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Speaker 1: Most things don't need to live on the blockchain, most

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Speaker 1: things don't need to be crypto based. But in a

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Speaker 1: world where that technology provides real value to that organizing

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Speaker 1: structure that I think adao is a really great thing

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Speaker 1: to explore in terms of how you can create fundamental

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Speaker 1: transparency and sort of value cruel to people who participate

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Speaker 1: in that network. Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a

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Speaker 1: legal status. This season is all about how we practice democracy,

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Speaker 1: what can we get rid of, what can we invent,

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Speaker 1: and how do we change the culture of democracy itself.

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Speaker 1: We're leaving the theoretical clouds and hitting the ground with

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Speaker 1: inspiring examples of people and institutions that are showing us

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Speaker 1: new ways to govern ourselves. Way back in the year

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Speaker 1: two twenty one, I tried to buy an original copy

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Speaker 1: of the United States Constitution. Okay, me and thousands of

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Speaker 1: other people tried to buy the Constitution. I was part

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Speaker 1: of this group called Constitution Doo. DOO stands for a

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Speaker 1: decentralized Autonomous Organization, and it was formed by a few

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Speaker 1: dozen people who wanted to bid on the nation's founding document.

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Speaker 1: It was essentially a crowdfunding campaign where anyone who was

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Speaker 1: interested could pledge cryptocurrency to the bid and by doing so,

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Speaker 1: have a say in what would happen with the document

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Speaker 1: if we won. So very nerdy, but people got into it.

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Speaker 1: Constitution Dow raised nearly fifty million dollars in a week.

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Speaker 1: We did get beat at the auction, and in hindsight

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Speaker 1: it was pretty obvious. You don't enter an auction with

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Speaker 1: everybody knowing how much money you're willing to pledge. But

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Speaker 1: the energy around it was amazing and it was cool

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Speaker 1: to be a part of this flash mobby group purchase

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Speaker 1: of a piece of US history. And it's not just

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Speaker 1: Constitution loving freaks who are into DAOs. They vary in use,

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Speaker 1: in membership, and in purpose, and to me, they give

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Speaker 1: us a way to use digital tools to structure an

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Speaker 1: essentially online cooperative model of self governance. The thing that

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Speaker 1: makes DAOs different from your typical company or nonprofit or

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Speaker 1: coop is that they're built on blockchain technology. Yes, blockchain.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to have to say this word to you.

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Speaker 1: I know you've heard of it and it probably makes

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Speaker 1: you think of people coming to take your money. I'm

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Speaker 1: not here to steal your money. There's no tokens, there's

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Speaker 1: no FTX schemes, there's nothing like that. Okay, I don't

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Speaker 1: believe we need to financialize all human activity or speculate

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Speaker 1: on fake Internet money to feel like we're making progress.

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Speaker 1: But underneath the flashy headlines of fraud, there is a

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Speaker 1: technology worth understanding. Blockchain is a form of relatively secure

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Speaker 1: and radically transparent storage. You can think of it as

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Speaker 1: a database that can be used to store financial transactions,

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Speaker 1: but also transactions like votes or even moves in a

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Speaker 1: video game. There's almost no limit to what you could

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Speaker 1: store in it, and when we think about citizening and

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Speaker 1: self governance, a DOW is an attempt to create this

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Speaker 1: kind of human organizational layer on top of that blockchain

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Speaker 1: with some of the same principles. The blockchain creates transactional transparency,

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Speaker 1: and the participation of people through a DOW helps secure

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Speaker 1: and increased trust in the overall operation. The code itself

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Speaker 1: doesn't make those things happen, but it can help ensure

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Speaker 1: Collective self governing groups like neighborhood cooperatives aren't new, but

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Speaker 1: given how much time we're collect actively spending in technological spaces.

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Speaker 1: It's worth asking, can we design systems in the digital

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Speaker 1: world where we can truly practice collective decision making and

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Speaker 1: resource sharing better than what we've seen done in the

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Speaker 1: physical world. Alex Jang has been asking this question for

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Speaker 1: a while. Alex is the mayor of Friends with Benefits now.

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Speaker 1: Friends with Benefits, or FWB for short, is a doubt

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Speaker 1: that's essentially an online club with thousands of members. Those

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Speaker 1: members decide what those benefits are and how to manage

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Speaker 1: their collective financial resources. Basically, FWB is a chat room

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Speaker 1: with a bank account. Think about a subreddit you're really

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Speaker 1: invested in, or an old Aowell chat room. Think of

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Speaker 1: those structures, but this time they've got a treasury and

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Speaker 1: some voting mechanisms attached. And with those new features, you

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Speaker 1: can do so many more things than just chat activities,

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Speaker 1: like funding projects, supporting artistic innovation, and organizing events and meetups.

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Speaker 1: The list goes on. Dows like FWB are a fascinating

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Speaker 1: place for us to learn some of the ways we

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Speaker 1: might citizen in the future, and they can give us.

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Speaker 1: They give me a little hope that when it comes

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Speaker 1: to our digital spaces, we can still define community for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We don't have to subject ourselves to these manipulative attention

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Speaker 1: extraction platforms. Investing in online spaces doesn't have to mean

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Speaker 1: divesting from our communities and our democracy. In fact, it

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Speaker 1: could mean the opposite. So I met up with Alex

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Speaker 1: over Zoom along with our virtual audience to learn how

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Speaker 1: we can upgrade our virtual citizening after the break, Alex

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Speaker 1: Jang on the benefits of doos and the potential of

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Speaker 1: creating digital spaces instead of being consumed by them. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about web three and dows today, and

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Speaker 1: just very briefly, web threes, like the allegedly new version

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Speaker 1: of the Internet which has users not just being users

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Speaker 1: but also owners, are the platforms that we are a

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Speaker 1: part of. Alex Jang is an advocate for how Web

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Speaker 1: three technology can help propel culture and large scale human

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Speaker 1: coordination forward. He's the de facto mayor at Friends with Benefits,

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Speaker 1: a crypto enabled cultural membership and community cited by The

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Speaker 1: New York Times as one of the most interesting uses

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Speaker 1: of doos right now. I don't know if the time's

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Speaker 1: meant to rhyme like that. Formerly, he was the creative

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Speaker 1: director and president of Summit Series a global community and

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Speaker 1: evinced company, which is where Alex and I met. Alex,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to how the citizen. What's up? Super happy to

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Speaker 1: be here and good to see you. It's good to

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Speaker 1: see you too, it's been a while. I want to

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Speaker 1: get your perspective on the big picture before we dive

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Speaker 1: into the world of FWB and possible to democracy enhancing

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Speaker 1: skills that we might gain through DOO activities. But by

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Speaker 1: some estimates there are about ten thousand dows. I want

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Speaker 1: to know how you think this structure of ADAO compares

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Speaker 1: to a traditional hierarchical company or to a representative democracy

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Speaker 1: whereas citizens slash members, we elect decision makers to determine

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Speaker 1: our laws and our spending and even what's allowed in

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Speaker 1: terms of our actions. What's the DAO structure offer that's

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Speaker 1: different from what these other structures were more familiar with offer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a great question. First off, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Love to talk everything democracy and in between. And incredible

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Speaker 1: to see this community that you've built here. It's really

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Speaker 1: really fun. Yeah. I think to sort of first take

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Speaker 1: a step back and like demist defy dows decentralized autonomous organizations,

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Speaker 1: because I think there can be a lot of sort

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Speaker 1: of baggage and different things attached to it, which really

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Speaker 1: is an organization that has assets that live on the blockchain.

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Speaker 1: So that is my first sort of clarification point, as

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Speaker 1: you cannot be a DOO don't interact with crypto or

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Speaker 1: the blockchain. It is fundamentally attached to how an organization

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Speaker 1: holds in custodies its assets, which are primarily crypto based assets.

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Speaker 1: And then from there a DAW can be structured as

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Speaker 1: centrally or decentrally as possible. I call it sort of

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Speaker 1: a spectrum of decentralization, or other writers call it, you know,

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Speaker 1: being progressively decentralized, no different than you can choose to

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Speaker 1: run your LLC or your c corp any way you want.

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Speaker 1: I've advised and supported many different DAOs that are completely

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Speaker 1: flat decentralized and bottoms up governed all the way to

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Speaker 1: ones that look a little bit more in the middle.

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Speaker 1: I would say, how f TOBB is where we operate

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Speaker 1: as a representative democracy as opposed to a direct democracy.

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Speaker 1: And then you have those that are very tightly knit,

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Speaker 1: tightly coordinated, centralized leaders, which are DAWs of four people

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Speaker 1: and they decide which art to buy and collect and sell,

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Speaker 1: and that isn't, as say, flatly governed by its users.

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Speaker 1: So I would offer that there is not one fits

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Speaker 1: all DOW and dows are can contain a spectrum of

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Speaker 1: centralization or decentralization. But fundamentally, why DOW is a question

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Speaker 1: many people should be asking because even hearing that there's

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Speaker 1: ten thousand of them is kind of frightening because I

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Speaker 1: believe many of them shouldn't be a DOO. But a

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Speaker 1: DOO should only exist, in my opinion, if one you

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Speaker 1: have a cryptocurrency based sort of organization or reason for

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Speaker 1: existence and to the need to decide how to allocate

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Speaker 1: those resources should be governed via on chain decision making,

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Speaker 1: voting and governance. And so, really, where doos become exciting

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Speaker 1: to me as I look across five years, ten years

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Speaker 1: as the cryptocurrency industry continues to evolve and mature, Is

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Speaker 1: that doos feel like a really interesting organizational structure framework

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Speaker 1: for Internet based communities that leverage cryptocurrency as ways to trade,

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Speaker 1: exchange and create value for its users trade exchange, change

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Speaker 1: and create value. So one, thank you for not telling

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Speaker 1: everyone to go start a doubt. I just appreciate the

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Speaker 1: non boosterism of that maybe right for you, maybe not

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Speaker 1: right for others. This common denominator that is blockchain based

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Speaker 1: on chain, crypto held assets. I don't want to get

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Speaker 1: too much into the rabbit hole, but since we're on

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Speaker 1: the subject, now, can you, for those who are not

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Speaker 1: deeply enmeshed, give your ambassador translation of the value of

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Speaker 1: putting an organization of people like this on a blockchain? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Happy too. So similar to why I was saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: not everything should be a doubt, Not everything should be

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Speaker 1: on chain or even a crypto based organization. What is

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Speaker 1: fundamentally interesting about cryptocurrency? And just for even the room here,

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Speaker 1: Like I got involved with crypto two years ago, like

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Speaker 1: fairly recently, I met Bartunda when I still thought crypto

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Speaker 1: was a total scam, and I was like, this makes

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Speaker 1: no sense. To centralize finance component made no sense or

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Speaker 1: interest to me. I was formerly worked in sort of

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Speaker 1: art and culture and events and community building, and it

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Speaker 1: was only until I started to really peak a little

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Speaker 1: bit behind the curtain when I started to see the

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Speaker 1: fundamental technology of cryptocurrency being interesting. The idea of a

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Speaker 1: decentralized monetary system that was sort of borderless was really

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Speaker 1: interesting to me. It still boggles my mind that on

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Speaker 1: a national holiday you can't wire money to somebody when

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Speaker 1: they need to receive money. So things like that started

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Speaker 1: to became really really interesting. And then as I started

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Speaker 1: to apply that thinking of the principles and values and

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Speaker 1: tenants of cryptocurrency and how they would relate to other

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Speaker 1: industries like culture, civics, community, I became really interested with

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Speaker 1: sort of two components. One transparency. I think currently in

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Speaker 1: society we're all struggling with a lack of transparency, from

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Speaker 1: corporate lack of transparency to governmental lack of transparency. And

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Speaker 1: the fact that the blockchain is literally transparent. No one

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Speaker 1: can obfuse skate it because it is all hoarded on

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Speaker 1: chain and anyone who can go look for the data

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Speaker 1: can go find that data and query that data became

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Speaker 1: really really interesting to me. And perhaps a world in

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Speaker 1: which different organizations imagine if you could see how Facebook

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Speaker 1: is spending their money or a private companies were spending

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Speaker 1: their money in real time and where they were allocating

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Speaker 1: that sort of capital. So that became really interesting to

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Speaker 1: me as someone who had been in community based organizing

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Speaker 1: movements organizations and saying, oh, how as a community based organization,

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Speaker 1: it would be cool to see how that community is

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Speaker 1: actually deploying its capital, is it spending its money, who

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Speaker 1: is it paying, how much are they paying those people?

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Speaker 1: What are they actually doing to One was transparency, and

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Speaker 1: then two is what I call value accruel. And so

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Speaker 1: previously I'd worked a lot in various different art and

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Speaker 1: culture entertainment spaces, and I was always really upset by

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Speaker 1: how artists seem to be creating a lot of value

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Speaker 1: but not capturing a lot of that value. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I just I want to interject all that point. So

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Speaker 1: many of us have heard, felt and lived with the

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Speaker 1: consequences of being the product in a digital perspective on

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Speaker 1: a Twitter, Facebook, corporate owned thing, and we're just kind

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Speaker 1: of feeding some economic machine that values not being returned

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Speaker 1: to us in any tangible way we can connect with

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Speaker 1: our own friends. Yeah, but they're monetizing that and making

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Speaker 1: money off of that. And certainly art has been rife

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Speaker 1: with that kind of exploitation of value, and so did

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Speaker 1: the concentration of it. So continue with the point I

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Speaker 1: would just so enthusiastic I had to jump in there

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Speaker 1: on the value point. Yeah, No, I totally agree I mean,

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Speaker 1: we know that whole narrative of the platform sort of

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Speaker 1: monetizing it via advertising models, and I just became really

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Speaker 1: interested in how creators, unlet's just use that big bucket,

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Speaker 1: whether it's someone writing on social media and creating content,

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Speaker 1: to a visual artist or a musician, that value that

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Speaker 1: they're bringing to an organization or to a platform, how

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Speaker 1: that value could actually accrue to the edges of that

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Speaker 1: network versus just the central owners of that specific platform.

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Speaker 1: And I saw that in both massive social media platforms

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Speaker 1: but also community projects that had really great intentions, but

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Speaker 1: seeing how as a community began to grow, ultimately the

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Speaker 1: organization the owners were capturing a majority of that value

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Speaker 1: as opposed to the actual contributors of that specific community

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Speaker 1: or movement. And so it became an interesting thought experiment

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Speaker 1: in the beginning of me and my sort of partners

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Speaker 1: where we were all exploring and cloudbrators of if cryptocurrency

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Speaker 1: could store financial value, could it store cultural value right,

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Speaker 1: and could that cultural value be translated financially to actually

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Speaker 1: reward people who are bringing them full selves and their

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Speaker 1: and bringing value to the table as it relates to

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Speaker 1: a social media network or as it relates to a

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Speaker 1: club scene in Bushwick. It was both similarly interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: And that's how Friends with Benefits essentially it was created,

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Speaker 1: was a social network that was community owned and where

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Speaker 1: value could accrue to the people who brought their ideas,

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Speaker 1: their artistic expression, their connections, their full selves into a

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Speaker 1: membership club or network, and could that value be captured

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Speaker 1: equally across the board. Bravo, I am signing up for

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Speaker 1: no longer paying cover charges at a club, but making

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Speaker 1: the club pay me because I'm bringing cool there, he goes,

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Speaker 1: and now who's in charge? Let me see your ID bouncer.

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Speaker 1: Friends with Benefits. It's a great transition, and FWB has

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Speaker 1: been called this group chat will a shared bank account,

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Speaker 1: decentralized SOHO house, this global VIP private club with a

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Speaker 1: lot of cultural influencers amongst its membership. Can you give

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Speaker 1: me more about the history of it and why you've

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Speaker 1: described it in these ways, especially on this point around

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Speaker 1: cultural compensation, you know, as a premise for this particular gathering. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the origin stories are actually you know, quite experimental

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Speaker 1: and accidental, as I find with most fun scenes or

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Speaker 1: things that weren't too serious in the beginning. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even the name of our organization, FWB, you know, is

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Speaker 1: all sorted as a joke. Trevor mcfederis the founder who

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Speaker 1: I've been friends with for quite some time. Has been

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Speaker 1: sort of a really interesting sort of creator and entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: and he's always sat at the interesting intersections of sort

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Speaker 1: of culture and new media technology, and so he was

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Speaker 1: particularly interested in this concept of cultural capture in terms

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Speaker 1: of value, and over the course of a weekend, he

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Speaker 1: created the FBB token as a joke and sent it

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Speaker 1: out to a bunch of his friends. I was one

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Speaker 1: of those friends, and there was like twenty or thirty

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Speaker 1: of us hanging out in this group chat that at

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Speaker 1: the time it was tiny or minuscule. And this was

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Speaker 1: all during COVID, and so all of us were locked

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Speaker 1: in at home, all of us were bored, and all

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Speaker 1: of us were asking questions about what is crypto? What

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Speaker 1: is Web three? What are NFTs? This was right when

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Speaker 1: the boom of crypto started to sort of occur and evolve,

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Speaker 1: and we were all in this room together essentially making

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Speaker 1: sense of what was happening together. And when we started

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Speaker 1: to see was a couple interesting things. One we saw

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Speaker 1: that people then began to feel a stronger sense of

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Speaker 1: ownership by holding the FTBB token and feeling a real

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Speaker 1: sense of pride over the network, that they began to

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Speaker 1: propose ways to evolve and change the network. You know,

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Speaker 1: I had this early saying of like when you see

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Speaker 1: trash on the ground, pick it up. We started to

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Speaker 1: see that happened really organically. You know, Hey, let's add

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Speaker 1: this channel, Hey, let's remove that channel. Hey, let's put

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Speaker 1: in a code of conduct early so we can avoid

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Speaker 1: issues of X y Z ahead of time. And as

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Speaker 1: someone who's been involved in lots of different community projects

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Speaker 1: and also social networking projects, I was like, this kind

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Speaker 1: of behavior feels different the early adopters of an online network.

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Speaker 1: That felt very similar, a sense of pride, a sense

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Speaker 1: of identity attached to sort of an online cohort. But

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Speaker 1: what felt different here was an actual sense of ownership

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Speaker 1: in terms of, Okay, this actual token, this asset that's mine,

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Speaker 1: is custodied by me, is actually both my entrance into

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Speaker 1: this experience and also a thing that gets to grow

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Speaker 1: over time as more value is sort of being created.

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Speaker 1: And that sort of collectivism was the thing we wanted

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Speaker 1: to experiment with in a digital space. And so then

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Speaker 1: the story is quite you know, twenty people, thirty people,

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Speaker 1: one hundred people, five hundred people. And then by then

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Speaker 1: I was like, wait, this is really interesting. I sort

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Speaker 1: of want to step into more of a leadership role

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Speaker 1: here because it was me and seven other people sort

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Speaker 1: of contributing. And that was when I sort of stepped

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Speaker 1: into my role as the mayor sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: elected myself and a core team into this role. And

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Speaker 1: the first thing I'll say, which I think is a

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Speaker 1: fun conversation for this group here in terms of its

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Speaker 1: adjacency to sort of urbanism and civics, is you know,

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Speaker 1: wanting to be really clear that my role was not

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Speaker 1: as a CEO, but was as a mayor, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm here to sort of represent the people. And I

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Speaker 1: thought that fundamental shift in that leadership role would plant

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Speaker 1: the seeds for an online community or social network platform

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Speaker 1: to be actually built people first as opposed to platform first.

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Speaker 1: And so that sort of kicked off. How FTERBB has

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Speaker 1: been sort of governed today and now it's a six

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Speaker 1: thousand person, you know, membership community organization. It's a community

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Speaker 1: owned social network where funding projects across the network within

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Speaker 1: the community. We've thrown hundreds of events all over the

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Speaker 1: world organized by community members who received tokens as compensation

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Speaker 1: for organizing those events, from gallery tours to coffee tasting

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Speaker 1: to club nights in Paris, to building our own social software,

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Speaker 1: our own products, and in our own physical goods like

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Speaker 1: apparel and merchandise and CpG, with all of that value

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Speaker 1: accruing back into that shared bank account sort of no

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Speaker 1: different than like almost like an ip or like a franchise,

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Speaker 1: where where value sort of flows back that shared treasury,

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Speaker 1: and that shared treasury you know, is a reflected This

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Speaker 1: is a question and a kind of checking my own understanding.

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Speaker 1: I join, I pay to join, and I pay in

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Speaker 1: the form of these tokens that I hold. So as

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Speaker 1: I bring value to the community, the value of my holdings,

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Speaker 1: my ownership stake also goes up. Is that the kind

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Speaker 1: of mutually beneficial economic theory behind this? Yeah, why do

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Speaker 1: you care so much about the culture part, mister mayor,

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Speaker 1: And I want to come back to the mayor in

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Speaker 1: the election point in just a second, But how are

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Speaker 1: you defining it and what does that mean for you

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Speaker 1: in terms of the currency here culture like capital c

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Speaker 1: like at large, the community's culture. The idea that FWB

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Speaker 1: itself is built around music, around arts, around these cultural

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Speaker 1: things where there are many dows which are built just

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Speaker 1: around the idea of the token itself totally totally right,

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Speaker 1: or they're organized to purchase something like that constitution dow,

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Speaker 1: which I was also a part of because I thought

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Speaker 1: it was weird and fun. So culture is the focus here?

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Speaker 1: What yeah? I mean? I think first off, community that

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Speaker 1: comes together organically and experimentally often has like threads that

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Speaker 1: connect it without it even being like an explicit manifesto

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Speaker 1: or mission statement. Right. I think we all came together

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Speaker 1: because all of us worked in cultural spaces, and I

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Speaker 1: think to date the crypto narrative has been heavily dominated

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Speaker 1: via financialization speculation and this you know ico boom and

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Speaker 1: by this token and number goes out initial coins offerings,

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Speaker 1: and we were all, like, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: us also our technologist were interested in technology, not cold

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Speaker 1: hard technology, but how technology can perhaps enhance human connection

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Speaker 1: and human experiences. And while this crypto boom was happening,

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Speaker 1: we all just became interested like can this actually accentuate

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Speaker 1: these cultural spaces that we all sort of came from.

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Speaker 1: And so that's sort of like one track that we're interested. Okay, fundamentally,

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Speaker 1: how does this technology impact our industries was where this started.

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Speaker 1: And the second, I think the more sort of like

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Speaker 1: meta angle of it is a lot of us have

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Speaker 1: been frustrated because we've participated in many different cultural spaces,

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Speaker 1: from those early nightclubs or bar scenes in certain neighborhoods

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Speaker 1: that then became overly gentrified once high rise commercial development

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Speaker 1: and real estate agents came in and q the Williamsburg narrative.

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Speaker 1: And we've all been a part of those various different

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Speaker 1: stories and those fifteen year movements and were interested in

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Speaker 1: perhaps new mechanics or ways where those early artists could

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Speaker 1: actually capture some of that value on that gentrification curve,

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Speaker 1: and interested in does that same curve apply in digital spaces.

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Speaker 1: And so we were really interested in, like, clearly, there's

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Speaker 1: going to be a role for culture in crypto. At

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Speaker 1: that moment, there wasn't quite one yet. Everyone participating in

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Speaker 1: crypto was heavily financially oriented, and NFTs really became the

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Speaker 1: first framework where culture could enter crypto. Artists could actually

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Speaker 1: create digital artwork and have that be stored on chain,

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Speaker 1: and we were just the community layer on top of that.

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Speaker 1: Movement that saw a need to connect creators, technologists, developer

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Speaker 1: subject knowledge experts, people who were first timers, and to

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Speaker 1: create a fun space of camaraderie where folks could learn,

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Speaker 1: share and exchange knowledge together while also playing with the

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Speaker 1: fundamental technology itself. So yeah, so you've got a culturally

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Speaker 1: oriented membership club where the value of that collective is

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Speaker 1: more formally recognized than others and maybe more fairly distributed

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Speaker 1: than the historical analogies were often familiar with. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I'll add the last point, which I think it helps

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Speaker 1: click it for a lot of people, is those tokens

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Speaker 1: beyond value cruel are also the fundamental way you vote

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Speaker 1: in the network. So it's how you're able to put

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Speaker 1: up a proposal to fund an artist in residency program.

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Speaker 1: It's how you're able to vote on how we want

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Speaker 1: to change the network. Recently, community members proposed actually merging

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Speaker 1: two membership tiers because they were unsatisfied with one of

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Speaker 1: the membership tiers and they said, this is actually a

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Speaker 1: lackluster experience, and we want to propose merging these two

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Speaker 1: experiences together. And that was brought up by a community

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Speaker 1: member that went to a very contentious debate and it

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Speaker 1: passed and it's been implemented, and so it's one of

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Speaker 1: those is where how I think about it is, imagine

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Speaker 1: if the first thousand users or Facebook could actually weigh

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Speaker 1: in on the advertising model. That's how I approach and

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Speaker 1: think about this is would that have changed the outcomes?

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Speaker 1: And that vote not just being like a pole system

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Speaker 1: that actually doesn't care any weight, like Elon running on

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Speaker 1: Twitter doing polls all day. That vote is actually the

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Speaker 1: fundamental stock or equity or value cruel of that organization

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Speaker 1: and that entity itself, Like that became really really interesting

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Speaker 1: to us. Yeah, and that part fascinates me as well,

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Speaker 1: because merely having money in the system, you know, charging

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Speaker 1: for use of the service can give you us a

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Speaker 1: greater sense of one to pick up trash. But being

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Speaker 1: an owner is a whole other thing. So being a

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Speaker 1: subscriber is very different from being an owner and then

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Speaker 1: having say in the decision even the structure of the

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Speaker 1: thing itself. That's just it's distributing power in this form

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Speaker 1: of the practice. Then, as you said, there's a big spectrum.

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Speaker 1: What are the other ways that someone experiences that value

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Speaker 1: or cruel. I'm a member of this thing, I get

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Speaker 1: to propose, I get to vote, I get to launch

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Speaker 1: external experiments, and overall the value of my tokens might rise.

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Speaker 1: How else there's value accumulation experience by these participants. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think without being corny, corny, it's okay'll be corny. Like,

433
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: you know, an inside joke or a meme inside of

434
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: our community is maybe the benefits were the friends we

435
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: made along the way. You know that I didn't write

436
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: that try to warn me and I against my judgment.

437
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,479
Speaker 1: I gave you the benefit of the j but you know,

438
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: without being corny, I read and I was like, that's

439
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: actually true. Like I think what transcends all of this

440
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: is it's not really about the money. The money, you know, currency, financials,

441
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: money is a is a weird thing, and it makes

442
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: things interesting. It makes things dark, it makes things exciting.

443
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: It places value on things that might not need to

444
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: even have value placed onto them. But we can all

445
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: agree money is interesting and ultimately the community currency is

446
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: a vehicle for the conversation that ultimately drives the connection.

447
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: And that's what's interesting to me full stop, is just

448
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: the people who have met and connected through friends with benefits,

449
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: who have become co founders, who have become business partners,

450
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: who have received funding for their nonprofits, to you know,

451
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: met their life partners. It's it's been incredible to see

452
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: and those are I think anyone who who's in movement

453
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: building or community building, the ultimate like aha moment is

454
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: always when that compounds over. You know, we've been doing

455
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: now for two and a half years, not a long time,

456
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: but to see now full companies that have gone on

457
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: and built incredible things in the ecosystem because they met

458
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: in a chat room is always really really exciting. It's

459
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: not an open community. There's an application process, there's a cost.

460
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: How does one become a friend with benefits? So right now,

461
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: essentially we think about it as a citizenship and tourism. Okay,

462
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: so there's citizenship as in, if you want to become

463
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 1: a member, you apply, and the community read your application

464
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 1: and votes on it and welcomes you in. And essentially

465
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: all we're looking for is that you're here and you

466
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: want to contribute. So step one application application, then the

467
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: community votes, and then if that application is accepted, you're

468
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: then sent instructions and a welcome email, college admission vibes,

469
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: and you're onboarded and there's all these new member, welcome

470
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: hangs and all this sort of stuff, and what's the tuition.

471
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: The tuition is seventy five tokens, which I fluctuates from

472
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: five hundred bucks to seven hundred field bucks. And once

473
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: you're in, you're able to go float around our digital city.

474
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: There's hundreds of channels in the discord. We've actually built

475
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: our own mobile app and it has its own social

476
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,479
Speaker 1: feed and so there's all these digital connections. But that

477
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: is a portal into the hundreds of events that are

478
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: organized by the community around the world in your city

479
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 1: to be able to interact and connect with people in

480
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: real life, as well as getting access to various different

481
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: digital and physical goods, products and sort of services from merchandise, apparel, cold,

482
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: you know whatever, the community sort of making and creating.

483
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: That's what membership looks like. That's what citizenship looks like.

484
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: And that citizenship allows you to fundamentally vote. Let's you vote,

485
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: have a say, put proposals up, and contribute to and

486
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: of all the network itself. Tourism is how you participate

487
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: in FWB. If you don't want to be a member,

488
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: you can actually participate in various different physical events, digital

489
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: events just by holding f TOBB tokens much lower threshold

490
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: one to five FWB, from ten bucks to fifty bucks,

491
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: and you're able to go to various different things that

492
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: are all organized by the community. And our hope is

493
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: that you know, if you like visiting our city, you'll

494
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: eventually want to move here. Who are these members or

495
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: the tourists where what kind of people are signing up

496
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: at this point or have signed up at this point? Yeah,

497
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: I think there are people who come from a whole

498
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: swath of different backgrounds, but mostly cultural backgrounds are music, entertainment, technology, etc.

499
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: Who are interested in how crypto might affect their industry

500
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: or their space. It's folks who are asking these kinds

501
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: of questions who are interested in the role that this

502
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: might play in it and are looking to connect with

503
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: other people in this space who are here for bigger

504
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: reasons beyond just you know, making a lot of money

505
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: or flipping NFTs or buying tokens. Like it's really people

506
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: who are fundamentally interested in the technology itself and it's

507
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: implications for culture. That sounds very familiar, That sounds actually

508
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: pretty attractive. How much money all got in the bank,

509
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: You got these tokens, You've raised money. Part of the

510
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: whole thing is a group chat with the bank account.

511
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: So what's the treasury like? Yeah, what's cool is the

512
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: treasury is all in chain, so everyone can see and

513
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: view all in real time. The assets that this community holds.

514
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: I think it's about eighteen nineteen million US dollars worth

515
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 1: of sort of various different assets. And you know, at

516
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: its peak was like fifty million dollars and you know

517
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: about six eight months ago. Okase on the fluctuations of

518
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: the tokens and other tokens that we hold from ethereum

519
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: to other community tokens that we hold for subcommunities that

520
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: have spawned out of FWB. But yeah, the treasury probably

521
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: holds right about in eighteen twenty million dollars right now.

522
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: A value in there, and what in your view are

523
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: a couple of the coolest things to emerge from this

524
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: community from this environment, whether it's a product and app,

525
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: a relationship, a tool, What my dad look like? What

526
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: has that look like? Yeah, let's see. I mean earlier

527
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: this summer, we threw our first community produced festival, which

528
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: was really rad. We rented out a Liberal arts campus

529
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: outside of Los Angeles. Seven hundred community members came down

530
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: for that and we threw a three day sort of

531
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: symposium that featured music from James Blake, Jpeg Mafia, and

532
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: one o Tricks Point Never to talks and discussions and

533
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: discourse from leading sort of experts in the community and

534
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: outside of the community, with a full culinary program and

535
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: wellness program, And it was absolutely incredible and all the

536
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: community members, you know, half the lineup was community members

537
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: who offered up their talents or their skills and were

538
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: compensated in tokens for their sort of contribution. So that

539
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: was just a really incredible highlight of the year for

540
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: me to see this digital city, which can kind of

541
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: feel kind of alien like or foreign or sterile, to

542
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: then see everyone in real life and it totally felt

543
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: surprising and refreshing to meet someone that I had shared

544
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: a digital experience with for the last two years to

545
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: spend time in person. You know, a lot of us

546
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: grew up on internet forums. I think that's also another

547
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: common threat of FWB community members is a lot of

548
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: us were early early you know, music forums, punk forums,

549
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: aol aim chat rooms. You know. Our average age breakdown

550
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: is I would say, like mid twenties to like late

551
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: thirties and so a lot of folks being very familiar

552
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: with forum culture and sort of that now spelling into

553
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: sort of IRL world is an interesting thing that's been explored.

554
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: So I would say that's been an amazing highlight. And

555
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: the one I'm most excited about is just us actually

556
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: building our own social network. So we're in sort of

557
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: like beta mode right now. We've got about one hundred

558
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: community members on there who are like battle testing it

559
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: right now. We're planning on releasing it Q one of

560
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: next year. And the idea as essentially, you know, everything

561
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: to date has been run on top of a discord.

562
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: Discord is essentially run platform comes with its fair share

563
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: of challenges. It's very hard to hit that learning curve

564
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: of how do you filter through hundreds of channel yeah,

565
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: completely synchronous messages with no seemingly order to the chaos,

566
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: and it's like slack on cocaine. It's like slack on coke, Yeah, exactly,

567
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: exactly with thousand and you can imagine that with thousands

568
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: and thousands of people chatting every single day, you get

569
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: tagged in something and you can't find it. Yeah. And

570
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: so after serving the landscape and trying out a couple

571
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: different solutions, our community decided to build our own, so

572
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: we've been building sort of our own mobile app experience

573
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: that is actually primarily sort of image base for now

574
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: and allows for the community to share almost like an

575
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: Instagram or TikTok, share content within this community. That also

576
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: aggregates all the events happening in our community as well

577
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: as all the profiles so everyone can connect and add friends,

578
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: as well as the governance so inside of the app

579
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: itself you can put proposals up to change and evolve

580
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: the network itself, which is also such an for me.

581
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: It's an easy lead to go from what if that

582
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: were the experience in my other social networks and it's

583
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: the missing piece. Those decisions are being made but by

584
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 1: invisible committees that I have really no sway over, more

585
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: of a bid, every choice to join or not to join. Okay, Alex,

586
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: you're the mayor. You've used the word city like thirty times.

587
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: You said you elected yourself, which sounds like a dictator.

588
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: Just frame this for me about what does it mean

589
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: for you to be the mayor and do this facilitation

590
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: that you've described, and how does the city metaphor apply

591
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: In a little bit more detailed to f TOVV. Yeah.

592
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: So it all started when this was sort of being

593
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: built and we were all in real time like asking

594
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: ourselves like what is this. Every day new people were joining,

595
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, Press loves to kind of put their stamp

596
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: of approval or disapproval on things, and all of a sudden,

597
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: the narrative was to centralized soho house, which you can

598
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: clearly see why a lot of us were eye rolling

599
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: to that and being like, that doesn't totally feel like

600
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,479
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do here. Instead, we were interested in,

601
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: really like, what does an online community on steroids look like?

602
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: Like this felt more like a subreddit that had its

603
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: own economy than like a member's club that was like

604
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: about eating forty dollars salmons and you know, schmoozing. We

605
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: were more interested in, just like, what is an online

606
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: community that actually builds its own economies look like? And

607
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: someone in the community actually said, FWB isn't actually a

608
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: company or a Deessentiliz solo house. FWB is a city

609
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: that isn't physically distributed yet, and that for some reason clicked.

610
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: We were on a town hall with hundreds of us.

611
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: We do town halls every month. Where we talk about

612
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: issues in the community, and we all ask ourselves, wait,

613
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: this totally is like a city, just abstract away the

614
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: physicality of it. Yeah, like we are a city in

615
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: that if you were to ask what type of person

616
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 1: does New York City attract? We could all clearly, you know,

617
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: break down stereotypes or types of people that thrive in

618
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 1: New York But you cannot pinpoint one user of New

619
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: York City and so people who like pain, people who

620
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: love pain exactly, massacists and so and so. For us,

621
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: we were like, wait, that is totally how we want

622
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: to steward and build FWB. We want to FVB to

623
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: be open to everybody. Yes, New York City issive. Yes,

624
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: New York City is known for its culture and for

625
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: its food and for its art, similar to f TOVV

626
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: being known for its culture and its art and its

627
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: cultural sort of proximity. But ultimately, New York City is

628
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: what you make of it, as is FTVV is what

629
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: you sort of make of it. And so once we

630
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: started to run through that analogy and we began to

631
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: really explore various different urban theory and urban planning frameworks

632
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: to how we should grow AFTERVB, things started to make

633
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: a lot more sense. So for example, not running AFTERBB

634
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: like a startup or a company that seeks that's everybody else?

635
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: Does that? Everybody? We want? Interesting? The premise is that

636
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: your social network, your digital gathering space, your online community

637
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: needs to be a business totally. And you said no

638
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: one needs to be a city. To continue on what

639
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: that difference feels like. Yeah, and so when you call

640
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: something a business, a business exists to drudge profit and

641
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: profit comes from hopefully your revenue is more than your expenses,

642
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: and then that extra amount gets distributed to owners. Cooperatives

643
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: are interesting because that surplus gets distributed to the entire pie.

644
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: But we were really interested in a city framework because

645
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: we thought, instead of thinking about pure profit, how do

646
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: we actually think about GDP, How do we actually think

647
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: about expanding economic activity of the network. How do we

648
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: actually think about income per individual? How can we think

649
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: about generating opportunities for people inside an FTVV? How do

650
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: we think about our import and our export strategy where

651
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: we can actually import goods and export goods and capture

652
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: fee on those goods that go back to the treasury

653
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: and utilize the community as a cooperative to essentially promote

654
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: and distribute those various different goods or products or services.

655
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: And so we began experimenting with a couple of things

656
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: to test that thesis out. Early on, we began to

657
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: create artwork in the form of NFTs. We had so

658
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: many artists, visual artists, graphic artists inside the community who

659
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: we're experimenting with NFT technology. And Eric, who an amazing designer,

660
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: created a project called Monarchs, which were these beautiful digitally

661
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: generative butterflies. And you know, he had a long back.

662
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: He was the creative director at Essence and Nike, and

663
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: he created this amazing butterfly project that generated three million

664
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: dollars in terms of primary sales, and he chose to

665
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: give f TOWB you know, ten percent of that revenue

666
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: back to the treasury in exchange for the community itself

667
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: supporting and uplifting that artist. That generated you know, close

668
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: to half a million, seven hundred thousand dollars within the

669
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: course of that sale, which then we used to begin

670
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: to fund various different art programs and other experiences inside

671
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: of F TOWB. So, you know, thinking about the idea that, okay,

672
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: how do we actually expand economic activity of a cohort

673
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: of individuals as opposed to primary business models of communities

674
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: to date, which are like recurring subscriptions, were charging an

675
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: entry fee and monetizing explicitly on how many users come

676
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: in to your individual network. So let me pause you there.

677
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: The example that you gave. My first question was like,

678
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: why would an artist run it through FWB when they

679
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: can just launch their thing? But there was a value

680
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: exchange of the kind right promotion distribution marketing, which could

681
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 1: cost money. Your GDP analogy is really interesting to me,

682
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: and I saw a comment from Tanya Fox and the

683
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: chat Hello Tanya, So I want to plug this one

684
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: in right now. There's limits to the value of GDP,

685
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: right Like GDP doesn't capture all sorts of things. GDP

686
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: is a measure of planetary destruction in some ways as well.

687
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: So how much does your city metaphor adhere to methods

688
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: of city management that we're trying to get away from

689
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: versus more sustainable, regenerative ways of managing city collectively that

690
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: we want to approach and be more like? Yeah, absolutely,

691
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: I mean obviously our city analogy is is quite theoretical.

692
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: We're very much not leaning exclusively on running urban infrastructure

693
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: play here. I think it's really just looking at really

694
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: alternatives to running profit in businesses in terms of community

695
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: organized platforms. So it's really less about like, oh, everything

696
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: we do has to follow the city analogy. It's more

697
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: borrowing and remixing components that feel more organic to community

698
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: driven projects. And so I at least believe that if

699
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: your primary product are users and people, there should be

700
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: a way to attribute value and grow value for those individuals,

701
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: as opposed to just purely extracting value from those individuals.

702
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: After the break, what elections and voting on the blockchain

703
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 1: look like and what we can learn about economics from

704
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: the club. Yes, we talk in nightclubs. It's such a

705
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: great episode. I'm curious about the decision making structure of FWB.

706
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: You don't as mayor impose your will in the community.

707
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: You've talked about people floating proposals and their tokens allow

708
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: them to vote, but high level of view how our

709
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: decisions made and how our proposals floated and voted a

710
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: pun So right now, I would I always say the

711
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: FWB runs much more like a representative democracy as opposed

712
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: to a direct democracy. So we've had a lot of

713
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: roles that have been sort of put up for a vote,

714
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: an election, and then the community votes that person in

715
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: because I believe, you know, tragedy of the comments. You know,

716
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: the whole notion that if you have just like thousands

717
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: of people making thousands of decisions, you know, you kind

718
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: of get a pretty chaotic mess. But if you have

719
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 1: a thousand people sort of electing a group of decision

720
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: makers with the right sort of checks and balances put

721
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: in place of sort of say impeachment in an extreme scenario,

722
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: to just various different checkpoints along the way, you can

723
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: actually run a somewhat symbiotic, flat sort of leadership structure.

724
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: Because the truth is also a majority of people don't

725
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: want to lead. A lot of people just want to

726
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: be along for the ride. Not everyone wants to like

727
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: necessarily work inside of a cooperative. And so in our instance,

728
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, a third and a half

729
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: of our roles have been elected in terms of like

730
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: the community as some role where it's you know, whether

731
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: there's the city representatives or they're in specific roles, and

732
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: then other roles are a little bit more evergreen, as

733
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of like just keeping you know,

734
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like a lot of

735
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: this is theoretical and where we are like a two

736
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: year old experiment that a lot of it requires just

737
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: keeping the lights on, you know, our legal team, our

738
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: operational team, myself, like various different folks. Where if I

739
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: was just going up for election every single year, I

740
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: think it would get quite exhausting quite soon. But the

741
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: goal very much is as FTBB continues to decentralize. It

742
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: was started centrally by one person with a founder. It's

743
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: now past leadership hands multiple times. I anticipate my involvement

744
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: in a sort of a mayoral capacity for another year

745
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: or so before another person is able to step in.

746
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: Once we've hit a couple of key sort of legal

747
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: milestones and operational milestones of how it can function, that

748
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: f TOBB can continue to decentralize and be governed by

749
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: its token holders or its community. What does the town

750
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: hall feel like? How do those operate? How many people

751
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: show they're electric? It's I mean literally because they're on

752
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: like a server. Yeah exactly that man figuratively. But they're fun.

753
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: You know, they're there are a chance for us to

754
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: check in, me, to check in with the community. You know,

755
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: we'll throw them on zoom no different like this. People

756
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: are chatting all day and asking questions. You know, we

757
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: usually have some sort of a presentation. It's almost like

758
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: our board meeting where we'll present to the community of

759
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: like metrics, projects, accomplishments, areas of improvement, and then we

760
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: open it up for questions. And so it's a mix

761
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: between a town hall to an Apple keynote presentation of

762
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: exciting shiny products and events and things that have emerged

763
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: from the community. And it's very much round robin where

764
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: we pass the mic around and allow different folks in

765
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: different sort of team leads who've worked on really great

766
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: projects to share what they're working on. You know, from

767
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: our editor of an editorial platform that sort of covers

768
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: news and essays across culture and Web three, and that

769
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: has a really interesting perspective. In POV, it's definitely more

770
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: on the more critical side of Web three, which we

771
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: love in terms of ways it can improve. And it's

772
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: not just crypto crypto crypto, but talking about the downsides

773
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: of constitution dow and how it lost its way, or

774
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, diversity issues of diversity and inclusion in Web

775
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: three and how that can be improved, all the way

776
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: to our product team providing updates. But yeah, it's very

777
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: much like a fun way where we're able to check

778
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: in and communicate information as well as create a space

779
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: where people can just share how their experiences. So you've

780
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: used this representative democracy analogy. You even have town halls

781
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: like physical cities. Do I'm wondering if you also see

782
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: FWB as this sandbox for experiments for ways to practice

783
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: new methods of communal self governance. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean

784
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: the whole thing is a massive experiment every day and

785
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: we tell ourselves that, and within that experiment is a

786
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: myriad of micro experiments from like quorum based voting to

787
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: quadratic voting systems. Like we're really much on the forefront

788
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: of exploring new forms of voting mechanics that are beyond

789
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: one person, one vote or one token one vote. But

790
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: instead let me Yeah, I do want to get wonky

791
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: about that, because I think part of the spirit of

792
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: my question is I think so many of us feel

793
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: collectively uninspired by democratic small D democratic practice actually means.

794
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: And so we have our ritual voting experience, and we

795
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: have our built in lack of faith and trust in

796
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: our representatives in our representative democracy, and we are fatigued

797
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: by the influence of outside money and all these things. Cool. Cool,

798
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 1: So yes, double tap on that one. In terms of

799
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: the decision making tools you are playing with, can you

800
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: define the quadratic voting, define the quorum based thing as

801
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: opposed to just one token, one vote, one person, one

802
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: vote as we know in the outside world. Yeah, totally,

803
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: So trout voting frameworks one person, one vote, Right, you're

804
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: a citizen's sort of registered to your identification, you can

805
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: cost one vote. In crypto, that's a little bit more

806
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: hard because of what it's called civilly resistant, meaning it's

807
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: actually very difficult to verify that one person is actually

808
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: one person, right, because it's one wallet, one vote, and

809
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: so someone can create hundreds of ghost wallets and be

810
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: able to vote because there's no real identification system in cryptocurrency. Honestly,

811
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: no different than being able to spin up dozens of

812
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: fake Facebook accounts to be able to go right, because

813
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: you just create infinite email addresses, create up new Facebook accounts,

814
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: and then imagine that tied to a voting heroistory. So

815
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: that's one person, one vote, one wallet, one vote. Then

816
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: there's one token, one vote, which obviously the red flags

817
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: go off of like, well, if you just have more tokens,

818
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: you get more voting. So then they begin just how

819
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: your current system feels like it works exactly. So then

820
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: que quadratic voting, which is a way to sort of

821
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: de emphasize one token, one vote while still giving power

822
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: to people who have accumulated tokens, because ultimately accumulating tokens

823
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,479
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have to be singularly a bad thing. Many

824
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: people enough to bebe earned their tokens for contributing and

825
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: working and showing up to events, and so one might

826
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: posit you deserve more say in the network because you

827
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: actively have shown up and you've actively been to town halls,

828
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: and you are a valued member of this network. So

829
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: quadratic is essentially a way to create an add weight

830
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: in voting of those tokens, and it allows for you

831
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: to place a level of confidence quadratically into quadrants to

832
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 1: say this is how much I actually care about this decision,

833
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: And it condenses the level of voting so that let's

834
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 1: say you have one token and I have one hundred

835
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: tokens on a one token, one vote, that would be

836
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: very stark, and a more quadratic format that might be

837
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: trunk because the weight that you're applying to yours. You

838
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: might your total sum exactly. You might be like, you

839
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: know what, I actually don't care about this that much,

840
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: so I'm going to put on a one to ten.

841
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to allocate ten percent to this. But you know,

842
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: it'd be cool if it passes, but my life doesn't

843
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: change if it doesn't. Versus a major proposal, and like

844
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: everything is on the line, like you know, an election.

845
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: We explored quadratic polling with Audrey Tangue from Taiwan, and

846
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: exactly this infrastructure, which just reveals a different level I

847
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: would say, a lower level of seeming polarization. Yes, because

848
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: when you ask by any request and did you get

849
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: binary answers exactly weighted questions and you get weighted and

850
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: nucunced answers, and so counting votes in that way is

851
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: also very interesting. Why, Alex, other than the sort of

852
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: potential scamming of like multiple wallets coordinating to vote attacks,

853
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: what is your incentive to experiment with these methods of

854
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: digital civic participation? Why are you messing around? I just

855
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: think it's fun, you know, I think like I think

856
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: like so much of civics is boring right now and unengaged,

857
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: and like you said, we're all bored and looking for

858
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: new outcomes and new ways to engage with those outcomes.

859
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: And I think for us, like where overall, civic participation

860
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: is probably waning, and the younger kids get, the less

861
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: they even care, it seems, and ultimately we're interested in

862
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: shifting that narrative and that perception of civic participation to

863
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: not just equating to voting in a presidential election or

864
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: voting in a local, you know, district election, but insteady

865
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: voting in spaces you care about being one of them,

866
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: digital being one that our kids are probably spending eighty

867
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: percent of their days and lives in. And so I

868
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: think creating more interesting ways for people to have a

869
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,919
Speaker 1: say in their digital spaces that doesn't need to feel

870
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: so complicated but can feel fun is something that we

871
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: really really care about. So a fun example for that

872
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: would be we started organizing these events through the community

873
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: all over the world, and we thought, wouldn't it be

874
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: fun if we could actually elect city leads to top

875
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: in a little bit more budget to throw bigger and

876
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: more fun events and almost have a little bit more

877
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: sort of jurisdiction over a specific city and oh yeah,

878
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: a little bit more autonomy. And so what we ended

879
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: up seeing was dozens of people apply, submit campaign videos,

880
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: create campaign strategies to become the LA lead in the

881
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: New York lead, in a London lead, in San Francisco lead.

882
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 1: And then all that was running in a massive election

883
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: where we had people like postering and going on podcasts.

884
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: It was so fun to see and all of that

885
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: to me was just like, I hope this encourages people

886
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: just to even go out and vote in their towns

887
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: and their cities, because clearly you can see how fun

888
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: this is to just give people power and to pick

889
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,959
Speaker 1: your favor in a root for someone on a micro level,

890
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: which I think local is important, and that local, you know,

891
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 1: sort of just drives more engagement because it feels closer

892
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: to home. Yo, you were singing my tune. I don't

893
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: know that I've ever shared with you that I was

894
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: mayor a four square Like I won an award for

895
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 1: being the best mayor in the four Square universe and

896
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 1: I competed with someone for the mayorship of one Venue

897
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: in New York City and Nolita, and we had campaign

898
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: rallies and we both signs and we did. We picketed

899
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: each other's moments, and it just it made civics fun,

900
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: even though that was a sandbox we were playing and

901
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: we had no ownership over the platform plan the main

902
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: technology fun. I mean, that sounds so fun four square

903
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: back then, and like now we're left with these massive,

904
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: behemoth social networks that don't feel fun anymore. So I

905
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 1: want to build on that, and I'm seeing a bridge

906
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: and I hope that this is where it can go.

907
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: If more people participate in social taws like this with

908
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: the city metaphor rather than the business growth metaphor, it's

909
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: a chance to play around with democratic culture. It's a

910
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: chance to kind of use those muscles of not just voting,

911
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: even quadratically, but contributing. What you described about sort of

912
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: having your civic contributions recognized by attending events, by showing

913
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: up for town hall meetings, by bringing your offerings to

914
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: the community, to participate even economically, and that rather than

915
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: just keeping it to yourself, so resource distribution. I want

916
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: to see that practice replicated beyond the discord server right,

917
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 1: and beyond the FWB app. Do you see that bridge happening.

918
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: Do you think that this online civic innovation practice can

919
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: affect our offline civic innovation practice. Yeah. Absolutely. I think

920
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: it's all modeled behavior, right. I think if people can

921
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: begin to see that these annas are fun and they

922
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: work and they can improve something, it might restore faith

923
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: in the overall system and structure itself, which then might

924
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: encourage more sort of ripple out effects for people to

925
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: get involved in their own local organizations or their own

926
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: local cooperatives or groups. So our focus at least is

927
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: to really think about, you know, the role that crypto

928
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: can plain culture. You know, we want to be advocates

929
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: of crypto. We know crypto has been cursed with a

930
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: case of really really bad pr and rightfully so, tons

931
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 1: of scammers, tons of charlatans. It's a very muddled space,

932
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: but for us, we care about being advocates for it.

933
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 1: We threw an event in New York at Good Room,

934
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: a legendary club in green Point that was really struggling

935
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: during COVID, a bar venue that has been a sort

936
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: of a bedrock of Brooklyn for ten years. And we

937
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: threw a party, and we did an auction with all

938
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: the proceeds to go to that venue and raised sixty

939
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: seventy k in crypto and taught that venue how to

940
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: set up a wallet, had to custody that those assets,

941
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: how to earn you more of those assets that ultimately

942
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: they said helped them achieve fifty cent of their fundraising goal,

943
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: be a kickscharter. Things like that. We just want to

944
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: show people that crypto doesn't all have to be bad.

945
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't all have to be about gatekeeping. Isn't all

946
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,959
Speaker 1: have to be about scams. There's people building interesting things

947
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: in this space. It's coming whether we like it or not.

948
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: And we hope to be one of those corners of

949
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: the Internet that uses crypto in an interesting way to

950
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: show folks that it can accrue different forms of value

951
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: beyond just financial and it can lead to stronger human coordination,

952
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: can lead to better incentive design, and can hopefully create

953
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: new digital spaces that are more closely and sort of

954
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: self or community governed than our existing options. I want

955
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: to spend three more hours with you. I can't do that.

956
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: What I can do, though, is reflect briefly on the

957
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: crypto comment as a bridge to the role of economics

958
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: in general. You've cited Wendell Berry, this poet, novelist, environmentalist,

959
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 1: saying a community to be whole must also be an economy.

960
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: My cards are open, I hold some crypto assets. I'm

961
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: a member of some dolls. I'm also deeply critical of

962
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: the idea that we need to financialize things in order

963
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 1: to innovate them, while I'm also excited by new models

964
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: of ownership. So I'm conflicted, but informedly optimistically skeptical, and

965
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: hearing that quote about community to be real must also

966
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: be an economy that rubs me a little odd. It

967
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: sounds a little controversial, and I'm like, does it though,

968
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,760
Speaker 1: at least the way we have recognized economy with infinite

969
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: growth and all the harm that comes along with it.

970
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: So can you just explore that a little bit with me?

971
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? Why do you cite

972
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: that statement, and how do you think it means we

973
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: should practice community truly? Yeah, I love that question. I

974
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: think we need to decouple the definition of economy from

975
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: like late stage capitalistic American economy. I think economy as

976
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: a definition is just an exchange. And so when I

977
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 1: say that a community to be whole must also be

978
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: an economy, I do not mean a community to be

979
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 1: a whole must be a late stage capitalist profit driven

980
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: to tea. An economy doesn't even need necessarily be money.

981
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: It can be an economy of non financial goods. You know,

982
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: if you study sort of like who the author but

983
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: debt the first thousand years, the first quarter of the book,

984
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 1: like it's the history of debt and how debt was created,

985
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,720
Speaker 1: and they study how most of these sort of groups

986
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: and tribes and organizations of people existed and scaled by trading,

987
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: you know, leila cloths and seashells and various different goods,

988
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: and currency was just the most effective way to actually

989
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: create a ledger of one goat equaling you know, six

990
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 1: cows or whatever. And I can only speak to the experience,

991
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: I know, as I'm not an economist, and I you know,

992
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: I'm a club kid. Clubs have economies. You're trading and

993
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: bartering backstage tickets, drugs, drink tickets, experiences, sex, whatever it

994
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 1: might be. There's an economy there, there's an exchange of energy,

995
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: there's an exchange of experiences. Because I think any community

996
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: that has actually begun to grow an identity, there is

997
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: always an inherent urge I believe to create, to create memes,

998
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: and I use memes. Is the broad conceptual thing, to

999
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: create shared language, to create culture, and an economy. An

1000
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: exchange of those components, whether the financial assets or non

1001
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: financial assets, feel incredibly native and organic, an emergent. And

1002
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: so yeah, when I quote Barry, I don't mean that

1003
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: every community needs to have a token, or every community

1004
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: needs to be financialized or should exist to drive profit.

1005
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: Any community that has meaning, there are probably ways in

1006
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: which that community exchanges things between each other. Whether it's

1007
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 1: a potlock and they all bring you food to a house,

1008
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: that's a form of an exchange of value being exchanged

1009
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: across one another. Thank you for that update. The book

1010
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 1: is Debt The First five Thousand Years by anthropologist David Graber.

1011
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: Y'all did a census, Mayor you did an FWB census,

1012
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: and we touched on this. You know. One of the

1013
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 1: pieces of feedback was that the discord was overwhelming, said

1014
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 1: it was a fire hose, And so you're trying to

1015
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: solve that, right, you already announced this app and that's

1016
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: going to help that out. But do you think in

1017
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: terms of the scale that a DOO could get how big? Right?

1018
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 1: Do you think a DOO could work at the scale

1019
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: of a nation or a major city or something in

1020
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: between a state. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean I'm not a

1021
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: huge subscriber of bology network state. I think he can

1022
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 1: be a little bit too techno utopian. But like BLOGI

1023
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: Strinivasian who wrote a book called Network State, which is

1024
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: digital cities and digital nation states. Look, yeah, I think

1025
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: dows could reach that scale, right. I think you're seeing

1026
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: dials that have now accrued sixty seventy eighty million dollars

1027
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: worth of assets, which could probably become comparable to super

1028
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:43,919
Speaker 1: super small towns. I think it's only amount of time,

1029
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: our cities the only amoutter of time before some of

1030
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: those dows begin to actually connect and trade with each other,

1031
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: forming super dows. I think that's totally in the world

1032
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: for But I think maybe the question under your question

1033
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: is like, what does that actually look like? What does

1034
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: it take to get there? You know? I think ultimately

1035
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,399
Speaker 1: anything that reaches the scale of a nation state will

1036
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: ultimately become a network of dows. There will be subdows

1037
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:07,399
Speaker 1: as we call them in sort of our space, where

1038
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: you have micro committees or organizations that custody their own assets,

1039
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: that trade and interoperate with the parent dow organization in

1040
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: interesting ways. That ultimately that network itself, you can call it,

1041
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, federalist, you know, states versus

1042
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: the nation. However, people would want to structure it. Right now,

1043
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 1: it's still super early, and it's still super reflective based

1044
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: on a larger crypto economy. But I totally see a

1045
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 1: world of wunch. DOWS can reach very large sets of

1046
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: scale that end up becoming sort of networks or nests

1047
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: of smaller organizations. One thing that I'm intrigued by is

1048
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about a divestment from the IRL universe in

1049
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: favor of online universes. I think that's what freaks me

1050
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: out so much about Zuckerberg's vision of the metaverse, that

1051
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: we're just going to live with goggle strapped to our

1052
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: faces and as it eventually, just have like catheters and

1053
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: feeding tubes and never leave our shelves. You know, well

1054
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: we kind of stored inside, but we'll have all this

1055
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: rich life through the screens. I want to see the combination, right,

1056
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: I want to see us use digital tools to enhance

1057
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: not just our digital lives, but our whole lives. And

1058
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: so thinking about DOWS, what if we flipped it a

1059
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: little bit and said Okay, you're already a member of

1060
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: an apartment complex or a county or a city, and

1061
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: as a part of that residential relationship or that physical relationship,

1062
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: you get a DOW membership too, to enhance your ability

1063
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: to self govern with others. And so you're not kind

1064
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: of trading one for the other, you're hopefully using one

1065
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: to inform the other. Have you seen anything like that?

1066
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: What do you think about that idea of kind of

1067
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: a complementary DOW or online governance community rather than a

1068
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: substitution for physical community. I mean, that's by far what's

1069
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,479
Speaker 1: most exciting to us, right. I think we all don't

1070
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: subscribe to zucks Daddy Zucks, you know, metaverse link up,

1071
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, goggle Verse is not interesting to us either.

1072
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: We've we've always said technologies to accentuate reality and highlight

1073
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: physicality and be a lot more high fidelity, you know.

1074
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: I always say we live in the metaverse now, right,

1075
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: Like our phones are so connected to our lives and

1076
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: I can open it at this exact moment and find

1077
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: fifteen things to do in New York City and friends

1078
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: to connect with immediately and jump into it. And that

1079
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: to me feels like some liminal space between physical and digital,

1080
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: which is I think the actual definition of the metaverse

1081
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: in terms of Dows's applications to real world structures. Yeah,

1082
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: I love that. I think I saw someone in the

1083
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: comment mentioned city doos. You know a way that DAWs

1084
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: can steward land conservation and preservation. You know, I think

1085
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: for us we're very much coming at it from physical

1086
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: We're thinking about CANADAO actually govern a decentralized events network?

1087
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: You know, is there a way where daals can actually

1088
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: reward an allocate capital to people who want to throw

1089
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 1: events all over the world. That's something that I'm super

1090
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: interested and passionate about, you know, full loop to the

1091
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: beginning of like most things shouldn't be taos, I totally

1092
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: still stand by that most things don't need to live

1093
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: on the blockchain, most things don't need to be crypto based.

1094
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:07,479
Speaker 1: But in a world where that technology provides real value

1095
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: to that organizing structure, that I think a DOO is

1096
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: a really great thing to explore in terms of how

1097
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: you can create fundamental transparency and sort of value cruel

1098
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 1: to people who participate in that network. You've mentioned many

1099
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: times that doos are not required and that crypto is

1100
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: not required. I kind of want to emphasize that point.

1101
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: In season three of this series, we head on Pia

1102
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: Mancini of Open Collective, which has created this framework for

1103
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: organizations to collaborate around fundraising, legal, administrative, and offer full

1104
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: transparency around all those numbers so they can save money,

1105
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: but also show how they're using money, especially if they

1106
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,919
Speaker 1: are kind of decentralized organizations like mutual aid societies, etc.

1107
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: And don't have the budgets to hire their own lower,

1108
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: their own accountant, etc. You know, to what degree is

1109
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: the token of requirement versus money of some kind? Can

1110
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: it be credit cards? Can it be US dollars? To

1111
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 1: still achieve so many of the goals that you want,

1112
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: which is value, a cruel, transparency, and a sense of

1113
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:15,439
Speaker 1: participation beyond some concentrated group. I mean for transparency and value, cruel,

1114
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: those are the tenets of cryptocurrency, right, So I think, like,

1115
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: I don't know how you would enforce credit card transparency

1116
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: or you know, because those are all managed on centralized servers,

1117
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: you can't really look into that unless the company published

1118
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: publishes that data, and then there's no way to even

1119
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: verify that what they publishes. A hunters and occurate versus

1120
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: on the blockchain. No one can manipulate that. That's all

1121
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: run through smart contracts. So that's me baritune day here

1122
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: with an explainer Tune Day. Smart contracts were conceptualized by

1123
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: computer scientist and legal scholar Nick Zabo way back in

1124
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, and they've since been incorporated into blockchain

1125
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: networks that cryptocurrencies like ethereum and Bitcoin run on. To

1126
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 1: try to be as simple as possible. A smart contract

1127
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: is a computer program written into a blockchain, and it

1128
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: automatically executes the term of an agreement or contract when

1129
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 1: certain conditions are met. In theory, this eliminates the need

1130
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: for intermediaries like my very trustworthy accountant or lawyers or notaries,

1131
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: and help ensure that all kinds of contract terms are

1132
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: followed transparently and accurately. Now, smart contracts do have limitations.

1133
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: You've got to be able to express your contract terms

1134
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 1: in computer code. In the first place. That code is

1135
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: tamper proof, which is good for security, but bad if

1136
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 1: you make a mistake in the code or need to

1137
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: change the contract because you can't. And there's a lack

1138
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 1: of legal and regulatory clarity on how these contracts are

1139
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: treated by existing authorities. So overall, smart contracts are a

1140
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: great safeguard in theory, but they're still being worked out

1141
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: in practice. Sound familiar, kind of like democracy. Oh yeah,

1142
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: here we go. Anyway back to Alex's I'm having too

1143
01:01:55,240 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 1: much fun on the blockchain. No one can manipu like that.

1144
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: That's all run through smart contracts, So that to me

1145
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: addresses transparency value cruel. You know, sure value cruel can

1146
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: can be reflected in equity, which has been done in cooperatives.

1147
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,439
Speaker 1: That's you know, yeah, that totally solves that, but it's

1148
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: very hard to you know, I've invested in support a

1149
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: lot of different fractionalized equity companies. You know, we've seen

1150
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 1: so many of our friends raised companies on like micro

1151
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: equity fundraises. I think those are great and those are

1152
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 1: super effective. I just think they're very non favorable to

1153
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 1: non US clients, people who don't have bank accounts, people

1154
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:32,439
Speaker 1: who want to engage in it. It is a little

1155
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: bit limiting in that capacity as well. So there's a

1156
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: large animal in the room that I want us to address,

1157
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: which you've hinted at in terms of the scandals and

1158
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: controversies plaguing this whole crypto space, and we've had many,

1159
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: many collapses. The value of overall coins and tokens is

1160
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 1: down sbf ftx FWTF. Right, there's it's wild with the

1161
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 1: promises that were made in the mismanagement in something that

1162
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: was supposed to be transparent and help people without traditional banking,

1163
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, a crew value, and the opposite has happened

1164
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: in that case, but not just that case, many others.

1165
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: You're in this world. FWB is a part of this world.

1166
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: What's been the impact of the loss of trust in

1167
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: a system that was supposed to be a solution to

1168
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: the loss of trust in the system? I mean it's

1169
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: a real shame, right. I think crypto really has been

1170
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: the subject of really really bad pr for rightful reasons.

1171
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: And I think in any space that's so hyper financialized,

1172
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 1: you had a lot of people who flight it in

1173
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,439
Speaker 1: to make a quick buck. That's the issue with these

1174
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: hyper capitalist environments. It's effect on us, luckily, hasn't been massive,

1175
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: mostly because we've always operated in more of like sort

1176
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 1: of a social cultural space as opposed to like a

1177
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: purely defy financialized space. Sure, it's made people a little

1178
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: bit more hesitant to be like, okay, am I about

1179
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: to buy this token right now? Is that actually real thing?

1180
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: You know? I've had a lot of people come up

1181
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: between the last month and a half. Not FBB people,

1182
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 1: but more just like your aunt at Thanksgiving, who is

1183
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: like his crypto going to fully viscrate. Is it even

1184
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: going to be a thing anymore? Yes, it'll still be

1185
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: a thing, you know. It is going to continue to exist,

1186
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 1: just as a space for the industry to continue to

1187
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: evolve and step up and improve transparency. It's communication because frankly,

1188
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 1: what SPF showed and FTX has showed that FTX is

1189
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 1: actually a case where if it were actually decentralized, that

1190
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 1: would not have been possible. It would have all been transparent,

1191
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: it would have all been clear. You would have been

1192
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: able to see the movement of funds from various different

1193
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 1: on chain you know accounts to different on chain accounts.

1194
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 1: The issue was he ran a decentralized company incredibly centralized

1195
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 1: all around him, and so ultimately, while the whole thing

1196
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: is completely disastrous, he was an example of why more

1197
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: decentralized exchanges like UNISWAP are literally and technically impervious to

1198
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: what happened. It is impossible for that to occur because

1199
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: it is decentralized. Not if the entire UNISWAP team died,

1200
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 1: it would continue to run and exist and the exchange

1201
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: would continue to fulfill exchanges of currency. Like, that's really

1202
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: exciting to me. And what do you think will keep

1203
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: FWB on that side of things? Keep it from being

1204
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: phased out for the next shiny thing. We say, we're

1205
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: not a crypto community or a community that uses crypto,

1206
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: So I think as long as we keep community at

1207
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: the center of it, and we continue to play with

1208
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 1: the tools in an interesting way that enhances the community

1209
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 1: and we remain culture first, then we'll be fine. Culture

1210
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: waxes and WANs. Look at a fashion house. You'll have

1211
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 1: a great season and the next season it will be irrelevant,

1212
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: and then it'll come back. And you know, I think

1213
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: of scenes and communities as similar. You can't be the

1214
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 1: hot community forever. And ultimately, as long as you're creating

1215
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 1: real value, people are really connecting with each other, it's

1216
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 1: coming from a place of genuineness, I think will continue

1217
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,439
Speaker 1: to evolve. We actually kind of love bear markets because

1218
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: you actually attract people who are here for the right reasons.

1219
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 1: After we started in a bear market. We're now seeing

1220
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: more artists join, being like, all right, it's cheaper now,

1221
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 1: and I can actually experiment and the stakes feel less high,

1222
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: and I don't need to launch an art project that

1223
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: gets me global press like all my peers, and instead

1224
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 1: I can make a stupid little project and share it

1225
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 1: and have fun with it and not be stressed out.

1226
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: That's what we love versus in the bull market, it

1227
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: was everyone joining to jump onto the train, which is fine,

1228
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: but those people aren't the ones defining and creating the culture. Well,

1229
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: and my motivation and our strong motivation for having you

1230
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: here is to talk about the value of the self governance, experimentation.

1231
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: And if the price of experimentation is so high because

1232
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: the markets flooded with people who don't care at all

1233
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: about that, they just care about the financial speculation, then

1234
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:45,479
Speaker 1: they're actually crowding out our ability to learn from things

1235
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: like this to improve things. Well, beyond this, how has

1236
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: being part of a DOO affected the way you show

1237
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: up as a citizen, as a colleague, as a collaborator,

1238
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: as a member of community. My leadership style and all

1239
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 1: the organizations I've been fortunate to lead has always been

1240
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 1: much more of a facilitator. I've never been like a

1241
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: dictatorial do this because I say I'm the boss. Even

1242
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: in scenarios where I have been, you know, the CEO

1243
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: or whatnot, I've always enjoyed being sort of one that

1244
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: distributes power, one that uplifts and creates structures for qualify

1245
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 1: people to emerge into lead. Nothing makes me happier as

1246
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: a manager than when someone you're managing excels and exceeds

1247
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 1: and now is really owning a specific department or category.

1248
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: Dows is that with your users, which is so fun

1249
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: to me. Dows is that with your community members where

1250
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 1: anyone who's done community work, let's call a social nonprofit

1251
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: civil rights work knows it's about uplifting those people who

1252
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: are showing up to all the various different rallies and

1253
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: events and empowering them and to create sort of that

1254
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 1: network effect where ultimately, because of all volunteers, you're not

1255
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: even actually paying them. And so I think of that

1256
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: as like something that's always just been fundamental to my

1257
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: leadership style, and DAWs have just now supercharged that because

1258
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 1: now it's like a lot more literal. Now I can

1259
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 1: actually compensate them in sort of this native currency. Now

1260
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 1: their work can be recognized on chain through the format

1261
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:14,919
Speaker 1: of proposals, and that's created this really interesting loop where

1262
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,480
Speaker 1: now I show up in spaces that aren't even cryptospaces

1263
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 1: from you know, various different communities or nonprofits that I

1264
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 1: support or advise on, and try to bring some of

1265
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: that similar sort of consensus making between directions as opposed

1266
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 1: to like, I'm the boss, let's do this, because I

1267
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: just don't think that that's just not how I that's

1268
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 1: not a high lead. So it's giving you a place

1269
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: to practice more of what you been preaching. Us are Alex.

1270
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: We title this show how to Citizen because we believe

1271
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: citizen is a verb, not simply a noun and a

1272
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: legal status. It's something a lot more and it involves action.

1273
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: If you are to interpret citizen as a verb, how

1274
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: would you define it? What does it mean to citizen?

1275
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: To you? I think to citizen is to have an

1276
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: opinion and then to feel the sovereignty to be able

1277
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: to put that opinion into action and to collaborate. Citizen

1278
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 1: is that translation from opinion into action and that sort

1279
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 1: of forward energy momentum of feeling like you can actually

1280
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 1: make a difference in a structure. I think many of

1281
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: us have opinions about things, but we keep them to ourselves,

1282
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 1: or we mumble them or whisper them to a friend.

1283
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 1: But I think in so many different social structures, digital, physical,

1284
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 1: the ability to have an opinion on how something could

1285
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: improve or change and then be able to put that

1286
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: into action in a constructive and collaborative way. It feels

1287
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: like how I would citizen constructive and collaborative, because yeah,

1288
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 1: there's definitely no shortage of opinions, but that's for sure.

1289
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:43,800
Speaker 1: Moving them to action is another one. Alex, thank you

1290
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 1: so much for joining me for this conversation. Thanks for

1291
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:49,759
Speaker 1: having me. This was fun. Okay, we are shifting gears

1292
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:54,440
Speaker 1: into the community. Speaking of community and an audience questions.

1293
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 1: First up, Tanya Fox, you got Alex Alex today. Thank you.

1294
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:03,719
Speaker 1: I'm Tanya Fox in Montreal, Canada. With taking venture capital,

1295
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: how does that affect the weight of other people's voting

1296
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:12,560
Speaker 1: and how is that distributed in terms of the profitability

1297
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 1: of the other two kens. So we raised venture capital

1298
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:18,719
Speaker 1: back in November. It was about ten percent of the supply.

1299
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 1: That was a proposal actually, so the community agreed to

1300
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 1: accept venture funding. So we put together a proposal that

1301
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: outlined all of the terms, and then the community actually

1302
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 1: had like counter points, which was really interesting, and then

1303
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: we actually negotiated and I was almost like a proxy

1304
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 1: with the investors, and one of those counterpoints is actually

1305
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: decreasing their voting power. So they wanted obviously the venture

1306
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,599
Speaker 1: conpitalists wanted more ownership in the network, but the community said,

1307
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: we don't actually want you to have the equivalent amount

1308
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 1: of ownership to voting power, and so we actually agreed

1309
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: on a fifty percent decrease in their actual voting stake.

1310
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 1: So while they own ten percent of the network, their

1311
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: voting powers equivalently like five percent of the network. So

1312
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 1: that was an example of diminishing sort of their governance

1313
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 1: participation in terms of profitability. This is an early stage projects,

1314
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 1: so they're just betting on like, hey, this is the

1315
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: most interesting project we've seen of like Dow token usage,

1316
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: and if this is the next New York's Digital New

1317
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 1: York City. We just want to own a lot of

1318
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 1: real estate. So they bought about ten percent of that

1319
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 1: real estate. That allowed for the capital to go into

1320
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: the treasury to then fund all these various different community

1321
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,680
Speaker 1: projects and endeavors and so I think their perspective of

1322
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 1: profitability is as FBB continues to expand, more people join,

1323
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 1: more people participate, more goods and services are being created.

1324
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: The Dow holds dozens of various different equities and various

1325
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 1: different companies that have emerged. It's them sort of owning

1326
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 1: a percentage in sort of that conglomerate or that holding

1327
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 1: of all these various different community owned assets. Thank you

1328
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: for that, Alex. We're moving on to ned hit. Your

1329
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:44,440
Speaker 1: question did all right? I'm ned calling him from outside Madison, Wisconsin,

1330
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 1: ho Chup Nation territory. So I'd like to hear more

1331
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: about the mechanisms you have for ensuring I mean, kind

1332
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 1: of like what you were seeing with the venture capital thing,

1333
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: but more also to ensure that tokens do not equal

1334
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:02,560
Speaker 1: gatekeeping into terms of who gets the sort of demographics

1335
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: that get to be full participants. You know, that question

1336
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 1: of we give tokens out to people who do earn

1337
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 1: them can very subtly and quickly shift to we give

1338
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 1: tokens out the people we believe deserve them and that

1339
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 1: we believe in becomes a really tricky thing. I'm curious

1340
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 1: to know how that's worked so far. I mean, I've

1341
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:23,759
Speaker 1: got kind of maybe like a hot take in general

1342
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: that I you know, sort of in praise of exclusivity,

1343
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: and then I think like exclusivity actually plays a really

1344
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:31,640
Speaker 1: important role in society. I don't believe in like explicitly.

1345
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,960
Speaker 1: I just don't think all gatekeeping is necessarily bad. I

1346
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 1: think if everything were inclusive, I don't think there will

1347
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 1: be anything sort of at all. I obviously believe in

1348
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,640
Speaker 1: inclusivity inside of a community, but I believe if you

1349
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:45,799
Speaker 1: can create an organization that has vision, values and mission

1350
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 1: and principles, it should turn certain people on and turn

1351
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 1: certain people off. That's how you actually create a culture.

1352
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,520
Speaker 1: And so I think in terms of the token equaling gatekeeping,

1353
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 1: we've done as best as we cant of making that

1354
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: accessible to the people that we want to attract, which

1355
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:03,200
Speaker 1: the people want to attract our creatives, artists, technologists. Because

1356
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: FTVB isn't for everybody, just like New York City isn't

1357
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: for everybody, or you know, various different towns that you

1358
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 1: choose to live in, and so our perspective has been, like,

1359
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: you know, ensure that price has various different entry points,

1360
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 1: ensure that there's always grant programs and scholarship programs where

1361
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 1: folks who are qualified and are a good fit but

1362
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 1: don't have the financial means can join and ensure you

1363
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 1: have transparency and where those token they're going to in

1364
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 1: terms of who's earned them and who hasn't, and sort

1365
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 1: of carry oneself with humility and knowing that like will

1366
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 1: continue to evolve it based on real time feedback of

1367
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: how things are going. So that's sort of been our

1368
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 1: approach to date. Like I said, we've modeled a lot

1369
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: of it after like club culture, and club culture definitely

1370
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 1: isn't perfect, but that's sort of been was a studio

1371
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 1: fifty four quota dictatorship at the door, democracy on the

1372
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 1: dance floor is the other thing that you know, we've

1373
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 1: always kind of resonated where thanks for that, Alex, I

1374
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 1: mean in praise of exclusivity. Definitely a hot take. I

1375
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 1: don't think you're advocating for illegal discrimination, of course, but

1376
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: what resonates with me is the idea that you yata

1377
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 1: culture by having a vision, values, mission, and principles real quick.

1378
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what we're trying to do here with

1379
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 1: how to citizen to create a culture of democracy. Now

1380
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 1: ned in terms of your question about who gets rewarded

1381
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: for contributions and the fairness of that. It sounds like

1382
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:18,600
Speaker 1: the ability to abuse that system is going to be

1383
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 1: limited by how transparent the system is. So thanks for

1384
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:26,600
Speaker 1: your question. Ned. Okay, now we have Sarah Hughes. Hello,

1385
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 1: Sarah Hughes here in Rochester, New York, part of the

1386
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 1: unseated Adona shown a territory. I am curious just because

1387
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of information coming out recently about

1388
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 1: the environmental impacts of data mining, of crypto mining, of

1389
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 1: data farms, just all of the infrastructure required to maintain

1390
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: blockchain and all of these other technologies online. And I'm

1391
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:52,599
Speaker 1: kind of an oldie. I'm trying to keep up with

1392
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 1: the tech. But I would like to ask you if

1393
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 1: you are others in the DOW world that you are

1394
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 1: aware of are taking that in to account in terms

1395
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 1: of scaling and also what the potential environmental impacts are

1396
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: of this kind of community. Yeah, so I can't speak

1397
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 1: to like bitcoin, there's tons of environmental issues with Bitcoin

1398
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:16,760
Speaker 1: or the dozens of other chains, but in terms of Ethereum,

1399
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:18,960
Speaker 1: the main currency that ours is built on top of,

1400
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 1: has made it a top priority to address the environmental issues,

1401
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 1: and the Ethereum community actually put up it's called the

1402
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 1: merge and it was actually the biggest system upgrade that

1403
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 1: was run by decentralized group of developers that is now

1404
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:36,880
Speaker 1: reduced by like ninety four percent the environmental efficiency of Ethereum,

1405
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:40,719
Speaker 1: which is really exciting for that community. Yeah, Ethereum's system upgrade,

1406
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 1: it's changed the way they validate transactions in the merch.

1407
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 1: Back in September twenty twenty two, actually reports said that

1408
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:51,439
Speaker 1: the switch reduced its energy usage by over ninety nine

1409
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 1: which is amazing. So thank you for the questions. Sarah,

1410
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 1: all right, We've got one last question, and I'm going

1411
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:00,040
Speaker 1: to ask on behalf of this person who's in a

1412
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 1: very loudspace. Janine didn't a vice repeat contributor here, University

1413
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 1: of Delaware professor, and it was circling back to the

1414
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 1: questions about inclusivity. Janine wrote specifically, what does the mayor

1415
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 1: think about issues of inclusion and diversity? What are the

1416
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 1: demographics do you worry about that? Why or why not?

1417
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 1: I just want to tag on. I know the way

1418
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,599
Speaker 1: FWB grew initially was through networks, right, friends of friends,

1419
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 1: it was friends with benefits and those can be exclusive

1420
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: in a way that is biased against people who've been

1421
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,320
Speaker 1: excluded already, Like if you're not in the network, you

1422
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:37,600
Speaker 1: can never be in the network because no one in

1423
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 1: the networks knows you, and vice versa. And so I'm

1424
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:43,639
Speaker 1: very curious in terms of that access point, how you're

1425
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 1: trying to get beyond the inherent bias of that kind

1426
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: of seed community. In addition to just tacking onto a

1427
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 1: Janine's question about demographics overall and your own thoughts on

1428
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,599
Speaker 1: the diversity level and inclusion and diversity from a conceptual level,

1429
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 1: we care deeply about inclusion and diversity. It's one of

1430
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,800
Speaker 1: our core values. I agree that network growth tends to

1431
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 1: be relatively homogeneous. However, we started in an artistic community,

1432
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 1: which tends to be much more heterogeneous. Trevor's a black founder.

1433
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,599
Speaker 1: I'm an Asian American co founder. Like our team from

1434
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:21,640
Speaker 1: the outset was very focused on creating a network that

1435
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 1: started with diversity built into the fundamental core of it. Unfortunately,

1436
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 1: crypto and technology skew heavily mail. So I would say

1437
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 1: the crypto industry at large, I would say, is like

1438
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 1: eighty percent mail FWB sits probably close to like sixty

1439
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:40,439
Speaker 1: forty seventy thirty, and we're constantly putting out initiatives to

1440
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:45,400
Speaker 1: attract and create safety and onboarding for more diverse backgrounds

1441
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:47,840
Speaker 1: that aren't our traditional sort of main mix. But I

1442
01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:50,360
Speaker 1: would say, like just at its core, we just started

1443
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 1: from a really diverse community, just from the onset. So

1444
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: many people who join FWB it was their first ever

1445
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency asset. In terms of diversity inclusion, you know, you

1446
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:02,679
Speaker 1: can make a ton of arguments. Diversity spans obviously beyond

1447
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: just race, from gender, to age, to socioeconomic background. We

1448
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 1: probably haven't been great at age. We're all relatively young,

1449
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 1: and we're learning really quickly, and we mostly skewed towards

1450
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:16,799
Speaker 1: late twenties, early thirties, mid thirties. Geographic regions pretty global,

1451
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: huge on sen in Asia and Europe. But obviously being

1452
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: a LA New York scene in community, fifty percent of

1453
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: our network, forty percent of our network are in those

1454
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 1: key cities. We believe deeply in diversity. We're constantly improving it.

1455
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: But I would say it's about sort of putting in

1456
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: those mechanisms in place and making sure that your core

1457
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:36,040
Speaker 1: leadership team is diverse, which I'm really proud that ours is.

1458
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:39,639
Speaker 1: Thank you, mister Mayor, Thank you Janine, thank you Sarah,

1459
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: thank you Med and thank you Tanya for your contributions.

1460
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:45,840
Speaker 1: I don't have any tokens for you, but I got

1461
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 1: a lot of love for you. Alex. Thanks for taking

1462
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:50,160
Speaker 1: the time with us. It was really really what I

1463
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 1: was hoping for. Appreciate you, bro. Thanks everybody. As promised,

1464
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 1: I didn't pitch you on any crypto tokens in this episode,

1465
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:06,640
Speaker 1: and honestly, I really appreciate what Alex shared about the

1466
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: possibilities in this space. But I want to be clear,

1467
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:15,120
Speaker 1: I'm not selling you anything. This is not a call

1468
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:18,760
Speaker 1: to DOW or to blockchain or to crypto. This is

1469
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 1: a call to innovate and update our practice of citizening.

1470
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:27,360
Speaker 1: In the case of Alex and participation dows like friends

1471
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: with Benefits, The questions they're asking apply well beyond blockchain

1472
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 1: based communities. They're the same questions we should be asking,

1473
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about online communities or those offline. Are

1474
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:46,480
Speaker 1: we valuing people's contributions, are we fostering a collective economy?

1475
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 1: And are we making decisions about the spaces we care about.

1476
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 1: We spend so much of our lives existing through online platforms,

1477
01:19:57,800 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 1: and just like we care about how we show up

1478
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 1: in physical communities and the systems that run them, our

1479
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 1: digital common spaces demand our citizen in two and now

1480
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: it's time for some actions. Starting with an internal reflection,

1481
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: Take a moment and think about your relationship to the

1482
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:24,679
Speaker 1: digital spaces you spend time in. This could be social media,

1483
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 1: gaming or a group chat. Where do you feel like

1484
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: an active participant, where you set the terms and the

1485
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:35,640
Speaker 1: tone of the environment. Where do you feel passive like

1486
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:39,520
Speaker 1: someone else is in charge? How might you change that relationship?

1487
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:44,480
Speaker 1: Our next action is in the category of becoming more informed.

1488
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:48,519
Speaker 1: We can create a healthier culture of democracy through Web

1489
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 1: three beyond starting and joining doubt. If you're new to

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01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 1: this world, the New York Times has a great primer

1491
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,519
Speaker 1: on what Web three even is, and we've linked to

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01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 1: it in the show notes. You read that take a

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01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 1: deep dive into the history of squads, a form of

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01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: social and economic organizing that shifting power and social dynamics

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01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:13,680
Speaker 1: away from an individualistic society. And if our conversation with

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01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:17,000
Speaker 1: Alex made you curious, check out our season three conversation

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01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:20,400
Speaker 1: with Eli Pariser from New Public. We go deep on

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01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 1: how to better design digital public spaces, and, last, but

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01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 1: not least, here's what I want us to try. In

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01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 1: terms of public participation. You're likely part of a decision

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01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 1: making group, a tenants or homeowners association, a parents group,

1502
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:39,919
Speaker 1: a committee at work. I'm so sorry, I'm a committee

1503
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 1: at work. By the way. Now, the next time you're

1504
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:44,760
Speaker 1: at one of your meetings, take note of how the

1505
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:49,720
Speaker 1: group makes decisions, who speaks, who's silent, what areas are

1506
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 1: open to input, and what's considered off the table? Is

1507
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 1: there even an agenda? See if you can identify the

1508
01:21:56,680 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: kind of culture the group has chaotic, deferential, something else.

1509
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 1: Can you find any opportunities for the group to make

1510
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:10,200
Speaker 1: that culture more small d democratic by rotating speaking or

1511
01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 1: leadership roles, or even just openly acknowledging how decisions are

1512
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 1: made and how that might shift. We don't always need

1513
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 1: to find or start new groups and spaces to practice

1514
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:27,000
Speaker 1: this democracy thing, so let's start where we are. If

1515
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:30,040
Speaker 1: you take any of these actions, please brag about it

1516
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:34,120
Speaker 1: online and use the hashtag how to citizen. Also tag

1517
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:37,760
Speaker 1: our Instagram how to citizen. I am always online and

1518
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:40,759
Speaker 1: I really do see your messages, so send them finally.

1519
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 1: See this episode show notes for more on these actions

1520
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:47,040
Speaker 1: and a link to our bookshop dot org account where

1521
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 1: you can find all the books Alex mentioned and any

1522
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:53,000
Speaker 1: others you've heard about while listening to the show. How

1523
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 1: to Citizen with baritun Day as a production of iHeartRadio

1524
01:22:56,200 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 1: Podcasts and Row Home Productions. Our executive producers are me

1525
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:05,040
Speaker 1: barrettun Day, Thurston and Elizabeth Stewart. Our lead producer is

1526
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 1: Ali Graham. Our associate producer is Donia abdel Hamid. Alex

1527
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: Lewis is our managing producer, and John Myers is our

1528
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 1: executive editor. Our mix engineer is Justin Berger. Original music

1529
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 1: by Andrew Eapen with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions,

1530
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,560
Speaker 1: and our audience engagement fellows are Jasmine Lewis and Gabbie Rodriguez.

1531
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:29,559
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Joel Smith from iHeartRadio and Lay Labina.

1532
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:42,160
Speaker 1: Next time on How the Citizen, Alex believes that a

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01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 1: community to be whole must also be an economy, but

1534
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 1: he doesn't mean they need to increase wealth, inequality or

1535
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 1: drive profits at the expense of our humanity. A community

1536
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 1: economy is just a system that acknowledges the exchange of

1537
01:23:56,600 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 1: value and it can work for all of us. No

1538
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,280
Speaker 1: one believes that more than economist Kate Rayworth. What do

1539
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 1: you think is the shape of economic progress? Because if

1540
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 1: you listen to an economist, if you listen to a politician,

1541
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 1: the shape apparently is growth, endlessly, right, always, always more.

1542
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,320
Speaker 1: Because no amotter how rich nation already is. I'm in

1543
01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 1: the UK or in the US. We live in two

1544
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:22,160
Speaker 1: of the richest countries in the history of humanity, and

1545
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:25,760
Speaker 1: yet our economists are politicians think that the solution to

1546
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,400
Speaker 1: all of our problems lie in yet more growth, endlessly.

1547
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:31,160
Speaker 1: There's no end in sight. Now, there's something utterly absurd

1548
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:33,240
Speaker 1: about that, and I think we really need to take

1549
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 1: seriously what is the shape of progress? Kate Rayworth, author

1550
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,679
Speaker 1: of Donut Economics, Seven Ways to Think like a twenty

1551
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 1: first century economist, shares how we can create an economy

1552
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:47,120
Speaker 1: that works for all of us, including our planet. Yay Earth,

1553
01:24:55,280 --> 01:24:56,600
Speaker 1: grow home productions,