would be too far. Um. Yeah, he was 1:44:34.640 --> 1:44:37.439 a good man in retrospect. And you know, I don't 1:44:37.439 --> 1:44:42.040 want to speak ill of the dead, but um, the 1:44:42.160 --> 1:44:45.960 Democratic Party has, all throughout my lifetime, has always been 1:44:46.000 --> 1:44:48.479 the party that says we're going to do things the 1:44:48.600 --> 1:44:51.639 right way, We're going to do things the appropriate way. 1:44:51.720 --> 1:44:55.439 We're going to do things, UM carefully and and and 1:44:55.560 --> 1:44:58.600 in so many cases slowly, to make sure that the 1:44:58.720 --> 1:45:00.760 outcome is strong and all it and that there's a 1:45:00.840 --> 1:45:03.519 consensus around this. We're not just going to grab power 1:45:03.840 --> 1:45:07.080 for the sake of power. The Republican Party is pursuing 1:45:07.160 --> 1:45:09.320 that ladder, grab power for the sake of power and 1:45:09.400 --> 1:45:13.280 get whatever you can done quickly. And now they've overreached, 1:45:13.640 --> 1:45:16.160 you know, particularly with abortion, but I think they've overreached 1:45:16.600 --> 1:45:19.320 frankly with neoliberalism as well over the last forty years, 1:45:19.400 --> 1:45:23.080 although Democrats have their fingerprints all over that too, and 1:45:23.880 --> 1:45:25.880 um and I think it's going to blow up in 1:45:25.920 --> 1:45:28.679 their face. I don't know if it's going to blow 1:45:28.720 --> 1:45:30.800 up in their face in this election or over the 1:45:30.920 --> 1:45:34.479 next few years. But I really think that the era 1:45:34.880 --> 1:45:39.519 of Republican dominance of American politics, or more appropriately to 1:45:39.560 --> 1:45:43.760 say conservative dominance and now neo fascist or as Biden 1:45:43.840 --> 1:45:46.519 was say, semi fascist dominance of our of our politics. 1:45:47.040 --> 1:45:49.479 I really think that's over. I think there's something to 1:45:49.560 --> 1:45:51.960 be said for you know, Stanley church In's notion of 1:45:52.080 --> 1:45:56.400 these forty year cycles within the context of Strausson House 1:45:56.520 --> 1:45:59.439 eighty year cycles in politics, and I think that we're 1:45:59.479 --> 1:46:01.880 at the end of a forty year conservative cycle and 1:46:02.320 --> 1:46:08.519 we're going into our beginning a far more progressive cycle. Okay, 1:46:09.000 --> 1:46:12.160 Biden gets an office, first six ten months are great. 1:46:13.040 --> 1:46:17.160 Then the works are gummed up and the approval ratings 1:46:17.240 --> 1:46:21.320 go down, and his whole party does not rally around him. 1:46:21.360 --> 1:46:23.920 The right has been on this program from the beginning. 1:46:24.080 --> 1:46:27.840 He's old, he's senile, all this other stuff. The left 1:46:28.040 --> 1:46:33.480 was silent. And now two years later, Biden has some victories, 1:46:33.960 --> 1:46:37.000 his numbers are going up, but the people in Washington 1:46:37.160 --> 1:46:40.840 are still not supporting him vocally. What do you think 1:46:41.000 --> 1:46:44.040 is happening here? I've been hearing a fair amount of 1:46:44.080 --> 1:46:48.040 support for Biden, you know, recently, particularly going into the election. 1:46:48.479 --> 1:46:50.800 Maybe some of its pro forma, but but I think, 1:46:51.120 --> 1:46:54.960 you know, a lot of it is it's Sincere Um. Yeah, 1:46:55.080 --> 1:46:58.120 when he when he couldn't Yeah, you know, I think 1:46:58.400 --> 1:47:00.080 I was piste off about this. I think at the 1:47:00.120 --> 1:47:04.560 Democrats were when he couldn't get um Joe Mansion and 1:47:05.040 --> 1:47:08.840 Kristen Cinema to go along with freaking voting rights for 1:47:08.960 --> 1:47:13.439 God's sake. Um, you know, at that point, I just 1:47:13.479 --> 1:47:16.639 can't imagine Lyndon Johnson doing that as president or as 1:47:16.960 --> 1:47:19.679 as in Chuck Schumer's position as leader of the Senate, 1:47:19.720 --> 1:47:22.360 the Democrats in the Senate. I mean, you know, Lynnon 1:47:22.439 --> 1:47:25.519 Johnson would have gone in there and and picked picked 1:47:25.920 --> 1:47:28.960 Joe Mansion up by the by the throat and slammed 1:47:29.000 --> 1:47:31.479 him up against the wall and said, okay, buddy, here's 1:47:31.520 --> 1:47:33.000 what you're gonna do for me, And here's what I'm 1:47:33.000 --> 1:47:35.760 gonna do for you, and no, and advanced. You know 1:47:35.880 --> 1:47:37.400 what he was gonna what he was. You know, you're 1:47:37.400 --> 1:47:40.080 gonna get a bridge named after you and a brand 1:47:40.120 --> 1:47:43.479 new power plant, and you're gonna give me this goddamn bill. 1:47:43.600 --> 1:47:45.720 I mean, you know that That's what Lyndon Johnson would 1:47:45.720 --> 1:47:50.439 have done. And and Frankly, that's what Franklin Roosevelt. And uh, 1:47:50.560 --> 1:47:52.439 you know there's a lot of us who would very 1:47:52.520 --> 1:47:55.120 much like Joe Biden like that and a Chuck Schumer 1:47:55.240 --> 1:47:56.760 like that, but that's not how these guys are whired. 1:47:57.400 --> 1:48:01.080 So you know, we've got what we've got. I guess, okay, 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:05.160 let's talk about Newsom. I live in California. I've certainly 1:48:05.320 --> 1:48:08.680 met him. Thought he was an empty suit. I mean, 1:48:08.760 --> 1:48:11.639 I you know, like my grandmother would be fine if 1:48:11.800 --> 1:48:15.400 Roosevelt was president forever. I felt that Jerry Brown could 1:48:15.479 --> 1:48:17.639 run the state forever, but needle to say the law 1:48:17.760 --> 1:48:21.960 does not allow him to. However, Ever, since the incident 1:48:22.080 --> 1:48:25.760 during uh lockdown when he went to the restaurant and 1:48:25.800 --> 1:48:29.600 a couple of other faux paws, he has become very aggressive, 1:48:29.800 --> 1:48:33.120 not only in his own state but with deciantis, etcetera. 1:48:34.280 --> 1:48:36.519 This is sort of a three part question or as 1:48:36.560 --> 1:48:39.720 many parts I'm gonna whip out here. Is Biden gonna run? 1:48:40.560 --> 1:48:44.240 Could Newsom win? And his Newsom the of the candidate. 1:48:46.520 --> 1:48:50.080 I'm assuming the Biden is not going to run just 1:48:50.200 --> 1:48:53.600 because of his age. O. Wait, so that's but that 1:48:53.800 --> 1:48:56.559 is your belief that he's not going to run. That's 1:48:56.640 --> 1:48:59.240 my belief. I mean, I don't talk about it much 1:48:59.280 --> 1:49:02.360 on the air because I know that once a president, 1:49:03.400 --> 1:49:05.479 once it's clear that the president is not going to run, 1:49:05.520 --> 1:49:08.639 he starts losing power and becomes lame duck. And that's 1:49:08.680 --> 1:49:10.960 why Biden's not going to acknowledge that. But I'd be 1:49:11.040 --> 1:49:14.599 surprised if he runs again. And I think his age 1:49:14.600 --> 1:49:19.080 would be a a problem for him if he runs again. Um, 1:49:19.360 --> 1:49:22.560 with regard to Newsom, I you know, whether he is 1:49:22.960 --> 1:49:27.160 the kind of Justin Trudeau, of of of the United States, 1:49:27.520 --> 1:49:30.479 because there's been a lot of comparisons there. Um. You know, 1:49:30.560 --> 1:49:32.400 time will tell I don't live in California, so I 1:49:32.400 --> 1:49:35.040 don't know him as well as you know I know, 1:49:35.160 --> 1:49:38.080 for example, politicians in Oregon. And I'm not talking about 1:49:38.120 --> 1:49:40.120 personally knowing, but just you know in the in my 1:49:40.280 --> 1:49:44.400 newspaper every day. Um. But the thing that I Knewsom 1:49:44.439 --> 1:49:47.840 has figured out, which I think is brilliant. Uh. And 1:49:48.040 --> 1:49:51.080 and it's you know, something that most good politicians know 1:49:52.120 --> 1:49:56.920 is that it is a lesson that I learned when 1:49:57.000 --> 1:50:00.240 I wanted to write novels. I've written probably seven or 1:50:00.280 --> 1:50:02.240 eight now was two and more published. They're just terrible. 1:50:02.240 --> 1:50:06.880 I'm a lousy fiction writer. But um, I attended a 1:50:06.920 --> 1:50:10.479 workshop in Hawaii back in the seventies on how to 1:50:10.520 --> 1:50:14.360 write novels. And this this famous New York Times bestselling 1:50:14.400 --> 1:50:19.240 novelist got up and he said, your hero is not 1:50:19.479 --> 1:50:22.320 the most important character in your book. Your hero is 1:50:22.360 --> 1:50:23.920 not where you need to spend most of the time. 1:50:24.040 --> 1:50:26.200 And this is the biggest mistake that people make, is 1:50:26.240 --> 1:50:28.960 spending all their time on their hero. He said, Uh, 1:50:29.800 --> 1:50:32.400 your hero is only as good as your anti hero. 1:50:33.360 --> 1:50:36.120 You're good guy can only be as good as your 1:50:36.160 --> 1:50:38.360 bad guy, and the goodness of your good guy is 1:50:38.520 --> 1:50:42.720 literally defined by your bad guy. Clarice, you know, in 1:50:42.760 --> 1:50:45.720 the FBI would have been just another FBI agent if 1:50:45.760 --> 1:50:49.120 it wasn't for Hannibal lector Superman would have just been 1:50:49.160 --> 1:50:51.960 a guy who stops robberies at the seven eleven, if 1:50:52.000 --> 1:50:55.599 it wasn't for the Joker, or you know, you filling 1:50:55.640 --> 1:50:59.519 the the anti anti hero. So the you know, and 1:50:59.600 --> 1:51:02.479 this this is true in storytelling, but it's also true 1:51:02.520 --> 1:51:05.720 in politics that you know, you can only be as 1:51:05.760 --> 1:51:09.880 good as your opponent is evil. And so I think, 1:51:10.160 --> 1:51:12.639 you know, if Newsom has picked out the most evil 1:51:12.720 --> 1:51:16.160 Republican out there who actually has a chance of playing 1:51:16.200 --> 1:51:18.280 in the political game for some time, I think Trump 1:51:18.439 --> 1:51:21.519 is out of the picture now, and that's de Santis, 1:51:22.120 --> 1:51:25.240 and I think that that's a proper evaluation. And then 1:51:25.360 --> 1:51:27.479 has decided, Okay, I'm going to pick a fight with 1:51:27.560 --> 1:51:31.479 this guy, and I'm gonna I'm gonna beat him because 1:51:32.040 --> 1:51:34.160 and I'm going to use him as my foil to 1:51:34.280 --> 1:51:38.920 demonstrate my goodness against his evil. Then I think that's 1:51:39.000 --> 1:51:42.920 brilliant politics, and I encourage him to do more of it. Okay, 1:51:43.000 --> 1:51:48.280 to Sciantis, just siantis evidences his education. He seems to 1:51:48.640 --> 1:51:51.840 be thinking about what he's doing, as opposed to even 1:51:51.920 --> 1:51:55.240 somebody like Ted Cruz has elite degrees but is not 1:51:55.439 --> 1:51:59.240 in touch with reality. Everybody who deals with on the 1:51:59.320 --> 1:52:03.080 inside said, he's not unlikable, as you did. If you 1:52:03.200 --> 1:52:07.679 take Trump off the table, is the Santis a viable 1:52:07.760 --> 1:52:14.280 winning candidate in urans? I think it's possible. I don't 1:52:15.960 --> 1:52:17.680 you know. Again, I don't live in Florida, but you know, 1:52:17.760 --> 1:52:20.880 I've certainly been observing to Santis a lot lately. My 1:52:21.040 --> 1:52:23.600 understanding is that he's a little bit of a of 1:52:23.760 --> 1:52:28.439 a kind of an aspect kind of character that you know, 1:52:29.080 --> 1:52:32.360 he doesn't pick up social cues very effectively. He's not 1:52:32.600 --> 1:52:36.880 socially very competent. Um, he's brilliant. He lives in his head. 1:52:37.080 --> 1:52:40.120 He's got a super high i q. Um and that 1:52:41.240 --> 1:52:44.439 therefore he's not doing what he's doing out of a 1:52:44.560 --> 1:52:47.200 fire in his belly. That he's doing what he's doing 1:52:47.280 --> 1:52:54.920 out of carefully constructed calculation. And UM, I'm not sure 1:52:54.960 --> 1:52:56.800 how far that can take you. I I think it 1:52:56.840 --> 1:52:59.200 will get you someplace, but I'm not sure how long 1:52:59.240 --> 1:53:02.800 it will last. Um. Trump did a really good job 1:53:02.880 --> 1:53:07.360 of adopting or or holding you know, his racist rants 1:53:07.400 --> 1:53:11.519 and stuff about immigrants and things like that, black people, etcetera. Um, 1:53:11.760 --> 1:53:14.160 he had the fire in the belly. Bernie Sanders has 1:53:14.200 --> 1:53:17.599 the fire in the belly. Um. Gavin Newsom, I'm assuming 1:53:17.680 --> 1:53:19.680 has the fire in the belly. He certainly seems like it. 1:53:19.760 --> 1:53:21.880 Although like I said, I haven't been paying a lot 1:53:21.920 --> 1:53:26.600 of attention to him until the last year. Um, So 1:53:26.920 --> 1:53:30.120 you know, whether to Santus it's just a cipher, you know, 1:53:30.240 --> 1:53:34.640 whether he is just the the robot du jour. I mean. 1:53:34.680 --> 1:53:36.000 Part of the problem is that a lot of the 1:53:36.120 --> 1:53:39.439 right wing policy positions, outside of the ones on race 1:53:39.479 --> 1:53:41.880 and immigration, which are both really a whole about race, 1:53:43.160 --> 1:53:45.640 Outside of the racist fire in the belly stuff on 1:53:45.720 --> 1:53:48.479 the right, most of their policy positions don't make any 1:53:48.520 --> 1:53:50.800 sense or are so unpopular they don't want to talk about, 1:53:51.479 --> 1:53:55.240 you know, ending abortion, more tax cuts for billionaires, more 1:53:55.320 --> 1:54:00.360 deregulation of industry, more air air pollution from from fossil fuel. Um. 1:54:00.720 --> 1:54:05.560 You know, they literally don't make sense. On top of 1:54:05.680 --> 1:54:10.479 being unpopular, and so you know, the fire in the 1:54:10.520 --> 1:54:13.280 belly races and stuff sells really well, and you know, 1:54:13.320 --> 1:54:16.040 ever since Richard Nixon declared a Southern strategy, that's been 1:54:16.080 --> 1:54:20.720 the go to place for the gop um and and 1:54:20.880 --> 1:54:24.000 that'll carry you a long long way. Um Whether to 1:54:24.080 --> 1:54:26.439 Satis is doing this because he really feels that or 1:54:26.479 --> 1:54:28.240 because he just thinks that's what he has to do, 1:54:28.439 --> 1:54:29.960 that's what he has to say, and hey, you know, 1:54:30.000 --> 1:54:33.120 we'll pick up some immigrants and brownskin people in Texas 1:54:33.200 --> 1:54:37.200 and send them to Martha's vineyard. Uh. I don't know, 1:54:37.320 --> 1:54:39.440 but my sense of it is that he's running a script, 1:54:39.600 --> 1:54:42.320 that he's that he's that he's running a program, as 1:54:42.400 --> 1:54:45.280 it were, and that I think is a is a 1:54:45.320 --> 1:54:54.360 weakness of fallibility and a vulnerability. And I guess we'll 1:54:54.400 --> 1:54:56.720 have to wait and see if if my my analysis 1:54:56.840 --> 1:55:00.360 is right. Okay, let's talk about Trump. Trump's in trouble 1:55:00.400 --> 1:55:04.200 in Georgia. Trump is in trouble about the classified documents 1:55:04.240 --> 1:55:10.160 a maral Lago. There's January six. It's civil uh information 1:55:10.240 --> 1:55:14.480 which is quite damning that was released by New York 1:55:14.600 --> 1:55:20.600 just recently. But that's not criminal. Is he indicted criminally? 1:55:21.760 --> 1:55:24.720 Will he be convicted? Will he ever serve a day 1:55:24.800 --> 1:55:28.280 in jail? And what will be the result of all 1:55:28.360 --> 1:55:33.000 those things come true, I think the answers are yes, yes, no, 1:55:33.160 --> 1:55:38.840 and nothing. Um. I do believe that Donald Trump will 1:55:38.840 --> 1:55:43.240 be indicted criminally. I do believe that he will be convicted. UM. 1:55:43.800 --> 1:55:47.400 And I would be very surprised if he goes to jail. Um. 1:55:47.640 --> 1:55:51.200 We have a real reluctance in this country to send 1:55:51.520 --> 1:55:55.120 wealthy or powerful people to prison. It happens very rarely. 1:55:55.280 --> 1:55:58.400 And when it does happen, um, you know, like Martha Stewart, 1:55:58.440 --> 1:56:01.880 who was not all that powerful or that rich. Um, 1:56:02.080 --> 1:56:04.240 it tends to happen way down on the food chain 1:56:04.480 --> 1:56:11.040 of rich and of wealth and power. And so frankly, 1:56:11.080 --> 1:56:15.040 I I think Trump is just going to fade into obscurity. UM. 1:56:15.840 --> 1:56:18.760 I could be wrong, but I I think that, you know, 1:56:19.000 --> 1:56:23.040 the jig is up. Okay, so we have the primary 1:56:23.240 --> 1:56:27.320 with you know, primaries are long off, but starting in 1:56:27.360 --> 1:56:36.480 the spring, people start to run, and many prognosticators, many educated, say, 1:56:36.800 --> 1:56:39.880 if he runs, he gets the nomination. You do not 1:56:40.040 --> 1:56:47.920 agree with that, Trump, Yeah, uh, yeah, I don't. I don't. 1:56:48.200 --> 1:56:52.520 I don't think that. Well, let me let me recalibrate 1:56:52.600 --> 1:56:56.240 that answer. If he was running in a Republican primary, 1:56:56.520 --> 1:57:02.919 that where the entire Republican Party be on just the rabid, fanatic, racist, 1:57:03.480 --> 1:57:07.720 neo fascist base was voting. I think that, you know, 1:57:07.920 --> 1:57:10.560 there are a couple of politicians to Santa's at the 1:57:10.560 --> 1:57:11.960 top that list who could give him a run for 1:57:12.000 --> 1:57:13.920 his money. I think to Santa's can still give him 1:57:13.920 --> 1:57:17.920 a run for his money. Um. The way that are 1:57:18.360 --> 1:57:20.920 the way that our primary system is set up. Um. 1:57:21.800 --> 1:57:24.960 And you know, particularly given the primary elections typically don't 1:57:25.040 --> 1:57:28.520 happen in the in a in a in an environment 1:57:28.560 --> 1:57:33.240 where anything else of consequences on the ballot. Uh. Thus 1:57:33.360 --> 1:57:36.320 only the real true believers and the the hardcore fanatics 1:57:36.360 --> 1:57:41.960 show up. Works the Trump's benefit. But I would be 1:57:42.160 --> 1:57:48.120 astonished if he runs. I think that, um, he's he 1:57:48.200 --> 1:57:50.480 would have to in order to comply. I mean, this 1:57:50.560 --> 1:57:52.520 guy is raised a half a billion dollars since he 1:57:52.640 --> 1:57:55.800 left office. He's got all these routes who are just 1:57:55.920 --> 1:57:59.480 throwing money at him, um, many of them, probably most 1:57:59.560 --> 1:58:03.720 of them really, and he's just draining their banks, bank accounts. 1:58:03.800 --> 1:58:07.200 It's the most successful, profitable grift he's probably ever run 1:58:07.280 --> 1:58:10.160 in his entire life. And he would have to stop 1:58:10.240 --> 1:58:12.160 doing that if he runs for president. He would have to. 1:58:12.320 --> 1:58:13.840 He would have to clean up his act. He'd had 1:58:13.840 --> 1:58:16.080 to start being accountable to the federal to the Federal 1:58:16.120 --> 1:58:19.400 Elections Commission. Um, you know, there are rules, there are laws, 1:58:19.480 --> 1:58:22.040 there are things you have to comply with. He got 1:58:22.080 --> 1:58:24.760 away with not complying with them last time, in large 1:58:24.800 --> 1:58:28.440 part because nobody took him seriously. The Obama administration wasn't 1:58:28.760 --> 1:58:34.160 prosecuting him for his FEC violations. Early and then throughout 1:58:34.160 --> 1:58:38.720 his presidency, he basically controlled, you know, the government, and 1:58:38.880 --> 1:58:41.200 the Federal Election Commission has three Republicans on it that 1:58:41.240 --> 1:58:43.240 are so hardcore that they just, you know, they just 1:58:43.440 --> 1:58:47.560 froze the FEC throughout that four years, they were incapable 1:58:47.600 --> 1:58:51.000 of doing anything. And I'm not sure to what extent 1:58:51.080 --> 1:58:56.680 that that's still the case. But um, you know, I 1:58:56.800 --> 1:58:58.640 I just don't think he's willing to give up his 1:58:58.680 --> 1:59:00.160 grift to run for president. I think he's going to 1:59:00.200 --> 1:59:02.560 continue to talk about it because it gets him money. 1:59:03.560 --> 1:59:06.680 But I think that that that by by the end 1:59:06.720 --> 1:59:12.880 of next year, and certainly by by early uh, we 1:59:12.960 --> 1:59:15.840 will know whether my analysis is right. But I just 1:59:15.920 --> 1:59:19.360 don't think that he's going to be the guy. Okay, 1:59:19.480 --> 1:59:26.800 Nate Silver famously called the election accurately. Since then, despite 1:59:26.880 --> 1:59:31.080 their protestations, the polls have been wildly inaccurate. Someone will say, well, 1:59:31.560 --> 1:59:34.440 it was in the margin of error even though Biden 1:59:34.520 --> 1:59:38.320 one there was stronger support for Trump than the polls said. 1:59:38.760 --> 1:59:41.520 We've been listening to this canard that the party in 1:59:41.640 --> 1:59:46.160 power always loses seats in Congress in the mid term. 1:59:46.640 --> 1:59:50.160 Yet we have the a portion. Now they're saying, well, 1:59:50.680 --> 1:59:53.040 you know, the polls are accurate. What is you were 1:59:53.280 --> 1:59:58.520 feeling about the mid term elections, primarily in the House 1:59:58.600 --> 2:00:01.240 and Senate. My sense of it is that it's going 2:00:01.320 --> 2:00:03.960 to be a Democratic blowout, in large part because of 2:00:04.720 --> 2:00:06.640 because of abortion, and because of a large number of 2:00:06.680 --> 2:00:08.440 women and young people who are signing up to vote 2:00:08.520 --> 2:00:12.200 right now. Um, with the head of polls, you know, 2:00:12.280 --> 2:00:15.360 I know that polls had faced a real challenge. Um. 2:00:15.600 --> 2:00:18.280 You know, my phone, I have it just set so 2:00:18.400 --> 2:00:20.760 that if somebody calls, it's not my contact, it just 2:00:20.800 --> 2:00:23.160 doesn't ring. I mean, you know, it's getting harder and 2:00:23.200 --> 2:00:27.720 harder for pollsters to do their business and uh and 2:00:27.960 --> 2:00:32.400 and find you know, a genuinely representative cross section. And 2:00:33.640 --> 2:00:36.320 so you know, I get it that they're they're kind 2:00:36.320 --> 2:00:40.760 of in a crisis. But my but you know, no 2:00:41.000 --> 2:00:43.280 analyst for polse But but I do think that the 2:00:43.320 --> 2:00:45.960 Democrats are going to do really well as fall knock 2:00:46.000 --> 2:00:49.680 good and finally, and you know, it's amazing power of 2:00:49.760 --> 2:00:54.600 one person who challenges the legitimacy of the presidential election. 2:00:55.040 --> 2:00:59.680 There's been all these voters suppression laws and you know, 2:01:00.040 --> 2:01:02.120 taking away the rights of the people as we don't 2:01:02.120 --> 2:01:06.960 have to delineate them one by one, but not every Republican. 2:01:07.000 --> 2:01:08.920 There was a story in the New York Times two 2:01:09.040 --> 2:01:11.480 days ago. It was a little confusing. They said these 2:01:11.560 --> 2:01:15.360 Republicans would not guarantee they would accept the results, although 2:01:15.520 --> 2:01:21.600 some literally just didn't respond. What do you anticipate happens 2:01:22.400 --> 2:01:26.640 when Republicans lose in this cycle? Well, they walk away 2:01:26.760 --> 2:01:31.160 like the Democrats did historically did in Virginia last cycle. 2:01:32.040 --> 2:01:36.960 Or is this become a big war. Well, we've seen 2:01:37.040 --> 2:01:40.840 several candidates now that are doing the sort of loser routine. Um, 2:01:41.840 --> 2:01:43.720 you know, I would expect more of that, But I 2:01:43.760 --> 2:01:45.880 don't think it's going to be consequential, Bob, I you 2:01:45.920 --> 2:01:50.360 know the problem. I think it's going to be more 2:01:51.280 --> 2:01:55.040 with the election officials who are who are coming in office. 2:01:55.280 --> 2:01:57.960 Who are clear partisans, and they're basically saying, if our 2:01:58.000 --> 2:02:00.400 party doesn't win, then there was cheating in we're gonna 2:02:00.520 --> 2:02:04.760 we're gonna refuse to validate the election. I'm I'm far 2:02:04.840 --> 2:02:08.920 more concerned about UM, you know, the Secretary of State 2:02:08.960 --> 2:02:12.640 of Arizona or the local election officials in the various 2:02:12.680 --> 2:02:16.080 counties than I am about Carry Lake, you know, pouting 2:02:16.160 --> 2:02:20.920 if she loses the election. So, assuming that those fears, 2:02:21.400 --> 2:02:24.040 do you think if those fears are real, well, will 2:02:24.120 --> 2:02:29.160 those fears activate and become consequential. I think it's possible. 2:02:29.320 --> 2:02:31.640 I think it's very possible. I don't think it's going 2:02:31.720 --> 2:02:34.320 to be a national crisis. I think it's going to 2:02:34.400 --> 2:02:38.000 be hyperlocal. I suspect it's going to happen and probably 2:02:38.080 --> 2:02:43.360 four or five states and maybe more. UM and Uh, 2:02:43.640 --> 2:02:45.400 there's gonna be a lot of pushback, and I think 2:02:45.440 --> 2:02:47.600 ultimately it's going to work to their disadvantage in a 2:02:47.680 --> 2:02:50.440 big way, much like the Dodd's decision. It's going to 2:02:50.520 --> 2:02:54.440 be you know, the visible overreach, the clear sort of 2:02:54.520 --> 2:03:00.360 losersm UM is over time going to harm them and 2:03:01.240 --> 2:03:03.560 tarnish their brand rather than help them. I mean, you know, 2:03:03.840 --> 2:03:06.040 they'll do well with their true believers, their small base 2:03:06.080 --> 2:03:09.800 of true believers. But uh that basis I believe shrinking 2:03:09.880 --> 2:03:13.080 right now rather than growing. Tom. I want to thank 2:03:13.160 --> 2:03:15.880 you for taking the time. You've certainly made me think 2:03:16.480 --> 2:03:19.120 and we're aligned politically and great to hear who you 2:03:19.240 --> 2:03:22.720 are underneath the surface. I know you have to write 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:26.280 your opinion piece. You have another radio show tomorrow, so 2:03:26.680 --> 2:03:28.560 thanks again for taking the time to talk to me 2:03:28.640 --> 2:03:31.400 in my audience. Bob. It's been a pleasure and and 2:03:32.800 --> 2:03:36.560 it's rare that that I'm interviewed by somebody who has 2:03:36.640 --> 2:03:40.400 the insights, the thoughtfulness and the depth that you have. 2:03:40.680 --> 2:03:42.960 And I've enjoyed it. I hope it's useful for the 2:03:43.000 --> 2:03:46.160 people who listen to thank you. I'm sure it will be. 2:03:46.680 --> 2:03:49.440 Until next time. This is Bob left sets