1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: One small programming note. From next week, Zero will be 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: reporting from Charmel Shake in Egypt, where a COP twenty seven, 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: the biggest climate meeting of the year, will be happening. 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero, I'm Aukshatarati. This week eight pumps hot, 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: air and underground negotiations. The United States fancies itself a 6 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: global climate leader, yet the past ten years of its 7 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: climate policy have been tumultuous. Just look at the Paris 8 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Agreement in twenty fifteen. The Obama administration signed it. In 9 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, Trump withdrew. Then in twenty twenty one, Biden 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: brought the US back, and it seemed for a while 11 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: that was as far as the US would go in 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: meeting science based climate targets. But then the Inflation Reduction 13 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: Act past in August, and it has the potential to 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: bring the US closer to meeting its climate targets than 15 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: any other policy has done so far. There's also a 16 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: chance that the domestic policies under the IRA may even 17 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: cut emissions around the world by lowering the cost of 18 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: green technologies. It's significant to note that the Act was 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: not supported in any shape or formed by Biden's opposition. 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: The Republican Party. I remember every single Republican and Congress 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: voted against this bill, every single one voting against tackling 22 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: the climate crisis, against lowering our energy cast, against creating 23 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: good paying jobs. On past episodes, I've spoken with Bill 24 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: Gates and investor Gabriel kra about the IRA's effect on 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: business and technology. For this episode, I wanted to talk 26 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: to someone with a hand in shaping the act, the 27 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: politics behind it, and why it might survive whatever comes 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: in the United States. What political research shows is that 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: when you pass a law, it becomes pretty sticky. So 30 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: once we have companies building heat pumps in the United 31 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: States and solar panels and electric vehicles, including in Republican districts, 32 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: they're going to say, what do you mean you're going 33 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: to get rid of this policy. We need this policy. 34 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: We're making a lot of money and employing people. My 35 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: guest today is doctor Leah Stokes, Professor of politics and 36 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: political science at the University of California, Santa Barbara. She 37 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: also hosts a climate podcast called A Matter of Degrees 38 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: with doctor Catherine Wilkinson. I talked to Leah about her 39 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: contributions to drafting the IRA. How next week's midterm elections 40 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: could affect its success and if it will help the 41 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: United States return or maybe arrive at a place of 42 00:02:47,880 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: prominence in climate diplomacy. Leah, welcome to the show. Oh, 43 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me on. Now I'm 44 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: going to ask you like a really big, broad scene 45 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: setting question. Joe Biden and the Democrats were elected two 46 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: years ago partly because Americans did not want a Trump 47 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: presidency again, but also partly because many progressives wanted to 48 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: see climate legislation, and in Joe Biden they saw somebody 49 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: who could push for it. Two years on, there's a 50 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: mitem election coming. How would you rate the Biden administration's 51 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: work on climate from zero to ten? I think I 52 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: give them a nine. I think that we've seen more 53 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: progress under the Biden administration than any other presidency in 54 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: American history. So, you know, it's absolutely been transformative. But 55 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: of course we're also comparing it to a lot of 56 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: failure overall. Right, the Obama administration made great efforts. They 57 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: passed the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act, which was basically 58 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: the stimulus Bill during the financial crisis way back in 59 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. That law had about ninety billion 60 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: dollars for climate. Fast forward to this year, twenty twenty two, 61 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: and the Biden administration managed to pass the Inflation Reduction Act, 62 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: which has something like three hundred and seventy billion dollars 63 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: for climate, so a lot more money, you know, four 64 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: times more, But that's actually an underestimation of how much 65 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: money will be spent because a lot of it is 66 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: in tax credits, and those tax credits can be spent 67 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: in unlimited amounts. So basically, when we say it's three 68 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy billion, that comes from an estimate from 69 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: these bodies called the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint 70 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: Committee on Taxation. Basically, they're these bodies that make a 71 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: guess for how much money can be spent, but they're 72 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: not going to guess right. We're going to spend way 73 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: more money in these long term tax credits. So we 74 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: could be seeing you know, five one hundred billion dollars. 75 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: Maybe if we're lucky, we could get close to a 76 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: trillion dollars on climate spending. Nine out of ten. Now 77 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: that's a high ranking, you think, So very few politicians 78 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: get to be able to pull that off where they 79 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: promised something and then an analytical take on their work 80 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: gives them a nine. Well, you know, I think the 81 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: Biden administration made a couple of really good decisions. They 82 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: created a Climate Office in the White House for the 83 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: first time. There are a lot of executive orders that 84 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: maybe have flown under the radar with folks, but that 85 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: are really mainstreaming climate action throughout the government. You know, 86 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: maybe I should take it down to an eight or 87 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: something like that, because one area where the Biden administration 88 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 1: has been slower than we would have hoped is implementing regulations. 89 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: The reason why I am sympathetic to that delay is 90 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: because I think strategically they were waiting for the big 91 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: climate legislation to make its way through Congress to get 92 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: senators vote. This is a senator from a coal state 93 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: who did not really want to act on climate, and 94 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: when they got his vote, I think that will allow 95 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: them to really push much farther and faster on getting 96 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: those regulations going. If you could sum up the IRA 97 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: almost like a movie pitch, how would you do it? 98 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: A trailer? I actually, rather than watch whole movies. This 99 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: is maybe why I'm so productive. I watched movie trailers. 100 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: I watch a lot of movie trailers because you can 101 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: basically get the whole movie in like two and a 102 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: half minutes, right, I mean, that's most movie trailers. So 103 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: that's my secret to productivity. So you should you should 104 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: be able to come with the perfect trailer for the IRA. Yes, hopefully. 105 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: If I fail, if people will be like terrible, don't 106 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: give this woman a job writing movie trailers. The Inflation 107 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: Reduction Act is about three hundred and seventy billion dollars 108 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:55,119 Speaker 1: in transformative investments to build the twenty first century clean 109 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,119 Speaker 1: energy industries here in the United States, to help people 110 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: manufacture and get good paying jobs and the manufacturing of 111 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: everything from electric vehicles to heat pumps to solar panels. 112 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: The list goes on. It's really a lot of industrial 113 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: policy all throughout the bill. There are incentives that if 114 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: you build it here, you build it with good paying jobs, 115 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: you get extra incentive to do that. There's also enormous 116 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: amounts of money to deploy clean energy technologies, whether at 117 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: the household level through incentives for electric vehicles, heat pumps, 118 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: even induction stoves to make it cheaper for everyday Americans 119 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: to get clean energy technologies and reduce their energy bills. 120 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: And also for companies to deploy these technologies through these 121 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: long term tax credits to build wind and solar and batteries, 122 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: no lightsabers that would destroy fossil fuel burning equipment. Well, 123 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: there's also money to help retire dirty coal plants. There's 124 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: probably about fifteen billion dollars in this bill to transition 125 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: from dirty power plants to clean Energy's something that's kind 126 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: of been under the radar, but money for rural coops 127 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: to get off of coal, to retire their debt, and 128 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: to move to clean energy. And I would be remissed 129 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: if I didn't talk about that this policy is more 130 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: equitable than climate policy has really ever been, maybe even 131 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: across other countries. That there is an enormous amount of 132 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: money not just through tax credits to help rich people 133 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: get these technologies, but through programs and grants to help 134 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: low moderate income folks get these technologies. And you know, 135 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: the Biden administration has made a commitment to Justice forty, 136 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: which is that forty percent of the benefits of this 137 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: program need to go to disadvantaged communities, including low income 138 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: communities and communities of color. So there's for example, three 139 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: billion dollars for environmental justice grants to help communities engage 140 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: in the process and invest in decarbonization projects that they 141 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: want to do. There's another three billion dollars to clean 142 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: up ports. If the IRA was a movie, it'd be 143 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: hard to do a movie trailer because there's so many 144 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: moving parts. We have even talked about agriculture. There's also 145 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: like twenty billion dollars for agriculture, climate spar agriculture, so 146 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: big bill. It's very complicated. There's probably like I don't know, 147 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: fifty plus programs, but I also still want to take 148 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: one step back on a philosophical level and discuss climate 149 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: policy writ large. There are many ways to do it. 150 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: There are many pieces that need to go in the 151 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: right place for it to work. But if we look 152 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: at climate policy outside of the United States, there is 153 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: typically a stick involved, which is there's a carbon price. 154 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: Canada has one, there's cabin trade emissions Europe and the 155 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: UK has one. Alongside all these incentives given to people 156 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: to build clean technologies. There may be tax credits, there 157 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: may be actual direct money given in the form of 158 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: subsidy to be able to build an offshore wind power plant, 159 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: But it's the kerat and stick play that really makes 160 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: it work. You know, most people think of stick in regulation, bomb, 161 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: here's a mandate you have to build this much. There's 162 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: some of that in the US, But when it comes 163 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: to this new climate bill, it's all carrots. How do 164 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: you feel about that as a route to doing climate policy? 165 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: Will it work in the long term? Well, a few things. 166 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: There are sticks in the bill. There's a methane fee, 167 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: for example, which you can think of as a carbon 168 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: price specifically on methane. Some folks wanted to put a 169 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: carbon price in it as well. I think if we 170 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: look at American politics, the price of oil, the price 171 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: of gasoline at the pump is very important to how 172 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: the Democrats do, and just raising the price of energy 173 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: is not really a very politically smart thing to do. 174 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: So personally, I don't think that a stick forward approach 175 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 1: is actually the smartest thing to do, particularly in the 176 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: United States, but really in most countries. There's something like 177 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: twenty to twenty five percent, if I'm correct, of global 178 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: carbon pollution that's priced right now, And yet are we 179 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: dramatically reducing our carbon pollution globally? No, we are not. 180 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: The thing is that the carbon price that you can 181 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: pass politically is usually very low. It does not change behavior. 182 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: People's choice to fill up their car or not is 183 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: not going to be changed really by increasing the price 184 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: of oil slightly. Instead, what's going to change is that 185 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: they're going to get mad at you because now it's 186 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: slightly more expensive to fill up their car. And opponents 187 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: to carbon pricing, right wing parties generally globally, will weaponize it. 188 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: They'll say, oh, my gosh, all the increase in the 189 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: price of oil was because of the carbon price, whether 190 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: or not that's true. So I don't think that it's 191 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: a very effective policy at actually changing people's behaviors because basically, 192 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: using fossil fuels is what we would call inelastic, meaning 193 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: very hard to change. I think that if we want 194 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: to break our dependence on fossil fuels, what we have 195 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: to do is get people clean electric machines. This is 196 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: the theory of change of Rewiring America, an organization I 197 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: work with, and basically they've shown that a billion machines 198 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: in the United States run and fossil fuels, everything from 199 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: a furnace to a car, to a leaf blower, you 200 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: name it, and we need to swap out those machines 201 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: for electric machines, and then a household will not care 202 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: if the price of oil goes up. When you break 203 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 1: the political relationship between getting to work and heating your 204 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: home and the costs of fossil fuels, that really helps 205 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: not only with your democracy, quite frankly, but also with decarbonization. Now, 206 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: you said one way to do it would be to 207 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: give Americans clean electricity powered appliances. Now, let's take an example. 208 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: Your favorite example, heat pumps. Yes, there's a heat pump 209 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: tax credit that is about two thousand dollars for a 210 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: product that can cost ten thousand dollars. Now, for a 211 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: median income of an American of about sixty thousand dollars, 212 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: that's still a steep upfront price even after getting a 213 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: two thousand dollars tax credit. Is that the way you 214 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: think more homeowners will be able to get heat pumps? Well, 215 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: a couple things. So tax credits are usually used by 216 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: wealthier Americans. So we shouldn't assume that somebody who's going 217 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: to use that tax credit is only going to make 218 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: sixty thousand dollars a year. They're probably going to make more. 219 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: That has led to, for example, wealthier people having more 220 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: solar panels on their roof, more evs in their driveway. 221 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: It's not the best way to go about it. But 222 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: keep in mind that when a wealthy person adopts a 223 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: new technology, they actually bring down the cost for everybody else. 224 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: This is called learning by doing its innovation. Why do 225 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: solar panels cost less today because a lot of people 226 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: install them in Germany and the United States and China. 227 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: And China also got better at manufacturing them. So that's 228 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: what we have to do with heat pumps. And when 229 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: a wealthy person decide to do it, that will bring 230 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: down the cost for other people too. So that's an 231 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: important thing to note. Keep in mind that we did 232 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: not just work very hard to get that two thousand 233 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: dollars tax credit. We also got four and a half 234 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: billion dollars for a program that Senator Heinrich led on 235 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: with Rewiring America that will help low and moderate income 236 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: folks get electric appliances. If you're a low income person, 237 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: you can get up to fourteen thousand dollars to electrify 238 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: your house. And you know, when we go back to 239 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: that two thousand dollars, let's say you're a wealthy person, 240 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: it's not a question of you know, oh my gosh, 241 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: this machine cost ten thousand dollars and I'm only getting 242 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: two thousand dollars back. It's actually a question of I 243 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: could get a gas furnace and it'll cost me I 244 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: don't know, eight thousand dollars, or I could get a 245 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: heat pump and it will cost me ten thousand dollars. 246 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: Which one should I get. We need to get that 247 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: marginal cost covered so that people realize that, oh wow, 248 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: if I pay a little bit more upfront, I get 249 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: that heat pump. That heat pump heats and cools my home, 250 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: so it also replaces my air conditioner or gets me 251 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: air conditioning for the first time. So you know, this 252 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: shift is about covering that marginal cost. I hate to 253 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: say it, but it's what Bill Gates calls the green premium. 254 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: I don't love that, but that's what he calls it. Right, 255 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: There's a little bit more to pay up front, and 256 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: then you get to save money every single month, right, 257 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: every single year, and that thing will pay itself back 258 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: really quickly. I ushed to take a moment to tell 259 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: me why exactly you hate green premiums. No, it's I 260 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: just think that actually, the clean technology is often the 261 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: cheaper technology, and constantly saying that it's more expensive isn't 262 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: quite true that sometimes it's cheaper to do the clean thing. 263 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: From my perspective, we want to get the message out 264 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: there that clean energy is cheap energy, and so I 265 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: don't necessarily think it is a premium to get the 266 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: clean item go right. From a math perspective, you know, 267 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: Bill Gates talks about green premiums being negative, and that'd 268 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: be great, but because of the word premium, having a 269 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: negative premium feels wrong, and that's why you're getting at Okay, yes, 270 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: exactly so. And I also think it doesn't all come 271 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: down to the marginal cost of things, right. This is 272 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: why I'm criticizing carbon pricing. Carbon pricing makes something slightly 273 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: more expensive. You might think that that shrinks the gap 274 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: for the green premium, but it also really pisses people 275 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: off when they have to pay more, and opponents weaponize 276 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: that difference and say that it's because of government policy. 277 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: Let's vote those people out of office. And so I 278 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: think it's not only about changing the prices of things. 279 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: It's also about how we change the prices of things 280 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: and how we sell them. Making clean stuff cheap is 281 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: very different from political perspective. Than making dirty stuff that 282 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: everybody uses right now expensive. Yeah, now you were involved 283 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: in writing some of the IRA. What's the process like. 284 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: Is it just like a lot of PhDs like you 285 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: who sit down in a Google doc and write like 286 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of words that end up in an 287 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: eight hundred page document or whatever it is. No, there's 288 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: very few PhDs involved. I would say. You know, me 289 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: and Jesse Jenkins, who I did my PhD with at MIT, 290 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: we were both involved. You know, initially I helped set 291 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: up to working groups coalitions. You can think of one 292 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: with advocates for clean electricity and one for electrification, and 293 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: I think if you go even farther back, that was 294 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: at the beginning of twenty one those coalitions. You know, 295 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: the Insley campaign for president was really important too, because 296 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: they wrote president. He ran as a presidential candidate, but 297 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: he is the governor of the state of Washington. Yeah. 298 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: His campaign basically involved writing hundreds of pages of ideas 299 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: for climate policy, and I got involved with them, and 300 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: we continue to write these policies. So there's a lot 301 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: of people involved different groups. You know, There's then the 302 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: staffers who work on specific committees, who work for specific 303 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: members their staff, working for the White House for agencies. 304 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: It takes like hundreds of people to get a bill written. 305 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: This bill is like seven hundred pages long, and yet 306 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: and still at the end of the day, the very 307 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: end of the process was a secret process involving two 308 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: senators and their staff, Senator Schumer, who's the majority leader 309 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: of the Democrats in the Senate, and Senator Mansion, that 310 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: cole baron, who didn't really want to do things, and 311 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: the whole thing fell apart. We were all devastated, and secretly, 312 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: the staff, probably a dozen people went into the basement 313 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: of the Capitol and negotiated this and didn't tell anybody 314 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: what they were doing. And they were doing a lot 315 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: of cutting and pasting, right. The negotiations are just like 316 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: here's a bit of text, I can take it. Yes. 317 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: So all the work that the advocacy groups did in advance, 318 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: and the staff and the White House and the agencies 319 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: and all these different people, you know, they that got 320 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: the bill to a certain stage, and then at the 321 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: end of the day it was really Schumer and Mansion 322 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: making decisions. As far as I understand, the people who 323 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: were in that basement weren't even allowed to tell their spouses. 324 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: It was very secret, right, and what was in the 325 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: final bill text was some stuff that nobody agreed to 326 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: or wanted, things like saying, in order to build clean 327 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: energy on government owned land what's called public lands, you 328 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: also have to lease put an auction out to give 329 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: the opportunity for companies to build dirty energy on public lands. 330 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: This was really upsetting to a lot of groups who 331 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 1: are trying to stop let's say, offshore development of oil 332 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: in the Gulf of Mexico and in Alaska, trying to 333 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: stop development of fossil fuels on public lands. Myself and 334 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: other groups were thrilled that so much of the work 335 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: of the community was still in the bill, but other 336 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: groups were really upset because Mansion had put some poison 337 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: pills in there, and you know, different groups kind of 338 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: came to conclusions about whether or not they supported the 339 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: bill at the end of the day. I look two 340 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: groups like Energy Innovation, which did an analysis that said 341 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: the good parts of the bill in terms of reducing pollution, 342 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: including in communities of color, including global pollution for the 343 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: whole planet, there were twenty four times bigger and better 344 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: than the bad parts of the bill. In terms of 345 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: adding pollution. So, you know, all of us had to say, 346 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: was this good enough? Was this better than living in 347 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: the world with no climate action from the federal government? 348 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: And I personally felt that it was better than the 349 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: status quo. After the break, I talked to Leah about 350 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: international negotiations, how the midterm elections might change things, and 351 00:20:42,800 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: how to build coalitions. Now. You recently interviewed Vice President 352 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris about the climate credentials of the Biden Harris administration, 353 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: and at the end of it you mentioned a recent 354 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: success in climate diplomacy that was nothing to do with 355 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: the cop meetings that happened annually. It was the Kigali Amendment, 356 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: where the US stratified an amendment to the Montreal Protocol 357 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: that is going to address greenhouse gases used in refrigeration 358 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: and help cool the planet as much as point five 359 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: degrees celsius. How did we miss that? Yeah, it was 360 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: great to talk with the Vice President and if folks 361 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: want to listen to it, it's on our podcast. A 362 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: matter of degrees. You know, she brought this up. When 363 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: we think about what did the Biden administration get done 364 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: on climate change, you know, we can think about the 365 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: inflation Reduction Act, and she pointed out that they also 366 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: got through the Senate the Kigali Amendment, which is an 367 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: amendment to the Montreal Protocol. For those who remember, the 368 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: Montreal Protocol is an agreement to deal with the ozone problem. 369 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: This was a really big problem where we were emitting 370 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: chemicals that we're creating a hole in the ozone and 371 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: countries around the world got together and they pass this 372 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: important agreement, which has been wildly successful in terms of 373 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: reducing ozone depleting substances and is often pointed to as 374 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: the most successful international environmental agreement. Right because the ozone 375 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: hole is healing, this is kind of a model we 376 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: could think of for climate change. And what people may 377 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: not know is that some of the chemicals that are 378 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: terrible for the ozone layer are also terrible for our 379 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: climate because they don't only create a hole in the 380 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: ozone layer, they also warm the planet. And so the 381 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: Kigali Amendment is basically targeting specific chemicals that have high 382 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: global warming potential, very very high global warming potential, and 383 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: they also go after the ozone layer. And because we 384 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: can go after these super pollutes as a global community, 385 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: that means that we can actually limit warming by an 386 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: enormous amount half the degree centigrade because each time you 387 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: release one of these chemicals sometimes it's something like twenty 388 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: three thousand times more potent than a single molecule of 389 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: carbon dioxide. So this is something that was done in 390 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: a bipartisan way in the United States. It's a really 391 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: big win, and it's also a really big win internationally. Yeah. 392 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: In that climate wind though, we have to acknowledge how 393 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: the US has been quite an unreliable climate ally because 394 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: the US signing up to the Kigali Amendment took a while. 395 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: There were many countries that it's signed onto it five 396 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: years ago more than that, right, Yeah, And we can 397 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: go through the history of the US not playing ball 398 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: with international agreements. It did not do so, going back 399 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: all the way to the Kyoto Agreement in nineteen ninety seven. 400 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: You know, it did not really play ball at the 401 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: Copenhagen summit in two thousand and nine that could really 402 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: have been the Paris Agreement. It did come through on 403 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: Paris in twenty fifteen while Obama was president, but then 404 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: it pulled out, and so the US credibility on climate 405 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: has been very shaky. Yeah, I think looking at the 406 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: United States as a monolith is part of the challenge, 407 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: because the reason why the United States has been terrible 408 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: on some of these international agreements is because they have 409 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: to be ratified by the Senate. The Senate is an 410 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: institution with one hundred people, two from each of the 411 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: fifty states, and it's not actually very representative of the 412 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: American people. It overwhelmingly gives voice to more conservative areas, 413 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: so that leads to bad outcomes on lots of things, 414 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: including on ratifying global agreements, because in the United States 415 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: it's the Senate that has to do that. If we 416 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: think about the Trump administration, obviously former President Trump was 417 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: terrible on the climate, but at that same time there 418 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,719 Speaker 1: was also a co Michael Bloomberg actually was very involved 419 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: in this right of getting states and cities who were 420 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: committed to climate action to tell the international community they 421 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: were still making progress. California could be seen as something 422 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: like the fifth largest economy globally. If I know that 423 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: it's huge place, massive economy, and really one of the 424 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: global leaders on decarbonization period. Right Like, this is a 425 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: place that has gone big on solar panels, on electric vehicles, 426 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: it's about to go big on heat pumps, it has 427 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: a carbon price. If that's what you like. It has 428 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: it all, you know, and that is within the United States. 429 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: It's a really big part of the United States. Keep 430 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: in mind, California just spent fifty four billion dollars this 431 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: summer on a climate bill. It's much bigger on a 432 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: per capita basis than what just happened federally. Right, New 433 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: York just banned gas in new construction in New York City, 434 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: and they're trying to do that statewide. So everywhere people 435 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: are trying to turn leavers. So let's stalk best CASEO 436 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: worst case scenario. There is an election coming up in 437 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: the US. It's the midterms. Most of the time outside 438 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: the US, they don't make that much noise because these 439 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: are between the two presidential elections, but they can matter 440 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: a lot because they can determine whether Democrats or Republicans 441 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: control the House of Representatives or the Senate. And so 442 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 1: let's guess that the Biden administration keeps both the House 443 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: and the Senate, and maybe even wins more seats in 444 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: the Senate, taking away the power that Senator Mansion holds 445 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: over the Senate. Today, what would be your wildest dreams 446 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: to accomplish in climate policy over the next two years. 447 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: Well that's an optimistic forecast, but sure, let's dream a 448 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: little dream here. I would love to spend more money 449 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: on electrifying schools in the United States. That's not something 450 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: that we got a lot of money for, and it's 451 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: really important. There's like ten thousand schools in California alone, 452 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: probably like one hundred thousand in America. I don't know 453 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: the actual number, but there's a lot of these buildings. 454 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: There are places where kids learn. We need to electrify them. 455 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: That'll make it healthier to learn. It'll also give kids 456 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: air conditioning, which is super important given heat waves because 457 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: of climate change. So that's a dream. I'd love more 458 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: money to help clean up affordable housing electrify it. I 459 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: would want to put a lot more money into those 460 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: low and moderate income electrification rebates. We got four and 461 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: a half billion dollars, but we're going to run through 462 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: that money really quickly, so let's get more for that. 463 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: I would love to fix some of the garbage that 464 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: Mansion shoved into the bill. So, for example, that requirement 465 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: that you have to auction offshore and onshore leases for 466 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: oil and gas development. Let's not do that. That sounds terrible, 467 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: So I'd love to fix that. I'd love to do 468 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: reform to make transmission easier to build, but without gutting 469 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: environmental protections, which is another big debate that's going on 470 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: right now. I don't know. We'd probably need sixty votes 471 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: to do that, though, so that one might not be doable. 472 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: Let's take the worst case scenario, then the Democrats lose 473 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: both the House and the Senate. How resilient do you 474 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: think the IRA is in the face of such a challenge, 475 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: and what, if anything can the Biden administration continue to 476 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: do on climate policy. I think that the IRA is 477 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: going to be very resilient. You know, the Republicans talked 478 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: a big game when it came to repealing the Affordable 479 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: Care Act. This is sometimes called Obamacare. It's a healthcare 480 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: law that helped millions of Americans get access to healthcare. 481 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: They said, oh, we're going to repeal it. We're going 482 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: to repeal it. They made it their life's mission, and 483 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: guess what, they never repealed it. In the United States, 484 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: What political science research shows is that when you pass 485 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: a law, it becomes pretty sticky, and it's actually quite 486 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: hard to repeal it. So once we have companies, you know, 487 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: building heat pumps in the United States and solar panels 488 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: and electric vehicles, including in Republican districts, they're not going 489 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: to say, what do you mean you're going to get 490 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: rid of this policy. We need this policy. We're making 491 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: a lot of money and employing people, and you know, 492 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: this is great stuff. So I think it is actually 493 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: going to be quite sticky in the first two years. 494 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: Let's say the House and Senate went Republican, it would 495 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: be bad, don't get me wrong, But we still have 496 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: the Democratic president and therefore, you know, they couldn't really 497 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: repeal the law because President Biden would just veto anything 498 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: that actually managed to pass. So I think that we 499 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: have at least two years solid to really make progress 500 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: on this, probably three or more, and that will create 501 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: what we call policy feedback, which means that the policy 502 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: itself will restructure the politics and make the policy stickier. 503 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: So that's trying to protect what the ayer does and 504 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: also putting it in action. But can Biden go further 505 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: in the next two years even if he doesn't have 506 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: the House or the Senate and its support. Absolutely, you know, 507 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: if the legislature is Republican. That doesn't really mean that 508 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: Biden can't do lots of things. In fact, a lot 509 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: of the executive action the regulations have been put on hold, 510 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: like I talked about, because they've been trying to get 511 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: the big prize of legislation. And so now in the 512 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: second half of the Biden Harris administration, I expect to 513 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: see a lot of focus on implementing, let's say, the 514 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: Clean Air Act. The Clean Air Act is a bedrock 515 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: law that can regulate fossil fuel power plants, so they 516 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: can say, hey, you want to build a new fossil 517 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: fuel power plant, you need to pass this standard in 518 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 1: order to do it. Hey, you got an existing fossil 519 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: fuel power plant, you need to have it operate at 520 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: this level. And actually, the Biden administration could even put 521 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: requirements in under the Clean Air Acts for appliances. So 522 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: you're standing in your home, you're cooking something in your 523 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: stove or in the oven using gas, and you're creating 524 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: levels of indoor air pollution that are two, three four 525 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: times higher than what is considered safe outdoors. So the 526 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency could regulate that. They could say you 527 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: can't sell people appliances, but that are poisoning them in 528 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: their homes. That's not okay. That's something that Evergreen Action, 529 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: which I work with, has been advocating for in a 530 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: recent paper where we outline actions that the Biden administration 531 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: can take to electrify buildings, for example, to support building decarbonization. 532 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot they can do. One other place where 533 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: the US continues to lack despite this progress on climate 534 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: policy is how much money the US gives to the 535 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: rest of the world as part of climate financing. So 536 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: the first fall is where the US makes very small 537 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: contributions toward one hundred billion dollar fund that's supposed to 538 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: fund cutting emissions or adapting to a warming planet activities 539 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: in developing countries. The US contribution is closer to forty 540 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: billion dollars if you do it on an economic strength basis. 541 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: But the US contributes to three billion dollars a year 542 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: at most. Biden wants to raise it all the way 543 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: to eleven billion dollars. He hasn't been able to get 544 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: that approval from Congress. That's just step one. Step two, 545 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: which is going to be the big battle that's going 546 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: to happen at COP twenty seven in Egypt is around 547 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: something called loss and damage, where developed countries agreed under 548 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement to pay developing countries for the losses 549 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: and damages caused by climate impacts. You know, we still 550 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: don't know how much money that would be, how it 551 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: would be transferred, what the structure would be, and all 552 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: of that is to be fought for at this cop summit. 553 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: How do you think, given progress at a domestic level, 554 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: will it affect international diplomacy when the US cannot put 555 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: forth the money it must. Well, it's sad to hear 556 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: you say that, because I wrote a paper back in 557 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine which looked at this exact issue, 558 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: and it was folks calling for one hundred billion dollars 559 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: globally and folks paying like no billions of dollars globally. 560 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: And to hear the update, it's basically the same. You know, 561 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: we can fast forward what is that thirteen years and 562 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: we're in the same place. This is a big area 563 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: where we could say G eight, G seven nations have 564 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: talked a big game that they're going to support developing countries, 565 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: they're going to give money, and they never do. I 566 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: fear that the loss and damage conversation may be similar. 567 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: It certainly has seen that way so far. That countries 568 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: talk a big game and they don't really deliver. That's 569 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: very frustrating, I'm sure for developing countries, particularly for small 570 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: island nations that are literally losing their entire you know, 571 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: land livelihoods, communities, histories to the rising oceans. Yeah, it's 572 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: very depressing. I think that the Biden administration has good 573 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: intentions and wants to do more, but there are limits, right. 574 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: The executive has to get the legislature to actually appropriate 575 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: funds to then put towards this, and that clearly has 576 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: not been a big priority. And if the Republicans are 577 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: in charge of the legislature, I mean that will not 578 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: be happening. So it's a frustrating situation for sure. And 579 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: I do think that developing nations deserve more. But if 580 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: we take your learning and your scholarship on the political 581 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: science of how to build good climate policy domestically but 582 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: also how to make climate policy be effective on a 583 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: global stage, what is it do you think that's a 584 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: missing to bring the politics domestically right so that you 585 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: can fund what is us responsibility for global funding towards adaptation? 586 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: Towards mitigations toward damages and losses of climate impacts. I 587 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: think that part of the issue here is also siloing, 588 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 1: where this conversation often happens in the development community right 589 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: through USA or through the United Nations, and that is 590 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: somewhat separate from the domestic conversation through the Department of 591 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: Energy or the Environmental Protection Agency, or even just the 592 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: committees in Congress that are responsible for funding one part 593 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: of it versus another part of it. I came across 594 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: this a bunch in California. I was advocating to try 595 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: to get money to electrify schools, and the education people 596 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: are different than the climate people, and so you know, 597 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: in order to talk about school buildings, you have to 598 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: talk to the education people. But the education people don't 599 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: really know or care that much about climate, and so 600 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: you end up in a sort of siloed conversation. I 601 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: think that's probably similar to what's going on in the 602 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: United States, where the development people are trying to think 603 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: about that conversation and moving forward funds to help developing countries. 604 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: But that's quite separate from the climate community in the 605 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: United States, which is focused on sort of decarbonization domestically, 606 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: so that may be part of the reason why this 607 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: wasn't a big focus of it. I think it is unfortunate, 608 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: I do. I mean, I wish we had gotten more 609 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: money period for all the things, including to help developing 610 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: nations transition. We did as well as we could, given 611 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: the math in the Senate and given that last vote 612 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: with Senator Mansion, and I doubt very much that he 613 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: was super interested in funding developing countries to transition. Unfortunately, 614 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: what in the last two years of having elected Biden 615 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: to be president and then got him to work on 616 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: all these climate policies and get them through? Have you 617 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: learned about coalition building? You know? I started a lot 618 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: of this advocacy work as a professor. I began to 619 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: write reviews of candidates for presidents in the Democratic primary 620 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: their plans on climate and I just used my expertise 621 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: from working on climate change for seventeen plus years now. 622 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: But I wasn't necessarily involved in the political system at 623 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: the time. I wasn't even a US. I was just 624 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: a person who knew a bunch about a topic. And 625 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: over time I got more involved with advocacy groups. I'd 626 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: written this book called Short circuiting policy where I'd interviewed 627 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: people who had passed really important clean energy and renewable 628 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: energy laws at the state level, and kind of inspired 629 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 1: by all these advocates I talked to, I started thought, well, 630 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: maybe I could do that as well. So I kind 631 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 1: of stumbled into becoming a very prominent advocate for this work. 632 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: In the early days when we were trying to figure 633 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: out how to pass a clean electricity standard through reconciliation, 634 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: which we figured out how to do, we just couldn't 635 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: get mansed to agree to it. You know, we talked 636 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,439 Speaker 1: to a bunch of advocates, we talked to a bunch 637 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: of experts. We sort of figured it out. And some 638 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: people when we published that report, which was hugely successful, 639 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 1: they were mad that we didn't talk to them before 640 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: we wrote it. But I was used to being a 641 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: professor and writing an article and going through peer review, 642 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: and why do I have to talk to every group 643 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: in order to write a report? And so the advocacy 644 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: community is different, right. You have to make sure that 645 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 1: you're bringing lots of people to the table, that you're 646 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: listening to folks. And one thing I learned from my 647 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: book was that you needed networks of advocates working together 648 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: in order to pass a law. And so with Rewaring America, 649 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: we set up an electrification coalition that still runs today 650 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: has hundreds of groups operating. We set up with Evergreen 651 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,479 Speaker 1: Action and Electricity Clean Electricity Coalition, and that was really 652 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: informed from my work. I thought, Okay, let's find everybody 653 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: who wants to work on this together. Let's work together. 654 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: We're trying to make it diverse, especially having environmental justice 655 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: groups and disadvantaged folks who represent disadvantaged communities at the table. 656 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: There's always more work that can be done to make 657 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: sure that those groups have the resources to participate. That 658 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: has not been perfect, but I have tried to use 659 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: the bizarre platform that I have built, created, been gifted, 660 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: i don't know, to lift up decarbonization, lift up pollution 661 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: reduction for communities all across the United States and the 662 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: you know, if you look at the parts of the 663 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: bill that I really worked on, they're like helping low 664 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: income folks get a heat pup, you know, or helping 665 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 1: wealthy people get a heatpup, or you know, making it 666 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: easier to shut down coal plants. There are things that 667 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm really proud of and I think that the movement 668 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: can be really proud of. That was a lot of fun. 669 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, oh, thank you 670 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 1: so much for having me on. If you're talking about 671 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: bringing people to the table, it's a good thing that 672 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: the US is back to participating in the challenge of 673 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: cutting emissions. Yet it has a lot of work to 674 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 1: do to prove to be a reliable ally. The result 675 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: of the midterm elections next week might make it harder 676 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: for Biden to pursue his climate agenda, and then the 677 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four presidential election might put a climate denier 678 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: back in the White House. But as Leah puts it, 679 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: climate advocates are ready for the fight. The network, she describes, 680 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: will keep some of the many parts of the US 681 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: doing what needs doing. If you enjoyed listening to Leah, 682 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: I want to recommend her podcast A Matter of Degrees. 683 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: Along with doctor Catherine Wilkinson, Leah talks about the forces 684 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: behind climate change and the tools we have to fix it. 685 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,919 Speaker 1: They just put out a bunch of episodes about what 686 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: individuals can do. I recommend part to the professional, where 687 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: you can follow along as an oil worker tries to 688 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: change jobs and go green. Thanks so much for listening 689 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: to Zero. If you like the show, please rate, review, 690 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: and subscribe, Tell a friend or tell the richest American 691 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: you know to get a heat pump. If you've got 692 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: a suggestion for a guest or topic, or something you 693 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: just want us to look into, get in touch at 694 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: Zero Pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar 695 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: Boyd and senior producer is Christine driscoll. Our team music 696 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderlely. Many people help make the show 697 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: a success. This week's special thanks to Stacy Woan. She's 698 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: a producer on the Bloomberg Podcast team and a source 699 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: of renewable energy herself. I'm Ashatrati back next week from 700 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: Charmel Shaik in Egypt, where I'll be covering COP twenty seven. 701 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: We'll be putting out more episodes than usual as we 702 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 1: bring you inside the tenth of the biggest climate meeting 703 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: of the year.