1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: This is Everybody's business from Bloomberg Business Week. 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 3: I'm Max Chafkin and I'm Stacy Vannoxsmith. 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: Stacey. Have we got a story for you. 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 4: It is about the wildest, weirdest, most interesting man in crypto. 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: His name is Justin Sun will tell you all. 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 3: About it, Okay, I'm looking forward to that. Before we 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 3: get to that, We've got, of course, the big news 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 3: of the week, Max, government shutdown. 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: Oh Stacy, we're doing this again. 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 3: I know, I know, government shutdowns they happen periodically, but 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 3: this time I think is different. We've got Justin Wolfer's 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 3: an economists here to help us break that down. 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 4: And Stacy the underrated story of the week. Yeah, two 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 4: words for you, little teas splendid. 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 3: Daddy's splendid. Daddy's all right, hang around for that, Okay, Max. 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 3: This week the news has been completely are taken by 18 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 3: the government shutdown. It's all the headlines, it's everywhere, It's 19 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 3: all anybody can talk about. 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 4: Well, is Stacy, there is one very very positive economic 21 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 4: indicator that we need to discuss. 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 3: Yes, tell me I want some positive economic indicators. 23 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 4: Life of a Showgirl the new Taylor Swift album hitting 24 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 4: on Friday tomorrow. As we record this today, as you listen, 25 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 4: you know, Taylor Swift obviously huge mega phenomenon. She she 26 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 4: criss crosses the country raising hotel rooms. 27 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: Hit pause on the podcast and just go listen to that. 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 4: But I mean, seriously, this is it does feel like 29 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 4: a big cultural moment. You know, Taylor Swift obviously the 30 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 4: biggest pop star on the planet right now. 31 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: She's had this amazing run. 32 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 3: She's been mentioned in the Beige Book as I don't 33 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: know what courses that has moved local economies when her 34 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: concerts come through town. 35 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 4: That's what I was alluding to, like the arostour when 36 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 4: it would hit a town, like hotel room prices would 37 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 4: go way up, you know, restaurants would sell more. 38 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: I think there were literal earthquakes that. 39 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 4: Happened because people were moving around so much in these stadiums. 40 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 3: So you're saying, this is this moment, is the shutdown 41 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 3: versus Taylor Swift? Can she do enough to salvage the 42 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: US economy? I'm the government shutdown. 43 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 4: Donald Trump and Chuck Schumer, they all have their calculations 44 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 4: about where Americans are going to fall and how much 45 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 4: pain are people going to be willing to accept? But 46 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 4: they haven't counted on the fact that everyone's going to 47 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 4: be distracted for like the next month listening to this. 48 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 3: Album and dissecting all the lyrics. 49 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 4: Indeed, that aside Stacy, I mean, the shutdown is happening, 50 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 4: and like this sense of chaos, political chaos that then 51 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 4: kind of tries to spill into the business world that's 52 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 4: continuing this week, and I feel like that's maybe where 53 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 4: we need to start. 54 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, and in fact, I was at the University 55 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 3: of Michigan earlier this week. I got to drop in 56 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 3: on economist Justin Wolfer's ECON one oh one class, which 57 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: was delightful. It's a class of five hundred students and 58 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: at the end and I tracked some of them down 59 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 3: and asked them how they were feeling about the economy 60 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: and like what their worries were about the economy at 61 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: this moment. Here's what they said. What scares you about 62 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: the economy right now? 63 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: The cost of living? Like I have like a girlfriend, 64 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: and when we talk about. 65 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 4: Like our future, it's like are we gonna be able 66 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 4: to get a house or like what are we gonna do. 67 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: I think it's a lot harder for people to get jobs. 68 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 5: I think that's just a bigger worry and a lot 69 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 5: of students' minds. 70 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 6: I mean, I would agree with And I've applied to 71 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 6: a bunch of jobs like Panera, bread and. 72 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 4: Things like that, and I haven't heard bag at all. 73 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 6: I was originally given a pelgrant and then it got 74 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 6: taken away wit how saying I don't know, just like 75 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 6: the current administration announced that they would be like repealing 76 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 6: to a certain like student. 77 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: Like your pel grant got taken away? 78 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, just literally gone. There wasn't an edification or email 79 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 6: or anything. 80 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: It's just what was gone that scares you about the 81 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: economy right now, I would have. 82 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 7: To say the tariffs, And that's really terrifying because President 83 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 7: Trump does state that the other countries will be paying. 84 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: These taxes, but as we've also learned in econ one on. 85 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: One, American consumers will probably be paying a lot of 86 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: the tax for it. 87 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: The cost of food. 88 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 6: Remember, like back in the day, like you could get 89 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 6: a candy bar from ninety nine cents. 90 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: Right now get king sized candy bars going. 91 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 6: Up to like three dollars, three dollars fifty cents, Like 92 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 6: at the stadium. 93 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: A bottle of water could be like five six dollars. 94 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: So what, oh is this when you guys go to games? 95 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: Do you all go to games? 96 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 6: Yeah? 97 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, really University of Michigan, Big ten school, they all 98 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: go to the games. 99 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: You know what I love about that? 100 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 4: Like and I say love, but I mean what I 101 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 4: appreciate about hearing those voices. We live in an era 102 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: defined by kind of like reality television and social media, 103 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 4: where like presentation is everything, and our politics is playing 104 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 4: out essentially on screens, and you have these two sides 105 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 4: like trying to spin stuff. But all these policies, all 106 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 4: the stuff that's happening in the economy, it has consequences. 107 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 4: And that, like that woman talking about the pelgrant, Yeah, 108 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 4: is a consequence. 109 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: I mean sounds really bad. It sounds really tough. 110 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 4: And I do wonder as we think about how the 111 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 4: consequences of this government shutdown that we're entering right now 112 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 4: are going to play out. Those are the kinds of 113 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 4: stories that are going to define like how we experience it, 114 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 4: not like what Trump says on TV, not what Schumer 115 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 4: whoever says on TV. It's going to be stories like 116 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 4: that and and I don't know, I just feel like 117 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 4: we have to keep talking to those people. So good job, Stacey. 118 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 3: The teacher of these really lovely students is economist Justin Wolfers, 119 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: and he is here today to talk government shutdown. Thanks 120 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 3: again for letting me sit it on your class and welcome. 121 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 3: Hey Stacey, Justinould, what did you think of what your 122 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 3: students had to say? 123 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 7: Well, they're brilliant. They I think, well, try and articulate. 124 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 7: And I think it's so lovely to hear young voices 125 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 7: engaging in our economic debates. We're fighting about the future, 126 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 7: and that's who they are. 127 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: Is all around. 128 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 5: That's what I say, Oh, you're for grade inflation now. 129 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: But Justin, we brought you on to talk about the 130 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: government shutdown, that terrible moment when politics and economics meet 131 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: and it is a mess. And right now we are 132 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 3: in the middle of a shutdown. Before we kind of 133 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: jump into the more granular issues, what do you see 134 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: as going on here? 135 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 5: Mostly politics. 136 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 7: I understand that people's first instinct at a moment like 137 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 7: this is to call an economist because it feels like 138 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 7: a big deal economically. I think the reality is, if 139 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 7: we think about the macroeconomy, the ups and downs of 140 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 7: GDP and unemployment and recessions and booms and. 141 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 5: Stuff like that. It's just not that big of a deal. 142 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 7: So for folks who are not working in or very 143 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 7: closely with the government, what I think the appropriate status 144 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 7: is sort of disappointed parent. 145 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: But seven hundred and fifty thousand people are not working 146 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 3: today because of this, that feels like a big economic deal. 147 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 7: Absolutely, Although Stacy, there's one hundred and forty million people 148 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 7: who are and one hundred and forty million is substantially big. 149 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 7: In seven hundred and fifty thousand, we're probably talking about 150 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 7: a matter of weeks rather than the full year, and 151 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 7: so you start to do this sort of math and 152 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 7: it starts to become fractions of a percentage point. Look, 153 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 7: two things are true, and I want to be really 154 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 7: clear about it, and I thank you for drawing it. 155 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 7: It can be that something's not a major macroeconomic issue 156 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 7: yet still is a dumb and horrendous and pointless waste. 157 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 7: And were I president, it wouldn't change the reality that 158 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 7: a billion dollars is both a tiny fraction of GDP 159 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 7: and a ton of money and wasting it for no 160 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 7: reason whatsoever. Feels utterly pointless and utterly disparity. 161 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 4: So justin you're saying it, it doesn't matter economically, or 162 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 4: at least on a macroeconomic point of view. And I 163 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 4: feel like Stacey and I talked about this. We've both 164 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 4: been business journals for a long time. These shutdowns come 165 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 4: with some frequency, right, the last one was in twenty eighteen. 166 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 4: We're constantly hitting the debt ceiling. And if you've been 167 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 4: through this a few times, a dozen times, however many 168 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 4: it's been, you basically just start to feel like, eh, 169 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 4: like this is like they're going to get it figured out. 170 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 4: This is a sort of a manufactured political crisis. The 171 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 4: only thing that matters really is who gets blamed. 172 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: Right. 173 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 4: I do wonder if this one is a little bit different, 174 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 4: only because this is coming in a larger context, which 175 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 4: is that the Trump administration has been since the beginning, 176 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 4: since January, just trying in various ways to kind of 177 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 4: kneecap parts of the federal government. Right, and to me, 178 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 4: this really feels like an almost repeat of Doge, which 179 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 4: might seem weird to say, but like we had during 180 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 4: the first couple months of the administration, Elon Musk going 181 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 4: around sort of purporting to close various federal agencies laying 182 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 4: people off. I think it's yesterday as we record this 183 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 4: on Thursday, October two, that the workers who took deferred 184 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,599 Speaker 4: resignations are are in fact leaving the government. It's like 185 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 4: another one hundred thousand workers. And when you listen to 186 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 4: what the Trump administration is saying, and we listen to 187 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 4: what russ Vote the head of the OMB is saying, 188 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 4: they see this as an opportunity not just to furlough workers, 189 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 4: but to attack parts of the bureaucracy permanently. 190 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 7: Yes, so much. There max so full of ideas. Let 191 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 7: me start with the first one. You're like, eugh, another, 192 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 7: the government shutdown? Who cares? The problem with that thinking 193 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 7: is the thing that eventually ends the shutdown is people 194 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 7: are like, holy cow, this is terrible, and it causes 195 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 7: political pain for one side or other of politics. That 196 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 7: causes enough that pushes them back to the table, and 197 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 7: they sort it allowed. If we all sit around and 198 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 7: take people like me seriously and say, hey, it's not 199 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 7: that big of a deal, then actually it will never resolve. 200 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 7: And so I think your point that we're all sort 201 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 7: of a little bit indifferent, right, Well, battered, bruised, and 202 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 7: used to large scale shocks to how the government works. 203 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 7: Right now, this would have been outrageous six years ago, 204 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 7: and you and I I think our blood would have boiled. 205 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 7: And this might be the thirteenth worst thing to have 206 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 7: happened so far in October. That removes the urgency. And 207 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 7: if you remove the urgency, that then creates the possibility 208 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 7: that this one actually runs on a whole lot longer. 209 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 7: So the last one went thirty four days. When I 210 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 7: say government shutdowns are not a huge event, I should 211 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 7: say one, We're already shut down most of the government 212 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 7: two days every week, so if we made it a 213 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 7: third wouldn't be a big deal. 214 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: So the government gets shut down right now, it's not 215 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 3: that huge of a deal macroeconomically, and potentially, you know, 216 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: thousands of people will lose their jobs. 217 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 7: Wait, Stacy, could we just hold up because they want 218 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 7: to get the premise right. So what has historically happened 219 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 7: is non essential employees are told not to do any work. 220 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 7: The government remains shut down for two weeks then and 221 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 7: then they shutdown ends and they come back to work. 222 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 7: And usually in every past case, Congress has passed a 223 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 7: law saying even though you didn't do any work for 224 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 7: those two weeks, we're going to pay you anyway. So 225 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 7: no one historically was losing their jobs through this. And 226 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 7: then there's the essential workers who keep working, but they 227 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 7: keep working without getting paid, and then they'll get repaid later, 228 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 7: So there's no job cuts that are essential to this. 229 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 7: What this gets to, though, is Max's earlier point, which 230 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 7: is this is a political escalation at the current moment. 231 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 7: This one's different because normally presidents are embarrassed by their 232 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 7: inability to keep the government open. 233 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: Right this is like a shameful moment, like, oh, you 234 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 3: couldn't get it together and make a deal again, And. 235 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 5: What we have is escalation. 236 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 7: Certainly in claims the president says he's going to go 237 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 7: after democratic priorities. He's going to definitely not collect the 238 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 7: trash from outside Max's house, and so on. This president's saying, well, 239 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 7: you guys are doing me, I'm just going to fight back. 240 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 7: So it sounds like when my kids were five. He 241 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 7: has no new powers to fire people right now that 242 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 7: he didn't have yesterday. So if there was whole departments 243 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 7: he wanted to shut down, if he could do it, 244 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 7: he could do it. Two days ago, and he could 245 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 7: still do it in two days time. So the presidents 246 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 7: claim that this brings on an escalation. There's no structural 247 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 7: change that creates that escalation. So the escalation, though, is 248 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 7: that he would be taking advantage of the political moment 249 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 7: that somehow the press and the people would let it 250 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 7: slide that he's going to do something, and other times 251 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 7: we would find repugnant. 252 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 4: You know, I spent earlier this year a couple of 253 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 4: months reporting on Russ Vote, who I said, head of 254 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 4: the OMB, super interesting character. He wrote part of the 255 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 4: Project twenty twenty five. I think he was involved in 256 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 4: the last government shutdown in fact, and he was kind 257 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 4: of like hanging behind the scenes with Doge. 258 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: Right. 259 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 4: I described him as like, you know, I can't remember 260 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 4: the words I actually use, but like the real mastermind 261 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 4: or the ideological mastermind or something like that. And what's 262 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 4: interesting is Vote had been saying for like a decade 263 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 4: basically that if we could, we should just like cut 264 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: all these woke agencies, defang the deep state, massively cut 265 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 4: back in the government, and that that was like a 266 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 4: political end in itself, and that's what we saw essentially 267 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 4: with Doge A couple months ago right where where they 268 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 4: did this and then discovered, oh crap, it's unpopular. Elon 269 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 4: Musk suddenly had people protesting outside of his dealerships. People 270 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 4: were suddenly putting bumper stickers on their cars, you know, 271 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 4: trading their teslas in. People hated this because, you know, 272 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 4: for all the times we sort of complain and grouse 273 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 4: about the ways that the government doesn't work, like it 274 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 4: actually does work pretty well. 275 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: That was one of the things I think we learned 276 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 2: with Doge. 277 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 4: And now they're kind of trying to run it back, 278 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 4: but this time blame the Democrats. And like you said, 279 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 4: justin nothing's really changed from a legal perspective, although I'm 280 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 4: sure there might be arguments to be made about, oh, 281 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 4: maybe it's an emergency or something like that, But really 282 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 4: this is about can we pin this on Chuck Schumer? 283 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 4: And I don't know what the answer to that. I 284 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 4: don't think any of us actually know what the answer 285 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 4: to that. I'm not even sure russ Vote Donald Trump 286 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 4: or Chuck Schumer knows the answer. 287 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 7: I'm not a very good political scientist, so I'm far 288 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 7: less interested in who we pined on, although that's ultimately 289 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 7: going to be what results. Is right one side or 290 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 7: the other will find the situation's not working well for 291 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 7: them and it's better for them to end it. There's 292 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 7: a deeper economics here, which is why was Dozier failure 293 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 7: and why would the same logic fail at the current moment. 294 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 7: So many of us have an image in our minds 295 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 7: of the federal government is big and bloated and pointless. 296 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 7: And last time I went to the DMV, I thought 297 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 7: the person behind the count it might actually have been 298 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 7: a sloth. 299 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 5: There's a kid's movie where it's Zutopia. It is Utopia. 300 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got three little ones about twenty times. 301 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 7: It's a wonderful movie. But yeah, you walk in and like, literally, 302 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 7: the DMV is run by a sloth. And I've been 303 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 7: in that DMV and the sloth isn't even cute. They're 304 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 7: resentful and middle aged and slow moving. And we take. 305 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: That experience with that, I'm just kidding. 306 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 7: We take that experience and we projected on the rest 307 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 7: of government. There's a few things to recognize here. First 308 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 7: of all, most of our experiences with government, with these 309 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 7: annoying officers are actually state and local. 310 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, you're talking about a state 311 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 4: agency that's a problem from Michigan. 312 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 7: Absolutely, but we all have that idea, and that's why 313 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 7: there's this strong current, particularly through public and politics. Oh, 314 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 7: let's run the government like a business, or let's choke it, 315 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 7: or let's get rid of all these useless employees, which 316 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 7: is what you're hearing a lot of right now. That's 317 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 7: the wrong model for the federal government. There's an old 318 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 7: saying about the federal government. It's an insurance company with 319 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 7: an army. What do I mean by that? The federal 320 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 7: government most of its spending is on what we call 321 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 7: insurance programs. It's unemployment insurance, it's Medicare, it's Medicaid, and those. 322 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: Are like not an issue here at all. I mean, 323 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 3: those are mandatory things. That is not This is what 324 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: always blows my mind about the shutdowns. It's not about 325 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 3: the big stuff, you know. I looked into this. I 326 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 3: got really interested in how big a share of the 327 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: federal budget went to federal workers, and so I actually 328 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: looked this up, and as it turns out, if you 329 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 3: count the military of salary benefits, everything adds up to 330 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: about seven percent of the US budget, and if you 331 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: don't count the military, it's about five percent. So this 332 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: is a very small part of the budget. And then 333 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: this healthcare subsidy, the thing that's become a big point 334 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: of contention between the right and the left, these sort 335 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 3: of extra subsidies that got rolled out during the pandemic 336 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: to help people afford health insurance. I mean, that is 337 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 3: like zero point two percent of the budget. That's really little, 338 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 3: and it's just it really striking to me that so 339 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: much is happening over something that is such a small 340 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: part of the seven trillion dollar budget that we spend 341 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: every year. 342 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 7: The federal government's it's a small share of the economy. 343 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 7: Much of its function is printing Social Security chicks does 344 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 7: checks is still going to go out. There are important 345 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 7: things the federal government does. Some of them will be 346 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 7: shut down for a small number of weeks. Maybe I 347 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 7: just want to come back to this is not a 348 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 7: macroeconomic moment. Every dollar we waste is a dollar we 349 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 7: didn't have to waste, and it's all for political posturing. 350 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 7: So it's as if we've just given several billion dollars 351 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 7: to both Democrats and Republicans to spend on political advertising 352 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 7: so they can yell at each other. 353 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 3: And the billion dollars is that the cost or what is. 354 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 7: The cost here, It's going to be several billion, which 355 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 7: again is a real amount of money. I hate wasting 356 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 7: a billion dollars. We could spend that billion building schools, 357 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 7: or feeding hungry or giving tax cuts to people whose 358 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,959 Speaker 7: yachts are not big enough, guilding the White House, gilding. 359 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 7: We could probably guild another whole room with that. One 360 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 7: part of the story we haven't told is the public servants. Right, 361 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 7: These are real people who I teach the other job 362 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 7: I have you started with my economic students. I also 363 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 7: teaching the Ford School of Public Policy. These are young 364 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 7: things in their early twenties who answered Kennedy's call to 365 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 7: ask not what your country can do for you, but 366 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 7: what you can do for your country, who believe deeply 367 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 7: and profoundly in public service and have gone off to 368 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 7: school to become smarter at it, and can't wait to 369 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 7: go back out there and serve the greater good. And 370 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 7: they're being treated appallingly. They're being treated as if they're 371 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 7: the public enemy. For the generation of students I'm teaching 372 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 7: right now, there may not be jobs for them. For 373 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 7: the folks who are currently in the federal government, which 374 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 7: includes many of my former students. They're being asked to 375 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 7: go without pay for as long as the politicians decide. 376 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 7: And that's the thing I will just tell you. This 377 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 7: is not being an economist, This is being a person. 378 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 7: I find it utterly dismaying the extent to which we 379 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 7: are using people as pawns in greater political games. And 380 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 7: I've seen more of that since January of twenty twenty 381 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 7: five than I've ever seen in my life. And every 382 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 7: time I see it, it churns my stomach a lot. 383 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: Wow, justin, thank you for being here. Thank you, justin, 384 00:18:58,680 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: thank you very much. 385 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: Okay, Max, at the top of the show, you promised 386 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 3: that we were going to hear about the most interesting 387 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 3: man in crypto. It is time to deliver. 388 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, but we need to back up, and I just 389 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 4: need to explain a little bit about Trump and crypto 390 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 4: because I think that's what the big issue here is. 391 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 3: Okay. I do feel like the first six months of 392 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 3: the Trump presidency there's been a lot of crypto news. 393 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 3: Some of it I followed, some of it not so much. 394 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 3: So what is going on right now with Trump and crypto? 395 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is an industry that Trump seemed to despise, 396 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 4: during his first term. It's also one that I'm sure 397 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 4: most listeners know. Lots of controversy, lots of allegations, some 398 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 4: big ups, some big downs, and many of the leading 399 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 4: lights you know going back a few years ago were 400 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 4: either criminally charged or convicted or the subject of SEC cases. 401 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 4: And basically Stacy, with a couple of exceptions, all those 402 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 4: cases pretty much are gone now they've been. 403 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 3: The President has his own coin, the Converted. 404 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 4: Indeed, yeah, he's he's in the crypto business now. And 405 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 4: there's an amazing BusinessWeek story out right now that kind 406 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 4: of explains this. 407 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: It's focused on Justin Sun, who. 408 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 4: Is, like I said, this wild figure in the industry. 409 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 4: He's the founder of the blockchain network Tron will explain 410 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 4: what that is in a second. He owns that big 411 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 4: famous banana or the banana that was duct taped to 412 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 4: the wall, oh. 413 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 3: The art piece. Is he the guy who ate the banana? 414 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: He ate the banana. 415 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 4: And the best thing about this story is that it 416 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 4: was written by our colleague Zeke Fox, who wrote a 417 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 4: book about crypto It's called Number Go Up. It's really 418 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 4: like the best book that I've read on the subject. 419 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 4: Zeke is basically an expert in all kinds of financial chicanery. 420 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 4: He covered all those ups and downs that I mentioned, 421 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 4: and I wanted to talk to him and try to 422 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 4: understand the story and why all these guys who I 423 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 4: thought of as controversial figures, who would never find themselves 424 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 4: in a room with anybody close to the presidency, are 425 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 4: now in position of power. 426 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: What do they want? What does it mean for our country? 427 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 3: So this story is called a crypto Billionaire's Path from 428 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 3: Pariah to Trump Moneyman, and ze grote it with Muyaushin 429 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: Max take. 430 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: It away, Zeke, thanks for joining us. 431 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: Thanks Max. 432 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 4: So you and I I think have covered aspects of 433 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 4: this world for a long time. I thought of you 434 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 4: always as like an expert on the on financial scams, 435 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 4: of which there are many in the world of crypto, 436 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 4: and I had kind of gotten interested because of tech 437 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 4: and politics and the way that crypto guys we're trying 438 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 4: to be influential, and Justin Son kind of fits into 439 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 4: both of these worlds. 440 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: He was sued by the SEC. 441 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 4: In twenty twenty three, accused of I'm selling unregistered securities, 442 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 4: of manipulating the market for tokens and tron He denied wrongdoing, 443 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 4: but then also, and this is where things get kind 444 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 4: of interesting, the suit was paused after Sun happened to 445 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 4: pay seventy five million dollars. It's a lot of money 446 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 4: to a company controlled by the Trump family. And at 447 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 4: some point he also invested fifteen million dollars. For those 448 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 4: keeping track at home, that's ninety million total in Trump's 449 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 4: mean coin. We're not sure of the timing there. Maybe 450 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 4: he was before or after the sec thing, but either way, 451 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 4: after this big initial investment, Justin Son and the Trump 452 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 4: family go into business together. 453 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: Did I get all that right, Zeke. 454 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, as long as we're just very strict on the 455 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: we're talking about time here. Son first invested ninety million 456 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: dollars in Trump coins, and then the lawsuit was paused. 457 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: We don't know why exactly. 458 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 4: I'm just kind of curious that somebody who had kind 459 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 4: of followed these figures in crypto for a long time, 460 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 4: Justin Son being kind of an important figure in this world. 461 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 4: Were you surprised when he just like showed up in 462 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 4: Trump world, you know, when he appeared at this event 463 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 4: in Arlington and like gave a speech next to Trump. 464 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: Yes and no. Within crypto, Son is infamous as lawyers 465 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: for Coinbase, the biggest US crypto company, once set in court. 466 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: He's kind of mysterious, like people aren't quite sure how 467 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: rich he is or how he made his money, but 468 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: he's really out there. He loves publicity stunts. He commissioned 469 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: a theme song for his blockchain tron by the Oscar 470 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: winning composer Hans Zimmer. He paid millions of dollars to 471 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: have lunch with Warren Buffett try to pitch him on crypto. 472 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: It did not work. 473 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Buffett not a fan of crypto in general. 474 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: Hates crypto. And he ran for prime minister of the 475 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: libertarian micro state liber Land. 476 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 2: Right, which, as I understand, that's somewhere in the Balkans. 477 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: Is he is he the prime minister. 478 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: He's the prime Minister, right. 479 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 4: Okay, And he likes to be referred to as your excellency. 480 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 4: He has a title to that effect from Janata. 481 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: Yes, the title does come from Grenada, and this was 482 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: because he was appointed their ambassador to the World Trade Organization. 483 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to take a wild guess of how you 484 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: get that appointment. 485 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: So at the time, it has since come out that 486 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: there was kind of a scandal there and diplomatic posts 487 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: were for sale for one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. 488 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: We asked Son how he got his post, and his 489 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: lawyer said there was no impropriety. 490 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 2: Okay. 491 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 4: So Sun is this larger than life figure, and like 492 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 4: you said, you know, he's sort of everywhere and nowhere 493 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 4: in crypto. I think over the last like ten years 494 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 4: or so, this company Tron, was at the center of 495 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 4: this sec thing that was dropped. 496 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: It's his main thing, Like what is Tron? 497 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Sun's been around since the twenty seventeen ICO 498 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: boom initial coin offering. Yes, and this was like the 499 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: first crypto bubble when it seemed like anybody who just 500 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: said the word blockchain could raise tons of money for whatever. 501 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: The pitch was like pretty vague. It was going to 502 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: be like a new decentralized Internet, it was going to 503 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: be for content, it was going to be an app store. 504 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: But at that time it didn't really matter. And Son 505 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: had kind of a following from his podcast in China 506 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: called the Road to Financial Freedom Revolution, and so he 507 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: raised I think seventy million dollars or so for Tron 508 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: in this ICO despite the kind of vague pitch and 509 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: what tron is is very similar to other blockchains. So 510 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: if you only think of crypto as like a replacement 511 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: for dollars, that's kind of like a outdated vision of 512 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: the industry, And a blockchain is kind of like a ledger. 513 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: The thing. 514 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 4: The thing usually here is that it's a distributed ledger. 515 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 4: It's like a way of keeping track of payments. But 516 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 4: there are lots of people who think it could be 517 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 4: useful for other things like tracking inventory or something like that. 518 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 2: I think that's the explanation and. 519 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 4: The one that is used when people are trying to 520 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 4: explain why crypto isn't just a bunch of guys essentially 521 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 4: trying to pump up worthless currencies. 522 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and tron has become There's one particular thing that 523 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: it's mainly used for, which is a stable coin called Tether, 524 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: just sort of like a digital dollar, And often when 525 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: people transact in Tether, they're using tron to do so. 526 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 4: So and Tether is used by people who are investing 527 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 4: in cryptocurrencies. 528 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 2: It's also. 529 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 4: Very very useful for people who are trying to move 530 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 4: money around without it being noticed, so that could be 531 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 4: like money launders, criminals, terrorists, and so on. 532 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the last few years, word has definitely spread 533 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: around the criminal world that there is this cool new 534 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: way of moving money from person to person that does 535 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: not involve revealing your identity. 536 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 4: Right, and a bunch of disclaimers here, number one, pretty 537 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 4: much everyone in the crypto industry. When when people point 538 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 4: this out, we'll say something like, you know, US dollars 539 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 4: are used by money launders and drug dealers. No one 540 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 4: is trying to get rid of the US dollar. Does 541 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 4: it make the Federal Reserve complicit in drug dealing? We 542 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 4: are trying to stop illegal activity. This is just like 543 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 4: kind of a bad thing that's happening. And then the 544 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 4: last thing they bring up is that, you know, many 545 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 4: of these currencies are decentralized, like we don't even control 546 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 4: like what is happening on this network. 547 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: Really, they try to say, like a blockchain like Bitcoin 548 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: or Tron, it's like the protocols that power email or websites. Right, 549 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: we don't see anyone going after them this technology. Yeah, 550 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: Tron and Tether formed the T three Financial Crime Unit, 551 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: and they've said that even know it's just technology, we 552 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: don't want people doing bad things here. We're going to 553 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: try our best to root out crime. 554 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 4: So just to take a few steps back from the 555 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 4: sort of questions around Justin Son, he was part of 556 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 4: this larger, essentially like romance between Trump and the crypto industry. 557 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 4: It started, you know, sort of mid campaign last year. 558 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 4: I BLUs is like July at the Bitcoin conference, and 559 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 4: I think the conventional wisdom for why Donald Trump, a 560 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 4: populist who had in the past said that he, you know, 561 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 4: thinks crypto is terrible, he prefers the dollar, you know, 562 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 4: in all sorts of ways, doesn't seem like the kind 563 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 4: of guy who would want to embrace crypto. The conventional 564 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 4: wisdom I think for why he embraced it is basically money. 565 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 4: That this is a big class of donors and they 566 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 4: were all writing him checks and as a result, you 567 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 4: had this kind of confluence where Trump took a lot 568 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 4: of crypto money, he got into the crypto business, and 569 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 4: he's also been changing policy and making and causing the 570 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 4: SEC to drop cases such as the one that Justin 571 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 4: Sun's involved in. If you had to make a case 572 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 4: for like why Trump would embrace crypto at that moment, 573 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 4: like what is the case for doing it outside of donations, 574 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 4: just like trying to please donors, like is there any 575 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 4: way that what these guys are offering, either for the 576 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 4: American economy or for the global economy somehow like fits 577 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 4: Trump's agenda. 578 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 1: I mean, the Trump argument is that the traditional players 579 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: in a financial system have been discriminating against conservatives. They've 580 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: been cutting off bank accounts of people like the Trumps 581 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: because of like the perceived risk of dealing with them. 582 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: Right, this is the decentralization thing. 583 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 4: Maybe you can't stop money laundering as well as you 584 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 4: could if it were centralized, but you also can't discriminate 585 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 4: against ideological viewpoints. 586 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 587 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: I think that Trump he has a lot of respect 588 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: for other rich people, and that in the past he 589 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: may have thought that crypto was not real money and 590 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: that these people were not really rich, But then once 591 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: he saw that they had lots of real money in 592 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: addition to cryptocurrency, he was like, all right, they seem 593 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: like my kind of guys. Maybe we should hang out, 594 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: Like if they're buying memberships at mar A Lago, but 595 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: they're donating to his campaign. 596 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 4: I also feel like there's something about Justin Sun that's 597 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 4: kind of trumpy, Like he's totally this like self created 598 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 4: who's like using like all of these tools to sort 599 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 4: of create an image, like you brought up the Hans 600 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 4: Zimmer theme song for his company, which is funny, like, 601 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 4: like what company needs a Han Zimmer theme song? I 602 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 4: almost want to hear it kind of coming up in 603 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 4: the background as we're discussing it. 604 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: Have you heard the theme song? 605 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: I definitely have, but don't I cannot describe it properly. 606 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 4: And then you know he bought this, this piece of art, 607 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 4: the banana that had been duct taped to the wall, 608 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 4: you brought the buffet lunch. 609 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: He basically like, if there's any way. 610 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 4: To signal status or to use money to signal status, 611 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 4: just the Sun is gone for it. 612 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 613 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: I mean, actually it's kind of funny because like Trump, 614 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: he's willing to sell any sort of like status symbol 615 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: that you want as long as it's like a Trump 616 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: status symbol. Like he's like, pay me money and you 617 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: can live in a Trump apartment, or you can wear 618 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: a Trump watch or whatever. And Sun is like the 619 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: perfect customer because he loves to spend lots of money 620 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: on things that might make him look rich or important. 621 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: He got a Trump watch. In fact, he. 622 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: Got a Trump watch. He actually played a really key 623 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: role in Trump, the Trump's getting into the crypto business. 624 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: So Trump gave the speech he said, you know, I 625 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: love crypto. I'm gonna deregulate the industry. It's going to 626 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: be great. Everyone liked that. And then a few weeks 627 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: later Trump said, and I'm going to get into the 628 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: crypto business myself. I've got this company called World Liberty 629 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: and the crypto industry. A lot of people were like, 630 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: oh man, this is like you're in it for the 631 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: wrong reason, right. We thought you just like want to 632 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: to decentralize things. We didn't think you were trying to 633 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: make money off of us. And so the sales of 634 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: Trump's first cryptocurrency were really slow. It was looking like 635 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: the project might not get off the ground. They'd set 636 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: out to sell like hundreds of millions of dollars with 637 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: these tokens and they only sold a couple of million. 638 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: And Son stepped in and bought initially thirty million dollars 639 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: in one go, and this like got a lot of 640 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: momentum for the Trump project. Sun got named and advisor 641 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: to World Liberty, and it kind of put them right 642 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: in the in the Trump's orbit. 643 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 4: And Son, in addition to this money that went into 644 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 4: World Liberty. He also bought one of the Trump Meme coins. 645 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 4: That's another payment that effectively goes to companies controlled by 646 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 4: the Trump family. I feel like I have to ask 647 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 4: the question that like everybody is thinking, but maybe everyone 648 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 4: is afraid to ask, which is first of all, Justin 649 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 4: Sun's born in China, he is not allowed to make 650 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 4: political contributions to political candidates. You're also not, I don't think, 651 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 4: allowed to just say, hey, I'm going to write a 652 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 4: seventy five million dollar check to help with an SEC problem. 653 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 2: How is this not improper? 654 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 4: I mean he's making a payment to Trump's or many 655 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 4: payments to Trump's family, and also getting a bunch of 656 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 4: policy considerations. 657 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 5: Yeah. 658 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: I think Trump has made it very clear that he 659 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: sees nothing wrong with accepting payments with his family, accepting 660 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: payments from people who have business before his administration. And 661 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: for this to be illegal, you'd have to prove that 662 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: favors had been done in exchange for these payments. I mean, 663 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: absence that proof, they can just say, hey, you know, 664 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: Son really wanted to buy these coins. He thought they 665 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: were investments. And then Trump has you know, said I 666 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: want to deregulate crypto because I see it as the 667 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: future of money. And this case against Sun was just 668 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: one of many lawsuits the SEC had filed. I'm instructing 669 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: them to toss all of them. So it's not hard 670 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: to find examples where there's a conflict of interest. But 671 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: so far, I haven't seen anyone who's nailed down something 672 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 1: where they've proven that like a particular action was taken 673 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: because of a particular payment, which is like the current 674 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: standard for what constitutes corruption. 675 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 4: Well, and like you said, Trump just blends his personal 676 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 4: identity and his political identity. It's all kind of tied 677 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 4: up together. And I feel like this story and this 678 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 4: guy is just like one example maybe the best example 679 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 4: of what of how Trump is changing, you know, the presidency. 680 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: There's something that Trump said, and this was about the 681 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: four hundred million dollar jet that his administration was accepting 682 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: from the government of Cutter that I think illustrates his attitude. 683 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: And he said I could say no, no, no no, 684 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: or I could say thank you very much. 685 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 4: And okay, zeke to finish up here. We said at 686 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 4: the beginning that tron is decentralized. But in August, the 687 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 4: Bloomberg Billionaires Index published an accounting of Justinsun's assets. That accounting, 688 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 4: and I'm pulling this from your story, was based on 689 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 4: material that had been provided to Bloomberg by Justin. Sun 690 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 4: had all a bunch of his assets, including his art 691 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 4: collection which I believe was worth fifty five million, his 692 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 4: plane and airbus two hundred million, and then this crypto wallet, 693 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 4: and using this crypto wallet, Bloomberg calculated that Sun had 694 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 4: sixty billion Tron tokits, which is a majority of the supply. 695 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 2: And he's suing Bloomberg over this. 696 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: Yes, So after Bloomberg Billionaires published this valuation, Sun sued 697 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:21,959 Speaker 1: in federal court in Delaware, and he claimed that this 698 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 1: report included details that he'd been promised wouldn't be in there, 699 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: something Bloomberg has denied. And he said that listing his 700 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: crypto holdings put him at risk of hacking or kidnapping. 701 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: And he also said that the list of holdings that 702 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: he provided to Bloomberg mistakenly included wallets that did not 703 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: belong to him, and that he does not in fact 704 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: own a majority of Tron's tokens. But when Bloomberg went 705 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: to ask him, which of these holdings are not actually yours? 706 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: To get a little more detail on what he was saying. 707 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: They did not respond. We've published our story. The lawsuit 708 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: is still pending. 709 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: Zeke Fox, thanks for being here. 710 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: Thanks Max. 711 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 4: All Right, Stacy, the underrated part of the show. You're 712 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 4: gonna love this story. I feel right, this is gonna 713 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 4: be an economic indicator that. 714 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 2: Is meaningful to you. 715 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 4: Okay, shoot, Okay, I'm joking because I know you hate it. 716 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 4: But this is a story in Bustle. The headline is 717 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 4: even the sugar daddies are feeling the squeeze, and it 718 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 4: is about how the economic forces that we have been 719 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 4: talking about on the show, the Vibe Session, are impacting 720 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 4: this sector of the economy, the sugar daddy sector of 721 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 4: the economy, essentially where wealthy men are essentially women to 722 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 4: be their girlfriends. These men are feeling less wealthy, these 723 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 4: sugar daddies, and they are cutting back and there the 724 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 4: article suggests that people in this world have a new 725 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 4: term to describe them, splendid daddies, because they're so cheap, 726 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 4: Because I splend it as kind of a crappier. 727 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 2: Version of sugar. 728 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 4: And so basically this is the Vibe Session but playing 729 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 4: out in the world of sex work. 730 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 3: Right, Okay, well, I obviously care about these issues a lot. 731 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 3: I wrote a book about women in the workplace, Machiavelli 732 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 3: for Women, And what this makes me think of immediately is, 733 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: you know, for most of history, like women's economic opportunities 734 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 3: was this attaching themselves in whatever way they could to 735 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 3: a man because that was the only way to earn 736 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 3: money or one of the only ways to earn money. 737 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 3: I find it a little distressing that that still exists, 738 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 3: but we still have, you know, like a gender pay 739 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 3: gap is still a really serious thing. So I just 740 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 3: see when I hear these stories, I just feel like 741 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 3: the economic limitations of women in the economy have not 742 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 3: gone like I It makes me sad. I just feel 743 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 3: like Bustle should do better because it's supposed to be 744 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 3: a feminist publication and women are having a hard enough 745 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 3: time in this economy right now. Women the participation in 746 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 3: the workforce has gone backwards recently for the first time 747 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 3: in a long time, because childcare expenses have gotten so high, 748 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,280 Speaker 3: and women's earning potential is lower than often their male 749 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 3: partners or whatever husbands, And so if there's if it's 750 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 3: a couple, often it's more economically feasible for the man 751 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 3: to work and the women to stay home. These are 752 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 3: all the things going through my head right now when 753 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 3: I hear about sugar daddies. I just feel like it's 754 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 3: a very old profession finding a rich boyfriend. But I 755 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 3: just feel like, of all the messions, it is the hardest. 756 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 4: You're saying, like, of all the economic stories, the fact 757 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 4: that these guys are like cutting back on their spending, 758 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 4: we shouldn't be talking about it, like we should be 759 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 4: talking about something else other than the tough times and sugaring. 760 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 2: Well. 761 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 3: I just think it's alarming that this is still a 762 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 3: career path for women. I'm surprised and saddened that Bustle 763 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 3: would cover this. 764 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 4: So yeah, Stacy, And when we talked about this offline, 765 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 4: it was even more Stacy is sort of is being 766 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 4: gentle right now that she had some. 767 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 3: I've had some time to digest it. 768 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 4: So but one thing I wanted to say about this 769 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 4: story is that the story is sort of premised on 770 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 4: the idea that this is like the vibe session. So 771 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 4: you have these guys who are like I think the 772 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 4: lead anecdote is like a tennis coach. He's not able, 773 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 4: he doesn't have as many clients right, people are cutting 774 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 4: back on their tennis lessons. Therefore he's cutting back on 775 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 4: his expenses and essentially sending his girlfriends less money and 776 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 4: and so like. 777 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 2: That is one possible explanation. 778 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 4: The other possible explanation that the story suggests, and that 779 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,720 Speaker 4: some of the women who are in this world put forward, 780 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 4: is that these guys are just cheap, and that it's 781 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 4: not that the economy is bad, it's that, like dating websites, 782 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 4: it's that there's like a market problem. 783 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 3: I would find it funnier if I felt like the 784 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 3: steaks were lower. I just feel like the stakes are high, 785 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 3: you know, like a lot of women are single parents, 786 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 3: a lot of households count on women, women live a 787 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 3: long time. I just want to see women able to 788 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 3: thrive in this economy. But I don't know that I 789 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 3: do better, do better, report on something else. The show 790 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,760 Speaker 3: is produced by Stacy Wong. Magnus Henrickson is our supervising producer, 791 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 3: and Amy Kean is our executive producer. Kelly garat Handle's Engineering, 792 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 3: and Dave Purcell factchecks. Sage Bauman heads Bloomberg Podcasts Special 793 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 3: thanks to Jeff Muskus, Julia Rubin, and Maria ling. If 794 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 3: you have a minute, please rate and review the show. 795 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 3: It means a lot to us. And if you have 796 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 3: a story that should be our business, please send us 797 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 3: an email. Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. That is, everybody's 798 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 3: with an us at Bloomberg dot net. We love to 799 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 3: hear from you. Thank you for listening, and see your 800 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 3: next time. 801 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 2: Ye send us stories you hate too, We'll we'll walk 802 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 2: about those. 803 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 3: We're fine. 804 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 2: We're good with that. 805 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 3: We want to hear stories you hate. I control max 806 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 3: with them. Next time, we want us to talk about 807 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,240 Speaker 3: sugar daddies.