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Speaker 1: for protecting our children. Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on

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Speaker 1: Serious x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. You know

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Speaker 1: the films Shakespeare and Love, Good Will, Hunting, Silver Linings, Playbo.

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Speaker 1: The Man behind Them legendary Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein. Eight women,

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Speaker 1: including actress Ashley Judd, paid forward to accuse Weinstein of

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Speaker 1: sexual misconduct. The Times uncovered sexual harassment allegations that span

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Speaker 1: almost three decades. Very comfortable coming now and one minute

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Speaker 1: if you want to leave when the guy comes in

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Speaker 1: my mind, I'm sorry, Just come on. I'm used today.

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Speaker 1: Are you used to that? He just is very dominant, persuasive,

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Speaker 1: does not back down if you say no, and he's

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Speaker 1: like touching me what with me? And he's it just

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Speaker 1: relax and I'm telling him to stop, and he would

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Speaker 1: raise his voice, but at the same time he kept

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Speaker 1: reassuring me that everything's going to be okay. It hit

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Speaker 1: like a bomb. You know, it's funny. I prosecuted funny odd,

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Speaker 1: by the way, not funny, ha ha funny. I prosecuted rape, sodomy's,

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Speaker 1: agassaults with intent to rape, all sorts of sex assaults

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Speaker 1: for years and years and years and years, representing women

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Speaker 1: at the Battered Women's Center in court. It just goes

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Speaker 1: on and on and on, the claims against women and children,

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Speaker 1: the most vulnerable in our society. But it took Harvey

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Speaker 1: Weinstein to bring it to the forefront for everyone to

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Speaker 1: actually talk about sex assault. Nobody wants to hear the

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Speaker 1: word rape, and I don't blame them, but now because

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Speaker 1: of Harvey Weinstein. It's part of everyone's everyday vernacular. I Meancy, Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: and with me now. The man who was taking on

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Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein representing two of the women that claim he

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Speaker 1: assaulted them, Jeff Herman is with me, plaintiff's lawyer in

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Speaker 1: the Harvey Weinstein and Brian Singer sex assault lawsuits. That

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Speaker 1: takes a lot of guts. Let me tell you something,

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Speaker 1: It's hard to go against somebody rich and powerful and famous.

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Speaker 1: Believe you me, I've done it and I still suffer

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Speaker 1: the repercussions from it to this very day. First to

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Speaker 1: alexis to rest Chuck before we hear Jeff Herman's take

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Speaker 1: on this. Alexis tress Chuck. Radar Online dot Com investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter Alexis. How many women are now claiming Weinstein either

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Speaker 1: harass them, came onto them, uh touch them, or outright

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Speaker 1: raped them. This is a sickening number, Nancy. It is

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Speaker 1: almost onely. The last time I asked you that you're

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Speaker 1: around authority, I think one hundred women and you know

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Speaker 1: the other day, um it was. Her name is on

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Speaker 1: the tip of my tongue. Alexis. She said she was

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Speaker 1: responding to something Meryl Streep had said about Harvey Weinstein's

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Speaker 1: actions being disrespectful, and she said, disrespectful, it's rape. It's rape.

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Speaker 1: That's a crime. The other day I was on Doctor Oz,

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Speaker 1: who I love, by the way, on one of his

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Speaker 1: crime shows, and um, he had on Alexis Torres chuck

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Speaker 1: uh spinner. In other words, a PR guru who is

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Speaker 1: describing how he helps men like Weinstein come up with

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Speaker 1: a press statement and map out their behavior in the

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Speaker 1: press after they're accused of hin his crime. Halfway through it,

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't contain myself. Every woman in the audience

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Speaker 1: was looking at me, can't you say something? And I said,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, Am I the crazy one here? Because

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Speaker 1: why are we talking about what these guys are going

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Speaker 1: to say when we should be talking about the women

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Speaker 1: who are rape victims? Who cares what they're gonna say

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Speaker 1: at the press. Alexa's how did it get to be

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Speaker 1: one hundred? Help me? I think the people are so

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Speaker 1: have been so snowed by these men for so many years,

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Speaker 1: and as a reporter I have to include the statements

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Speaker 1: from the people that are accused that it's what we

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Speaker 1: have to do in our job, and so the fact

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Speaker 1: that you fought back against that man is really interesting.

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Speaker 1: It was Rose McGowan who has been calling out Harvey

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Speaker 1: Weinstein people. Rose McGowen, Ye, she she is not a

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Speaker 1: lone voice in the wilderness, although she may have been

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Speaker 1: one of the first. Before I go to Dr Bethany Marshall,

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Speaker 1: l a psycho analysts, I want to go to Jeff Herman,

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Speaker 1: the man who is taking on Harvey Weinstein and in

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Speaker 1: the Brian Singer sex assault case as well. Jeff Herman,

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Speaker 1: I want to first talk about the Harvey Weinstein case. Jeff,

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Speaker 1: you know you're jumping out of the frying pan and

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Speaker 1: into the fire right because you know as much as

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Speaker 1: we all suspect he did this. I mean, could one

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Speaker 1: hundred women be wrong? And if one of them, one

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Speaker 1: of them is telling the truth about rape. You know,

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Speaker 1: in some jurisdictions you can still go to jail for

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Speaker 1: life for rape. Jeff, you know that you're a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: So long story short, it doesn't matter if he's guilty

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Speaker 1: to some people. He's rich and he's powerful. Okay, tell

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Speaker 1: me the whole thing, Jeffreman. Start at the beginning, how

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Speaker 1: did you first decide you would take on Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 1: and civil courts? It's apparently police are doing nothing right.

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Speaker 1: So so the first case that I took on was

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Speaker 1: was for Dominique Hewitt, which is the young aspiring actress

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Speaker 1: who when when she tells her story, UM, it's it's

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Speaker 1: very interesting because she's one of the victims who, like

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Speaker 1: many of these, are what we call complying victims. They're

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Speaker 1: they're a gault women who end up being lord into

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Speaker 1: his hotel room. What she alleges is that she's thinking

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Speaker 1: it's a business meeting, UM, and then he comes out

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Speaker 1: in the bathroom naked underneath UM and starts to touch

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Speaker 1: her and persist until the point where she relents. Now

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Speaker 1: that in that case, okay, wait a minute, just give

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Speaker 1: the women on the panel, that would be Alexis Bethany

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Speaker 1: and myself just a moment ago oh oh, just imagining

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Speaker 1: him coming out of a bathroom in a bathrobe with

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Speaker 1: nothing underneath and pause, Jeff, Dr Bethany. Um. I have

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Speaker 1: been in so many hotel rooms and strip clubs and

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Speaker 1: crack houses and um brothels, which is a nice way

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Speaker 1: to put it, and housing projects and flop houses and

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Speaker 1: burned out houses. So many times um investigating cases. I

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Speaker 1: remember from the longest time, I'd make my investigator go

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Speaker 1: into the strip club and bring the person out, because

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Speaker 1: I would not have it, said be Nancy Grist wasn't

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Speaker 1: a strip club, Okay, so they'd have to come out

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Speaker 1: in the parking lot talk to me. He'd go in

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Speaker 1: and get him with his badge. Okay. So I did

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Speaker 1: not want to be in any way in a strip

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Speaker 1: crack house, fine strip club. Okay. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: what was going on in my head, but you know,

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Speaker 1: to say, Jeff Herman just said complying victims. Okay, I'll

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Speaker 1: take it up with Jeff in a moment. But I

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Speaker 1: don't like complying. I don't like because why shouldn't a

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Speaker 1: woman go anywhere? Why why do you have to be

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Speaker 1: feel afraid to go in a room with a man,

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Speaker 1: or getting a van, or go on a date, or

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Speaker 1: go jogging. I mean, we're basically screwed no matter what

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Speaker 1: we do. Okay, that's the lay of the land right here.

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Speaker 1: And and I don't think I'm complying with anything by

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Speaker 1: living my life. Well, the very language itself compliant victim

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Speaker 1: gets to the heart of why women more women don't

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Speaker 1: come forward, or sexual sex assault victims in general. I

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Speaker 1: will never forget the first time I ever studied sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: many years ago, my professor said to me, um, I

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Speaker 1: want to tell you students something that's gonna sound wrong

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Speaker 1: and sound unpopular. But until you understand this, you will

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Speaker 1: never understand the plight of the victim. He said. Every

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Speaker 1: victim wants something. A child wants to be loved, all right,

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Speaker 1: in this case, maybe these women wanted a role. But

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Speaker 1: just because the victim wants something doesn't mean that they

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Speaker 1: were not victimized. And sometimes the victim even gets gratification.

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Speaker 1: A child can be made to be aroused in the

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Speaker 1: service of trying to get the love of the parent.

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Speaker 1: Um Uh. An actress can be seduced into thinking that

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Speaker 1: if she complies, she'll get the role. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that the assault is not an assault. Because the

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Speaker 1: victim wants something, that is what creates the guilt. Guilt

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Speaker 1: then creates shame. Shame makes them repress the entire incident

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Speaker 1: and discourages them from going forward. That's why compliant victim

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Speaker 1: is it's just not a good phrase to use. Herman,

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Speaker 1: Now you started all this, he's only managed to get

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Speaker 1: one sentence out. But you're on a panel of women. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you thought was going to happen here.

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Speaker 1: But back to you, Jeff Herman. You're the guy who's

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Speaker 1: representing these women and taking on Rvy Weinstein. But Alexis

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Speaker 1: and Bethany and I will totally get on your case. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So can you not say compliant base if you gotta

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Speaker 1: come you're well, you're a great lawyer to come up

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Speaker 1: with a different word. They're hoodwinked victim. Actually, the reason

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Speaker 1: I use the word complaint because it explains why victims

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Speaker 1: why it's so difficult to come forward, because there's a

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Speaker 1: self plaint, the self blame. They think they've done something

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Speaker 1: wrong and it doesn't. I'm not saying a complying victim

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Speaker 1: means they're not victimized. What I'm saying is it's a

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Speaker 1: term that explains the complexity of what goes on in

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Speaker 1: the victim's mind and how the perpetrator is able to

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Speaker 1: get away. You gotta think of a better word. Alexis

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Speaker 1: and Bethany think on that for a moment. I want

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Speaker 1: to get back to Jeff Herman. One of the women

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Speaker 1: he is representing and their cases against Harvey Weinstein. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want to hear a word about Uh, they

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Speaker 1: want money? What choice do they have since the police

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Speaker 1: are not filing criminal complaints. You know, if they're lying,

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Speaker 1: it will come out on cross examination. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that they are, but I want to I want to

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Speaker 1: go to the first one that Jeff Herman has described

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Speaker 1: as his reputees representing its Dominique Hewitt. Jeff Herman, tell

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Speaker 1: me how you met her, how you analyzed her demeanor,

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Speaker 1: and what you've learned about her case before we moved

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Speaker 1: to the next list. Victim Dominique reached out to me

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Speaker 1: Um and wanted to tell her story. It wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: what she could do, whether there was any action she

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Speaker 1: could take, and she in our in our first conversations,

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Speaker 1: talked about will She felt that maybe, you know, she

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Speaker 1: could have run out of the room, maybe she did

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Speaker 1: something wrong. And then we talked about that, and Um

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Speaker 1: she began to understand sort of the pressure she was

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Speaker 1: in and how when she was in that room her

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Speaker 1: mind sort of frozen and she went into what some

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Speaker 1: people call this tonic immobility, which is like what did

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Speaker 1: you say the what tonic immobile? Tonic immobility? I've never

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Speaker 1: heard that. What is that? It's it's like the free state,

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Speaker 1: when when a person's in their stress response, they freeze,

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Speaker 1: and as much as they may want to scream and

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Speaker 1: run out of the room, they can't. They feel paralyzed. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that's very confusing to a victim. I get a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases for women who are assaulted in getting

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Speaker 1: a massage and afterwards they questioned themselves, well, why didn't

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Speaker 1: I run? Why didn't I scream? And the answer is

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Speaker 1: they couldn't. Their their minds would not let them because

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Speaker 1: they're sort of playing dead as a defense mechanisms. A moment,

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Speaker 1: I want to go through, uh, this particular victim's claim

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Speaker 1: or should I say alleged victim Alexis torres Chuck, give

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Speaker 1: me in a nutshell what happened with Jeff Herman's client,

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Speaker 1: Dominique Hewitt. She, like many other women in Hollywood, agreed

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Speaker 1: to take a meeting with Harvey Weinstein at the Peninsula Hotel.

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Speaker 1: This is back in and she went to the meeting,

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Speaker 1: which I know it seems weird to people that have

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Speaker 1: all of their business meetings, you know, at work in

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Speaker 1: a conference room. But this is why, the way that

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Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein has been conducting his meetings for thirty years,

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Speaker 1: that that's not uncommon. When um, I'm in New York

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Speaker 1: and we're not going to an office. I meet somebody

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Speaker 1: for coffee. Okay, I meet somebody for lunch. And it's

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Speaker 1: been many time. I meet Alexis, my EP on hill

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Speaker 1: In and I would just a during during Top Mom, okay,

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Speaker 1: during Top Mom, I was so tired. I was up

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Speaker 1: every morning rout four o'clock and would work untill about

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Speaker 1: eleven o'clock at night. And my EP, executive producer, Dane,

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Speaker 1: who had been with me since Larry King, he had

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Speaker 1: gotten all the staff a hotel right beside the courthouse.

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Speaker 1: And I said, Dane, I'm gonna pass out. I gotta

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Speaker 1: go laid down, just for thirty minutes. So so I

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Speaker 1: go to Dan's room. I don't have a room there

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Speaker 1: because I'm with my children, you know, thirty minutes away.

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Speaker 1: So I go in his room and he orders, of course,

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Speaker 1: as was his custom, like all kinds of stuff on

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Speaker 1: room service for him to eat, okay, and I threw

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Speaker 1: myself off down on the bed. He put on a

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Speaker 1: sweatsuit and was on the sofa eating, and I was

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Speaker 1: passed out, sleeping for thirty minutes on the bed before

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Speaker 1: I went back to the courthouse. Well, lo and behold, Alexis.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, I I said, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: check my BlackBerry. Was the BlackBerry? Then? And I looked

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Speaker 1: and I one minute before we think there's a verdict.

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Speaker 1: I jumped up. I could hardly even think because I

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Speaker 1: had dozed off for like ten minutes. I ran out

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Speaker 1: the door. I didn't even look in the mirror, and

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Speaker 1: I yelled back, Dane, put your pants on. I didn't

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Speaker 1: get to the courthouse, and I ran down the hall

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Speaker 1: to the elevator, and all these people were just looking

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Speaker 1: at me, okay, and I just got on and just

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Speaker 1: walked out. I mean, I don't know what they thought,

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Speaker 1: but you know, the thought of it. To some people,

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Speaker 1: it might sound crazy, but it's not crazy. It's not.

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Speaker 1: That's the way it is when you're both away from

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Speaker 1: your office or like this woman didn't have an office,

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Speaker 1: and wine steins out of town and he's meeting her.

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Speaker 1: So it's not unusual, Alexis, I'm sorry, go ahead. So

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Speaker 1: she shows up to his hotel room, and he's wearing

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Speaker 1: a robe and there's nothing underneath it, which I think

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Speaker 1: Dean had clothes on when y'all had when you were

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Speaker 1: in his hotel room. Dane always had clothes on. I

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Speaker 1: have never seen go ahead, and I'm sure his wife

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Speaker 1: and my husband will be very happy to hear that going.

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Speaker 1: So he he grabs her and he starts molesting her.

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Speaker 1: And this this is exactly what all of the other

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Speaker 1: victims have said. They said that they show up, he's

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Speaker 1: in a robe. You know, he's this huge guy, and

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Speaker 1: so he's physically not only is he physically intimidating, he's

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Speaker 1: the most powerful man in Hollywood. He has made careers

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Speaker 1: of so many people, so everybody wants to work and

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Speaker 1: destroy careers. If you believe Ashley Judd, who I happen

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Speaker 1: to love, the entire Judd family, including her um. So

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Speaker 1: when you say he molested her, what okay, alexis sorry,

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Speaker 1: but this is Nancy Grace crime stories. You don't get

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Speaker 1: off with sugarcoating it. What does she say happen? She

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Speaker 1: said he grabbed her under his clothes, he grabbed her breasts,

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Speaker 1: and he started fondling her, and she was terrified. Well

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Speaker 1: there you go, Jeff Herman, Uh, the lawyer who is

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Speaker 1: taking on Harvey Weinstein in two of these cases. Does

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Speaker 1: that jibe with what she's told to you? Well? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean what what what? He starts with the massage

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Speaker 1: and says she allegescies. She says, giving massage, come on,

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Speaker 1: let's just let's will help us calm down and relax.

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Speaker 1: And she resisted first and helped me calm down right,

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Speaker 1: and he persists, and eventually she finds herself giving him

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Speaker 1: a massage and then he kind of rolls over and

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Speaker 1: he starts to masturbate, and he stands up and sort

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Speaker 1: of masturbates in front of her. And then then the

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Speaker 1: meeting in Jeff Herman, aren't you and Alexis tresh shut

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Speaker 1: leaving something out, something called sodomy? Alexis, how did you

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Speaker 1: leave that little fact? I did? I left out the

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Speaker 1: fact he performed oral sex on her because she felt

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Speaker 1: like she had to, Okay, Alexis, Jeff and Dr Bethany,

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Speaker 1: let me explain aim. When it's not consentual, it's not

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Speaker 1: oral sex, it's a krown. And this is what Dominique

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Speaker 1: Hewitt just said. Listen to this alleged victim of Harvey Weinstein.

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Speaker 1: In her own words, take us to the moment that

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Speaker 1: you knew you were in trouble with him. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: I had met him in New York previously, um, and

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Speaker 1: we had been in touch about an audition for a

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Speaker 1: Quentin Tarantino film and I had submitted it to l

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Speaker 1: A and then I ran back into him later. And

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Speaker 1: that's when I met with him at the Peninsula when

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Speaker 1: I had moved to the West Coast, so I really

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Speaker 1: didn't know anything about the Peninsula, like if he was

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Speaker 1: staying there. I thought we were meeting at the bar,

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Speaker 1: which we did, and then he told me, Okay, we're

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Speaker 1: going to my room now, after a few minutes of

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Speaker 1: conversation about movie roles. So then we go up to

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Speaker 1: the suite and I realized he kind of like has

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Speaker 1: a place there, and he offers me champagne. And it

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Speaker 1: was very similar to her story that he just is

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Speaker 1: very dominant, persuasive, does not back down if you say no,

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Speaker 1: and kind of just forced me into doing something I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to do. I don't want to make you

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Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable, but you know, some some people here forced

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Speaker 1: oral sex and they think how right, like, how it

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Speaker 1: did he hold you down? Could you just help us

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Speaker 1: understand that. I feel like it was a coercive thing. Um,

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Speaker 1: just that he wouldn't let it up, that he that

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Speaker 1: it was just going to happen no matter how hard

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Speaker 1: I refused, And did you said? No? How did it end?

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Speaker 1: Did you? How did you leave the hotel room? Um?

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Speaker 1: It just that I left after pretty much he was

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Speaker 1: done with whatever he intended to do. So I just

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Speaker 1: left after. I don't know how to put it, Jeff.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask Jeff, because he's there with you, your lawyer. Um,

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Speaker 1: you filed, you filed the first lawsuit against them, and

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Speaker 1: it's not Harvey and Togither, it's the Weinstein Company. And

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Well, first, let me ask ask you, Dominic.

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Speaker 1: Do you did you ever report it to the Weinstein

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Speaker 1: Company or to the board? I did not because I

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Speaker 1: had heard a lot of stories about his behavior in

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Speaker 1: the past, and I just you know, I was an

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Speaker 1: actress looking for a break and he's a gatekeeper, and

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Speaker 1: he I felt that he used his position, you know,

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Speaker 1: to try to make me do something that is not

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Speaker 1: in accord with how I usually behave. That was from

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Speaker 1: NBC's Megan Kelly today, that's where Dominate was speaking. Hold on,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get right back to this, but I've got

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Speaker 1: to thank my partner, and I want to thank my

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Speaker 1: partner who was making today's program possible and allowing us

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Speaker 1: to speak to Jeff Herman, plaintiffs lawyer who was taking

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Speaker 1: on Harvey Weinstein. First of all, I want to thank

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Speaker 1: now back to the man who was taking on Harvey

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Speaker 1: Weinstein in two of the alleged sex assaults by the

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Speaker 1: Hollywood superstar Jeff Herman. Did you doubt her story and

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about alleged victim dominq Hewitt at all. How

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Speaker 1: many times have you met her? Have you looked her

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Speaker 1: in the face and had her tell her story to

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Speaker 1: you so you could gauge her demeanor and veracity or truthfulness. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I met with her and she told her story um

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Speaker 1: to me several times. And then my investigators we go

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Speaker 1: out and we try to verify and confirm every every fact,

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Speaker 1: even the little ones, because we find those are really

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Speaker 1: important to be able to verify. Um and um, you

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Speaker 1: know her her story run true? And UM, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean? What did you verify? What? What hotel was

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Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein at when this alligably happened at the Peninsula hotel?

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Speaker 1: And wasn't that his typical hangout? And she she had

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Speaker 1: um emails that were documenting the setting up of the meeting,

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Speaker 1: And so there were things we were able to confirm

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Speaker 1: on her story which are important. Why didn't she go

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Speaker 1: to police? That's going to be a problem at trial

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Speaker 1: that I'm sure you'll be able to handle well. As

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Speaker 1: she tells it, Um, she felt guilty, and she still

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Speaker 1: she still blamed herself and and said, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: why didn't I leave the room? You know, why did

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Speaker 1: I you know, I'm an adult? Why why did I

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Speaker 1: stay there? Um? You know, one of the things she

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Speaker 1: alleges is that he performed all sex on her, and

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Speaker 1: and so she felt so guilty about that, even though

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Speaker 1: she describes herself freezing, and she said, she said, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, and she said, and how am I? What

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Speaker 1: am I going to do take on this powerful man?

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Speaker 1: There's nothing I could do in her mind, and so

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until other victims came forward, and there's a

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Speaker 1: sort of collective empowerment that she felt the strength that

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Speaker 1: it would be safe for her to come for d

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, I don't want to analyze it to death.

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Speaker 1: You're the high powered, uh superstar psychoanalyst out of l A.

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Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you something, Bethany. I'm not a

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Speaker 1: shrink like you. I don't have my degree in psycho analysis,

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Speaker 1: but I know this. I've never dealt with a single

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Speaker 1: rape victim. When I take that back, I had a

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Speaker 1: couple of rape victims that were at home in their

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Speaker 1: home when they were attacked, and I can think of

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Speaker 1: one of them, one rape victim that was more angry

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Speaker 1: than she was anything else. And um, but most rape

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Speaker 1: victims that I have dealt with, almost all of them,

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Speaker 1: always feel like, why didn't I feel in the mind?

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Speaker 1: Why didn't I run? Why didn't I fight back? Why

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Speaker 1: didn't I fight harder? Why was I there? Why did

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Speaker 1: I have a drink? Why didn't I do something? Why

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Speaker 1: did I I let myself get into that situation? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

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Speaker 1: You know you can why until the cows come home

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Speaker 1: and for you in l A, what that means is

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Speaker 1: uh late in the day, that's when the cows. So

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying is trust me, Bethany, I understand very

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Speaker 1: well why sex assault victims don't come forward. I think

425
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: every woman does. Explain it in your terms. First of all,

426
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: I think the proper use of language, precise language, is

427
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: so important in a case like this, and Nancy, the

428
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: fact that you're using the term rape instead of sexual

429
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: assault is critical. You have, really, you know, so many

430
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: shows I've been on with you. You've changed our national

431
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: dialogue through your language. And I like the fact that

432
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: you're using the word rape today and if if you

433
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: could continue to use it, it it would be great, because

434
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: sexual harassment sounds like the cashier at the grocery store

435
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: asking for your phone number, like an unwanted advance. That

436
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: that's not what this is. This is rape. First of all. Secondly,

437
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: I don't think I would use the word was it tonic, uh,

438
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: freezing or something like that. I would use a different word.

439
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: I would use just maybe fear phrase a fear freeze.

440
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: I would use the word dissociate, which means you just

441
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: good gravy bath, I said, talking regular people talk, which

442
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: means it's a fear phrase. Could think about it, Jeff Herman,

443
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: you might want to use that at trial. Fear phrase,

444
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: not tonic whatever you said. It makes me think of

445
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 1: Mary Poppins when they have to take castor oil. You know,

446
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say tonic whatever that was you said, Jeff,

447
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: go ahead, beth But to dissociate me, to disconnect from yourself.

448
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: And I think the other thing is that there's a

449
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: human drive to please other people, and that is an

450
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: overriding drive that all of us have. Anybody who's out

451
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: of the implications, Bethany, look what he allegedly did, Ashley Judd,

452
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: who I adore, Uh, look at that. How many other

453
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: people have had their careers ruined because they spoke out?

454
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: And believe me, Bethany, I understand not speaking out because

455
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: you feel you have a bigger mission to accomplish. Or

456
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: I'll get it. I totally get it. I mean you're thinking, Okay,

457
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: I'll I'll endure this, I'll get through it. It'll be

458
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: three minutes, five minutes tops, it'll be over, and then

459
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: you know, I can leave this room and I can

460
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: go about my life and I'll still be able to

461
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: get a job when I walk out of this hotel,

462
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: and then it's probably what they were thinking and then

463
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: underestimating the psychological consequences to themselves, you know, saying well,

464
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: I'll get through this, it'll be three minutes, five minutes,

465
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: and then walking out of there and saying that was

466
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: a really catastrophic three minutes or five minutes. I think

467
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: there's an element of shock too. I mean, you go

468
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: go to the hotel room, Um, his robe is open.

469
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: I mean I keep having a visual every time some

470
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: he mentioned that. I want to get that out of

471
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: my mind. But when you look at the Diagnostic and

472
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: Statistical Manual of mental disorders, there are five different perversions.

473
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: There's pedophilia, exhibitionism, voyeurism, frauderism, and sadism. And so this

474
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: was an incredibly perverse you know, opening up his robes

475
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: so the women could see him. He's very much an exhibitionist.

476
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: I also think of power rapists. You know, they are

477
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: very specific hypologies in terms of sexual offending, and the

478
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: power rapist is the one who not only wants to

479
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: have power over the victim, but is sociopathic and attempts

480
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: to have power over people in every aspect. Of his life,

481
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: and Harvey Weinstein definitely falls into that category where he's

482
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: not just an offender in one area, he's an offender

483
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: in multiple areas. So I think I couldn't see a

484
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: lot of people who maybe we're not sexual abuse victims

485
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: UM specifically, but actually harassment victims in the workplace with him,

486
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: you know, with me. Jeff Herman, the lawyer who was

487
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: taking on Harvey Weinstein, I want to ask you, Jeff,

488
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: you claim that you are very interested in taking Weinstein's brother,

489
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: Bob Weinstein's deposition as well as other Weinstein Company employees

490
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: to see who knew what and when? In other words,

491
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: were other people within the Weinstein company complicit? Did they,

492
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: in my world, aid and abet him raping or sodomizing

493
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: unsuspecting women? Explain your legal theory, Jeff Hermer. Yeah. In fact,

494
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: the second case that I filed for Katie and Noble

495
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: actually also sued Bob Weinstein and the Weinstein Company for

496
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: exactly that aiding and abetting UM what I considered to

497
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: be a violation of the federal sex trafficking crimes in

498
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: that they knew, we alleged that Harvey was using his

499
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: position of power for decades to to get women alone,

500
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: sometimes in his hotel room, where he would then coerce

501
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: them and then use physical force to get these women

502
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: to engage in sexual behavior with him. Um, at the

503
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: same time dangling help in their career, which in which

504
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: in essence is sort of providing them with some sort

505
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: of benefit. Um. And because of that, we think that

506
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: they're liable under these these sex trafficking laws. And so

507
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: with Bob there's allegations that he even was paying for

508
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 1: some settlements. And you know, there's been settlements and allegations

509
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: going back for decades, even before there was the Weinstein Company,

510
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: there was Mirramax, and um, we believe that he knew

511
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: it back then. Jeff, who is your other client? So

512
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: the other client is Katie and Noble, who is a

513
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: young British actress who met Harvey Weinstein at the Bath

514
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: Awards in London and Harvey came over to her said

515
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: he loved her look, he was going to help in

516
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: her career, and then immediately put her in touch with

517
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: people in his company that she followed up with them

518
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: and sent him over a film reel and then ran

519
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: into Harvey again at the Kem Film Festival and She

520
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: alleges there that Harvey said, oh, I haven't had a

521
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: chance to see the film reel. Let's go up to

522
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: my room and look at it, which he did. But interestingly,

523
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: when they get up to the room, he calls what

524
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: he claimed he to be one of his producers, and

525
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: he puts the producer on the phone with Katie and

526
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: the producer says to her, listen, Harvey is going to

527
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: take care of you. Just do whatever he wants. And

528
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: she's not really sure what he's talking about, but to

529
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: hang up the phone. They start watching the film reel,

530
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: and then Harvey says to her, listen, I just really

531
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: want you to like me, and he starts to touch her.

532
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: She says no, he she walks away, he grabs her.

533
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: She alleges he drives her into the bathroom, where he

534
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: puts her in front of the mirror, and then from behind,

535
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 1: while he's watching himself do this, fondles her breast and

536
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: then takes out his penis and puts her hand and

537
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: and holds it on her penis and masturbates himself while

538
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: he's watching this in the mirror. I'm just a little confused.

539
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: I feel like Alice in wonderland where everything doesn't fit anymore.

540
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: Why aren't their criminal charges? I want you to listen

541
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: to this. A beautiful young actress, she's just absolutely gorgeous.

542
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: Um katiean Noble. Here she is speaking out saying quote

543
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: what he's done. It just ruins people's lives. Then I

544
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: went to Cannes in May two thousand and fourteen, and

545
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: whilst I was there, Harvey Weinstein approached me in the

546
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: majestics in the lobby. It was quite forceful in the

547
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: sense of telling me to relax, and I think then

548
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: I started to like get a little bit confused. He

549
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: took hold of me and pretty much forced me to

550
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: walk with him to the bil room where he stood

551
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: me in front of the mirror and he stood behind

552
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: me and I was like, what are you doing, and

553
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: like and he's like touching me, robbing me, and he's like,

554
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: just relax and I'm telling him to stop, and he

555
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: would raise his voice, but at the same time he

556
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: kept reassuring me that everything's going to be okay. Katie

557
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: and Noble is a British model and aspiring actress who

558
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: was coming forward now over an alleged assault, and she

559
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: speaks through tears, saying what he's done ruins people's life.

560
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: She's doing not only Weinstein, but his brother Bob Weinstein

561
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: and the Weinstein Company, claiming they violated U sex trafficking

562
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: laws when the high profile Hollywood producer allegedly assaults her

563
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: brutally in two thousand and fourteen. Now this action has

564
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: been filed in the District Court in Manhattan. I'm just

565
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: a little confused about thing, Jeff Herman, with, as Alexis

566
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 1: pointed out, now nearly one hundred women claiming that he

567
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: sexually attacked them, why aren't there criminal charges? Two thousand fourteen. Now,

568
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: her incident happened in France, so I understand why we

569
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: cannot pursue him criminally for that one only civilly under

570
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: you know the age old case international shoe, which everybody

571
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: learns on day one in the civil procedure. So we

572
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: can sue him civilly here in the US, as you

573
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: are doing, because he is sufficiently connected to the US.

574
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: But in all the other cases, Jeff, why aren't there

575
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: criminal charges? Jeff Herman? Well, so interestingly, Nancy, in two

576
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, Congress actually amended this um, this federal

577
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: sex Trafficking Statute and gave the US courts jurisdiction for

578
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: sexual assaults like this that take place in foreign countries.

579
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: And so um, you know, we don't make that decision,

580
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: but Katian hasn't up with the U S authorities. Um.

581
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: And when she was in New York and she has

582
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: told her a story. Now, you're right, you're absolutely right.

583
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: I was thinking about a typical rape case that would

584
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: be held in state court. But you're absolutely right. Congress

585
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: did that. The laws are on the book. So what's

586
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: the hold up. It's within the statute of limitations. Her

587
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 1: allegations are two thousand fourteen, So what's the hold up? Jeff? Well,

588
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,479
Speaker 1: she's made the report and we trust that they're doing

589
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: a proper investigation. And so you know that's once once

590
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: the victim makes the report, you know she's sort of

591
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: out of it, and so we're waiting to see um.

592
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: In the meantime, you know, she's pursuing her her right

593
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: to a civil case. And I'll tell you her story

594
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: about it was really incredible to me because she said

595
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 1: to me she had finally resolved it in her own

596
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: mind and earlier this year that there was nothing she

597
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: could do she just decided that it was time to

598
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: try to put it behind her. She actually was so

599
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: traumatized she attempted suicide um back when this first happened

600
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: and her life flipped upside down and was trying to

601
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: put the pizzas back together. And then she says, you know,

602
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: she starts to hear other victims coming forward, and so

603
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: when she contacted me, she felt it was surreal that

604
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: she might actually have a voice and that there might

605
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: finally be some justice telling her story like she did

606
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: um when we when we did the press conference, she said,

607
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: was freedom in her mind and that for the first

608
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 1: time she felt as though her life actually could move forward.

609
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: And so this this was really, I think, a tremendous,

610
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, milestone in this young woman's life, and I

611
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: was so happy to see that for her. She says

612
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: that Weinstein used Naomi Campbell and of all people, Oprah Winfrey,

613
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: who is like beloved to trick her. Now, don't think

614
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: Naomi Campbell and Oprah Winfrey had anything to do with

615
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: any of this, but what she saw was this alleged

616
00:35:54,280 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: victim Katian saw Weinstein hanging out with Naomi Campbell and

617
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: had Oprah Winfrey near him, and she thought, wow, you

618
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 1: know it must be legit. I mean, of course, somebody

619
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: like Weinstein would never ever attack someone in power that

620
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: could actually retaliate. Oh No, his victims are people that

621
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: he believed nobody would ever listen to. That's the way

622
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: he chose his victims. I want to pause very quickly

623
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: and thank our partner making our program today possible as

624
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: we investigate the allegations against Harvey Weinstein, including the plaintiffs

625
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: lawyer Jeff Herman, who was actually taking Weinstein on in court.

626
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: If you're like everybody else, you probably haven't said no

627
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: very much to sugary sweets during the holiday season. But

628
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: that is exactly why you need a schedule an appointment

629
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: with an awesome dentist. You can find at one eight

630
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: hundred Dentist. Now, this is what I like about them.

631
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: They can deal with your specific needs. Like I've got

632
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: two ten year old children, I need a pediatric dentist.

633
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: My mom lives with us now since my dad passed away,

634
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: I need a special dentist to deal with her dental problems.

635
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: Then there's me, then there's my husband. I mean, the

636
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 1: list goes on. The specialist at one eight hundred dentists.

637
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Speaker 1: code Nancy. Thank you for being our partner today. To

690
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, l A psycho analyst, Dr Bethany jeff

691
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: Herman was telling us about the alleged victim Kadian and

692
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: says that she attempted suicide. I was thinking about that

693
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: when he said that, why is that this not that

694
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: she come to suicide? I would think that it's not

695
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: just the rape itself, but it's the general betrayal. If

696
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: you said you were in Alexis was reporting on, he

697
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: got his assistance to set her up, you know, and

698
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: to set all these multiple victims up. So it's betrayal

699
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: on multiple levels. And then not being able to talk

700
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: to anybody of out it, I think is a very

701
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: profound um negative consequence of all of this not being

702
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: able to go forward. Whenever a rape occurs, it's not

703
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: just the rape itself that causes the trauma. There's cumulative

704
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: trauma that goes on and on and and part of

705
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: the trauma is the narrative that the victim weave in

706
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: her own mind about what happened to her. So this

707
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: may have set her up to feel like a victim

708
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: in multiple areas of her life. To feel it excuse me,

709
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: a loss of volition, a loss of control, a loss

710
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: of self esteem, and you know, to to suicide or

711
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: to make a suicide attempt. There's two types of suicide attempts,

712
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: one which the person really means to kill themselves, the

713
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: other in which just the fantasy of not being on

714
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: this earth anymore is a profound relief. And I think

715
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: sometimes a molestation and abuse victims fall into that second

716
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: category where they think, boy, if I'm not on this

717
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: earth anymore, I'm just not going to have to think

718
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: about all these terrible things that happened to me. Some

719
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: victims that have attempted suicide have told me that they

720
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: just wanted to end everything and it would be better

721
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: to just sleep forever than to continue to go through

722
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: the mental and emotional anguish that they're in after a

723
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: violent crime. You know, I want to talk to you

724
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: also about the arrogance, the feeling Weinstein must have had,

725
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: if these allegations are true, to think that it's okay.

726
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: And just for instance, in Kadian's case, he just seemed

727
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: he forced her to masturbate him, according to her, and

728
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: just stepped over the pool of ejaculating the floor, just

729
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: stepped over it and walked out. M m. And she's

730
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: just standing there. Made the arrogance of that moment, and

731
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: then to go on to the next woman, and the

732
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: next woman and the next woman. I mean, it just

733
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: seems like it never ends, you know, Nancy. Every time

734
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: I go on your show, I reread all of the

735
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: offender typologies just so I really understand it. And one

736
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,879
Speaker 1: of the things that jumps out at me again and again,

737
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: and it reminds me of Harvey Weinstein, is that this

738
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,479
Speaker 1: type of sex offender and rapists. Let's just use the

739
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: accurate language. This type of rapist imagines that the woman

740
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: wants him has a personality disorder, is sociopathic, and it's

741
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: that sociopathy that informs how he carries out the crime.

742
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: In other words, sociopaths are arrogant. They feel that they're

743
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: above the law. They have no conscience about hurting others.

744
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: Their callous, They have callous disregard for the rights and

745
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: safety of others. They imagine that they're wanted, and they

746
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: have a notorious lack of insight into what goes on

747
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: in the minds of others. And Nancy, I actually treat

748
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: a fair amount of um sex addicts in my office,

749
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: people who have sex addiction. And one of the notorious

750
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: features of sex addiction, even if they're not astenders, they're

751
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: sexually addicted, is that they are never able to describe

752
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: what goes on in the mind of the other person,

753
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: whether it's somebody they meet casually in afar or on

754
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: the street or whatever, and they'll say things like, well,

755
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: you know that that person, you know, he was sweating,

756
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: or she was sweating, or she you know, she looked

757
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: kind of nervous. And I'll say, well, what do you

758
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: think what's going on in that person's mind? They are

759
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: never ever able to tell me. The sexualist excitement they

760
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 1: wish to offend, getting off at other people's expense takes

761
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: over every part of their life, and so they have

762
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: no idea of what's going on in the victims. I

763
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: wonder how that I know just just the height of arrogance, Alexis,

764
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't end with these ladies. Now there is a

765
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: brand new case, Alexa Sreschick joining me from writer online

766
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: dot Com that Jeff Herman is involved in. It's the

767
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: Brian Singer lawsuit. What can you tell me about that, Alexis.

768
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 1: A man has accused Brian Singer, the famous famous director

769
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: of X Men, of assaulting him in two thousand three.

770
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: He said he was on a boat with him in Seattle,

771
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: famous director, and Mr Singer offered to give him a

772
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: tour of the yacht, and so of course he went

773
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: with him. They went around, he went in the bedroom

774
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: of the yacht and Mr Singer asked him for sex.

775
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 1: He said, no, absolutely not, And he says that he

776
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: Brian grabbed him and sexually assaulted him and forced himself

777
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: upon him. Jeff, how are you involved in this case

778
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: as well? Right? So, I represent this young man, Caesar

779
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: Sanchez Bousman UM in a civil lawsuit that we filed

780
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: actually in UM the state of Washington against Brian Singer

781
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: for the assault. Now, explain to me the charges that

782
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: you have filed specifically, Well, it's it's essentially a civil

783
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: lawsuit for we alleged the assault and battery UM against

784
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: against Caesar now and this particular case the victims. Caesar

785
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: Sanchez Guzman files this lawsuit and claimed he didn't come

786
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: forward at the age of just seventeen because he did

787
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: not want to be outed as gay and he was

788
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: distraught about other GOT people in his high school bullying

789
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: him and mocking him and um being cruel to him

790
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: because he would have been outed as gay. So is

791
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: that your understanding of it, Jeff Herman why he didn't

792
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: come forward at the time. UM. In fact, he following

793
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: the incident, he confided in her friend UM, a woman,

794
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: and h we be spoken her and she confirms that

795
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: she told him to go to the police, but he

796
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: just he says, he felt that it would just be

797
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: so destructive. He comes from a very religious Pentecostal family, um,

798
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: and there's no way that he felt he could tell

799
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: them that he was gay. They would not understand, and

800
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: so he just had kept us to himself. Singer's lawyer

801
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: claims that Caesar quote did not remember the incident from

802
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: two thousand three until now. Why is Singer's lawyer saying that,

803
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 1: I have no idea where that comes from. He's never

804
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: said that because he didn't come forward until now. I

805
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 1: have no idea what he's trying to say. I don't

806
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: know where that comes from. I saw that. Um. That's

807
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: that's just now with Caesar's allegend, he's never he's never

808
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: maintained that he's always remembered. It. The the issue for

809
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: Caesar's he's really never connected all the things he's going

810
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: through in his life, his damages, until into fairly recently.

811
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: And I guess with all the Weinstein, the flood of

812
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: allegations against Weinstein, that flood is making other people who

813
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: have been victimized come forward and feel that they can

814
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: come forward safely. I mean, you know, we think we're

815
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: so enlightened and advanced, but gay teens, bisexual teens are

816
00:47:55,239 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: still tortured, bullied, mocked, made fun of, and worse and worse,

817
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: and I can understand why he didn't want anyone to know.

818
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: Grown men don't want anyone to know because of they

819
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: the fear they have of the repercussion. They don't want

820
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: their family to know, there their religious cohorts, their church,

821
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: or their synagogue. They don't want anyone to know. Maybe

822
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: they think they'll lose a job because of it. And

823
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: you know what, people that claim that that is a sin,

824
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: you know that is between that person and God. You

825
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: know that. I think everybody better worry about keeping their

826
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: own life in the middle of the road and not

827
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: worry about who else is gonna be in trouble in

828
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: the next life. Okay, let's just try to focus on ourselves.

829
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: There's plenty we can do to make ourselves better people

830
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: than to attack others of some perceived offense. If this

831
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 1: allegation is true, I am just so distraught, alexis Um.

832
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: I think about these Weinstein alleged victims that didn't come

833
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: forward because they thought they'd lose their job or their

834
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: livelihood then never work again. I think about this young guy,

835
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: you know, seventeen at the time, that didn't want his

836
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: family to know he was gay, didn't want his friends

837
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: at school to know it was afraid to live his life. Uh.

838
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: It just it breaks my heart to think what victims

839
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: go through each and every day. It's it's heartbreaking, Alexis Well.

840
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: That's why with Harvey Weinstein, like the floodgates have been opened,

841
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: and so many people that have hidden these stories for

842
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: decades are coming out. They because they finally feel that

843
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: perhaps even if they don't see victory in court, they

844
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: are seen victory in their own personal lives because people

845
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: are saying, we believe you, we support you, and we

846
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: understand that you are a victim. That's what That's what

847
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: so many of these victims have said that they're coming

848
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: forward because I just want people to know that to

849
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 1: happen to them and that that they were not at fault.

850
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: And so all of these victims are saying it wasn't

851
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 1: my fault. I thought it was my fault. They said

852
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: for years, I wanted a movie role, I wanted to

853
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: be successful in my career, and this person was the

854
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: president of the industry, for lack of a better word,

855
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: a king. If you mind now, I'm going to put

856
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: yet another tough question to Jeff Herman. Jeff Herman Uh,

857
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: the Hollywood Reporter is reporting that in the past you

858
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: we're actually accused of sex assault. Explain, well, you know,

859
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: I am obviously sensitive to the allegations and impact that

860
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: they can have on people, and I've dedicated my career

861
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: now to representing victims of sexual abuse. Um, and you

862
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: know I'm not going to criticize this woman. You know what, Jeff,

863
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: It has been made very public in the Hollywood Reporter article.

864
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: Jeff Herman, the go to lawyer for Hollywood sex abuse claims,

865
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: was once accused of rape. That is the banner, the

866
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: headline in this Hollywood Reporter piece. I'm asking him about

867
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: it now, and he refuses to comment on the accuser.

868
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: Jeff Herman, my focus today is on justice, and whatever

869
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: the claim is against you, I want the truth to

870
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,240
Speaker 1: be known in that claim. And as far as Harvey

871
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: Weinstein goes, same thing. I want the truth to be

872
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: known in all of those cases. Whether it makes the

873
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: courthouse all down around us, let the truth be known

874
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: in justice. Fine a way. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, Simmy Hawk,

875
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: goodbye friend.