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Speaker 1: Welcome Attrillians.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric bell Cheerness.

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Speaker 1: We're almost there. It's almost twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but is it.

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Speaker 1: But before we do anything about twenty twenty five, we

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Speaker 1: have to do a year in review episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially this year. It was unbelievabe.

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Speaker 2: Up, this is the most interesting, exciting, best year ever

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Speaker 2: for ETFs. I'm just saying that right now.

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Speaker 3: There's never been a better year ever. Twenty twenty one

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Speaker 3: was right up there. This was better.

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Speaker 2: This is remember that movie as good as it gets. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is as good as it gets. So everybody, just

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Speaker 2: take a deep breath, savor it.

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Speaker 3: It just can't be this good every year.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that makes me really worried about twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: but right now maybe feeling Okay.

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Speaker 2: Listen, the key to life is to enjoy the good

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Speaker 2: times and don't have your mind somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, live in the moment. I like it.

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Speaker 1: So to help us process the moments that made up

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Speaker 1: the year, we're going to be joined by Vildona Hirich

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Speaker 1: of Bloomberg News. She's a cross asset reporter, also a

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Speaker 1: frequent guest on Trillians. Todd Rosenbluth, an ETF analyst at Vetify,

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Speaker 1: also a frequent guest on Trains and rounding out our panel,

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Speaker 1: Athanasio ser Vegas, an analyst with Eric at Bloomberg Intelligence,

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Speaker 1: this time on Trillions a Year to Remember Dona Todd, Athan,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Trillians. Nice to see you, Thanks for

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Speaker 1: having us.

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Speaker 4: It's great to be back.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, we've got a format for this round robin.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go around. We're gonna hear everybody suggest a

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Speaker 1: theme that they want to talk about that they think

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Speaker 1: distinguishes this year. Athan, you're in London right now. Good

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Speaker 1: to see you on our screen. Talk to us about

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Speaker 1: what is your number one theme for the year.

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Speaker 5: Oh, it's I guess the most obvious, but probably the

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Speaker 5: most important, and that's just record flows US past the

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Speaker 5: trillion and inflows. I think we just have to appreciate

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Speaker 5: that number, right, Like when you say a trillion in

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Speaker 5: inflows this year, I think it was like high nine

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Speaker 5: hundreds and twenty twenty one. Obviously we had the market

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Speaker 5: participated in that, but what I thought was even more fascinating. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: so trillion in the US, but every region hit a

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Speaker 5: record this year. Europe Canada, Asia Pacific. So it's just

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Speaker 5: this amazing. What I love about the ETF is that

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Speaker 5: it's just hitting all over the world. It's like transcending geography.

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Speaker 5: So that I think was by far the most Probably

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Speaker 5: the biggest thing to take away from this is that's

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Speaker 5: just been a record all over the world.

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Speaker 2: And let me add to that with some numbers. Eight

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Speaker 2: and I agree, that's the story of the year. The

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Speaker 2: record was nine hundred and ten billion, give a ticket

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Speaker 2: called a billion depending on what data service you ask,

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Speaker 2: So a trillion is ninety you know, almost ten percent

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Speaker 2: over the record obviously, but here's also something interesting. If

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Speaker 2: you look globally, as Athan was alluding to, the assets

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Speaker 2: went from at eleven trillion to fifteen trillion. That is

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Speaker 2: a thirty two percent growth rate for an industry that's

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Speaker 2: thirty plus years old. Now, the growth rate when ETF

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Speaker 2: started out was twenty five percent because it was small

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Speaker 2: assets easy to grow those numbers when you're small. The

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Speaker 2: next decade was seventeen percent, and so we're predicting ten

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Speaker 2: percent a year going forward to get to thirty five

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Speaker 2: trillion in twenty thirty five. Well, thirty two percent is

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Speaker 2: so beyond what I would ever assume now of that

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Speaker 2: thirty two percent number, about four tenths is from the flows,

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Speaker 2: six tenths is from the market, So the market won't

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Speaker 2: be this good. As I said, this is as good

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Speaker 2: as it gets probably, but the flows, being that big

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Speaker 2: of a contributor, is really strong. That thirty two percent

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Speaker 2: number again astonishing if you had asked me again. We

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Speaker 2: predict ten percent a year going forward, so thirty two

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Speaker 2: is ridiculous.

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Speaker 5: If there's something can add to that too, just at

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Speaker 5: the issuer level, right, Yeah, while it's a record for

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Speaker 5: the whole industry, it's not just Black Rock and Vanguard,

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Speaker 5: but like seventy percent of the firms have had their

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Speaker 5: best year ever this year, so it's the breath is

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Speaker 5: winding out. So you have several issuers all hitting records

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Speaker 5: this year, which I thought was also really impressive.

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Speaker 2: And do you want to know, I'm gonna I'm it's

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Speaker 2: gonna quiz you guys, what percentage of ETFs in the US.

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Speaker 2: There's thirty eight hundred, what percent saw inflows this year?

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Speaker 2: Get it between five percent and I'll give you a prize.

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Speaker 2: I'll go with eighty seventy five sixty six, So you

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Speaker 2: don't get the prize, but I was the prize, one

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Speaker 2: of the one of those gold coins that Todd brought

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Speaker 2: I was gonna give you.

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Speaker 3: We haven't even had a chance to introduce what I

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Speaker 3: brought it.

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Speaker 1: Todd. I noticed that you brought some gold coins, chocolate

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Speaker 1: gold coins, trying to sway favor.

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Speaker 4: Listen, I don't think there's a judge and jury on this.

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Speaker 4: The audience is going to decide which of us does

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Speaker 4: the best job.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna sample your the chocolate you should.

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Speaker 4: So this is an early Honkka present for those that

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Speaker 4: can't see this very visual podcast. I have a basket

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Speaker 4: of delt chocolate covered coins.

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Speaker 1: You talked about everything as baskets when you're in the

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Speaker 1: ATF world. This is just a little bag of chocolate.

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Speaker 3: It is when it's closed up, it is a basket.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Is that Is that a store of value? It is?

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 1: There's tangible diminishing because I'm eating the chocolate.

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Speaker 4: There is tangibility behind this. But I would note these

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Speaker 4: come from Trader Joe's not a sponsor, I don't think.

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Speaker 4: But they're called coins of the world because we are

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Speaker 4: taking it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Todd, let's do you next, what's your your theme

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Speaker 1: of the year.

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Speaker 4: Well, mine piggybacking on what Athan said, but it's VU

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Speaker 4: crossing the one hundred billion dollar marked with assets for

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Speaker 4: or inflows for one individual ETF and IVV, which actually

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Speaker 4: got passed by VU in terms of total assets briefly

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Speaker 4: had sixty billion dollars. That would have been a new

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Speaker 4: record on its own if it wasn't for Vanguard five

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Speaker 4: hundred ETF. So those two ETFs just setting a record

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Speaker 4: is tremendous, is a great sign. Most investors probably start

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Speaker 4: their their ETF journey with a core S and P

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Speaker 4: five hundred based products, so that I think that sets

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Speaker 4: the stage for the next thirty plus years for people

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Speaker 4: who are going to add additional products. So one hundred

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Speaker 4: billion dollars sixty billion dollars, that's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Think about that.

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Speaker 2: That's two billion dollars a week into one fund. Two

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Speaker 2: billion for a firm after five years.

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Speaker 3: On the market. Is good.

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Speaker 2: So Vanguard again, we just get so bored of Vanguard,

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Speaker 2: we get numb to it. But the numbers they put

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Speaker 2: down are still just absolutely astonishing. Vanguard as a whole

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Speaker 2: company is taking in a billion a day into their ETFs,

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Speaker 2: VU at one hundred. Again, that's doubling a record. I

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Speaker 2: had the meme of Wilt Chamberlain hold up that one hundred,

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Speaker 2: which to me, this is as hard to think this

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Speaker 2: will get broken, you know, like Wilt Chamberlain's record. The

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Speaker 2: only ETF I could see doing it is VU again,

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Speaker 2: but absolutely extraordinary. And it reminds us that as much

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Speaker 2: as we give attention to this sort of hot sauce,

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Speaker 2: shiny objects stuff, some of us most tooche no names, yeah, Eric,

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Speaker 2: the bulk of the blob of money still goes to

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Speaker 2: cheap beta que beta is.

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Speaker 1: What is the margin between VU and the runner up

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Speaker 1: and it's runner up?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's current runner up right now is IVV, which

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Speaker 4: is roughly sixty billion dollars.

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Speaker 2: Now it's fifty four, okay, so it's fifty billion dollars.

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Speaker 3: It's double the number two basically, I mean that's it's insane.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Why well, mostly because Vanguard's brand for fifty years has

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Speaker 2: been cheap, so they have this strong brand, trusted brand.

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Speaker 2: They're a boy scout in an industry that's seen a

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Speaker 2: lot of corruption. Number two, it's dirt cheap. Three basis

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Speaker 2: points for the entire SMP the S and P kicks

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Speaker 2: so much butt and to get that for like basically

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Speaker 2: no fee and the frictionlessness of it. You just click

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Speaker 2: a button. You own the entire us capitalism in one shot.

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Speaker 2: That's why I'm so bo bearish on this direct indexing

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Speaker 2: and tokenization that it's the best, that's the deal of

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Speaker 2: the century. You're not going to disrupt that.

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Speaker 3: For a while.

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Speaker 4: But to me again, I got a reporter on an

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Speaker 4: editor in the room. To me, the story is in

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Speaker 4: VU over IVV by doubling. It's that both of them

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Speaker 4: crossed the fifty billion dollar mark.

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Speaker 3: So that's it. It's been a success.

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Speaker 1: I'm going tension todd like, you know, let's talk about tension.

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Speaker 3: That's a little too kumbaya. I'm with you.

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Speaker 1: Where's where was Spy on that list?

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Speaker 2: By the way, Well, okay, so Spy has these big

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Speaker 2: decembers because it taxles Harving. So it's rising quickly. It's

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Speaker 2: number five with thirty billion, but by the end of

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Speaker 2: the month it could be fifty sixty. It's possible. It's

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Speaker 2: VU Spy IVV all above the last year's record. I

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Speaker 2: called them three amigos because they're like always they're like

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Speaker 2: the three that are tracking the S and P. But

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Speaker 2: I could see that, but then SPY would lose some

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Speaker 2: of that in the first quarter because it tax has

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Speaker 2: harvest thing. But okay, but by the way, one thing

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Speaker 2: to watch next year, VU and IVV, probably both around

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Speaker 2: the same time, are going to pass by then it's

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Speaker 2: like which one of those two will be the new king.

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Speaker 2: I think VU separates itself in the year after that,

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Speaker 2: So I think two years from now we're having VU as.

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Speaker 3: The the undisputed king.

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Speaker 1: That'll be a big moment.

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Speaker 3: Black Rock's not gonna let that happen easily though.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, tensin fil done well.

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Speaker 6: I was going to add to this, you know, list

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Speaker 6: of great things for ETFs overall, which is that there

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Speaker 6: were five hundred and thirty nine active ETF launches, which

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Speaker 6: is eighty percent of the overall and it was a

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Speaker 6: year of record launches, right, so active, It was a

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Speaker 6: big year for active.

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Speaker 3: Is that your stat because no, it's not. It should be.

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Speaker 3: I was you should use that.

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Speaker 6: I have some really good other stats.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, yeah, how about that'll be mine. Six hundred

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Speaker 2: and sixty launches. That's record launches, Joel eighty percent of

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Speaker 2: them active. The reason launches matter, and it's part of

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Speaker 2: our support for the thirty five trillion prediction, is that

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Speaker 2: the more launches you have, the more good ideas you have.

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Speaker 2: If everybody is here launching products, one of those or

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Speaker 2: two of those is going to be the next big idea.

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Speaker 2: So the innovation factor is at a record pace. And

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Speaker 2: this year we have an interesting group of big names

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Speaker 2: coming in. You know, Phil Back said ETFs go Hollywood.

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Speaker 3: I agree.

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Speaker 2: We had Noriel Rubini launch a ETF, Tom Lee Rick

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Speaker 2: Reader late in twenty three but close enough, Jeremy Grantham,

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Speaker 2: and this Treasury Secretary Scott the Scent is supposed to

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Speaker 2: have an ETF coming out, but he might withdraw because

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Speaker 2: he's Treasury secretary, but he was going to launch one.

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Speaker 2: And I think we could see Bill Ackman at some

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Speaker 2: point launch one.

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Speaker 3: Here's the deal.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was a quote in the nineties Michael

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Speaker 2: Jordan was asked about like Utah and this other team. Oh,

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Speaker 2: you're scared it UTA. He's like, look, you could hype

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Speaker 2: them up. Still got to come through Chicago. Still got

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Speaker 2: to come through Chicago. If you want a ring badass, right,

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Speaker 2: that's ETFs. You want the assets you want, flows you want,

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Speaker 2: customers got to come through ETFs, still got to come

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Speaker 2: through ETF. So everyone's going to have to come through

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Speaker 2: ETFs for the most part, minus maybe some hedge funds

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Speaker 2: or private equity if they want to be where the

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Speaker 2: people are.

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Speaker 4: When you said big names, I thought you were talking

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Speaker 4: about acid managers, I mean those big individual names. But MFS,

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Speaker 4: which launched the first mutual fund ever, or has the

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Speaker 4: oldest mutual fund entered the ETF marketplace a week or

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Speaker 4: so ago, oak Mark, which is a proven manager, so

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Speaker 4: it's hard to count. In fact, I'm not sure I

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Speaker 4: can even name an active manager that doesn't have in

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Speaker 4: the ETF presence, either directly or from a subadvisories.

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Speaker 6: I can name one Ron Baron, and they're thinking about it.

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Speaker 4: Well about time.

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Speaker 6: Yeah that's a fifty fifty some billion matager.

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Speaker 4: You know, you earn yourself a gold coin, Thank you

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Speaker 4: so much.

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Speaker 2: MFS interesting because they launched the first ever mutual fund

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Speaker 2: back in like nineteen twenty three or something. So for

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Speaker 2: them to finally, you know, come in is I think.

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Speaker 2: I think everybody is pretty much surrendered at this point.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple hold out's no doubt, but Morgan Stanley

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Speaker 2: to me was the big one.

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Speaker 3: That was last year.

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Speaker 1: All right, Vildan, if that was your your that was

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Speaker 1: my extra nonstat stat bring the hammer. Let's hear the

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Speaker 1: real one.

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Speaker 6: Okay. So it was a really big gear for levered

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Speaker 6: single stock ETFs. I can't believe they haven't come up yet.

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Speaker 6: This is the hot sauce or the super spicy hot sauce,

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Speaker 6: the Ghost Pepper hot sauce.

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Speaker 3: Right, well, they're all flavors.

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Speaker 2: The Ghost Pepper is the two X micro strategy because

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Speaker 2: that broke the volatility record. It's the two x micro strategy.

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Speaker 2: JROL has a volatility of run.

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Speaker 3: Three hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: That's a rolling twenty year t QQQ, which is triple leverage.

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Speaker 2: QUES is a fifth of that, so it's five times

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Speaker 2: more volatile than three xq's think about.

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Speaker 1: That's the Ghost Pepper's like a new strain of ghost.

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Speaker 6: Well, to step back, there's two of them, right, there's

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Speaker 6: two of them. There's there's one from Defiance, there's one

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Speaker 6: from Tuttle and Rex Chairs and they were so big

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Speaker 6: that they were growing by billions in like days basically,

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Speaker 6: where at one point I think Tuttle's was over three

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Speaker 6: point five billion dollars, and that was partly because micro

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Speaker 6: Strategy going up so much post election, but also people

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Speaker 6: are adding tons of money. But then overall for levered

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Speaker 6: single stock ETFs, we had forty five new launches, which

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Speaker 6: is a record, although they've only really been in the

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Speaker 6: US market for a couple of years, but forty five

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Speaker 6: new ones. Now we're starting to see fee wars there

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Speaker 6: as well.

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Speaker 3: That's crazy.

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Speaker 6: So it's really it's just I think that was one

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Speaker 6: of the really big stories of the year.

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Speaker 2: At the beginning of this year, single stock lever gtfs

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Speaker 2: had one billion dollars one point three they have twenty

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Speaker 2: now and like an NVDL two x, Navidia's six billion,

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Speaker 2: that's will ryan from granite shares. That generates like fifty

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Speaker 2: million a year in revenue for them because these all

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Speaker 2: charge one percent, so these are lottery tickets for the issuers.

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Speaker 2: And not only that, Let's say you get a little

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Speaker 2: bit of flows like I don't know, one hundred million,

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Speaker 2: and you're in a stock like Navidia or micro Strategy

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Speaker 2: two x, the asset accumulation starts to grow even if

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Speaker 2: you get no new flows. So the fact that the

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Speaker 2: stocks are going up a lot. These managers are getting

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Speaker 2: paid even with no new customers. It's it's really gonna

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Speaker 2: draw a lot more uh competition. Now we got uh part.

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Speaker 2: The guy was gonna call them parlay shares, whereas you go,

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Speaker 2: you get two x coin plus.

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Speaker 3: Two x Navidia, two x m M micro.

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Speaker 2: Strategy plus two x u Tesla, so you could like

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Speaker 2: match these up. And then they have ones that battle

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Speaker 2: each other, so they got battle shares and like parlay shares,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna get crazy.

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Speaker 3: Cotrol.

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Speaker 6: This is going to yeah when they launch.

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Speaker 2: I know from a guy who likes the GARP. The

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Speaker 2: garb bts you both, you guys, listen and tom this is.

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Speaker 4: Look, there's a reason one hundred billion dollars went into

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Speaker 4: one ETF because people like simple, low cost boring.

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Speaker 3: That's why we.

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Speaker 2: See in the team sometimes it's no industry for old

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Speaker 2: analysts droll, Tod and tom Athan. They're they got like

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Speaker 2: they like the large cap growth at a reasonable price stuff.

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Speaker 2: They this is all like crazy to them.

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Speaker 3: And I understand that.

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Speaker 2: That said, I think a lot of this is a

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Speaker 2: result of the boringness of people's core. The more you

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Speaker 2: just marry passive and you're like, oh, I'll just wait

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Speaker 2: thirty years. The more you're like, all right, well, I

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Speaker 2: don't want to sit there and watch paint try for

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Speaker 2: thirty years. I want to have a little fun. We'm

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Speaker 2: not going to mess around with some you know, large

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Speaker 2: cat manager because I already owned those stocks. I want

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Speaker 2: something really crazy, something to get my juices flowing. And

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Speaker 2: that's why I think hot Sauce is an ironic byproduct

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Speaker 2: of the rise of boring passive.

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Speaker 1: Build on it. When you take away micro Strategy and Nvidio,

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Speaker 1: what was the next single stock etf that Tesla?

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Speaker 6: Definitely, Well, you want something the.

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Speaker 1: Whole suite, right, It's just like anything that can pop.

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Speaker 6: That moves a lot, Yes, which is why it was

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Speaker 6: so interesting that somebody filed. Actually I think two issuers

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Speaker 6: filed for Berkshire Hathway, which barely moves, but they filed

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Speaker 6: for two x h.

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Speaker 1: Does that make it more fun?

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Speaker 6: No, it makes it way less fun. So you know,

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Speaker 6: the question is who if you're wanting the adrenaline, do

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Speaker 6: you really want to go for something to moose point five?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And also two x micro Strategy in a way is

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Speaker 2: four x Bitcoin, so they which you can't do because

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Speaker 2: micro strategy is two x bitcoin.

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Speaker 3: These are two x that.

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Speaker 2: So that's why I also think people are trading it

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Speaker 2: because there's two x bitcoin ets, But why do two

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Speaker 2: x when you can do four? And I'll go to

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Speaker 2: Ethan on this, They've got three x micro strategy. In Europe,

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Speaker 2: They've got crazier stuff there, but nobody cares.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, it's just that they don't have that sort

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Speaker 5: of gambling culture that they have in They.

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Speaker 4: They don't like potentially losing money.

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Speaker 3: There's not many Degen products there.

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Speaker 5: There's by the way, five x Nasdaq here that no

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Speaker 5: would They've been around for years with no as.

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Speaker 3: If that was here, it'd be a jillion dollars.

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Speaker 1: Could you imagine five x Nasdaq? I was salivating.

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Speaker 2: I was touring around Switzerland this year and like Europe

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Speaker 2: and stuff, and when I went over the hot Sauce part,

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Speaker 2: I was like, so, like, you know, you know how

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Speaker 2: you guys like have like a sports gambling account and

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Speaker 2: like nothing.

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Speaker 3: I'd see like one young dude maybe.

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Speaker 2: Smile and I was like, all right, maybe you that's it,

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Speaker 2: but like there was no, it did not resonate there.

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Speaker 3: People are not into that.

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Speaker 6: Speaking of the crypto stuff. This is also part of

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Speaker 6: this you know, biggest stories of the year. Eric and

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Speaker 6: James were named coin Desk's Crypto People of the Year,

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Speaker 6: James James Seffert from from Blooming Intelligence and it's just you.

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Speaker 2: Know a moment I think, so, yeah, they made you know,

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Speaker 2: those penguin NFTs. They made a penguin n FT of

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Speaker 2: my face that was kind of cool.

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Speaker 6: But did you buy it?

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Speaker 3: I mean they called us the etf Bros. And I

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: I've enjoyed my time there. It's an interesting crowd. Like

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm a true Bogel head, so I can't

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Speaker 2: go fully into it, but it's a little you know,

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Speaker 2: there's it's a controversial area still, it's not something that's

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Speaker 2: fully accepted everywhere. But for the most part, I think

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Speaker 2: what was interesting about this year. I was going to

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Speaker 2: bring up a bitcoin but is just the Larry Fink Fidelity.

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Speaker 2: You know, these are people who have a lot of

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Speaker 2: trust and credibility and for them to get behind this

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Speaker 2: with products on their name is it definitely has brought

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Speaker 2: it more mainstream and made it more acceptable and exciting

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Speaker 2: for me and James to be part of that. But

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Speaker 2: I'd say a year ago. It was still kind of

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Speaker 2: getting rid of that SBF stench.

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Speaker 6: I mentioned it because the bitcoin ETFs were huge, really

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Speaker 6: so huge. I bit the I shares one it had

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Speaker 6: it got over fifty billion.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, that's an info.

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Speaker 6: It's a crazy.

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Speaker 1: Less than a year.

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Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, let me drop a number on this. I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna blow your mind.

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Speaker 2: Fifty billion dollars in two hundred and twenty one days

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Speaker 2: on the market. The next fastest ETF to fifty billion

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Speaker 2: dollars was thirteen hundred and twenty nine days, so one

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Speaker 2: year versus four years, and that was I E MG.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that's interesting is if you have any

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Speaker 2: given year of ETFs, if your ETF gets one percent

403
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Speaker 2: of what ibit get got, which is five hundred million,

404
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Speaker 2: you would probably be in the top twenty most successful

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Speaker 2: launches of the year.

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Speaker 4: Right yeah, I mean, let's just look at I'm assuming,

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Speaker 4: first of all, this was your second story.

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Speaker 6: No, I still have a really good one coming out.

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Speaker 3: This one.

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Speaker 1: We'll call this the interlude.

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Speaker 3: We'll call this stealing thunder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, interlude.

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Speaker 4: But the seventh largest bitcoin ETF, which is coin shares

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Speaker 4: pulled in, has nine hundred and thirty million dollars. The

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Speaker 4: eighth largest one from in Vesco. BTCo has nine hundred million,

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Speaker 4: the ninth largest Franklin eight hundred million. Everybody, everybody had success.

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Speaker 4: This was when you guys talked about it as being

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Speaker 4: a race. It has been a race, but coming in

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Speaker 4: ninth place has still been a success for the firm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was something some people there was. There was

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Speaker 2: the haters that were like, never get approved. Then they

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Speaker 2: were like, well but there'll be no demand. Then they're like,

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Speaker 2: well but some of these are gonna liquidate. There's not

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Speaker 2: enough demand. Now they moved on to all kinds of

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Speaker 2: other stuff. But now it's not the right people, it's

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Speaker 2: it's they just keep moving the goalpost. If you if

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Speaker 2: you hate this area, you're just going to find ways

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Speaker 2: to hate. That's fine. I think the numbers speak for themselves.

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Speaker 2: You can see them getting quieter and quieter. I don't

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Speaker 2: know where all this goals, Joel, but we do think

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Speaker 2: that the bitcoin etifs are probably going to pass gold

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Speaker 2: ETFs and assets because they do act as a store

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Speaker 2: of value, yet they also have that hot sauce quality

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Speaker 2: that gold doesn't.

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Speaker 1: When does that happen?

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Speaker 2: So right now, the in the US. Those ETFs have

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Speaker 2: one hundred and ten billion, and goldietfs have one twenty

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Speaker 2: eight so they're only eighteen billion dollars back.

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Speaker 3: I thought it would take three or four years for

440
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 3: them to it's tricking.

441
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 2: Next year it is, it's it might be. I mean,

442
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 2: at this rate, every day it's like something new happens.

443
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 3: It's good news.

444
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,439
Speaker 2: Look, who knows this is? This is very volatile, unknown stuff.

445
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 2: But I do think that the ETFs brought low cost liquidity,

446
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 2: no friction, and again they brought cover air cover for

447
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 2: the advisors out there who are like, well, Larry Finx

448
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 2: is okay, it's okay, all right.

449
00:20:58,119 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 1: Bil Donna, what's your official number two?

450
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 6: Okay, my official number two? Well, I was going to say,

451
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 6: and we forgot to mention. We keep forgetting because no, no,

452
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 6: there's just no my number two is coming up. But

453
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 6: we we didn't even say Bitcoin crossed over one hundred thousand,

454
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 6: which is what's helped these ETOs.

455
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: But Trump too, yes, but Trump held yeah, of course.

456
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 6: But but I don't.

457
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 1: Think any of that would have happened had that ETFs

458
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 1: not happened earlier in the year, like laid this foundation

459
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 1: for you know, permission, basically just a.

460
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 6: String of really astonishing numbers and records and anyway my

461
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 6: number two. Yeah for real, I was trying to come

462
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 6: up with a topic that I was hoping none of

463
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 6: you would would come up with. Yeah, we had so

464
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 6: many executive changes at issuers this year. We had Vanguard

465
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 6: has a new CEO. H State treat has an Apoglia.

466
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 6: She's their executive business officer. I think chief business officer

467
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 6: Brian Lake moved to Goldman from JP Morgan. We had

468
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 6: huge each turnover so global X. The list goes on.

469
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 6: It's just lots of changes happening some because some of

470
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 6: these companies are trying to be even more innovative, even

471
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 6: more involved, put out even more ETFs and new products.

472
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 6: So just trying to change our perspective a little bit

473
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 6: from just the record numbers.

474
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: Like I like the attempt.

475
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's great because first of all, those

476
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 4: are all proven people that have taken their talents and

477
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 4: gone someplace else and likely can see the success. But

478
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 4: then people are getting moved up within within those respective firms.

479
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,880
Speaker 4: So Invesco is Brian Hartigan that's taking on an additional role.

480
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 4: I couldn'tame each person, but we've seen Travis Spence at

481
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 4: JP Morgan again fresh perspectives.

482
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: All right, Vell Donna, that was a good one, a

483
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: slightly different note than usual, and I appreciate that. We'll

484
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 1: distinguish it from you know, Athanasias. He only talks about

485
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: inflows all the time. Todd, what's your number two?

486
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: Yeah? He first the everygonality on that.

487
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 4: Well, you set me up to now I can't talk

488
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 4: about inflows, but yet I still will.

489
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 1: Okay, So take a little heat off of even there.

490
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 4: Vil Donna's interlude number one was about active launches. I'm

491
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 4: going to just talk about active fixed income flows because

492
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 4: I obviously we've had success and Eric can fall asleep.

493
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 4: But one hundred billion dollars, one hundred billion dollars went

494
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 4: into active fixed income ETFs. J Triple A, which is

495
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 4: a COLO ETF from Janis Henderson, which was relatively late

496
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 4: entrant into the ETF marketplace. We had Fidelity with FBND

497
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 4: with over ten billion dollars. We saw Capitol Group what's

498
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 4: it all about?

499
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: Like? Why?

500
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 4: So we've seen investors long embrace active management within fixed income.

501
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 4: We have the FED that finally started cutting rates and

502
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 4: then now perhaps might be on pause by the time

503
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 4: people hear this because we're recording this before the FED

504
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 4: does its meeting, and they've been embracing ETFs, and that's

505
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 4: just the marriage of those two things plus such proven

506
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 4: asset managers that are now in this space. So advisors

507
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 4: are turning to active fixed income ETFs. I think that's

508
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 4: just a great opportunity for the experts to help the

509
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 4: investors and the advisors.

510
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's not necessarily new, but sure. I mean

511
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: the bond ETFs I think took all that twenty percent more.

512
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 2: They had a record too, and bonds haven't done that

513
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 2: well this year. They were kind of met, you know,

514
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 2: compared to stocks. So for them to have a record

515
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 2: that's twenty percent above the old record is pretty good

516
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: sign when you're not crushing it. JAAA is is a

517
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: that really did have a good year. But like AG

518
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 2: and B and D, what do they have three percent

519
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 2: this year or something like, But they took in thirteen

520
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: percent of all the flows. People love that AG core,

521
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: you know.

522
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 4: But people also love trying to beat the AG. So

523
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 4: one hundred billion dollars for active fixed income ETFs is

524
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 4: a great milestone. Is a sign that we're going to

525
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 4: see even more success.

526
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think you'll see more managers come in

527
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: as well. They seems to be a slight the bond

528
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: managers get a little more love than stock pickers pound

529
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 2: for pound.

530
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: I feel like, all right, Ethan, bring us home, what's

531
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: your what's your your last theme of the year.

532
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 5: Let's talk about flows again. Okay, I don't have an

533
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 5: actual stat but you know, we've been covering this a while,

534
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 5: and what I thought was really interesting about this year.

535
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 5: Whether or not they launched this year, it's it's not

536
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 5: really The point is that there was a lot of

537
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 5: categories that came into the spotlight this year. So for example,

538
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 5: obviously bitcoin that was one buffer ETFs, yield max ETFs,

539
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 5: single stock ETFs, So I can't remember.

540
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: One credit credit.

541
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 5: Credit another one that was like talked about a lot.

542
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 5: I can't remember, Like normally this would happened like one

543
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 5: in like once a year like something like that. But

544
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 5: to have all these simultaneously come up in the same year,

545
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 5: I thought was really interesting. So Steff, we had been

546
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 5: really exciting to cover because you have all these categories

547
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 5: that were born this year, buffers to another one like

548
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 5: they've been around for a while, but they really like

549
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 5: insurging an inflow.

550
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: So that's really a stude observation, Like I think we

551
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: talk about all of those things sort of an isolation.

552
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: When we step back and have a year in review episode,

553
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: it's a good moment to be like, wow, look at

554
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: all of those things in tandem.

555
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 3: So yours truly tried to thread all that together. And

556
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: here's what I came up with.

557
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: The ETF industry has gone from providing beta into solving

558
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: problems and even further changing your mood. So I almost

559
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: equate a little pharma action here because whether you're a

560
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: worried boomer buffers or a bored millennial gen zer, single

561
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: stock leveraged, they're providing things that are going to change

562
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 2: your feelings. So we think that, you know, the new

563
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: white space is your mind.

564
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: That's deep.

565
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 3: Yeah you like that. Yeah, it's a work in progress.

566
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: I got to fine tune in a little.

567
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 4: Bit PSYCHEDELOGYTF that was out there. That's in Canada, right.

568
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: No, there's still one here.

569
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: But the point being is, but the reason what Ethan

570
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 2: just said is interesting too. Besides bitcoin, they're pretty cheap.

571
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: I'm gonna move those aside.

572
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: That's like a whole new asset class, but the buffers

573
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: and the single stocks in particular, they all charge ninety

574
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: to one hundred basis points. So for people to come

575
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 2: in and out of nowhere, create a category in the

576
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 2: Vanguardian era that can charge that much.

577
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 3: You gotta study that.

578
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 2: Because we write to our clients a lot who are

579
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: in this industry like, hey, this is what worked and why,

580
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: and that's why we're like, maybe don't think about what

581
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 2: asset class you can cover, but maybe think about what

582
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: problem you can solve or what mood you can change.

583
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: Hmmm, twenty twenty five, be talking about moods some more.

584
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: An you think, yeah, okay, can I give my last one?

585
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 3: You guys hit on a little.

586
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: Bit the final interlude, final countdown?

587
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, mind flicks forward too. Well, there's I'll do a

588
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: quick too, fir.

589
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 3: Because I want to hear both your all your comments

590
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: on this. First is what he said. Private credit file.

591
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 2: Every year there is one filing or two filings that

592
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: are earthquake level, and this year it.

593
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 3: Was the Spider Apollo private credit filing.

594
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: There was a couple other Colo private credits, but those

595
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: are just investing in colos that happen to have private

596
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: credit in it. The Apollo one is interesting because it's

597
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: direct private credit and Apollo is part of it. They're massive.

598
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: The bridging of the gap between that world and the

599
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: public is major. The CEO of Apollo really wants to

600
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: do this. It's going to be a baby step. But

601
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: if they can pull this off and figure out how

602
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: to make something ill liquid liquid with Apollo's help, man,

603
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: this is a big deal. This could really disrupt a lot.

604
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: The private funds market is like fourteen trillion dollars. It's

605
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: bigger than ETFs M. That is going to get interesting.

606
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: Well, I think.

607
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 4: I think it also did spur so the products that

608
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 4: we now have in the marketplace bomb blocks having one

609
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 4: of them. I think there was a race to get

610
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 4: that to the market ahead of the State Street Apollo

611
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 4: to ride that tell wind that the market isn't The

612
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 4: ETF industry in the market is now focused on getting

613
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 4: private credit within the ETF space.

614
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: I don't blame them. They they did the right thing.

615
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: They moved it out. It's just not quite the same.

616
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: It reminds me the bitcoin futures ETFs versus Bitcoin spot.

617
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: You know, to have colo private credit, I don't know.

618
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: You know how ETF does they want it the real deal.

619
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: They want the stuff that they want, the real party

620
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: behind the party.

621
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 4: Well, let's see if the real party actually happens. Let's

622
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: see if yeah, we get if.

623
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: What do you what do you think? Well, what do

624
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: you think the odds are?

625
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: Oh?

626
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 4: I think the I think it'll come to market. I

627
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 4: think I think Stage Street and the POLA want to

628
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 4: have it come to market. I think it's a focus

629
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 4: for them. Will it be Will it be as liquid

630
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 4: as we hope it will be? Taking an a liquid

631
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: asset and making liquid. I'm hopeful that that's the case.

632
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: But one thing on this, let's say the private equity

633
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: or the private credit part isn't that liquid and the

634
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: fund overall is semi liquid.

635
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 3: We've seen cases.

636
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: Of ETF like the Japan ETF is I liquid every

637
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: day because the stocks don't trade in COVID. The high

638
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: yield communit ETF HYD traded at a twenty nine percent

639
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: discount since then taken in money and has had plenty

640
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: of volume. Like nobody cares. I think people trust the

641
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: ETF price and the industry, and so I think even

642
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: if there is like a gap between the supposed nav

643
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: and the price, I think ETF investor would rather have

644
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: that discounted perceive discount than go into like an interval

645
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: fund or some other form that's not quite as familiar

646
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: and comfortable to them as the ETF.

647
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: I think so too.

648
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: I just think it's going to require education, and it's

649
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 4: going to we might see a.

650
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: Delay in the job security for us many.

651
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 4: Yes, listen, we're approaching four thousand children we have to

652
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 4: take care of in this industry. That's wonderful.

653
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: Well, we'll be watching the new SEC chair and the

654
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: SEC conversations next year to see how this private credit land.

655
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: That should have been my last topic now that I'm

656
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: thinking of it, because there are three little sub things

657
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: that new SEC chair you're probably going to see private

658
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: credit no problem, because they're going to be morebertarian and

659
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: like Genzer was pretty tight.

660
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: I think it's bringing me looser.

661
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: The other thing is the ETF share classes, where you

662
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: can just like bolt on an ETF share.

663
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 3: Class to a mutual fund.

664
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: M hmm.

665
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: I think that's gonna be like a It's gonna drain

666
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: money into the ETF.

667
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: A lot of people will switch over. It'll make switching easy.

668
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 3: Do you think is there any other take on that.

669
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: No, I just don't know that the SEC is ready

670
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 4: to move forward on it. But we'll see with you know,

671
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 4: with a new chair and new leadership, they seem to

672
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 4: be well. I would have thought by now we would

673
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: have seen approval if we had this conversation a year ago,

674
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: and we haven't. So until we see the I think

675
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 4: what they'll probably do is approve a couple of them

676
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 4: and see how they work before opening up the door

677
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 4: for everybody.

678
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: Here's what this whole thing has going for it. It's

679
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: got these gigantic issues. I think there's thirty five, thirty

680
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: six that collectively managed like seven trait. These are big,

681
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: no nonsense companies.

682
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: Industry.

683
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: It's the industry, and they are close with the ICI,

684
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: who's close with Washington.

685
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: They're going to get this done. There's too much power

686
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 3: behind it.

687
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: There's just one name, it's Blackrock. There's like once they

688
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 5: show up, it's just like, all right, yeah, this is happening.

689
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 5: So is there anything more than that that we need

690
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 5: to know?

691
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 4: Well, But it's the good thing is that it's not

692
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 4: just them, It's it's some of the large mutual fund

693
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: companies that don't have much of an ETF presence.

694
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: But he's saying that, like Blackrock filing for it helps

695
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: everybody because they got so much muscle.

696
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 5: No.

697
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 3: I agree.

698
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 4: But if the SEC is worried about mutual funds versus ETFs,

699
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 4: and the firms that are disproportionately tilted towards mutual funds

700
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 4: are comfortable with offering ETFs, I think that should make

701
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 4: it more palatable than the largest ETF provider saying, let

702
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: me offer ETF share classes to my existing mutual funds.

703
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, Vanguard did it.

704
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: They were to fund company, and they did it successfully,

705
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: So I think there's a precedent. The final thing from

706
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: the new SEC chair is just when they just when

707
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: I think I'm actual, they pull me back in. We're

708
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: gonna see a ton of a coin ETFs x RP

709
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 2: Solana h Bar, which I had to look up.

710
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: I was like, what even is that?

711
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 4: You're gonna have a gelt et.

712
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 3: They're gonna there's.

713
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 6: Some you know, ones that we shouldn't even name.

714
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: I say, gonna lose his mind and so am I

715
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: I thought it was done.

716
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 5: You guys have no idea. I have to live in

717
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 5: this chat with Eric and James every day. But but

718
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 5: to that, if I could just add about the private

719
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 5: equity thing and these now at coins, and that's what

720
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 5: you got to really admire about the industry. Like we're

721
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 5: just coming off of this fantastic year, and the industry

722
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 5: is not saying let's just take a break like we've had.

723
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 5: They're just like, let's push the next frontier, which is

724
00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 5: private assets whatever.

725
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: And that's what you got to love about it.

726
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 5: And I think with your new administration, I wouldn't be

727
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 5: surprised to see ETF. They're like completely tied to that,

728
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 5: like TARIFFYTF, so they're very opportunistic. I think there could

729
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 5: be some we could maybe have another crazy year of

730
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 5: filings and launches. So but that's what you gotta love

731
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 5: about the industry. They just keep pushing the envelope.

732
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: There's a moment where it goes too far.

733
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: Well, what would stop all of this and especially the

734
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: new product is just a really vicious bear market that

735
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: will cool everything down. But until that happens, I just

736
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: think that this the spirit of this year is going

737
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: to just bleed into the next year.

738
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 4: It's gonna it would stop the product innovation perhaps, but

739
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 4: it's not going to stop the flows.

740
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 3: You see money going well, I don't think you go

741
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 3: to a trillion dollars.

742
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, the market was down eighteen percent

743
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: and they took in six hundred billion, So I think

744
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: you see. I think the market helps everybody just want

745
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 2: to put money into it. But I agree with you,

746
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: ETF will take in money.

747
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: Rainershin Athan, Phil Donna Todd. Thanks so much for joining

748
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: us on Trillions.

749
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: It was great.

750
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me.

751
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: Thanks, this is fun. Thanks for listening to Trillions until

752
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal,

753
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you'd

754
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're

755
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show. He's at Eric Altunas.

756
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Bye