1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: Body does. But Joseph's gotten more. It's hard to try 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: to kind of understand how people define the word trust 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 1: any longer. It seems as though that ever since I 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: was a child, that there has been this kind of 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: evolution in what the word trust actually means. When I 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: was little, if you were doing something you should not 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: have been doing, there was this perception that you could 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: trust others, even outside of your family, to essentially tell 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: your parents what you had been doing. And that went 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: both ways for other people's kids as well. But trust 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: has kind of taken on a different meaning. I think 12 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: it comes down to this idea of protection. And when 13 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: we turn over, if you will, our precious young children 14 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: to those in authority, and they violate trust, there's something 15 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: very very dark about that. Today we're going to talk 16 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: about that darkness, and we're going to talk about the 17 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: impact that trust placed with the wrong folks had on 18 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: a young lady by the name of Sandra Birchmore. I'm 19 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks, Dave. I've often 20 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: said that you know, as an investigator, if you you 21 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: know your work cases where you kind of get numb 22 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: to it relative to you know, you have two adults 23 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: that get into a fight and they wind up maybe 24 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: killing the other one. Back in the eighties, I remember 25 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: it seemed like night after night I would go on 26 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: so called dry by shooting homicides rival gangs that were 27 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: going after one another. They're involved in this street life 28 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, and there's an inherent risk 29 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: with that. There's an inherent danger with it. But when 30 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: it comes to kids, there's something about it that she 31 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: can never really get numb to. It's like a fresh 32 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: wound that opens up every time for an investigator. And 33 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: in this particular case we're talking, we're talking about a 34 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: young woman who she died as a young woman, but 35 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: this story actually begins a decade earlier, where she was 36 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: involved in an Explorer program. 37 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if everybody knows what the Explorer program is. 38 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: It's an extension of Boy Scouts where it began, but 39 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: it is more in tune with learn about a profession. 40 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. When I was a young person, 41 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: there was an Explorer post that dealt with radio and 42 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 2: television broadcasting, and their professionals volunteered their time and it 43 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: was once a week at night, and you had a 44 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: couple of hours to go down the TV station, radio 45 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: station and you would take part in a class pretty 46 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: much and learn real world applications. They also had one 47 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: for the police and fire and things like that. And 48 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 2: in this particular case, Sandra Birgmore at twelve years old, 49 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: which is about the earliest age you can actually be 50 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: part of an Explorer post, and some it's fourteen, but 51 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: at this particular post, it was twelve. At twelve years old, 52 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: she joined the Explorer Post in Stoton, Massachusetts, which was 53 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: the police department. The Stoton Police Department had an Explorer 54 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: Post and these individuals, young people were able to learn 55 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: about police work investigations, you know, more than just being 56 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: a street cup, learning all the different aspects of law 57 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: enforcement firsthand as a young person. And these posts usually 58 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: have an age group beginning and ending. You know, it's 59 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: twelve to from twelve to eighteen or fourteen. 60 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: To twenty one. 61 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: And in this particular case, Sandra Birchmore was a part 62 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: of this police Explorer post starting at age twelve through 63 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: eighteen six years And think about the difference in ages 64 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 2: of a person when you're twelve years old versus eighteen. 65 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: Holy smokes, yeah, I've had teenagers in my house. There 66 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: you go, I think I begin to think about my daughter, 67 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: my son, and you know, and this is kind of obvious, 68 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: but you know, just the kind of the the trajectory 69 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: of the changes that they go through during that period 70 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: of time, that eighteen year old would not recognize that 71 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: twelve year old now on any level, you don't recognize 72 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: them as a parent. And so and I think that 73 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: one of the kind of dicey areas here is that 74 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: when you have a very young, impressionable child that enters 75 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: into this kind of I don't know, it's it's very weighty. 76 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: You know, you're talking about a police department. There's all 77 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: kinds of stuff there. Yeah, and they go into this 78 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: environment and like it or not, both fire and police. 79 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: It's it's got a real when you're around people, it's 80 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: a very familial kind of thing, you know, because you 81 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: refer to each other as brothers. And so when you 82 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: get kind of adopted into that little tribe, if you're 83 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: going through, say, tough times in your life, that's someplace 84 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: that someone would feel safe and would flee to. And 85 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: once you flee to that kind of environment like that, 86 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: any kind of protections that you might have begin to 87 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of fall, and boy is it it is just 88 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: ripe for the taking when you think about if there's 89 00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: a predator around. 90 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: It, that's what happening is there was more than one. 91 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: Now you're dealing with police officers that are in their 92 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: twenties and thirties. In this particular case, we're going to 93 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: talk about one specific police officer named Matthew Farwell. His 94 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 2: brother was also involved in a few others. But Matthew 95 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: Farwell was a part of the Explorer Post as one 96 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: of the volunteers as a leader there. He also was 97 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: on the police force in Stoton. He was a detective. 98 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: Well mentioned Sandra Burchmore started at the post when she 99 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 2: was twelve years old and remained until she was eighteen. Well, 100 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: what we didn't tell you is how close she got 101 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: with certain members of the post. And I think you 102 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: just talked about that with the familial connection. But you're 103 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 2: talking about a twelve year old girl, and by the way, 104 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: a diminutive person. She was small. She was four foot 105 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 2: ten inches tall. Yeah, this is a this is. 106 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Not wait wait, that's an adulthood. Yes, yes, so she 107 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: would have been even more to me. I mean, just 108 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: you think of and look, I know some people will 109 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: take offense to this. I don't care. It's the idea 110 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: that you know back then. If you think she's diminutive 111 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: as an adult, yeah, she would appear rather fragile. She'd 112 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: probably be mistaken for somebody much younger as a matter 113 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: of fact, Dave. 114 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: Yep, and she was. And Matthew Farewell is six foot four. 115 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: She's four to ten. He's six foot four. He's a 116 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: big man. Yeah, And they develop a relationship and some 117 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: would call it, I would call it grooming. That Matthew 118 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: Farwell began grooming Sandra Birchmore and somewhere in her third 119 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: year of being involved with the Explorer Post, the grooming 120 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: ended and the activity began. That's what is alleged because 121 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: Sandra Birgmore is the reason we're talking about this is 122 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: this young woman who began her experience with police at 123 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: the Explorer Post at twelve years old. At twenty three 124 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: years old and three months pregnant, committed suicide the same week. 125 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: She was researching photographers to take infant baby pictures when 126 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: they're first born and getting a scheduled time so she 127 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: could have that done and then she committed suicide. Supposedly 128 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: it was rule to suicide at first, but Joe, the 129 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: reason we're doing this show today is because it was 130 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: rule to suicide, yeah, at first, but then it changed. Right, 131 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: how do we go from something that is cut and 132 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: dry suicide to anything else? 133 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: Hard to kind of take the measure of it, Dave, 134 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: And it took a while. This investigation, like you stated, 135 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: started in twenty twenty one, and it was when she 136 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: was found in her apartment. And my understanding is is 137 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: that when she was found in her apartment, she had 138 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 1: been down for maybe three days by that time by 139 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: the time they had found her. And just let me 140 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: speak just for a moment about suicide and kind of 141 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: from the medical examiner's perspective, how we view these. First off, 142 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: I will just be very very honest with our friends here, 143 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: even though it is a death investigation once a local 144 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: police department, and in this case, we have to make clear, Dave, 145 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: that her death did not occur in the town in 146 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: which she was involved in the explore post. Her death 147 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: actually occurred in Canton, Massachusetts. And we all know that 148 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: name because we can't seem to get past it because 149 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: in recent months, all we've heard about is the Karen 150 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: Reid case. So you're talking about a death that occurred 151 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: there in that jurisdiction where she had her her home. 152 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: But in general, in very broad strokes, when you're talking 153 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: about suicide investigation, once the police get the indication, many times, 154 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: and I've had this happen, actually, it seems day over 155 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: and over again. Once you make the statement as an 156 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: EMMY investigator or a corner that yeah, this looks like 157 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: it's consistent with a suicide, guess what happens with the detectives. 158 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: Many times they'll say, Okay, well, yeah, we'll leave you 159 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: with this and we'll go ahead and go about our 160 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: business because from a prosecutorial standpoint, there's nothing for them 161 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: to do at that point. Tom, You're not going to 162 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: put the cuffs on anybody. You're not seeking some mysterious 163 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: person that's out there. And so their interest, their interest 164 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: drops off precipitously, and many times the full weight of 165 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: this falls onto the shoulders of the emmy or the 166 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: corner to conduct the investigation. And one of the elements 167 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: that and I'm glad you mentioned this about the let's see, 168 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: I think there was like a stroller the image that 169 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: she had had from ultrasound was actually sitting out on 170 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: the bar in the actual kitchen. She's talking about purchasing 171 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: clothing and doing all these sorts of things, you know, 172 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: for the baby, because she's very excited about. One of 173 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: the things that we do with suicide is we try 174 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,599 Speaker 1: to find an element of intent relative to the individual 175 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: that has taken their life. Obviously, and well, how do 176 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: you do that? Well? For us, one of the things 177 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: we do, first off, we want to find out if 178 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: an individual is suffering from any kind of psychopathology at all. 179 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: Are they currently under the care of psychologist or psychiatrists, 180 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: Are they on any kind of medications that would lend itself? 181 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: Are they being treated for anxiety depression? Also, has there 182 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: ever been a previous attempt at taking their own life? 183 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: Is there any evidence of that on the body, because 184 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: many times I've had people dave that, and this is 185 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: kind of the classic thing that you look for. You 186 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: look at the risk to see if there's old, old 187 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: scars that are consistent with healed healed you know, cut 188 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: marks on their arm that might be kind of superficial. 189 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: They tried once it didn't work. Have they vocalized Here's 190 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: here's kind of the terminology that the psychology psychology types 191 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: like to use. They will say, did the person have 192 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: suicidal ideation? Which means were they thinking about it? The 193 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: next step is was there vocalation with it? And so 194 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: what that means is they're thinking about it and they're 195 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,479 Speaker 1: actually saying it to somebody. So we go to a 196 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: great links as medical legal investigators to try to understand this. 197 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: What's their medical history? Is there anything that we need 198 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: to do to explore to try to find that kernel 199 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: of intent? And I got to tell you, Dave, in 200 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: this particular case, I don't think anything like that existed. Dave. 201 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, I know I've said this to you before, 202 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: but it bears repeating our working supposition as medical legal 203 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: death investigators, and it should be with homicide detectives too. 204 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: But it is that every death, not some deaths, but 205 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: every death, and I'm talking about even people that have 206 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: obvious natural disease, every death we work is a homicide 207 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: until we can prove otherwise. And what I mean by 208 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: that is that until I can until I can scientifically 209 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: verify whether it's per physical examination or history that I'm 210 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: getting from family members, or maybe a more extensive examination 211 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: that is conducted at the morgue. I'm going to assume 212 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: everybody dies at the hand of another because here's the thing. 213 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: Those cases, homicide cases are so highly complex that once 214 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: you cross that threshold into that dwelling, you cannot step 215 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: across that threshold again for the first time. All right, 216 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: you can't repeat that. So you have to make sure 217 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: that you've covered all of your bases upon that initial 218 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: contact at the scene, to make sure you haven't missed anything. 219 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: And day when she was found, it kind of seemed 220 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: like it was probably going to be a suicide at 221 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: that point in time. 222 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned that where Sandra Berchman lived was not 223 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: in the town where she had been a part of 224 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: the police force through their Explorer program that was in Stoton, 225 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: But she lived in a place called Canton. So the 226 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: people on the police force that would have that knew 227 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: her from being in the Explorer post, they wouldn't have 228 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: been involved in the investigation into a suicide, would they. 229 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: No, No, they wouldn't know unless some kind of information 230 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: came up in the course of the investigation that said, well, 231 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: I'll put it to this way. You walk into a 232 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: scene where you will find some kind of collateral information 233 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: at that scene that says, you know, she's received some 234 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: kind of award from this other police department. Trust me, 235 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: that's going to catch the eyes of an investigator that's there. 236 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: And maybe she's got I don't know, maybe she's got 237 00:15:54,120 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: T shirts, maybe they hand out explorer badges. Maybe maybe 238 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: she's got things in her possession that would give you 239 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: an indication that she is really interested in law enforcement. Now, 240 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: you might make a phone call at that point and 241 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: Tom say, hey, look, we've got we're here at a scene. 242 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: We've got this young lady that's deceased, and is she 243 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: one of yours? I mean, you know, because she's got 244 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: all of this stuff from your jurisdiction, they might, you know, 245 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: probe that at that moment in Tom, that's really, you know, 246 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: that's really what you would be looking for. 247 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: And that makes sense. I mean, you're you find somebody 248 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: hanging in a closet or on a doorknob, you would 249 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: think you've got to find out. You know, when Robin Williams, 250 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: the comedian, committed suicide using his belt and the door 251 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: of his closet, his closet doorknob, there was a lot 252 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: of breaking down of how is that possible? 253 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: What happened? You know? 254 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: And and he's a celebrity who had mental uh had issues? 255 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, he did, he had physically. Can I say something 256 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: real quick about that, that report that those investigators did. 257 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: I cannot, for the life of me remember the name 258 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: of that county. It's in the adjacent Greater San Francisco area. 259 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: Is Marin County? I can't remember, But that, arguably, Dave, 260 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: that might be one of the finest medical legal death 261 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: investigator reports I've ever read in my life. It was 262 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: thorough beyond anything you can imagine. So to that point, yeah, yeah, 263 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: and he did he did facilitate his own hanging, you know, 264 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: from you know, from a door knob essentially and using 265 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: a belt in order to do that. And it sounds 266 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: as though that, even though they have not released all 267 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: of the information in this particular case, it sounds as 268 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: though that that might be what they observed when they 269 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: arrived at the scene, Dave. 270 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 2: And it is in Marion County by the way, I 271 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: looked that up while you were talking. Because when when 272 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: you come up on a scene like this and you 273 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: are going to start trying to find out who the 274 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: person is, because you said that it was a couple 275 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: of days between the time that she actually died and 276 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: the time her body was found. Yes, so she would 277 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: have already gone through the processes that you explained in 278 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 2: one of our shows last. 279 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: Week, you know, the postpartum changes. Yeah. 280 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so what stage what would her body be 281 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 2: like after two or three days hanging like that? 282 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: Well, first off, her limbs are going to be flaccid 283 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: by that moment, Tom, and one of the ways that 284 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: could determine she had been down And I'm just talking 285 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: about not merely, I'm not talking about when was the 286 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: last time she was spoken to. I'm just talking about 287 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: what does the body tell us? All right, So if 288 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: they're staying two to three days down range, first off, 289 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: there's a high probability that ruger mortis would either be 290 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: completely dis paid it or easily broken. Okay, So the 291 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: rigidity in her arms after that period of time would 292 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: no longer be there. I mean literally, Dave, you could 293 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: pick her arm up at the elbow and you could 294 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: easily flex it. At that point time, you could open 295 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: her jaw, you know, to inspect a mouth and that 296 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Whereas if it had happened like if 297 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: they had found her within that twenty four hour time frame, 298 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: you'd see the rigidity, but slowly it fades away. And 299 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: here's one of the things. So if you look at 300 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: if you look at her from this perspective with the 301 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: absence of rigidity possibly and then the settling of the 302 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: blood with the post mortem lividity, and the key is here, 303 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: what do we do when we have a body that's 304 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: in a seated position. Well, if you're if you're seated, 305 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: you know on your rear end, the blood is going 306 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: to gravitate to that area. Guess what, It'll be non blanchable. 307 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: So if you pressed skin, that purple discoloration would not disappear. 308 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: So for us when we're looking at a body trying 309 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: to determine how long the body has been down relative 310 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: to post mortem interval, there's no doubt that you would 311 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: see that and you would think as an investigator, Wow, 312 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: she's been down a while. And also at that point 313 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: in time, when you have for that many for that 314 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: period of time, you would sometimes you can pick up 315 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: on a very faint odor. Also, there are these changes 316 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: that occur after say like seventy two hours, you'll begin 317 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: to see the fingertips shrivel and they'll become like dehydrated 318 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: to a certain degree, but only the fingertips. You're not 319 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: going to see it all through the body. And so 320 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: there are just signs that you can tell that they've 321 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: been down longer than just say a couple of hours. 322 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that you try to 323 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: brack at that time, because if you can bracket time. 324 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: And we know that they know some stuff about Sandra, 325 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: that there had been phone calls that were placed where 326 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: she was trying to schedule these these infant photographs. You know, 327 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: she's this is a young lady that's very excited about 328 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: this day. There was there was actually a stroller. You know, 329 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: she'd bought a stroller. You remember this, you know, as 330 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: a dad, I mean, your guts are turning inside out 331 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: and you're terrified, but there's a bit of excitement to it, 332 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: and you're purchasing clothes and diapers and all that stuff 333 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: to get ready. It's one of the finest times of 334 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: my life. I remember being excited, and as well you 335 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: should be. You're celebrating a new life that's going to 336 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: come and you know, but you you marry all of 337 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: that together that circumstantial data, and it paints a picture 338 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: of what was going on at that at those moments 339 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: prior to her death. Here's the thing, Dave, who's going 340 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: to go to all of this trouble if they're going 341 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: to end their life, you know who's going to do 342 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: these things? And so for me, as an em ME 343 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: investigator corner investigator, I'm sitting there thinking this doesn't add up, 344 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: and not to say, you know, and I don't think 345 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: there's a note, but notes for the exception, not the norm. 346 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: People think you're gonna find suicide note. I'd say probably 347 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: two out of ten cases that I worked with suicides 348 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: would you find a note or some kind of scribbling. 349 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: They are, in fact the exception, not the norm. So 350 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: that's not a real good placeholder for you from an 351 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 1: evidentiary standpoint. 352 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: But you mentioned you would try to ascertain what was 353 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: going on in her life at the time, was her 354 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: mental emotional stability, what is she thinking? And based on 355 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 2: what they are seeing, a young woman very excited about 356 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: being pregnant and the thought of having her baby, and 357 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: now she's what appears to be committed suicide. Now are 358 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: they going to start looking from an investigative standpoint, they're 359 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 2: going to look at all of her personal relationships obviously, right, 360 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: that's yes, first place I'm going to start, because we 361 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: got to find out more about her. What could have 362 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: turned her if we believe it's a suicide, what could 363 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 2: have turned her mood so dark when it was so sunshine, 364 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: rainbows and unicorns do this? And yeah, how do you 365 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: find that out? 366 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:17,239 Speaker 1: Are you? 367 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: I mean really, are we actually going to be picking 368 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 2: up the phone going through the rolodex? What are we 369 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: going to do? 370 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: Well? I got to tell you the first place I 371 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: always start. Yeah, I like to talk to the immediate family. 372 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: But Dave, I got to tell you not everybody talks 373 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: to their immediate family. Now, who do you spend the 374 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: most time with if you're single and you're working, that's 375 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: a big clue. Who do you spend the most time with? Well, 376 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: it's not your mom and dad most of the time. 377 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: It's not siblings, because you know, once you once you 378 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: become an adult, if you have siblings, you kind of 379 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: go your separate ways to live your life. It's going 380 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: to be people you work with. And yes, she might 381 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: have girlfriends. You know that she interacts with some male friends. Perhaps, 382 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: but if you are working full time. Think about how 383 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: much time all of us spend at work. Now. They 384 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: say you can't choose your family, but many times you 385 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: can't choose the individuals you work with. Either they're hired 386 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: independent of you. But there are the certain relationships at 387 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: work where you begin to feel confident with the people 388 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: that you talk with that you can find information in 389 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: them that you're not going to call up a sibling 390 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: necessarily that you only see a couple of times a year. 391 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: I go One of the things I always do is 392 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: I try to track down where this individual work and 393 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: try to find somebody at work that'll have a conversation 394 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: with me. I'll start with like a supervisor most of 395 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: the time, because supervisors can tell you a lot. You know, 396 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: first off, they know if you've been sicking out, they 397 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: know what your job performance is like. They know what 398 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: your attitude is like while you're there. Are you angry 399 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: or you easily frustrated? Have you, you know, threatened to 400 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: do harm to anybody in the office. And then the 401 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: people that shares the space immediately adjacent to you, they're 402 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: going to see. The thing about it is, if you 403 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: work in one of these cubicle type of environments. Isn't 404 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: it amazing the conversations you can hear are going on 405 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: next to you, you know, I mean that's you know, 406 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: it's that kind of thing. And you have to begin 407 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: to kind of in dwell that space that these individuals lived, 408 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: their their living space, if you will, and go back 409 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: and retroactively try to piece together all of this stuff. 410 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: You know, you do that if they have physicians. I 411 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: love to call physicians up, and I try to be 412 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: very gentle when I do this, because people really develop 413 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: great relationships with physicians. And you drop the bomb on 414 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: a physician like that and tell them that their patient 415 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: is dead. You try to be as gentle as you 416 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: can with them, but you want to try to get 417 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: information from them. Now. Sometimes physicians won't give it up 418 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: because they're afraid of get ensued and out of that group, 419 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: psychiatrists are the worst. You have to issue a subpoena 420 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: many times, but I have had and they'll say, sure, sure, 421 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: I'll tell you everything. I'll give you what she's been 422 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: diagnosed with or whatever. But there's no indication of any 423 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: of this kind of thing here. As a matter of fact, 424 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: what we're hearing about is kind of a bright and 425 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: cheery affect, and it's a head scratcher when you're an investigator. 426 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: So how do you put two and two together where 427 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: you've got this young woman that's in her home that 428 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 1: has apparently hung herself, but yet she's living this life 429 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: where she's excited about what the future holes Dave. 430 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 2: At what point, Joe, do you look at the surroundings 431 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 2: and say this doesn't look right. Was there anything in 432 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: the surroundings around this supposed suicide that stood out? 433 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: Well? First off, she is not what you refer to 434 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: as a Let me phrase this so that folks understand. 435 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: She is not what is referred to as a classic 436 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: suspension hanging where you have that hard point where where 437 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: an individual is going to tie off a rope or 438 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 1: some type of ligature and then kind of free swing 439 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: in the air. Kinds of classic kind of hanging type 440 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: of thing. We're talking about a supported hanging and a 441 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: lot of people, I think I've had people in classes 442 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: that have asked me, how in the world can somebody 443 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: do this? Well, they can do it. I've had people 444 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: hang themselves on the side of hospital beds in psychiatric 445 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: wards where they just essentially wrap something around their neck 446 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: they tie it off and they just sit down and 447 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: then go to sleep, because you're cutting off your carrotids 448 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: at that point in time, and it's more of a 449 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: it's more you're depriving the brain of oxygen, is what's 450 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: essentially happening at this point in time. It's not a 451 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: matter with hanging like this where it's kind of supported 452 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: and they just kind of lean into it and sit down. 453 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: It's not one of these events where there's a violent drop, 454 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, like in an like an old Western movie, 455 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, where they drop through the floor of the 456 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: gallows and that sort of thing. It's not like that. 457 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: There's not a level of violence there that comes along 458 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: with this. This is kind of a uh, slowly kind 459 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: of sinking down. I think many people think, you know, 460 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: how is it that you can resist the urge to 461 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: take this thing off of your neck? And that's the 462 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: big question, isn't it How could you have done this? 463 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: And also do these injuries actually marry up with the 464 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: idea of this being self inflicted or is it something 465 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: a bit more ominous? Dave, I'm not going to say 466 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: I didn't see this coming, because this case has been 467 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: mentioned to me. Well, actually it was mentioned to me 468 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: by some friends that I have in the I guess 469 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: probably a year and a half two years ago, and 470 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: I took a look at it at that tom Something 471 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: just didn't add up with it, and there were suspicions 472 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: that were floating around. You even mentioned that day. I 473 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: think that's that's a good place to start with this 474 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: isn't it was? There were phone calls that were made 475 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: to her being discovered dead, correct. 476 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: You know I mentioned at the very beginning that she 477 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: was involved in the explorer post at the police station 478 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: there in Stoughton, and that's a big part of this story. 479 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: And she did have a relationship with some of the 480 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: adult men that were volunteers that were part of that 481 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: explorer post from about the age of fifteen. Now she 482 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: was there when she was twelve. When she was fifteen, 483 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: she starts having a child cannot have a sexual relationship 484 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: with an adult. They can be raped by an adult, 485 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: They cannot have sexual relations with an adult. So I 486 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: am misspeaking every time I say that, and I apologize. 487 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: She groomed and raped by allegedly, allegedly, and when her 488 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: suicide is being investigated, they start peeling the curtain back 489 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: to find out more about her, and they find out, oh, 490 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 2: wait a minute, she was really involved in the Explorer post. 491 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: And wait a minute. Two weeks before her death, the 492 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: Stodent Police Department got a phone call from an anonymous 493 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: person who said that that Sandra is pregnant. 494 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: And that. 495 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: One of the police officers is the father. And that's 496 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: what began the investigation explosion. And yet Sandra Birchman Birchmore 497 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: rather was three months pregnant when she died. Matthew Farwell, 498 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: who's thirty eight now, was the man that was accused 499 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: of impressignating her. And so they start that investigation, and 500 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: they find out that a number of police officers in 501 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: the Stoton Police Office, officers in Stoton Police Department were 502 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: involved in inappropriate relationships with individuals in the community, and 503 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: that it was a big investigation into the police department. 504 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: And again you had this young woman's suicide that started, 505 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: you know, that really opened the door for the investigation. 506 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: And that phone call to the police department that says, hey, 507 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: this guy is putting hands on her, that was the 508 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 2: part that really got their attention. I think I mentioned 509 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: this earlier. As an adult woman of twenty three Sander 510 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: Birchmore is four foot ten and Matthew Farwell is six 511 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: foot four. Putting hands on her at that size, that's 512 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: that's shrek. You know, that's a big person compared to 513 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: her dominiuative stature. She's three months pregnant, and now they're 514 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: looking into all of her relationships with all of the men. 515 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: All of the men now that are involved in that 516 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 2: Explorer post are now exposed and they're digging through the 517 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: department Joe, all to find out what really happened. Meanwhile, 518 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: her family, Sandra Birchmar's family would not They're like, there's 519 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: no way that she was excited about being pregnant. There's 520 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: no way this happened the way you're claiming it did. 521 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 2: There's a cover up going on. So they hired their 522 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: own pathologists, not just any pathologists. They're filing a lawsuit, 523 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 2: So they hired former New York pathologists, a guy who's 524 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: one of the biggest names in America, Michael Boden. Doctor 525 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: Michael Boden was hired by the family. 526 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: Joe. Yeah, and listen, if you're there, there's a couple 527 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: of people out there that if if you're seeking to 528 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: illuminate a situation relatives to forensic pathology. I think that 529 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: probably doctor Boden is at the top of the heap. 530 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: And of course we all know he has famously been 531 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: involved in the examination of the Jeffrey Epstein case. And 532 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: I have to tell you this is not too dissimilar 533 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: when we begin to think about the mechanism that is 534 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: involved in this, we're talking about a hanging, Dave. And listen, 535 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, with doctor Boden, he's got a lot of 536 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: miles on the tires relative to how many of these 537 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: cases he's seen over the years. Because not only did 538 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: he work as at OCME, the Office Chief Medical Examiner 539 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: in New York, he's also the state Medical Examiner for 540 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: the State of New York. He's seen a thing or 541 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: two during his time. And let me kind of break 542 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: this down to you. Now, we don't know the specifics 543 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: at this point in time, but one of the things 544 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: that you look for, if our friends will just kind 545 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: of think about hanging. When you think about a classic hanging, 546 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: a ligature is placed around the neck and because of 547 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: the distribution of weight, the body is literally pulling down 548 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: on the ligature. If it's anchored to like a doorknob. 549 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 1: Like we've mentioned, as it pulls down, that noose forms 550 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: like a gigantic tear drop in the air. Okay, just 551 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: think about it. Okay, where it's it's you have the apex, 552 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: it's up at like the twelve o'clock position, and as 553 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: a result of that, the ligature marks themselves will run 554 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: up behind the ears. Okay, because the weight it's being 555 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: pulled down. I'm wondering, just wondering if when they conducted 556 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: this autopsy. First off, I want to know, was the 557 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: literature removed from her neck at the scene. That's a problem. 558 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: We have kind of a standing rule that if you 559 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: find a body that is suspended, and remember what do 560 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: we say about her, that she had been down two 561 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: to three days, you have no reason to remove the 562 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: literature at that point. In tom there's no reason. You 563 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: literally you go to the anchor point and you cut 564 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: the anchor point. You don't cut it away from the 565 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: neck because you want to see the body in this 566 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: initial configuration at the morgue. Most of the time, a 567 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: physician is not going to be at the scene. It's 568 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: going to be an emmy investigator and they will document 569 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: it photographically and they'll bring those in the images. They'll 570 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: have those images transmitted to the pathologist. They'll be able 571 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: to see how the body looked there. But there's something 572 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: about being able to appreciate that literature slash noose around 573 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: the neck in its pristine form. You don't want to 574 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: remove it. Now we've got this idea of the tear 575 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: drop right that's going upward and this form this forms 576 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: something called tinting feature, like a pup tint okay, so 577 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: that when you remove the ligature, you'll see these furrows 578 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: that run behind the ears that go upward, and it's 579 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: generally kind of low on the neck on the anterior side. However, 580 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: when you're looking at a ligature strangulation and they have 581 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: mentioned the term strangulation, we don't know if the strangulation 582 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: was facilitated by hands or if it was facilitated by 583 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: a ligature. Those marks, if it is a ligature and 584 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: it's a ligature strangulation, are going to run parallel to 585 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: the shoulders, not vertical in orientation, but parallel, so it 586 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: literally goes back and the furrow looks completely different. I'm 587 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: wondering if they missed that at autopsy. And the other 588 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: thing is if this was a manual strangulation where hands 589 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: were actually placed on her neck. Going back to what 590 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: Boden had talked to about with Epstein, one of the 591 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: things that his bone of contention with Epstein is that 592 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: the hywood was fractured, and highwood fractures generally only occur 593 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: with manual strangulation. So how thoroughly did they dissect the 594 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: neck at autopsy, which is something that you would as 595 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, not only would you dissect the neck, 596 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: you would preserve the organs of the neck. That means 597 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: that the layernix comes out, you examine it at autopsy, 598 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: you save the hyroid. You do not, I mean do 599 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 1: not send it to the funeral home with the body. 600 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: But if they're thinking that this is a suicide, that 601 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: might be gone. So doctor Biden might only have photographs 602 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: to refer to the other thing you're going to be 603 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: looking for, or when the layer of skin is reflected 604 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: and you begin to look for the hemorrhages, dave in 605 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: a soft tissue of the neck. If you have like 606 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: a manual strangulation, those those areas of hemorrhage will be 607 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: very diffuse because it covers a wider area than just 608 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: that narrow little furrow. Well, something missed in the soft 609 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: tissues of the neck. Relative to that, there's something that 610 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 1: is telling doctor Boden, I would imagine scientifically, at least 611 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: something he can there's a proverbial nail. He can hang 612 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: his hat on his intellectual hat. And because he's sticking 613 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: his he's sticking his neck out relative to this. He's 614 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: calling this a homicide. He's not saying well, he's not 615 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: wishing away. He's saying this is a homicide. And not 616 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: only is he saying it, the family is taking this 617 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: as gospel and they're pursuing a civil action in this case. 618 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: And that's kind of how all this, how all this 619 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: kicked up, And of course this is going to draw 620 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: the eye of the of the of the FBI, and 621 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: well the chief at least the chief of police in Stoton. 622 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 2: She said, I'm not a forensic pathologist. I'm not a scientist, 623 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 2: but reading doctor Boden's letter, she's just mortified by what 624 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 2: she's reading. That what he said took place. And that's 625 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 2: where you were talking about that investigation. Granted he's a 626 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 2: hired hand by the family. They're trying to find out 627 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 2: what happened to their daughter, their you know, their loved 628 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 2: one that they didn't believe committed suicide. And doctor Bodden 629 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,720 Speaker 2: mentioned Joe beyond the physical examination. He mentioned in his paper, 630 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 2: the investigation that was done by the Stoton Police Department 631 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 2: into the life of this young woman. And you know 632 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 2: when we were talking about how happy she was about 633 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 2: being pregnant and all of those things, you know that 634 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 2: she was doing giant lineup of a photographer that all 635 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 2: came from Stoton Police Department from their investigation. 636 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,399 Speaker 1: So you know, so this is my question. I think 637 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: from an investigative standpoint, this actually took place in Canton, 638 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: and I'm just wondering. I'm just wondering. And this is 639 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: just me thinking out loud, what level of contact is 640 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: there between Stotent and Canton? Because that troubles me. This 641 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 1: is another reason this troubles me, Dave. I've over the 642 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: course of my career, I've done I don't just instruct 643 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: in college, Okay, I'm not just a college professor. I 644 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: teach at police Academy and I also teach investigators. I 645 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: have sat through and I have administered instruction and the 646 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: investigation of stage suicides. Well, David, that's what That's what 647 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: really gives this such a dark, sinister turn, is that 648 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: when you've got a civilian that does a and we've 649 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: covered them before on bodybacks, Dave, A staged suicide. I 650 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,840 Speaker 1: think we did one very recently. I forgive me, I 651 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: can't remember which one it was, but we have done it, Dave. 652 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: If you're a police officer, a detective, an investigator, you're 653 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: sitting through a class, and these classes can last maybe 654 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: one two days, sixteen hours of instruction. Perhaps, Hey, what 655 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: did you learn in that class? Because let me tell 656 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: you what the FBI is doing now. The FBI will 657 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: have literally gone back into his training records. Let this 658 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. We'll go into his 659 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: training records and they will look at every school he's 660 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: ever attended, any kind of professional training he's had. And 661 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: it's something that cops hear about, but it's not necessarily 662 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: something that everyone is trained in. He's a detective, so 663 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: and it's a small department. My thought is is that 664 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: in a department to small, you're not going to have 665 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: like an individual homicide division. You're going to have a 666 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: what they're referred to as a crimes against person. So 667 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:04,959 Speaker 1: he would handle assaults, battery, homicides, abuse cases, that sort 668 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: of thing, anything that's a crime against a person as 669 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: opposed to a property crime, which might be a theft 670 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: or something like that. So they're very broad ranging, you know, 671 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: practitioners in this environment. I wonder what kind of training 672 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: he's had, Has he had any exposure to this whatsoever. 673 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: The FBI likes him for this, I mean, they have 674 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: charged him now, and their charges are very interesting the 675 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: way they're worded, because you know, the Feds, the FEDS 676 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: don't have and even the US Attorney General for that 677 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: district when he gave his press conference, he actually alluded 678 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: to the fact that the Feds don't have a homicide charge, 679 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: and they don't they don't investigate homicide is a state charge. 680 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: They are investigating this case from the perspective of he 681 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,359 Speaker 1: killed a witness. Think about that just a second. That 682 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: goes to that goes to like the very essence constitutionally 683 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about civil rights, as you know, 684 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: you're depriving somebody of their ability to communicate with the 685 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 1: cops if they're going to give testimony against them, So 686 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: you're going to eliminate somebody. And plus FBI generally investigates 687 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 1: when it comes to policing. They will investigate any kind 688 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: of malfeasans that's going on inside of a department. And 689 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: that's the other troubling thing. You think they're going to 690 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: come in to investigate a single cop that's having a 691 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: sexual relationship that started as a minor. Why didn't it? 692 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: And that's that's my question here. Why didn't it just 693 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,479 Speaker 1: stop with the Massachusetts State Police? Why was this kicked 694 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: up to a federal level? Because anytime you get to 695 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: that level where you're drawing, you're drawing the eye of 696 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: you know, the all seeing eye and think about the 697 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: movie Lord of the you know that big eye going 698 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: when you draw the attention of the FBI. They're doing 699 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: other stuff, trust me. But yet this one case that 700 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: is a suicide draws their attention so that they're invested 701 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: in the investigation. Dave, I think, in my estimation, this 702 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: is merely the stream that they're going to pull that 703 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: could perhaps unravel the entire sweater. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 704 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: and this is body packs