1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. 3 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 3: And I'm Jill Wisenthal. 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 2: Joe, this is the big one. We are about to 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: ruin our most long running joke all for this. 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 3: What is our next most running joke? Anyway? Yes, we 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 3: are ruining a lot. 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 4: So we've joked for years and years and years about 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 4: how we should do an episode on the Jones Act 11 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 4: because it's come up obviously in dozens of episodes. We 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 4: did actually talk about it quite a bit in different contexts, 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 4: but we've never done an episode actually talking about the 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 4: infamous law. 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: That's right, and since we waited so long, I guess 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: we had to do it a little bit differently. 17 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 5: Style. 18 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: We had a style, yep. So for those of us 19 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: who came to our life event in Washington, DC recently, 20 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: you will have seen exactly what format we did this in. 21 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: But it's a debate. So we had someone who is 22 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,639 Speaker 2: pro Jones Act debating with someone who is anti Jones 23 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: Act live on stage. Things got heated, things got emotional, 24 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: but always entertaining and informative. 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 4: It was heated, you know, I've joked, you know, like 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 4: people have very strong feelings about the Jones Act, And 27 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 4: when we did it live on stage, we separated our 28 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 4: two guests at the end of the stage, you know, 29 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 4: sort of tongue in cheek you out because but actually, 30 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 4: you know, it's like really intensive. People feel very strongly 31 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 4: about this law, which restricts if you're going to ship 32 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 4: something from one point in the US to another point 33 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 4: in the US by water, it has to be on 34 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 4: a US built, a US crewed, in US flagged ship. 35 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 3: People feel very strongly. 36 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 4: About this law. 37 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: That's right, and it's kind of interesting also to look 38 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: at it as a little peatree dish of industrial policy. 39 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: I think is one of the reasons we first started 40 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: getting interested in this, along with a lot of the 41 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: supply chain disruptions that we were experiencing around the pandemic time. 42 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: But our two debaters were Zadafuntest, the vice president for 43 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: Government Affairs at the Transportation Institute, and Colin Grabow, and 44 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 2: associate director at the Cato Institute's Herbert A. Deful Center 45 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: for Trade Policy Studies. Zada took the pro side and 46 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: Colin took the anti side, And as I said, we 47 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: had some pretty good arguments on both sides. So take 48 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: a listen see if it changes your mind. I'm sure 49 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: if you're listening to this you probably already have an opinion. 50 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: But here we go. Before we start, I got to 51 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 2: ask how many people have heard of the Jones Act. 52 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 6: Here? 53 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 4: Wait, actually, let's just hear, like get a temperature of 54 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 4: both sides. So shout if you think the Jones Act 55 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 4: should be repealed, and shout if you think we should 56 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 4: keep the Jones Act. 57 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 2: Wow, shout if you just feel strongly about the Jones 58 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: Act either way. Yeah, all right, everyone has an opinion. Okay, 59 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: we are giving up on our longest running joke and 60 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: finally doing the Jones Act episode. We thought we'd do 61 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: something a little bit special. Instead of just having one guest, 62 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: we actually have two. It's going to be an all 63 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: thoughts debate, someone arguing the pro side and someone on 64 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: the con side. 65 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: That's right, We're not going to formally declear a winner. 66 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: Everyone's a winner. They're not formal. 67 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 4: Rules in terms of you know, there's no mike mute 68 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 4: or anything. But we are hoping we are going to 69 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 4: have a spirited discussion about this very controversial law. People 70 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 4: feel really strongly about this law one way or another, 71 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 4: and so we are going. 72 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: To finally, we don't actually do a lot of debates on. 73 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: The show at It's a rule at my house that 74 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: you can't talk about politics or the Jones Act or 75 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: crypto at Thanksgiving. Okay, So without further ado, we do 76 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: have the perfect guests. We're going to be speaking with 77 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: Zada Funtest. She is the vice president for Government Affairs 78 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: at the Transportation Institute. 79 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 7: And we have Colin Grabow. 80 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: He is a policy analyst at the Cato Institute. So 81 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: welcome to the stage, Zarda and Colin. 82 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 4: All right, Colin and Sarah, thank you so much. We're 83 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 4: finally talking the Jones Act. Colin, why don't we start 84 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 4: with you? Why should we get rid of the edge? 85 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 4: Why did you even agree to come out here and 86 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 4: talk about some random shipping law from the early nineteen hundreds, 87 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 4: and why do you devote time to it and why 88 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 4: do you want to kill it? 89 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 6: Well, Joe Tracy, first off, thanks for having me to 90 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 6: debate this issue. Thanks for doing ending the long running 91 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 6: joke and finally talking about it. So, yeah, the Jones Act, Well, 92 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 6: why am I so against it? I think the US 93 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 6: maritime policy should try to achieve two goals. It should 94 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 6: provide us with efficient domestic transportation by water, which is 95 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 6: really important because we have lots of water in the 96 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 6: United States. We have thousands of miles of coastline home 97 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 6: to major metropolitan areas. We have the Great Lakes, we 98 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 6: have a vast network of inland waterways, have a. 99 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: Contiguas and territories. 100 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 6: So we have this big resource and we totally underutilize 101 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 6: it by making the cost of transportation so expensive. The 102 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 6: other thing we need to do is meet national security goals. 103 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 6: We need to have shipyards, we need to have ships, 104 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 6: we need to have mariners to crue those ships. And 105 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 6: I don't think the Jones Act does a good job 106 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 6: of meeting either one of those goals. So I talked 107 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 6: about shipping water transfer being expensive. 108 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 5: Why is that? 109 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 6: Well, we should back up and say what is does 110 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 6: the Jones Act? Do Jones Act? 111 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: Everyone's giving history lessons tonight, so you might as well 112 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: go all the way back. 113 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 6: Oh, so the Jones Act is section twenty seven. If 114 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 6: the Merchant mari Enact of nineteen twenty was essentially states 115 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 6: that if you want to move goods by water, you 116 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 6: have to use a vessel that meets for conditions, it 117 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 6: has to be US flagged, it has to be US built, 118 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 6: it has to be crewed by Americans. It has to 119 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 6: be at least seventy five percent owned by Americans. Now, 120 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 6: these provisions make water transportation extremely expensive. Less than one 121 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 6: percent of the world world ships comply with the US 122 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 6: flag requirement. That means ninety nine percent of the world 123 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 6: ships are off the table if you want to move 124 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 6: something within the United States. If you look at a 125 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 6: map of all the ships operating than US waters, they're. 126 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 3: Full of foreign ships. 127 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 6: We have foreign ships everywhere. We can't use them. So right, 128 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 6: there's let's supply the US flag ships are about four 129 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 6: times more expensive to operate than foreign flagships, and when 130 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 6: it comes to building that ship, they cost about four 131 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 6: to five times more to build than those built overseas, 132 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 6: so that has huge capital costs. 133 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 3: You put that. 134 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 6: Combination together and you're going to get very expensive shipping. 135 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 6: You know how expensive. There was a Federal Reserve Bank 136 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 6: of New York study in twenty twelve. The founder was 137 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 6: twice as expensive to send a container from the East 138 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 6: Coast to Puerto Rico, where the Jonzac applies as to 139 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 6: send to neighboring Jamaica or the Dominican Republic. In twenty seventeen, 140 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 6: the CEO of a JONESAC shipping company admitted that Jones 141 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 6: A tankers were three to four times more expensive than 142 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 6: internationally flag tankers. I mean just yesterday at Center and 143 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 6: you in Connecticut rather testify for the state legislature, saying 144 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 6: that his first job out of college, he used to 145 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 6: work in bulk shipping, and that moving goods within the 146 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 6: United States was five, sometimes ten times more expensive than 147 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 6: using internationally flagged vessels. So this is the profound cost. 148 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 6: I mean, distance is a barrier to a trade between Americans, 149 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 6: and this makes water transportation incredibly expensive. It's a barrier 150 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 6: just doing business with each other. 151 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: Okay, so the one thing we can agree on is 152 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: America is hashtag blessed in terms of inland water ways. 153 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: But Sada, I want to bring you in, so feel 154 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: free to give us your own history lesson. But the 155 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: Jones Act doesn't exist just to boost prices of shipping. 156 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: There are other reasons, such as security. So why don't 157 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: we go way back in history and talk a little 158 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: bit more about why this act actually exists? 159 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 8: Sure, So the reasons for the Jones Act are the 160 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 8: same today as they were. 161 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 7: When it passed in nineteen twenty. 162 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 8: And also some form of you know, Jones AC can 163 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 8: also be referred to as cabotage laws. Some former cabotage 164 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 8: law has existed. 165 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 3: What's cage meanin. 166 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 8: It basically means if you're moving goods between two points, 167 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 8: that you want those goods to move on a vessel 168 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 8: register to your country. Right, And it's really extremely common. 169 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 8: Eighty percent of the world's coastline is governed by some 170 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 8: former cabotage. 171 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 7: You see it in other industries. Right. 172 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 8: You can't take air China from New York to la Right. 173 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 8: So it's extremely common. 174 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 7: Across modes across the world. 175 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 8: But I love the Jones Act, and I love it 176 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 8: so much you can really I like to put the 177 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 8: reasons I like it into three categories. Economic security, national security, 178 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 8: and homeland security. Economic security is pretty obvious, right, because 179 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 8: of that US crew US owned requirement, It's created about 180 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 8: six hundred and fifty thousand jobs, six hundred and fifteen 181 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 8: thousand and one if you include Collins. And also all 182 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 8: those and all those jobs are for Americans, right, Those 183 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 8: Americans are paying taxes. Those companies are paying American taxes. 184 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 8: That economic security also includes self sufficiency, which especially matters 185 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 8: in our non contiguous trades, which I hope we get 186 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 8: into a little bit more. The men and women who 187 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 8: crew our Jones Act vessels are the exact same people 188 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 8: who crew our sealed vessels in time of emergency. Not 189 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 8: only that, but you also get a shipyard industrial base. 190 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 8: I've heard you all talk on the show. You all 191 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 8: well know that navy shipbuilding is really feast or famine, right. 192 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 8: There's a lot of unpredictability in that market, and so 193 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 8: the Jones Act is kind of a final line of 194 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 8: defense that ensures you do have some shipyard workers. You 195 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 8: have a shipyard industrial base that can be spun up 196 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 8: when needed. Third category is homeland security. 197 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 7: Right, that's pretty obvious. 198 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 8: You don't want to just open up our beautiful inland waterways, 199 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 8: our great lakes. 200 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 7: To the cheapest option. 201 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 8: The US flag that Colin mentioned matters quite a bit, right. 202 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 8: It means that our vessels are inspected by the Coastguard. 203 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 8: We know that they're not polluting and linking. It means 204 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 8: that the mariners are known by the Coastguard. They've gone 205 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 8: through background checks, they've been t trained to the highest 206 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 8: standard worldwide. And so you know, think about those inland waterways. 207 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 8: Those are you know, those run by stadiums, they run 208 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 8: by refineries, they run. 209 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 7: By personal homes. 210 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 8: You don't want to just have whoever there just because 211 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 8: they happen to be the cheapest and save a couple bucks. 212 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 3: Okay, but thank you first of all. 213 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 4: And I take your point about the six hundred and 214 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 4: fifty thousand jobs, but you know there's three hundred something 215 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 4: million Americans who aren't employed by the Jones Act per 216 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 4: Collins argument, paying more for any goods. Why should the 217 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 4: rest of US three hundred and thirty million Americans who 218 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 4: aren't employed, and me and Tracy maybe partially because it 219 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 4: comes up so often, who aren't Jones Act employed? What 220 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 4: about the cost of that? So why should we be 221 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 4: bearing that cost? 222 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 8: So I take it to the with the cost argument, right, 223 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 8: and I don't necessarily think that's true. You can look 224 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 8: at the US Virgin Islands, right, which does not have 225 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 8: the Jones Act, and compare prices there to Puerto Rico, 226 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 8: and you'll see that the Virgin Islands is actually more expensive. 227 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 8: And what matters to consumers isn't just cost anyway, right, 228 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 8: It's reliability. It's that stability in the marketplace and knowing 229 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 8: everybody is playing by the same set of rules, knowing 230 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 8: that shipment will show up, and that really matters. And also, 231 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 8: I would say the Jones Act doesn't involve any government dollars, right, 232 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 8: So the taxpayer is not paying to subsidize this fleet. 233 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 8: But if you got rid of the Jones Act, you 234 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 8: would have to eventually pay for those mariners, pay for 235 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 8: those shipyard workers, and make those investments. So the government's 236 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 8: going to pay for that regardless. So do you want 237 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 8: it to be taxpayer dollars or do you want it 238 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 8: to be ameliorated and sort of baked into something just 239 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 8: the cost of doing business in the United States. 240 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: I think it's helpful for these types of things to 241 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: think about the counterfactual sometimes. So I'm going to ask 242 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: both of you to respond to this question. But if 243 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: we got rid of the Jones Act tomorrow, waived a 244 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: magic maritime wand or whatever, and I went away, what 245 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: would the world look like? Let's do call in first. 246 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 6: Well, I think that's a great question, because the real 247 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 6: cost the Jones Act is not that it costs x 248 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 6: amount of dollars more to send a container to Puerto Rico. 249 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 6: It's what does the United States look like with the 250 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 6: Jones Act versus what does the United States look like 251 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 6: without the Jones Act? And the United States without the 252 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 6: Jones Act is a country that is better connected to 253 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 6: each other through more efficient supply chains. We can envision, 254 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 6: for example, right now, we make shipment of oil so 255 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 6: expensive that we export it all over the place, but 256 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 6: East Coast refineries will import it from say Nigeria or 257 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 6: Saudi Arabia instead of Texas because it's just not competitive 258 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 6: after you factor in the cost of shipping. Some goods 259 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 6: are impossible to ship within the United States because of 260 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 6: the Jones Act. With the United States is one of 261 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 6: the world's leading exporters of liquified petroleum gas basically propane. 262 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 6: Puerto Rico buys it from foreign sources. Phy buys it 263 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 6: from as far away as West Africa. Not because it's 264 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 6: more expensive. There are zero ships to transport. It's literally 265 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 6: impossible because of the Jones Act. We've seen examples of 266 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 6: lumber producers in Pacific Northwest saying, look, we go to 267 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 6: send our lumber to other parts of the United States. 268 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 6: We're getting beat out by Canadian competitors that can use 269 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 6: more efficient international shipping, so we're being put on the 270 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 6: back foot. We've seen government report side examples of steel 271 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 6: in the Western United States being purchased from Asia instead 272 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 6: of Eastern producers. Why because multiple times it says Jones 273 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 6: Act shipping makes it uncompetitive for Americans to sell to 274 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 6: other Americans. So we think about all the supply chains 275 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 6: that we better connected, all the efficiencies that would bring. 276 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 6: On the more micro level, you can think of, say, 277 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 6: ferry operators in Washington State that could buy ferries a 278 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 6: half a third of the cost of what they're paying 279 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 6: now to modernize their fleets and improve transportation. So I 280 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 6: think that the difference between the US as is versus 281 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 6: without the Jones Act, it would be a huge, huge gain. 282 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 7: Sara, I'm glad you asked that. 283 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 8: World without the Jones Act is a pretty scary place, right, 284 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 8: because I want you to remember the content. 285 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 7: I'm serious. I want you to think about the context 286 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 7: we're living in. Right. 287 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 8: The People's Republic of China has made a strategic decision 288 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 8: to overinvest in its own maritime capability. 289 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 7: They are deliberately. 290 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 8: Undermining the prices low bullying the prices for shipbuilding, for 291 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 8: shipping services, for ship to shore cranes. They want to 292 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 8: be the only provider out there, right, They want the 293 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 8: whole world to be dependent on them for shipping because 294 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 8: they know that is the backbone of commerce, right, is 295 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 8: how we transport these goods. So if we waive that 296 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 8: magic wand first off, so six hundred fifty thousand people 297 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 8: would be out of work, which would be a brain 298 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 8: on your taxpayers, right, so we would have to pay 299 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 8: for that. You would basically eliminate the American shipbuilding industry overnight. 300 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 8: Because even Japan, even South Korea cannot keep up with 301 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 8: Chinese subsidies. They're exiting the container ship market, they're exiting 302 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 8: other shipbuilding markets. So absolutely China would swoop in and 303 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 8: do that. You would also have ships of unknown provinces, right, 304 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 8: but they'd probably be owned by China through various shell 305 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 8: companies crewed by unbedded mariners, sailing moving hazardous materials at 306 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 8: best case, up and down our inland waterways past all 307 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 8: these soft targets. So if you wanted to keep that 308 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 8: security on the seas, right, you would have to I 309 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 8: don't know, quadruple the sides of the Coast Guard or 310 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 8: the CBP to do those vessel inspections right now that 311 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 8: you know, Coast Guard CBP you know, are active at 312 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 8: international courts, certain courts where foreign vessels can come and visit. 313 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 7: But you would have to really increase that. 314 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 8: I mean, keep in mind, the Coastguard is smaller than 315 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 8: the NYPD. They do not have the bandwidth to handle 316 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 8: all these unregistered ships that we don't know how safe 317 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 8: they are, we don't know how much they're polluting, you 318 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 8: don't know who's on there. I think it is very scary. 319 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 8: I was totally serious. 320 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 4: To Collins point about, you know, various entities within the 321 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 4: United States having the important you talked about national security 322 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 4: or economic security, and the fact that for like base commodities, 323 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 4: you know, for example, at times when there's a really 324 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 4: tough winter in New England that we can't ship LNG 325 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 4: from Houston to New England. Doesn't that create an economic 326 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: vulnerability for the US, the fact that we can't supply 327 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 4: ourselves with our own raw materials in certain instances. 328 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 7: So I don't think that's true. And I think that 329 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 7: your New England LNG example. 330 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 8: Is a really good one, right because what happens all 331 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 8: too frequently is the Jonzact becomes a cover and a. 332 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 7: Scapegoat for other policy failures. 333 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 8: Right, New England has an energy policy issue that I 334 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 8: love ships, But the cheapest, most efficient way to move 335 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 8: natural gas is as gas in a pipeline, right, if 336 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 8: they want, And so if they want, they also don't 337 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 8: have storage capacity, right, which means they cannot buy natural 338 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 8: gas during low season. They're only ever buying it at peak, 339 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 8: and their need is a radic so they don't have 340 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 8: a long term charter. They're buying it on the spot. 341 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 8: And what's really expensive about liquified. 342 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 7: Natural gas is that liquification. 343 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 8: So if you were to take gas out of Pennsylvania, 344 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 8: first you got to move it down a pipeline. You 345 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 8: got to liquify it and then move it and then 346 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 8: regasify it. And then you can only do this it's 347 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 8: very small amounts, right, which is going to be more 348 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 8: expensive because it really matters is that kind of volume. 349 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 8: So even if the transportation we're free, you're already looking 350 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 8: at having to charge quite a lot of money for 351 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 8: gas in New England, right, So even though it was free, 352 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 8: you still are going to bear that cost. So in 353 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 8: order for gas in New England to be cheap, you 354 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 8: would have to force energy producers and those kind of 355 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 8: liquifying facilities to do this at below market rate. 356 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 7: Right. 357 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 8: We're in a capitalist society, so people are going to 358 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 8: look for the cheapest option, and sometimes the cheapest option 359 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 8: is not going to be American. So the liquified natural 360 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 8: gas is a great example. 361 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: Colin, could I ask you to respond to the sort 362 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 2: of national security point, because when you hear statistics like 363 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 2: the Coast Guard is smaller than the New York Police Force, 364 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: that seems pretty worrying. 365 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 366 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 6: So a couple arguments that have been made here. One 367 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 6: is about the alleged danger of foreign ships and having 368 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 6: them in our waters. Folks. The choice here is not 369 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 6: do we let foreign ships into our waters? And do 370 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 6: we not? They're here, They're already here. You can go 371 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 6: out like marine traffic dot com. It will show you 372 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 6: all the ships in US waters. 373 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 3: You can find foreign. 374 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 6: Ships sailing up to Albany, New York. You can see 375 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 6: them sailing past Philadelphia, up to New Orleans, up to Sacramento. 376 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 3: That Jones. 377 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 6: That doesn't say you can't come into US waters. It 378 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 6: just regulates what you can do. Within US waters. So 379 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 6: they're here and talk about hazardous materials. I mean, they're 380 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 6: all the tankers coming out of Houston Corpus Christi with 381 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 6: energy products. I mean the vast majority are foreigns, so 382 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 6: they're already here. We have customs and border protection, we 383 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 6: have the Coastguard to inspect these vessels. They are subject 384 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 6: to port state control. So I find that a bit 385 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 6: of a red herring. With regard to the issue with China, 386 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 6: I find this ironic because Jones Act shipping companies are 387 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 6: some of the biggest patrons of Chinese shipyards. I mentioned 388 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 6: earlier that US built ships are incredibly expensive, you know, 389 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 6: four to five times more. Well, one result of this 390 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 6: is that people don't want to buy new ships, so 391 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 6: they keep old ships going for a long time. Internationally, 392 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 6: ships are used for twenty twenty five thirty years. The 393 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 6: last seventeen Jones Act ships they were scrapped had an 394 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 6: average age of like forty three. So they'd keep these 395 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 6: old ships running, and they do it by sending them 396 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 6: to China to get maintained a Chinese state owned shipyards. 397 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 6: And they turn around and use the money they save 398 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 6: from going to China instead of a US or an 399 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 6: allied shipyard and say, please keep the Jones Act in place. 400 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 6: It's really critical for a national security to stop China. 401 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 6: I mean, we're joking, but this is real life. I 402 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 6: mean two years ago at Jones Act shipping company Paytia, 403 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 6: they took a forty three year old ship built in 404 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 6: nineteen eighty and it was bill of steam power. So 405 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 6: instead of supporting US shipyards buying a new ship, no, no, no, 406 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 6: they sent to China, ripped out the steam power, put 407 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 6: in LNG, spent tens of millions of dollars to do so, 408 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 6: so we can keep running for years to come, and 409 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 6: then we tell ourselves it's all about national security. 410 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: Thing. 411 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 6: That's farcical. 412 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 4: Soda. 413 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 8: Shipyard repair and shipbuilding are two very distinct industries, and 414 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 8: you're correct we don't have the shipyard repair work in 415 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 8: the United. 416 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 7: States that we should have. I'm very glad. I'm not 417 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 7: a businessman. 418 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 8: I don't have to make these types of business decisions. 419 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 8: But frankly, you can't really get ship repair work done 420 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 8: even in our allies because China has low balled that 421 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 8: market so so much. 422 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 4: Why isn't they're more of a shipbuilding industry Given the 423 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 4: existence of the jones AC and the theoretical natural demand 424 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 4: or the theoretical demand that creates Why is shipbuilding so 425 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 4: meager in the United States? And why aren't they building 426 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 4: more Jones AC compliance ships right now given the evident scarcity. 427 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 8: Sure, so the reason you don't see as much shipping 428 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 8: as I would like is frankly because we've chosen as 429 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 8: a nation to make investments in other modes. Right if 430 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 8: shipping was subsidized in the same way that trucking was, right, 431 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 8: think about the high system, think about pipelines, think about 432 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 8: all these other areas where a lot of goods have moved. 433 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 8: So the shipbuilding market is right size for the Jones Act, right, 434 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 8: So we are, you know, right now? We build it 435 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 8: enough ships that we need for the jone deck market. 436 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 8: We don't scrap super easily like China does, because scrapping 437 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 8: is expensive and bad for the environment. So yeah, we 438 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 8: like to extend the useful life of our vessels as 439 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 8: much as possible. We don't do it scrap and rebuild 440 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 8: pricing scheme like China does, right, which is a big, 441 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 8: big part of it. And I wish that we did 442 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 8: build more ships for the international market. And I think 443 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 8: we may see a shift in that right, like from 444 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 8: the Ships for America Act and some other areas. But 445 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 8: what's really been happening is in the nineteen eighties, the 446 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 8: United States decide to step away from construction subsidies, which 447 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 8: are very very strong in the rest of the world. Right, 448 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 8: so the United States decides, We're not going to do 449 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 8: any more ship building subsidies. You have to build here, 450 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 8: but you know, you have to use American laws, American workers, 451 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 8: et cetera. 452 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 7: And at the same time that. 453 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 8: We did that, South Korea, Japan, Europe all invested trillions 454 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 8: in terms of subsidies, in terms of financial schemes and 455 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 8: other options. What China has done is really astounding. CSIS 456 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 8: has a new report out this year about how they're 457 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 8: just flooding the market with tonnage to try and drive. 458 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 7: Out all of their shipbuilders. 459 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 8: So you're seeing even our allies having to close their 460 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 8: shipyards and decrease their shipbuilding because of the unfair playing 461 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 8: field that's done by China. So if you say let's 462 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 8: get rid of the Jones at, let's get rid of 463 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 8: this US build requirement, you're basically throwing our shipyards to 464 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 8: the wolves, right and saying Okay, you keep fighting by 465 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 8: American rules. You have to pay minimum wage standards, you 466 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 8: had to have safety standards, and you have to go 467 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 8: fight against a shipyard in China where people don't even 468 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 8: have shoes on. Right, you know it's not a fair fight. 469 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 8: So if we were living in a perfect free market world, we'd. 470 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 7: Be having a different discussion. But we're not. Shipbuilding is 471 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 7: a strategic asset, all right. 472 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 2: I'm going to ask a sort of middle ground question 473 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: in an attempt to reconcile both positions. But let's say 474 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: you don't get to throw away the Jones Act, but 475 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: you get to make a change to it. And you 476 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 2: get to keep the Jones Act, but you have to 477 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: make a change to it. 478 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 5: Good question. 479 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: What would the response be, Zara, Let's start with you. 480 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 8: The change I would make to the Jones Act is 481 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 8: that I would add shipbuilding subsidies. 482 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 6: Okay, Colin, I would absolutely get rid of the US 483 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 6: build requirement. The notion that we promote I mean, forget 484 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 6: the economic effects here. Just the notion that we promote 485 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 6: a healthy maritime industry by forcing Americans be outrageous prices 486 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 6: for new ships is on its face absurd. We heard 487 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 6: talk earlier about what we needed to preserve ship building. Well, 488 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 6: how's that worked out? A GEO report last month referenced 489 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 6: the US shipbuild industry as in a state of near 490 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 6: total collapse. The Wallstreet Journal just last weekend article to 491 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 6: refer to the US shipbuilding industry is tiny and rusty. 492 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 6: In twenty twenty three, the most recent year for which 493 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 6: we have data, the US account for zero point one 494 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 6: percent of global shipbuilding output. I mean, obviously we're well 495 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 6: behind China, but folks, we're behind Norway, the Netherlands. I 496 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 6: think in twenty twenty two, we're behind Croatia. This is 497 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 6: the United States is one of the biggest manufacturers in 498 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 6: the world and incredibly inventive, dynamic economy, and this is 499 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 6: what we've been reduced to. It's shameful and it's an 500 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 6: indictment of what the Jones Act has done. 501 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 3: Well. 502 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 4: Actually, I want to ask you about this. Do you 503 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 4: accept I mean CATO I associate with like nod industrial 504 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 4: policy sort of true, less fair? Do you accept the 505 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 4: premise setting aside how we get there? Do you accept 506 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: the premise that the US should have more domestic ship building? 507 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 6: I think that we should have you know, I defer 508 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 6: to the national security experts what we should have, but 509 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 6: absolutely we should have it, and the Jones Act does 510 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 6: not give it to us. So I'm not against government 511 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 6: intervention per se. So, for example, I think we need ships. 512 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 6: I'm not against subsizing ships where the government says, here's 513 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 6: money in exchange and time of war, we get to 514 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 6: grab that ship and use that. 515 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 3: That makes sense to me. 516 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 6: You can cost benefit analysis, the X bunch money gets you, 517 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 6: you know this, many ships. We can't that with the 518 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 6: Jones Let's stop doing things that don't work and do 519 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 6: things that do work. 520 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,959 Speaker 8: So I would take issue with the fact that you 521 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 8: say that US shipbuilding is expensive. Shipbuilding is expensive, is 522 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 8: expensive everywhere. Our shipbuilding is right priced, right, everybody else 523 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 8: is cheating. Is kind of what's going on? Like all 524 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 8: these countries you mentioned have heavy subsidies, financial schemes. Look 525 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 8: at the two biggest cost drivers in shipbuilding are labor 526 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 8: and steel components, right, and so of course labor is 527 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 8: more expensive in the United States. That's true for every 528 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 8: American industry. Right, we have a higher standard of living, 529 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 8: we pay taxes. And then look at steel. The top 530 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 8: steel producer in the world is China. Do you think 531 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 8: that they are selling charting market prices for their steel. 532 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 7: No, of course not. 533 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 6: If I may so. I think there may be a 534 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 6: notion here that people think, okay, things are okay, and 535 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 6: then China came along, or you know, the US is okay, 536 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 6: and then South Korea came along and things were okay. 537 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 6: Then Japan came along. 538 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 3: Folks. 539 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 6: US shipbuilding has been internationally on competitive since the Civil War. Okay, 540 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 6: this is not something that happened recently. It's been going 541 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 6: and nobody is buying ships from Norway instead of the United 542 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 6: States because of the cheap wages. 543 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 3: That's absurd. 544 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 6: You know, there was an article I remember, like fifteen 545 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 6: twenty years ago that said that Dutch shipyards were building 546 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 6: ships at one third the US price and paying their 547 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 6: workers twenty to forty percent more. It's indefensible. 548 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 4: I actually there's a question about the jonesack that I've 549 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 4: had for a long time, and I want to get 550 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 4: your take on. 551 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 3: Colin. 552 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 4: We did this interview with John Arnold, the philanthropase. He 553 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 4: does a lot of stuff like with like policies, and 554 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: we asked some you know, we talked about like mb 555 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 4: stuff and highways and stuff and we're like, and Tracy said, well, 556 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 4: what do you think about the you know, would you 557 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 4: put any effort towards appealing the Jones Act. He's like, 558 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 4: I'm not even gonna try that. One's not going anywhere. 559 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 4: Can you describe to me six hundred and fifty thousand people? 560 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 4: I don't know, you know whatever, Why given the meager 561 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 4: size of the US shipbuilding industry, is it perceived that 562 00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 4: this law is so hard to dislike? 563 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: It seems like such a political hot for some reason. 564 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, So the question is why why is this laws 565 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 6: so difficult? Why does the remain in place despite my, 566 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 6: you know, criticism people like me? What I would submit 567 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 6: this is a tribute to the power of special interests. 568 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 6: You know, I can come up with off the time 569 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 6: ahead problems. 570 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 3: Apparently not a big one, I can both of you. 571 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 6: It's a small industry, yes, so, satura reference six hundred 572 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 6: fifty thousand jobs. That's based on a study that calculated 573 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 6: there were somewhere like ninety eight thousand jobs actually in 574 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 6: the domestic maritime industry. Each one of those has a 575 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 6: multiplier of like five, and you add those together and that's. 576 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 3: The theory that should make it even less of yeah. 577 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 6: I mean no, it's a small industry, right, so why 578 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 6: does the remain in place? And the dynamic is this, 579 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 6: there are any number of organizations dedicated to preserving the 580 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 6: Jones Act. There's an American Maritime Partnership where Sarah is also 581 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 6: what vice president, I believe, the Transportation Institute, the Lake 582 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 6: Care Association, of a Marine Service Association, the American Waterway 583 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 6: Operators and Marine Engineers Beneficial Association, Seafares International Union. I 584 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 6: go on and on. I can't think of any industry 585 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 6: in DC and association where task pro already one, two 586 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 6: or three is get rid of the Jones Act. In fact, 587 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 6: I've had conversations with folks where they say something like, look, 588 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 6: I hate the Jones Act. I think it hurts our industry. 589 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 6: But on my top ten list of issues, it's like 590 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 6: number four or five and versus one, two and three. 591 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 6: I need to support as senators that support the Jones Act. 592 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 6: And this is a dynamic you see over and over again. 593 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 6: It's concentrated benefits dispersed costs. The people that care the 594 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 6: most about the Jones Act, that think this is existential 595 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 6: to me are the people in the companies in the industry, 596 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 6: those and they allocate their resources accordingly. So it's just 597 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 6: it's you can find any number of ridiculous laws like 598 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 6: you sugar program, same basic dynamic. We see it over 599 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 6: and over and over again. 600 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: Sarah, I'm going to give you the chance to respond, 601 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: why are you so good at your job? 602 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 3: Now? 603 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 7: It's easy. The Jones Act is popular. 604 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 8: It's been popular with Republicans, it's popular with Democrats, It's 605 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 8: popular across administrations. It's also really popular with the United 606 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 8: States and military heads of transportation command militarily see if command. 607 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 7: The Navy have been. 608 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 8: Asked about this multiple times and they all find a 609 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 8: lot of value in it. They know that if you 610 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 8: didn't have that, we would see our shipbuilding capability and 611 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 8: most importantly, we would lose those mariners. Right, These mariners 612 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 8: that crew these sealerships, they need time at sea to 613 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 8: train to be ready to move up in their ratings. Right, 614 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 8: So they need that work as well so they can 615 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 8: be called upon when they need and they answer the call. 616 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 8: They've answered the call many many times. You know, in 617 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 8: every war you've had a merchant rain component and it's critical. 618 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 8: So it's successful because it's popular, it's well loved, like 619 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 8: it's a extreme, it's extremely effective. Like I said, you're 620 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 8: going to pay these costs regardless, So do we want 621 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 8: to spread it out? We're all in this society here, 622 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 8: we all share, we all enjoy these benefits. The savings 623 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 8: that Colin is talking about is a rounding error. You know, 624 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 8: the reason laws don't exist just to save us money? Right, 625 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 8: that's not the old That's not how you determine if 626 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 8: a law is good or not. Does it save people 627 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 8: a couple of pennies or let's be real, does it 628 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 8: shave shippers a couple of pennies? 629 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 7: Right? 630 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 8: Like, even if Collin's cost arguments are accurate, are those 631 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 8: cost savings going to be passed down to the consumer? 632 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 3: I mean, costs are costs. 633 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: I don't know. All right, we could go on and 634 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: on and on, but a big round of applause for 635 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: these two. It's not easy to come on stage and 636 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: debate these sakes. 637 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 5: So thank you, Thank you so much, Tracy. 638 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 4: I'm so glad we finally did the Jones Zach episode. 639 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 4: And to be honest, it actually fulfilled all of my 640 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 4: hopes and wishes for the episode. 641 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: That's good. Did it change your mind at all? 642 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 4: Did it change my mind. I mean that presupposes that 643 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 4: I had an opinion. 644 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 2: I guess what you don't have opinions? 645 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 4: Well, I guess what I would say is that, at 646 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,959 Speaker 4: least if we think that shipbuilding in the US is important, 647 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 4: and I think I am convinced of that the Jones Act, 648 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 4: our current structure is clearly not sufficing. 649 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would broadly agree with that, because if you 650 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: look at I guess it's sort of the proof is 651 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: in the pudding, right, if you look at the outcome 652 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: of the Jones Act, it hasn't actually been that successful 653 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: in terms of American shipbuilding. One funny thing, right before 654 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 2: we recorded this, we asked the audience who was in 655 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: favor of the Jones Act and who was against it? 656 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: And I swear like it was pretty evenly split. But 657 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 2: also everyone in the audience raised their hand at one 658 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: point or another. Yeah, everyone held an opinion on the 659 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: Jones Act. 660 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 4: I know, it is really polarizing. And I thought, like 661 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 4: our guests, like, you know, I didn't wanted to. I 662 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 4: did a good job of having it be kind of 663 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 4: heated intents on stage. Of course, it is like very 664 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 4: civil and a good conversation. But I thought from listening 665 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 4: to Colin and Sada that you know, you actually got 666 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 4: a pretty good sense of how strongly the opposite sides 667 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 4: feel about this, like very old law. 668 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, totally. It was a great rundown of like 669 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: the arguments for and against for sure, all right, shall 670 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: we leave it there. 671 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 3: Let's leave it there. 672 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the ad Thoughts Podcast. 673 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and. 674 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 4: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 675 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 4: Follow our guests Colin Grabow he's at CP GRABO, and Sadafrentis. 676 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 4: Actually she's not on X probably wisely, but you can 677 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 4: follow the Transportation Institute at trans Underscore. I NST follow 678 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 4: our producers Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman Arma, Dash Ol Bennett 679 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 4: at dashbod and Keil Brooks at Cale Brooks. More Odd 680 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 4: Thoughts content go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots. 681 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 4: We have all of our episodes in the daily newsletter, 682 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 4: and you can shout about all of these topics, including 683 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 4: plenty more Jones Zach talk in our discord dot gg 684 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 4: slash lots. 685 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 2: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you want us 686 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: to do more debates. Then, please leave us a positive 687 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you 688 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 2: are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of 689 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 2: our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do 690 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow 691 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: the instructions there. Thanks for listening.