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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: By the time I was ten, I had to find

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Speaker 2: myself in such a manner that I thought I had

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Speaker 2: no possibility to ever be happy, no possibility of ever

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Speaker 2: having a normal life. And I thought all the things

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Speaker 2: that happened to me were things I deserve, that I

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Speaker 2: came from bad people. I was bad people. I would

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Speaker 2: do bad things and my life would end bad.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the

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Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for

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Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some

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Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all

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Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many great true crime stories,

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Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you that those stories

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Speaker 1: with details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked

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Speaker 1: presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make,

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Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories

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Speaker 1: behind the stories. Author David Crowe wrote a memoir called

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Speaker 1: The Pale Face Lie about his father. Thurston Crowe, was

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Speaker 1: a suspected killer who claimed to be a Native American

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Speaker 1: while he raised his children on various reservations. David's story

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Speaker 1: is a survival story. But this turned out to be

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Speaker 1: a pretty controversial book. And I'll just let David explain why.

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Speaker 1: So tell me where you were, where you were born,

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Speaker 1: and what your environment was like.

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Speaker 2: So I was born in nineteen fifty two, and I

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Speaker 2: was born about a year after my dad got out

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Speaker 2: of San Quentin Penitentiary for crime really could have gotten

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Speaker 2: into death penalty. He fled to the Navajo Indian Reservation

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Speaker 2: for two reasons. One, you could lie about being a

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Speaker 2: violent fella no one checked, just a very much needed

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Speaker 2: skilled labor. In the fifties and sixties, they didn't have

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Speaker 2: people that had the kind of education and background. And second,

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Speaker 2: he thought his accomplice would never look for him there

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Speaker 2: because he would be impossible to find. He was right

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Speaker 2: on both counts, and my first memory is he would

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Speaker 2: drive me out into the frozen tundra of the reservation

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Speaker 2: and spin the car around endlessly because he is kind

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Speaker 2: of like being in a Ferris wheel on the ground,

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Speaker 2: and he thought it was funny, and I did too,

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Speaker 2: even I'm bouncing all over the car, hitting my head.

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Speaker 2: But my first memory, and this is really where the

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Speaker 2: book begins, is we have to get rid of your mother.

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Speaker 2: She's crazy and if you grow up with her, you'll

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Speaker 2: be crazy too. We have to get rid of her,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to need you to go along.

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Speaker 1: He is right now when you're a young boy, fun dad,

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Speaker 1: without really having any context of what really that means.

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Speaker 2: Well, he was super powerful, very strong. He knew more

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Speaker 2: than anybody else, at least we always believed that. But

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Speaker 2: even early he scared me, and he wanted to because

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Speaker 2: he really wanted me to feel like he was the

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Speaker 2: only force I needed to believe in. Like he used

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Speaker 2: to tie me to a tree so I wouldn't run off.

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Speaker 2: Of course, he wanted me to try to get out

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Speaker 2: and run off. He would throw me up in the

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Speaker 2: air and catch me, but sometimes he'd let me hit

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Speaker 2: the ground, just because he wanted me to only trust

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Speaker 2: him and to believe that crime was the right thing.

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Speaker 2: And that's the law of the jungle. And you know,

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Speaker 2: everybody's your enemy, and you got to look after yourself.

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Speaker 2: And you've got to live by the code of violence.

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Speaker 2: And that's how he felt about life.

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Speaker 1: Where did your dad come from? How did he turn

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Speaker 1: out like that? Let's start there. His name is Thurston Crewe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he had a tough life, you know.

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Speaker 2: He grew up in the dust bowl and his father

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Speaker 2: was illiterate. The only time his father ever left Texas

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Speaker 2: to going to World War One, and he bought for

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Speaker 2: two or three years, got himself Mustard Gas came home.

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Speaker 2: But he was a very angry guy and he lost

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Speaker 2: everything in the depression. In the dust bowl, my dad

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Speaker 2: lived with his mom and dad in cars outside under bridges.

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Speaker 2: He had to pick cotton twelve hours a day. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: his dad beat him with a wet rope. So my

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Speaker 2: dad grew up very violent, very angry. He did something

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Speaker 2: of extreme violence when he thought someone crossed him. And

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Speaker 2: that's how I wound up in San Quentin.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about San Quentin. So you're not even born yet.

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Speaker 1: He meets your mom, so they have a courtship. Is

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Speaker 1: that what happens?

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Speaker 2: He was nineteen, she was fifteen. I mean it is

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Speaker 2: right after the end of World War two, nineteen forty six.

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Speaker 2: My mom got pregnant. Immediately a guy made a stupid

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Speaker 2: comment about how pretty she was and wishes he could

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Speaker 2: date her. My dad comes home, hears about it, gets

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Speaker 2: his boss, who's his best friend, and so they lord

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Speaker 2: of the guy who did it out and beat him.

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Speaker 2: But what they thought was his death, and he would

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Speaker 2: have led out and died, but his wife found him

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Speaker 2: with just a few minutes to go, or else I

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Speaker 2: probably would not be here. Dad thought that he did

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Speaker 2: the right thing. You know, if somebody says something wrong

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Speaker 2: to you, you beat him to death. If somebody crosses you,

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Speaker 2: you fight until one of you dies. I mean, he

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Speaker 2: just grew up believing that feeling that. I don't think

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Speaker 2: he ever changed. That's very very intelligent guy, amazing I

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Speaker 2: but he had a chip on his shoulder of the

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Speaker 2: size of a building, and an inferiority complex you can't

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Speaker 2: even imagine, and this profound sense that the world had

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Speaker 2: done him wrong, had screwed him, somebody stole his future,

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Speaker 2: and I think hated his mom and dad because he

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Speaker 2: felt like they did that to him. But those were very,

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Speaker 2: very tough times. No one had anything, and he was

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Speaker 2: just a very angry guy from the start. He loved

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Speaker 2: to fight. He would tell me about other murders that

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Speaker 2: he had committed he got away with. He would tell

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Speaker 2: me stories about what the prisoners would talk about in

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Speaker 2: the yard in San Quentin. He would tell me about

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Speaker 2: all these guys that killed people and got away with it.

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Speaker 1: And he's telling you this as kind of a veiled threat.

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Speaker 1: You know, he obviously is a very powerful person.

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Speaker 2: He was He was built like an NFL linebacker. He

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Speaker 2: was very intimidating. Whenever anybody confronted him, if they didn't withdraw,

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Speaker 2: he would have beat him to their death. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he had no off button, and he had no sense

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Speaker 2: of right and wrong and no sense of letting something

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Speaker 2: go or if somebody cut him off. You know, we've

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Speaker 2: all had this, let me cut you off. Maybe they

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Speaker 2: give you the figure, they do something stupid, and ninety

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Speaker 2: nine percent of us will let it go, drop our

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Speaker 2: car back and avoid people like that. He'd follow the

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Speaker 2: guy home and try to kill him and maybe his

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Speaker 2: dog and maybe burn the house down. I mean, he

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Speaker 2: just was a guy who felt like, if you cross me,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna get even plus some and there's no end

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Speaker 2: to this game.

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Speaker 1: You grew up in a reservation, is that. Don you

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Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about that too. Where we

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Speaker 1: are in time, with what location, and what the reservation

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Speaker 1: life was like for you.

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Speaker 2: Reservation was a very tough place for me in the beginning.

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Speaker 2: The Pathece light is really a metaphor for the whole book.

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Speaker 2: But Dad told us we were Cherokees. Sister tried to

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Speaker 2: the Navajos, and we grew up believing that. But I

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Speaker 2: could tell my Navajo classmates didn't think it. But it

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Speaker 2: was a tough place, and we lived in a part

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Speaker 2: of the reservation where white people aren't allowed to live.

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Speaker 2: White people allowed to live in these little compounds where

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Speaker 2: doctors and teachers were and they were surrounded by barbed

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Speaker 2: wire and cattleguards. So we grew up inside of that.

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Speaker 2: And the Navjo kids didn't like us. Their parents had

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Speaker 2: been to the boarding schools where their heads were shaved,

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Speaker 2: they had to eat lye soap, and they were told

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Speaker 2: every day, we have to kill the Indian to save

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Speaker 2: the man.

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Speaker 3: I went to school with their kids.

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Speaker 2: Their kids hated us, But what I learned over time,

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Speaker 2: when they knew that I wasn't going to move away,

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Speaker 2: we became friends. Once those Navajo kids started calling me gaggy,

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Speaker 2: which is the Navajo word for crow.

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Speaker 3: I became one of them.

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Speaker 2: It took a long time to get there, but once

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Speaker 2: I did, they treated me exactly like I was one

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Speaker 2: of them. I don't think I've ever been treated better

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Speaker 2: by anyone anywhere in my entire life.

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Speaker 1: So was your father a Native American? Was your mother

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Speaker 1: a Native American? Or neither?

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Speaker 2: The answer has to be the truth, which is no.

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Speaker 2: But one of the things that this book is about,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people I think can identify this.

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Speaker 2: Families grew up with mis you know, many of them

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Speaker 2: completely false beliefs that are completely false, and assumptions about

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Speaker 2: life that are completely false. And Dad wanted to believe

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Speaker 2: he was a Cherokee because he didn't want to believe

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Speaker 2: and forgive my expression, that he came from white trash

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Speaker 2: depression era dust ball.

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Speaker 3: He didn't want to believe that.

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Speaker 2: And the Cherokees were powerful warriors and people he respected

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Speaker 2: and identified, but they were also a minority that had

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Speaker 2: been persecuted, picked on, and he identified with all of

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Speaker 2: that and turned himself into a Cherokee in his head.

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Speaker 2: And over time I learned he was lying about that

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Speaker 2: and other things because when he would lie, his voice

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Speaker 2: got real loud, his eyes bugged out, his chest would

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Speaker 2: puff out, and you could tell that was pure lives.

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Speaker 2: But he projected himself into that as a way of

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Speaker 2: feeling sorry for himself, as a way of feeling superior

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Speaker 2: even though people didn't treat him that way, and as

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Speaker 2: a way of kind of being a living martyr.

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Speaker 1: So he sounds like it. So he met your mom,

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Speaker 1: and your mom it sounded like how mental health struggles.

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Speaker 3: Is that right, very serious mental health problem. Believe it

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Speaker 3: or not. She's still alive.

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Speaker 2: My mom is almost ninety one, and I would say

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Speaker 2: she's like a somewhere but six and ten in her

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Speaker 2: mentality with eighty years experience at being very angry and

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Speaker 2: very much a child.

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Speaker 3: But when she was young, she was beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And my dad thought that when he met her at fifteen,

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Speaker 2: And sometimes that's all it takes. But then everything unravels

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Speaker 2: when they couldn't have been more opposite in terms of

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Speaker 2: their mentality and what he wanted out of life. And

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Speaker 2: my mom had a very very tough life and he

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Speaker 2: was a huge reason.

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Speaker 3: For a bunch of it.

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Speaker 1: Well let's start with that then.

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Speaker 2: So in the beginning, I just thought he was this

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Speaker 2: super powerful guy. What he was teaching me is what

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Speaker 2: every dad taught every kid, right, which is get away

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Speaker 2: with whatever you can trust me, and if he's something

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Speaker 2: wrong that I don't like, I'll beat you to death.

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Speaker 2: And if you do something makes me proud of clap.

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Speaker 2: And so we kind of grew up in this crazy environment.

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Speaker 2: I guess by the time I was six or seven,

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Speaker 2: I could tell some of it was lies, because I

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Speaker 2: could always tell his persona changed entirely, and that always

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Speaker 2: bothered me, so that people who worked with them were

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Speaker 2: afraid of him, but they also respected his brain power

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Speaker 2: because he had a lot. But by the way, what

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Speaker 2: time I hit nine, ten years old, he was teaching

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Speaker 2: me how to steal tools from the Navajos and for

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Speaker 2: me to be his lookout. He was explaining to me

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Speaker 2: why sometimes killing is the only answer. You have to

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Speaker 2: live by your own rules. And eventually start telling me

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Speaker 2: stories about San Quentin and about murders and about violence

220
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Speaker 2: he had done, but always it was justified, right, And

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Speaker 2: you'd say, an army is just a big group of murders,

222
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Speaker 2: The FBI is just organized murders CIA.

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Speaker 1: And you're on a reservation, right, in California.

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Speaker 3: Is that where you all were Arizona, New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Your father was saying you're Cherokee. Do people realize that

226
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Speaker 1: he is not Native American when you guys are living

227
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Speaker 1: on this reservation?

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Speaker 3: Two or three theories?

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Speaker 2: I think yes. The Navajos knew. They're smart people. If

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Speaker 2: you had a skill set they needed, they would tolerate

231
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Speaker 2: darn near anything. And so that was smart. And he

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Speaker 2: worked hard and people put up with that. I don't

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Speaker 2: think it takes you long to know when you have

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Speaker 2: a strong, violent person who's going to get in a

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Speaker 2: fight with you if you disagree. Read and he wound

236
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Speaker 2: up pushing a lot of what I think legitimate criticism

237
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Speaker 2: away because it isn't worth it right stay away.

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Speaker 1: Are your father and mother married? Are they together at

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Speaker 1: this point? And how is he treating her well?

240
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Speaker 2: He's sitting her terrible. They stayed together till he tried

241
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Speaker 2: to kill her and left her homeless. My mother was

242
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Speaker 2: just a poor, wounded soul. She would have stayed with him,

243
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 2: but she really had nothing going in her life, and

244
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Speaker 2: she saw him as the only thing right. And she

245
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,559
Speaker 2: had four kids and she had a very very tragic

246
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Speaker 2: life and very very sad life, and it's still sad,

247
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Speaker 2: long suffering in every way.

248
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Speaker 1: So tell me what is the next big event. You're

249
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Speaker 1: six or seven. Your dad's a liar, your mom is miserable.

250
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 1: Your dad is throwing his weight around everywhere. But he's

251
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Speaker 1: valued on the reservation, which is why he's there. When

252
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Speaker 1: is the first time he involves you in his crimes.

253
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Speaker 2: We start going to warehouses on the reservation. These are

254
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Speaker 2: huge government quants at huts made out of aluminum side material,

255
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Speaker 2: and he is the safety officer and he keeps charge

256
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Speaker 2: of inventory. So he would wind up stealing expensive tools

257
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,719
Speaker 2: like electric tools and power saws and things like that

258
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Speaker 2: that were really very valuable, and he would fence them

259
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Speaker 2: to a group of Mexican men who then sold them underground.

260
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Speaker 2: And there was so much inventory on reservation. There's so

261
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,839
Speaker 2: many warehouses that he could steal stuff from various ones

262
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:27,880
Speaker 2: and no one ever figured it out. They didn't keep

263
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Speaker 2: good inventory, and he never stole so much from any

264
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 2: one place that it was noticed. But that was his lookout.

265
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Speaker 2: We had a signal if somebody was coming along where

266
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Speaker 2: you're looking at a flat area that might be miles

267
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Speaker 2: and miles from the nearest town. So if a car's

268
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Speaker 2: coming or truck's coming way, you know it is you

269
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 2: see the dust. If I thought a truck or a

270
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Speaker 2: car looked dangerous or something to think about, I threw

271
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Speaker 2: one rock up against the warehouse, and that just meant beware.

272
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Speaker 3: I might need to signal you that something's wrong.

273
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Speaker 2: If I threw two rocks and stop what you're doing

274
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Speaker 2: and pay attention and get to the door. If I

275
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Speaker 2: threw three rocks in a row, it meant run for

276
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Speaker 2: the car. We've got trouble. So he've taught me this system,

277
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Speaker 2: and he taught me how to look for licensed tag

278
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Speaker 2: numbers and how to look for suspicious cars. And really

279
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Speaker 2: he was just a crime mentor. And then over time

280
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 2: he would tell me about murders he knew, about murders

281
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,720
Speaker 2: he committed. And of course all this fascinated me, because

282
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Speaker 2: I'm a kid. I learned how to trick him into

283
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,960
Speaker 2: telling me things he didn't want to tell me, Like

284
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Speaker 2: I would know how to say something that would make

285
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,200
Speaker 2: him say something else. And if he was in a

286
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 2: talkative mood, he would tell you incredible things about.

287
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Speaker 3: What he had done, and they were all bad.

288
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Speaker 2: He never told anybody else in our family, But he

289
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 2: and I were crime buddies, and we spent lots of

290
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,520
Speaker 2: time alone in the car because they're huge distances between

291
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 2: these warehouses and a reservation, and a lot of times

292
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 2: I would spend eight, ten, twelve hours a day with

293
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Speaker 2: him going around the reservation stealing tools.

294
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Speaker 1: So then when do things ask when do things become

295
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,839
Speaker 1: more violent? How old are you when you're the lookout man?

296
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,120
Speaker 2: Started at about eight, and this went on for a

297
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,640
Speaker 2: long time. So one day we're driving along this time,

298
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,080
Speaker 2: my younger brother and sister in the car, and we

299
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,480
Speaker 2: pull up to a trailer which turned out to be

300
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,120
Speaker 2: a gas station right on the reservation. You've got these

301
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 2: especially then, like you know, kind of a rusted out trailer,

302
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 2: two pumps out front, and that's a gas station. So

303
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 2: we pull up to this gas station and there's chicken

304
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 2: wire in front of the trailer, and there's a giant

305
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 2: black bear trapped in this chicken wire cage. And the

306
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 2: guy spray painted above the trailer on wood black bear

307
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 2: gas station, Right, this is some sort of tourist attraction.

308
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 2: We pull up to the station and at that point

309
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,320
Speaker 2: I'm used to reading my dad's face for clues of violence,

310
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Speaker 2: because you've got to catch him before he gets extremely angry.

311
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Speaker 3: If he's already angry.

312
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 2: The blood vessel between his eyebrows bulges where his eyes

313
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 2: are bults out. He's too mad, you can't stop him.

314
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Speaker 2: So I became the master of trying to read his

315
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 2: face and try to see why he was going to

316
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 2: be angry. So we pull up to this gas station

317
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Speaker 2: and I see my dad roll up his sleeves, puff

318
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,880
Speaker 2: up his chest. The blood vessel between his eyebrows looks

319
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 2: like a garden hose, and his eyes were bugged out

320
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 2: like a Volkswagen, which means he's about to explode. So

321
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 2: I look over and he's in the back and he

322
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 2: gets out wire clippers, and he's really angry that this

323
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 2: poor black bear's been trapped, Like he had more compassion

324
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,080
Speaker 2: for animals than people. He's just strange guy. So he

325
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 2: goes to let the bear out, and the bear's paw

326
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,720
Speaker 2: gets through the chicken wire and the man who owned

327
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,160
Speaker 2: the gas station, he runs out, sees what my dad's doing,

328
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 2: starts screaming at it. Leave my bar alone. So he

329
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 2: runs towards my dad. My dad hit him right in

330
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Speaker 2: the nose, so hard, busted his nose, busted his glasses,

331
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 2: knocked him upside down, picked him up with one hand

332
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,680
Speaker 2: and held him up to the bear claw and said,

333
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to come back in an hour. If that

334
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 2: bear's still here, he's going to eat your fat dumb behind.

335
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 2: The guy on the ground drove off, comes back, Bear's gone.

336
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 2: The trailer's padlock they never opened again. Stuff like that

337
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 2: happened every single day. So Dad was just extremely angry,

338
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 2: and he was going to confront you. If you were

339
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,680
Speaker 2: in the wrong place with him, you're going to get

340
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,080
Speaker 2: in a fight. And so this happened all the time.

341
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 2: You start realizing how violent he is, do.

342
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 1: You start committing crimes besides just being the lookout guy.

343
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 2: What happens then is he starts telling me that there's

344
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,080
Speaker 2: a guy from his past who's looking to kill him.

345
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,960
Speaker 2: He's really not afraid of his accomplice, but he's very

346
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 2: afraid of being ambush. We would go into nearby town

347
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,760
Speaker 2: on the reservation, and he would make me go through

348
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 2: the parking lots, look at all the license tags and

349
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,400
Speaker 2: tell me which ones don't belong, Look at vehicles, tell

350
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 2: me which ones don't belong, look at people, and tell

351
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 2: me which ones look suspicious, which one just look like

352
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 2: they're passing through town or Navajo's family shopping. And he

353
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 2: trained me to look whenever we go in to public place.

354
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 2: He never sat near a window, and he always looked

355
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 2: at the door, and there was always a second exit.

356
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,439
Speaker 2: And my job was to case the little town. And

357
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 2: I brew learned he's looking to make sure his accomplice

358
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,119
Speaker 2: hadn't tracked him down. He's never worried about it in

359
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,320
Speaker 2: like real rural area, you know where we on the reservation,

360
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,960
Speaker 2: but in town, he is very worried about it. He

361
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,680
Speaker 2: started telling me more and more about his criminal life,

362
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 2: and of course he's giving me the rosy view of it,

363
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,240
Speaker 2: never what really happened. But I've become very much aware

364
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 2: that he has killed a couple of guys in fits,

365
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 2: and that he was in prison for something that was really,

366
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,760
Speaker 2: really bad, and that he's got a guy who's trying

367
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 2: to come kill him, and I've become his confidant. The

368
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,160
Speaker 2: real fear I had with him was one we might

369
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 2: run into the accomplice and either have to kill him

370
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,520
Speaker 2: or get killed, right, I mean, sort of the way

371
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,680
Speaker 2: Dad looked at it. But he became more and more

372
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,199
Speaker 2: aggressive when he thought people crossed him, and so they

373
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,720
Speaker 2: were more and more violent upbursts. I would say, and

374
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 2: you're in a place where there's really not a.

375
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 3: Ton of law. There's a lot of problems.

376
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 2: A lot of times he got away with these confrontations, right,

377
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 2: you could kind of get away with it, But I

378
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,720
Speaker 2: was always scared that somebody would kill him, or that

379
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 2: we would be in a fight that we were going

380
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 2: to lose, or there's going to be a body on

381
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 2: the ground.

382
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 1: There was no one on the reservation, a teacher or

383
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 1: anyone who you could confide in, or did that not

384
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 1: even occur to you at that age.

385
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 2: When somebody is getting beaten within an inch of their life,

386
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 2: you have an extremely violent parent, confiding in them means

387
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 2: that that person will confront your father and you'll get

388
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 2: beaten ten times worse. No one who grows up in

389
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 2: a situation like mine confides in anybody. And you don't

390
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 2: trust adults because the ones you trusted are abusing you

391
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,480
Speaker 2: and they've broken you, and some do. Getting outsider is

392
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 2: just going to get you both killed. And you know

393
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 2: that the Navajo reservation, particularly then, was overwhelmed with problems, right,

394
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:56,879
Speaker 2: there's violence, there's alcoholism, there's incredible poverty, very very tough place.

395
00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 2: When teachers came from the outside, they would get good

396
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 2: pay and an opportunity, and they'd stay a year or two.

397
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 2: They couldn't get out of there fast enough because it's

398
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 2: just a very, very hard place. It's like a rural ghetto.

399
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,880
Speaker 2: I mean, these kids have gone through very hard times.

400
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,119
Speaker 2: And you know, I had a lot of teachers I loved,

401
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 2: I had angels along the way. Some of them knew,

402
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 2: some of them didn't. But no one in their right

403
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 2: mind would get involved with my dad. And there's no

404
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 2: way he's going to lose those kids.

405
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 3: He just not. We had nowhere to go.

406
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,719
Speaker 1: As you got older, though, did you just sort of

407
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 1: lean even more into this lifestyle as you became a

408
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 1: young man.

409
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 2: Well again, you know, he can beat you within an

410
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,919
Speaker 2: inch of your life, and he can also throw you

411
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,920
Speaker 2: on the street, which he threatened many times. It's not

412
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 2: like social services intervene or help you in situations like this.

413
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 3: Maybe different now you know you have nowhere to go.

414
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 2: And I think until I fought back in my own way,

415
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 2: and I think I never did anything so criminal that

416
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 2: it hurt a person physically. I certainly did a lot wrong,

417
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 2: but once I got out of the house, he still

418
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: tried to control me. And a good chunk at the

419
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 2: end of the book is how I ended that and

420
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 2: how I fought back. But I didn't live a perfect life,

421
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 2: and I did a lot wrong. It'd be a much

422
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 2: stronger person than me that could have pulled away from

423
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 2: his grasp. And I'm sure they're out there, But I

424
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 2: honestly tell you, unless you live through it, it's easy

425
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 2: to criticize it. I'm not saying you are. I'm just

426
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 2: saying it's easy to critique it. It's a much different

427
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 2: thing to break free of it, very very different.

428
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,879
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine trying to get out of his grip.

429
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 1: That must have been a nightmare. At what point, as

430
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,120
Speaker 1: a young man, do things become more serious for you

431
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 1: with what he's asking you to do. I'm assuming his

432
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,400
Speaker 1: tasks are becoming a little bit more age appropriate for you,

433
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 1: Is that right? Well?

434
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 3: Lots of changes.

435
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 2: So I'm about fifteen and my dad picks up a stepmother,

436
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 2: the one he later wants to get rid of, and

437
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 2: she's a nurse on the reservation, and she's well educated

438
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 2: from the East she's got property she owns on the

439
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 2: beach in North Carolina. She convinces him that he can

440
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 2: apply for a job with a Bureau of Indian Affairs

441
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 2: in Washington, and she can get a really good job

442
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 2: because she's a nurse, and you know, she's got a

443
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: good college education. So we wind up moving for six months.

444
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 2: We think he gets a training opportunity in a Bureau

445
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 2: of Indian Affairs in.

446
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 3: Downtown d C.

447
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 2: And so we move and I hate it because I

448
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: love the reservation at this point and I know it.

449
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 2: And I get to the East and we're years and

450
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 2: years behind in school. We're very unsophisticated. Nothing makes sense

451
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: to me, and I don't like it. So I think

452
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: we're going to move back. But we go back and

453
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 2: forth between the reservation and the east coast Kensington and Bethestern,

454
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: Maryland for a period of two or three years. But

455
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: we eventually stay in the East. But Dad's crime stuff continues.

456
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: He starts fencing tools with some guy in West Virginia

457
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 2: and it leads to what is clearly a murder when

458
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 2: somebody crosses he and his buddies.

459
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: Can you give us any more information about that? Just

460
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: so people sort of understand the seriousness of your dad's crimes.

461
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 1: That he's not just a petty criminal. He was somebody

462
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: who sounds like committed murder. Can you give us any

463
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 1: more where you feel comfortable talking about that?

464
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 2: Sure, I am, because you don't write a book like

465
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 2: this unless you're willing to do that right.

466
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 3: And I'm no superman.

467
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: I never stood up to him until way at the end,

468
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: when it was either he's going to kill my stepmother

469
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: and drag my sister into this or not. So you know,

470
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody's going to give me an award

471
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 2: for the Red Badge of Courage, but I do think

472
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: I did the right thing when it really counted, so

473
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 2: to give you kind of an overview, So I knew

474
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: that Dad went in and out of the service in

475
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: one year. He was born in nineteen twenty seven. In

476
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: that class. By the time they got through Navy training,

477
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: Japan had surrendered. But he went through all the basic

478
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,199
Speaker 2: military stuff, and he got in a fight in New

479
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: Orleans on leave with the guy, and they went out

480
00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: back and I think Dad beat him to death with

481
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 2: the spare hands, and they found the guy, but the

482
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 2: other people with him, the sailors. It was like one

483
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: of those things where you're going to go out back

484
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: and fight with this guy at three am.

485
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 3: You get what you deserve.

486
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: He would tell me these kinds of stories and two

487
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: or three times where he would repeat the same story

488
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: over and over where he killed somebody.

489
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 3: And then I knew what he did to get in

490
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 3: San Quentin, right.

491
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you're not in a maximum security

492
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: prison unless you really did something that violent, and he did,

493
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 2: so I had picked up pieces of that, So when

494
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: the West Virginia thing came, I knew what he was like,

495
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: and I knew he had killed that guy, and I

496
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 2: knew that he would kill anybody if he thought he

497
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 2: could get away with it.

498
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: Will you give me some more information about that? What

499
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: ends up happening?

500
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: One of the big pieces of this book, one I've

501
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 2: been really criticized for and other people have been so critical.

502
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: I knew Dad was committing crimes when we moved to

503
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 2: the eastern United States. So I'm in my sophomore junior

504
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: year in college. Dad at this point he runs off

505
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 2: with women, different women all the time. My mother was

506
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: long gone, and he banned my stepmother then came back

507
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 2: to her. So he's living with like an eighteen year

508
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: old Indian woman and he's forty three years old. They

509
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: had to bury what you would expect to be a

510
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 2: really saine relationship. He started disappearing and she would call

511
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: me once in a whild school name was Caroline. And

512
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 2: so your dad disappeared for five days in West Virginia.

513
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: I don't know where he is, and these kinds of

514
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: things would go on, and of course these are patterns

515
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: that I'm used to from my life.

516
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 3: Dad would go off and steal a bunch of stuff.

517
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 2: He had safety deposit box and po boxes, and he

518
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: would have me memorize them. So if I disappear, don't

519
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: come back, you need to go find these boxes and

520
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: stuff buried. I mean, we just always played this game,

521
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: right that the world's after you, and if anything happens

522
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: to me, you need to come and they'll give you

523
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: instructions on who to go get and get even with.

524
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 2: He was always like that. One day, this Caroline woman

525
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: called me. She said, your dad's now been gone a

526
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: week and people are calling and breathing into the phone

527
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: and hanging up, and a couple of them are threatening me.

528
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 2: And I said, well, you know, you knew what you

529
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 2: got when you lived with him. But he's tougher than anybody,

530
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: and no one's going to kill him. He's going to

531
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: wind up killing him. Don't worry about him. So another

532
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 2: week later she called and said, your dad called. You've

533
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: got exactly five hours to get the wheeling West Virginia.

534
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: I want you to go to a truck stop and

535
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 2: there's a pay phone. Call this number. He'll meet you.

536
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 2: It's an emergency. Leave now. So I did it. I

537
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: get up there and it's dark at this point. I

538
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: call the number. He immediately comes and meets me. We

539
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: follow two guys all the way back in this dirt

540
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: road way back into the woods. And he said, we

541
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: had our signal. If I see anybody, I blink the

542
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: lights on three times, one to warning two. His lookout

543
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: three is get the hell out of there, get the

544
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 2: whole thing. He and two other guys they get up

545
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 2: about a six foot blinked of something wrapped in blue

546
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 2: tarp and they bury it.

547
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 3: And I'm not stupid. I know this has got to

548
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 3: be a human. You know what I mean? What else

549
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: are you burying? Right? Why are you hiding? Why are

550
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 3: we doing this?

551
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: I know at this point the human blood's a lot

552
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: betder than dear blood and other blood. I know it's

553
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 2: human blood on him. He's got blood splattered on his khakis.

554
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: So they bury this guy. I drive out. These guys

555
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: go off their own way and I'm driving Dad back

556
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 2: five hours to DC area and we begin this epic

557
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: fight which you'll see in the book. And he starts explaining,

558
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: you're a do gooder, you don't go along with anything.

559
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I have to drive you straight

560
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 2: to the police station, turn you in, never doing anything

561
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: with you ever again.

562
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: We're done. No longer your kid.

563
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this and I should drive straight to

564
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: the police station right now. He grabs me by the

565
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: throat and pulls me up, and he said, I could

566
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: kill you with my bare hands. I own you, you stupid,

567
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: sob just shut up and get the hell out of here.

568
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: It was a big turning point for me, and people

569
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 2: would say, why did it come so late?

570
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 3: But it came when it came. Every day. I worried

571
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 3: for years.

572
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 2: But I'm not making any excuses for myself at all, right,

573
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 2: And so I assumed this guy was just another scumbag

574
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: like he was that crossed him. They were stealing tools.

575
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: They were fencing tools, and I'm imagining that something really

576
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: stupid happened and this guy threatened him and they decided

577
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: to kill him, and Dad needed.

578
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 3: A way out of there.

579
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 2: And to my knowledge, no one ever found out about it,

580
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: and I never heard anything about it, and he and

581
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: I never discussed it again.

582
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 3: But it haunted me, and really haunted me.

583
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: Did they ever figure out who this person was? What happened?

584
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: No?

585
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you really have gotten raked over the

586
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: coals from the things I've read about this. People are

587
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: criticizing you for this.

588
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're very critical of me. And I guess my

589
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: skin's no thinner or thicker than anybody else's. Publisher and

590
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: even family said, you know, you need to leave this out,

591
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 2: and I said, but you don't have an honest book.

592
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 2: This book's an honest book. This book is all my words,

593
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: all my faults. So they're they're one of these of

594
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 2: the books done well is because of that, because of

595
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 2: the honesty, the authenticity, And I carry these things with me.

596
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: I carry them now. Buring your soul at these coming

597
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: clean and sort of being vulnerable to people who love

598
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: you and who you know is very liberating, but it's

599
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: an extremely hard thing to go and I don't recommend it,

600
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: but I also knew that when people read it and

601
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: they saw the truth in it, that it could resonate

602
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: for some of them and they would see it as

603
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 2: an example of you can overcome things that you think

604
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: are impossible to overcome.

605
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: Tell me what happens from how old were you when

606
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: this incident happened with your dad?

607
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 3: Almost twenty one?

608
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: What happens over the next forty eight years for you?

609
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: Did your dad have any other big incidences with you?

610
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: After the burial of this body.

611
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: I get an incredibly amazing job in the political process,

612
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: and it's at a place where, through a reversal of fortune,

613
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: my dad is actually working at a much lower level

614
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: than me at the same place. And it's a complete bluke,

615
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: and it sent him into an outrageous envy that you

616
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 2: cannot imagine. Right, he just goes blistic at me and

617
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: people I work with, and he starts creating huge problems.

618
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: So he fakes an accident and is able to retire

619
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: on disability, but he decides to he is so angry

620
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: with me, he's going to have to in my life.

621
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: So what he does is he plans to murder my stepmother.

622
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: Now she's got money and land and a pension, and

623
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: he thinks he can get away at anything.

624
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: David, this is the nurse, is that right who he married?

625
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

626
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, initially at the reservation and then moved out to

627
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: North Carolina to live on her property. So they've been

628
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: married for.

629
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 3: Probably thirty years at that point.

630
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: He's left her a couple of times and come back,

631
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: but he sets up this murder and again, I understand

632
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: my dad at this point, probably better than he understands himself.

633
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: So he sets up this scenario where my younger sister

634
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: is going to help him. He owned and controlled her too.

635
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: They're going to take my stepmother to this swampy area

636
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: land she actually owns way back in the woods. He's

637
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: going to kill her, chop her up, put concrete, sink

638
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: her into this swamp. He's going to use my sister

639
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: as the alibi so that she drives him to and

640
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: from He hides in the trunk so it doesn't look

641
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: like he was there. My stepmother shows up to meet

642
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: him and she disappears. He gets a away with it.

643
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: So she calls me hysterically on a Wednesday night and says,

644
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: all of this is going to take place on Saturday.

645
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: Your sister right calls you. Is that right?

646
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 3: Right?

647
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: Where did this plot take place? Where was your stepmother's property?

648
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: The other bank to North Carolina is about two hundred

649
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 2: and fifty miles south and east of Washington. She owned

650
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: a tunnel land there and she was you know, came

651
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: from a family. They weren't rich, but they inherited land

652
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: back before. This was a beach haven, but they owned

653
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: this swampy property too, that where no one goes. So

654
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: he figures one he wants rid of her unto he

655
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: would like to have her money, which second he wants

656
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: to get.

657
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: Away with it obviously doesn't want to go to jail

658
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 3: with it.

659
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: And third, by using my sister, he owns and controls

660
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: her for life. So this is Dad's m But when

661
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: my sister called me, this is complicated for the listener,

662
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: but your true crime people, he knows that my sister's

663
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: going to call me, and he knows I'm going to

664
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 2: try to stop it. And what he decided to do

665
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: was set a trap where he can get me, kill me.

666
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 3: And I figured this.

667
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: All out ahead of time and get to him before

668
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: it ever gets down to the outer banks. I woke

669
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: up at three o'clock in the morning. Then I hold

670
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: my sister, go somewhere else, don't answer any phones, stay

671
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: with the friend, don't go back to where you live,

672
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: and avoid him completely, and give me time. Give me

673
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: twenty four hours to think this through. So I begin

674
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: thinking it through, and I use a lifetime of my experience,

675
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: and I understand why he's doing it, how he's doing it,

676
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: and if he could get rid of me and my

677
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: stepmother in the same day, that'd be the greatest day

678
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: he ever had, like winning the lottery twice. And I

679
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: know he really is that kind of guy. And I

680
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: know that he knows that I will probably go straight

681
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: down where my sister is. I'm going to be very

682
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 2: predictable for him, and he's going to know how to

683
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: catch me in his trap. And I realize that, and

684
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: so I know that I have to get to him

685
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 2: before he ever gets down there. And I don't want

686
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: to give this part away. A really interesting part of

687
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: the book, I think is what my thinking was, what

688
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: I did, and how I went about it.

689
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: So you foiled the plan, I'm assuming because you're sitting here.

690
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.

691
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: He is I'm assuming after this furious? Is that right?

692
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: That this has been spoiled?

693
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: It is?

694
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,959
Speaker 2: And because our family is so complicated and screwed up

695
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: and every other word you can use, we kind of

696
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: all pretend it never happened and go through our dysfunctional nonsense.

697
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: But at some point my dad decides he's never speaking

698
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: to me again, and so we went about fifteen plus

699
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: years without speaking.

700
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 1: Well wait, how old were you when that happened? How

701
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: old was he? And how old were you when that started?

702
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: You were an adult? Were you married?

703
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: Just before marriage? It's about twenty seven years old. Dad

704
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: needed me at some point because he was getting old

705
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: and sick. And I've made gone through a process of

706
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: deciding that I needed to forgive all this and just

707
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: move on with my life and just be a good son.

708
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: And well I've also been criticized for that. One in

709
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: the world were you thinking? But I understood unless I

710
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 2: cleared my mind of all this, I would never be free.

711
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: And that's another part of what I tell people. You

712
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 2: don't forget people because they deserve it or because they

713
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: ask for it. A good person will, a bad person won't,

714
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: and a really bad person will never think they did

715
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: anything won't. He's a psychopath, so I understood that. At

716
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: some point, I just wanted to be right with myself.

717
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: But I confronted him at one point and he said,

718
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: you're a liar. You make things up. Your revision is

719
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: everything about you is just weak and cowardly. I knew

720
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: you'd never be much of a man. You're nothing, and

721
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: I expected that. But even after that, years later, I

722
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: forgave all that decided I'm going to help him to

723
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: his last couple of years before he dies. Also talked

724
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: to my mother. I said, you know, you made me

725
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: feel like a ten years old that I left you

726
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: to die and I was man of the house and

727
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: I could have saved you. Her answer is you were

728
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: and you could have and you didn't.

729
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 4: Wow.

730
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: When you grew up with that, you think it's your fault.

731
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: It's a very hard thing and you have to undo that.

732
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: And again, the worst letters I get it from people

733
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: who never undid that damage.

734
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: This has probably come up and reviews. Did you consider

735
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: turning him into police? I think you've mentioned that one time.

736
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: What would that have done or why wouldn't you have

737
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: done that? As an adult who didn't live with him anymore?

738
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: It wouldn't have made any sense.

739
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: And I to me, you know, I have two sisters

740
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 2: and a brother to think about, and their lives have

741
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: been really messed up through all of this. My sisters

742
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 2: are still really struggling with issues they were caused by this.

743
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 2: I just didn't see it helping. And you know, more

744
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: than seven years has gone vi A. But you know,

745
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 2: there's no statue of limitation on murder. But I have

746
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 2: no idea what happened in West Virginia. I really I

747
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 2: just know what did happen. But I didn't see any

748
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 2: value in any of that, anything that was healing or

749
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: helpful or therapeutic or anything else.

750
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 3: My own kids to think about.

751
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 2: And you know, whenever you mentioned our last name, I mean,

752
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: it's just all they can do to I feel bad

753
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: for them, right, I mean, they've had this what I

754
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: call the Quo curse their whole life. I just realized

755
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 2: that none of this helps anybody, and it doesn't help

756
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: any victims, It doesn't do anything.

757
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: Burn him in while he was still alive. Would that

758
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: have prevented future violence from him? Do you think?

759
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 2: No? I just think it would have raised up other

760
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: ugly issues that in really bad families where this stuff

761
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: goes on, you always says, well, why don't people talk

762
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: about it? Why didn't you say something earlier where they say,

763
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: you know, you just wanted to go away. You just

764
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: feel like you're jumping into a filthy bathtub and trying

765
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: to get clean, and all you're doing is rearranging the dirt.

766
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: It can be very, very difficult. Is it worth it?

767
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: And if so, why so? Where's your justice? What do

768
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 2: you get? And don't believe me, you will pay one

769
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: hell of a price.

770
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: So writing this book, while I imagine for you, must

771
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: have been very cathartic, was it difficult for I need

772
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: to tell your mom, but for your wife or your siblings?

773
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: Was that difficult for them to read about?

774
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 2: Extremely My siblings tried to talk me out of it.

775
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: My wife tried to talk me out of it. My

776
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: siblings made me change their first names, which is the

777
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: only part that's not accurate. And since bus sisters have

778
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 2: married last names, you know, I figured they're saying, what's

779
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: really interesting, No one wanted me to do it. Now

780
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: that it's been extremely successful, and obviously they come off

781
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: as my heroes. They are, I mean, they live through

782
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: this with me. So the book now it's like, Oh,

783
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you did it. But believe me, no

784
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: no one wanted me to do this, no one.

785
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: This has taken an emotional toll on you. Obviously, what

786
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: good do you see coming of it? I know you're

787
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: getting a lot of feedback from people who have had

788
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: similar upbringings, which is just terrible, and they are telling

789
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: you how grateful they are that you have brought these

790
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: types of abuses to light. So is that the gratification

791
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: for you from all of this?

792
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 3: It is?

793
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: And you know when I get letters, and I get

794
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: a lot more of these than the negative. You made

795
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: me understood. I could tell my story. You made me understand.

796
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: It's not my fault. You made me understand I'm not

797
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: a horrible person because I go up in a horrible

798
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 2: circumstance when you grew up the way I did. Things

799
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: are coming at you one hundred miles an hour, life

800
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: and death every day. You're facing an extraordinary situation where

801
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 2: you have to read a person's face like my dad's

802
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: in an instant and know what to do, how to

803
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 2: avoid danger. And you have to understand that a person

804
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: who grows up like that is broken. They don't like themselves.

805
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: They don't like their story. They may even hate themselves.

806
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: They don't know it, and they don't trust anybody, and

807
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: they know that if they try to trust you, that

808
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: you'll simply go to the person that hurts them and

809
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: they'll hurt them more. What you have to understand is

810
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: breaking a cycle like this is extraordinarily difficult, and most

811
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 2: people do not.

812
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 1: So tell me about the last days of your dad's life.

813
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: When did this happen and how old was it? What happened?

814
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: So Dad died January second, twenty thirteen. In the last

815
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: two the four years I was this legal guardian, I

816
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: was his medical guardian. I talk to him every day.

817
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: One night he thought he was going to die. He

818
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: had a series of medical issues towards the end, and

819
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 2: he thought he was going to die all over me

820
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 2: to had these massive heart surgery, and he wrote, can

821
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: you ever forgive me?

822
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: On a pad?

823
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: And I said, I gave you, forgave you a long

824
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: time ago, Dad, You're my dad, and he smiled, But

825
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: as soon as he got well, he turned mean again.

826
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: I knew that any forgiveness or any kindness to me

827
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: was situational and the only reason he ever reached back

828
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: to me was the end of his life. He needed

829
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: me and I didn't need him, and I was still

830
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 2: okay with that. But I told him I was going

831
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: to write this book and he got really angry, and

832
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I'm the only one of your

833
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: four kids that calls you every day, looks after you

834
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: every day, talks you every day, keeps you good. If

835
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 2: you want to cut me off, thank you. I can

836
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: just get rid of all the bs right now. So

837
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: you need to give this a lot of thought. So

838
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: he called me back. He said, okay, but if I

839
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 2: raised my hand in your face and tell you can't

840
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 2: talk about something, you have to stop. And I said, well,

841
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: maybe yes, maybe no. Then I told him that I

842
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 2: tracked down his accomplice, that I tracked down the son

843
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: of his accomplice, and then I'd give him the daughter

844
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 2: of the son of his accomplice, a full internship in

845
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 2: my office that i'd gone through the Freedom of Information

846
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 2: Actor San Quentin. And I told him how you dad

847
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: destroyed their dad's life. And I thought his head was

848
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: going to pop off. And I said, you're not going

849
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: to get away with no one knowing this, and you're sure,

850
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to get away with pretending to

851
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: me that you didn't do this, And I will write

852
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: this all down and I will tell it exactly the

853
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: way it happened. And he said, well, I'm an atheist.

854
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: I don't care. And I said, I know you're an atheist.

855
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: And it's not to get even. It's not because I'm

856
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: keeping score. It's to tell people you can overcome even

857
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: you as a father and come out of it and

858
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: be okay.

859
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, words you digit bought

860
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: a chargee on the spy who couldn't spell.

861
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 4: He's certainly got some delusions of grandeur, and he thinks

862
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 4: of himself. You know, he's got a fantasy running in

863
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 4: his head in which he is like a double oh

864
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 4: seven character who is so smart and who's who's so

865
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 4: skilled at espionage.

866
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 3: He thinks he can hold win the government.

867
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: My new book All That Is Wicked is available now,

868
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked is based on

869
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold more Wicked. You might think

870
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: you know the whole story of Killer Edward Ruloff's crimes,

871
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: but there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is

872
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