WEBVTT - Paul Solet: Chowchilla 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.199 This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.520 The kids heard dirt and quarry rock be pushed over them, 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:20.480 and they realized that they were being very alive. 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.600 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.400 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.280 podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.280 research for my many audio and book projects has taken 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.600 me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:50.360 with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:54.800 and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.560 crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.560 good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:07.639 unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen seventy six, twenty 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.920 six kids were riding on a school bus in Chowchilla, California, 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.080 when they were kidnapped along with their driver by three men. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.280 The men buried them all underground in the middle of nowhere. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.000 The kids were terrified as they struggled to stay alive, 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.840 and then a fourteen year old boy took control. It's 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.520 an incredible story of survival. Paul Solid tells me about 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:32.400 the story at the center of his film Chowchilla. So 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.360 this is I think a hell of a film. I really. 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.560 I was impressed with the way you put it together 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.760 and what a harrowing story. I was two when this happened, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.360 so I don't remember I remember hearing about it. Tell 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.880 me how this film came to you, because you don't 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.800 look older than I am. I'm probably older than you are, 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:53.320 So how did you get this film? 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.680 I come from scripton films, actually, and a long time ago. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.160 I was just doing research when I came upon. I 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.440 was probably looking for, you know, the craziest crimes blah 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.920 blah blah, and I came upon the Chuchulli kidnapping, and 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.079 I was just I was first of all shocked, I 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.600 think that I hadn't heard of it before, and then 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:15.320 I realized there were a lot of questions that I 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.799 had reading about it that that hadn't been the answer. 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:19.400 I wanted to know what happened for the kids, and 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.960 I wanted to know more specifics on how it resolved 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.320 on the day, because I mean, the crime itself is 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:29.680 completely crazy, but also its resolution is really just, you know, 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.000 if you wrote it, you know, as a scripted film, 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.359 you'd say, give me a break, this is no way. 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:36.720 I can't I can't believe that I happened. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.359 And you know, importantly, to a documentary like the one 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.480 you made, you had great archive to work with. You 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.519 had the original debriefing of the kids, you know, right 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.359 then in seventy six, you had interviews with a lot 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.720 of them when they were adults. You had present day 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.560 news footage. So it sounded like you had a lot 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.720 to work with. Was there something missing that you would 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:57.240 have wanted? 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.880 You know, I feel like we got kind of everything 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.960 that there is. The DA's office worked really closely with 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.040 us and provided us basically every piece of evidence that existed, 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.600 so we had the full archive, you know, from Anivesca's 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.160 story standpoint, and then we also had you know, I 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:16.320 became really you make one of these things, you really 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.520 become close with the subjects. You know, they've become your friends. 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.160 And I don't know, I don't know how to make 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.600 one of these things without doing that. Their stories are 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:28.519 so powerful and they've been through so much, and you're 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:30.720 sort of in awe of them before you've ever met them, 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.560 and so you know they they worked very hard to 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.360 sort of provide every single piece of personal archival that 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.560 they could. You know, a lot of that stuff I've 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.040 never been seen before, you know. And so part of 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.760 that was original audio recordings, you know, one of which 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:47.600 was recorded days after the event. 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:52.040 It's pretty incredible and it's amazing to hear sort of 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.280 one of your heroes, who is Mike Marshall as a 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.320 kid and then as an adult and what happens. And 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.240 I think that's what's powerful about the film is you know, 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.080 you walk away and there's literally someone of high authority 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.560 in California years later who says, well, nobody was physically hurt, 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.840 you know, And then you do a wonderful job of 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:17.560 just unfurling all of the emotional trauma and physical heart 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.360 that people really go through with these sorts of things 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:24.039 in childhood trauma and showing the impact. So I think 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.920 that this treatment of this story could have gone very 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.640 differently in somebody else's hands. And I think you did 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.960 a wonderful job of being empathetic and you know, really 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:35.760 paying attention to the survivors. 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.279 Yeah, I'm glad that I'm glad that's your sense of it. 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.400 I mean, I think it is it was a huge 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.800 story at the time, massive the world was watching. So 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.120 it's not that it was underreported. It was reported tremendously. 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.680 And you know, the issue is that what was reported 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.880 was sort of the intrigue in the event itself, and 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.560 then that narrative that became the official narrative sort of 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:01.360 just ends when everybody comes home. Okay, yeah, and it's 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.440 that's like really not. That's where a lot of those kids' 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:08.040 stories began. You know. It was like and at the time, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.640 our understanding of trauma was a very very different. You know, 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.200 those kids were told, those kids' parents were told to 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.160 ignore their nightmares. You know, that's just to not address 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:18.760 any of the issues they were having and that it 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.120 would go away, you know, and that is not our 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.640 understanding of trauma. Now. In fact, this case shaped, you know, 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:26.960 the way we understand Cheraldo trauma a lot. You know 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.800 Leonora Terror's book and you know started she interviewed all 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.160 the victims, you know, in the in the months after 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.520 the kidnapping, and then kept in touch with them a 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.520 lot of them for years after. In particular, mic I 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.080 think that work was really important and is still relevant. 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.160 Now, well, let's get going on the story. We are 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:51.479 in July of nineteen seventy six in Chowchilla, California, which, 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.160 to be honest, I mean, I have heard about the bus, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.840 chaw Schilla, the bus, the kidnapping, very vaguely. I didn't 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.159 know very much about this story. I did not know 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.600 there was a Chouchilla, California, So you know, this was 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.839 not even the right state when I started watching this 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.680 film in my mind, will you tell me a little 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.000 bit about the political environment we're in the United States, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.440 and certainly what Chouchila was like in the seventies. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.000 When you look at Chowchila in nineteen seventy six, you 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:22.039 know you're seeing a very particular slice in America. You know, 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.160 it's a small town. It's a small farm town in 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.760 California Central Valley. It's flat, very flat, dusty, surrounded by 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:33.800 orchards and dairies. And you know, even though it's the 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.680 mid seventies and your post Watergate and your post Vietnam, 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.159 it's sort of a time capsule of a place. You know, 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.400 the rhythms of life out there are still closer to 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.520 kind of an earlier era. A lot of the families 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:49.559 there are descendants of dustbel migration. So culturally it's funny. 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.279 You know, you go to Central Valley in California, and 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.120 California is a big place, and so you're so people 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.480 are sort of surprising when they sort of hear echoes 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.080 of like there's sort of like a you know, an 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.200 Oklahoma and even down to the accent, you know, culturally 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:06.320 religious religious views. There are a lot of churches, and 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.560 so it really is it's like you feel that you 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.360 know that these are people who left places like Oklahoma 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.640 and Texas and Missouri during depression and there really is 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.800 a bedrock of sort of self reliance and church centered 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.400 community that it really does feel like you know that 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:24.560 it does. You can feel that it goes back to 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.600 that era. As far as what's happening, you know, in 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.000 the seventies, I mean a lot, you know, a lot 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.280 is happening. Economically. The country is in you know, a 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.080 really bad place, all the oil shocks and stackflation and 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.600 all that stuff. California is going through all kinds of 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.320 stuff with agriculture, water issues, you know, all kinds of 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.120 changing labor conditions. But Churchill as a town, it really 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.240 is a sort of little time capsule. You know, kids 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.760 are they're growing up like kids used to grow up. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.200 They're riding their bikes, you know, they're catching frogs. You know, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.040 it's sort of idyllic in a way. You know, nobody 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.640 locked their doors, you know, it really was. It was 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.440 a very hard working town. Everybody worked their asses off 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:03.640 and that they still do. It was not a place 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.280 where you would have expected this to happen. And it 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.600 was also it's a working class place. You know, it's 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.720 not a place that you would expect a ransom quim 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:12.720 to happen because these people don't have any money. 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:17.040 There were people who had money in Chowchilla, but even 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.280 what they were making money off it wasn't finance. It 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.760 was you know, working class companies, right, I mean, what 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.200 were Give me some examples of some of the wealthier 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.520 folks in that area how they got their wealth. 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.240 Chechell is really not a wealthy place. People are farmers, 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.319 you know, people are working farms. You know, that's really 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.360 what's going on. They're working farms, and they're you know, 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.320 they work in a restaurant, they work in a bar. 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.360 It's not a place that has wealthy inhabitants. 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.199 Let's see on that day, I mean, set us up, 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.040 how does this whole thing start to begin with. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.160 So one July day in nineteen seventy six, in this 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:54.120 little idyllic central valley town, hard working town. Everyone is working, 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.280 you know, so the kids need something to do during 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.920 the day. So there's a summer program and it's like 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.120 camp the kids life. They love to go there. It's 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.760 mostly mostly kids under the age of ten, and there's 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.720 bus takes them to school, takes them from the school 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.400 to the local pool, takes them back to the school, 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.319 then takes them home. And so this is their last 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.480 day of the summer program for the summer. They were 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.400 sad that it was ending, and they had even come 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:23.720 up with a petition to extend it. It was sort 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:25.679 of you know, of course wasn't going to work, but 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.160 it was a sweet sort of you know, endeavor that 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.720 these kids had put together. And so on the way home, 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.199 they were taking the bus a guy named Ed Ray 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.600 who was a longtime school employee and bus driver there. 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.760 Everyone knew him. He was, you know, a strapping you know, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.720 I think mid fifties at the time, farmer, tough they 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.240 kind of got, you know, like a big tough farmer, 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.480 you know, bucks his own hay, but also and the 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.080 kids loved him. He was could be stern, but you 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.520 know he really was just, you know, adored. He was 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.880 driving these kids home and he dropped one of them off. 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:06.200 And shortly thereafter, almost immediately thereafter, amidst these orchards, these 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:10.400 sort of flat orchards where they're growing almond trees, they 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.400 saw a white van in the middle of the street. 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:15.960 And you know, in a place like Chowchilla, if you 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.160 see a van, you know, a car stop, you assume 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.280 they're in trouble, and you do what people in small 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.600 towns do, They try to help. So ed Ray stopped 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:29.520 the bus and immediately a man came running out of 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.800 the orchard with a sawn off shotgun and a pistol 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.000 and said open the door. He had a mask, he 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.000 couldn't see his face, wearing the stocking over his face. 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:45.319 And then two other men similarly dressed jumpsuits, stockings over 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.240 their faces, also carrying a shotgun, one with a pistol. 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.480 Two So these two more men, they ed, what could 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.880 he do. He opened the bus doors. They came on 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.480 the bus, they pointed a gun at the kids. They 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.480 set everybody to the back of the bus. They told 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.120 ad to get to the back of the bus and 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.960 they took the bus. And so they follow this white 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.560 van up the road and they drive then the van 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.880 and the bus both down a little incline into what 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.199 they call a slough. Now, if you're not from Chuchilla, 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.319 you know, or a similar place, most people don't know 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:20.480 what the hell of slou is, as slugh is like 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.760 a sort of a high reeded area and this is 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.560 you know, the sort of like a tall like sort 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:27.920 of bamboo like, you know, an area that and this, 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:29.880 you know, The point was it couldn't be seen from 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.000 the road. And so they come into a little clearing 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:37.199 in this slough and they order the kids to at 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.240 gunpoint to get off the bus and to step directly 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:45.160 onto the white van. Half the kids, so the kids 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.400 on the right side got into the white van. And 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:49.520 now there are twenty six kids on this bus, most 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.280 of them under the age of ten. There was one 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.640 fourteen year old on the bus. His name is Mike Marshall. 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.640 He does not ride the bus home usually, and he's 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.560 only actually riding the bus that day because he is 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.800 he's gotten in trouble with his mom. And so she said, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:05.080 you know what, Mike, you're going to ride the bus 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.280 home with the other kids. He is. He is not 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.480 in the summer program for the same reason as the 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:13.480 other kids. Mike is in the summer program because he 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:15.600 and the principal do not get along. Mike is new 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.679 in town and right away he's gotten into it with 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.880 the principal and they just they both want to have 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:23.800 the it to see the end of each other. And 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.800 so Mike is in school to accelerate his junior high 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:28.360 experience and get the hell out of there. It's a 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.240 little tiny school, Dairyland Elementary, tiny tiny school and out 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.600 in the middle of these orchards, totally secluded. So they 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.360 offload these kids onto these two vans. These vans have 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:44.400 been modified. They have wood paneling that isolates the back 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.360 from the front, and you know, you can't open the 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.840 doors from inside. You can't see out. There are no windows, 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.640 there's no air circulating. By the way, it's July in 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.920 Central Valley, California, which is hot as hell, and they 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:57.720 slam the doors and these kids are in the dark 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.760 in the heat, and they start to drive. These kids 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.240 are in these vans for eleven hours. These are little kids. 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.640 In one van is the only adult ed ray along 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.920 with half the kids, and in the other van is Mike. 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:12.480 Mike Marshall, the fourteen year old, and he's with the 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.240 other half the kids. The kids are terrified, you know, 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.480 like as you know, any group of adults would be terrified, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.960 these are little kids. Driving for eleven hours. You know, 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.679 there's no way to use the bathroom, so these kids 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.720 are soiling themselves and it's horrible. You know. At one 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.160 point they stop for gas and they can smell the 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.640 gas and they you know, they bang on the on 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.000 the wall, but no one hears them. And you know, finally, 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.920 after eleven hours, they stop. The doors are opened and 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.440 one kid is dragged out, and then they're they're slam 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.800 shut and this happens again and again and again until 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.600 all the kids are dragged off. And what was happening 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.160 one at a time. The kidnappers were taking the kids out, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.679 and they had constructed some sort of a tent which 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:59.040 later was discovered to be a military surplus issue tent, 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:01.360 you know, and they have work lights glaring at them. 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:03.040 These kids don't know what the hell is going on. 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.080 They march them across this space. They take an item 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.079 of clothing from each of them and they take their 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.360 name down, you know, this is sort of proof of life, 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:16.040 clothing or possession. And then they mark them further across 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:20.200 the space to where a ladder is sticking out of 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.800 a hole in the ground, and one by one, at gunpoint, 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.080 they have these kids climb down the ladder. They don't 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:26.680 know where the other kids are, they don't know what 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:27.640 the hell is going. 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:32.560 On on the bus ride, you know. And when they're 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.359 getting the kids out, are these three men, the kidnappers 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.480 who have the pantyhose masks on? Do they say anything 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.160 at all? Are they reacting to each other or to 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:42.080 the kids or to ed. 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.280 Yeah, that's an important detail. So in the midst of 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.760 this kidnappening, you know, just to understand some kind of 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.800 have some sense of what's happening, you know, would have 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.440 made all the difference. And as you learn about trauma, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.720 like having some sense of what's happening to you is 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.280 like just absolutely critical thing. These guys did not tell 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.320 the kids anything. They didn't tell them what they were doing. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.120 They didn't say they were going to be okay, they 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.320 didn't say this is a you know, kidnapping for ransom. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.880 They just took them and you know, for little kids 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.480 looking at these men, they looked like monsters. I mean, 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.200 they really did, like their recollections of them were, you know, 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:16.880 and you can see that, you know how some of 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.520 the recollections in the film are affected by their upbringing. 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.360 You know, one of our subjects, guy Larry Park, you know, 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.360 his family very involved in the church. He's still very 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:25.920 involved in the church. And it's a little boy. His 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.360 frame of reference was demons, and these men looked like 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.320 demons to Larry. Their faces were blurred. They just Another 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.520 little girl who was very very little asked one of 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.320 them if if he was the Easter Bunny because he 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.040 had the end of the panteose hanging off of his 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.160 head of like years, So you know, it's really it's heartbreaking. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.160 So yeah, no, that's an important detail. They did not 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:48.000 tell them anything. 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:49.960 Did they talk to each other. Did the kids say 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.200 that that the were they communicating the kidnappers? No? Wow, 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.360 this was planned really well. So they're loading these kids 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.480 down underground, is that right, one at a time down 0:15:58.520 --> 0:15:59.080 this ladder. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.800 Yeah, So that the kids come down this ladder and 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.560 they emerge into a narrow chamber that's about twenty eight 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.200 feet long and about six feet high, six to eight 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.160 feet high. They don't know what it is. If the 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.920 walls are lined with like a thick gauge hog wire, 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.240 like a gritted makes it look a little bit like 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.240 a cage, like chicken wire, but thicker. The walls are 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:25.160 crimson painted, Crimson would be on that. There are no bathrooms. 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.400 The only bathrooms are holes cut in the floor. There 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.080 is hardly any food and water. There's some few jugs 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.440 of water, a couple five yallon jugs. There's a little 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.720 bit of there's like, you know, some cheerios, jar peanut butter, 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.800 some bread like it was not we're talking about twenty 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.360 six kids and an adult, right, So if they were 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.680 in a twenty eight foot one chamber, if they were 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.920 lying side by side, there is no room. So this 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.040 is a tiny little place. And then the kidnappers came 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.040 to the top. They shined a light down, They threw 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.680 down a flashlight and one set of extra batteries, and 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:03.200 then they slammed a very very heavy metal door. And 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.960 then after that the kids heard a sound, and the 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.520 sound was dirt and quarry rock being pushed over them, 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.120 and they realized that they were being buried alive. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.040 And this is six feet down, right? Is that how 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:17.159 long the ladder was? 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.840 Yeah, they're a little bit more than six feet down. 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.800 I mean the thing itself is you basically have like 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.479 six feet to the entrance to the chamber and then 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.320 you have an additional you know, eight feet down to 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.479 the floor of the chamber. So they are underground and 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:35.679 they're buried alive. 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.959 And they couldn't tell where they were. Were they in 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.160 the desert or the mountains or anything like that. 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.080 They had no idea And what is Ed? 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.360 I know that he does interviews later on, but do 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.880 we remember what Ed was sort of thinking or what 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.000 his thought precess was at this point. He's the only 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.960 adult with a fourteen year old basically as his sidekick, 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:56.560 and that's it. 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.560 So, you know, Ed Ray like, no one would end 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.320 be this guy this position. This is a terrible position. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.520 You know. He loves these kids and all these kids 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.040 are his charges. They're in his care and Ed is 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.080 more aware than any of the kids that this is 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.919 not likely to go well and it is weighing on 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:19.400 him tremendously, so he does his best to calm them down. 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:24.359 The kids work together with him to distribute some of 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.359 the rations make sure that people have a little bit 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.679 of food, a little bit of water. The older kids, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.399 especially the girls, very very helpful and taking care of 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.600 the younger ones and trying to calm everybody down ed. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:38.840 At a certain point, got everyone to take a nap. 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.199 But there's nothing they can do. You know, they have 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:43.960 one light in this chamber. It's a flashlight, and they're 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.159 trying to conserve the batteries. They don't they don't know 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.480 what's going on. They have no idea. Food is rapidly 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:56.880 going away. And the structure itself is very shody. So 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:00.640 there's already a support beam holding up the center of it, 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.240 as if when they were initially burying this thing it 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.760 started to cave in and they needed to reinforce it. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.000 So if someone bumps into that thing, who knows if 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.440 the roof is going to go. There is very little 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.639 air coming in. There are two little vents you're talking about, 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.080 like a dryer tube. Ultimately they found it. It was like 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.080 it just a little dryer tube that was pushing air 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.720 and it wasn't much. And so you know, this is 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.320 just a nightmare gone to another nightmare. 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.399 And this is July. Central California was there an estimate 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.640 on what the temperatures could get to where they were 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.000 six feet or more underground during this time. 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.959 So when you're underground, it's not as bad as it 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:45.399 was when they were in the vans. When they were 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.560 in the vans, it's likely that those vans are one 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.480 hundred and fifteen degrees inside, you know, maybe more because 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.639 there's no ventilation, you know, and you're talking about blistering 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.320 sun heating these vans for hours and hours and hours, 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.399 no air conditioning at all, no ventilation at all. So 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.600 those that van, those van rids, these kids were dehydrated, 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.280 they were you know, they had soiled their clothes, they 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.359 were horrified, and that's before they went in the chamber. 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:12.600 And a lot of that, I know you said before, 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.600 is a lack of information, the not knowing you're going 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.360 through something terrible now. But even if it's a false promise, 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.840 we'll come back, don't worry. Given that hope, that hope 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.680 is what's important. Do you think that the kidnappers thought 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:28.959 that through, like we're just not going to give them 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:33.680 any information, the intention is to terrify these kids, or 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.720