1 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. We've 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: got a new recurring series for you. It's called Drilling Deep, 3 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: in which we interview different book authors about their books, 4 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: the research behind those books, and what they mean for 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: dealing with the climate crisis today. In today's episode, Adam 6 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: Lowenstein interviews Hannah E. Morris from the University of Toronto 7 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: about her new book, Apocalyptic Authoritarianism, Climate Crisis, Media, and Power. 8 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: In it, Morris looks at the intersecting forces of nostalgia 9 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: for a supposed golden age of the past, fear of 10 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: sharing power with women and people of color, a parent 11 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: contempt for ordinary people, and the determination to resurrect the 12 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: myth of American exceptionalism, all alongside an apocalyptic conviction giddiness 13 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: even that civilization and the planet are inevitably doomed. These 14 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: bleak convictions unite many far politicians and their technolibertarian backers. 15 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: But has this powerful coalition found an unexpected ally in 16 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: the mainstream media. Morris argues that, whether they realize it 17 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: or not, some climate journalists, obsessed with preserving a self 18 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: determined moderate center, are deploying some of the same tropes 19 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: and reinforcing some of the same narratives as the extreme right. 20 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: Hello Abundance Bros. Earlier this month, Morris spoke with Adam 21 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 1: about who gets to choose which climate solutions are right 22 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: and which ones are wrong. What the media's divergent treatment 23 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: of the Green New Deal and the Inflation Reduction Act 24 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: reveals about its entrenched biases, and why a sense of 25 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: fatalism and inevitability seems to pervade so much mainstream climate coverage. 26 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: That conversation is coming up after this quick. 27 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: Break apocalyptic authoritarianism, and I will say upfront that I 28 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: think it's because of the number of vowels in both 29 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: of those words, but I have a hard time saying them, 30 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 2: so I might be correcting myself many times. 31 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 3: But sorry for the mouthful of a phrase. 32 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: No, it's a great title and it works on so 33 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: many levels. But I think a good place to start 34 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: the conversation would be two terms that you mentioned throughout 35 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: the book. One is obviously the title apocalyptic authoritarianism, and 36 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: the other is apocalyptic environmentalism. And I'm wondering if you 37 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: can give a definition or a description of those two 38 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: terms and how they differ as a starting point here. 39 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a great place to start. And yeah, again, 40 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: apocalyptic authoritarianism. I think on paper, its like this looks 41 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 3: like a really great phrase, but when yeah, when I 42 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 3: speak it too, I feel like I always and that 43 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 3: kind of loses the impact it But. 44 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 2: And you probably had to type it so many times, 45 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: and it's those are both words that I find really 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 2: hard to type, especially authoritarianism. 47 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: I always check. I'm just like, did I spell authoritarianism? Right? 48 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 3: Is there like another rm? There? Am I missing? 49 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's the number one problem with the rise 50 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: of authoritarianism around the world right now is how hard 51 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: it is to smell. 52 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 3: There you go. So, despite the spelling and the difficulties 53 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 3: with that, apocalyptic environmentalism is referring to largely environmental thinking 54 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: that I merged out of the Cold War era, and 55 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: so this was an arrow when there are a lot 56 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: of existential anxieties. There were real fears of nuclear warfare, 57 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: and also there was for the first time that Apollo 58 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: seventeen photos of Earth, which were often referred to as 59 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: a blue Marble photos which really showed the whole Earth 60 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: and kind of floating this vast expanse of darkness. So 61 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 3: coupled with this fear of total annihilation with nuclear warfare, 62 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: and then seeing this really vulnerable, almost looking tiny planet 63 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: floating in this vast expanse of darkness. It really ignited 64 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: a global environmental movement that imagined an apocalyptic scenario of 65 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 3: a total total destruction of Earth by humans. And so 66 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: apocalyptic environmentalism really plays on this or ignites these real 67 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: feelings of fear around total destruction. But key to that, though, 68 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: is that there when apocalyptic environmentalism emerges since the Cold War, 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 3: especially for example, in the peak oil movement. I don't 70 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 3: know if you've heard of that before, by the peak 71 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 3: oil movements really pops up when there's a lot of 72 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 3: feelings of national anxiety, so a feeling of sort of 73 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: instability on a national level. For example, there was a 74 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: really big spike in the peak oil movement in around 75 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 3: the Iraq war Riors, and basically this predicts the total 76 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 3: destruction of industrial civilization because of the predicted peak in 77 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 3: terms of the amount of oil that is possible to extract, 78 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: and then the quick destruction of industrial civilization because of 79 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: reaching this peak oil moment. And a part of this is, 80 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: of course, it's apocalyptic fear of total destruction. But key 81 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 3: to this, and what you can see from apocalyptic environmentalism 82 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: as it comes and goes, is that there's this assumption 83 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 3: that there is a saved group, and that's a part 84 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 3: of a lot of apocalyptic narratives from religious discourse and 85 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: just biblical stories of there is, you know, this big 86 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 3: apocalypse that happens, but then there's a group that is 87 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: ultimately saved. And so for the peak oil movement, it 88 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: was those who knew about peak oil and who started preparing. 89 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: You know, these are the origins of preppers and proper 90 00:05:54,839 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: societies and building post apocalyptic bunkers and learning how it's 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 3: to survive in harsh conditions. And so those who are 92 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 3: part of the peak oil movement imagine themselves as surviving 93 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 3: this total collapse of industrial civilization. And what I saw 94 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 3: and why I introduced this term of apocalyptic authoritarianism is 95 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: around twenty sixteen, so of course that's the first election 96 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 3: of Trump in the US. There became a lot of 97 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: very rightly so, lots of feelings of national anxieties at 98 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 3: the same time as there was a lot of feelings 99 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: of not feeling any stability in terms of the direction 100 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: of the nation, not really knowing what's going to unfold, 101 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 3: not knowing how to respond. There became really notable impacts 102 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 3: of climate change, and so there was sort of this pairing, 103 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: this combination of national anxieties with climate anxieties that reached 104 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: a crescendo around twenty nineteen where there was a real 105 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 3: spike in climate coverage for the first time. This is 106 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 3: the year that a lot of scholars and folks refer 107 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 3: to your climate change trended, and for example, in twenty nineteen, 108 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: media coverage, news media coverage was up seventy eight percent 109 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: as compared to twenty eighteen. So there was this, there 110 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: was a lot of anxiety and fear and kind of 111 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: recognition of the risks of climate change. Why introduce a 112 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 3: possibly authoritarianism is that with this feeling of just total instability, 113 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: total anxiety, there became this, like I mentioned before, with 114 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: a posabic environmentalism, it's imagining of a certain group as 115 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 3: being saved and that those who are more traditional figures 116 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: of power, those who claim to be able to right 117 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: the ship again and return on the stable path of 118 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: manifest destiny, you know, bring the nation out of this. 119 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 3: And this led to a lot of reactionary posturing that 120 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: united the traditional figures of power on the rights and 121 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: in the center, who were united around this common enemy 122 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 3: of the so called new New Left that was blamed 123 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: as further suspending the nation and the world into total 124 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: crisis and position these sort of traditional figures of power 125 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: that I call visionary stage figures really positioned them as 126 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: the ultimate authorities that must be followed. And so that's 127 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 3: not a very democratic way of responding to or reckoning 128 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: with the very real political and climate threats that were 129 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: occurring are still incurring right now, and. 130 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: We'll definitely get to the visionary stage figure and their 131 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: aversion to democracy and the political process in a bit. 132 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: You put words around something that I had not really 133 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: thought about in a concrete way, which is sort of 134 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 2: this sort of smug sense of I think you describe 135 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 2: it as enlightenment of people who have essentially accepted as 136 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: inevitable the collapse of society and civilization. It's almost people, 137 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: I guess people describe it as somewhat liberating of like 138 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: accepting that this is inevitable. Could you just talk about 139 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: that a little bit, because I feel like that kind 140 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: of worldview pervades a lot of these communities, demographics, the 141 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: elites of various kinds who are often asserting themselves as 142 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: the ones solving these problems. 143 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's what is very illuminating about these 144 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 3: movements that draw upon apocalyptic scenarios. Where, yeah, the peak 145 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: oil movement, those who consider themselves peaksts, So those are 146 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 3: the members of the peak oil movement. They There's some 147 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: studies that showed through interviews and surveys of those who 148 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 3: identify as part of the peak oil movements who are peakists, 149 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 3: that they before learning of this imminent supposed imminent collapse 150 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 3: of industrial civilization, these folks felt a sense of disempowerment, 151 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 3: They felt, you know, a lack of sense of direction, 152 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 3: They felt very disillusion But then upon this enlightenment that 153 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: they reported, you know, they became enlightened and they learned 154 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: of this what's going to happen in the future, and 155 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: they learned about this peak oil and this collapse of civilization, 156 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 3: and this provide them a sense of control, a sense 157 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 3: of power because of feeling like they are among a minority, 158 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 3: a small minority of people who knew what the future holds, 159 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: and that they can then navigate through that through their 160 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: sort of rugged individualism, this frontiersman kind of identity, and 161 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 3: so tapping into really longstanding American masculine identities of feeling 162 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 3: as though there's a special trait among American men who 163 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 3: can really grapple with harsh conditions and build a new society, 164 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 3: build a new civilization. And it's interesting to see that 165 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 3: there was this sense of control and empowerment that came 166 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 3: over the members of the peak Oil movement, which are 167 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: eighty nine percent white, middle class men. So it's a certain, 168 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: very particular demographic that are clearly trying to find a 169 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 3: sense of purpose, a sense of direction, a sense of 170 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 3: control in their lives among periods of social change. And yeah, 171 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: I feel the sort of empowerment this reported enlightenment when 172 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 3: they think of surprisingly the collapse of civilization. 173 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: There was a period I think for me it started 174 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: during the early lockdowns in twenty twenty and continuing for 175 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: a couple of years after that, where I read a 176 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: lot of end of the world novels, a lot of 177 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: pandemic stuff, like a lot of people did during that time. 178 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: And from there I got into climate fiction or cli 179 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: fi pretty intensely, and I think as i've kind of 180 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: kind of maxed out on that after a couple of 181 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 2: years of reading a lot of that stuff, and it's 182 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: not all really bleak like. Some of it is actually 183 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: ultimately very hopeful. But I was a little bit surprised, 184 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 2: even though I knew these were all fictional stories, I 185 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: was a little surprised how much it impacted my worldview 186 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 2: of what I thought would play out, what was inevitable. 187 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering if you have dabbled in or gotten 188 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: into these genres of you know, whether it's TV or 189 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: movies or novels, and what you make of it. 190 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit. Like you said, it's hard staying 191 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 3: in that space for long, I think because I feel, 192 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 3: like you know, it's kind of bleak to for me, 193 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 3: I don't feel a sensit of empowerment when I think 194 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: of the destruction of the world. 195 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: You're not a peakist. 196 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: I'm not a peakist, so it doesn't really reason. But 197 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 3: I think what's interesting to see about some cli fi 198 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 3: and just sort of the genre of post apocalyptic societies too. 199 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 3: For example, I don't know if you've seen the series 200 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: Fallout that came out recently. 201 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: No, but up until recently, I would have said I 202 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: need to put that on my list sounds like like 203 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: my kind of thing. But now I'm like maybe not no, but. 204 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: This one's really good. I have to say this one, 205 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 3: OK good, I didn't say it up well. But it's 206 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 3: you know, based on the game Fallout, which draws upon 207 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties esthetic. So this was again the a 208 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: lot of sort of nuclear anxieties and apocalypse areas emerge 209 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: from this Cold War era Fallout. The new TV series 210 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 3: that came out pokes fun at some of this, and 211 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: it's really smart where it's it's poking fun at this 212 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 3: this key genre, this key element of post apocalyptic books 213 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 3: and films, and again it imagines a kind of saved 214 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 3: group of people that come out of the apocalypse, and 215 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 3: a lot of it is imagining harkening back to this 216 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: nineteen fifties or you know, even further back with the 217 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 3: frontiersman idea of sort of reclaiming some control and traditional 218 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 3: traditional figures, traditional male figures leading the way, saving those 219 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: who survived, leading to this new civilization or it's usually 220 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 3: you know, kind of a male figure frontiersman or cowboy figure. 221 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 3: And so follow Out does a really interesting job of 222 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 3: not only poking fun at that in a really smart way, 223 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: but also by tapping into this nineteen fifties aesthetic and 224 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: it's kind of Americana aesthetic. It also you know, pokespon 225 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: kind of nostalgia that you see that it's kind of 226 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 3: ironic where there's this this romanticizing of the end of everything, 227 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 3: but it's really just the end of you know, there 228 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: being contemporary society where women people of color are part 229 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 3: of politics. You know, there's different people who are part 230 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: of politics or bustly democratic societies. You know, there's like 231 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 3: that's what's making some traditional figures uncomfortable and feeling like 232 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 3: a loss of a place in society. And so you know, 233 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: this's hearkening back to nineteen fifties and this traditional you know, 234 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: nuclear family, and that's a lot of elements of that 235 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 3: that pop up in some of these dist being genres. 236 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: And so I recommend Fallout because it is one of those. 237 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: It shows that there's a lot of space for genre bending, 238 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: and you know, there's not like every apocalyptic or cli 239 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: fi film is bad necessarily, there's some really interesting, really 240 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: interesting work coming out of that space. 241 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: On that nostalgia point, one of the arguments you make 242 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: in the book, is that a lot of the mainstream media, 243 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: including a lot of climate journalists, are quite obsessed with, 244 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: or at least nostalgic for the past, the sort of 245 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 2: golden age, as you describe it, where journalists were revered 246 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: and powerful and the arbiters of what is true and 247 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: what is not. Can you talk about a little bit 248 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: how you would describe the state of climate journalism today. 249 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: At one point you talk about it as being defined 250 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: in some ways by like a collective sense of doom, 251 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: and how that contrasts with this supposedly golden age in 252 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: the past that men, many of them, seem to yearn for. 253 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I have to say that it's not a 254 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: good time to be a journalist, as you probably didn't know. 255 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: It herself, I can confirm. 256 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. And so it's been longstanding pressures put on journalism, 257 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 3: economic pressures, with movements away from social media and I'm 258 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 3: moving towards social media rather and towards digital media, and 259 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 3: sort of a struggle to adapt to these new business models, 260 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: and also to just a drop in public trust because 261 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 3: of Trump, for example, calling the US press the enemy 262 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: of the people, and there's been a lot of direct 263 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: attacks on journalists and so it's completely understandable for trying 264 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 3: to find a way out of this, and among more 265 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: traditional journalists, so journalists writing for really big publications, legacy 266 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: presses like The New York Times, whose publisher A. G. Slzberger, 267 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 3: for example, cansistently has been writing public facing pieces really 268 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 3: buckling down on needing to protect these sort of traditional 269 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: modes of doing reporting. So instead of thinking about how 270 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 3: to move away from hypercapitalists like business models, for example, 271 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 3: and figuring out how to have collective, collectively owned newspapers, 272 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 3: more support for independent newspapers, local journalism, there's among these 273 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 3: really big, important national presses that's sort of buckling down 274 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 3: on now we need to continue with how we've been 275 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: doing this. And same goes for reporting practices, and aj 276 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 3: Stolzberger for example, consistently says, you know, the nation needs us, 277 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: they need journalists, and this romanticization then of journalists being 278 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 3: a sort of stabilizing force that can bring back stipidity. 279 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 2: And yeah, democracy dies in darkness, Washington. 280 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 3: Post exactly exactly so, and again journalism is extremely important 281 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 3: and is under attack, and so but there could be 282 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 3: and I argue in the book, this moment of really 283 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: trying to grapple with how to do journalism differently and 284 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 3: you know, include more people come out of communities. Really, 285 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: you know, instead of having this this mission or this 286 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: identity of civilizing you know others and others need to 287 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: listen to journalists really, you know, changing that, making it 288 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 3: a bit more equitable in terms of the power dynamics. 289 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: And what I found really surprising and a bit unexpected 290 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 3: when I was looking at climate reporting and I looked 291 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 3: at journalism between Trump's first election twenty sixteen up until 292 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 3: now his unfortunately second election in twenty twenty four, and 293 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 3: again this was when journalism climate journalism in the US 294 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: really took off for the first time. And I saw 295 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 3: these in these news stories and also in editors and 296 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 3: writers and publishers commenting and talking about their perception of 297 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 3: journalism today. There was, you know, this romanticization, this nostalgia 298 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 3: for a post World War two period, a period when 299 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 3: the US often in stories that we tell ourselves, the 300 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: Americans that we tell ourselves, this is when the US 301 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: was considered to be a global a global stabilizer, and 302 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 3: a global leader. And a part of that was journalists 303 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 3: also seeing themselves as not just a national stabilizer in 304 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 3: a way of bringing people together in the national level, 305 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 3: but also a global level too, And so US journalists reporting, 306 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 3: you know, back to the US and also around the 307 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: world about what was happening politically and providing this force 308 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 3: of reason, democratizing force across the world. And you know, 309 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 3: journalists were really US journalists were really respected during this 310 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 3: period in a larger way, in a more fundamental way 311 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: than maybe they are now. And so it kind of 312 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 3: makes sense why there's this nostalgia for this period. But 313 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 3: what's what I argue is concerning about this is that 314 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: this was a period though, when there was not a 315 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 3: lot of diversity in news rooms. There's not a lot 316 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 3: of robustly democratic processes for decision making. You know, women, 317 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: people of color were not included. This was before really 318 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 3: big civil rights movements and radical politics pro I mean 319 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 3: pro democracy, revolutionary politics of the late nineteen sixties nineteen seventies. 320 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 3: So this romanticization of this period in time is quite 321 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: striking and quite illuminating to me. I argue that it 322 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 3: really closes off imagining more robustly democratic ways of responding 323 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 3: to both struggles with journalism, national stability struggles, or trying 324 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 3: to figure out what to do in this Trump era 325 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 3: and how to respond and also climate change, you know, 326 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 3: how to respond to climate change in a really robustly 327 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 3: democratic way. 328 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: One of the themes of the book is very much 329 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: who gets to decide what are the quote unquote right 330 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: solutions to climate change? What are the wrong ones? What 331 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 2: solutions should be considered, what should be dismissed out of hand? 332 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: And one of the places that plays out from a 333 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: media and journalistic perspective that you talk about in the 334 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: book is the how the media covered the Green New Deal, 335 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: or compared to how it covered the Inflation Reduction Act. 336 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: Can you talk about that a little bit as as 337 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 2: I guess, a bit of a case study that illuminates 338 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: some of these arguments of and in particular this idea 339 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: of who gets to decide not just what solutions we 340 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: try to implement, but which ones we even consider at all, 341 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: in which you're dismissed out of hand? 342 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 3: Definitely. Yeah, this was a really illuminating case for me. 343 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 3: And when I am really revealing, I think of these 344 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 3: wider patterns. And so the Green New Deal was proposed 345 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: and developed by the really important progressive contingent during Trump's 346 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 3: first presidency, and so the Sunrise Movement, it was a 347 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 3: really important climate justice, youth led climate justice movement that 348 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 3: was founded in twenty seventeen in the world of an 349 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: alarming Trump election, but really built upon decades of community 350 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 3: organizing around climate justice and visions for how to have 351 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 3: a national level response to climate change in a way 352 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 3: that centered justice and democratic decision making and bottom up 353 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 3: decision making is supposed top down decision making, so including 354 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 3: a lot of different people in the policy making process, 355 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 3: and this shaped a lot of how the Green New 356 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 3: Deal was imagined. And Alexandria Kasia Cortez Progressive congresswoman of color, 357 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 3: and this is important too because the climate justice movement 358 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: is really led by young women of color in the 359 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 3: Sunrise Movement as well. So Alexandria Kazi Cortez was elected 360 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen in the midterm elections running on the 361 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: Green New Deal as a core policy commitment, and her 362 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: election was quite an upset, actually, it was quite unprecedented. 363 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 3: She ousted a longstanding Democratic Party figure, and she really 364 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 3: showed how there was desire for a different way of 365 00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 3: imagining American politics. And in twenty eighteen, before or the 366 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 3: Green New Deal, was really picked up by the national press. 367 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 3: There were national surveys and the key tenants of the 368 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 3: Green New Deal so again including lots of people in 369 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 3: deciding how to respond to climate change and what an 370 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 3: energy transition would look like, including oil and gas laborers, 371 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 3: working class oil and gas laborers who would be directly 372 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: included and centered and not left out, but working class 373 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 3: folks included in imagining how to respond, how to transition 374 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: to renewable energy, and also centering historically marginalized groups a 375 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 3: young women, indigenous people, black and brown people. So this 376 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: was actually eighty one percent of Americans reported that they 377 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 3: supported this, They supported these key tenants of the Green 378 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: New Deal. That's a striking statistic. And then when alexandri 379 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 3: A Kazak Cortez was elected, there became this fear mongering 380 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 3: that occurred of this of feeling uncomfortable almost of a 381 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: new direct for the US that destabilized traditional figures of 382 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 3: power in the parpet Democratic Party too, and so a 383 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 3: lot of news reports started positioning Alexandria Kazar Cortez as 384 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 3: directly antagonistic, for example, to Nancy Pelosi and you know, 385 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 3: threatening to again suspend the nation to further chaos, comparing 386 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 3: Alexander Kazakotez to Trump by saying, these are both extremist figures. 387 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 3: You know, we need to get back to a moderate center. 388 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: We need a restabilize the nation. We need to look 389 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 3: at these traditional figures of power like Nancy Pelosi, and 390 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 3: you know, we can't let these insurgents. They are called 391 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 3: a lot a lot of reporting from you know, the 392 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 3: New York Times, through the Wall Street Journal, these you know, 393 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 3: these insurgents need to be stopped. And the Green New 394 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 3: Deal was really picked up and lumped into this, this 395 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 3: fear mongering about a so called far left takeover of 396 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 3: a Democratic Party led by a young women of color, 397 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 3: and the spear mongering around that, and national polls showed 398 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 3: how in just a few short months of this this 399 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: fear mongering in a lot a lot of national news 400 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 3: coverage and also political discourse coming from Democratic Party members, 401 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 3: there was an extreme drop in support for the Green 402 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: New Deal. So this eighty one percent dropped substantially, and 403 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 3: so that just shows a lot of the unfortunate success 404 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 3: of this kind of delegitimizing of really important, robusted democratic 405 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 3: ways of responding. And then on the flip side the 406 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 3: Inflation Reduction Act, which was introduced by Biden when he 407 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: was elected a couple of years later, and this was 408 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 3: positioned as being this is what we need to do. 409 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 3: This is in contrast to the Green New Deal. The 410 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: Inflation Reduction Act is developed by these older, more moderate, 411 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 3: more reasonable men like Biden. You know, the Inflation Reduction 412 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 3: Act is how to respond to the present moment and 413 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 3: the chaos and crisis in a reasonable way. And this 414 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 3: is the correct way of responding to climate change. The 415 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: Green New Deal is not. And so these different, really 416 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 3: striking ways of position to policy positions was very revealing 417 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: and again showed that there was this real uniting around 418 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 3: a othering or fear mongering about progressive activists and progressive politicians. 419 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 2: One of the things I found most striking in the 420 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 2: book was the ways that you show how those these 421 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 2: legacy media institutions, institutions who are obsessed with the as 422 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: you put at the moderate center, are or have used 423 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: so many of the same tactics and the same messages 424 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 2: and narratives as the far right. Ultimately, there's an unwillingness 425 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: to challenge established power structures. They use racialized other tactics, 426 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: They project and seem to hold some of the same 427 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: fears of disorder. I think you describe it at one 428 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: point as elite panic disorder being kind of a long 429 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: time scare tactic to preserve power structures in the way 430 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 2: things are. Can you talk about those parallels a little bit, 431 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 2: because I think a lot of people I don't think, 432 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 2: I'm quite certain, given how they've covered Trump for the 433 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: last decade that a lot of these legacy media institutions 434 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: are think of themselves as antagonistic to Trump and MAGA 435 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: in the far right, and they think of themselves in 436 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: a very superior way because they are not that. But 437 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: what you show is that they're actually using a lot 438 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 2: of the same tactics and relying on a lot of 439 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 2: the same narratives. 440 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is what I think is really important, 441 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 3: and especially with trying to navigate how to get out 442 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 3: of this new Trump two dot oh as it's being 443 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 3: referred to. Yeah, you know, again with this striking statistic 444 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 3: of how the Green New Deal is supported by eighty 445 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 3: one percent of people at the time, and you know, 446 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 3: there's this desire for radical change, there's this desire for 447 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 3: comprehensive change among most Americans, It's not actually dangerous or 448 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: un popular to be imagining politics differently. This is what 449 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 3: people want, and by not addressing this, it fuels really 450 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 3: authoritarian inspiring figures like Trump. And you know, if there 451 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 3: was a leaning into instead of fear mongering about these 452 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 3: really progressive new visions for change, then perhaps there could 453 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 3: have been a stronger coalition to oppose Trump ahead of 454 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four instead of breaking these coalitions and pushing 455 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 3: people away. But yeah, a lot of what I you know, 456 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 3: I'm surprised, was surprised about and found concerning was in 457 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 3: national news coverage and commentaries as well that were, you know, 458 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 3: trying to provide interpretation for unfolding events that are happening. 459 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: Between your Trump's first election up until the second election. 460 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: There was this real fear of mass politics across the board, 461 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 3: and there was a lack of distinguishing between different political positions, 462 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 3: and so the moderate center, you know, those who can 463 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 3: serve themselves be moderate and are the center, you know, 464 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 3: really making these false equivalencies, like I mentioned before, positioning 465 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: Alexander A. Kazakretes is the same as Trump, for example. 466 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 3: What is dangerous about this is that there was this 467 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: othering that happened that isolated primarily young women of color, 468 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 3: as the dangerous other that needed to be removed from 469 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 3: the nation, needed to remove from politics that was happening 470 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 3: from the moderate center and the right. And so this 471 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 3: led to a really dangerous, dangerous echoing on the right 472 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 3: and the center of positioning the so called new New Left, 473 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 3: which the New York Times referred to, you know, the 474 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 3: young woman of color led progressive politics that Alexander kozakrets 475 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 3: represented and you know, contingents for climate justice and Green 476 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: New Deal represented. There was this positioning of the new 477 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,479 Speaker 3: New Left as really anti American socialists happening in redcar 478 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: Red scare, fear mongering again from the moderate center to 479 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 3: the far rights. But together what has led to is 480 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 3: ultimately the calls for removal from politics of a historically 481 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 3: marginalized and formally disenfranchised group of young women, and the 482 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: further positioning and centering, you know, centering of traditionally figure 483 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 3: traditionally privileged figures of power, you know, these white, older 484 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 3: men and women. And so this is something that, yeah, 485 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 3: it's pretty dangerous that there was this this isolation, this 486 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: this this this call for eliminating a whole group of people, 487 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 3: and these progressive people really could have provided important coalition 488 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: building and pathways for responding to Trump's politics, pathways for 489 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 3: responding and including more people in decision making, and it 490 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 3: would have been popular. And it's just really alarming to 491 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 3: see that there was this this coalition almost that form 492 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 3: between the moderate center and the far right to really 493 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 3: try to get the new new left out of. 494 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: Politics power structures successfully preserved. 495 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 3: Yep. 496 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: There's an interesting echo that you point out in the 497 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 2: book between the more recent or false equivalencies between someone 498 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: like AOC and someone like Trump and the decades of 499 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: both sides, the fossil fuel propaganda essentially, and the way 500 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: that mainstream media outlets said, on one hand, scientists say 501 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: climate change is real, on the other hand, the fossil 502 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: fuel industry says that climate change is natural, it's a hoax, whatever. 503 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 2: There is still that same false equivalency happening, and that 504 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 2: same kind of false objectivity, which, like you said, really 505 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: limits the scope of the debate and the scope of 506 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: what solutions might even be considered and what's popular and 507 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: what's not. 508 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's I think was it really interesting to 509 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 3: see when it was general fear of mass politics, and yeah, 510 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 3: this these fossil equivalencies that were formed between those who 511 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 3: were perceived as, like you said, rupturing traditional structures of 512 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 3: power and with the both sizes and the sense of 513 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: balance that happened before and not as much now, but 514 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 3: where yeah, there was this including of a fossil fuel 515 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 3: funded climate skeptic featured in news stories along with climate 516 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 3: scientists provided sense of balance through you know, professional standards 517 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 3: of journalism. But you know, now we realize that in 518 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 3: a lot of journalists and a lot of editors like 519 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 3: ag Solzberger, which all go back to again, you know, 520 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 3: and a lot because he's writing a lot about how 521 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 3: how to think about what's happening now and how journalists 522 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 3: and publications can respond in the Trump era, and you know, 523 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 3: he admitted he was like this, that was a problem. 524 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 3: The sense of balance in that case was pushing away 525 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 3: from the kind of reporting that need to happen and 526 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 3: this was not a way of reporting. But then there's 527 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 3: still this almost call towards being balanced or trying to 528 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: find a moderate center as a balance as opposed to 529 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 3: really actually covering and including different perspectives. And that's interesting, 530 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 3: I think a bit different too than the sort of 531 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 3: balance that was trying to be to be met with 532 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 3: including the fossil fuel folks with the climate scientists. But 533 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 3: now it's sort of this journalist trying to feel like 534 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 3: they're providing this moderate the center, this middle ground. And 535 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 3: if there's the inclusion of too many progressives in a story, 536 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 3: too many voices from the progressive left, then that scene 537 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 3: as being you know, maybe too biased. Or but if 538 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 3: there's shifting political conditions, and if more people are supporting 539 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: the progressive left or supporting something like the Green New Deal, 540 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 3: and that something is really popular, then you need to 541 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 3: include more voices of eighty one percent of people's it. 542 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 3: Then it wouldn't be biased to include that eighty one 543 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 3: percent in coverage. And by actually not including it it 544 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 3: led to really inaccurate reporting. It made it seem like 545 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 3: it wasn't popular, It made it seem like people didn't 546 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 3: want real change. And so that is something that I 547 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 3: think really needs to be reckoned with and letting go 548 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 3: of this imagined you know, maybe again this Cold War 549 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 3: period figure of you know, this one this moderate kind 550 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 3: of stable US where there's just no socialism at all, 551 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 3: there's no mention of progressive politics. You know, that's anti American. 552 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 3: There needs to be letting go of that, and it's 553 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 3: just striking that it sticks around so much. 554 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a theme I guess throughout the book of 555 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 2: elites again, from the quote unquote moderate center, all the 556 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: way to the far right to the Silicon Valley techno 557 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 2: libertarian types. I guess a commonality among these different groups 558 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: of really having contempt for ordinary people. You know that 559 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 2: eighty one percent of people who backed a lot of 560 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 2: the tenets of the Green New Deal. I would add 561 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 2: in a lot of cases democratic you know, capital d 562 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: democratic elites to that who do not, I would argue, 563 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: think very highly of the average ordinary person. Can you 564 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: talk about that idea that I think, as you put 565 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 2: at one point in the book, you know, the people 566 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 2: are the problem, this worldview that so many of these 567 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 2: elite decision makers seem to hold again from the center 568 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 2: all the way to the right. 569 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's definitely this real sense of unease at the 570 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 3: prospect of their being again mass politics, so essentially democracy. 571 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 3: You know, there's this real unease, and you know it's 572 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 3: tapping into longstanding myths like you know, Hobbsy in law 573 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 3: of the jungle chaos. If people are left for their 574 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 3: own devices, it would lead to utter chaos. So tapping 575 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 3: back into these acalyptic visions of there'd be this utter chaos, 576 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 3: this collapse. There needs to be these elite figures, these 577 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 3: visionary stages to guide the chaotic, brutal masses out of 578 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 3: the barbaric present into a bright future. You know, this 579 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: myth just circulates across really different groups of folks who 580 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 3: are in positions of power and material power and have 581 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 3: a lot of wealth and you know, also symbolic power 582 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 3: and are in these newsrooms reporting or you know, elected 583 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 3: officials who have the platform and have this really material 584 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 3: and symbolic power. Yeah, there's this consistent tapping into this, 585 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 3: this real disdain and this real feeling of needing to 586 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 3: control people. And also it's taken to an extreme when 587 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 3: it's people are sort of positioning you know, the masses 588 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 3: the people or position and as also unnecessary and this 589 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 3: is what you see or you know, unnecessary, in need 590 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 3: and almost welcomed. This chaos that is predicted with climate 591 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 3: apocalypse for example, and the mass death that's imagined, it 592 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 3: is almost welcomed by some figures, as you can see, 593 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 3: for example, with figures like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, 594 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 3: the technol libertarian extreme, where they almost morbidly celebrate the 595 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 3: prospect of their being this apocalypse, this mass death and 596 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 3: destruction of the masses, because then it affords them the 597 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 3: opportunity to have total control power. There's they have no 598 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 3: need for there's no accountability, there's no need for that 599 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 3: pesky thing called democracy because everyone's gone. It's just them, 600 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 3: and they're able to now build their fifetoms, their colonies 601 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 3: on Mars there, you know, they can do what they want. 602 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 3: And so it moves to a real dangerous extreme when 603 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 3: it's taken up in that sense where you know, if 604 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 3: there's a constant distain or assumption that the masses are 605 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 3: just mindless, dumb, dangerous people, then it can lead to 606 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 3: imagining and romanticizing about mass death, and that is something 607 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 3: that is really scary. You know, it's a really terrifying 608 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 3: way of thinking about people. 609 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, you point out in the book how that mentality, 610 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 2: while not maybe taken to the same Peter teel Elon 611 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,399 Speaker 2: Musk extreme in some of the media coverage, does show 612 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 2: up in this sense of the as you put it, 613 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 2: the doomed others and the saved selves, this idea that 614 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: an epic climate migration, to quote one New York Times headline, 615 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 2: is inevitable, and essentially the battle is lost, and who 616 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 2: will be saved, who will be lost? Who are the 617 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 2: doomed others? Who are the saved selves? And it seems 618 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 2: like a lot of the discussion is not how do 619 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 2: we prevent this from happening, because that's inevitable, but instead, 620 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 2: how do we assuage our own guilt for having let 621 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 2: it happen? Can you talk about that fatalism that pervades 622 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 2: so much coverage of the climate crisis in the lines 623 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 2: again in a way that I think a lot of 624 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: the people behind it would think of it as very 625 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,959 Speaker 2: different from the Peter Thiel's and Elon Musk's of the world, 626 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 2: But in fact it actually shares some of the same 627 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 2: world views and advances some of those same ideologies. 628 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, there is I noticed this what I call them 629 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 3: a book, a sort of doctor Frankenstein dynamic, where in 630 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 3: news coverage it is acknowledged that the US, for example, 631 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 3: has contributed substantially to climate change, has caused you know, 632 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 3: some serious problems in world affairs. You know, there's news 633 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 3: reports in terms of quotes that are featured framings, and 634 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 3: also opinion commentaries too that do admit this, you know, 635 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 3: the US kind of create a monster. They created a monster, 636 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 3: like doctor Frankenstein created a monster. But then though jumping 637 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 3: off of that and saying, but now the US is 638 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 3: the only one that can solve it. So doctor Frankenstein's 639 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 3: is the only one that can capture and contain the monster. 640 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 3: And this then further asserts the need for these elite 641 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 3: visionary stage figures to be the ones and also claims 642 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 3: that they're the only ones capable of solving quote unquote 643 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 3: solving climate change, like as an equation one plus one 644 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 3: equals two, you know, solving climate change we just solved 645 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 3: by an enlightened few, again and also positioning the US 646 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 3: as the main player that is needed to design a 647 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 3: way out that needs to be followed by everyone. And 648 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 3: so again this assumes, like you mentioned, that there's the 649 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 3: save the inevitable saved, and the US largely imagines itself 650 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 3: and within the US, figures like Elon Musk and Peter 651 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 3: Thiel and really elite figures within the US imagine themselves 652 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 3: as of course inevitably the ones that are going to 653 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 3: be saved, not to mention plan to escape to Mars 654 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 3: or apocalypse bunkers, you know, so really imagining themselves as 655 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 3: being the ones who, of course will be saved, and 656 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 3: then positioning them as the ones that then are in 657 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 3: control and in power of who to bring up into 658 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 3: the so called life world with them, who to save, 659 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 3: because they imagine sort of everyone else as being at 660 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 3: risk of dying or inevitably will be doomed and damned, 661 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 3: and they're in the positions to choose who to bring 662 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 3: up and who to save. And a lot of times 663 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 3: in the reporting that I saw, there was this assumption 664 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 3: that those who will inevitably be doomed and dead are 665 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 3: poor people, poor people of color, primarily poor people of 666 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 3: color living in the Global South. And so there were 667 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 3: a lot of images, for example, that we're showing just 668 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 3: this again, mass destruction death after climate induce storms in 669 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 3: the global South, creating this really apocalyptic death world image, 670 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 3: entrenching this idea that the global South is already lost, 671 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 3: They're gone, and so it's the US and the global 672 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 3: North are the ones empowered to be able to choose 673 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 3: who to bring up and save or who not to 674 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 3: that's not a way of representing reality that's going to 675 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 3: lead to bringing lots of people together from a lot 676 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 3: of different places to figure out how to respond to 677 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 3: climate change in a really democratic way. I mean, if 678 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 3: it's already assumed that a whole groups of people are 679 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 3: going to be dead and gone, then that's not leading 680 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 3: to their inclusion in international negotiations in a really meaningful way. 681 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 3: For example, it's not leading to thinking about how to 682 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 3: integrate and include lots of people into different societies. And 683 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 3: you know, it's making it seem like it's just those 684 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,879 Speaker 3: who need saving, and it's sort of they are being 685 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 3: given a favor by being brought up into you know, 686 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,359 Speaker 3: global North country. And yeah, it leads to a lot 687 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 3: of anti immigrant sentiments. The New York Times, like you 688 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 3: mentioned this sort of fear mongering about mass migrations or 689 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 3: you know, bringing folks from these chaotic, apostoble scenarios up 690 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 3: into the presumed saved, stable, global North life world, and 691 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 3: it leads to a lot of really scary anti immigrant 692 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 3: sentiments when thinking about climate change, can. 693 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 2: You talk about I guess what some of the consequences 694 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 2: are for more hopeful and democratic and participatory movements like 695 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,320 Speaker 2: the climate justice movement, when these are the only stories 696 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 2: that are allowed to be told. 697 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what is really important about crimate justice 698 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 3: narratives and movements are that they disrupt this idea that 699 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 3: there are just a small number of elite figures that 700 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 3: know all and can save all. You know, the clmmate 701 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 3: justice movement really disrupts that and says, hey, no, lived experiences, 702 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 3: lots of different knowledges are important to figure out what's 703 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 3: happening with actually, what are actually the impacts of climate change, 704 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 3: and also what can be done about it, And so 705 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 3: it disrupts these elite narrative. It also shows that people 706 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 3: can come together, and so it disrupts this narrative of 707 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 3: the masses being chaotic and dangerous and dumb. You know. 708 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 3: It shows that mass movements actually can provide really important 709 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 3: ways of responding. You know, people want to work together, 710 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 3: they want community. These climate justice spaces and movements are 711 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 3: really countering and poking holes in these myths that apocalyptic 712 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 3: authoritarians are trying to tell in order to claim their 713 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:30,760 Speaker 3: authority and their power. 714 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,399 Speaker 2: Yeh, As we start to wrap up here, I wanted 715 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 2: to ask you about some of the antidotes that you 716 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 2: outline in the end of the book, antidotes to apocalyptic 717 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 2: authoritarianism and this sense of fatalism in the elite panic 718 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 2: about the inevitable collapse of the civilized world. You talk 719 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 2: about radical hope and robustly democratic decision making processes. Can 720 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 2: you explain what those are and why they are such 721 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:57,840 Speaker 2: powerful antidotes. 722 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think radical hope is again countering the assumption 723 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 3: that there is going to inevitably be an apocalypse. And 724 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 3: that's important because as we've been talking about, these apocalypse 725 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 3: narratives can be can be taken up to claim that 726 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 3: there's again can be inevitable those who are saved and 727 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 3: those who are not, and those who are saved can 728 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 3: choose who to bring with them, and so it closes 729 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 3: off these more democratic imaginings for how to respond to 730 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 3: present day issues. And so radical hope then is just 731 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 3: disrupting that really bleak future, that quite morbid future, and 732 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 3: also that future that is fundamentally really anti democratic and 733 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 3: fundamentally quite authoritarian, and so robustly democratic decision making processes 734 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 3: again would not be these top down, elite driven claims 735 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 3: of absolute authority, and that they are the ones who 736 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 3: can choose who to save and instead it really disrupts that. 737 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 3: And you know, robustly democratic ways of imagining how to 738 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,279 Speaker 3: respond would include the being comfortable with the fact that 739 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 3: there isn't just one silver bullet solution to climate change, 740 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 3: isn't just one plus one equals too. There's many different 741 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 3: ways of responding the US, you know, in this doctor 742 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 3: Frankenstein myth or this you know positioning of a global 743 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 3: savior and superpower, and you know, it really disrupts that 744 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 3: as well, and it shows that, you know, there shouldn't 745 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 3: just be one superpower that decides how to respond and 746 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 3: how every other country should respond. There really should be 747 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 3: a lot of different ways, a lot of different ways 748 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 3: of imagining what can be done. And this centering of 749 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 3: radical hope and robustly democratic decision making points towards these 750 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 3: alternate pathways and being comfortable with not knowing, to being 751 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 3: comfortable with not having control, and being open to different 752 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 3: ways of living, different ways of building societies. 753 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 2: How would you see that manifesting in a reimagined climate journalism. 754 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 3: Yes, so, first of all, there needs to be a 755 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 3: rupturing of the spear of the masses that I think 756 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,399 Speaker 3: is really a part of a lot of the sort 757 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 3: of fundamental groundwork of reporting and journalists also, you know, 758 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,359 Speaker 3: a lot of ways, your traditional journalists in a lot 759 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 3: of ways again imagining themselves as sort of civilizing or 760 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 3: providing stability, providing this information that needs to be read 761 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 3: and consumed by the masses in order to have a 762 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 3: stable civilized society. I think that needs to be the 763 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 3: identity needs to be changed and instead thinking about members 764 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 3: of different groups, you know, readers as more than just readers, 765 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 3: but as participants as part of the newsmaking process. You know, 766 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 3: that is a first step I think for thinking about 767 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 3: reimagining journalism differently, this movement away from imagining people as 768 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 3: just masses or faceless or consumers or readers, but multi dimensional, 769 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 3: dynamic subjects who are different and smart and capable and 770 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 3: want change and are willing to put the work in 771 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 3: to do that. And I think too a part of 772 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 3: that then is disrupting these binaries too, the simplification, these 773 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:21,280 Speaker 3: simple narratives that position anyone who is advocating for change 774 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 3: as extremists. So there's the extremists versus the moderates that 775 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 3: I think needs to be let go of and being 776 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 3: comfortable again with not having control, not knowing necessarily the 777 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 3: direction that the future holds, and being okay with the 778 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 3: possibility for their being actually robust democracy, And that is 779 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 3: a really kind of the only way to respond to 780 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 3: climate change too, in a really fundamental way, is having 781 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:53,839 Speaker 3: a robustly democratic political economic system and not having these 782 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 3: glets of power that have led to climate change to 783 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 3: begin with. 784 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 2: One of the things I was thinking about while I 785 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 2: was reading the book was if the old way of 786 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 2: doing climate journalism worked, then it would have been working 787 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 2: by now. It's clearly not, so we might as well 788 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:08,879 Speaker 2: try something else. 789 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we wouldn't hurt to try something else, 790 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 3: all right? 791 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 2: What are you reading or watching or listening to to 792 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,360 Speaker 2: to find this more more radically hopeful vision of the future, 793 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:26,879 Speaker 2: or alternatively, just to perhaps escape the kind of bleak 794 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 2: reality from time to time? 795 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,959 Speaker 3: Yeah? I know, I mentioned the series Fallout, but also 796 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 3: just in general. You know, I find it really amazing that, 797 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 3: you know, I am a big fan of media like 798 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 3: I am. Really That's why I felt really motivated to 799 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 3: write this book, because media and journalism is just so 800 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 3: important and so and can bring people together and can 801 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 3: show different possibilities for different futures. It can really bring, 802 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 3: you know, perspectives on people's lives that wouldn't have been 803 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 3: maybe easily seen otherwise. And I find hope from you know, 804 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 3: the journalism you're doing, the journalem Amy Westerville, you know, 805 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 3: is doing and drilled media, and I find inspiration from that, 806 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,040 Speaker 3: and that there are these different models that already are 807 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 3: being done for journalism and different types of media production 808 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 3: that are already happening and already doing the really complicated 809 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,640 Speaker 3: work of not assuming, not assuming how the world works, 810 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 3: and being open to social change and seeing and reporting 811 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,320 Speaker 3: on and seeing what that looks like. So I think that, 812 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 3: you know, looking at the independent journalism that is happening 813 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 3: gives me a lot of hope. And my book really 814 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,399 Speaker 3: focused a lot on these sort of traditional journalism, these 815 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,919 Speaker 3: big publications like the New York Times and Wall Street Journal, 816 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,440 Speaker 3: and my frustration with the fact that these are extremely 817 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,000 Speaker 3: powerful institutions that can change and that should change, and 818 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:58,280 Speaker 3: they just aren't. And so you know, maybe there's space 819 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 3: then for just moving away from reading those publications as often, 820 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 3: you know, opening up and democratizing different different media, and 821 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 3: maybe that's not such a scary thing. 822 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 2: Handah, thanks so much for this conversation. I really enjoyed it, 823 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,120 Speaker 2: and I think the book is so important and I 824 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 2: hope people will We'll check it out. 825 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,359 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, and yeah, 826 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,399 Speaker 3: I really enjoy the conversation too. 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