1 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Nithy Tawari is a licensed clinical social worker who specializes 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: in E M D therapy em D R therapy excuse me, 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: and is now the author of the upcoming book Working Well, 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: How to build a happier, healthier Workplace through the Science 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: of Attunement. 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: Hi Nythy, Hi, how's it going. 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 3: It's good. I was telling you before the podcast. 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: I was making you walk through how to pronounce your 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: name with me, and I said, so, if I got 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: it a little off, I'm so sorry. It's a beautiful name. 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: I love it, but it made me feel like I 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a speech impediment. 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: You did great. 14 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: Thank you. 15 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: I appreciate you clarifying how to pronounce it. 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: We were talking about attunement before the podcast, and I 17 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: don't think any of us ever really set out to 18 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: become the fixer in our relationship, right, Like, we want 19 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: to love our people, we want to do right by 20 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: the people we're in relationship with, but that's never the 21 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: goal is to be like, oh, I'm going to be 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: the fixer. I'm going to take this role on, even 23 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: if it comes in the form of extra empathy, which 24 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: is something I can really struggle with. 25 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 3: So I want to. 26 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: Talk through your book, and your book creates a solution 27 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: of attunement as the solution to these problems, to these 28 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: fixer modes that we can all go into. 29 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 3: And I was thinking about it before the podcast. 30 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: I was like, I bet a lot of people don't 31 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: even know what attunement means. So let's start there. If 32 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: you had to describe attunement to someone who's never even 33 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: heard the word or the concept, how would you describe it. 34 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: Attunement is the concept of being in tune or in 35 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: sync with the people around you. So when you think 36 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: about the people that you really vibe with or feel 37 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: deeply connected to, it's because they're in tune and attuned 38 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: to you. It's this moment to moment responsiveness that we 39 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: have in our relationships where we're able to recognize our 40 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: own internal processes and what's coming up for us, while 41 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: sim will taneously holding the other person's experience right alongside that. 42 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: And it means that we're able to anticipate other people's 43 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: needs and meet their needs as well. 44 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: You suggest that attunement starts with noticing what's happening inside 45 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: of you, But a lot of people I don't know 46 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: that they even have grasped that concept in their life, 47 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: you know. I think that's something that we're starting to 48 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: talk about a little bit more. But if someone is 49 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: just thinking, how do I even I don't even know, 50 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: like I don't know what I'm thinking from time to time, 51 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: or how do we even start with the concept of 52 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: like internal awareness with attunement. 53 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: I think the first step is to notice your reactions. Right, So, 54 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 2: in all of our relationships, whether it's at work or 55 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: with our partner, or with our friends or family, we 56 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: have these reactions to situations, just gut instincts that happen 57 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: where we respond in a particular way. And if we 58 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: can recognize those moments where we're not showing up as 59 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: our best selves or moments where we're maybe getting hijacked 60 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: by old stuff, that's really our starting place is the 61 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: awareness of how am I showing up in the moment 62 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: and am I putting my best foot forward in these interactions? 63 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 2: If not, what's really happening underneath the surface that I 64 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: need to dig into and recognize and work on. 65 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: So that's the first step of attainment, I would guess, right, 66 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of bringing up to me the idea of 67 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: when someone says, like what is your trigger actually saying 68 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: to you? So is that a similar concept. 69 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it is very much in line. And I think 70 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: the evolution of that is recognizing that not only what 71 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: is your trigger trying to expose to you in terms 72 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: of your own responses and reactions, but what is the 73 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: past present connection in how you're showing up in this moment. 74 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: So a lot of times we move through the world 75 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: thinking that our reactions are based on the situation that's 76 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: happening in the here and now, But in reality, what's 77 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: occurring is that these present day experiences are very much 78 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: linked to our past. And so let's say that a 79 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: coworker says thing makes like a little snide comment in 80 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: a meeting and you feel called out. Well, chances are 81 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: there have been earlier experiences in your life in childhood 82 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: or adolescents or even early adulthood, where something similar happened 83 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: and it made you feel exposed, vulnerable, it made you 84 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: feel defensive, which is what's informing your reaction in the 85 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: here and now. So just noticing those past present connections 86 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: is a huge step in that self awareness and being 87 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: able to develop a bit more being in tune with 88 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: yourself and what's happening internally. 89 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: So it's very tied to your nervous system as well, 90 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: I would think, right, so, you know, give us some 91 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: examples of moments of just stress or conflict or even 92 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: trauma that would be impacting these kind of scenarios where 93 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: we would want to start using attunement as a tool. 94 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: The first one that comes to mind. You mentioned fixers 95 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: at the beginning of conversation, and I am a recovering 96 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: fixer myself. Yes, I'm a people pleaser, right, and I've 97 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: always wanted to make sure people don't feel disappointed that 98 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 2: they feel supported by me. So earlier in my life, 99 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: how I was able to receive connection from my caregivers, teachers, coaches, 100 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 2: it's friends was by sacrificing my own needs and service 101 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: of other people. So when people needed something from me, 102 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: I would always deprioritize myself to ensure that their needs 103 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: were taken care of first and foremost. What that meant 104 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: in my adult relationships is that the same pattern just 105 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: repeated itself. So there were times where friends would hit 106 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: me up last minute and say, hey, are you available 107 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: to support me at this happy hour? I would have 108 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 2: plans with my husband and I would ditch him to 109 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 2: go and meet up with them because I was terrified 110 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: of disappointing them. The scariest thing to me and to 111 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 2: so many people pleasers that might be listening, is for 112 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: somebody to be mad at you, for somebody to feel 113 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: like you're not the person that they thought you were, 114 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 2: and that guilty and shame is evoked in those interactions. 115 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: And so that's an example of how trauma, or really 116 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 2: the interpersonal relationships that we've had earlier in our lives 117 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: can very much influence how we show up in our 118 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 2: relationships now today. 119 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, as you're talking, I'm just thinking again, 120 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: this is just another example of the importance of doing 121 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: your own work, like really addressing the things that came 122 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: up for you in childhood and the behaviors that you 123 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: took from that, because so often what I'm seeing and 124 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: what I saw on myself before I did some work 125 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: on myself, was I'm almost operating like a child in 126 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: my reactions to relationships. But when you're an adult, that 127 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: doesn't work now, so it creates a lot of problems. 128 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: And we talked before the podcast, this goes across the 129 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: board of relationships, right, It's not just love or romantic relationships. 130 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: This can be friendships. This can also be work right relationships, 131 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: Like how you show up in one is probably how 132 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: you're showing up in another. So I'm assuming the importance 133 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: of doing your own own work with childhood trauma or 134 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: I know you do a lot of EMDR, which is 135 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: diving into like the subconscious stuff. That's a really important 136 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: part of this attunement process for us in relationships. 137 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: Yes, your self awareness is going to precede your interpersonal awareness. 138 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: Self leadership at work is going to proceed leading other people. 139 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: So you have to be aware of your own stuff 140 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: and how it bubbles up. And all of us have this. 141 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: I think it's something that we're starting to come to 142 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: terms with in our personal relationships, friendships, family partners, but 143 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: it's less talked about in the work realm, and people 144 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: think that, oh, well, shouldn't this just be something that 145 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: you deal with in therapy? Why is this relevant to 146 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: me in the workplace? And the reality is you are 147 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: get to get hijacked at work too, right, Like somebody 148 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: will say or do something that brings up all of 149 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: this old material and your reactions are not going to 150 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: be in line with you wanting to show up as 151 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: your best self how you would like to show up 152 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: in adult you know, mind and body. I especially resonate 153 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: with what you said about how this like almost childhood 154 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: version of ourselves kind of takes the lead and starts 155 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: to drive the bus. And a big piece of this 156 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: is being able to have the adult awareness to respect 157 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: and honor these younger parts of ourselves that are feeling 158 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: scared or feeling unhard or misunderstood, but not allowing those 159 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: younger versions of ourselves to be making the decisions for 160 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 2: our adult selves. And that's where the distinction needs to happen. 161 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: You can honor a younger part of yourself without allowing 162 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: it to take the lead and dictate how you're showing 163 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: up in your relationships. 164 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, I have three questions that came up from that, 165 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: and I just I'm gonna start with this and we'll 166 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: see if they all come out. But one of the 167 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: things that's been coming up for me in relationship is 168 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: when I get overwhelmed. It could because you mentioned work, 169 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: and I find this to be very connected to Like 170 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: in my work world, I have to be this like 171 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: you know, you have to be your performer self almost 172 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: like you have to show up. You can't just be 173 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: melting down all the time. I have a kind of 174 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: a caretaker position as a stylist, like working with people, 175 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: but I need to be on and I need to 176 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: be my best self for them. If I overwork, I 177 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: become almost like an irrational child, and it takes me 178 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: back into being like when I would sleep over, I 179 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: have a sleepover and I would come home and my 180 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: mom would be like, why are you melting down? 181 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: I think you're just tired. I'm like, I'm not tired. 182 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: You know that kind of thing. 183 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: That's what I'm doing as an almost forty four year 184 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: old sometimes. And so I feel like what's interesting in 185 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: that is I'm realizing, Okay, I need some attunement to 186 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: realize like my own needs in that. But what's happening 187 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: in my life is my boyfriend and I deal with 188 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: our overwhelms very differently. So what I want to know 189 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: from you, since we're talking about attunement and relationship, is 190 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: how do we start to be in touch with what's 191 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: happening within us but with the people that were in 192 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: relationship with how are we using attunement to recognize what 193 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: they actually need, want are asking for? 194 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 3: In moments of overwhelm. 195 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 2: Let me start with the mistake that we make. Okay, 196 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: the solution of that, yes, yes, So the mistake that 197 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: we make is that we assume that what we need 198 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: is what other people need, right, So, like, because I 199 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: need somebody to rub my back and give me a 200 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: hug and say, honey, it's going to be okay, that's 201 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: what my partner needs in that moment. Yes, and perhaps 202 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: sometimes that might be the case. We may guess right 203 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: a portion of the time, but often what they need 204 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 2: is actually different than what we're needing for ourselves. So 205 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: that's the mistake that we make. Now, what's the solution. 206 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: I think the first most important step here is to 207 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: get in tune with the other person. So you see 208 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: your partner feeling overwhelmed, feeling stressed. Perhaps you're somebody who 209 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: needs that emotional support, but maybe they shut down. Maybe 210 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 2: there's somebody who becomes avoidant and they withdraw from you 211 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 2: as their response, right, which is not atypical. I think 212 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: a lot of people experience that. Well, So then you 213 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 2: have to understand that you try to chase after them 214 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: from an anxiety ridden place of like, I need to 215 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: know what's going on with you. I want to step 216 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: in and fix it and make it better for you, 217 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 2: because I'm uncomfortable with the fact that you're withdrawing, you're avoiding, 218 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 2: and that evokes my own anxiety. That's not the solution. 219 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 2: What we need to be doing is taking a step 220 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: back and recognizing this is their process. They may need 221 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: thirty minutes, forty five minutes to just go play some 222 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 2: video games, go for a walk, work out for a minute, 223 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: be by themselves, and then they'll come back and we 224 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: can have a conversation at that point. But when we're 225 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: trying to force our own perspectives and our own desires 226 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: and needs onto other people, that's where we start to 227 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: experience these connection gaps, and it creates conflict because the 228 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: other person comes away feeling misunderstood and as though their 229 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: needs were neglected in this interaction with you. 230 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 231 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely, so how do we even identify what someone else 232 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: might need though? If it's not what we need? I mean, 233 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happens with me and my boyfriend. He's 234 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: very much a doer, So in those moments he wants to, 235 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, if I'm melting down, He's like, what can 236 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: I do? And I'm like just wanting him to sit 237 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: there with me a lot of times, or give me 238 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: a hug, or you know, like I am a very 239 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: I know what I need to do, but sometimes I 240 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: need to deal with the emotions first. And so we're 241 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: very different in that way, and we're having to learn 242 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: to work with each other in those moments. I guess 243 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is, how do we start 244 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: identifying what someone else might need. 245 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 3: More quickly or easier if it's completely different from what 246 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: we would need? 247 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: How do we start identifying what someone else might need 248 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: more quickly or easier if it's. 249 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 3: Completely different from what we would need. 250 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 2: You have to ask instead of assuming. Okay, the assumption 251 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: is what's going to get you in trouble, right But 252 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: and it sounds so simple, but we forget to do this. 253 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: We forget to ask people all the time. We just 254 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: we take action with the anticipation that it's going to land. 255 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: If you can just pause in that moment and say, hey, honey, 256 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: I'm noticing that you're really overwhelmed and I want to 257 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: support you. What would be most helpful right now? Do 258 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: you want me to just be here as a listening 259 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 2: ear so you con vent to me, do you want 260 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: us to go for a walk, do you need some 261 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 2: alone time? And then we can reconvene in thirty forty 262 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: five minutes and talk about it. Then when you feel ready, 263 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: let me know which of those options, or if there's 264 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: a fourth option that resonates, let me know what that is. 265 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: I want to show up in the way that you 266 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: need me to show up for you. So something as 267 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 2: simple as asking for clarification as opposed to assuming what 268 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: they need, is really important. Now the other piece of this, too, 269 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: is that in that moment where you're feeling like like 270 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: he's not communicating to me, I don't know, like is 271 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: he that at me? In this process, like we get triggered. Also, 272 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: especially for anxious people, an avoidant partner is going to 273 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: trigger up all that stuff. An avoidant person in general 274 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: is going to trigger up all that stuff. So then 275 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: we also need to reset. We have to go through 276 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: what I call the reset framework of like being able 277 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: to pause and notice in that moment, Okay, my own 278 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: stuff is coming up and I need to calm that 279 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: down before I'm going to be an effective support to 280 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: the person who's sitting across from me in that moment. 281 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: So reset is R for reaction, E is for emotion, 282 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: S is forsooth, E is for explore, and tea is 283 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: for tell. When you're reacting, you need to notice that 284 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: what's historical is becoming hysterical. That's like something my mentor 285 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: told me. If your reaction is hysterical, it's because it's 286 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: based in something historical. So just noticing ooh okay, I 287 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: just blew up, or now I'm withdrawing because I feel 288 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: like he's giving me the cold shoulder. Noticing that reaction 289 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: is huge. Then you have to identify the underlying emotion. 290 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: Is it that I'm feeling embarrassed? Am I feeling exposed? 291 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: Am I feeling sad, anxious, worried? What is really happening 292 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: from an emotional standpoint within myself? Then we have to soothe. 293 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: And the biggest mistake I see people make in this 294 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: process is we try to rationally think through what's really 295 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: going on, and we try to connect dots before our 296 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: nervous system is regulated. So for you have to soothe 297 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: yourself by breathing, grounding, taking a moment, doing a meditation, 298 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: you take a walk real quick, right, whatever it takes 299 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: for you to be able to get that nervous system 300 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: back in a regulated state. Only then can we explore 301 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: what was really going on. Huh, my partner withdrew from me. 302 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: I felt really anxious. That feels just like my dad 303 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: growing up, when he would get mad at me. He 304 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: would give me the silent treatment. That's what I felt 305 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 2: my partner was doing in that moment. So you could 306 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: see how then we're able to connect dots because that 307 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: rational thinking center is back online, right, that's not online 308 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: when we're over. And then the last part is to 309 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 2: tell somebody about it, Talk about it with the front, 310 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: write it in your journal, vocalize, make sense of what happened, 311 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: because that's how you're going to be able to synthesize 312 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: the information. In order to synthesize, we have to be 313 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,239 Speaker 2: able to soothe ourselves first. 314 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: Do you notice a difference between like engender roles here, 315 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: like between men and women specifically, like do women more 316 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: naturally attune emotionally and kind of sense into things whereas 317 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: men maybe want to come in and. 318 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: Fix I think that we are socialized, right. Women are 319 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: socialized to be the nurturers and the careers in society, 320 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: and so we are hyper aware of other people's emotions, 321 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: and then, of course that gets compounded if you grew 322 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: up in an environment where you had to predict other 323 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: people's moods or your parents' moods were up and down, 324 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: and so you were constantly having to gauge if it 325 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: was safe to ask them a question or safe to 326 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: express yourself versus I need to just roll with things 327 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: because mom's in a bad mood, right. So there's that 328 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: piece of it. I will say that in the modern 329 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: society that we live in, there are a lot of 330 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: men who are learning how to become really nicely attuned 331 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: not only to themselves but to their partners. They're learning 332 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 2: the skill set to be able to do this, And 333 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 2: I think that that's a big takeaway here is that 334 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 2: for some people this may not come naturally, but it's 335 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: not completely out of your grasp. It's something for you 336 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: to practice and to be able to reinforce for yourself 337 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 2: so that it develops into a skill set that you 338 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: can default to in these moments of conflict or disconnection 339 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: that you're experiencing in your relationships. 340 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: What is the implication of trying to fix someone in like, 341 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: what how are we disconnecting from each other when we're trying. 342 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: To fix instead of actually like. 343 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: Going into attunement, using the tool of attunement and kind 344 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: of figuring out specifically what the person might need or 345 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: what actually helped the scenario. Like when we go in 346 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: and we're like, Okay, I'm going to do this and 347 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: this and this. How is that actually disconnecting versus connecting 348 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: and relationship. 349 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: It's a great question. It's creating a disconnect because you're 350 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: completely bypassing the emotions underneath what the person is expressing 351 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 2: to you. So if I come to you and I 352 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: tell you I've had the most stressful day at work. 353 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: Now I got to go pick up the kids and 354 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: cook dinner, and I got to get the dishes done, 355 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: and I am just feeling stretched way too thin. And 356 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: if your response to me is, well, have you thought 357 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 2: about organizing your calendar or hm, maybe you need to 358 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: set better boundaries. Right, Oh, look, you spent an extra 359 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: thirty minutes at work and that's why you're feeling stressed. 360 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: You shouldn't do that going forward. You can immediately feel 361 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: how that creates a disconnect because we bypass the emotion, 362 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: which is I'm feeling stressed. I'm feeling overwhelmed. I feel 363 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 2: like I don't have support, and so then when we 364 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: jump in with a solution and to fix it, we're 365 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: reinforcing that lack of support, and on top of that, 366 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: we're burdening the other person with another thing to do. 367 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: Right exactly, Yeah, I was thinking that would make me 368 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: want to throw the calendar across the room to. 369 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: Screw this calendar. 370 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 3: I don't want to get. 371 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 2: The calendar to the calendar exactly exactly. So that's what happened. 372 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: So we're emotionally bypassing. And then the second thing that 373 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: happens too is it's very presumptuous. It's very presumptuous to 374 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 2: assume that you have somebody else's dilemma figured out better 375 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 2: than they have it figured out. If it was as 376 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: simple as set of boundary leave work thirty minutes early, right, 377 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: we would be doing that right, uh hello. But often 378 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: it's just simply there are too many tasks to take 379 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: care of in a twenty four hour day, and rearranging 380 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: things will only buy us back little bits of time 381 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: here and there. It might help, but often it doesn't, right, 382 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: And so it's very presumptuous for the other person to 383 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: be like, well, here's all the things that you need 384 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: to do to get this on track. Have you tried them? 385 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: No? 386 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: Well, this is why you need to do them, and 387 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: that doesn't either. 388 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 389 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about the fixer a little bit. I 390 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: want to talk about the over empathizer because this is 391 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: something that I really had to grow out of, realizing, like, 392 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: I'm a highly empathetic person naturally, and then realizing as 393 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: I was aging how much I was taking on other 394 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: people's problems so much that I couldn't even like show 395 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: up in my own life anymore. So can you talk 396 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: about that a little bit? And how cause I think 397 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, oh, I'm supporting my friend, I'm 398 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: supporting my partner, I'm here for my family, and also 399 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: not realizing the detriment that that was causing me and 400 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: maybe my relationships as well. 401 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 3: So can you speak to that just a little bit. 402 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: I think I thought, you know, oh, I'm supporting my friend, 403 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: I'm supporting my partner, I'm here for my family, and 404 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: also not realizing the detriment that that was causing me 405 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: and maybe my relationships as well. 406 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 3: So can you speak to that just a little bit? 407 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: M hmm. Empathy is a superpower, right. But overempathizing means 408 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 2: that the line between you and me blurs, and what 409 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: we have to recognize is where we end and where 410 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: other people begin. Right. So what you're describing is taking 411 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: on so much of your friend's emotions, your family's emotions 412 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: that it weighs you down it and it interferes in 413 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 2: your ability to take care of yourself. I would say 414 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: that overempathizing and people that are people pleasers, they're like 415 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: almost like the same circle, right, Yeah. I feel like 416 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 2: we're kind of trained to almost be that way, to 417 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: really read into what other people are needing, and to 418 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 2: neglect ourselves in the process. So what we need to 419 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: do in those moments is to recognize that there's a 420 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 2: gray area there. It's not so black and white between 421 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 2: either I take on all of my friends in families 422 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: problems and issues as my own, or I'm disengaged in 423 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: not a caring person and just saying, well you figure 424 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 2: it out. There is a space in between where we 425 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: can show empathy and compassion, be great listeners, hold space 426 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: for people, and not then burden ourselves with also taking 427 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 2: on everything that they're putting on to us. And that's 428 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 2: where those emotional boundaries are going to be very important 429 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: for people that overempathize. Right, So recognizing that, okay, if 430 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 2: a friend of yours is making a poor decision or 431 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 2: a colleague is about to make a mistake, that you 432 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: can't save people from themselves, that you can't be the 433 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: one to jump in and protect them and bubble wrap 434 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: them from the world, which is ultimately what we're trying 435 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: to do when we're like sitting there spinning our wheels 436 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: over their problems. We're trying to think of ways to 437 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 2: prevent harm from coming to them, which is rooted in 438 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: caring and compassion, but it's not healthy and in fact, 439 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 2: it almost infantalizes the other person. Because some of our 440 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: best learning, some of our greatest opportunities for growth, come 441 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: from our moments of faith fire. And so if we're 442 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 2: we're stepping in there, and if we're trying to bubble 443 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: wrap and protect people, that we're not giving them the 444 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: opportunity to make mistakes, to be able to learn and 445 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 2: grow from those mistakes so that they can then evolve 446 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 2: as a person. So that's kind of the way that 447 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: I've had to shift my mindset about it. Is it's 448 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: not that I'm there to help them to solve their 449 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 2: life's issues. I'm not there to take on everything that 450 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: they're putting out there. It's instead to be a really 451 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 2: good conduit for them of a place of empathy and compassion, 452 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 2: but also allowing them the agency and self determination to 453 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: choose for themselves what they need, and that me worrying 454 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: about it is not going to help solve that for them. 455 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 3: Right. 456 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: Do you have any quick I mean, I know there's 457 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: a lot of listeners of this podcast who are like 458 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: me with that. So do you have any quick tips 459 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: of a way to set boundaries when you're supporting someone 460 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: through something highly emotional or through a hard time or 461 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: something like that. 462 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: Sure. I think one that you can use right off 463 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: the bat is to identify what's called your locus of control. 464 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: So that means, like, what are the things that I'm 465 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 2: in control of in this situation, and what are the 466 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 2: things that are out of my control. Sometimes what happens 467 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 2: is when we're spinning our wheels and we have those 468 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: anxiety ridden thoughts about oh my gosh, oh no, they're 469 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 2: going to open this business and what if it fails, 470 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: and I just really want to save them. That's our 471 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 2: way of trying to control the situation, right, because we're 472 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 2: feeling helpless, like they're ultimately going to choose what they 473 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: want to do and what they don't want to do. 474 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: So recognizing that, okay, that's not actually helpful, right be 475 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: stressing and spending countless and sleepless nights worrying about their 476 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: problems is not actually helping them to resolve the problem. 477 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: So you have to ground yourself. You've got to be 478 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: able to regulate your nervous system in that moment, because 479 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: it's just regulated, it's a cue to you. Right. The 480 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 2: other piece of that, though, is that where you do 481 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: have control, you can exert it, right. So all right, 482 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: if they are asking you for feedback, if they're asking 483 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 2: you for your thoughts on a situation, perfect, that's an 484 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: area that you can contribute. If they need you to 485 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: be a sounding a person to brainstorm with them, wonderful, 486 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: that's an area that you have control. But sometimes just 487 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: distinguishing what's mine to own versus what's other people's to 488 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: own makes a huge, huge difference. 489 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: That sentence sounds so simple, but that, for real was 490 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: the struggle of my entire twenties was just what is mine? 491 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: What is theirs, and I still can catch myself in 492 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: it because it feels like mine, like it will physically, emotionally, 493 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: mentally feel like something I need to fix, like I 494 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: can feel the anxiety of it sometimes, and I've really 495 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: had to learn practices to release that. 496 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 3: Because I love what you said. 497 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: It's really almost not I don't want to say cruel, 498 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: but I had a mentor tell me one time, like 499 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: ripping someone out of a situation that you deem bad. 500 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 3: Is actually cruel if it's. 501 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: What they need to do on their journey to grow 502 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: to evolve, Like we can't do that for someone else. 503 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm not god, you know, like I'm not ever trying 504 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: to say that. 505 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: I am. 506 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: So it's interesting that we act that way sometimes where 507 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: we're you know, trying to do because I want to 508 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: get out of my uncomfortable feelings too, of their situation. 509 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and it evokes our own feelings of helplessness. 510 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: Right when we start to see our friends and loved 511 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 2: ones struggle, it absolutely brings up our own feelings of 512 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: helplessness and discomfort. I'm so glad that you mentioned that, 513 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: because that's absolutely what's happening. We're bypassing not only their 514 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 2: emotions but our own, by jumping into overempathizing fixing. 515 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: Right. 516 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 2: So yes, if we're able to just pause and be like, okay, 517 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: but wait a minute, what's really driving that? A simple 518 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 2: question that I ask myself is how is this familiar 519 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 2: to me? Like something that there's something that is not 520 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 2: about my friend right now? Why am I feeling so 521 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: helpless in this situation? Is so desperate to make it 522 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: better for them? Oh, it's because that's what was expected 523 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: of me growing up, and I feel like that's what 524 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: it means to be a good friend or a good lover, 525 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 2: or a good colleague or a good boss. 526 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 1: One's huge. I think that one's huge. Okay, let's talk 527 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: about the check in framework. Did we mention this before? 528 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: I know you did a breakdown? 529 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: No? 530 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: Okay, let's do the check in framework because I think 531 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: this is a really helpful tool. Maybe you could give 532 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: even the first step for listeners, because I know attunement 533 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: can be a new. 534 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: Idea to a lot of people. 535 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: Even though it sounds simple, it is one of those 536 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: things that takes practice, and we might be really slow 537 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: at it at first. So what are some check ins 538 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: we can do? 539 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: So the first step is going to be asking some 540 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 2: really good curiosity based questions to connect with people. So 541 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 2: this is where that ask versus assume comes into play. Okay, 542 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: when somebody shares with you something that's going on, we 543 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 2: often leave it surface level, right. They're like, Oh, I'm 544 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: feeling I've just got an argument with my partner or 545 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 2: my boss just came down on me really hard, and 546 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 2: I feel really bad about myself, and we just kind 547 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 2: of leave it at that and we jump into either 548 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: fixing or avoiding or connecting or one of these other 549 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 2: areas that we tend to default to. 550 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: Right. 551 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 2: So if instead we can say something along the lines of, well, 552 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: tell me more about that. So what happened, how did 553 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: you feel in that moment? Have you felt like that before? 554 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: What would be helpful for you in this moment as 555 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 2: you're sharing, what do you need from me? Those curiosity 556 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: based questions are absolutely integral for being able to have 557 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: deeper conversations. And when we just leave at surface level, 558 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: we're skimming the surface of the conversation versus diving a 559 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 2: little bit deeper and developing some trust and attunement between 560 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: ourselves and the other person. So that's a really good 561 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 2: starting place is get curious, ask some deeper questions. You 562 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: don't have to like poke and prod overly. So like 563 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: there's also a balance here too. Yeah, you know, if 564 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: somebody is like guarded and they're not giving you a 565 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: ton okay attuned to them, then that means back off 566 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, wait until they feel a 567 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: little bit more comfortable to explore a little bit more deeply. 568 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: But connecting through those curiosity based questions is huge. 569 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: I love get curious, and for me, that's a huge 570 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: one on a bigger scale in our world right now. 571 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: I feel like, right now we are all looking at 572 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: people's reactions and actions and going, God, well they're just 573 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: an asshole, or they're just this or there was Like 574 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: I want everyone to get curious, I feel in our 575 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: world and ask ourselves, like what is the driving force 576 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: behind certain behaviors? Because when you look at everyone through 577 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: that lens, including yourself obviously, it really kind of like 578 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: lowers the anger and the like negative energy or whatever 579 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: it is, because you can start to see there's something 580 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: else driving them, whatever it is, fear, power, hunger or whatever. 581 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a reason we all do everything we do, 582 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: right and we don't get curious about why someone's doing it. 583 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: We just look at the response or their action and 584 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: judge that. 585 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 3: Does that make sense? 586 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 2: It makes complete sense exactly, And a question that has 587 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 2: been so helpful for me with getting curious and not 588 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: jumping to judgment. This is actually a question that Oprah 589 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: and I think it was either Seagull or Peter Levine, 590 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: one of the auth co authors of a book that 591 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 2: she wrote. It's what's happening with you versus what's wrong 592 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: with you? We tend to default to what's wrong with you? Yeah, Oh, 593 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: that person was a total asshole towards me. What's wrong 594 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: with them? They could be off traffic? What's wrong with them? 595 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: Instead of what's happening with them? Did they cut you 596 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 2: off in traffic just to be a jerk? Or is 597 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: it that they have their pregnant wife is giving birth 598 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: and they're trying to to the hospital, or are they 599 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: late for something and they're just in their own head. 600 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: Which doesn't mean that it's not something that frustrates you. 601 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: It doesn't invalidate your experience. But if we can get 602 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 2: curious about what's really going on with people, it would 603 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: make a huge impact in our relationships day to day. 604 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely, okay, if we wanted to give listeners one practice, 605 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: if they were listening to this and thinking, Okay, I 606 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: want to start a tuning in my life. What is 607 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: one simple step? 608 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: The step that you can take is to really master 609 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: these skills of attunement by being flexible, by reading cues, 610 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 2: by self regulating, and by collaborating with the people you're 611 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: in relationship with. If we can do those four steps right, 612 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: and they're kind of one simple step that's broken down 613 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 2: into four small components. Being flexible meaning adapting based off 614 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 2: of what people need in this moment. What they needed 615 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 2: a moment to go may not be what they need 616 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 2: right here and now, being able to read cues, so 617 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 2: recognizing people's body language. Are they closed off? Are they 618 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: leaning away versus leaning in? What's the cadence of their delivery, 619 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: the tone of their voice? All of those nonverbal and 620 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: verbal cues are critical. Self regulation, Can you ground yourself? 621 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: Can you stay in your body in this present moment 622 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: as opposed to being hijacked by old stuff? And then 623 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: can we collaborate with one another? Can we recognize that 624 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 2: no matter what the relationship is, whether it's at work, 625 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 2: whether it's your romantic relationships, friendships, or family. That we 626 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: are all on the same team, we all have the 627 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 2: same goals, and how can we come to a collaborative 628 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 2: solution together. 629 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: I find this to be such an interesting topic because 630 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: I really do feel like every single person on this 631 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: planet can relate in some way or another. Like I 632 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: think some people naturally a tune, like I feel like 633 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: i'd naturally a tune. And I don't know if that's 634 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: like a hyper vigilant thing, if that's a childhood learned behavior, 635 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: if it's just my internal skill set. But it's like 636 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: what I was saying earlier, but I can overdo that, 637 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: where then there's other people who might not attune at 638 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: all and just do the quick judgment like we just said. 639 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 3: And so then the goal is to get curious. 640 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: So there really is like a lane for everyone with 641 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: this topic, it seems. 642 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And it's part of this is being able 643 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: to figure out where you fall on the spectrum. Yeah, 644 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: like you said, some people just naturally are going to 645 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 2: pick up the skill set and others it may be 646 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: a little bit more work. But what I can tell 647 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 2: you is that my research, the research of all the 648 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,719 Speaker 2: people that came before me. Have found that this is 649 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 2: such an important skill for all of our relationships. It 650 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: is worth investing the time and the energy to master it. 651 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. Well, the 652 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 3: book is called Working. 653 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: Well How to Build a Happier, Healthier Workplace through the 654 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: Science of Attuonment. So as we said, it obviously works 655 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: for all types of relationships. Where else can people keep 656 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: up with your work if they want to keep up? 657 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah. So I'm a professional speaker, so you can 658 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: find me on my website. It's my first name, last 659 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 2: name dot com, Niddytori dot com. I'm also on TikTok Instagram, 660 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 2: LinkedIn you can search my name. My handle is Nithiitwarre 661 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 2: LCSW Licensed Clinical Social Worker LCSW. 662 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: Lcsw okay, and I we'll put all of that in 663 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: the description of the podcast. I know the book comes 664 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: out in March, so we'll also put the link if 665 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: you guys want to go check that out and get 666 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: on the list to order it when it comes out 667 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: in March. 668 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 3: So, thank you so much for being here, Thank you 669 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 3: for having me