WEBVTT - The Next Bitcoin Shock No One Sees Coming | Pierre Rochard 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.720 Bitcoin is better money than anything else out there. There 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:08.240 is a speculative attack happening of people borrowing fiat currencies 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.640 in order to buy bitcoin. Based on the fundamentals, bitcoin 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.360 is going to surprise to be upside then to the downside. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.600 If you invest in a bitcoin treasury company that has 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.599 levers wong bitcoin and is increasing stats per share over 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.919 the longer run, it could potentially. 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:24.480 Have perform Bitcoin. 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.640 But over the short run and with bad management. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.000 How should we as bitcoinners be thinking about and working 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:37.280 with government? Yes, so here, thanks for joining us. 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:39.680 Hey, thanks for having me Mark, Thanks for being flexible. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:41.640 Maybe kind of work around this, but I really wanted 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:42.800 to sit down face to face. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:44.839 I think the first time I met you was I 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:45.600 can bit. 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.159 Block boom, they can like twenty nineteen. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:49.239 Maybe that sounds all right. 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.960 Yeah, you've been all in on bitcoin at least since 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.120 twenty fourteen. I want to ask about that. I started 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.560 buying bitcoin twenty fifteen and I was like, oh my gosh, 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:58.400 I have to tele a bowl world about it. And 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:03.200 then I found crypto and right around twenty nineteen was 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:04.560 by I foun mc kim on the other side of it, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:06.000 and I was like, all right, I've done. I've done 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.120 my time in crypto, this bic one on the to 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.760 bitlock boom, I remember that. But you stayed bitcoin only 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.399 twenty fourteen. You co founded the One Institute. So how 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.600 did you one get into bitcoin and then manage to 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:19.440 stay firm? 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:24.800 Yeah, So already in high school I was really interested 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.720 in open source software and sound money, and so I 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.959 was like a golden silver bug type person reading Austrian economics, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.160 reading Murray Rothbard, thinking about like hundred center reserve banking, 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.959 even thinking about how you could actually have something better 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.319 than gold that like, could we'll just have a fixed supply. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:50.320 But that was just kind of a thought because obviously 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.840 I didn't think that there was any way to like. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.520 Actually have that in the real world. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.520 But I was just kind of because Austrian economists will 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.920 theorize about well, what's the right amount of money, and 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.840 it's like, well, just any amount of money works well, 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.520 but ideally you want to have it fixed, and you know, 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.560 to the extent that gold can can try to get there, 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.080 it's better than government, you know, few currencies. But in 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:18.240 any case, when I first heard about bitcoin and really 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.360 went down the rabbit hole of the fixed supply twenty 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:23.920 one million. This is like the end of twenty twelve. 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:29.080 I was in grad school getting my master's in accounting, 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.240 and you know, it would have been great if I 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.160 had been like, you know, mister Sailor with like five 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:40.040 hundred million dollars on the bouance sheet but in the conviction. 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.240 But no, I was a broke college student, you know, 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:47.400 cruing a student loan debt, so unintelligent leverage. But in 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.400 any case, what interested in me wasn't so much the 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.480 idea of like getting rich quick. It was really about 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:59.400 the ideological nature of this, which is that for decades 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.240 Liberty Harrian's had been complaining about Siah currency ever since. 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.440 Really you know, we went off the gold standard from near. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:11.280 Nixon, but even before that, Roosevelt and I didn't really 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:13.399 they bother about. 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.480 Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, But I didn't really see a 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.480 path of how do we get from here to there 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.200 other than just calamity and chaos. 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.280 Of like the Fiat systems that blows up, self destructs, 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.360 everybody's like starving in the streets, and we finally are 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.520 back to jo Yeah, yeah, exactly, which you know, like 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:36.000 I'm a big believer. 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:37.000 In the ends. 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.200 Do not justify the means and said to me, it 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.720 was like, wow, there's anything we can do to avoid 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:42.960 that that would be really great. 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:43.680 Uh. 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.360 And bitcoin came along, and I think that the the 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.480 key difference in my mind between bitcoin and gold was 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:55.120 that we could upgrade to bitcoin and it's not like 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.720 whereas with gold, like we based our downgrading to gold 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:00.760 because something bad has happened. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.200 We can upgrade to bitcoin and. 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.640 Not have if something bad happen to the dollar. Now, 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:07.960 of course, like if something bad does happen to the dollar, 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.920 you can foresee it accelerating bitcoin adoption, but I would 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.680 actually argue that it would really accelerate gold and silver adoption. 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:20.520 Maybe that's what we're seeing currently and that there's still 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:25.000 a process of education for people to realize that bitcoin 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.760 is better money than anything else out there. So yeah, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.400 that was my introduction to it, and that's what you know. 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:37.720 I remember early twenty thirteen, we're having these conversations about bitcoin. 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.200 Somebody else in our group is like, oh, have you 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.440 heard of light cooin? And then on Facebook as. 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.200 Well, I started hearing questions about light cooin and I 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.360 didn't have an opinion on it, so I was like, Okay, well, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.359 I'm going to go research what's going on here, and 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:56.400 they're saying that the advantages that has faster confirmation lives silver. 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.360 Correct, So already that argument is silver bitcoin's gold. It 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:05.360 was like immediately debunked in my mind by the divisibility 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.320 of bitcoin. And so it's like, well, SATs are the 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:12.240 silver to beatc's gold, right that you can split it 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.279 up into a very And so I didn't like that 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.680 they used that that that Freeman because already in my 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.800 mind I was like, well, that's not even true. So 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.640 really this is just a method of almost like psychological 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.960 manipulation through metaphor. And then the faster confirmation times I 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.840 found out that actually that didn't even matter either, because 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.520 you get the same amount of finality over an hour 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.719 that you get either with either protocol and so and 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.800 then they would never come back with like a really 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.520 compelling counter argument, and that's when I started. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.280 Becoming a toxic Maximore stuff. 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.039 Like, Okay, why is it that every time I come 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.360 back with an argument against their thing, they're not happy 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.520 about it, and that they're they're pumping their back, they're 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.240 not really like engaging in something you know, substantive. So 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.920 and also just from the sound money aspect of it, 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:12.000 where it's like, none of this works if we're basically saying, oh, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.599 we're going to keep expanding the money supply throughout coins. 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.800 So I just felt like a very strong bias against 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:23.240 that that if you The last point is really un 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.520 monetary economics, which is that there's always been this debate 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:31.120 about value versus utility, and so a long time ago 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.599 it was the banking school versus the currency school in 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.680 Great Britain, and so when when thinking about the utility 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.440 of money, like Akanesians are like, it's about spending it, right, 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.560 it's about the velocity of it, and you want to 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.760 have liquidity and just money slashing around the system, and 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.240 the Austrians were very much in the mindset of no, actually, 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.880 there's a lot of value in saving and holding money, 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.000 and that gives you optionality. It's the option value of 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.560 money that if you try to inflate people out of 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:07.200 holding money, then you're yeah, you're you're creating a short 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.680 term stimulative effect, but you're actually taking away a very 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.720 important tool for investors in the economy to be able 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.400 to hold cash and to wait for good opportunities. 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:21.440 Yeah, it's interesting to hear that at the at the 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.800 New York unconfience where I was a week ahead to go. 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.600 You said something online. I saw Michael Sailor a chuckle 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.960 from and you said. I think you said something like 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.040 I've learned most of my stuff just from arguing online. 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.760 You're sort or something like that. And so to your point, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.360 like kind of arguing or or going back forward with 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.280 the likelying guys back then, and so you've been really 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.320 good at that and just sort of like hashing it 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.520 out online that really well, I was like more of 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.560 tech guy. So I built up two different tech companies 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.160 and had some exits on that and so but then 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:51.960 in two thousand and eight I wiped out and I 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:53.800 was like, what's this whole financial system? I have to 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.000 go figure that out. And I quickly found out about 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.480 the FIAT system, the debt based system, and I'd beat 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.160 a bullbot also. So I also got bitcoin pretty quickly 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.080 because I was really aware of what the problem was 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.160 and you know, having seening Fiat and being a bullbug. 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:09.680 But then I still fell down the tech rabbit hole. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.880 You know, it's maybe it's maybe it is blockchain, and 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.320 maybe we do need all these different ledgers and so anyway, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.040 a good job on that, I think, you know, I'm 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:18.760 sure you would agree. A lot of times people don't 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.840 understand bitcoin because they don't understand the problems. So the 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.000 don't understand the solutions that I solved, and I came 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.520 at it from a different problem solution a little bit 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:27.880 maybe then use you a little bit more on the 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.800 austream monetary side, where I was more a little bit 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:31.880 on the tech side, even though we both saw FIAT 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.600 as the problem. So either way, but you had some 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.240 really early predictions, one of which was in twenty fourteen 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.880 calling for the speculative attack, right, and even when I 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:44.840 heard about that years ago, it was still kind of early. 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.240 And of course we can look through history and see, 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.240 you know, Hugo Stine's in Wymar Republic doing things like this. 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.120 Where did you, I guess, pick up that and think 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:56.720 that was going to happen in the bitcoin space. 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:04.280 Yeah, So it's really from hearing about I think it 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.720 was a lecture by Hans Hermann Happa where he's pointing 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.680 out that there are mechanisms by which currencies compete against 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.760 each other in the international market, and so as libertarians 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:20.280 like we're often like, oh, FIAT currencies are you know, uh, 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.000 they're banked by the military. And you'll hear like charliston 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.600 you know kntans to say this as well, like the 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.719 value is banked by the military and some capacity, and 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.080 you know, there's there's truth to that and that like 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.800 if if your country gets invaded, like your currency gainst zero, 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.920 So there's truth in that. But but they can't prop 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.360 up the value of currency, and certainly not when it 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.920 comes to competing on four x markets, right, so like 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.440 you've never seen a headline of oh Trump deployed the troops, 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:53.120 like the dollars up five percent, Like that's not a thing. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:54.000 Uh. 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.640 The way that they compete in international money markets is 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:05.680 true interest rates and through capital controls and through currency reserves, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.280 and so those are kind of the three tools that 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:16.400 they use to coordinate devaluation amongst FIAC currencies. Unfortunately, it's 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.559 very rare that they coordinate revaluation of you know, increasing 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.480 the value of currencies. 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.840 And that when you look then at. 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.920 What are currency speculator's role in this, because ultimately all 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.600 of these levers that the currency issuer has, they only 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.240 have an effect to the extent that market participants are 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.439 on the other side of the trade. And so if 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.720 you look at the history of devaluations, there's cases like 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:52.280 Southeast Asia in the late nineties and then most famously 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.680 or Soros and the Bank of England and the British 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.480 pound with where they were trying to manage the exchange 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.079 rate of the British pound to enter into a stability 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:07.520 of the Eurozone. And that the person on the ground 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:12.000 was Scott Bessant in London who was orchestrating, you know, 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.440 some of their their speculations, which is basically to say 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.160 that if you have a weak currency like the British 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.440 pound and a strong currency like the Deutsche Mark, that 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:27.280 you can borrow in the weak currency borrow pounds, sell 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.600 the pounds for Deutsche mark, so that you're shorting the pound, 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.319 shorting one fiat currency against another, and that is the 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.040 deutsch mark appreciates and value. Then you can go back 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:43.680 and repay that pound denominated liability the borrow and have 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:44.280 a profit. 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:45.000 And so. 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:53.720 The that that's really how currency values come into equilibrium 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:55.440 against each other and kind of like you get to 0:11:55.480 --> 0:12:00.760 a point where supplying demand is reflective. Now, of course 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:05.880 the policymakers, they have their own agendas behind them, and 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.400 so you know, if they don't want this to happen, 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.400 what they have to do in the case of the 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.679 British pound is like, for example, raised interest rates so 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.400 that borrowing British pounds becomes more expensive, and so it 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.800 undermines the economics of that trade. 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:24.560 Paul Krugman famously. 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.920 You know, obviously he's become a political hack, but a 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.079 long time ago he was a legitimate economist. Keith popularized 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.480 his term of speculative attack. I think it's pejorative because 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:37.920 ultimately he doesn't like speculative. 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.040 Attacks because they impose fiscal and. 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.160 Monetary discipline on governments and saying like, hey, you can't 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:48.839 like go full Stephanie Kelton money printer. You actually have 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.680 constraints that are put on you by you know, the 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.160 bond traders and the currency speculators and these giant you know, 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:57.760 macro hedge funds. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:12:59.800 And so fast. 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.280 For today, I think that's what's happening is that in 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:08.040 a very interesting format, there is a speculative attack happening 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:13.040 of people borrowing fiat currencies in order to buy bitcoin, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:19.319 and that today fiat currencies have to tighten their monetary 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:25.000 policy to be more aligned with bitcoin, otherwise they're going 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.920 to continue to invite this kind of trade. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.400 And now we're seeing that start to happen faster and 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.240 faster and faster. It's the arbitrage trade, it's the carry trade. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.120 We kind of see it play out in different different 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.880 areas all over the place. I want to dive into that, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.800 but before we do, I guess, you know, kind of 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.440 retracing some of this. So, like you came from the 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.160 financial side of things, and you've studied the financial markets. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.480 You understand the specultive attack and the way these financial 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:56.040 markets work. Talking about sort of like these battle of ideas. 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:00.200 How you've been always engaging people in open debate. Good, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.439 I wouldn't want to debate you. But it seems like today, 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.120 maybe maybe it's a function of the industry growing, but 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.240 it seemed like people that came to bitcoin early maybe 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.000 were a little bit more principled. They came for one 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.400 reason or another. I lost my money, I had to 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.320 go find a solution. A sound money supply worked for me. 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:20.080 You were censored, a cipherpunk whatever it is. Today, it 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.000 seems like we have a lot of people in that 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.040 maybe don't understand how the world works. From a bunch 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.720 of different angles, specifically right now about the financialization aspect 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.560 of it. So a lot of bitcoiners think that bitcoin 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.320 ends financialization and like Wall Street's not necessary because we 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.240 can just save our money and it all goes away. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.160 I mean, do you see that? And if so, how 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:42.000 would you counter that? 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.160 Every day we see headlines about inflation and dead and 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:46.680 diminishing control over. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:47.600 Our own money. 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.080 That's why I always come back to bitcoin, because let's 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.160 go for generations, It's go for legacy. 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.239 But protecting your bitcoin legacy the right way. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.600 Is not always simple. It demands discipline, focus and the 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.120 right partner. 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Just 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.240 use code Moss ten at checkout to get ten percent off. 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:56.840 Your first year. 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.720 Because your bitcoin isn't just for life, it's for generations. 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:06.560 Yes, so bitcoin gives you that option to uh not 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.240 have to invest in stocks and bonds, or in real 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.200 estate or in small businesses like that, you have the 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.520 option to just save bitcoin. And I think that that 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.360 itself has been very attractive for me and for lots 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:28.360 of others out there who see stocks and bonds and 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.760 real estate and all of all these asset classes that 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.440 you know are tied in with Wall Street is. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.440 Basically overvalued relative to bitcoin. 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:42.800 And so I think that thesis can be true, and 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.680 that then when you think about the financialization of bitcoin, 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:52.960 it's like, in that set of circumstances, could you really 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.640 expect Wall Street to do anything other than try to 0:16:55.720 --> 0:17:00.080 adopt bitcoin, like you think that they're not going to 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:00.600 act in. 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.160 Their self interests, right. 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.960 You know, this is the place where like famously Gordon 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:06.600 Gecko is like greed is good. 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:07.320 Right. 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.520 If you really think that bitcoin is the best performing 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.800 asset historically and going forward, then you should fully expect 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:18.120 Wall Street. 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.120 To just go all in on bitcoin. And I think 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.000 that there's part of it is. 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.280 A concern that Wall Street is going to co opt bitcoin, right, 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:28.800 and Blackstone is going to go in there and. 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.120 They're gonna like change the rules and they're. 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.960 Gonna muck it up and and and maybe with an 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.880 neferious ultimate end of just destroying bitcoin or more benign 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:43.440 of like advancing their own interests and that undermining bitcoin, right, 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.879 So like trying to get everybody to custody with you know, 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.160 the ETF and like try. 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.240 To just clamp down on the ecosystem and control it. 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.640 Yeah. Yeah, I think it's the opposite. 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:01.720 So I think that Blackrock, Fidelity, all of the other 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.879 financial institutions that are embracing bitcoin, they are joining the 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.760 bitcoin network, and really I see it as like they 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.639 are finding how to integrate with bitcoin, not how to 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.840 integrate bitcoin into their world. And so when I look 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:24.359 at like, so we have to start with the idea 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.040 that like sixty one oh two executive order means that 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.479 these are giant honey pots of bitcoin that you can 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:35.720 get seized by the government when when the crisis arises, 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.119 right when the time is right. I think that that 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.119 is a huge risk, and that the only way to 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.920 interact that risk is through lobbying. I actually don't think 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.480 that it's as effective as people think to say, oh, 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.679 if we all self custody, that we can avoid sixty 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.960 one oh two, because ultimately, if even if you self custody, 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.439 at some point, you want to do something with us 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.400 bitcoin right, right, like you want to pay for your 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:10.280 kids vacation to Disney World, and you know that basically 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.159 if you take the bitcoin addicult storage, there's no exchanges 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.240 to bring them to, right. 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.720 You might have like a bitcoin guy. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.600 On the street who you know could exchange, right, yeah, 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:24.640 but like do you really you know, want to take 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:29.400 out like fifty grand, you know, And so then suddenly 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.399 you're in a situation where sixty one or two affect 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.440 you even if you're self custodying. And so even if 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.159 you are a self custody MAXI, I think that you 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:42.200 want to be engaged in politics so that not only 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.640 did you avoid that outcome, but you create a better 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:48.919 outcome of Hey, no capital gains taxes on your bitcoin, right, 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:50.960 you don't even need a KYCML when you take the 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.399 medical storage. And so I think that we want to 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:58.040 be engaged with the policy making process to advocate for 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.280 the best outcome. And I think that the more financialization 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.720 of bitcoin there is that it's it's great to have 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.520 black Rock and Fidelity and micro Strategy and anybody else 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:18.840 hiring lobbyists and like getting bitcoiners in the room to 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.000 advocate for these policies that are good for everyone. Right, 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:26.280 They're good for the treasury companies, they're good for the miners, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.960 they're good for the publicly traded companies, for the financial institutions, 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.959 and for the self custodied PLB who just wants to 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:35.560 you know, pay for his kids vacation. 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:38.240 Yeah. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:39.960 I mean, the financial industry is one of the biggest 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.040 lobbying groups out there, so of course it is right, Well, 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.200 we can get the pharmaceutical companies to put it under. 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:48.080 Balance sheets that my health out too, but we won't 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:48.600 even about that. 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.080 But so I would agree with you on that, but 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:54.240 it seems like maybe there's a lot of people that 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:59.000 don't understand capitalism. Then so they think that again, right, 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.080 all this financial stuff goes away. So you're a grifter 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.600 if you're going to help these companies raise money? 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:06.800 How dare you? Don't you know? People should just go 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:08.240 hoddle their bitcoin on a hill? 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:13.479 Right, So I think there's that, and then almost they 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.680 want to dictate how bitcoin should be used. 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:21.000 Yeah, so okay, so I think that part of it 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:22.159 is just we. 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:23.440 Don't need to call it any names, but you know 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:24.200 who we're talking about. 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.719 Yeah, the CAF dependency of like a lot of OG's 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.720 saw what happened with mount Gox, and so when you 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:37.000 think about it probabilistically from like an actuarial table perspective, 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.280 if you were really scarred by Mount Gox, like you 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:46.200 have a very set like list of best practices about 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.600 how you can survive with your bitcoin, and you could. 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.639 Also say Tara Luna and Celsius and and all that. 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:57.439 Yes, But then also like even if you held a coinbase, 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.119 I've heard the stories of people struggling to get at 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.639 their bitcoin out of coinbase because of kycaml right of like, Okay, 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.280 now they've got additional verification all of that, and so 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.000 I completely understand and you know, like this is from 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:15.000