1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. The Treaty of Waitangi became international news late 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: last week after Maori MP Hanaahiti Mighty Clark started a 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: hakka at the end of a vote on the Treaty 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: Principles Bill. So footage of Maori members of Parliament and 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: people in the public gallery joining this hakka as some 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: of the other people in the room either rolled their 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: eyes or looked uncomfortable very quickly went viral. This is 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: part of ongoing advocacy on the part of Maori people 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: to get the terms of this treaty respected, and thousands 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: of people have also been marching to Wellington in protest 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: of the Treaty Principal's Bill. That march is expected to 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: arrive at the Capitol after we record this intro, but 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: before this Saturday Classic will come out into our podcast feed. 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: Our episode on the Treaty of Waitangi came out on 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: June fourth, twenty fourteen, and it talks about some of 16 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: the context for this bill, which is that the English 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: and Maori versions of this treaty have significant and meaningful 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: differences from one another. If the Treaty Principal's Bill became law, 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: it would move interpretations of the Treaty from the Courts 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: to Parliament, which critics say would drastically undermine its terms. 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: This bill's progression through Parliament is still ongoing, as Tracy said, 22 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: as of when we are recording this. Also, I just 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: want to add that in the original version of this episode, 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: I made a brief reference to Eddie Izzard kind of 25 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: on the fly, and that was before she began using 26 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: she her pronouns, so that information and the way I 27 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: reference her is outdated. So enjoy the episode. Welcome to 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello, 29 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy Wilson. I'm Holly fry. So. 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: We've had a lot of people who have asked us 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: to talk about the Treaty of Why Tangy, and this 32 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: is including a listener mail that we read on the 33 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: podcast a very long time ago in which I pronounced 34 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: why Tangy terribly, like really, really badly. Somebody later wrote 35 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: in and said that I did a good job, and 36 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that person was kidding, because I did 37 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: a very bad job. I'm training behind. Yes, I'm hoping 38 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: to do a better job. Today. I have been listening 39 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: to a whole lot of film from New Zealand. So 40 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: this is a treaty that was signed by representatives of 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: the British Government and the Maoring of New Zealand, or 42 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: as it's known in the Maori language Aoteroa, and that 43 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: means land of the long White Cloud. So this is 44 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: the document that established New Zealand as a nation. And 45 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: unlike with many, many, many other treaties between the British 46 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: government and indigenous peoples that had happened earlier in history, 47 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: the spirit of this agreement was really to see to 48 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: the best interests of both the Maori and the Crown, 49 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: which makes it kind of an anomaly and kind of 50 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: groundbreaking in the words are in the world of like 51 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: colonial and indigenous relations. However, the English and Maori texts 52 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: of this treaty are so different that they're almost fundamentally 53 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: different documents, and so debate over exactly what the treaty 54 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: meant and how it should be interpreted started almost immediately, 55 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: And given the history of mankind on the earth, it 56 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: should also be a surprise to no one that not 57 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: everything afterward followed the original spirit of the treaty anyway, 58 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: So that's what we're going to talk about today, this 59 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: treaty and how it came about and some of what 60 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: it led to you. And as with any treaty, there 61 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: are pros and cons to it. But when you look 62 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: at the grand spectrum of relations between colonizing governments and 63 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: indigenous peoples, this one was a lot of different, a 64 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: lot different than a lot of what came before. So 65 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna do a little bit of groundwork here about 66 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: New Zealand. Dutch explorer Abel Tasman first cited New Zealand 67 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: in sixteen forty two, and then James Cook's cabin boy, 68 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: who was called Young Nick, spotted it again in seventeen 69 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: sixty nine. Europeans were fairly slow to arrive in New 70 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: Zealand from that point, so the whalers and the sealers 71 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: came first, and then missionaries followed not long after. By 72 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties, there were approximately one hundred and twenty 73 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: five thousand Maori living in New Zealand, and a few 74 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: British settlers made it a frontier outpost of New South Wales, 75 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: which at the time was a British penal colony. Overall, 76 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: for the most part, early relations between the Maori and 77 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: The Europeans who were arriving in New Zealand were mostly peaceful. 78 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: There were occasional disputes and fights. However, the British law 79 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: did not extend to New Zealand because New Zealand wasn't 80 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: British territory, and so this meant that there really was 81 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: not any law governing the British subjects who wound up there, 82 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: who naturally did not feel like they were beholden to 83 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: Maori law. And so this was especially problematic given that 84 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: many of the subjects of the Crown who made their 85 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: way to New Zealand were convicts who had escaped from 86 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: New South Wales. So you had people who were convicted 87 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: criminals making their way to this other island where there 88 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: were no laws to govern them. And as more people 89 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: moved in, trading efforts started to grow because people need things, 90 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: and so more than one thousand British ships began visiting 91 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 1: New Zealand every year, and New Zealand started to become 92 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: more appealing to other European governments as a consequence, including France. Eventually, 93 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: as the population of Europeans started to grow, some of 94 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: them asked the British government to help establish some kind 95 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: of official system to try to maintain order. It was 96 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: this kind of lawless place among the European settlers at 97 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: this point. They were also a lot of the British 98 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: subjects were hoping for protection that would prevent the encroachment 99 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: of other European governments, and at first the British were 100 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: really not eager to do this. They did not really 101 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: want to extend their holdings into New Zealand at all. 102 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: So eventually, in eighteen thirty five, a man named James 103 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: Busby was given the official post of British Resident in 104 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: New Zealand, and this was sort of like being a 105 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: consular official. He was there to represent the Crown. That 106 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: was his job, but he really didn't have any actual 107 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 1: power and he had almost no support from the British government, 108 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: so consequently people called him the Man of War without guns. 109 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: One of Busby's acts as British residents, which kind of 110 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: cracks me up as a title for some reason, although 111 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: one that was done without any authority to do so, 112 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: was to draw up a Declaration of Independence of the 113 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: Northern Chiefs, and this document declared New Zealand a sovereign 114 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: nation under the absolute rule of its hereditary chiefs and 115 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: tribal leaders, and his goal wasn't so much to make 116 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: the Maori independent as to try to block the French 117 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: from making their own treaty and taking the colony over. 118 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: Yes that Britain was not currently at war at prith 119 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: Prance when this was going on, but they had been 120 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: in the recent past and for many many years, so 121 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: they were at best a little wary of each other. 122 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: All I can think of is the Eddie Izzard bit 123 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: where he does do you have a flag? This is 124 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: actually a lot like this for you. Yes, there is 125 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: real There was real discussion about we need to get 126 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: the flag. We need to get a flag for the 127 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: New Zealanders. People will be more respectful of New Zealand 128 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: if it has a flag like that was a real 129 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: step in this whole process that we're not going into 130 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: a lot of detail about today. So Busby presented this 131 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: declaration to thirty four Maori chiefs at his home on 132 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: the North Island. So additional chiefs then were originally present 133 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: eventually signed the document, and then in nineteen thirty six, 134 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: the Crown officially acknowledged Maori nationhood based on the existence 135 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: of this declaration, and before this point, the Mawori had 136 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: not really had the concept of the state as part 137 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: of their worldview. In their social structure, each tribe governed 138 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: itself under the leadership of a chief known as rangetira. However, 139 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: as word of the declaration of independence spread, it solidified 140 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: the idea among the Maori that they were in fact 141 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: in charge of their own affairs and able to govern themselves. 142 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: So this declaration, though only gave New Zealand a temporary 143 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: respite from the influence of all these political factions from Europe. 144 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: By the late eighteen thirties, there were about two thousand 145 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: settlers from Europe living in New Zealand, and a number 146 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: of British businesses and shipping companies were planning to scale 147 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: up their operations there, and there of course was also 148 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: interest substantially from France. There were also huge amounts of 149 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: trade going on between New Zealand and New South Wales, 150 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: so the Mallori wanted to begin trading with other nations themselves, 151 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: but doing so was difficult without being first officially recognized 152 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: as a nation, which brings us back to the question 153 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: of whether they had a flag, which was a real 154 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: point of discussion in all of this in a move 155 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: that was definitely as much about protecting its own interest 156 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: from France as protecting the Mawori from anybody. In eighteen 157 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: thirty nine, the British government dispatched William Hobson of the 158 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: Royal Navy to go to New Zealand and negotiate on 159 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: behalf of the crown. And his assignment was to establish 160 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: a treaty with the Maori, and once that was done, 161 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: he was to act as Lieutenant governor for any part 162 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: of New Zealand that would agree to become a British colony. 163 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: Hobson got a lot of direction about exactly what he 164 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: was supposed to do, and included in all of this 165 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: were these instructions from Lord normanby the Colonial Secretary regarding 166 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: this assignment. This is quote, All dealings with the Aborigines 167 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: for their lands must be conducted on the same principles 168 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: of sincerity, justice, and good faith as must govern your 169 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: transactions with them for the recognition of Her Majesty's sovereignty 170 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: in these islands. Nor is this all. They must not 171 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: be permitted to into any contracts in which they might 172 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: be ignorant and unintended authors of injuries to themselves you 173 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: will not, for example, purchase from them any territory the 174 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: retention of which by them would be essential or highly 175 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: conducive to their own comfort, safety, or substance. The acquisition 176 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: of land by the Crown for the future settlement of 177 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: British subjects must be confined to such districts as the 178 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: natives can alienate without distress or serious inconvenience to themselves. 179 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: To secure the observance of this rule will be one 180 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: of the first duties of their official protector. So if 181 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: you know anything about relations with indigenous people in the 182 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: world before this point, this is basically the opposite of 183 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: how a lot of these treaties were previously carried out. 184 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: Like there were many many treaties in the settlement of 185 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: what is now the United States and in Africa and 186 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: in the South Pacific and in South America that were 187 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: basically like, here is this treaty where we're going to 188 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: make you think you're getting a good deal, but we 189 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: the people who were colonizing or actually taking you for 190 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: a giant ride. So this was specifically at this point 191 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: the world having learned that this was a bad thing 192 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: to do against the rules, like he was supposed to 193 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: get down there and actually put a treaty together in 194 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: good faith, and so, considering the tone of a lot 195 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: of earlier treaties between the British and indigenous peoples, or 196 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: later Americans and Indigenous peoples, or whoever and indigenous peoples, 197 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: this was hugely progressive. But at the same time some 198 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: of the flavor of the instruction was also kind of racist, 199 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: since a big underlying tone of all of it was 200 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: that from the British point of view, the Mallori were 201 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: not actually capable of handling their own affairs. So there, 202 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: although it was a big step forward in relations with 203 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: indigenous people, it was not entirely free from problems. Hobson 204 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: awry on January twenty ninth of eighteen forty, and he 205 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: had been corresponding with George Gipps, who was Governor of 206 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: New South Wales, about what exactly should go into the treaty, 207 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: and once he arrived, Hobson also worked with his secretary, 208 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: who was named James Freeman, as well as James Buzzby, 209 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: who we discussed earlier on completing this treaty. So they 210 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: basically got completely down to the wire on putting the 211 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: treaty together. They had summoned all of these chiefs to 212 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: a big meeting, but they didn't have a draft of 213 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: the treaty to actually have translated until the night before, 214 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: So on the eve of this meeting they handed the 215 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: treaty over to Henry Williams, who was a missionary, and 216 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: Williams translated the text into Mauri with the help of 217 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: his son Edward. At this point, the Williamses had established 218 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: relationships with the Mallory and they spoke the Maori language, 219 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: but they really did not have a lot of time 220 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: to put their translation together. On February fifth, once again 221 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: in Busby's home, the representatives of Britain prison the treaty 222 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: to about five hundred assembled Maori. Then, while there was 223 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: extensive discussion, no agreement was actually signed. The next day, 224 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: which was February sixth, after a little more discussion, forty 225 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: five chiefs did sign the treaty. The first to sign 226 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: was a chief named Honahicke, who was also called hone Polkai, 227 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: and he felt a treaty with the British was their 228 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: best option. The day before the treaty was signed, he 229 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: reportedly said to Hobson, Governor, you should stay with us 230 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: and be like a father. If you go away, then 231 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: the French and the rum sellers will take us Maori over. 232 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: So Hona Heke's support was really instrumental in getting a 233 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: lot of the other chiefs to sign the treaty, and 234 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: from there the original treaty as well as copies of it, 235 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: were sent around the islands to gather additional signatures, and 236 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: in the end more than five hundred Maori signatures replied 237 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: to the document, and thirteen of the signatures were from women, 238 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly the Maori who signed the tree he signed a 239 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: Maori language version with at least one British subject signing 240 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: as well, and who this British signatory was varied from 241 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: place to place. Not every rangatira signed the document. Some 242 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: of them never got a chance to because while copies 243 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: of the treaty were distributed, they didn't make it to 244 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: every single part of the islands that make up New Zealand. 245 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: There were also definitely chiefs who opposed the treaty on 246 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: the grounds that the protections that were being granted were 247 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: just not enough to outweigh the independence that they would 248 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: be giving up. There were also chiefs who were suspicious 249 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: of the British government's intent about the whole thing, and 250 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: then farther inland there were chiefs who just didn't see 251 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: the point because they, not being from the more coastal areas, 252 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: hadn't actually had a lot of contact with people from 253 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: Europe by then. And even though not every chief had signed, 254 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: the British government felt that the treaty applied to all Maori, 255 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: whether they had signed it or not. They also almost 256 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: universally viewed the English language version of the text as 257 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: the true version of the texts. Within a few years, 258 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: British officials admitted that crown sovereignty would outweigh Maori leadership 259 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: when the two were in conflict. So to get back 260 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: to this treaty itself, the Treaty of Waitangi opens with 261 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: the preamble and that's followed by three articles. Article one 262 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: quote the chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes 263 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: of New Zealand and the separate and independent Chiefs who 264 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: have not become members of the Confederation, cede to Her Majesty, 265 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: the Queen of England, absolutely and without reservation, all the 266 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: rights and powers of sovereignty which the said Confederation or 267 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: individual chiefs respectively exercise or possess, or may be supposed 268 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: to exercise or to possess over their respective territories as 269 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: the sole sovereign thereof. So the extremely short and oversimplified 270 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: version this is basically, you, the British, are the boss 271 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: of us the Maori as of now. Yeah. So Article 272 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: two reads, Her Majesty, the Queen of England confirms and 273 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: guarantees to the chiefs and tribes of New Zealand, and 274 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: to the respective families and individuals thereof, the full exclusive 275 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: and undisturbed possessions of their lands and estates, forest, fisheries, 276 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess, 277 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: so long it is as it is their wish and 278 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: desire to retain the same in their possession. But the 279 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: chiefs of the united Tribes and the individual chiefs yield 280 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: to Her Majesty the exclusive right of preemption over such 281 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate 282 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: at such prices as may be agreed upon between the 283 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: respective proprietors and the persons appointed by Her Majesty to 284 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: treat with them on that behalf, So the oversimplified summation 285 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: on that one is you can keep your land and 286 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: your stuff unless you want to give it to us, 287 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: and if you want to do that, we'll figure out 288 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: a price. Article three is in consideration thereof her Majesty, 289 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: the Queen of England extends to the natives of New 290 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: Zealand her royal protection and imparts to them all the 291 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: rights and privileges of British subjects. That one's already pretty short, 292 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: but it basically it exchange for giving up their sovereignty, 293 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: the Maori get the protection of the crown and the 294 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: rights and privileges that are due to British subjects. And 295 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: the document ends with an epilogue which essentially states that 296 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: both parties have entered into the spirit of the treaty, 297 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: which has been important in determining whether future acts violated 298 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: the treaty. It's the spirit, not the letter. So that's 299 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: the English parts. But there are some huge and important 300 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: and meaningful differences between the English and the Maori texts 301 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: in almost every part of the entire treaty, and those 302 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: differences start right from the beginning. The English pre is 303 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: focused on providing for British settlement of New Zealand while 304 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: also protecting the Maori's interests as well as setting up 305 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: a government in the interest of maintaining peace and order. 306 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: But the Maori preamble is focused on securing Maori claims 307 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: to land and tribal governance and autonomy or tino rangatira tanga. 308 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: In Article one of the English version, the Maori chiefs 309 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: are seating quote the rights and powers of sovereignty to 310 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: the Queen of England. But in the Maori translation, the 311 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: word sovereignty was translated to a word that's closer to governorship, 312 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: which is a much less encompassing concept than sovereignty. There 313 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: was no exact translation for the word sovereignty in the 314 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: Maori language. The English version of the article of Article 315 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: two grants the Maori quote the full, exclusive and undisturbed 316 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries and other properties, 317 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: but the Maori translation used a phrase that meant quote 318 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: the full essence of chief ship, again suggesting that the 319 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: Maori were more or less getting full control over their 320 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: own affairs. The translation of forest, fisheries and other properties 321 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: is problematic too, since it was translated into a Maori 322 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: word that more closely means treasures. Yeah, there's been a 323 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: lot of discussions about what is included in treasures. Its like, 324 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: is the Maori language a treasure? Yeah, that's a pretty culture, 325 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: that treasure. Yeah, that's a word of nebulous, meaning it's 326 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: very nebulous. And so, with huge differences, like huge meaningful 327 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: differences in the overwhelming bulk of this treaty, the debate 328 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: about what the treaty was really supposed to mean and 329 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: about what the Maori believed that they were signing started 330 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: almost immediately. And on top of that, there is significant 331 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: speculation about how exactly those discrepancies between the two texts 332 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: came to be. There. Was it a simple error, you know, 333 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: due to this sort of rush translation that had to happen, 334 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 1: or was it actually a more orchestrated effort to slant 335 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: the texts in an effort to make it more palatable 336 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: to the Maori And there is really no clear documentation, 337 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: although there's loads of speculation. There's also a big subject 338 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: of speculation around how much the British signatories were even 339 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: aware that these discrepancies existed. There had been lengthy meetings 340 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: and discussions about the treaty and the text, and the 341 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: Williamses were, as we said before, familiar with the Maori language, 342 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: but you know, they didn't have a lot of time 343 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: to put this all together, so you know, at this 344 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: point in history, it's kind of unclear exactly how much 345 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: both sides knew about the differences between what one was 346 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: signing and what the other was signing. But regardless of 347 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: the differences, with this treaty in place, New Zealand became 348 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: a British colony, at first as part of New South 349 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: Wales and later that same year as its own colony. So, 350 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: because this was the document that established New Zealand as 351 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: a nation, to try to recap everything that happened as 352 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: a result of the Treaty of Waitangi would basically require 353 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: summing up basically the entire history of New Zealand from 354 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: the time that it was signed, so to extremely briefly summarize. 355 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: With the door now opened to settling from Britain, a 356 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: lot of settlers from England, to Ireland and Scotland started 357 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 1: making their way to New Zealand, with thousands of people 358 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: arriving over the next decade. Within a few years, Hona 359 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: Heke had withdrawn his support for the treaty. He was 360 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: feeling disillusioned that it was not in fact as beneficial 361 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: for the Maori as he had believed it was going 362 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: to be. As an active protest, he had the flagpole 363 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: at a British settlement repeatedly cut down. In the eighteen fifties, 364 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: the European settlers in New Zealand established their own government 365 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: and in eighteen fifty three the first Parliament can be 366 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. But at that point the Maori were 367 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: completely excluded from holding seats or from voting, following a 368 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: pretty British tradition. Land ownership was a requirement for both 369 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: of these, and most property ownership among the Maori at 370 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: that point was communal instead of individual, so it took 371 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: a while for that to shift so that it was 372 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: more compatible with the Maori worldview to allow the Maori 373 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: to participate in the government. In eighteen sixty seven, Maori 374 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: men gained the right to vote and the Maori people 375 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: actually gained four seats, and that was intended to be 376 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: a temporary move. Today, however, the Mawori continue to have 377 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: seats in Parliament and can choose to vote among the 378 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: general or the Maori electorate. The number of Maori seats 379 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: in Parliament varies depending on how many choose to vote 380 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: in the Maori electorate. I think right now there are 381 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: seven based on that number, and there's a lot of 382 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: debate about whether having specifically Maori seats are whether that 383 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: it's a good thing or a bad thing. There's a 384 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: debate on both sides, and I can see both sides 385 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: of that argument. There are people who feel like maybe 386 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: the Maori would have more representation if they did not 387 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: have these pre arraigned seats, or people who feel like 388 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: having these seats at all is racist in some way. 389 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of ongoing discussion about that. In 390 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, the Waitangi Tribunal was established, and this 391 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: investigates claims by Maori on breaches of the Treaty. For 392 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: the first ten years of its existence, this tribunal only 393 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: investigated issues that happened since it was established. However, in 394 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five its scope was expanded to include everything 395 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: that has happened since the Treaty was signed in eighteen 396 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: forty and only Maori can make claims, and these are 397 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: against either the Crown or against legislation. They can be 398 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: contemporary or historical. There's also a special Land Court to 399 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: deal specifically with Maori land. So today New zeal has 400 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: grown into a parliamentary democracy with three official languages, English, 401 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: Maori and sign language. The House of Representatives, which is 402 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: a body of elected officials, makes the laws. It's also 403 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: simultaneously a constitutional monarchy, with the reigning Sovereign of Great 404 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: Britain being the Sovereign of New Zealand as well. So 405 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: as we are recording this, Queen Elizabeth two is the 406 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: Queen of the United Kingdom as well as being Queen 407 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: of New Zealand. So in this whole arrangement, that's a 408 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: separate thing. New Zealand is not just part of the 409 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: United Kingdom. The Queen's involvement in the government is also 410 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: mostly symbolic. She's represented by the Governor General, but a 411 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: Prime Minister handles the day to day running of the government. 412 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: I know most of our listeners are from the United States, 413 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: and the sounds like very complicated system of government considering 414 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: what a lot of our listeners are used to. Yeah, 415 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: it's a lot of layers of different branches of government 416 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: sort of all theoretically playing nice together. Yeah. To make 417 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: it even a little bit more complex, the name New 418 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: Zealand does not even come from the British. It comes 419 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: from the Dutch. So when the Dutch cited it, they 420 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: named it after the Netherlands province of Zealand because at 421 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: that point Australia was called New Holland, which you know 422 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: is another part of Netherlands. And the treaty itself was 423 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: actually almost lost or destroyed a number of times over 424 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: the years, including by fire and by efforts to preserve 425 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: the document that we're actually damaging. Now. These documents are 426 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: in the Constitution Room at the Archives of New Zealand 427 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: in Wellington. I like this story because it does represent 428 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: such a big step forward in relationships between colonial governments 429 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: and indigenous peoples, but at the same time, like it's 430 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: not perfect and there's still colonialism happening in this whole situation, 431 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: so like I'm really of two minds about it. But 432 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: without this treaty, like when you look at documents about 433 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: New Zealand or if you ever visit New Zealand, like 434 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: you see it's sort of a multicultural place in a 435 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: lot of ways at this time, and I don't think 436 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: that would exist without this treaty having been created and signed. 437 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: And this story is also a sort of a nice 438 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: snapshot of how issues of government can become extremely complex, 439 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, based on one thing like that one translation 440 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: led to a great deal of discussion in all of 441 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: these sort of bizarre layers of government that happened as 442 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: a consequence. Yeah, So when when the Waitangi Tribunal looks 443 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: at cases where people have filed a grievance against the 444 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: government or against a law, it's sort of looking at Okay, 445 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: what was the spirit of the treaty supposed to be 446 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: in this case? And was the spirit of the treaty followed. 447 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: I tried to find some data about how many cases 448 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: the Tribunal has heard, and I was not able to 449 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: find that before we recorded. So if someone knows and 450 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: you send us, we will probably read it on a 451 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: future listener mail. Thanks so much for joining us on 452 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: this Saturday. If you'd like to send us a note, 453 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: our email addresses History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com, and 454 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app, 455 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.