1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Two months ago, we devoted an episode to a tropical 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: paradise that was fast becoming a geopolitical football. That paradise 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: was the Maldives, the subject economic and political rivalry between 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: China and India. But things move fast. There's another superpower 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: playground that's getting hot, the South Pacific. China's sway is 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: increasing in a region that's traditionally a sphere of American, 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: French and Australian influence. The country most in focus is Vanuatu, 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: where China is dishing out lots of loans and beefing 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: up the nation's infrastructure. But sooner or later, critics say 10 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: China will want to convert some of that leverage into 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: a base for its military. Welcome to Benchmark, a show 12 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: about the global economy. I'm Daniel moss Net, aonomics writer 13 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: and editor at Limburg Opinion in New York. And I'm 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: Scott Landman and economics editor Limburgh News in Washington. So 15 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: what's at stake in Vanawa to in the South Pacific? 16 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: How has the region's economic and political profile changed and 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: what are the consequences. Our guest Jonathan Prike from the 18 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: Lower Institute in Sydney, will try to explain it for us, Jonathan, 19 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us, Thanks for having me guys. First 20 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: of all, why should we care if China's influence in 21 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: the South Pacific is growing or shrinking? Well, yeah, why 22 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: don't we start with a bit of geography on on 23 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: what we mean by the South Pacific. The South Pacific 24 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: is the region of the Pacific Islands that makes is 25 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: made up of fourteen sovereign nations, and they range from 26 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: in size from tiny New a country of fred people, 27 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: to Papua New Guinea, a country of more than eight million. 28 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: They take up of the world surface and are rich 29 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: in fishery resources, but are smaller people numbers. I think 30 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: total population of the Pacific Islands is somewhere around thirteen 31 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: million people. But because they make up of the world surface, 32 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: because of that, the fisheries and exclusive economics own resources 33 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: that they have. There is a significant some significant interests 34 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: in the region. But when you step back and look 35 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: at the South Pacific in the global geopolitical sphere, it's 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: really hard to see a huge amount of significance. It's 37 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: not on major shipping routes. It's it's distant from from 38 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: the power bases in Asia. But when you look to 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: World War Two, you can see at the significant role 40 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: that the Pacific Islands region has played in geo strategy 41 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: in the past. And why is it important. Well, it's 42 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: important particularly for Australia because we see the Pacific as 43 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: really our backyard. Former Prime Minister of pup Guinea sorry 44 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: of Australia, John Howard once called the Pacific our patch. 45 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: So we now have changed that language to call in 46 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,399 Speaker 1: ourselves the partner of choice for the Pacific and that's 47 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: a relation, a relationship that we want to make tame 48 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: in the region. So it's definitely this, this rise of 49 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: China and the Pacific is definitely causing a great degree 50 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: of anxiety in Canberra and in other traditional power bases 51 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: that have had a role to play in the Pacific, 52 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: that of Tokyo, Washington and Wellington. So how did Vanua 53 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: to become the geo strategic flashpoint in all this, especially 54 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: with regards to China and Australia right now? Yeah, So 55 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: it's it's important to note that China's rise in the 56 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: Pacific hasn't happened overnight. Indeed, China has links to the 57 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: Pacific that go back hundreds of years, generations of Chinese 58 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: migrants that are in the Pacific that play an important 59 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: role in a lot of these communities. But really since 60 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: about two thousand and six, we have seen a ramping 61 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: up of China's engagement in the Pacific. And I also 62 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: note that China's only engaged formally with eight countries in 63 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: the Pacific Islands. There remain reign six support Taiwan, and 64 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: they now make up just one third of the of 65 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: Taiwan's remaining support based in the United Nations. So that's 66 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: such just an interesting little little elements of China's engagement. 67 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: But since two thousand and six, China has really been 68 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: been ramping up its engagement in the Pacific. A lot 69 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: of that has come in the form of what we 70 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: see what China's doing elsewhere in the world, the form 71 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: of concessional loans to build large infrastructure projects, and China's 72 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: been doing this in a big way in a number 73 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: of countries in the Pacific, Vanawatta being one of them. 74 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: For research from the Lower Institute has shown that that 75 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: China has injected over one point eight billion dollars of 76 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: lending and grants into the Pacific Island region since two 77 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: thousand and six. That would put it anywhere between the 78 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,559 Speaker 1: top three and top five donor to the Pacific Islands region. 79 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: Vanawatu has immerges a flashpoint for this engagement this year 80 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: because when you take a look at the all the 81 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: different projects that China's engaged in, all the infrastructure projects, 82 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: most of them to pically are pretty benign. In a 83 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: lot of these countries, you know that big government buildings 84 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: that rehabilitating city centers that not really you can't really 85 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: see how they could be of dual use as we 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: have seen China do in other parts of the the world. 87 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: So they're not critical infrastructure. That not deep seaports and 88 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: not airports. They're not these these projects that China might 89 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: want to consider doing an asset buyback or um you 90 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: want to use as a dual use facility later down 91 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: the road. That's different in Vanuatu. In Vanuatu, China has 92 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: rehabilitated a port, a deep sea port on the country's 93 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: largest island, but one of its least inhabited. And you know, 94 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: analysts are from around the world look at look at 95 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: that project. Look at this now deep sea port that 96 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: reports have sean has the capacity to host an aircraft carrier. 97 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: They look at that project with a great degree of anxiety. Jonathan, 98 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: How have the region's economics changed. Is it a shift 99 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: in the contours of foreign aid traditionally dominated by Australia, 100 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: France and the US, or is there something else going 101 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: on here economically? Yeah, well, the economics of Pacific Islands, 102 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: of these smaller countries is quite unique. You know, most 103 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: of these countries are not going to follow a traditional 104 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: traditional economic development pathway just because of the small size 105 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: of most of these economies and just their remoteness to market. 106 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: So in the case of Vanuatu, Vanuatu is one of 107 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: the most tourist dependent economies in the world, but foreign 108 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: aid is always going to also going to be a 109 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: significant contributor to economic development and to the the economies 110 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: more broadly in these countries. So the fact that China 111 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: is injecting a lot of infrastructure into Vanuatu does have 112 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: an impact on on Vanuatu's economy, but it's not nearly 113 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: as important as the as the tourism markets that Vanawatu 114 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: benefits from, which are dominated by Australia and New Zealand, 115 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: and from cruise ships. So you know, well, the sport 116 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: that they have built is as sensibly to to increase 117 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: the amount of tourism arrivals. We haven't actually seen that eventuate. 118 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: But there is also another lends to look at this 119 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: Chinese lending through is that of the debt that Vanawata 120 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: is stacking up by taking on these loans, and that 121 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: debt profile gives China significant economic leverage over Vanawatta. How 122 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: they can use that leverage to their advantage is a 123 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: question I'm everyone is wondering. I'm not convinced that Vanawata 124 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: can really be brought through through this economic leverage. That 125 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: this is a country with with agency and you know, 126 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: their their foreign minister has come out recently after these 127 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: recent Saga has hit the press and said emphatically that 128 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: there is no way that they would let China develop 129 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: any sort of dual use military assets or any sort 130 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: of fixed base in Vanawatta. They just have no interest 131 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: in doing it. So just because China has this economic 132 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: leverage over Vanuata doesn't mean they're going to be able 133 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: to wield it as they might like in the future. 134 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: Jonathan talking about economic leverage from another point of view. 135 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: Here in Washington lately, we're spending a lot of time 136 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: writing and following what's going on between the US and 137 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: China over trade, with the potential for a trade war 138 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: looming high in a lot of people's minds, is there 139 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: any connection between how China might approach trade negotiations with 140 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: the United States or with other trading partners end China's 141 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: approach to influence in the South Pacific or just the 142 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: Greater Asia Pacific region. Well, yeah, that's a it's a 143 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: really interesting question, I guess. In the South Pacific, trade 144 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: is really insignificance component of the relationship or China's export 145 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: to a degree to these countries, but it's not at 146 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: all significant for China's trading profile so far. More important 147 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: I think for their engagement in the South Pacific is 148 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: to build political and formal influence in these countries, to 149 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: get support at the United Nations, to get our geopolitical support, 150 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: and too, yes, secure their support in the future. PUPN 151 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: New Guinea is a different story. Pup New guineas country 152 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: of eight ten million people that is rich in a 153 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: whole range of natural resources that China might be interested 154 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: in securing. But yeah, the trade component of this relationship 155 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: hasn't really eventuated in any significant degree at the moment. 156 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: China's engagement with Australia. A major component of that is 157 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: the trade relationship, and it has a significant influence on 158 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: the way in which we in Australia interacts with China, 159 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: and I guess it does shape the lens of the 160 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: way Australians are looking at China in the Pacific and 161 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: our immediate region because of just the challenges we're having 162 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: with our bilacteral relationship between Australia and China. There's been 163 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: some commentary that Britain wants to play a role enshoring 164 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: up the neighborhood. Jonathan, is this a joke? I mean, 165 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: Britain can't decide what its relations with France and Germany 166 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: should be, how can they give the South Pacific any 167 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: serious attention? Yeah, look, that's a great question. And I 168 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: think people have taken the announcements of Britain opening three 169 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: new diplomatic missions in the Pacific as a lot of 170 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: people have been heralding it as a potential game changer 171 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: or a Pacific pivot, and you know, I think that's 172 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: all nonsense. To be honest. First of all, the United 173 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: Kingdom has colonized half of the region, and to think 174 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: that they can come in and now act as as savior. 175 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: I think you know, we've seen how that story is 176 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: played out in the past. And just because they are 177 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: it is a post Brexit, UK is expanding its geopolitical 178 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: network again. It wants to establish itself more as a 179 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: global player. The South Pacific has been and will always 180 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: be on the fringe of geopolitical interest for the United Kingdom. 181 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: France has also committed to doing more in the South Pacific. 182 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: But if we are expecting them to really change the 183 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: landscape in any significant way, then um, I think we're 184 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: all going to be let down. The real owners should 185 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: be on the traditional powers that have been involved in 186 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: the Pacific for a long time, Australia, New Zealand, Japan 187 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: and the United States two look at the way in 188 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: which we're engaging with the Pacific and to really up 189 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: our game, to do more to maintain our positions as 190 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: being the partners of choice in the Pacific Islands region. 191 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: As the United States been alarmed at these developments at 192 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: all lately or or monitoring the situation in the South Pacific. Yeah, 193 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: so it's an interesting relationship between the United States and 194 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: Australia with regards to the Pacific Islands region, and it's 195 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: it's quite a unique one in that the United States 196 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: really does take a quite a hands off approach with 197 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: this part of the Pacific because they see Australia has 198 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: been a safe set of hands to be looking after 199 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: this part of the world, and they really do look 200 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: to us for guidance as to how they should be 201 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: engaging in this part of the world and in Banawatu 202 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: and other countries in the Pacific. So I'm sure there 203 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: have been some stern conversations between American and Australia about 204 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: as to what is going on in our immediate neighborhood 205 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: and asking whether Australia has dropped the ball here. But 206 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: I think the reality is that there was not much 207 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: Australia or the United States could have done to to 208 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: really curb the way in which China has been engaging 209 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: to this point. It would have or it would have 210 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: taken a very concerted effort, but we past that point 211 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: now and we have to work make sure we work 212 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: with China as much as possible to make sure what 213 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: they're doing in the region is beneficial to everyone. Jonathan, 214 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: You've done some work on labor mobility in the South Pacific. 215 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,359 Speaker 1: What are the microeconomics of this issue. Have the internal 216 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: economies of these island states changed significantly and is that 217 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: playing a role here? Oh yeah, so later mobility is 218 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: going to be a critical component for economic development in 219 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: a lot of these countries, as Australia, New Zealand and 220 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: other Western nations. We go through labor shortages, particularly in 221 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: areas of the economy such as agriculture and horticulture and 222 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: the care industries, where there just aren't enough Australians to 223 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: fill these demand We should be looking more and more 224 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: to the Pacific to help fill our labor shortages, and 225 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: we have been doing that more in recent years that 226 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: we have seasonal worker programs where we bring Pacific Islanders 227 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: into Australian New Zealand who work in fruit picking and 228 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: the benefits speak for themselves. I mean, the average income 229 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: for these people increases by more than fourfold, and they 230 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: all want to come back, and they all are incredibly 231 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: happy with the scheme. And on the employer's side, increases 232 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: productivity of their employe, of their workforce by almost by 233 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: bringing these Pacific Islanders in. So it's really a win 234 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: win for everyone and it shows just how important labor 235 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: mobility will be as a component of economic development for 236 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: the Pacific in the future. Now as to how it's 237 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: changed the economies of these countries, it's not a one 238 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: size fits all. I mean, Tonga is a country that 239 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: has really lent into lab mobility in a big way. 240 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: And now I think that the last numbers I saw 241 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: with something like of the working age male population of 242 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: Tonga now every year work abroad and that is having 243 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: a significant impact on the domestic economy. And you know 244 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: that there's now labor shortages back in Tonga as a 245 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: result of so many workers going abroad. But when you 246 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: look to other countries like Solomon Islands pop in New Guinea, 247 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: where there is a much larger workforce waiting to and 248 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: ready to go, then you know you can still see 249 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: how the untapped potential of lab mobility in the Pacific. 250 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: It just we need to have a better balance of 251 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: where these workers are coming from, because I think having 252 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: that many workers from from Tonga every year is just 253 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: going to be unsustainable practice for the tongue and economy. 254 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: Go Tonga. On that note, Jonathan, thank you so much 255 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: for joining us. Thank you. 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