1
00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:08,080
Speaker 1: Body dust. But Joseph Scott more I'm a fan of

2
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,799
Speaker 1: one kind of I guess you could say he's a

3
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:17,120
Speaker 1: niche musical artist. He's from my teen years and there

4
00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:22,720
Speaker 1: are certain songs that I particularly enjoy by, of all people,

5
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,000
Speaker 1: Pelvis Costello, and he was just a unique artist, still

6
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:33,199
Speaker 1: is and with a kind of an acquired taste relative

7
00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,520
Speaker 1: to his voice. But there was one song in particular

8
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 1: that I really enjoyed that he created, and it had

9
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:46,160
Speaker 1: to do with his grandmother. And he talked about his grandmother,

10
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 1: you know, kind of slipping away in age and diminishing.

11
00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,440
Speaker 1: But that with her name, the name became a real

12
00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,960
Speaker 1: hook for the song. As the DJ types would say,

13
00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 1: the song was called Veronica, and it always stands out

14
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,000
Speaker 1: in my mind. There's nothing else that sounds like it.

15
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,520
Speaker 1: But today I want to talk about another Veronica. I

16
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,959
Speaker 1: want to talk about a Veronica who was a mother

17
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 1: who had children that she loved, she cared for. She

18
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:35,200
Speaker 1: had hit a rough patch in her life, but her life,

19
00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:42,280
Speaker 1: after twenty seven years, came to a miserable, miserable end

20
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 1: in the middle of farming country in Oklahoma. I'm Joseph

21
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Dave you ever listened

22
00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 1: to any Elvis Costello or is that on your playlist

23
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: or not?

24
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,400
Speaker 2: You know, I have a very wide variety of music

25
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 2: I enjoy, so yes, there is some Elvis Costello in

26
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,800
Speaker 2: the mix. But I was wondering how you were pulling

27
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 2: all this together with that and Veronica Butler being the

28
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,640
Speaker 2: subject today. You know, for the most part, Joe, Kansas

29
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,800
Speaker 2: Moms is how we started this story. If you remember

30
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,080
Speaker 2: when we were covering it, they were missing. Kansas Moms

31
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,680
Speaker 2: are missing. I'm glad you mentioned Veronica Butler having hit

32
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 2: a rough patch. I was explaining to this over the

33
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 2: last several days to a friend of mine. Oftentimes, when

34
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 2: you have custodial issues of children, it's not just the

35
00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,400
Speaker 2: parents that are in the mix. It's oftentimes grandparents who

36
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 2: decide to get in and star of the pot as well.

37
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 2: And Veronica Butler was dealing with a grandmother, her ex

38
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,360
Speaker 2: her ex is mom, children's paternal grandmother. And Veronica Butler

39
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,079
Speaker 2: had turned her life around. Yes she had gone through

40
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,800
Speaker 2: some rough patches, and yes she did lose custody of

41
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,840
Speaker 2: her children, but she had fought her way back hard.

42
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,280
Speaker 2: She was, you know, active in recovery, she was active

43
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,280
Speaker 2: in her church. She really had done a lot of

44
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 2: work to get herself together to be the mom her

45
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 2: children deserved, the mom she wanted to be, and believe

46
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 2: it or not, that's what cost her her life because

47
00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 2: she was going to get her kids back Joe. She

48
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 2: was going to not have to go through visitation with

49
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,120
Speaker 2: somebody watching. She was going to have her children twenty

50
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 2: four to seven, and for most of us would look

51
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 2: at that as a success story, something to be championed,

52
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,880
Speaker 2: something to share, but not in this case.

53
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,000
Speaker 1: Let's play junior psychologists for a second. Well, I think

54
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 1: I think mine would be not a junior psychologist. I

55
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,119
Speaker 1: would be like a pre school psychologist.

56
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 2: Regious. I want to phone a friend.

57
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 1: I wonder in circumstances like this, and you know, we

58
00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 1: might have friends out there that have gone through similar circumstances,

59
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 1: people that are trying to get their lives back on track,

60
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,680
Speaker 1: and suddenly they do and you're a new person. Now.

61
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:27,039
Speaker 1: I really wonder if that factors into anger, because in

62
00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 1: the past, if you had, say, addiction issues, perhaps you

63
00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 1: had issues with personal responsibility, all of a sudden, you

64
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 1: don't You're not tethered to those people in the old

65
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,280
Speaker 1: manner anyway, and those people always saw your weakness as

66
00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 1: a strength for them, that kind of asymmetry that they

67
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,520
Speaker 1: could control you. You know, they could say, well, you

68
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 1: know you've got addiction issues and you know you don't

69
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 1: need to be around these kids, or you can't even

70
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,520
Speaker 1: show up on time, you know, how can we expect

71
00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,800
Speaker 1: you to take care of these kids? Is their food

72
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:14,160
Speaker 1: in the fridge? Well, you place that dynamic into the situation,

73
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,440
Speaker 1: you really wonder if that if that goes to incurring

74
00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,840
Speaker 1: the wrath of somebody that has previously controlled you, do

75
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,840
Speaker 1: you what do you? What do you think about that? Then?

76
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,760
Speaker 2: Nail on the head. Nail on the head. It's so tough, Joe,

77
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 2: when when you see somebody that has turned their life around,

78
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:41,039
Speaker 2: and again I say many times, you like to champion them,

79
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,120
Speaker 2: but there are always going to be people that say, well,

80
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,840
Speaker 2: you know what you used to do, you know who

81
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 2: you used to be, you know, and they don't let

82
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,159
Speaker 2: you get past that. And that's actually what happened here,

83
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 2: or if we're going to be very minimalistic, that's what happened.

84
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,200
Speaker 2: Reality is And you know this, I've talked about it here,

85
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,120
Speaker 2: I've shared this, but recovery from alcoholism and drug addiction

86
00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,400
Speaker 2: is it's a tough thing. Many people don't make it,

87
00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 2: but when those do. In this particular case with Veronica Butler,

88
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,680
Speaker 2: she turned her life around. She was a success story.

89
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,440
Speaker 1: I would think that you would need a strong core

90
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 1: group of people to support you during this time, because

91
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:28,599
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're kind of in a an infant

92
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,839
Speaker 1: stage and development, you know, relative to a new life.

93
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,080
Speaker 1: You know, you're just trying to get your legs and

94
00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,720
Speaker 1: then you're dealing with these really really intense, complex issues.

95
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 1: And it seems as though that it would you know,

96
00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 1: and I know I'm kind of overstating the obvious here,

97
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 1: but it seems as though that it would be very

98
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,720
Speaker 1: easy for somebody that had these issues to relapse. Oh

99
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,040
Speaker 1: and the fact that she was still, you know, kind

100
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 1: of forging a head and trying to get her life online.

101
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:08,159
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, her ex husband was in jail.

102
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,040
Speaker 1: You know, he he's got issues as well. But yet

103
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 1: she's in a you know, she's up in Kansas now,

104
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: she's part of a church group, you know, and she's

105
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 1: got somebody that's it would seem that would standing in

106
00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 1: the gap with her and of course we all know

107
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,000
Speaker 1: what happened to that poor woman, oh my, in regards

108
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:36,240
Speaker 1: to this case, because we we actually covered her case

109
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 1: just a few weeks back, right, and you have to

110
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, you can't climb inside the necessarily the mind

111
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:52,480
Speaker 1: of the killer or killers is my suspicion in this case.

112
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 1: But I can tell you what we can unpeel and

113
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 1: unwrap here is that it's sad on one level, but

114
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 1: it's informative. I'm here to tell you, Dave that today

115
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:15,160
Speaker 1: we have the full autopsy now on Veronica Butler that

116
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 1: has been issued from the Office of the Chief Medical

117
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 1: Examiner or Oklahoma City. I think that as we continue

118
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,280
Speaker 1: to discuss this case, you will see what I have

119
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:35,839
Speaker 1: previously stated born out that Veronica died a horrible death

120
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:42,520
Speaker 1: and that yes, it did in fact surpass the injuries

121
00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 1: that were incurred by her friend, this woman who was

122
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,560
Speaker 1: with her. It was a brutal, brutal death. And I

123
00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 1: know this that whoever perpetrated this, whoever will be named

124
00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:05,200
Speaker 1: in this case as being the responsible party, I don't

125
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 1: know if there's any way to measure the darkness in

126
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 1: their soul. I have a lot of folks that reach

127
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 1: out to me and I want I want me to

128
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,319
Speaker 1: review autopsy reports and to take a look at them

129
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: and read over them, and other reports too, but primarily

130
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,080
Speaker 1: autopsy reports, just to you know, kind of give my

131
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:53,480
Speaker 1: two cents on the findings. I think probably the most

132
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: difficult thing for most people when it comes to these

133
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 1: post more of the big reveals, if you will, is

134
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,960
Speaker 1: the fact that they're very detailed. We used to say

135
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:13,079
Speaker 1: things like, well, this reads like stereo instructions, and if

136
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,160
Speaker 1: you're if you're not used to reviewing them and reading them,

137
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,320
Speaker 1: they can they can be rather complex. But this, this

138
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,040
Speaker 1: autopsy report is actually very detailed, Dave. This is a

139
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,400
Speaker 1: sixteen pager, and that gives you some indication as to

140
00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:41,040
Speaker 1: how detailed this is. It seems it goes on forever

141
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:48,520
Speaker 1: and in fine detail. Relative to the insults that Veronica sustained,

142
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,640
Speaker 1: these injuries all over her body, they're not all stab wounds,

143
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 1: but there are a plethora of them. I think that

144
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 1: we could say that the trauma that she sustained is.

145
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:04,320
Speaker 2: Is horrible.

146
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,040
Speaker 1: And also, you know the other thing that really you know,

147
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,960
Speaker 1: sticks with me about this case, you know, as it

148
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 1: did with Julian Kelly, I think is probably how both

149
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:24,000
Speaker 1: of these women's remains were treated. That really gives you

150
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 1: an insight, I think, into the psyche of the individuals

151
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,240
Speaker 1: that were involved in this case.

152
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,280
Speaker 2: A couple of quick questions. You mentioned it's sixteen pages long,

153
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,440
Speaker 2: and is that the norm? Are they normally that long?

154
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:44,160
Speaker 2: Or is this? Does the sixteen pages indicate just how

155
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,319
Speaker 2: bad it was? Or is that normal? I mean, I

156
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,600
Speaker 2: don't know what it takes to explain a scratch on

157
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 2: my elbow.

158
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, okay, I can Okay. The quick answer is

159
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,200
Speaker 1: it's going to be It's going to be dependent upon

160
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,559
Speaker 1: the complexity of the case. And you could say that

161
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,719
Speaker 1: if you're you know, if you're reading an engineering schematic,

162
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 1: you know, are we building you know, a tool shed

163
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,240
Speaker 1: in the backyard or we building a twenty thousand square

164
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,280
Speaker 1: foot mansion. The complexity of what you have before you

165
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,920
Speaker 1: dictates the length of the report. If if you have

166
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:32,839
Speaker 1: a a forensic pathologist that has a detailed mind. Some

167
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:40,960
Speaker 1: have some or more more inclined to be very very detailed,

168
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,560
Speaker 1: but you do have those that will just kind of

169
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 1: run over things really really quickly, and it demands, you know, interpretation.

170
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 1: I think I think sometimes I don't know this is

171
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 1: my own bias, probably. I think sometimes I've come across

172
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,320
Speaker 1: reports at almost seemed as though the pathologist was leaving

173
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,640
Speaker 1: things unexplained on purpose so that they would be drawn

174
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: into the descriptor, whether it be for a deposition or

175
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,280
Speaker 1: whether it be you know, sitting sitting in court and

176
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 1: offering up you know, their opinion in court. You know,

177
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,080
Speaker 1: it's that that's just the way my mind was. I

178
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 1: don't know if that's accurate or not, but it seems

179
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 1: to be. But with this case, Dave, you know, we're

180
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 1: we're talking about a case that you know that involves

181
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,720
Speaker 1: I think thirty thirty sharp force injuries, Dave, and they're

182
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:43,719
Speaker 1: they're all over the body. And in addition to that,

183
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, she's she has sustained a really, really nasty

184
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,640
Speaker 1: blunt force strike to her head. And that striking and

185
00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:06,200
Speaker 1: of itself is is brutal because it's what we refer to,

186
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 1: Dave as a full thickness laceration, which means you can

187
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,559
Speaker 1: have like on the on the scalp, you can have

188
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 1: kind of a tear in the scalp that comes about

189
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 1: from blunt force, but when you get a full thickness,

190
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 1: this doesn't just break the skin. This goes all the

191
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 1: way through every single layer of the scalp down down

192
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,880
Speaker 1: to the skull, so that the skull would actually you know,

193
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,000
Speaker 1: bear evidence of hemorrhage you know on it, where you've

194
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,120
Speaker 1: got blood that is all over the surface of the

195
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,560
Speaker 1: skull and it's communicating with the overlying laceration. And in

196
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: this case, that's what she had. And here's an interesting,

197
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,240
Speaker 1: a very interesting descriptor that they give to this, to

198
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: this strike. Dave the forensic pathologist, she actually describes this

199
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 1: laceration as chevron shaped. And for those that don't know

200
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,640
Speaker 1: what a chevron is, if you think of sergeant Stripes

201
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 1: in the army or a marine corps where you have,

202
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, the the chevron looks like a you know,

203
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 1: a mosquito wing essentially. It's actually that's what they're referred

204
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,240
Speaker 1: to as. If you're a private you get that first stripe,

205
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: it's a mosquito wing and it you know, it has

206
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 1: that that point at the top and kind of you know,

207
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 1: slides down on both sides. Dave to me, to me,

208
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,840
Speaker 1: if you've got that definitive kind of mark like that,

209
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,640
Speaker 1: I'm really wondering if there was any way that they

210
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 1: could tell that there was a particular instrument that was

211
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,280
Speaker 1: used here. Wow, because you know, you have to think about, well,

212
00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:00,480
Speaker 1: what would create a very specific injury like this a

213
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 1: chevron shape and if you think about, say the leading

214
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: edge of any kind of squared off object. Perhaps I've

215
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 1: seen chevron shapes with a brick. I've seen chevron shapes

216
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 1: actually with a piece of angle iron that that goes

217
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 1: to that that makes kind of sense. I've seen chevron

218
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 1: shapes that are associated with pistol whippings as well. Wow,

219
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: because if you think the shape, if you think about

220
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 1: the shape of a of a semi automatic pistol, if

221
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 1: you look at the end of the barrel where the

222
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 1: slide is and the sight the end that that sight

223
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,240
Speaker 1: at the end the hard site that the iron sight

224
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,280
Speaker 1: that's at the end, the shape of the barrel, it forms,

225
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of forms this ninety degree angle

226
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 1: like that, and so you can generate a chevron shape

227
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 1: from that. So and look again, it might not necessarily

228
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,720
Speaker 1: be anything specific like that, but uh, the doctor doctor

229
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,879
Speaker 1: Cobb went to went into detail to drive mean that

230
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 1: this was a chevron shaped laceration. And another feature that

231
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,840
Speaker 1: we look for in lacerations. And I always love to

232
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,639
Speaker 1: point this out, particularly to people that that work in

233
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,119
Speaker 1: the medical field. Uh, they'll call cuts many times cuts

234
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,119
Speaker 1: with with sharp force injuries, they'll call them lacerations, and

235
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 1: they're not. Those are not lacerations. Those are in sized wounds.

236
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,399
Speaker 1: Lacerations are generated from blunt force trauma. And in here

237
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,679
Speaker 1: doctor Cobb talks about tissue bridging. So tissue bridging is

238
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 1: means that you've got this this item that has pounded

239
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,159
Speaker 1: on the skin and has literally torn the skin. So

240
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,280
Speaker 1: you've got these little fine fibers that are still connecting,

241
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 1: you know, the boat odds of the injury, and there

242
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 1: was no associated underlying fracture of the skull, but it

243
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,400
Speaker 1: was this this blow was strong enough to generate this

244
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 1: chevron shaped laceration. If this had been done with a knife,

245
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:25,439
Speaker 1: for instance, or an axe, okay, you wouldn't have tissue bridging, okay,

246
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: because you've got that milled edge that cuts through tissue

247
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 1: and it makes those margins nice and even. And here

248
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: she was struck in the head the other thing again,

249
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: just like we had with Jillian. I don't know if

250
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,040
Speaker 1: you remember this, my friend, but do you recall there

251
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,440
Speaker 1: was a unique injury that was found in Gillian's case,

252
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:56,160
Speaker 1: and again we have with Veronica. We have also what

253
00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 1: the me is calling burns from or a burn from

254
00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:04,640
Speaker 1: what appears to be a stunt gun.

255
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:14,639
Speaker 2: I found it shocking in reading the autopsy report that, well,

256
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 2: I'm in the back of a minute. You mentioned the taser,

257
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking about the battle that went on. This

258
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 2: autopsy report describes a battle for life and death and

259
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,679
Speaker 2: Veronica Butler is outnumbered. And I was trying to in

260
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,920
Speaker 2: knowing that we had done Jilly and Kelly before, and

261
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 2: in my mind's eye, were looking at four people attacking

262
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,680
Speaker 2: these two women, and I'm trying to think of who

263
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 2: was taken out of commission first. They weren't piling on

264
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,679
Speaker 2: both of There wasn't a dual fight going on like

265
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,119
Speaker 2: in the movies. I don't think it seems to me

266
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 2: they were able to hold one steady or incapacitated in

267
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 2: some way while the other was killed. That was my

268
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 2: thought process. But now that I'm reading this and I'm

269
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 2: I was shocked at the number of defensive wounds.

270
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Can I say something about that really? Please? Yeah? Uh,

271
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 1: this gives me, This gives me, This opens up my

272
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 1: mind as an investigator to begin to think that she

273
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: may have been taunted, she may have been taunted, that

274
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: they're coming around her like a pack of ravenous wolves

275
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: at this point in time. And remember, if we go

276
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: back to what we were saying earlier, or what I

277
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:47,120
Speaker 1: will say playing you know, elementary psychologists, there's a lot

278
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 1: of anger involved here, and you know, you can kind

279
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: of kind of game this out in your mind where

280
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 1: you're thinking, Okay, so this individual that has decided to

281
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 1: perpetrate this, if it is the accused, and again, this

282
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 1: case is not going to trial, so nobody has been tried.

283
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: We've got individuals that have been charged, but nobody has

284
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: been tried and found guilty. But if if this was

285
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: an event where you've got her on the receiving end

286
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: of all of this anger, all of this hatred, there

287
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: there may have been a kind of this precursor to

288
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 1: the fatal attack. Because we we've got injuries that you know,

289
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 1: are consistent with her defending herself. You know, where she's

290
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 1: you know, lifting her arms, her hands. We've got these

291
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: what they're detailing out as as defensive style injuries. Uh,

292
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 1: and you know that and you can, you know, you

293
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 1: can begin to learn a lot about the the the

294
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: I don't know the dynamic of an event because there's

295
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: there's six, there's six defensive style injuries. Uh, dave that.

296
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: Uh you know, we've got them to the second and

297
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: the fifth fingers on on Veronica's hand, and these are

298
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: all again on the right hand with the six and

299
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: she's got a a superficial what they're calling a superficial

300
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 1: defensive type wound on the left proximal forearm, which is

301
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: going to be closer to the proximal means closer to

302
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: so when you say plot, if it was on the

303
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: left wrist, that would be distal. If you talk about

304
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: proximal left proximal, that means you're getting closer to the elbow.

305
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: So she's blocking with her left left arm and she's

306
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: grabbing a knife with her right. Do you see how

307
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 1: how just cruesomeness is at this point in time. And

308
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: she's even got a she's got a single defensive style

309
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: wound to her left palm, So at some point in

310
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: time that knife that was used was drug through you know,

311
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: her palm. Uh. She's got several of these kind of

312
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: superficial uh insized wounds, even stuff on like the inner

313
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: portion of her thighs, the left left eigh in particular.

314
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a huge dynamic going on here. This

315
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,239
Speaker 1: is you know, this this knife being used over and

316
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: over and over again. Now she is trying. She knows

317
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: that these people at this point in time are here

318
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: to to you know, to end her life. I think

319
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: one of the things that's fascinating to me, you know,

320
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 1: kind of going back to the back to these taser

321
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: not tasting but stun gun injuries, how did you know?

322
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: You can never tell sequence about these things, and if

323
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: you're it's a fool's er. And if you try, if

324
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: you try to, it truly is uh. And I really

325
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: wonder about the sequencing of the you know, of these

326
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: of these stun gun injuries as compared to the strike,

327
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: the chevron strike injury that she has on her scalp

328
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: and also these defensive injuries. Did did they stun her

329
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: when she was in the vehicle or did they stun

330
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 1: her once she got out? Because the stun gun injuries

331
00:24:53,400 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: that Veronica has on her on her body there referring

332
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: to them are it as the upper upper back, lower neck,

333
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: So that means that unless if you're the perpetrator unless

334
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: you wrap your arms around her from the front and

335
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: stunder that way. This is being initiated by somebody being

336
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: in at your posterior and extending their arm or maybe

337
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: grabbing you by your forehead and jaminous thing into the

338
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: back of your and and buzzing you with it and

339
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: it knocks them down to the ground. But if you're

340
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: incapacitated as a result of a stunt gun, have you

341
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: ever seen anybody hit with a stun gun before? They Yeah, yeah,

342
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: I have. And I've seen tasers too. And when you

343
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: and there's all the taser videos that are online, you

344
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: know about cops going through training, the military going through training,

345
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: and you are in fact incapacity. Now, some people, as

346
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: we see in some of these remarkable videos, they get

347
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: hit with a taser and it doesn't fade. I mean,

348
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: they just keep on, you know, keep on keeping on.

349
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: But for most people, you're going to go into this

350
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: kind of tense rigidity where you fall to the fall

351
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: to the ground and it takes you it takes you

352
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: a minute or two to clear your head. So we

353
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: have to think that the taser wounds would not have

354
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: come at the same time the defensive wounds would have

355
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: come out, So the sequence there you really begin to

356
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: wonder about sequence of these insults. If she's popped with

357
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: that taser or forgive me, with stun gun, that would

358
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: be posterior. Now I don't know if she just collapsed

359
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: into a pool, you know, inside of the truck, outside

360
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: of the truck, or if she fell forward. You would

361
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: think falling forward be the most logical things since she's

362
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: popped on the back of the neck and then she's stabbed.

363
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: But does she have an awareness of stab wounds that

364
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: she's having she turns around or rolls over finally and

365
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: starts grabbing a knife, or is she erect when this

366
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: is going Did she get back because they've got to

367
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: move them around, you know, to this grave that has

368
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: been dug Either way, I know this by my account.

369
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: I don't know in recent memory if we have covered

370
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: a case with so many injuries as were sustained by

371
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: Veronica Butler. But when you take this and you begin

372
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: to think about the totality of injuries here and the

373
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: fact that this happened to two women approximating the same

374
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: location on the same day who wind up being in

375
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: the same grave, you know that there is more than

376
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: one person that have a hands. If most of us

377
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: will just view an autopsy report as a roadmap, it

378
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: will give you a lot of insight into both maybe

379
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: life that had been lived, the moments of death, and

380
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: then I think probably what happened to that individual after

381
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: they were deceased. And that's no different here in Veronica

382
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: Butler's case, Dave. But the thing about it is is

383
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: that this roadmap, so called roadmap is really like a

384
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: ram McNally book. Wow, so detailed. There's a blast from

385
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: the past.

386
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: But go ahead and google it. If you're under thirty five,

387
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: you have no idea what that is.

388
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: It is so very detailed, you know, relative to all

389
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: of the data that is contained herein before us, Dave.

390
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: I was looking at the report of autopsy that starts

391
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: with the means and it's title assault with knife, So

392
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: they start right there, and at the very beginning they've

393
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: already that they've got multiple sharp force trauma with a

394
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: total of thirty sharp force injuries, and then below that

395
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: heading a sharp force injuries to the head and neck

396
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: B sharp for injuries to the torso see sharp force

397
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: injuries to the extremities. In this balance of figuring out

398
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: exactly what happened scientifically, do you also take into account

399
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: which of these strikes blows cuts, what it could have

400
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: been fatal? Is that part of the discussion early.

401
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's excellent because if

402
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: you look at this most of the time, you're going

403
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: to start off in these findings almost like a death

404
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: certificate where if anyone has ever read a death certificate

405
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: and you there's generally three lines on the death certificate

406
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: and it will read, you know, the cause of death,

407
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: and then you've got contributing factors that kind of go

408
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: down the line. When you see when you see these

409
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: contributing factors, you know they they go to an overall narrative.

410
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: But what they're going to start off with are these

411
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: things that you know would have led, you know, lead

412
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: to to death. And you know, it's like the what

413
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: what's the old what's what's the old saying? You know,

414
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: or though uh, Shakespeare death by a thousand cuts, Yeah,

415
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: it's not it's not quick. And some of these things

416
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: are are superficial, uh, and some of them are are deep.

417
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, she's gotten multiple and they're calling

418
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: these in size Dave, these are not these are not

419
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: stab ones. Just to start off the sharp force injuries

420
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: in the subheadings, you've got four and sized ones, including

421
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: one deep to the top and the back of the head.

422
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: So when we say in size, that's a cut, well

423
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: that cut again like the laceration that we mentioned earlier,

424
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: this is this is a full thickness cut, Dave. This

425
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: is full thickness with a knife. So just imagine, if

426
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: you will, taking the sharp edge of a knife and

427
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: dragging it across the scalp of body and cutting not

428
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: just superficially, but all the way down to the bone.

429
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: It's got another you know, deep deep in sized wound

430
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: that goes Now, this is this is nuts to me.

431
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: She's got a deep in sized wound to the lower

432
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: central forehead. Yeah, why would you need that? And then

433
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: there's an underlying frontal skull fracture there. How do you

434
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: achieve that? And again, horrible, horrible stuff, but I think

435
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: probably what led to her debts. Specifically, she's got she's

436
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: got a stab wound to the left posterior lateral upper neck.

437
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: So if you if you take your left hand and

438
00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: essentially put it beneath your ear, your ear lobe, this

439
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: is going to be approximating the the the injury right there.

440
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: That's a stab wound. And this actually hits the left

441
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: internal juggular vein and also it goes into the oral floor.

442
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: Just think about is that the ral floor is where

443
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: the attachment of the tongue. That's how deep this thing goes,

444
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: all right, So you're clipping all these little vessels that

445
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: are in there. She's got another incized wound, uh, the

446
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: upper lateral neck on the left side, which implies to

447
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: me that somebody's trying to cut her throat. She's got

448
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: two stab wounds to the lower right anterio lateral and

449
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: lateral neck. So if you put your hand on the

450
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: right aspect of your neck, these these go. This is

451
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: very deep, Dave. These go now anterior lateral means like

452
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: ford and anterior forward and lateral, so it involves both aspects,

453
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: the right aspect of the neck, the anterior portion and lateral.

454
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 1: And Dave, this goes all the way down, uh. It

455
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: it clips the juggler vein on that side of the

456
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 1: of the neck and also goes all the way down

457
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: to the sea five vertebra clips her spinal nerve at

458
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: that point. Toime so you've got these really really deep,

459
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: deep wounds that would have required a tremendous amount of force.

460
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: And then on top of this, you've got all of

461
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: these defensive injuries that she sustained. So in total, you know,

462
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: we're we're looking at this. You know, this poor woman

463
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: sustained over thirty sharp force injuries, and sharp force means

464
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: that she's got stab wounds and in sized wounds, two

465
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: different things. And then she's got this, uh, this really

466
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: nasty blunt force trauma to the back of her head,

467
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: and she's been popped with a stun gun in addition

468
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: to this, uh this, And I hope that people understand

469
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: now the level of brutality. You combine this with Jillian,

470
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: and something that we talked about that we talked about

471
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: last time was that relative to Jillian, I really wondered,

472
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: and this goes along with taunting. I really wonder if

473
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: they killed Jillian uh in front of Veronica, because remember

474
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: Jillian was in the bottom, okay, and Veronica was found

475
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: on top of her inside of this container. And you

476
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: know that's enough to chill you right there. You know

477
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: that she was made to watch this event that took

478
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: place in front of her and and maybe maybe the

479
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: police will have more information relative to that. I don't know, brother,

480
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: it's it's certainly it paints a horrible, horrible picture.

481
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: Though, you know, there was the as you mentioned, you've

482
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: got the sharp forest trauma. The thirty again, think about

483
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 2: thirty stab wounds. Thirty not that's a lot, Joe, that's

484
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: a lot of sad wounds. And yeah, I'm thinking of

485
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: the pack of wolves circling. You know, she's hit on

486
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: the back of the head and I was thinking that,

487
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 2: you know, when you talked about the scalp in the front,

488
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: I was wondering if she got hit in the head

489
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: and that caused your front, the forehead to hit something

490
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: that caused this. But based on no, it was just

491
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: so much different.

492
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that location to me again, it's interesting because

493
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: you would think that she's got an underlying, an underlying

494
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: fracture right relative to what they're calling and in sized

495
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: an in sized wound. I don't know. I don't know

496
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: how you would achieve a a fracture, an underlying fracture

497
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: of an incized The insized wine is very deep. And

498
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: just to give our friends an idea where this thing is,

499
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: this is a disfigurement, Dave, if you go to your eyebrows, okay,

500
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: and essentially move up probably about an inch, that would

501
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: approximate the location of this full thickness in size woind

502
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: that she's got across her forehead. You know, and you

503
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: know to me, that's you don't normally see insized wounds

504
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: to a scalp like this where people you know, you've

505
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: got this other one on the back side of the head.

506
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: And also, by the way, that injury on the back,

507
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: that other inside deep insized one, it actually communicates or

508
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: the hemorrhage communicates, according to what the autopsy report says,

509
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: the hemorrhage from that insized injury communicates with the hemorrhage

510
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: generated from that blunt force trauma. So both of those

511
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: injuries has occurred in life. Uh, she had sustained these

512
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: that they this is this is the stuff of nightmares.

513
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: This is an attempt to to disfigure this poor woman.

514
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 2: While she's alive, scalping her while she's alive.

515
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I won't say, I won't necessarily say scalping.

516
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it involves the full thickness of the scalp,

517
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: and you've got these these injuries that are involving you know,

518
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: the head. It's very curious to me, uh, what what

519
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: the purpose was for this? And you know, these are

520
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: people that are allegedly very well equipped with Uh. They

521
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: have the means to have a cooler, a disabled cooler. Uh,

522
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: they have a skits deer, they have the ability to

523
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: dig a hole. What in the name of the Sweet Lord,

524
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: are you going to show up with knives? Yeah, you

525
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: have to think that they they had they had firearms.

526
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: Do you see what I'm saying here? It's one thing

527
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: if you, as horrible as it is, to find somebody

528
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: that has been executed with gunshot one of the head.

529
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: This goes beyond that. This goes beyond that. And you're

530
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: telling me that out of not you, the universal you,

531
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: you're telling me that, out of all of these people

532
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: that are involved in this confederacy here, that no one

533
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: among them had a firearm in order to facilitate the death,

534
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: a merciful death. Compared to what what we see played

535
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: out here, it's it's mind boggling.

536
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: And we know they did have a gun because we

537
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: found you know, parts of it, We found h you know,

538
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: and it might have been Varanica Butler's gun you know.

539
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know, but you know, why not have

540
00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: the utility to use it? You know, if it does

541
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: belong to the alleged perpetrators, why why does it your

542
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: Do you have no mercy left in your soul? Total torch,

543
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: none whatsoever? Because that, you know, we're really absent here

544
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: of of that level of humanity.

545
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: At the same day, let me ask you, though, there

546
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 2: was something else on the autopsy that it just struck

547
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:24,479
Speaker 2: me as odd because we've got the description of these

548
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 2: horrible injuries done to this woman, this mother, and we've

549
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: got the possible stun gun mars and the lower neck

550
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: and upper back. The bodies already are in what is

551
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: referred to as moderate putra Jack, I don't know how

552
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: you pronounced future active. Is that what it is? Puture

553
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: factive future factor? Okay, yeah, puture factor. It's decomposition. The

554
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: bodies are decomposing together, yeah, and so much.

555
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: So that they took the glow off the hands. The

556
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: hands were degloving, which means okay, but they were able

557
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: to peel that top layer and they submitted that to

558
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: the state. Yes, so they were decomposing degloving.

559
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: Is that top layer of skin?

560
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but why would.

561
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 2: They have to include an actual bullet point here? Number

562
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: five right, obesity? Why that's listed on Valerie Veronica Butler's here.

563
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: You know, you start off with multiple sharp worst trauma

564
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: with a total of thirty sharp forest injuries and number

565
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: five obesity.

566
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't I don't understand that. Uh. Generally, if

567
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: and it's not uncommon to see obesity listed in an

568
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: autopsy report, but it's generally in the in the like

569
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: in the Just so, folks, I'm kind of painting a

570
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: word picture here the autopsy report when you rea that

571
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: has these, it's essentially a list. It's a bulleted list

572
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: with Roman numerals, with subsections and such as that that

573
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: that the data for the injuries is coming from. However,

574
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: is that final bullet is placed in there it says obesity.

575
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: Generally you'll see a mention of obesity in the external

576
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: examination where they'll say, today we receive the body of

577
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, let's just pull uh you know of

578
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: John Smith, white male. He's moderately obese, morbidly obese. And

579
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: that's kind of in a general descriptor. This is literally

580
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: added in the area that would be considered a contributing

581
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: factor to her death, and I don't I don't understand

582
00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: the rationale for that. I would I think that this

583
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: is something that perhaps might be that she would have

584
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: to explain on the stand when this thing finally goes

585
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 1: to trial, because you kind of bury the lead here.

586
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: You know, you're going through these horrific injuries and oh,

587
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: by the way, she's obese. I don't understand how that

588
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: plays into it. I can understand it as a descriptor

589
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: right in a narrative description, but it just doesn't make sense.

590
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: And this thing is so detailed, this autopsy report. Other

591
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: than that little point, I think that that's really the

592
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: only thing that you know, that really stands out to

593
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: me this kind of odd. The autopsy report itself is

594
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: markedly detailed, which is fantastic because I in the last

595
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: few years, I've come across many that have little or nothing.

596
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: I think I had. I covered one case on the air,

597
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: and I know which case it was. I do so many.

598
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that I'm great. It just means that

599
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm dumb enough to keep doing. And you know, and

600
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: I was going to go on some news program and

601
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: I remember they sent me the autopsy report. David and

602
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: it was a multiple gunshot one where we had gunshots

603
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 1: all over the body. And I looked at the report

604
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: and the report was like four pages in length, and

605
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: one of those pages was the title page, and it

606
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: had nothing really a lot of detail relative to range

607
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: of fire or trajectories in this case. Though this took

608
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: some time, and they had They did both of these cases,

609
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: both Jillian's and Veronica's, the same day. This would have

610
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: been just to give you, guys, an idea of the

611
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: involvement in something like this. This is something that you

612
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: would have been in that autopsy suite all day long

613
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: and there would have been no pulling back from this.

614
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: It would have been a long, arduous, exhausting day for

615
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: the entire staff because there's a lot of detail, and

616
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: plus you've got the added factor of decomposition, and that

617
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: in and of itself obscures many things at autopsy. That's

618
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: why you have to be very careful and take your time.

619
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body back