1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:01:10,156 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. In honor of small business month, I sat down with Ben Walter, the host of The Unshakeables podcast and the CEO of Chase for Business. Ben came to us for advice on how small business owners can improve their mental health and build resilience over the long run. And I wanted to hear in return the stories he's gathered over the years of small business owners who've had their own slight change of plans. I hope the takeaways from this conversation are helpful for anyone who's looking to cultivate a bit more resilience when it comes to the changes we all face at work. Ben and I started by talking about some of the unique challenges that small business owners face. 2 00:01:11,036 --> 00:01:13,196 Speaker 2: The most important thing to keep in mind is that 3 00:01:13,476 --> 00:01:15,836 Speaker 2: when you're a small business owner, you are the everything. 4 00:01:16,716 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 2: You are the custodian, you are the CEO, you are 5 00:01:20,236 --> 00:01:24,476 Speaker 2: the floor manager, you are the customer relations professional. If 6 00:01:24,516 --> 00:01:27,556 Speaker 2: there's a hat you can wear, you wear it. You know, 7 00:01:27,916 --> 00:01:29,596 Speaker 2: if you work for a big company and something comes 8 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:31,316 Speaker 2: up in your personal life, you can say, can someone 9 00:01:31,356 --> 00:01:33,476 Speaker 2: cover that for me? And in this case, there's often 10 00:01:33,476 --> 00:01:35,596 Speaker 2: no one to cover that for me, So that's one 11 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:38,996 Speaker 2: angle is just how broad your responsibilities are relative to 12 00:01:39,316 --> 00:01:42,716 Speaker 2: a bigger business. And then the second way is the 13 00:01:42,756 --> 00:01:47,076 Speaker 2: amount of accountability and responsibility you take for everything that 14 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:50,596 Speaker 2: happens in that business because it's yours. If you make 15 00:01:50,636 --> 00:01:53,356 Speaker 2: a bad decision in a small business and it goes poorly, 16 00:01:53,556 --> 00:01:56,796 Speaker 2: it can put that business out of business, and that's 17 00:01:56,796 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 2: a worry that you carry all the time. I can't 18 00:01:59,116 --> 00:02:02,356 Speaker 2: tell you how many small business owners I meet who 19 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:09,276 Speaker 2: who feel deeply personally responsible for their employees' livelihoods, and 20 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:14,996 Speaker 2: how fundamental that obligation is to their personality and their character. 21 00:02:15,196 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean that people like me who work 22 00:02:17,356 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 2: for big companies don't take their job seriously and don't 23 00:02:20,556 --> 00:02:23,036 Speaker 2: feel any level of stress or accountability in life. Of 24 00:02:23,076 --> 00:02:25,836 Speaker 2: course they do. But if you think about the CEO 25 00:02:26,196 --> 00:02:31,516 Speaker 2: of a public company, that CEO is responsible for a lot, 26 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 2: but with a whole bunch of infrastructure to go along 27 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 2: with it, and shareholders and governance and a lot of 28 00:02:36,836 --> 00:02:39,836 Speaker 2: that just doesn't exist in a small business. It all ends, 29 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:41,276 Speaker 2: starts and ends with you. 30 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:45,996 Speaker 1: Sure. Ben, you host a podcast called the Unshakeables where 31 00:02:46,036 --> 00:02:49,356 Speaker 1: you actually talk to small business owners about how they 32 00:02:49,356 --> 00:02:52,756 Speaker 1: have navigated some of the most difficult moments they faced 33 00:02:52,956 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 1: when it came to building their businesses. Can you think 34 00:02:55,756 --> 00:03:00,476 Speaker 1: of an example of someone who found a way through 35 00:03:00,516 --> 00:03:03,836 Speaker 1: a difficult challenge, maybe related to one of the constraints 36 00:03:03,836 --> 00:03:04,516 Speaker 1: you just mentioned. 37 00:03:04,916 --> 00:03:07,876 Speaker 2: On our very first episode, we had a coffee company 38 00:03:07,916 --> 00:03:10,996 Speaker 2: who their entire warehouse burned down, most of their inventory 39 00:03:11,036 --> 00:03:13,916 Speaker 2: gone overnight, and they had to figure out what to do. 40 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:17,756 Speaker 2: They had built a strong support system that was not 41 00:03:17,836 --> 00:03:21,196 Speaker 2: only the traditional centers of influence that a small business 42 00:03:21,236 --> 00:03:23,276 Speaker 2: would have, an accountant, a lawyer, and an insurance agent, 43 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:26,116 Speaker 2: all those kinds of things. They had also built deep 44 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:30,516 Speaker 2: connections into their coffee community, including with competitors. And it's 45 00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 2: not the way you would normally think that this would go, 46 00:03:33,196 --> 00:03:36,076 Speaker 2: but because they had built such deep mutual respect, they 47 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 2: were actually storing some of their coffee supplies with a competitor. 48 00:03:39,996 --> 00:03:42,956 Speaker 2: and the competitor let them use their equipment at night 49 00:03:43,076 --> 00:03:46,316 Speaker 2: until they could get their factory rebuilt. That's an example 50 00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:49,396 Speaker 2: of something where a little bit of foresight and a 51 00:03:49,436 --> 00:03:53,356 Speaker 2: little bit of networking and a lot of goodwill was 52 00:03:53,396 --> 00:03:54,356 Speaker 2: able to pull them through. 53 00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:57,836 Speaker 1: Hm. I love that story, and what a beautiful example of 54 00:03:57,956 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: humanity shining through in a difficult time. What lessons do 55 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:03,476 Speaker 1: you think we should learn from that example? 56 00:04:04,036 --> 00:04:07,356 Speaker 2: We should learn a couple of things. One is we 57 00:04:07,516 --> 00:04:12,436 Speaker 2: build our networks that matter when things are fine, not 58 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:15,916 Speaker 2: when things aren't fine. Invest in those things when you 59 00:04:15,956 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 2: are not asking for anything, because nobody likes to be 60 00:04:19,116 --> 00:04:21,316 Speaker 2: asked for the first time when they've never seen you 61 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:23,556 Speaker 2: and they've never met you and you need help. So 62 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:25,796 Speaker 2: that's one is build those networks then, and two is 63 00:04:25,836 --> 00:04:28,596 Speaker 2: really do some contingency planning. I talked about the many 64 00:04:28,636 --> 00:04:30,716 Speaker 2: responsibilities of a small business owner. One of them is 65 00:04:30,756 --> 00:04:33,236 Speaker 2: to think through what could go wrong, and think about 66 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:35,196 Speaker 2: what could go wrong that you could survive, and what 67 00:04:35,236 --> 00:04:36,996 Speaker 2: could go wrong that you might not survive, and what 68 00:04:37,036 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 2: am I going to do to manage that risk. 69 00:04:39,516 --> 00:04:41,916 Speaker 1: That's such an excellent point. It's what you're doing when 70 00:04:41,956 --> 00:04:42,796 Speaker 1: things are going right. 71 00:04:43,076 --> 00:04:44,716 Speaker 2: I tell my kids that all the time. I'm like, 72 00:04:45,036 --> 00:04:46,796 Speaker 2: you make friends when things are good, you don't make 73 00:04:46,796 --> 00:04:47,716 Speaker 2: friends when things are bad. 74 00:04:49,076 --> 00:04:52,116 Speaker 1: There are so many stories of small business owners making 75 00:04:52,676 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 1: huge personal sacrifices in order to guarantee that their staff 76 00:04:57,076 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 1: and their company thrive. For example, CEOs shop owners going 77 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 1: an entire year or two without a proper salary to 78 00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 1: ensure that their staff gets paid. Just chatting with you 79 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:11,956 Speaker 1: now about the incredible demands that are placed on small 80 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:15,476 Speaker 1: business owners. Should we revere this trade as much as 81 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:18,636 Speaker 1: we do? And is there an alternative path to success 82 00:05:18,716 --> 00:05:22,476 Speaker 1: in which business owners are able to more effectively balance 83 00:05:23,356 --> 00:05:26,476 Speaker 1: caring about their staff and caring about themselves. 84 00:05:26,916 --> 00:05:29,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the ones, maya who do it 85 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:33,236 Speaker 2: really well sort of have a mental line drawn in 86 00:05:33,276 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 2: their mind and they try as much as they can 87 00:05:35,316 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 2: despite the fact that the business is you and you 88 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:41,556 Speaker 2: are the business to separate them. I talked about Quanetta McNeal, 89 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,316 Speaker 2: the woman we had on our show who she built 90 00:05:44,356 --> 00:05:47,876 Speaker 2: a business called Haus of Logistics, really interesting business distributing 91 00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 2: goods for a large e-commerce retailer. She lost her marriage 92 00:05:51,076 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 2: during the business, and she did a great job, I think, 93 00:05:54,156 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 2: managing the two things in as separate a way as 94 00:05:57,236 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 2: you can, because she knew deep down that keeping her 95 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 2: employees happy, satisfied and productive was the key to her 96 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:06,316 Speaker 2: business thriving, and that if her business was doing well, 97 00:06:06,316 --> 00:06:08,156 Speaker 2: she would be able to deal with the things she 98 00:06:08,196 --> 00:06:09,756 Speaker 2: needed to deal with in her personal life. And I 99 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 2: have a lot of respect for that. 100 00:06:11,396 --> 00:06:14,276 Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that one reason small business owner's mental 101 00:06:14,316 --> 00:06:17,756 Speaker 1: health might be compromised is because they really do feel 102 00:06:17,756 --> 00:06:21,516 Speaker 1: a huge responsibility to care for their employees right that 103 00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:25,436 Speaker 1: it rests on their shoulders. And one scientist I spoke 104 00:06:25,436 --> 00:06:28,516 Speaker 1: with on the show a professor from Stanford named Jamil Zaki. 105 00:06:28,556 --> 00:06:31,516 Speaker 1: He actually studies the science of empathy, and there are 106 00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:34,676 Speaker 1: three kinds of empathy. The first type is called emotional empathy, 107 00:06:34,956 --> 00:06:37,996 Speaker 1: the kind of visceral experience we have when we literally 108 00:06:38,036 --> 00:06:40,876 Speaker 1: feel someone else's emotions right, our facial expressions change, we 109 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:43,716 Speaker 1: might have a tear form in our eyes. The second 110 00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:47,596 Speaker 1: is cognitive empathy, which is simply recognizing what it is 111 00:06:47,636 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 1: that might make the other person feel better. And then 112 00:06:50,076 --> 00:06:53,316 Speaker 1: the third type of empathy is empathic concern, so the 113 00:06:53,636 --> 00:06:56,676 Speaker 1: ability to want to help the other person, to actually care. 114 00:06:57,156 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 1: What Jamil says is that emotional empathy is the kind 115 00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:05,156 Speaker 1: of empathy that's most associated with burnout, and so sometimes 116 00:07:05,196 --> 00:07:06,916 Speaker 1: people feel like, well, I don't want to do away 117 00:07:06,956 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: with my empathy altogether, because I want to be the 118 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:11,636 Speaker 1: type of CEO that cares about my employees. And he 119 00:07:11,796 --> 00:07:14,716 Speaker 1: offers an alternative, which is maybe you just switch the 120 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 1: kind of empathy that you feel in that moment, so 121 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:20,716 Speaker 1: rather than channeling it towards that visceral physical feeling in 122 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:23,756 Speaker 1: your body, you channel it to words actually coming up 123 00:07:23,796 --> 00:07:27,076 Speaker 1: with constructive solutions. And so they found that with for example, 124 00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 1: healthcare workers, when they focus more on empathic concern and 125 00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 1: more on cognitive empathy, they're much less likely to experience burnout. 126 00:07:34,836 --> 00:07:38,116 Speaker 2: And how actively can someone make that decision? Can can 127 00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:41,116 Speaker 2: someone make a conscious choice? I feel so awful, I 128 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:42,876 Speaker 2: want to cry for this person. The tear is going 129 00:07:42,876 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 2: down my cheek, but I'm not going to cry. That 130 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:46,476 Speaker 2: tear I'm going to focus on is that a real 131 00:07:46,516 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 2: thing people can do. 132 00:07:47,636 --> 00:07:50,076 Speaker 1: Different types of empathy are things that we can cultivate. 133 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:52,996 Speaker 1: So in the person that can't resist the tears, we're 134 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:56,676 Speaker 1: not saying stifle them. We're saying, then try to channel 135 00:07:56,716 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 1: your effort and focus and attention on the cognitive empathy 136 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:03,516 Speaker 1: side of things. Right, So it's not necessarily one empathy 137 00:08:03,796 --> 00:08:07,676 Speaker 1: displacing another one, as much as grabbing the bulk of 138 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:11,076 Speaker 1: your attention in that moment which we think can help 139 00:08:11,116 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 1: prevent burnout. Or for people who are accused by their 140 00:08:13,996 --> 00:08:18,116 Speaker 1: staff of not being empathetic enough. Right, they might say, like, look, 141 00:08:18,156 --> 00:08:21,596 Speaker 1: I can't force tears when they're not there, but you're 142 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:25,076 Speaker 1: allowing people to understand there's actually a richer landscape of 143 00:08:25,116 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 1: possibility when it comes to empathy. And so yes, maybe 144 00:08:28,076 --> 00:08:30,756 Speaker 1: that kind of visceral empathy doesn't come to you naturally, 145 00:08:30,796 --> 00:08:32,716 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean you're not an empathetic person or 146 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 1: that you're not capable of cultivating other kinds of empathy. 147 00:08:35,996 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: So I think it's like, in the same way that 148 00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:41,596 Speaker 1: people have different love languages, they have different empathic languages, 149 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:45,076 Speaker 1: and that kind of diversity can help people thrive. 150 00:08:45,316 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I've never heard that framework. 151 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 1: I want to know whether you have advice for people, 152 00:08:50,836 --> 00:08:53,116 Speaker 1: for listeners of this show who are just struggling with 153 00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 1: their well being generally at work, whether they work for 154 00:08:55,436 --> 00:08:58,276 Speaker 1: a small business or not. They're just like Ben, work 155 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:00,956 Speaker 1: is hard. Give me some techniques to help me get 156 00:09:00,956 --> 00:09:02,516 Speaker 1: through this challenging time. 157 00:09:02,716 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, for you know, having done a 158 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:08,636 Speaker 2: lot of stressful jobs myself. If I'm honest, I think 159 00:09:08,676 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 2: there are two or three things that can really help. 160 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:13,796 Speaker 2: The first one I would say is understanding the purpose 161 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:16,436 Speaker 2: and being really clear in your own mind about why 162 00:09:16,476 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 2: you do what you do, because when you lose your why, 163 00:09:18,996 --> 00:09:23,276 Speaker 2: it gets exponentially harder to cope with whatever things throw you. 164 00:09:23,396 --> 00:09:26,036 Speaker 2: It's like for anybody who's listening who has kids, you know, 165 00:09:26,116 --> 00:09:28,636 Speaker 2: the minute you have that child, you're very clear on 166 00:09:29,316 --> 00:09:31,516 Speaker 2: why that child matters to you. And when you're up 167 00:09:31,596 --> 00:09:34,596 Speaker 2: late at night doing what you know, you cope because, 168 00:09:34,956 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 2: because you see the bigger picture. Maintaining that bigger picture 169 00:09:37,596 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 2: in that why, so that it's always there in the 170 00:09:39,356 --> 00:09:42,476 Speaker 2: front of your mind, I think is really helpful. The 171 00:09:42,516 --> 00:09:44,276 Speaker 2: second is, and I have had to learn this the 172 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 2: hard way, is that organization will set you free. There 173 00:09:48,436 --> 00:09:51,396 Speaker 2: is the rare bird who can flit from thing to 174 00:09:51,476 --> 00:09:54,116 Speaker 2: thing in a completely disorganized way and hold it all together. 175 00:09:54,876 --> 00:10:00,676 Speaker 2: Most people can't. So being incredibly intentional about how you 176 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 2: spend your time, what you spend your time on, and 177 00:10:03,076 --> 00:10:05,516 Speaker 2: critically what you won't spend your time on, and so 178 00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 2: you're okay if it doesn't get done because you are 179 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:10,316 Speaker 2: choosing not to spend your time time on it. You 180 00:10:10,356 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 2: own your calendar or it will own you no matter 181 00:10:12,436 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 2: what you do. And then the third is whether you 182 00:10:14,796 --> 00:10:16,796 Speaker 2: work for a company or you are a small business owner, 183 00:10:16,876 --> 00:10:19,596 Speaker 2: or you're a CEO or what, it doesn't matter. You 184 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:23,956 Speaker 2: need trusted outlets. You need people who you can talk 185 00:10:23,996 --> 00:10:27,436 Speaker 2: to and tell anything to, and most importantly, you need 186 00:10:27,436 --> 00:10:31,396 Speaker 2: truth tellers. You need people who will be brutally honest 187 00:10:31,436 --> 00:10:34,356 Speaker 2: with you and who will tell you well. The reason 188 00:10:34,396 --> 00:10:36,676 Speaker 2: that you're not coping well is because you're focused on 189 00:10:36,716 --> 00:10:39,716 Speaker 2: the wrong things, or you're chasing something down a rabbit 190 00:10:39,716 --> 00:10:41,956 Speaker 2: hole that you shouldn't. You know, it's okay to go 191 00:10:42,316 --> 00:10:44,236 Speaker 2: people for comfort, but I think having a you know, 192 00:10:44,236 --> 00:10:46,476 Speaker 2: one or two people in your life who you go 193 00:10:46,516 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 2: to who you know will just let you have it 194 00:10:48,196 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 2: in all honesty, good or bad. In a completely trusting scenario, 195 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 2: I think is super helpful for people trying to cope 196 00:10:55,716 --> 00:10:56,116 Speaker 2: at work. 197 00:10:59,876 --> 00:11:02,676 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you're a fan 198 00:11:02,756 --> 00:11:05,276 Speaker 1: of A Slight Change of Plans, I'd so appreciate if 199 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,756 Speaker 1: you could follow our show on Apple, Spotify or wherever 200 00:11:08,756 --> 00:11:11,356 Speaker 1: you listen into podcasts. It helps get the word out 201 00:11:11,356 --> 00:11:13,836 Speaker 1: about the show so we can keep making more episodes 202 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:17,236 Speaker 1: for you and join me next time when world renowned 203 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 1: rock climber Beth Rodden tells her side of the story, 204 00:11:21,076 --> 00:11:23,516 Speaker 1: the one that put her name in headlines all over 205 00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:27,356 Speaker 1: the world. That's next time on A Slight Change of Plans. 206 00:11:27,756 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 1: See you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written 207 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:35,316 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shankar. The Slight Change 208 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:39,116 Speaker 1: family includes our show runner Tyler Green, our senior editor 209 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:43,716 Speaker 1: Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, 210 00:11:43,996 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 1: and our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our 211 00:11:47,916 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 212 00:11:51,716 --> 00:11:55,036 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 213 00:11:55,156 --> 00:11:58,156 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 214 00:11:58,356 --> 00:12:01,436 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 215 00:12:01,476 --> 00:12:04,716 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shankar. 216 00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:05,756 Speaker 1: See you next week.