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Speaker 1: But knowledge to work and grow your business with c

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Speaker 1: i T. From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i

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Speaker 1: T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for

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Speaker 1: small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i

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Speaker 1: T dot com put Knowledge to Work. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe

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Speaker 1: wisen Pal and I'm sad to say that this week

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Speaker 1: my co host Tracy Alloway is uh out. She's currently traveling,

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Speaker 1: so it's just going to be me this week. So

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Speaker 1: this is where normally she would interject something and then

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Speaker 1: we'd have like some banter, but I'm not really good

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Speaker 1: at solo banter, so I'm not even gonna try to

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Speaker 1: say anything funny or coy. I'm just gonna jump right

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Speaker 1: to the topic. Unless you've been living under a rock,

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Speaker 1: you've probably heard about the incredible frenzy that we've seen

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Speaker 1: of late in a crypto assets, cryptocurrencies, whether we were

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Speaker 1: talking about Bitcoin or Ethereum or I c O S

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Speaker 1: or all these things just NonStop incredible moves these days.

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Speaker 1: So it really is sort of, uh, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: time that we talked about them here, and so today

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, we have a guest who's very well

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Speaker 1: positioned to talk about just what the heck is going

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Speaker 1: on in this area. His name is Chris Bernisky. He's

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Speaker 1: the blockchain products lead at art invest which is a

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Speaker 1: asset management company that has E t f s and

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Speaker 1: they actually are one of the few firms that actually

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Speaker 1: has exposure to bitcoin. So he is going to help us,

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Speaker 1: uh sort out just what's going on right now? What

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Speaker 1: is it where we are? Is this a bubble? What's

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Speaker 1: going on? Why are people so excited about this area? Chris,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us, Thanks for having

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Speaker 1: me so. First of all, before we get into this,

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Speaker 1: what is our convest Our Convest is an investment manager.

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Speaker 1: We were started in January, actually, the same month that

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Speaker 1: Ethereum was announced by Vitalic. Right now we're approaching about

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Speaker 1: a billion in assets. But the key to ARC is

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Speaker 1: taking the open source software development paradigm and applying it

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Speaker 1: to Wall Street investment management and research. So whereas most

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Speaker 1: investment managers keep their trades and their research close to

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Speaker 1: their chest, we actually share all of that um because

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Speaker 1: it allows our THESS to evolve more quickly and it

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Speaker 1: abus trust within us. Tell us about your products, you

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Speaker 1: have e t F. We primarily have e ts UM

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Speaker 1: and they focus solely on disruptive innovation, and as a

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Speaker 1: thematic investment manager, they focus on different themes. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: we have our Next Generation Internet ETF, which has themes

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Speaker 1: like machine learning, cloud computing, Internet of things, and cryptoasts

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Speaker 1: and so for example, in that e t F, bitcoin

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Speaker 1: is actually a number one position. Uh. And then we've

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Speaker 1: got other e t F like genomics or industrial innovation,

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Speaker 1: so on and so forth. We do have a fintech

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Speaker 1: mutual fund in Japan, and we do some separately managed accounts.

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Speaker 1: So we're a broad purpose investment manager. Now what's your background?

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Speaker 1: You're talking? Sorry I keep forgetting the name of your title,

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Speaker 1: but that's probably because it's unusual, you know, it's not

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Speaker 1: most people blockchain projects lead. You can think of me

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Speaker 1: as the only by side analysts to focus on crypto

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Speaker 1: assets with a flavor of business development in there. So

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Speaker 1: how did you become the blockchain products lead? Where? What's

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Speaker 1: your background? How did you become the person who would

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Speaker 1: analyze these analyze these assets? Well, as with much of life,

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Speaker 1: is a chance. Uh. But uh? In college in two

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Speaker 1: thousand eleven, two thousand twelve, Uh, Bitcoin across the radar.

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Speaker 1: I was a student at Stanford at the time, pretty

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Speaker 1: tech focused environment and are exploring, uh, this brave new world,

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Speaker 1: and that took me down a bit of a rabbit hole.

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Speaker 1: I remember looking with friends at mining equipment on Craigslist

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Speaker 1: and these racks of servers, and we briefly flirted with

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Speaker 1: the idea of having a mining operation. But you know,

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Speaker 1: at the time, I didn't dig deeply enough to dissociate

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Speaker 1: bitcoin from what was the major application at the time,

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Speaker 1: which was the Silk Road, and so I interpreted much

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Speaker 1: of what was going on as um illegal and UH

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Speaker 1: didn't necessarily have the courage at the time to leap in.

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Speaker 1: UH forgot about bitcoin for a few years. Joined ARC,

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Speaker 1: and at that time, our director of research had invested

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Speaker 1: in bitcoin early on. It was something that we knew

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Speaker 1: was going to be important, and so picked up the

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Speaker 1: ball and ran with it, and UH that eventually led

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Speaker 1: me here. You characterize yourself as a by side in

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Speaker 1: the list, and that raises an interesting question, which is

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Speaker 1: that when you hear people talk about any of these

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Speaker 1: crypto assets like yeah, but you know, how how do

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Speaker 1: you value them? What is the fundamental value you know,

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Speaker 1: it's with most things we have, uh, you know, with stocks, obviously,

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Speaker 1: people have developed all kinds of models for valuing of

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Speaker 1: stock based on earnings and cash flow and growth. And

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Speaker 1: with commodities the cost of mining versus the demand, and

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Speaker 1: with currencies, things like purchasing power parity, and so all

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Speaker 1: these established models that exist for the you know, the

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Speaker 1: asset classes that we've been familiar with for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and then people look at something like ethereum or bitcoin

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Speaker 1: or you know, now they're you know, they're hundreds of

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Speaker 1: these coins out there, and they don't have any idea

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Speaker 1: how to even go about saying, oh, this is a

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Speaker 1: fair price, so this is undervalued or this is overvalued.

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Speaker 1: So how do you think about that question? It's it's

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Speaker 1: a great question. And if we think of this as

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Speaker 1: a new asset class, it follows that we will have

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Speaker 1: new valuation techniques. And it's big part of actually what

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Speaker 1: I spend my time focusing on. I think of it

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Speaker 1: as a combination of current utility value plus discounted expected

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Speaker 1: utility value UM. And to give you an example of

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that, we can take bitcoin UM.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people talk about people using bitcoin for remittances,

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Speaker 1: and I know of a number of companies using bitcoin

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Speaker 1: Fermances whose volumes are growing ten month over month, which

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Speaker 1: is hyper growth. If we take the remittances market, it's

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Speaker 1: a roughly five hundred billion dollar market, and assume at

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Speaker 1: some future date bitcoin will take ten percent of that market.

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Speaker 1: Certainly at that point the market will be a little bigger,

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Speaker 1: but we'll run with this for now. So ten percent

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Speaker 1: of a five billion dollar market means bitcoin would have

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Speaker 1: to store fifty billion in value in that year. Now

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Speaker 1: you have to also slap a velocity on it, velocity

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Speaker 1: of money for how often that asset's going to turn over,

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Speaker 1: So velocity of the US dollars five. So we did

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Speaker 1: what what is the five? What's being measured for the velocity?

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Speaker 1: It is the number of times that currency is turning

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Speaker 1: over per year to facilitate the transaction cockits and services.

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Speaker 1: So if we say bitcoin's going to be roughly five

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Speaker 1: as well, we take that fifty billion in value transfer

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Speaker 1: that bitcoin will facilitate divided by five to get ten

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Speaker 1: billion in stored value that year that bitcoin will need

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Speaker 1: to have in order to facilitate that use case. So,

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Speaker 1: just to back up, if you wanted to do fifty

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Speaker 1: billion worth of remittances based on the sort of some

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Speaker 1: expectation of how many times a typical bitcoin would move

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Speaker 1: in a year, you would need Bitcoin would need to

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Speaker 1: be worth ten billions, would need to store facilitate that much,

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Speaker 1: facilitate that much of a market, Yes, and only for

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Speaker 1: the remittances use case. Right, Um, And then what we

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Speaker 1: can do is we can start to stack different use cases. Right.

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Speaker 1: We look at the globe a financial gold market roughly

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Speaker 1: two and a half trillion. If bitcoin we're to take

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Speaker 1: one percent of that, that means it would have to

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Speaker 1: store twenty five billion in value for that use case.

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Speaker 1: And so you can see how we can start to

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Speaker 1: stack these different requirements for stored value. To get an

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Speaker 1: idea of how what I call the network value of bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: which is analogous to to market cap for stocks and uh.

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Speaker 1: The reason I say current utility value versus discounted expected

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Speaker 1: utility value is the market price of this asset is

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Speaker 1: comprised of what people are currently using it for plus

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Speaker 1: the expectations for its use. And so for any expectations

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Speaker 1: of its use, we have to discount that back to

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Speaker 1: the present. So so combining these two values. We can

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Speaker 1: get the current market price of these assets interesting real quickly.

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Speaker 1: You're publicly each traded e t F to do have

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Speaker 1: exposure to bitcoin? How do you get that? We get

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Speaker 1: it through Gray Scales Bitcoin Investment Trust UM, which is

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Speaker 1: a trust that tracks to roughly one tenth the value

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Speaker 1: of bitcoin. Now, with the way that the trust is

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Speaker 1: set up UM, at least the publicly traded part, which

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Speaker 1: is ticker GBTC trades o t c q X over

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Speaker 1: the counter markets, it doesn't have a functionality to meet

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Speaker 1: supply and demand, and so it tends to trade at

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Speaker 1: a significant premium, which is something investors should be aware of.

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Speaker 1: So that has grown to be UM a number one

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Speaker 1: position in two of our A t F s are

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Speaker 1: Internet e TF air kW and our overall Innovation e TF.

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Speaker 1: But knowledge to work and grow your business with c

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Speaker 1: I T from transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C I

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Speaker 1: T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for

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Speaker 1: small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c I

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Speaker 1: T dot com Put Knowledge to work. All right, let's

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Speaker 1: swim gears for a second, because you know, people are

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Speaker 1: maybe heard of bitcoin for a while, and there's obviously

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Speaker 1: been tons said about it, and it's the old man

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Speaker 1: in the room. Yeah, exactly. The thing that everyone is

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Speaker 1: talking about and curious about and asking questions about these

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Speaker 1: days are these things called I c o s. And

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Speaker 1: that's really what I want to talk about UM initial

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Speaker 1: coin offerings. It sounds like I p o s, but

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Speaker 1: it's one letter different, regrettably. What what are they? You

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Speaker 1: can think of them as the combination of crowd funding,

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Speaker 1: which we all learned about through Kickstarter UM plus blockchain technology.

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Speaker 1: So Kickstarter coincidentally started the same year that bitcoin launched,

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine, and that taught us about how we

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Speaker 1: can use capital from the crowds to fund projects. And

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Speaker 1: then blockchain technology basically allows the decentralized storing and transfer

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Speaker 1: of value. And what we've been having at the intersection

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Speaker 1: of these two is assets that are similar to bitcoin

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Speaker 1: but perform different use cases. So atherorem is something that

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Speaker 1: we will we will end up talking about, I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: So that's a decentralized world computer UM, and it uses

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Speaker 1: the blockchain in order to facilitate value transfer. In order

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Speaker 1: to pay for that computer, and in order to get

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Speaker 1: that project off the ground, there was a crowd sale,

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Speaker 1: so because blockchains are really good at storing and transferring

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Speaker 1: this value, people are natively using that functionality to bootstrap

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Speaker 1: capital for their projects. So let's walk through how what

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Speaker 1: kind of project it would be and how you would

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Speaker 1: raise one would go about raising money through an I

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Speaker 1: c O. Let's, you know, create a fictitious example or

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Speaker 1: a real example. We can use a real example. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's do that. A few weeks back, I participated in

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Speaker 1: a crowd sale known as er gun. And what Aragon does.

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Speaker 1: We'll walk through sort of my process right when I'm

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Speaker 1: when I'm figuring out, Okay, am I going to participate

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Speaker 1: in this? First thing I do is okay? What is

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Speaker 1: the use case? Is this survival use case? What Aragon does?

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Speaker 1: You're gonna have to hang with me here. I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna listen. Aragon U is a platform on top of Ethereum,

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Speaker 1: uses Ethereum's decentralized world computer, and it basically provides um

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Speaker 1: and out of the box system in order for corporations

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Speaker 1: to run on top of the theorem. So provides cap

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Speaker 1: table accounting, payroll management, things like that. And so what

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be used for long term is facilitating decentralized

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Speaker 1: autonomous organizations. So Ethereum is a basically is a crypto.

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Speaker 1: It's a current cryptocurrency, but commodity crypto commodity that has

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Speaker 1: all this You're called it a decentralized world computer upon

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Speaker 1: which you can run new application, exact companies and stuff.

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Speaker 1: And you participated in the initial coin offering of a

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Speaker 1: company that runs on top of ethereum, whose business is

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Speaker 1: going to be facilitating other companies to run on top

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Speaker 1: of ethereum. Yes, the only thing I would change in

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Speaker 1: what you said, You've got to exactly correct is replacing

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Speaker 1: company with protocol. These aren't that they're not companies and

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Speaker 1: that they're not generating cash flows necessarily, they're facilitating through

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Speaker 1: software distributed software. And so Arragon is not a company,

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Speaker 1: it's a protocols protocol. Does that mean that there's not

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Speaker 1: like a corporate entity associated with it? Now, this is

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Speaker 1: something of experimentation UM. Different projects are experimenting with having

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Speaker 1: foundations or are different UM entities that won't necessarily classify

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Speaker 1: as a cash generating company UM in order to support

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Speaker 1: the development of the protocol. But there's not going to

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Speaker 1: be you know, quarterly earnings calls on revenue and earnings

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Speaker 1: and Eve done all these things. That was step one.

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Speaker 1: So that's evaluating long term, do I think this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a viable project. Then look into the team,

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Speaker 1: great pair of developers behind this project, and then we

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Speaker 1: get more into logistics. And in order to participate in

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Speaker 1: a lot of these sales, you have to send either

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Speaker 1: bitcoin or ether to an address. And uh, let's let's

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Speaker 1: say we're using ether in this example. So what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing there is I am sending Ether that I have,

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Speaker 1: which stores value, right, and sending it to an address

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Speaker 1: that lives on Ethereum's blockchain, and in depositing that Ether

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Speaker 1: in that address, basically that address records. Okay, this other address,

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Speaker 1: which represents Chris, is entitled to a certain number of

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Speaker 1: these units of Aragon, which is the ticker an team,

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Speaker 1: and so in that process they're able to accept in

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Speaker 1: mass capital um from the outside world that is then

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Speaker 1: programmatically exchanged into shares of their of their new protocol these. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so now you have these coins from the Aragon. What

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Speaker 1: are they? What do you do with them? What are

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Speaker 1: they for? How do they create value for you? Um? Well,

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Speaker 1: there there are those two aspects of value, right. The

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Speaker 1: current utility value versus the discount and expected utility value. UM.

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Speaker 1: The UH. The reason for Aragon. One of the main

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Speaker 1: reasons for Aragon to have a native token is actually

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Speaker 1: UH to facilitate a decentralized court. Um. So if you

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Speaker 1: have these organizations right running on top of Aragon, let's

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Speaker 1: say there's disputes, um, Since they're decentralized organizations, they won't

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Speaker 1: necessarily go to the courts we think of them. UM,

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Speaker 1: they will actually go to the masses and let the

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Speaker 1: masses decide upon what is the truth or not the truth,

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Speaker 1: what is right or wrong, and pay out using the

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Speaker 1: native Arragon token to the people that perform that service.

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Speaker 1: So we've gotten very abstract. Yeah, no, I know, but

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Speaker 1: that's right because you know, I think where it's seventeen

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Speaker 1: and everyone's got an open mind and people realize. So

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Speaker 1: it's okay, we can keep going down this. But it

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Speaker 1: is pretty abstract. It is abstract. Now, these courts are

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Speaker 1: they like and you say that people are going to decide?

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Speaker 1: Are there going to be literal votes? Is there people

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Speaker 1: on a jury and who will participate? And is it

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Speaker 1: like something like the algorithm decided? So decentralized votes, right,

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Speaker 1: UM a broad set of actors that anyone can can

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Speaker 1: participate in. If you have the token, yes, if you're

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Speaker 1: involved within the network, you will get paid out in

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Speaker 1: the token UM for for voting correctly UM. And so

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Speaker 1: what happens over time is as more organizations build on

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Speaker 1: top of Arragon, there will be more demand for that

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Speaker 1: token for these conflict resolution use cases. But there's also

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Speaker 1: because this is open source software, it can evolve over time,

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Speaker 1: there can be further use cases that are built in

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Speaker 1: that require that and you need So let's say I'm

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Speaker 1: a business and so you know, let's they go to

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Speaker 1: the very end consumer some business and like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: seems could write there. You said, the Arragon is positioning

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Speaker 1: itself as a service to businesses. Right, what's a kind

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Speaker 1: of business that might benefit from this UM. Well, this

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Speaker 1: idea of a decentralized autonomous organization, it's not like a

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Speaker 1: typical entity as we get it now. It would be

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Speaker 1: a sort of new kind of well organization's UM it

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Speaker 1: is taking your typical organization. Let's take an insurance company, right,

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Speaker 1: So an insurance company is really a number of policies

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Speaker 1: and procedures, right, a number of If this, then that statements.

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Speaker 1: That's what claims management is. And what's happening is we

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Speaker 1: are having um, these processes be written in software, so

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Speaker 1: you can actually have a waterfall of decisions, right UM.

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Speaker 1: If let's say, if Christ misses his flight, UM pay

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Speaker 1: him thirty dollars. If he doesn't miss his flight, he

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Speaker 1: doesn't get paid anything. But it can become more complex

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Speaker 1: than that, more conditional. And so these organizations, these processes

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Speaker 1: are being written in code. And the reason it's called

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Speaker 1: the decentralized autonomous organization is just as we have autonomous vehicles,

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Speaker 1: these organizations are expected to in part run themselves, and

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Speaker 1: so in running themselves, they need to be on top

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Speaker 1: of a platform that helps facilitate that and interfaces beneath

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Speaker 1: that with ethereum, which is, you know, dividing the compute

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Speaker 1: power to process all of these these decisions. Here's a

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Speaker 1: question I have that als sounds pretty cool right now.

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Speaker 1: There's clearly a lot of uh, I think when I

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Speaker 1: look at it, a lot of speculative fast money coming

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Speaker 1: into the space, people who are looking for to make

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Speaker 1: a get rich fast which is not necessarily an indictment

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Speaker 1: because they've always that's always part of any industry, So

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Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean bubble. I don't know, but there's

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Speaker 1: clearly just a lot of people looking for flips, looking

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Speaker 1: for trades. Two questions A is anyone actually using these

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Speaker 1: tokens yet in a or and do any of these

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Speaker 1: antionies actually exist where there's a real ecosystem for these

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Speaker 1: tokens or is it still all in basically in the

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Speaker 1: trading realm. Actually that's my first question. You know, are

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Speaker 1: there any saying, oh, this is really here's an organization,

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Speaker 1: or here's a protocol and people are really using it. UM.

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Speaker 1: A lot of these teams have what are called test nets,

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Speaker 1: where they have what you could think of as a

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Speaker 1: minimum viable protocol UM that's in development, just as for

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Speaker 1: example with the Genomics company right something that's gone public,

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Speaker 1: they're running it through the process getting it to the

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Speaker 1: end market, the end consumer. And for Ethereum and the

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Speaker 1: apps decentralized apps that are being built on top of

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Speaker 1: it or protocols, a lot of those do not have

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Speaker 1: mainstream use as of yet. As you said, UM, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of discounted expected utility value or speculative value

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Speaker 1: to these assets. But what's key right now for me

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Speaker 1: when I look at something like ethereum, the users are

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Speaker 1: the developers. It's it's not a mainstream application. My mom

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Speaker 1: or grandma is not going to be using it. It's

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Speaker 1: the developers and the developers, because this space is so young,

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Speaker 1: um are the ones that are building it out. You

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Speaker 1: have a lot of people starting to talk about this

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Speaker 1: as Internet three point oh um. It took a while.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the Internet had its origins in nineteen packet switching,

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Speaker 1: so it takes a while to build these things out.

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Speaker 1: Right now, we have mostly developers using ethereum. We've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of mainstream use cases for a bitcoin, I

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Speaker 1: would say increasingly so um, and over time there will

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Speaker 1: be more mainstream users, but right now they are definitely

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Speaker 1: mainstream speculators. There mains. I think that's a very well

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Speaker 1: pushed So there are mainstream speculators sort of everyday people,

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Speaker 1: or you know, even not many everyday people, but certainly

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Speaker 1: people saving enough to like figure out how the geeks speculating,

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Speaker 1: but nothing really you know, basically all of these projects

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Speaker 1: are still in the infancy in terms of actual uses.

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Speaker 1: Everything is largely in its infancy. I mean, if we

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Speaker 1: go back in time, so Toshi Nakamoto released the Bitcoin

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Speaker 1: White Paper in late two eight, So the whole movement

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Speaker 1: is not even a decade old. And and and you

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Speaker 1: raise a good point where speculation lays the foundation for innovation.

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Speaker 1: When we look at you know, the railroad boom, or

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Speaker 1: when we look at, um the tech and telecom boom,

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Speaker 1: we had a fiberglut. People build things out way too much.

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Speaker 1: They got ahead of themselves. And that's okay, um, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a predictable pattern we've seen over time. Another question

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Speaker 1: I have is could you get into a situation in

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Speaker 1: which the speculators discourage actual usage. In other words, it's

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Speaker 1: so it's perceived as being expensive. Let's say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to let's say, do something more. I know

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Speaker 1: that there's some of these, uh like these ones that

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Speaker 1: are trying to build prediction markets based on top of ethereum,

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Speaker 1: which is something I've been looking into things well, you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to do my research. But I'm interested. I've always

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Speaker 1: been interested in prediction markets and I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting idea and I missed, you know, I wish

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Speaker 1: in trade were still around on some of these sides.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, like do I really want

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Speaker 1: to be Let's say I wanted to get involved in that.

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Speaker 1: Do I really want to pay up to get involved

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Speaker 1: in this prediction market or put my tokens at risk

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Speaker 1: if the tokens keep soaring in price, and I'd be

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Speaker 1: better off just holding them UM so really quick. The

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Speaker 1: prediction market thing, that's partially what underlies Aragon prediction market

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Speaker 1: to resolve disputes for companies UM now in terms of

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Speaker 1: the value of these tokens actually being debilitating to the

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Speaker 1: underlying utility of the protocol UM. It's something I've been

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Speaker 1: talking about with Joel manegro a lot um. Joel manegro

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Speaker 1: So he was the blockchain lead at Union Square Ventures.

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Speaker 1: UM clearly reputable firm. UH, and one of our concerns

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Speaker 1: is exactly as you said when you look at atherorum

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Speaker 1: right now. For example, the native token for ethereum ether.

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Speaker 1: The more that goes up in price, the more expensive

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Speaker 1: it is in some ways to use the network, and

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Speaker 1: so there needs to be a way UM and Ethereum

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Speaker 1: has tried to solve this with the dynamic exchange rate

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Speaker 1: for the units that you pay to use UM. It's

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Speaker 1: it's world computer called US. So people are working on

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Speaker 1: ways to dissociate UM the rise and value of the

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Speaker 1: token from actually using the underlying network. So basically, in

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Speaker 1: other words, you don't want to have a situation where

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Speaker 1: let's say, you know, going back to what's the dispute,

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Speaker 1: what's the I c ou participate aragon aragon. So let's

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Speaker 1: say it costs x amount of what's the unit called

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Speaker 1: is to just called an arragon T. All right, Let's say, uh,

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Speaker 1: it costs x amount of A and T for this

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Speaker 1: dispute resolution mechanism. You don't want a situation in which

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Speaker 1: suddenly the value goes up five x and it's suddenly

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Speaker 1: five x more expensive. You want to be able to

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Speaker 1: create a protocol so that the price drops accordingly with

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Speaker 1: the increase in value exactly. Now, what's what's nice about

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Speaker 1: these things UM is as they accrue value, they do

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Speaker 1: bring new people on board, right, and there's more capital

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Speaker 1: UM in order to to to front the fund the

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Speaker 1: protocol development. So it is a balance UM. But you

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Speaker 1: struck at the heart of something that does concern me.

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Speaker 1: And when we when we think of how the VC

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Speaker 1: world exists, right, vcs allocate capital for the long term

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Speaker 1: in order to help these teams build out. If we

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Speaker 1: have too much capital sloshing back and forth between these

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Speaker 1: different protocols, that may actually hurt the value of what's

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Speaker 1: being built here. So this is something that's that's under development,

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Speaker 1: and I think teams are really focused on given the

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Speaker 1: recent rise in speculation. All right, well, Chris Bernsky of

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Speaker 1: our convest thank you so much. This is a fascinating

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Speaker 1: sort of sci fi world and I think, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's certainly very eye opening to me. I've done a

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Speaker 1: little bit of research into this, but hearing you describe

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Speaker 1: the layers upon layers and new kinds of entities, new

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Speaker 1: kinds of mechanisms is fascinating and regardless of whether we're

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Speaker 1: in a bubble or whatever. And I hate using that

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Speaker 1: word because when people, when media people use the word bubble,

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Speaker 1: they're always wrong. But um, it's still very intriguing to watch.

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Speaker 1: So thank you very much for coming on Brave New World. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: That'll do it for this episode of the Odd Lodge podcast.

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Speaker 1: Because Tracy isn't here, there's no point for us to

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Speaker 1: uh have any banter at the end, So thanks for listening.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: the Stalwart. You can find Tracy on Twitter at Tracy

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Speaker 1: Alloway are wonderful producer? Sarah Patterson on Twitter at Sarah

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Speaker 1: patt with two ts, and Chris are you on Twitter?

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Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter as well. What's your handle? A r

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Speaker 1: K blockchain? A r K blockchain? Check him out tweets

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Speaker 1: a bunch of fascinating stuff about this space, and you'll

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Speaker 1: probably learn a lot. Thanks for listening, but knowledge to

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Speaker 1: work and grow your business with c i T from

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Speaker 1: transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers commercial lending, leasing,

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Speaker 1: and treasury management services for small and middle market businesses.

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Speaker 1: Learn more at c i T dot com put knowledge

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Speaker 1: to work