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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: The kids heard dirt and quarry rock be pushed over them,

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Speaker 2: and they realized that they were being very alive.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen seventy six, twenty

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Speaker 1: six kids were riding on a school bus in Chowchilla, California,

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Speaker 1: when they were kidnapped along with their driver by three men.

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Speaker 1: The men buried them all underground in the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: The kids were terrified as they struggled to stay alive,

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Speaker 1: and then a fourteen year old boy took control. It's

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Speaker 1: an incredible story of survival. Paul Solid tells me about

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Speaker 1: the story at the center of his film Chowchilla. So

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Speaker 1: this is I think a hell of a film. I really.

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Speaker 1: I was impressed with the way you put it together

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Speaker 1: and what a harrowing story. I was two when this happened,

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Speaker 1: so I don't remember I remember hearing about it. Tell

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Speaker 1: me how this film came to you, because you don't

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Speaker 1: look older than I am. I'm probably older than you are,

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Speaker 1: So how did you get this film?

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Speaker 2: I come from scripton films, actually, and a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: I was just doing research when I came upon. I

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Speaker 2: was probably looking for, you know, the craziest crimes blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah, and I came upon the Chuchulli kidnapping, and

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Speaker 2: I was just I was first of all shocked, I

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Speaker 2: think that I hadn't heard of it before, and then

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Speaker 2: I realized there were a lot of questions that I

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Speaker 2: had reading about it that that hadn't been the answer.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to know what happened for the kids, and

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Speaker 2: I wanted to know more specifics on how it resolved

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Speaker 2: on the day, because I mean, the crime itself is

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Speaker 2: completely crazy, but also its resolution is really just, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you wrote it, you know, as a scripted film,

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Speaker 2: you'd say, give me a break, this is no way.

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Speaker 2: I can't I can't believe that I happened.

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Speaker 1: And you know, importantly, to a documentary like the one

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Speaker 1: you made, you had great archive to work with. You

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Speaker 1: had the original debriefing of the kids, you know, right

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Speaker 1: then in seventy six, you had interviews with a lot

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Speaker 1: of them when they were adults. You had present day

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Speaker 1: news footage. So it sounded like you had a lot

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Speaker 1: to work with. Was there something missing that you would

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Speaker 1: have wanted?

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Speaker 2: You know, I feel like we got kind of everything

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Speaker 2: that there is. The DA's office worked really closely with

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Speaker 2: us and provided us basically every piece of evidence that existed,

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Speaker 2: so we had the full archive, you know, from Anivesca's

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Speaker 2: story standpoint, and then we also had you know, I

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Speaker 2: became really you make one of these things, you really

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Speaker 2: become close with the subjects. You know, they've become your friends.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, I don't know how to make

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Speaker 2: one of these things without doing that. Their stories are

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Speaker 2: so powerful and they've been through so much, and you're

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Speaker 2: sort of in awe of them before you've ever met them,

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Speaker 2: and so you know they they worked very hard to

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Speaker 2: sort of provide every single piece of personal archival that

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Speaker 2: they could. You know, a lot of that stuff I've

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Speaker 2: never been seen before, you know. And so part of

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Speaker 2: that was original audio recordings, you know, one of which

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Speaker 2: was recorded days after the event.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty incredible and it's amazing to hear sort of

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Speaker 1: one of your heroes, who is Mike Marshall as a

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Speaker 1: kid and then as an adult and what happens. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's what's powerful about the film is you know,

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Speaker 1: you walk away and there's literally someone of high authority

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Speaker 1: in California years later who says, well, nobody was physically hurt,

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Speaker 1: you know, And then you do a wonderful job of

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Speaker 1: just unfurling all of the emotional trauma and physical heart

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Speaker 1: that people really go through with these sorts of things

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Speaker 1: in childhood trauma and showing the impact. So I think

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Speaker 1: that this treatment of this story could have gone very

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Speaker 1: differently in somebody else's hands. And I think you did

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Speaker 1: a wonderful job of being empathetic and you know, really

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Speaker 1: paying attention to the survivors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad that I'm glad that's your sense of it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it is it was a huge

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Speaker 2: story at the time, massive the world was watching. So

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Speaker 2: it's not that it was underreported. It was reported tremendously.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the issue is that what was reported

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Speaker 2: was sort of the intrigue in the event itself, and

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Speaker 2: then that narrative that became the official narrative sort of

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Speaker 2: just ends when everybody comes home. Okay, yeah, and it's

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Speaker 2: that's like really not. That's where a lot of those kids'

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Speaker 2: stories began. You know. It was like and at the time,

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Speaker 2: our understanding of trauma was a very very different. You know,

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Speaker 2: those kids were told, those kids' parents were told to

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Speaker 2: ignore their nightmares. You know, that's just to not address

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Speaker 2: any of the issues they were having and that it

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Speaker 2: would go away, you know, and that is not our

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Speaker 2: understanding of trauma. Now. In fact, this case shaped, you know,

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Speaker 2: the way we understand Cheraldo trauma a lot. You know

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Speaker 2: Leonora Terror's book and you know started she interviewed all

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Speaker 2: the victims, you know, in the in the months after

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Speaker 2: the kidnapping, and then kept in touch with them a

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Speaker 2: lot of them for years after. In particular, mic I

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Speaker 2: think that work was really important and is still relevant.

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Speaker 1: Now, well, let's get going on the story. We are

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Speaker 1: in July of nineteen seventy six in Chowchilla, California, which,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, I mean, I have heard about the bus,

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Speaker 1: chaw Schilla, the bus, the kidnapping, very vaguely. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know very much about this story. I did not know

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Speaker 1: there was a Chouchilla, California, So you know, this was

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Speaker 1: not even the right state when I started watching this

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Speaker 1: film in my mind, will you tell me a little

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Speaker 1: bit about the political environment we're in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and certainly what Chouchila was like in the seventies.

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Speaker 2: When you look at Chowchila in nineteen seventy six, you

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Speaker 2: know you're seeing a very particular slice in America. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's a small town. It's a small farm town in

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Speaker 2: California Central Valley. It's flat, very flat, dusty, surrounded by

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Speaker 2: orchards and dairies. And you know, even though it's the

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Speaker 2: mid seventies and your post Watergate and your post Vietnam,

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Speaker 2: it's sort of a time capsule of a place. You know,

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Speaker 2: the rhythms of life out there are still closer to

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Speaker 2: kind of an earlier era. A lot of the families

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Speaker 2: there are descendants of dustbel migration. So culturally it's funny.

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Speaker 2: You know, you go to Central Valley in California, and

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Speaker 2: California is a big place, and so you're so people

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Speaker 2: are sort of surprising when they sort of hear echoes

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Speaker 2: of like there's sort of like a you know, an

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Speaker 2: Oklahoma and even down to the accent, you know, culturally

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Speaker 2: religious religious views. There are a lot of churches, and

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Speaker 2: so it really is it's like you feel that you

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Speaker 2: know that these are people who left places like Oklahoma

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Speaker 2: and Texas and Missouri during depression and there really is

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Speaker 2: a bedrock of sort of self reliance and church centered

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Speaker 2: community that it really does feel like you know that

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Speaker 2: it does. You can feel that it goes back to

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Speaker 2: that era. As far as what's happening, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the seventies, I mean a lot, you know, a lot

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Speaker 2: is happening. Economically. The country is in you know, a

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Speaker 2: really bad place, all the oil shocks and stackflation and

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Speaker 2: all that stuff. California is going through all kinds of

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Speaker 2: stuff with agriculture, water issues, you know, all kinds of

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Speaker 2: changing labor conditions. But Churchill as a town, it really

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Speaker 2: is a sort of little time capsule. You know, kids

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Speaker 2: are they're growing up like kids used to grow up.

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Speaker 2: They're riding their bikes, you know, they're catching frogs. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's sort of idyllic in a way. You know, nobody

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Speaker 2: locked their doors, you know, it really was. It was

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Speaker 2: a very hard working town. Everybody worked their asses off

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Speaker 2: and that they still do. It was not a place

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Speaker 2: where you would have expected this to happen. And it

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Speaker 2: was also it's a working class place. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: not a place that you would expect a ransom quim

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Speaker 2: to happen because these people don't have any money.

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Speaker 1: There were people who had money in Chowchilla, but even

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Speaker 1: what they were making money off it wasn't finance. It

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Speaker 1: was you know, working class companies, right, I mean, what

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Speaker 1: were Give me some examples of some of the wealthier

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Speaker 1: folks in that area how they got their wealth.

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Speaker 2: Chechell is really not a wealthy place. People are farmers,

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Speaker 2: you know, people are working farms. You know, that's really

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Speaker 2: what's going on. They're working farms, and they're you know,

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Speaker 2: they work in a restaurant, they work in a bar.

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Speaker 2: It's not a place that has wealthy inhabitants.

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Speaker 1: Let's see on that day, I mean, set us up,

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Speaker 1: how does this whole thing start to begin with.

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Speaker 2: So one July day in nineteen seventy six, in this

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Speaker 2: little idyllic central valley town, hard working town. Everyone is working,

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Speaker 2: you know, so the kids need something to do during

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Speaker 2: the day. So there's a summer program and it's like

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Speaker 2: camp the kids life. They love to go there. It's

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Speaker 2: mostly mostly kids under the age of ten, and there's

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Speaker 2: bus takes them to school, takes them from the school

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Speaker 2: to the local pool, takes them back to the school,

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Speaker 2: then takes them home. And so this is their last

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Speaker 2: day of the summer program for the summer. They were

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Speaker 2: sad that it was ending, and they had even come

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Speaker 2: up with a petition to extend it. It was sort

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Speaker 2: of you know, of course wasn't going to work, but

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Speaker 2: it was a sweet sort of you know, endeavor that

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Speaker 2: these kids had put together. And so on the way home,

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Speaker 2: they were taking the bus a guy named Ed Ray

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Speaker 2: who was a longtime school employee and bus driver there.

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Speaker 2: Everyone knew him. He was, you know, a strapping you know,

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Speaker 2: I think mid fifties at the time, farmer, tough they

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Speaker 2: kind of got, you know, like a big tough farmer,

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Speaker 2: you know, bucks his own hay, but also and the

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Speaker 2: kids loved him. He was could be stern, but you

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Speaker 2: know he really was just, you know, adored. He was

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Speaker 2: driving these kids home and he dropped one of them off.

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Speaker 2: And shortly thereafter, almost immediately thereafter, amidst these orchards, these

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Speaker 2: sort of flat orchards where they're growing almond trees, they

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Speaker 2: saw a white van in the middle of the street.

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Speaker 2: And you know, in a place like Chowchilla, if you

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Speaker 2: see a van, you know, a car stop, you assume

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Speaker 2: they're in trouble, and you do what people in small

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Speaker 2: towns do, They try to help. So ed Ray stopped

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Speaker 2: the bus and immediately a man came running out of

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Speaker 2: the orchard with a sawn off shotgun and a pistol

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Speaker 2: and said open the door. He had a mask, he

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Speaker 2: couldn't see his face, wearing the stocking over his face.

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Speaker 2: And then two other men similarly dressed jumpsuits, stockings over

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Speaker 2: their faces, also carrying a shotgun, one with a pistol.

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Speaker 2: Two So these two more men, they ed, what could

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Speaker 2: he do. He opened the bus doors. They came on

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Speaker 2: the bus, they pointed a gun at the kids. They

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Speaker 2: set everybody to the back of the bus. They told

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Speaker 2: ad to get to the back of the bus and

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Speaker 2: they took the bus. And so they follow this white

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Speaker 2: van up the road and they drive then the van

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Speaker 2: and the bus both down a little incline into what

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Speaker 2: they call a slough. Now, if you're not from Chuchilla,

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Speaker 2: you know, or a similar place, most people don't know

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Speaker 2: what the hell of slou is, as slugh is like

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Speaker 2: a sort of a high reeded area and this is

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Speaker 2: you know, the sort of like a tall like sort

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Speaker 2: of bamboo like, you know, an area that and this,

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Speaker 2: you know, The point was it couldn't be seen from

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Speaker 2: the road. And so they come into a little clearing

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Speaker 2: in this slough and they order the kids to at

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Speaker 2: gunpoint to get off the bus and to step directly

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Speaker 2: onto the white van. Half the kids, so the kids

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Speaker 2: on the right side got into the white van. And

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Speaker 2: now there are twenty six kids on this bus, most

224
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Speaker 2: of them under the age of ten. There was one

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old on the bus. His name is Mike Marshall.

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Speaker 2: He does not ride the bus home usually, and he's

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Speaker 2: only actually riding the bus that day because he is

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Speaker 2: he's gotten in trouble with his mom. And so she said,

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Speaker 2: you know what, Mike, you're going to ride the bus

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Speaker 2: home with the other kids. He is. He is not

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Speaker 2: in the summer program for the same reason as the

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Speaker 2: other kids. Mike is in the summer program because he

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Speaker 2: and the principal do not get along. Mike is new

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Speaker 2: in town and right away he's gotten into it with

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Speaker 2: the principal and they just they both want to have

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Speaker 2: the it to see the end of each other. And

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Speaker 2: so Mike is in school to accelerate his junior high

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Speaker 2: experience and get the hell out of there. It's a

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Speaker 2: little tiny school, Dairyland Elementary, tiny tiny school and out

240
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Speaker 2: in the middle of these orchards, totally secluded. So they

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Speaker 2: offload these kids onto these two vans. These vans have

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Speaker 2: been modified. They have wood paneling that isolates the back

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Speaker 2: from the front, and you know, you can't open the

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Speaker 2: doors from inside. You can't see out. There are no windows,

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Speaker 2: there's no air circulating. By the way, it's July in

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Speaker 2: Central Valley, California, which is hot as hell, and they

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Speaker 2: slam the doors and these kids are in the dark

248
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Speaker 2: in the heat, and they start to drive. These kids

249
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Speaker 2: are in these vans for eleven hours. These are little kids.

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Speaker 2: In one van is the only adult ed ray along

251
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Speaker 2: with half the kids, and in the other van is Mike.

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Speaker 2: Mike Marshall, the fourteen year old, and he's with the

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Speaker 2: other half the kids. The kids are terrified, you know,

254
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Speaker 2: like as you know, any group of adults would be terrified,

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Speaker 2: these are little kids. Driving for eleven hours. You know,

256
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Speaker 2: there's no way to use the bathroom, so these kids

257
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Speaker 2: are soiling themselves and it's horrible. You know. At one

258
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Speaker 2: point they stop for gas and they can smell the

259
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Speaker 2: gas and they you know, they bang on the on

260
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Speaker 2: the wall, but no one hears them. And you know, finally,

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Speaker 2: after eleven hours, they stop. The doors are opened and

262
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Speaker 2: one kid is dragged out, and then they're they're slam

263
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Speaker 2: shut and this happens again and again and again until

264
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Speaker 2: all the kids are dragged off. And what was happening

265
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Speaker 2: one at a time. The kidnappers were taking the kids out,

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Speaker 2: and they had constructed some sort of a tent which

267
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Speaker 2: later was discovered to be a military surplus issue tent,

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Speaker 2: you know, and they have work lights glaring at them.

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Speaker 2: These kids don't know what the hell is going on.

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Speaker 2: They march them across this space. They take an item

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Speaker 2: of clothing from each of them and they take their

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Speaker 2: name down, you know, this is sort of proof of life,

273
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,040
Speaker 2: clothing or possession. And then they mark them further across

274
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Speaker 2: the space to where a ladder is sticking out of

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Speaker 2: a hole in the ground, and one by one, at gunpoint,

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Speaker 2: they have these kids climb down the ladder. They don't

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Speaker 2: know where the other kids are, they don't know what

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Speaker 2: the hell is going.

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Speaker 1: On on the bus ride, you know. And when they're

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Speaker 1: getting the kids out, are these three men, the kidnappers

281
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Speaker 1: who have the pantyhose masks on? Do they say anything

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Speaker 1: at all? Are they reacting to each other or to

283
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Speaker 1: the kids or to ed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an important detail. So in the midst of

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Speaker 2: this kidnappening, you know, just to understand some kind of

286
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,800
Speaker 2: have some sense of what's happening, you know, would have

287
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 2: made all the difference. And as you learn about trauma,

288
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 2: like having some sense of what's happening to you is

289
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Speaker 2: like just absolutely critical thing. These guys did not tell

290
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Speaker 2: the kids anything. They didn't tell them what they were doing.

291
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Speaker 2: They didn't say they were going to be okay, they

292
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Speaker 2: didn't say this is a you know, kidnapping for ransom.

293
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Speaker 2: They just took them and you know, for little kids

294
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Speaker 2: looking at these men, they looked like monsters. I mean,

295
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Speaker 2: they really did, like their recollections of them were, you know,

296
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Speaker 2: and you can see that, you know how some of

297
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,520
Speaker 2: the recollections in the film are affected by their upbringing.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of our subjects, guy Larry Park, you know,

299
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Speaker 2: his family very involved in the church. He's still very

300
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Speaker 2: involved in the church. And it's a little boy. His

301
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Speaker 2: frame of reference was demons, and these men looked like

302
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 2: demons to Larry. Their faces were blurred. They just Another

303
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 2: little girl who was very very little asked one of

304
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Speaker 2: them if if he was the Easter Bunny because he

305
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Speaker 2: had the end of the panteose hanging off of his

306
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Speaker 2: head of like years, So you know, it's really it's heartbreaking.

307
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Speaker 2: So yeah, no, that's an important detail. They did not

308
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Speaker 2: tell them anything.

309
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Speaker 1: Did they talk to each other. Did the kids say

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Speaker 1: that that the were they communicating the kidnappers? No? Wow,

311
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Speaker 1: this was planned really well. So they're loading these kids

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Speaker 1: down underground, is that right, one at a time down

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Speaker 1: this ladder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So that the kids come down this ladder and

315
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Speaker 2: they emerge into a narrow chamber that's about twenty eight

316
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Speaker 2: feet long and about six feet high, six to eight

317
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 2: feet high. They don't know what it is. If the

318
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 2: walls are lined with like a thick gauge hog wire,

319
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Speaker 2: like a gritted makes it look a little bit like

320
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 2: a cage, like chicken wire, but thicker. The walls are

321
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Speaker 2: crimson painted, Crimson would be on that. There are no bathrooms.

322
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Speaker 2: The only bathrooms are holes cut in the floor. There

323
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Speaker 2: is hardly any food and water. There's some few jugs

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Speaker 2: of water, a couple five yallon jugs. There's a little

325
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Speaker 2: bit of there's like, you know, some cheerios, jar peanut butter,

326
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 2: some bread like it was not we're talking about twenty

327
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Speaker 2: six kids and an adult, right, So if they were

328
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Speaker 2: in a twenty eight foot one chamber, if they were

329
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,920
Speaker 2: lying side by side, there is no room. So this

330
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Speaker 2: is a tiny little place. And then the kidnappers came

331
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Speaker 2: to the top. They shined a light down, They threw

332
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Speaker 2: down a flashlight and one set of extra batteries, and

333
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Speaker 2: then they slammed a very very heavy metal door. And

334
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Speaker 2: then after that the kids heard a sound, and the

335
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,520
Speaker 2: sound was dirt and quarry rock being pushed over them,

336
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,120
Speaker 2: and they realized that they were being buried alive.

337
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Speaker 1: And this is six feet down, right? Is that how

338
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:17,159
Speaker 1: long the ladder was?

339
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're a little bit more than six feet down.

340
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Speaker 2: I mean the thing itself is you basically have like

341
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,479
Speaker 2: six feet to the entrance to the chamber and then

342
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 2: you have an additional you know, eight feet down to

343
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Speaker 2: the floor of the chamber. So they are underground and

344
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Speaker 2: they're buried alive.

345
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Speaker 1: And they couldn't tell where they were. Were they in

346
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Speaker 1: the desert or the mountains or anything like that.

347
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Speaker 2: They had no idea And what is Ed?

348
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Speaker 1: I know that he does interviews later on, but do

349
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Speaker 1: we remember what Ed was sort of thinking or what

350
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Speaker 1: his thought precess was at this point. He's the only

351
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,960
Speaker 1: adult with a fourteen year old basically as his sidekick,

352
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Speaker 1: and that's it.

353
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Speaker 2: So, you know, Ed Ray like, no one would end

354
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Speaker 2: be this guy this position. This is a terrible position.

355
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 2: You know. He loves these kids and all these kids

356
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 2: are his charges. They're in his care and Ed is

357
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 2: more aware than any of the kids that this is

358
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,919
Speaker 2: not likely to go well and it is weighing on

359
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,400
Speaker 2: him tremendously, so he does his best to calm them down.

360
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 2: The kids work together with him to distribute some of

361
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 2: the rations make sure that people have a little bit

362
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 2: of food, a little bit of water. The older kids,

363
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,399
Speaker 2: especially the girls, very very helpful and taking care of

364
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 2: the younger ones and trying to calm everybody down ed.

365
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 2: At a certain point, got everyone to take a nap.

366
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Speaker 2: But there's nothing they can do. You know, they have

367
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 2: one light in this chamber. It's a flashlight, and they're

368
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,159
Speaker 2: trying to conserve the batteries. They don't they don't know

369
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 2: what's going on. They have no idea. Food is rapidly

370
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 2: going away. And the structure itself is very shody. So

371
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,640
Speaker 2: there's already a support beam holding up the center of it,

372
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 2: as if when they were initially burying this thing it

373
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 2: started to cave in and they needed to reinforce it.

374
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 2: So if someone bumps into that thing, who knows if

375
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,440
Speaker 2: the roof is going to go. There is very little

376
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 2: air coming in. There are two little vents you're talking about,

377
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 2: like a dryer tube. Ultimately they found it. It was like

378
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 2: it just a little dryer tube that was pushing air

379
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,720
Speaker 2: and it wasn't much. And so you know, this is

380
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 2: just a nightmare gone to another nightmare.

381
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,399
Speaker 1: And this is July. Central California was there an estimate

382
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,640
Speaker 1: on what the temperatures could get to where they were

383
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 1: six feet or more underground during this time.

384
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,959
Speaker 2: So when you're underground, it's not as bad as it

385
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 2: was when they were in the vans. When they were

386
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 2: in the vans, it's likely that those vans are one

387
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 2: hundred and fifteen degrees inside, you know, maybe more because

388
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,639
Speaker 2: there's no ventilation, you know, and you're talking about blistering

389
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: sun heating these vans for hours and hours and hours,

390
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 2: no air conditioning at all, no ventilation at all. So

391
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 2: those that van, those van rids, these kids were dehydrated,

392
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 2: they were you know, they had soiled their clothes, they

393
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 2: were horrified, and that's before they went in the chamber.

394
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 1: And a lot of that, I know you said before,

395
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 1: is a lack of information, the not knowing you're going

396
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 1: through something terrible now. But even if it's a false promise,

397
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 1: we'll come back, don't worry. Given that hope, that hope

398
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 1: is what's important. Do you think that the kidnappers thought

399
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,959
Speaker 1: that through, like we're just not going to give them

400
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 1: any information, the intention is to terrify these kids, or

401
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 1: why wouldn't they give them any kind of false hope?

402
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 2: No, They certainly didn't consider that. I mean you just

403
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: look at the rations they left. Yeah, you look at

404
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 2: you know, what was down there for the kids, like

405
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,640
Speaker 2: there were some mattresses, old mattresses, and some box springs,

406
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 2: a couple of blankets. I think they were not thinking

407
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: about that, I mean their children, Yeah, little children like. No,

408
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,199
Speaker 2: there was no consideration given. So what would happen to

409
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 2: those kids? No, it wasn't part of the equation. It

410
00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 2: wasn't part of their concern at all.

411
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 1: Anybody have any health issues. I mean, I'm thinking of

412
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 1: ed first, if he's in his fifties, but any of

413
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: the other kids' asthma, anything that was particularly would make

414
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 1: them really susceptible to these conditions.

415
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: You know, they got lucky, you know that no one

416
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: had a terrible asthma attack, and definitely kids were having

417
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: trouble breathing. Some of the kids have held their pee

418
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 2: for so long that they ended up having terrible infections

419
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and that stuff was reported ultimately,

420
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 2: you know, in the escape attempt which is forthcoming. Ed

421
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 2: Ray ended up having some burns from battery acid, but

422
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 2: not terrible, and of course Mike Marshall ended up just

423
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:42,879
Speaker 2: entirely exhausted.

424
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 1: How many hours is it in this underground compartment before

425
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 1: there is a thought of how do we get out

426
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 1: of here? Is there a chance we could get out

427
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: of here?

428
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: So the initial thought, you know, is someone is going

429
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 2: to help us, and that is what Edray is telling them.

430
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: Someone's gonna come. They're looking for us, someone is gonna come.

431
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: He tries to maintain that hope, both for the kids

432
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 2: and for himself. But there's a certain point where the hope,

433
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 2: you know, starts to fade. They're running out of food,

434
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 2: they're running out of water. At a certain point, the

435
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: batteries that are connected to the air supply that's pushing

436
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: fresh air in they die, and so the air is

437
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 2: starting to go bad. Your kids, of course, are progressively

438
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 2: more exhausted and terrified, and you know, everyone needs to eat,

439
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 2: everyone needs to drink. And then, to make matters worse,

440
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 2: there's a point at which the ceiling starts to collapse,

441
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: you know, like suddenly, you know, they hear something buckle

442
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 2: and they think that the ceiling is catering in on them.

443
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 2: You know, there's sort of a cascade of dirt and rock,

444
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: and eventually it doesn't fully fall in it stabilizes, but

445
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: they're then in a position where they're like, it's only

446
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 2: a matter of time, you know, before this thing caves

447
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 2: in on our hands. And so at that point what

448
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: starts to happen is Mike Marshall, who's the older kid,

449
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: he's fourteen years old, who is the son of Bob Marshall.

450
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 2: Bob Marshall is a world champion steer wrestler, which is

451
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 2: like basically the baddest ass of all rodeo sports. I mean,

452
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 2: Bob is he's the world champion, and so you know,

453
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 2: that doesn't make him rich. That makes him a very

454
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 2: hard working rodeo guy. And his son, Mike, you know,

455
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: who is like an adolescent kid, is an aspiring rodeo kid,

456
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: you know, and he rides his ass off. It's all

457
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: he wants to do is be like his dad. And

458
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 2: so he has all the qualities of a kid who

459
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: grew up in the rodeo. He's tough, he's scrappy, he's

460
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: incredible hard, incredibly hard worker. He also has all of

461
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: the sort of spirit of a cowboy. He's been raised

462
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: as a cowboy, and that means a number of different things.

463
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: So it means he's brave as hell. It means he's

464
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: physically courageous. It means he is physically capable. But it

465
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: also means he has honor and that he respects his elders.

466
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: And so he has really spent this whole time, you know,

467
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: just following dad's lead. But there's a point at which

468
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: he starts to realize that if they don't do something,

469
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: they're gonna die, and ed ray, you know, God bless him.

470
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 2: He at a certain point quietly sort of falls apart

471
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: in the darkness and is quietly crying and praying and

472
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: doing all the things that a normal human being would

473
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: do in that situation. You know, the man is not

474
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 2: a coward, you know, he's a He's a tough, brave

475
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 2: guy in a terrible situation. It just so happens that

476
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 2: Mike again, Mike never wrote the bus like, he never

477
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: rode the bus along. He wrote it to school, he

478
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: never wrote it home. It just so happens he was

479
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 2: riding that day and he almost missed the bus. He

480
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: was he was actually in the in the back when

481
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: the buses were leaving, making out with the teacher's daughter,

482
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: and she encouraged him, like she was like, you're gonna

483
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 2: miss the bus and he and he sort of like,

484
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: you know, like red faced and blissful and said, oh okay,

485
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: and brand for the bus and the last guy on.

486
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: So he'd really like, if you believe in any sort

487
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: of you know, wow, if you believe in anything, divine intervention,

488
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 2: whatever you want to believe. Yeah, and Mike believes that

489
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: he was meant to be on that boss. And Mike says,

490
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 2: we have to do something. And the other kids, and

491
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 2: there are other kids that are saying that too. There's

492
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: some older kids. One kid, Jeff Brown, he was he

493
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: was ten, but he was he was he was bigger

494
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: for his age, and he was a you know, he

495
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: was another scrappy, intelligent young kid. They determined that they

496
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: needed to do something, whether whether you know Ed would

497
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: help or not. And Ed had tried the hatch earlier

498
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 2: and there was a lot of weight on it, so

499
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: Mike gave it another try. They stacked up some mattresses

500
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: so he could get a little bit more leverage, and

501
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: he pushed on this thing and pushed on this thing,

502
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: on this hatch, and indeed there was a lot of

503
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: weight on it. But at a certain point he's straining

504
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 2: as hard as he can. The kids that are watching,

505
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: and they're all gathered around cheering him on. The kids

506
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: say it moved, it moved, and so Mike makes another

507
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 2: appeal to Ad. He says, Ed, we've got to try this.

508
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: You know, it moved. The thing moved, and d reluctantly

509
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: agreed to help him. You know, remember Ed is a big,

510
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: strong adult farmer, and so he and Mike worked together

511
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: to try to lift this thing up. So Ed got

512
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: this thing up. It was incredibly heavy, this hatch. He

513
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: raised it enough for Mike to reach his hand up

514
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: and to feel around on top of it. He could

515
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: feel that there was weight on top of it, something

516
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: very very heavy up there. And they realized the only

517
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 2: way they were going to get this thing open is

518
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: if Mike reached his arm through and pulled off the

519
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: weight somehow. Now, if Ed had dropped this thing later,

520
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: when you do the math, what it was was there

521
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: were two tractor batteries, and tractor batteries aren't like car batteries,

522
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,479
Speaker 2: you know, they weighed like one hundred hundred pounds each,

523
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: hundred fifty pounds each. And then in addition to the hatch,

524
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: which was one hundred pounds, you know, you're talking about

525
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,719
Speaker 2: four hundred pounds of weight. So ed Ray is pushing

526
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: this this four underd panns up and Mike has this

527
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 2: little fourteen year old arm in there trying to get

528
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 2: these things off. And they both knew full well that

529
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 2: if ed dropped the thing, Mike would lose his arm. Yeah,

530
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: but they managed to get this thing out. They managed

531
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: to get the these batteries off. They dropped down and oh,

532
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: my god, you know, maybe this is it. But when

533
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 2: they looked up there, they realized that the ladder. They

534
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: had pulled up the ladder when the kidnappers left, but

535
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: they they realized when they looked up there, the surface

536
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: was further blocked. They had constructed the kidnappers constructed a

537
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: like a four x four foot wooden box that went

538
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: over the hatch and so. And at that point whatever

539
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: hope he had, I think was gone. He sort of

540
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: retreated into the shadows again, but Mike worked with the

541
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: rest of the kids, got up there. They broke a

542
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 2: box spring. Mike got a piece of up box spring,

543
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 2: crawled up into the box and started to dig and

544
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: to smash at the box. They couldn't smash it. It

545
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: was plywood. If you've ever worked with plywood, it's pretty

546
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: strong stuff.

547
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: It is.

548
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: Mike was smashing and smashing and trying to, you know,

549
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: kick a hole in it. You know, at one point,

550
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: you know, another kid try to help him, and you know,

551
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: down below the other kids were holding lights and cheering

552
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: him on. And finally, what Mike realized was that there

553
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: was at the base of the hatch, the wall, at

554
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: the base of this box, where the box met the

555
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 2: top of the chamber, there was he could see a

556
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: line of dirt. And so he started to dig dirt

557
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: out of that line, out of that little tiny little crack,

558
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: and pull it into the box and push it down

559
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: the box into the rest of the chamber. And his

560
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: thinking was that if he could pull enough of it out,

561
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: maybe enough of that dirt would fall, he could create

562
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: a little hole on the side of the box and

563
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: eventually me get a little bit of a weight, a

564
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: little bit of weight off the top of this box.

565
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: And so he done and doug and dug. No one

566
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: knows how long he dug, but it was hours. It

567
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: was so long that he started to lose equilibrium. He

568
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: didn't know whether he was digging up or down. He

569
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 2: started to hallucinate. At one point he had a really

570
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: specific hallucination, you know, of a stairway and a hall

571
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: away and coming up into you know, these kidnappers chamber.

572
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: That didn't happen. You know. He was just completely exhausted.

573
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: But after many, many, many hours of digging, and at

574
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: one point Mike passed out and was revived by the

575
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: kids with some of the lasts of their water they

576
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: poured on him to help wake him up. They give

577
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: last some of the last their water, and you know,

578
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: with that same cowboy spirit, he went back up and

579
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: he kept digging again, and finally he managed to get

580
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: that weight off the roof, a little bit of weight

581
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: off the side of the roof of the box, and

582
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: break a piece of it, and then break another piece

583
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: and another piece. And as he broke these pieces off

584
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: the roof, sand would start to pour through quarry dirt,

585
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: quarry rocks, and and he broke a bigger piece and

586
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: a bigger piece, and finally this beam of light came through.

587
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: And in the film, one of our subjects, one of

588
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: the survivors, Larry, who was this little boy at the time,

589
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: described seeing that light, you know, and again his interpretation

590
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: was as a sort of a divine light, but there

591
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: was some trepidation.

592
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: Right, people are still thinking the kidnappers are up there.

593
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: There was one thing I'd love for you to describe.

594
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: You have a psychologist talking about the hallucinations and delusions

595
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: that especially with kids, can go through when they're deprived

596
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: of everything and they're frightened about I think it was

597
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: the girl who was one of them could clearly see

598
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: the kidnappers sleeping and sleeping bags on top of this chamber.

599
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: Can you talk just a little bit about that before

600
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: they're released and why they would be scared to get

601
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: out of that chamber to begin with?

602
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, any thanks for bringing that up. That's important

603
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,239
Speaker 2: stuff too. So you've got to remember, these kids are

604
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 2: down there for sixteen hours. You know, what are they

605
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 2: doing down there and in the dark, and what you

606
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: hear from them in their recollections are various copa mechanisms

607
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 2: that they're so. In the one case, one of our subjects, Larry,

608
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: who was five years old at the time, he was

609
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: sort of transporting himself to safer places. He was imagining

610
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: being camping with his family and those the two spaces

611
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: sort of merged for him in a way. That's like

612
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: almost sort of hallucinatory, you know, and he could almost

613
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: you know, smell you know, the campground, the fire burning,

614
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: and because that's that was Larry's happy, safe place with

615
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: his family. And you know, by the way, Larry's family

616
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: was also camping at the time. The rest of his

617
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: family was camping when this happened. Another little girl, who

618
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: was even younger than Larry, imagined that she could see

619
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: through what was the ceiling for her, you know, and

620
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: then sort of up through the floor and could see

621
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 2: kidnappers lying in what she imagined in her four year

622
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: old mind kidnappers hideout would look like, which is three

623
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: kidnappers weren't pajamas lying in bed with their guns, like

624
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: lying in three beds above them. This, of course wasn't true.

625
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: They appers were nowhere near there at the time. You know,

626
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: they had they had left. What the mind does, and

627
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: particularly the mind of a child does to try to

628
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: sort of make sense of this stuff. You don't really

629
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: understood any of that at the time. The part I

630
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: left out was this ed Ray was really concerned that

631
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: those kidnappers were still up there, and he had no

632
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: reason not to be, you know. That was the conservative

633
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: adult choice. They had guns. They pointed them at us,

634
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, they had They had made Ed Ray take

635
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: off his h his clothes, and they left him in

636
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: his box or shorts, you know, whether to humiliate him

637
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: or or what. You know. But Ed's concern was that

638
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: they weren't there and he didn't want them to get killed.

639
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: And everyone respected that and understood that, and Mike understood that.

640
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: But there was a point at which Mike knew, look,

641
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: we're gonna die. We have to do something. So that's

642
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: when Mike sort of began to step in and take

643
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: over in that regard. So but even when when they

644
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: had gotten through, there is still this trepidation, a renewed

645
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: trepidation about who's up there. Are they going to poke

646
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: their head up and get shot. There's no reason to

647
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: think that that's not going to happen, you know. They

648
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: just know they have no other choice. And so Mike,

649
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: when he gets this thing open, he pokes his head

650
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: up through this hole into what is at that point

651
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 2: fading daylight, but still much brighter than anything he'd seen

652
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: for a long time. So his eyes are adjusting and

653
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: they're no kidnappers. He sees no kidnappers. He sees, in fact,

654
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: nothing except dirt and you know, cory, sand and trees.

655
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: He doesn't know where the hell he is. And so

656
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: one by one Ed hands up the kids to Mike,

657
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: you know that they're all on the surface, and Ed,

658
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: you know, takes over once again and shepherds them through

659
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: this space to who knows where. They don't know where

660
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,479
Speaker 2: they are, they don't know where the kidnappers are. There.

661
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: They're being super quiet. Mike is actually is not in

662
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: the movie, but he can't put everything in the movie.

663
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: But Mike was actually laying back and trying to keep

664
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: an eye out and going from sort of scrub to scrub,

665
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: you know, in cover, to try it see if you

666
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: could see anybody. But what happened was they crested a

667
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: little hill and they saw a quarry, like an active

668
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: working quarry, and then they saw a worker like at

669
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: first they see this figure and they say, oh my god,

670
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: it's one of them, and then they realize it's a

671
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 2: quarry worker. And he says, the whole world has been

672
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: looking for you, because it's been everywhere. You know. What

673
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: we don't know is what's going above ground this whole time.

674
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: This is a total what sixteen hours. Is that right?

675
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 2: Well, you've got eleven hours in the vans and then

676
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: you've got sixteen underground. And so by this point, one

677
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: of the many things that kidnappers didn't consider was that

678
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 2: if you kidnap twenty six children, there will be a massive,

679
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: massive outrage and huge news story. And that's exactly what happened.

680
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: It was all over the wires. It was, you know,

681
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: chac Chila was flooded with press from everywhere. You know,

682
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: there's one story of a reporter getting out of a

683
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: cab from Los Angeles, you know, paying in canrash like

684
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: you know, that's a long cab ride, and you know,

685
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 2: it was covered, it was covered internationally. It was a massive,

686
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: massive story. And so on the kidnappers side, they went

687
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 2: to call on this ransom and they couldn't get through.

688
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: And you would have thought that they would have been

689
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: industrious enough to find another way to make a ransom request,

690
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: but they either were not or chose not to. And

691
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: you know, the kidnapping side is a whole nother story.

692
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the kids and Ed get to safety and I'm

693
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,439
Speaker 1: sure you know, the authorities debrief them and the first

694
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: questions are where besides are you okay, and how are you?

695
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: It's you know, how do we figure out who these

696
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: people are?

697
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 2: Right?

698
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: Who kidnapped you? Because they're out there.

699
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the striking things

700
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: is that these kids who were kidnapped, you know, their

701
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: bus was kidnapped or then loaded onto a bus and

702
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 2: driven to the only place nearby where they can question them,

703
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: and it's a jail. These kids are driven to a

704
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: jail and they are you know, everyone is very kind

705
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: to them. You know, these were you know, hardworking police

706
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: and detective and investigators and you know, you know they're

707
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: doing their jobs, but it's it's a sort of a

708
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: crazy irony. You know that they're loaded back onto a

709
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: bus and driven in this place, and you know, they're

710
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: clothes are soiled, and so they're given adult prison jumpsuits.

711
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 2: So there are these images in the film of these

712
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 2: little kids wearing these white prison jumpsuits that are rolled up,

713
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: you know, in their little legs and arms. It's like

714
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: it's just heartbreaking, but they were happy to be alive,

715
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: and I think the trauma that was to come, it

716
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: really was. They didn't they were really quite understood at

717
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: the time, and so they were questioned and then it

718
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: became about who did this. They were questioned by the

719
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: police and the FBI, and then they were put on

720
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: another bus and driven back to jud Chua, where they

721
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: were reunited with their parents. Wow, so there's a you know,

722
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 2: nationwide manhunt. They're trying to figure out who the hell

723
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: did this, and eventually they put the pieces together and

724
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: discover that the people who are responsible are not you know,

725
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: there were all kinds of theories about who this could

726
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: have been. You know, it's nineteen seventy six, right, so

727
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: you had skyjackings at the time, you had you know,

728
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: judges getting kidnapped. It was crazy. Nineteen seventy six was

729
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: a crazy time, and so a lot of motives respect

730
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: and people thought it might be the Moonies. There was

731
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 2: you know, really no one knew what the hell was

732
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: going on. Some people thought they just were abducted, like

733
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: by aliens. So it's really every every conceivable because they

734
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: really ditches of ash and so what was what they

735
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: discovered was the wasn't any set of mass or criminals.

736
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 2: It was three young men in their twenties, and they

737
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: were not the young man that anyone would have supposed

738
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: that they would be. They were in fact, wealthy kids

739
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: from the Portola Valley. It was a very nice area

740
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: of California, very nice. Two of them were brothers who

741
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: were the sons of a local doctor, and the other

742
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: one was a guy named Fred Woods. And Fred Woods

743
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 2: was from a family that was incredibly wealthy. They were

744
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: an old money family. They had one hundred and fifty

745
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: thousand acres of rancho. They basically built the San Francisco Railroad. Okay,

746
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: so that's it's like as old as old money can be.

747
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 2: And in fact, Fred had you know, many, many, many, many,

748
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 2: many tens of millions of dollar inheritance that he would

749
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: have gotten had he just waited. But he had a

750
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: strange relationship with his father about money, and he wanted

751
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: to do his own thing, and he was you know,

752
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: the film gets into all this stuff, you know, much

753
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 2: much more deeply. But I think these were not people

754
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: who needed the money. They were people who wanted the

755
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: money and who wanted an adventure. They wanted a caper,

756
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 2: they wanted to do something in the case of the

757
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: brothers that was sort of bold and adventurous and challenging,

758
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: which sort of that component of it is almost relatable.

759
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: But then you go but didn't you think about the

760
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: kids that we were going to get nap? Like, yeah,

761
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: that didn't occur to you in your you know, in

762
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: your adventure, in your venture narrative you concocted.

763
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: But you know, the way they constructed that chamber, which

764
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: was a ended up being a moving truck, is that right?

765
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? They eventually discovered that the chamber that had been

766
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: constructed was in fact built from the back of an

767
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: old style moving van.

768
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: Wow.

769
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: And like the toilets were in the wheel wells, they

770
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: drilled out the wheel wells.

771
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: To me, the way they constructed this and you know,

772
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: they've got the cage on top, and they've got these

773
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: truck batteries and they pulled up the ladder, it doesn't

774
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: seem to me like these three guys intended to come back.

775
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seemed like they were trying to

776
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: make this permanent and this is you know, they're going

777
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: to ask for a ransom. I don't know, it just

778
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: seemed odd like they weren't going to give provisions anymore.

779
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: What do you think they were thinking?

780
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I do think they were going to come back.

781
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: I think that there was you know, a ransom crime.

782
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: In fact, they had. It was just a sort of

783
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: half baked, insane, bizarrely complicated. You know. The film goes

784
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 2: into some details of what their intended plan was. That

785
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: you know, involved like a fully blacked out Cadillac, you know,

786
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: throwing dummies out of airplanes. Like it's a crazy, crazy,

787
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: wackadoo plan, and that didn't actually ultimately make a lick

788
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 2: of sense or have any chance of working. You know,

789
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: as complicated as it was, it was ultimately like relatively idiotic.

790
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: One of the sort of starting points for that plan

791
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: was one of them had read an article that said

792
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 2: that California had a five million dollar budgets or plus

793
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 2: that year. They had decided like, well, you know what

794
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: if we take a city vehicle like a school bus,

795
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: we can then leverage state of California.

796
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: You know.

797
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: It's just insane, yeah, and ridiculous, you know, like they're

798
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: like they're just gonna get a bag of five million

799
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: bucks and drop it somewhere. But w was the idea.

800
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 2: They claimed to have been intending to return with more provisions.

801
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 2: I don't think they thought it was gonna last quite

802
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 2: so long. The brothers were impressionable early twenties guys that

803
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 2: were I think largely under the influence of fred Woods,

804
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: who was I think in many ways the ringleader for

805
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: the operation, even though one of the brothers was really

806
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: more logistically inclined. But fred Woods. I think it's pretty

807
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 2: clear fred Wood's you know, as a sociopath, you know,

808
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: based on how he was over the years in prison.

809
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: I mean, the movie goes into it more, you know,

810
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: his behavior after the fact, but yeah, he really sort

811
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: of really eliminates any question about you know, his character.

812
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: And this where they buried these kids and ed was

813
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: on fred Woods's father's property. It was a quarry, right.

814
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, So ultimately what they discovered is that

815
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: the property that they have buried these kids in is

816
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 2: owned by fred Wood's father. He owns the quarry, among

817
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: you know, a whole lot of other things.

818
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 1: So we get enough to charge them, Police charge them,

819
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: and then they go on trial. Is there any doubt

820
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: that they're going to be convicted? And I have to

821
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: assume that the kid's families are all there waiting to

822
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: see what happens.

823
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a little bit slow, but this obviously

824
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: was a big case on big trial, and so it

825
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: moved relative quickly through court system and what their defense

826
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 2: was was that there was no bodily harm. Every kid

827
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: in there was severely traumatized, every single one of them.

828
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 2: Their lives were really really fucked up by what happened

829
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 2: to them. But the defense attorney made this argument, and

830
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: ultimately they ended up doing quite a bit of time,

831
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: but they did all eventually get parole. The last one,

832
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: Fred Woods, was in there a good deal longer other

833
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 2: than the brothers, and he is now free.

834
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: So you know, and there were some powerful people who

835
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: were advocating for these three guys thirty forty years later

836
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: to get out. But also I was surprised that there

837
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: was at least one of the survivors who thought they

838
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: should be out too. But I think the insinuation was

839
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: maybe that was a payoff or no.

840
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: There are allegations that seem at the very least very likely.

841
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 2: What we know is that one of the key investigators

842
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: on the case from almost years ago, a guy named

843
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 2: Dale four, was years later hired by Fred Woods, who remember,

844
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: has a tremendous amount of money. He eventually gets that

845
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: inheritance when he's in prison.

846
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: It's like one hundred million, right, Yeah, he.

847
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: Got a lot of money, and so you know, he

848
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 2: can kind of do what he wants with that money.

849
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 2: He hires Dale four, who was an investigator on the case,

850
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: so the kids remember fondly and Dale four allegedly started

851
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: to approach survivors to try to influence the way that

852
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: the parole hearings would go, and eventually Fred Woods has

853
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: a relationship with one of the survivors. You know, it

854
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: seems like their likely was money exchanged. It's all pretty

855
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 2: horrible and sortid, and I think pretty on brand for

856
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: a guy who would come up with this crime in

857
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: the first place.

858
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you do go into detail about Fred in

859
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: prison versus the other two brothers. You know that Fred

860
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: was very manipulative and use the system. And I have

861
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: not how was he able to access that money while

862
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: he was in prison? Is there not a law that

863
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: precludes that from happening.

864
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't speak to I can't speak to

865
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 2: the lawn. What I can tell you is, you know,

866
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: you can get a cell phone in prison pretty easily.

867
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, you know Fred had cell phones. Again and

868
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: again he had cell phones, and he was running businesses,

869
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 2: a lot of businesses. He was trying to you know,

870
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: he had a gold mine that he was getting going.

871
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: He was buying and selling a lot of cars. In fact,

872
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: at one point he bought back the kidnapping bands because

873
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: he thought they would be valuable. Yeah, it's just so dark.

874
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: So where are the three kidnappers now? Do we have

875
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: any idea? Did they just vanish?

876
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: They're free, living their lives. I don't think that the

877
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 2: survivors are scared that they're gonna that these guys are

878
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: going to get them again. But I do think that

879
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: many of them fell very strongly that they shouldn't and released.

880
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: That was that's my own impression. Those guys are pretty

881
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 2: old now, It wasn't my impression of the survivors actually

882
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: felt like they were going to get them. But I mean,

883
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 2: in particular Fred Woods, the way he behaved in prison,

884
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: Like you know, it's just just no indication of this

885
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 2: guy's character has changed at all.

886
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: Right, I guess if we endier on sort of the

887
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: long lasting ramifications of what happened with them. I remember

888
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: the story of the woman who said she lives in

889
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: a tornado ridden state and she has to you know,

890
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: they needed a tornado shelter, but they couldn't put an underground,

891
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: which is understandable because of everything she went through and

892
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: how difficult things like that are. And there was another

893
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: person who talked about being triggered by men just in

894
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: general in some ways. You know. So while they might

895
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: not be scared that, you know, these guys are going

896
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: to come after them, necessarily that specter's there and it

897
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: doesn't go away, and so there are all of these

898
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: you know, shades coming at them. So can you talk

899
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: a little bit about that.

900
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the point is not that

901
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: they're afraid that these guys are going to come after

902
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: and the point is that these guys never left them.

903
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: Everyone I talked to described in one way or another

904
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 2: sort of leaving part of themselves down there and spending

905
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 2: the rest of their lives fighting trying to find some

906
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 2: way to make it to get it back. And they

907
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: tried all different things, you know, all these different all

908
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: these kids went through all kinds of different shit. You know,

909
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: like there was a there was you know, a lot

910
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 2: of there was alcoholism, there was substance abuse. You know,

911
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 2: some people were committing crimes themselves. Mike Marshall tells very

912
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: candidly in the movie what he went through, and it's

913
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: a lot. Thank god, you know, some of them have

914
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: been able to build lives for themselves, you know, And

915
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the most one of the

916
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: most powerful things to me about about what happened is

917
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: that in a way, it's sort of simultaneously a story

918
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: about the fragility of the human spirit and how vulnerable

919
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: we are, especially as children. And then on the other hand,

920
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: there's still this sort of incredible resilience, you know, and

921
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: this this will to push forward, you know, to see

922
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: how the survivors of this thing, despite everything they've been through,

923
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: and it is a lot, have managed to make lives

924
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: for themselves, and also to understand that they are that

925
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: they really are still affected by the kid appen of

926
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 2: this day. That is just hugely powerful, you know, And

927
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: I think ultimately it's a story about how how precious

928
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: childhood is, you know, and how we should do everything

929
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 2: we possibly can to protect it.

930
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: You know.

931
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: When I came to this, it was a lot you know,

932
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: many years ago. When I first came to the story,

933
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: it drew me in from this sort of spectacle of

934
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 2: the true crime itself, and the deeper I got into

935
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 2: it and older I got, you know, I got married,

936
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: I had a kid, you know like and I made

937
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: this movie as a new father, you know, and so

938
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 2: it had a very different resonance, you know, for me

939
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: than it did when it started. The absurdity and craziness,

940
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 2: you know, of the crime itself, it's not lost on me,

941
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 2: you know. It's it's like out of a Coen Brothers movie.

942
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: It's nuts. It's just completely nuts, and so are the characters.

943
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: You can never understand it. But when you've done everything

944
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: you can to try to try to put yourself in

945
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: this position and to live in there with them and Toga,

946
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: I don't understand how they're living now, you know, you

947
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: realize that, you know, this movie is about a lot

948
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: more than just a crime.

949
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

950
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All About the

951
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

952
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: Don't Forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

953
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

954
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

955
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

956
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: is Alexis M. Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

957
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

958
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark,

959
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

960
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

961
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: tenfold more and if you know of a historical crime

962
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold

963
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: more Wicked, email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com.

964
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

965
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: Wicked Words