Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with
Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton,
Speaker 1: business editor of Variety. Today. My guests in l A
Speaker 1: are Ben Silverman and Howard Owens, co heads of the
Speaker 1: content company Propagate. Benn and Howard have been partners on
Speaker 1: and off for years, since their days in the nineteen
Speaker 1: nineties working at the William Morris Agency. Today they have
Speaker 1: big ambitions to build Propagate into a major player in
Speaker 1: the global content arena. They spent most of two thousand
Speaker 1: and eighteen putting building blocks in place thanks to the
Speaker 1: investment Propagate received from Rain Group. Here, Ben and Howard
Speaker 1: discussed the economic landscape for content, wrestling over writes with fires,
Speaker 1: and why their company is also in the talent management business.
Speaker 1: And they also reflect on their past lives as network
Speaker 1: executives and just how much those jobs have changed. Ben
Speaker 1: Silverman and Howard Owns of Propagate Content. Thank you very
Speaker 1: much for stopping by and joining us today. Absolutely in
Speaker 1: the end, nice to be in the in the Variety
Speaker 1: studios where it all happens in Los Angeles. Um, you
Speaker 1: guys had a big two thousand eighteen, a lot of
Speaker 1: things went down. You started the year with an investment
Speaker 1: from Rain Group, and then you turned around and bought Electus,
Speaker 1: Ben's previous company that he started in two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: And by the end of the year you had recruited
Speaker 1: Greg Lipstone, who had been running All three Media America
Speaker 1: and is a veteran of the unscripted and talent agency world.
Speaker 1: And Electus has also brought you a big position in
Speaker 1: the talent management company Artists First. So how does all
Speaker 1: this activity set you up for two thousand nineteen? What
Speaker 1: are your big priorities for the year. Well, a lot
Speaker 1: of retreats, you know, as we build culture and integrate
Speaker 1: all the really incredible exacts across the companies. We love
Speaker 1: Peter Principato and the Artist First business. They are so
Speaker 1: impressive and have built an incredible organization and have amazing
Speaker 1: produced sial ability as well as a deep, deep roster
Speaker 1: of brilliant storytellers and artists. And we love the name too,
Speaker 1: Artists First because we're very much artists driven in our
Speaker 1: philosophy and um, two thousand nineteen is the year we gotta,
Speaker 1: you know, really elevate it and make it all work.
Speaker 1: We're not done in our acquisitions and ambitions for growth
Speaker 1: in terms of the inorganic, but we also want to
Speaker 1: now put the pedal of the metal and really turn
Speaker 1: on the dynamics that had been kind of frozen between
Speaker 1: artists first and um its ability to expand beyond because
Speaker 1: they had been in the sales process with Electus and
Speaker 1: so Howard and I are focused on continuing to up
Speaker 1: the premium content that we are making at scale for
Speaker 1: everyone from the History Channel to Netflix to Amazon, UM
Speaker 1: to Apple to UM NBC, and we also are looking
Speaker 1: to grow our premium scripted business. We're currently in production
Speaker 1: on three big scripted series, Charmed, Jane the Virgin going
Speaker 1: into its final year, and Blood and Treasure coming on CBS,
Speaker 1: as well as a myriad of really great high end
Speaker 1: development and we're looking to just grow all those businesses.
Speaker 1: Were maybe build out our unscripted franchises and really um
Speaker 1: you know, get back to the business of creating UM
Speaker 1: you know, culture changing content. And you saw in January
Speaker 1: with the launch a Mass Singer and and Tighten Games.
Speaker 1: You know, those still the way and not only that,
Speaker 1: those are still the shows that can move the needle
Speaker 1: the fastest for big outlets and big Netford high concept
Speaker 1: unscripted you still see. I mean, I know that was
Speaker 1: one of the things that you guys both major you know,
Speaker 1: major names on and there's been a lot of talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, has that moment passed? Can anything breakthrough? And
Speaker 1: clearly it can and it's all about originality. We have
Speaker 1: an amazing h show at Fox that we're not allowed
Speaker 1: to announce yet, but go ahead, they won't mind, you
Speaker 1: know that we're in production on great Talent Auspices and
Speaker 1: uh and it's one that Howard and I have believed
Speaker 1: in for literally fifteen years, you know, kind of since
Speaker 1: we started in this industry and built kind of the
Speaker 1: reality business, you know, on the heels of the work
Speaker 1: we did William Morris and Revel with the little show
Speaker 1: called Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? Can you believe
Speaker 1: it's been twenty years, you know, it's unbelievable and it's
Speaker 1: still on the air, still on the air. But in
Speaker 1: the wave of all of that, you know, there was
Speaker 1: a moment and you you actually chronicled it, you know,
Speaker 1: where if it had an accent, you know, we were
Speaker 1: involved in its its translation to America and then the world,
Speaker 1: and I think the areas that we have real kind
Speaker 1: of continued first mover and separation from our competition is
Speaker 1: we're super internationally oriented. We invested in a big international
Speaker 1: company as well, called it Incomdo out of France. We
Speaker 1: have a partnership in Brazil with Formata, and we are
Speaker 1: growing our international UM platform. Were in production on Spanish
Speaker 1: language series, on French series. We had the November thirteenth
Speaker 1: documentary series on Netflix this summer with the Not Day
Speaker 1: Brothers Indian series and based on a format that's about
Speaker 1: to be made in India going in production. I just
Speaker 1: heard this morning I sighting in Brazil as well the
Speaker 1: second season in Portuguese. So what you know is for
Speaker 1: like Netflix or for streaming there for all different kinds
Speaker 1: of outlets. So the Indian one is for Amazon, the
Speaker 1: French one was for net Likes, the Spanish language one
Speaker 1: is for Netflix, and the Brazilian one was for Brazilian
Speaker 1: broadcast television actually, And so we're scaling our international and
Speaker 1: coupled with that, we're going to be accelerating the growth
Speaker 1: for artists first internationally and that model of UM talent
Speaker 1: lead UH production orientation we believe in completely and UM
Speaker 1: and so that's another element as well as all the
Speaker 1: i P that we're able to drive out of the
Speaker 1: global markets, you know, just like Jane the Virgin and
Speaker 1: Ugly Betty before that. We're from Colombia and Venezuela. We
Speaker 1: have a string of great new i P in development,
Speaker 1: including Strong Girl UM with CBS and CW based on
Speaker 1: the hip hot Korean format, and we continue to kind
Speaker 1: of identify I think the best of the international market
Speaker 1: for translation, but also as we did in selling our
Speaker 1: shows internationally, are doing it in reverse. But the key
Speaker 1: answer to your you know question is in acquiring Electus Notional,
Speaker 1: the big breakfast franchise which makes Adam Ruins everything and
Speaker 1: artists first, as well as a minority stake in Authentic,
Speaker 1: the management company in New York, which hasn't been reported on.
Speaker 1: We want to integrate these into a you know, creative led,
Speaker 1: talent led global studio model for the future. How we
Speaker 1: can control rights and battle to UM you know, retain
Speaker 1: as much as possible in a world of accelerated vertical
Speaker 1: integration remains the biggest challenge UM, and we're looking at
Speaker 1: ways to do that and to accelerate those opportunities you know,
Speaker 1: we have used advertisers a great deal in the kind
Speaker 1: of previous decade to to align with around that, and
Speaker 1: we're still wide open to and interested in figuring out
Speaker 1: how they come back to the table in terms of
Speaker 1: bringing them in as financing partners from the get go.
Speaker 1: The shore co producers are finance and they are clamoring
Speaker 1: because for re entry into a system that's kind of
Speaker 1: been closing them out on in Netflix, Apple and Amazon's
Speaker 1: ecosystems where they're not invited or welcome at the table,
Speaker 1: and so we think there's opportunity there as well. And
Speaker 1: with Greg lipstones arrival, you know, having another senior level
Speaker 1: executive to support Howard and I and help really you know,
Speaker 1: run the run the day to day operations while we're
Speaker 1: building it out. And also the brilliant executives we've brought
Speaker 1: in from Electus Drew Buckley who's done a great job
Speaker 1: at Electus and is now part of the organization also
Speaker 1: and seeing Matthew and then the incredible capacity of the
Speaker 1: executives inside um artists first, you know, we don't just
Speaker 1: think of them as managers. We think of them as
Speaker 1: executive talent. And and Dobbins and David Gardner and Joel's
Speaker 1: Zaidak and Peter Principato across the board, you know, have
Speaker 1: such deep relationships, access and insight into the industry, and
Speaker 1: that's something we're excited to unlock more than they're kind
Speaker 1: of quotitian, you know, business of the generation before in
Speaker 1: the management side, the percentage business represented talent exactly. Um.
Speaker 1: Let me I ask all the producers that I talked
Speaker 1: to these days this question. Clearly, the the you know,
Speaker 1: the business models and the industry are are changing seismically. YouTube.
Speaker 1: We're both so far ahead of how the business was changing,
Speaker 1: you know, going on twenty years ago. But now it
Speaker 1: really feels like it is becoming a business of upfront
Speaker 1: money as opposed to back in success. How does that
Speaker 1: change the way you guys go about doing your business.
Speaker 1: Is television becoming a cost plus business for producers making
Speaker 1: money independent producers such a yourselves? Yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously because of the trend. We want to take advantage
Speaker 1: of that trend. You know, we want to sell series
Speaker 1: and get multiple seasons and get as much um, you know,
Speaker 1: upfront and um as much revenue and money as possible
Speaker 1: in the series that we're committed to in selling, but
Speaker 1: I think our artists first, our entry, our relationships with
Speaker 1: artists first, and our management talent relationships as well as
Speaker 1: our international production platforms as well as our ability to
Speaker 1: work with brands and advertisers are all different ways that
Speaker 1: we're looking to, as we like to say, form a
Speaker 1: quicker and more efficient path to production, but also opportunities
Speaker 1: to create different in emerging business models, you know, on
Speaker 1: one level and on a big macro level. For us,
Speaker 1: we've always believed in international you know, as our conversation
Speaker 1: is already UM alluded to UM, but we believe there's
Speaker 1: an opportunity to be making programs globally around the world,
Speaker 1: and as part of that, there are rights positions and
Speaker 1: not you know in countries that we're dealing with has
Speaker 1: been referenced, you know, Brazil, where we're in business with
Speaker 1: a broadcaster. UM. There are still businesses that rely on
Speaker 1: co production models, and still businesses that rely on partnerships
Speaker 1: where there are ownership opportunities and where they're legally regulated
Speaker 1: to force ownership onto the independent sector, something that we
Speaker 1: think should happen in America, you know, as I wouldn't
Speaker 1: hold your breath in this political environment, you never know.
Speaker 1: Usually you never know. I'm with you, just because of
Speaker 1: the hatred he has for all of the big malforms
Speaker 1: and the fact that he doesn't feel his voice gets
Speaker 1: hurt as the president. You know that. I think it's
Speaker 1: actually shocking that under a republican regime you could potentially
Speaker 1: see that emerge. But regardless, there is a moment in time.
Speaker 1: I think with the conversation ongoing about the consolidation now
Speaker 1: affecting what consumers see and the clear directive of all
Speaker 1: these media platforms to kind of come out with one
Speaker 1: version of a conversation, it is going to be a
Speaker 1: moment where we need to go backwards and create independent
Speaker 1: sector and independent voice again. And we we believe in
Speaker 1: that from the success of how content can develop and
Speaker 1: arrive and connect with an audience that it can't just
Speaker 1: all be two edited babies fed from the same machinery
Speaker 1: companies that are going to control. And it's so dramatically different.
Speaker 1: In the UK were literally by law there is there's
Speaker 1: very strict rules like the United States had thirty We
Speaker 1: were as agents in helping develop path strategy back twenty
Speaker 1: plus years ago to get a quota of percent fed
Speaker 1: through the independent sector where they were owning the rights.
Speaker 1: Part of it is based on the fact that the
Speaker 1: BBC was funded by the government and the net result
Speaker 1: of it was though that those companies became so successful
Speaker 1: and export market developed because they cared about every penny
Speaker 1: more than a large conglomerate wood holding onto multiple rights
Speaker 1: that it may not exploit. And then those companies drove
Speaker 1: value on the alternative investment market, which is you know,
Speaker 1: kind of the nas deck of London, and billions of
Speaker 1: dollars of wealthware created, jobs were built and there's a
Speaker 1: real narrative to that that has worked in other markets.
Speaker 1: So we continue to invest in those markets as well,
Speaker 1: because there are places where the rights disposition is better
Speaker 1: suited for producers. But I think, to answer your question directly,
Speaker 1: it's requiring us to think a little differently. It's requiring
Speaker 1: us Howard said that creativity around business models. Yes, but
Speaker 1: we need to get more volume on one hand, because
Speaker 1: it's the only way that it can equal what we're
Speaker 1: losing on the back end. And we still need to
Speaker 1: play the game for the big hits, and we need
Speaker 1: to take risk upfront, spend more money on development, build
Speaker 1: bigger packages, in house so that we can leverage the
Speaker 1: marketplace to retain rights where we can. Do you find
Speaker 1: I mean the sense, my sense is that it's it's
Speaker 1: becoming a very monolithic business. And you go into Netflix,
Speaker 1: and you go into CBS, you going to NBC Universal
Speaker 1: and they say, great, we'd like that. We'll pay you.
Speaker 1: We'll pay you this, and we'll pay you can take
Speaker 1: your or on top and we'll take everything. But is
Speaker 1: there more negotiating room if you if you walk in
Speaker 1: the door with I P well, it really want I
Speaker 1: was gonna actually uh then I played phone tag on
Speaker 1: the way over here. So I'm on the way over here.
Speaker 1: I'm on the phone with the UK partner who's in
Speaker 1: production on a series for us in the UK making
Speaker 1: here right, and so it's a great format. It's on
Speaker 1: broadcast network here and he got a multi episode order
Speaker 1: and it's a big priority for us to show. So
Speaker 1: we're obviously taking out our big new projects now at
Speaker 1: the top of the year. We've been working and developing
Speaker 1: and packaging and doing all that and so on the
Speaker 1: big project that one of the big ones that we have. Um,
Speaker 1: we have a UK in a French partner who want
Speaker 1: are desperate to take it out and I you know,
Speaker 1: we need to figure out it's probably these are ones
Speaker 1: broadcast and ones not. We need to figure out whether
Speaker 1: we want to. Traditionally, five years ago, we would of
Speaker 1: course had them go at the same time, because if
Speaker 1: they sold it in France or if they sold them
Speaker 1: in the UK, that would be better for us across
Speaker 1: the board. Now, if we want a Netflix or an
Speaker 1: Amazon purchase, we may not want those rights off the table,
Speaker 1: right So that definitely change the way we're thinking. Doesn't
Speaker 1: mean we won't do it though, But if you have
Speaker 1: the right leverage, our ability or partnership approach to the network,
Speaker 1: you can still retain rights. And the studios are still
Speaker 1: trying to monit ties rights all the way down the
Speaker 1: revenue stream. We make a lot of programming for the
Speaker 1: c W and CBS studios and Warner Brothers make their
Speaker 1: money off the network. That's why they keep it in
Speaker 1: business and off the shows and exploiting it off of
Speaker 1: the c W and c W made a really strong
Speaker 1: Netflix deal that also benefits studio partners and therefore it's
Speaker 1: rights participants and the most money um most people have
Speaker 1: made is being a participant on a studio's exploitation of
Speaker 1: a big time broadcast show that is definitely under threat,
Speaker 1: but you would still rather be participating in the big
Speaker 1: bang theory than owning, you know, a big Netflix, Apple
Speaker 1: premium show. And we're just trying to have the right
Speaker 1: mix of those shows. Will there be a place that
Speaker 1: actually exploits those We just saw a hundred plus million
Speaker 1: dollars being spent on the Friend renewal twenty plus years
Speaker 1: off after it exited its primary distribution. And you know,
Speaker 1: as producers of the Office, I was gonna say, how
Speaker 1: fast did you called tent sorrendos. It's less ted sorrendous
Speaker 1: than the clear reality that that show has found in
Speaker 1: the Office has found a new audience, has grown in
Speaker 1: its importance not only to Netflix but to Comcast. Over
Speaker 1: time after it's gotten off the air, it's found a
Speaker 1: younger you generate more like, yeah, more passionate audience even
Speaker 1: than when it was on air, and has been reported
Speaker 1: is the number one show on Netflix. And so when
Speaker 1: that contract is up, I've got to assume Apple, Amazon,
Speaker 1: Comcast itself, you know, are going to want to get
Speaker 1: those rights and use them for their own services. Now,
Speaker 1: how transparent will those transactions be and how will those
Speaker 1: um questions be viewed? And is self dealing now something
Speaker 1: that's accepted where it wasn't before. You know, those are
Speaker 1: all things that as participants we have to really look
Speaker 1: at closely and ensure that we're being protected in that process.
Speaker 1: So many, so many moving parts there does does the
Speaker 1: coming together of Disney Fox and Disney's goal of launching uh,
Speaker 1: not only the Disney Plus service, but a suite of services?
Speaker 1: Does that? Is that energizing or does that give you pause? Oh?
Speaker 1: My god, here's another vertically integrated walled garden that Disney
Speaker 1: is going to want to do so much of the
Speaker 1: programming all themselves so that they can own every stitch
Speaker 1: of it. We hope they all want to kill each
Speaker 1: other as as long as as long as they're as
Speaker 1: able to sustain and support the investment, which Bob Iger
Speaker 1: has said he will, which the Burke is that he will,
Speaker 1: which clearly testsorad Us and Rehastings have said they will,
Speaker 1: and um, then we want them in the strong is
Speaker 1: shape to be able to invest at scale. Now, will
Speaker 1: we be able to monetize those the same way? It's
Speaker 1: unclear because we haven't yet seen it launched. The merger
Speaker 1: hasn't even formally been uh completed, so it's not they're
Speaker 1: not like kind of telegraphing it out. But I imagine
Speaker 1: if you have the right compelling content, they will be
Speaker 1: bidding against each other to to ensure that that content
Speaker 1: is on their service and that they're going to then
Speaker 1: drive the subscription revenue that will make it worthwhile for
Speaker 1: them to invest against that content. And as new players
Speaker 1: enter the market, you see business models change and you
Speaker 1: see people taking risks. As Ben said, competition breeds um opportunity.
Speaker 1: And we still like broadcast television a ton, and we
Speaker 1: still like cable telling. You know, these things haven't yet
Speaker 1: fallen off the cliff. It's clearly going down every year
Speaker 1: in terms of absolute ratings. But um, the moment right
Speaker 1: now is still the past and in the future, I
Speaker 1: think we're anticipating that this future arrives quicker and quicker
Speaker 1: and Netflix kind of shifting how it does deals. Was it,
Speaker 1: you know, rude awakening I think for many people in
Speaker 1: the business. Yeah, you reversing what their initial structures were.
Speaker 1: You guys, I have to ask you, you guys were
Speaker 1: very early in on Apple. You did one of their
Speaker 1: first original shows, Planet of the Apps. Do you have
Speaker 1: a sense of what's going on there when we're gonna
Speaker 1: see when we're going to see something official from them
Speaker 1: on what well what their video division has been cooking
Speaker 1: up for the last eighteen months. They're making bets and
Speaker 1: I think that they obviously need to figure out their
Speaker 1: distribution strategy. Anybody killed us some Plant of the Apps
Speaker 1: because they didn't have it in place, you know, and
Speaker 1: and that was really disappointing for us because it's still
Speaker 1: one of the shows that we made that which is, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so qualitative. But if you build it in the
Speaker 1: middle of the artist and no one sees it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: Do you own that show? Do you do you with
Speaker 1: the Apple who controls its exploitation? Unfortunately for us, because
Speaker 1: otherwise you would be seeing it all over all over
Speaker 1: the world with UH with Apple among others. Though it
Speaker 1: needs to play out like it's not clear yet. You know,
Speaker 1: they're obviously investing in development and executives, but it's not
Speaker 1: yet a transparent strategy. It's not something that is you
Speaker 1: bring them content, they're explaining to you how they're going
Speaker 1: to exploit or distribute it. I think they get away
Speaker 1: with a lot with the halo of the brand having
Speaker 1: some kind of equity in our community, not just not
Speaker 1: just in the technology tech community. Um, but I'm and
Speaker 1: Howard are really excited that Disney Comcast, the traditional guys
Speaker 1: who speak our language, who work in our business, are
Speaker 1: are going to be inside the inside the same race.
Speaker 1: Because I was worried for a while they were just
Speaker 1: absconding and now they're going time out. We're going to
Speaker 1: do this too. Yeah. Yeah, Now it's a two nineteen
Speaker 1: should be. It'll be very interesting to see, you know,
Speaker 1: how the landscape has changed. Just in and I just
Speaker 1: taking something like Mary Poppins, which my children discovered through
Speaker 1: the Linen Manuel version. And then you're back at home
Speaker 1: and we're buying and ordering the Dick van Dyke version,
Speaker 1: and you know that's a pretty valuable uh property, you know,
Speaker 1: and you start to think, okay, and now if you
Speaker 1: close it in and for one fee instead of having
Speaker 1: to buy it twice, which we did over the holidays,
Speaker 1: you could be getting it all. Um, we'll be paying
Speaker 1: for that, you know, and as a family. And so
Speaker 1: there's a lot and you can't you know, discount Star
Speaker 1: Wars and other things and with Universal and NBC and Comcast,
Speaker 1: and there's some amazing assets. And then you know, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't undercut the value and the opportunities with Showtime and
Speaker 1: CBS all Access. You know, even the small players have
Speaker 1: audience and relationship and dynamic and you know they're Let's
Speaker 1: talk about the talent representation business because there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of activity lions Gate about three arts. You guys
Speaker 1: are now the majority owner of Artists First. Um, you
Speaker 1: know that Anne of the US says a partnership with
Speaker 1: Paramount and Lorraine Jobs as an investor. Endeavor's got silver
Speaker 1: Lake and they're doing a production company. Paul Lee's working
Speaker 1: for CIA trying to you know, produce package backed by TPG.
Speaker 1: You know. So it's all all the mrc as overall
Speaker 1: deals with U t A and in three sixty you know,
Speaker 1: so yeah, there's a there's a lot of coming together here.
Speaker 1: But do you for Artists first? Was there is there
Speaker 1: just the the pure traditional representation business? Is that still
Speaker 1: a business? Is that is that something that gives you
Speaker 1: a nice foundation? Completely? Like the value of talent in
Speaker 1: this next iteration is not going down, it's going up,
Speaker 1: and you've seen it in some of the mega deals
Speaker 1: that some of the platforms are making to secure talented
Speaker 1: Key Barris, who is represented by Artists First UM and
Speaker 1: so so the actual value proposition for these brilliant creators
Speaker 1: has gone up in terms of how they participate and
Speaker 1: are compensated. So we completely believe in that and also
Speaker 1: how they can be unlocked into these new businesses, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's Kate Hudson doing Letica, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 1: Those kind of partnerships are in brand building. I think
Speaker 1: we've also witnessed the past ten fifteen years this kind
Speaker 1: of age of celebrity is entrepreneur and so three sixty
Speaker 1: approach exactly to these really connective talent and celebrities who
Speaker 1: actually have this direct consumer relationship that's opened up through
Speaker 1: social media and active Instagram and conversation of their consumer
Speaker 1: and audience and fans and all of that is super
Speaker 1: interesting to us inside the talent business, as the talent
Speaker 1: business separate from the talent business as a place to
Speaker 1: build productions and content. How did the Rain relationship come about? Um,
Speaker 1: we knew Joe Ravage a very long time and he
Speaker 1: had pursued doing a deal with me for years and
Speaker 1: after Howard had made do you want to talk about
Speaker 1: the and he came in, you know first, and UM
Speaker 1: I had had we have had a long relationship with UM,
Speaker 1: you know, Nancy and Paul team, and so they came
Speaker 1: in and Ben consulted me through that process. And that
Speaker 1: was in two thiften when you were launching the company.
Speaker 1: Partnered with any network. I partnered with Any Networks and
Speaker 1: UM thankfully had my concibiliary and mentor. UM advised me
Speaker 1: through that process. But I had thought of the time,
Speaker 1: as did been, that it was smart to have a
Speaker 1: distribution partner. It was smart to have a partner who
Speaker 1: was in the UM you know, content distribution game. Who
Speaker 1: needs producers, creative producers in deeds you know, UM great,
Speaker 1: I p and that was a real so that that
Speaker 1: was the first kind of peg of the building of
Speaker 1: the company and UM as as Ben joined formally and
Speaker 1: came in, we we UM. We had proved to ANY
Speaker 1: pretty quickly that we were a growth opportunity for them,
Speaker 1: you know, and they at the time we're investing in
Speaker 1: in addition to advice, we're investing in a lot of
Speaker 1: different creative producers in different types of businesses. Ours. I
Speaker 1: think transcended pretty quickly, and um, with that, they wanted
Speaker 1: to grow and we had often you know, thought that
Speaker 1: that was just the beginning. And I think Ben had
Speaker 1: been hit on by a lot of people to begin organizations,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of big multimedia international UH media
Speaker 1: players had been pursuing Ben, and I think that, um,
Speaker 1: my relationship with him, I think that he saw a
Speaker 1: friend and familiar believer in the business and how we
Speaker 1: want to grow it. And Ben, you know, you talked
Speaker 1: about Rain because that was really Joe and Ben had
Speaker 1: had a longstanding relationship and as much as we did
Speaker 1: want to grow, we were not pursuing once you joined us,
Speaker 1: we were not pursuing opportunities. We were kind of growing
Speaker 1: and organically and the business was sustaining and quickly you know, evolving.
Speaker 1: UM I think that Rain proved to us to be
Speaker 1: long term players versus traditional kind of bankers, you know,
Speaker 1: looking tom to come in and exploit an opportunity. I
Speaker 1: think they're they're long term growth players, and we look
Speaker 1: at this as an opportunity to grow a long term
Speaker 1: business and something that you know, we can believe in
Speaker 1: and stay a part of and grow and with, you know,
Speaker 1: the people who work for us and even you know,
Speaker 1: our children, you know, to be part of it. And
Speaker 1: I think Rain has that kind of similar sensibility. They
Speaker 1: believe in content. Yeah, and clearly by way that where
Speaker 1: they have parked some of their money with I Magine
Speaker 1: Magin and Matt and Trey, Matt Parker and Trip, Trey
Speaker 1: Parker and Matt Stone and so had a long standing
Speaker 1: relationship and was actually sitting down with Joe prior and
Speaker 1: concurrently to Howard setting up to talk about potentially trying
Speaker 1: to buy elect this from I see, which didn't want
Speaker 1: to sell at the time, and I realized I wanted
Speaker 1: to exit, to go do something bigger and a scale
Speaker 1: with more support, and was talking to Joe about all
Speaker 1: the various players who were chasing me at that time
Speaker 1: and UM and through that process He's like, well, we
Speaker 1: want to do this. You know, we've now started primary
Speaker 1: investments and a fund beyond our previous UM investment banking role,
Speaker 1: marching banking role, and Joe Rabbage, Jeff sign, Eric Hodge,
Speaker 1: Heather Stein in the people we met there were all
Speaker 1: just so intelligent and great. We love that they were
Speaker 1: so internationally oriented themselves. They have LPs from all over
Speaker 1: the world, from Mobable Law in Abu Dhabi to WPP
Speaker 1: in New York and London, and offices all over the
Speaker 1: world as well, with people who are not only supporting
Speaker 1: our business but are actually out there every day thinking
Speaker 1: about it as as investors in the business. And they,
Speaker 1: as Howard said, really get the business. This wasn't going
Speaker 1: to a company that its assets or entires or or
Speaker 1: um you know, or non media or content related. These
Speaker 1: are people who knew intimately the way that our business operated,
Speaker 1: and their philosophy around this is there's this arms race
Speaker 1: going on and you guys are bullet makers. Imagines a
Speaker 1: bullet maker, and Matt and Trey are bullet makers, and
Speaker 1: if and if we can thrive, you know, there's going
Speaker 1: to be a need for the product you create. And
Speaker 1: what was also great is the senior management hitting any
Speaker 1: when we had come in, knew that we were going
Speaker 1: to bring in another partner, and so having to minority
Speaker 1: investors is so different than the way Howard and I
Speaker 1: had worked previously, where we basically had majority owners like this,
Speaker 1: you know, and with Shine, you know, being kind of
Speaker 1: more owned than than invested on a certain level. And
Speaker 1: this now kind of fully liberated us to be in
Speaker 1: charge of our own destiny. And as Joe, Jeff and
Speaker 1: Eric said to us so many times, like this is
Speaker 1: you need to do this now, like this is your
Speaker 1: moment to go build this and run it on your
Speaker 1: own and see it through and build something up scale.
Speaker 1: And they they were the ones who approached us on electists,
Speaker 1: they said, because I didn't want to feel like we
Speaker 1: were going after it for some vanity or to kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, close off some story. You know, they really
Speaker 1: were the ones coming us saying, hey, they're in this process,
Speaker 1: and I think there may be a moment where we
Speaker 1: can enter this process. And you guys would say that
Speaker 1: I had to kind of been I said Ben, you know,
Speaker 1: because again he was a little he had done the
Speaker 1: electist thing, right. I mean, that's what I feel like.
Speaker 1: It was like someone, you know, do I need to
Speaker 1: go back to that. I thought that Ben knew that
Speaker 1: business better than anyone, and if anyone could drive drive
Speaker 1: value out of it, it was you know Ben, and
Speaker 1: our team is a Andy still an investor, Yeah they are.
Speaker 1: And I will just go back and say it help
Speaker 1: that a Andy and Rain had a great rapport Nancy
Speaker 1: and Joe served together on the vice board, the vice board,
Speaker 1: and they had a real familiarity and David Glamville Smith
Speaker 1: who's the CEO, and Paul Boucherry the CEO, where people
Speaker 1: we had worked with forever, and Paul had done all
Speaker 1: that i TV roll up and knew our in our
Speaker 1: business inside and out world and so so there were
Speaker 1: such a shorthand between Paul Digger Us and UH and
Speaker 1: the Rain team. Both sets are minority investors in the
Speaker 1: business and both are super supportive of the business um,
Speaker 1: but neither one can trump the other. So it's really
Speaker 1: great to have people who are honest, and we're thrilled
Speaker 1: that our board is comprised of the senior leadership at
Speaker 1: those companies. To having Paul, Digger, Eric and Joe on
Speaker 1: our board is also unlocked so much intellectual power, right
Speaker 1: plus opportunities that I'm sure you know and has quite
Speaker 1: has very big international reach and it all seems to
Speaker 1: feed into what you're trying to do completely. And so
Speaker 1: when they have networks overseas and they domestically, they need hits,
Speaker 1: you know, and hopefully we are hit makers. What's I
Speaker 1: didn't realize just how much international activity you have going on.
Speaker 1: What is the hardest thing about producing a show outside
Speaker 1: of the US is it? Is it navigating the local
Speaker 1: orting to be there, getting on a plane every every
Speaker 1: other day, right part of well, um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not as hard making them. For Netflix and other US
Speaker 1: based companies that are entering international markets, it is, um
Speaker 1: sometimes a little tricker, trickier, you know, knowing how format delivery,
Speaker 1: UM act break down and just some of this stuff
Speaker 1: that works inside the mechanics. But a show is a show,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not It's not that far off from
Speaker 1: how we do it here. You know, cash flow issues,
Speaker 1: payment issues, you know, things like that require local partners.
Speaker 1: And that's why everything we've ever done The Naughty Brothers
Speaker 1: are French, and we've brought in a brilliant French producer
Speaker 1: to work under us on that, a woman named Marie
Speaker 1: and uh, and what we're doing in Mexico for Netflix
Speaker 1: involves Mexican production partners, you know, and so those kind
Speaker 1: of and what we're doing in France involves people that
Speaker 1: we've both worked with over twenty years. Yeah, these are
Speaker 1: people internationally oriented, like Eduard Debazine ran Europa Corp. And
Speaker 1: was a producer on English language global shows out of
Speaker 1: France and addition to local French movies. I think we
Speaker 1: believe there's great opportunity unlock French and German and Francophone
Speaker 1: and Portrague ease and talent as well. And I think
Speaker 1: that's a new migration. If before Howard and I looked
Speaker 1: to the international market for I p to replicate and
Speaker 1: remake here that could then travel back around the world,
Speaker 1: now we're also looking for the voices and the talent
Speaker 1: that can work on global content. And I think you're
Speaker 1: seeing more and more the strength of the founder creators
Speaker 1: and writers who are representative artists first are equal to
Speaker 1: the talent that is inside Hollywood m I think that
Speaker 1: has very much with the internationalizations. It opened up the
Speaker 1: eyes and you think about how you know Pada, and
Speaker 1: you think about you know, you think about all these shows.
Speaker 1: People want the creators of those shows, uh creating other
Speaker 1: shows you know. So, um so that's that's something we're
Speaker 1: excited about unlocking because we have a lot of those relationships.
Speaker 1: Um you both had, at various times had stints as
Speaker 1: executives in more traditional television companies. It feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: many centuries ago in some ways, when you think about
Speaker 1: how much has changed. But what would you say for
Speaker 1: both of you? How are you were at National Geographic Television,
Speaker 1: ven you were at NBC, what would you what? What
Speaker 1: would you say that your experience at those companies, running
Speaker 1: those at a high level? What did you learn not
Speaker 1: to do when you went into your entrepreneurial modes. I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like I learned a ton. You know, you're
Speaker 1: inside that you're inside the factory, you're inside the system,
Speaker 1: and as an agent and as some and then as
Speaker 1: a producer selling to those people and wanting to, you know,
Speaker 1: make sure that they loved your product and wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure that they positioned it at the right night,
Speaker 1: and wanted to make sure they marketed coming out of
Speaker 1: the right show and all those things. But not really knowing,
Speaker 1: you know, until you're in there. How it gets down.
Speaker 1: The first thing I would say is I did know
Speaker 1: a lot of it, Like I knew more than I thought.
Speaker 1: When I came into Natchie, I'm like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: actually how I thought it would work. Um, there weren't
Speaker 1: a ton of sur rises, but I think you know, Um,
Speaker 1: what I saw in Nago was the value of a brand,
Speaker 1: a global brand like national geographic channels that could launch
Speaker 1: shows day and date in the United States, in Germany,
Speaker 1: in you name it right. You know, it's a complete
Speaker 1: global channel. And I thought the opportunity to tap tap
Speaker 1: into global stories. I mean, I think when I was
Speaker 1: at Nagio, that was when UM, you know, Netflix was
Speaker 1: gaining prominence and you could see international global creators creating
Speaker 1: content that UM, you know, was popular not only the America,
Speaker 1: but in Germany and other places simultaneously. UM, you know
Speaker 1: me personally there. I also, you know, we always had
Speaker 1: a love for documentary storytelling UM. One of the first
Speaker 1: shows that we UM we produced coming out of UM
Speaker 1: starting Reaveli, was the nine eleven documentary with the naw
Speaker 1: Day Brothers and UM having always been a fan of
Speaker 1: it but not having done a ton of it at
Speaker 1: Reabeli when the market was a little more commercial, UM
Speaker 1: format driven, UM, I got a chance to work with
Speaker 1: some of the best documentary filmmakers and creators tell stories
Speaker 1: about natural history, tell stories about UM things that science
Speaker 1: and UM that I was totally passionate about. So in
Speaker 1: that regard, I'm not sure that's the question has but
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I really enjoyed UM and what
Speaker 1: I took with me, you know, leaving that GM and
Speaker 1: I think taking out of those organizations in applying it
Speaker 1: into an entrepreneurial environment. One of the key elements is
Speaker 1: understand your buyer, you know, and that total of knowledge
Speaker 1: we have around their issues, their needs and their accounting,
Speaker 1: you know, very simple things that are kind of behind
Speaker 1: the curtain to most suppliers and producers. And how a
Speaker 1: broadcaster or a studio does its accounting, does its budgeting,
Speaker 1: does it assignments stuff? You know, all of those things
Speaker 1: help us be better sellers and know where we can
Speaker 1: kind of position something for the long haul for a partner.
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons that I had such a
Speaker 1: shorthand with Mark Petowitz at the CW because I recognized
Speaker 1: how his ad sales matrix worked. I knew the importance
Speaker 1: of that Netflix partnership. I knew that his studios were
Speaker 1: actually his bosses and you know, and ways in which
Speaker 1: you can help navigate that and deliver on that is
Speaker 1: is something that we brought to our entrepreneurial side and UM,
Speaker 1: and then I think there's also ways in which you
Speaker 1: can call bullshit on somebody sitting in the other seat,
Speaker 1: because you know that's actually not the way it is,
Speaker 1: and no, you do have pressure to do this, and
Speaker 1: we can kind of shortcut a lot. Having been in
Speaker 1: those jobs and recognizing both the needs, the challenges and
Speaker 1: the lies that are sometimes told to be told told
Speaker 1: to you on the outside, we were always kind of
Speaker 1: we were always very prepared in when we were going
Speaker 1: to sell a show and produce a show for network.
Speaker 1: We knew the network. I will say, as a buyer
Speaker 1: and sitting in the chair, it's shocking how many people
Speaker 1: come and pitch you who've never watched your channel, who
Speaker 1: are bringing you something. And so I think part of it, think,
Speaker 1: I think, and I think part of what's challenge like
Speaker 1: we don't quite understand everything going on at Netflix, we
Speaker 1: don't quite understand everything going on in some of these
Speaker 1: other new emerging platforms because they don't know, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's and that's part of it in how you
Speaker 1: think about something or anticipate, you know, where somebody will
Speaker 1: buy or um support your content. It's hard when they
Speaker 1: don't actually have those answers themselves, and they're trying to
Speaker 1: figure it out as they go. Anyway, as show by
Speaker 1: show is it where. Yeah, is there anything out there?
Speaker 1: I know this is a tough question, but I'm gonna
Speaker 1: throw it out anyway. Is there anything out there that
Speaker 1: would entice either of you to go back to a
Speaker 1: traditional media company, to run a traditional channel or a
Speaker 1: studio or do you just love being entrepreneurs from the
Speaker 1: hit list list? Um, I think there, Like I wish
Speaker 1: when I was at NBC it had been Comcast who
Speaker 1: owned NBC and not an NBC built for sale. Um,
Speaker 1: I think that there are some opportunities to really invest
Speaker 1: a ton in content that are appealing. Like it frustrates
Speaker 1: us a lot that ideas we know will work. I
Speaker 1: have to sometimes hit a wall that you know, we're
Speaker 1: not in control of opening. Um. That being said, neither
Speaker 1: Howard or I want to go uh work in that
Speaker 1: kind of rigorous, you know, regimented, closed environment. There's something
Speaker 1: so liberating that we can wake up in the morning
Speaker 1: and talk about a documentary, a drama series of French
Speaker 1: production a and now we're show you know, and and
Speaker 1: able to kind of go wherever your creativity and ambition
Speaker 1: takes you. Or in the talent business, you know, most
Speaker 1: of those conglomerates, it's got scared about being in the
Speaker 1: talent business, you know. So those are all things that
Speaker 1: are liberating on our side. And I don't think either
Speaker 1: of us would want to have to be inside one
Speaker 1: of those organizations. I know I would never do it again,
Speaker 1: but both of our But you raise a great point.
Speaker 1: Both of our organizations got huge cash infusions after we left.
Speaker 1: Nice to have that, I hear you wonderful. Thank you
Speaker 1: both so much for your time and talking through this
Speaker 1: is really interesting and good luck to you in twenty
Speaker 1: We'll check in with you maybe halfway through the year.
Speaker 1: We'll see how things are going to do. Would thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you for It's really great to see Cynthia, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Thanks Howard, thanks for listening. Be sure
Speaker 1: to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.
Speaker 1: M