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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four oh one of the

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Speaker 1: Theory for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation afterword from our sponsors. When Kashawn Thompson coined the

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Speaker 1: term black girl magic in twenty thirteen, it sparked a

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Speaker 1: movement that celebrated black women, girls, and felms their resilience,

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Speaker 1: beauty and power. And as amazing as the movement has been,

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Speaker 1: twelve years later, we find ourselves in an era of

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Speaker 1: blackfam representation that still struggles in its delineation of black

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Speaker 1: women from black girls, as the media examples dwindle in

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Speaker 1: culture shifts, we hear Therapy for Black Girls dare to

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Speaker 1: ask what even is black girlhood? Joining me for this

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Speaker 1: conversation is doctor Lauren Mimes, an assistant professor at NYU

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Speaker 1: Steinhardt School. Her research focuses on how sociocultural stressors impact

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Speaker 1: black children's development and identifying strengths that can buffer the

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Speaker 1: negative effects of bias and discrimination. She also served as

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Speaker 1: an assistant director of the White House Initiative on Educational

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Speaker 1: Excellence for African Americans during the Obama administration, exploring girlhood

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Speaker 1: and womanhood through education, media representation, psychology, and somehow even TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Mims helps us better contextualize not only what black

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Speaker 1: girlhood is, but how to empower young girls in helping

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Speaker 1: us define it. This conversation is a continuation of our

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Speaker 1: reflection on the past, present, in future of Black girlhood

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Speaker 1: and womanhood in celebration of four hundred episodes of Therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls. Very excited for you to hear this conversation.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG

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Speaker 1: in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us today, doctor Mims.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so excited.

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Speaker 3: I am a doctor, Joey Fan So I'm so excited

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Speaker 3: for us to get to talk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I am too. So can you start by telling

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about your background and what you

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Speaker 1: do as a psychologist?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, so.

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Speaker 3: I'm currently a professor of developmental psychology. I started in

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Speaker 3: the field of developmental psychology because I felt like there

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Speaker 3: was no one who was really focused and immersed in

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Speaker 3: thinking about from the moment a black child wakes up

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Speaker 3: to the moment they go to bed, what are the places,

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Speaker 3: the spaces, the relationships that either help or hinder their ability.

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Speaker 2: To be their best selves?

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Speaker 3: And so I really wanted to take this kind of

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Speaker 3: whole child approached understanding how to best support children's development.

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Speaker 3: So I started off as an undergrad at the University

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Speaker 3: of Virginia. I remember my textbooks. We had culture Week

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Speaker 3: and that was when we learned about non white children.

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Speaker 3: And I remember at the other end of my week,

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Speaker 3: I would go to African American studies classes, and I

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Speaker 3: remember I was so wrapped up and learning about the

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Speaker 3: brilliance of black Americans throughout time, and I thought, Huh,

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Speaker 3: we really need to bridge these two and thinking about

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Speaker 3: Black children's development and how we have this amazing history

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Speaker 3: of surviving and thriving, and how can we ensure take

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Speaker 3: what we know about black history and black people's lives

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Speaker 3: and use that to really transform the power and the

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Speaker 3: possibilities and the potential for Black children. And so I

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Speaker 3: have been working to think about how to create pathways

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Speaker 3: to thriving for Black children and their families.

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Speaker 2: And that's my journey. I took a small.

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Speaker 3: Leave of absence during my PhD to serve as assistant

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Speaker 3: director of the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for

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Speaker 3: African Americans during the Obama administration, which was amazing. I

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Speaker 3: was able to really think about when we center black

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Speaker 3: children's brilliance in the educational settings, then really looking and

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Speaker 3: thinking about what do they need. And one of the

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Speaker 3: things that we did then was bring black children into

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Speaker 3: the space and ask Black children what do they need

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Speaker 3: to be supported in school spaces and then work with

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Speaker 3: administrators and policymakers to think about how to we enact

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Speaker 3: those policies with that center black children's needs.

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Speaker 2: And so that has been where I am.

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Speaker 3: And now this kind of Virginia girl is here in

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Speaker 3: a big New York city, really focusing on thinking about

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Speaker 3: black children's excellence.

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Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you for that, doctor Miams. So

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear what kinds of things did the

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Speaker 1: children identify when you ask them, like, what kinds of

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Speaker 1: things do you need to be supported?

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Speaker 3: I love that question. I think sometimes those adults we think, oh,

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Speaker 3: more pizza parties, or we want to have restars is longer.

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Speaker 3: But they were really talking a lot about supports kind

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Speaker 3: of having their basic needs met, and so talking about

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Speaker 3: things we want to walk down the hallway and feel

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Speaker 3: like our bodies are not policed, particularly for black girls.

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Speaker 3: And I remember one girl said when she would walk

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Speaker 3: down the hallway the way that she said, my.

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Speaker 2: Hip swish naturally back and.

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Speaker 3: Forth, and people would think that I had an attitude,

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Speaker 3: and they would say, where are you going with all

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Speaker 3: of that attitude?

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Speaker 2: What are you doing?

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Speaker 3: And she really wanted teachers to understand black girls and

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Speaker 3: the unique experiences that they bring into the space, from

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Speaker 3: the way that they walk, the way that they talk,

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Speaker 3: the way that they engage in the classroom, so that

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Speaker 3: she didn't feel like she had to be someone else

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Speaker 3: or that she was going to walk down the hallway

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Speaker 3: to the bathroom and know that she would be stopped

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Speaker 3: by every teacher who thought that she was doing something wrong,

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Speaker 3: that she didn't have a pass. And so a lot

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Speaker 3: of it was around really thinking about discipline conversation, so

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Speaker 3: kind of rethinking discipline in those policies as well as

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Speaker 3: some of them said that there were not bathrooms doors

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Speaker 3: in the bathrooms, and that their water fountains weren't working.

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Speaker 3: They were really worried about nutritious access to meals. They said,

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Speaker 3: you know, the pizza is really greasy. I would love

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Speaker 3: for the pizza to change. And so I think that

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Speaker 3: a lot of what they wanted echoes a lot of

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Speaker 3: the things that we want for children, which we were

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Speaker 3: talking to elementary and middle school children, and so I

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Speaker 3: think when we give them the platform, they're really echoing

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Speaker 3: some of the things that the hopes and goals and

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Speaker 3: not just these kind of small fun things. But like

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Speaker 3: I will speak for them, they probably would want more recess.

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Speaker 3: They don't want to get rid of pizza altogether. But

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Speaker 3: a lot of the things they were talking about is

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Speaker 3: what does it mean to be a black student in

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Speaker 3: this school? Knowing that I may experience bias and discrimination

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Speaker 3: just for being me, and I don't want that. I

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Speaker 3: want teachers to see me and to affirm who I

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Speaker 3: am in this space.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that, and I think

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Speaker 1: you have given us like a very poignant example. Then

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Speaker 1: the reason why I really wanted to have this conversation

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Speaker 1: about black girlhood. So the example that you shared about

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Speaker 1: the little girl kind of walking through the hallway and

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Speaker 1: her hip swishing, and how adults often make one interpretation

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Speaker 1: of things that kids do that is not at all

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Speaker 1: accurate with the reality of what's happening and is often

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Speaker 1: a misinterpretation with black girls, right, Like there's often these

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Speaker 1: conduct or attitude lenses put on their behavior that is

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Speaker 1: not at all accurate. Can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about like how that happens and like the impact that

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Speaker 1: has on girls.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: So, I think one of the biggest studies that I

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Speaker 3: think a lot is about Georgetown, So the Center on

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Speaker 3: Gender Justice and Opportunity. They released the study a couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago that introduced this topic of adultification bias

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Speaker 3: against black girls. And so when they were in that study,

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Speaker 3: they found that among those that they surveyed, adults actually

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Speaker 3: perceived black girls to be less innocent, less needing of protection,

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Speaker 3: less needing of nurturing, and that they were more they

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Speaker 3: were seen more adult like than their peers. And this

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Speaker 3: started as young as five, and so I think I

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Speaker 3: also think a lot about There was a news story

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Speaker 3: in the New York Times about a young little girl

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Speaker 3: and she was giggling. She was giggling and having a

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Speaker 3: great time in class, and she was sent to the

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Speaker 3: nurse's office and she was actually searched for contraband because

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Speaker 3: her joy. They thought her joy must have come from

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Speaker 3: some type of drug. But I think for me, giggling

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Speaker 3: is a core part of children's experiences. But adultification bias

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Speaker 3: really takes that away from Black girls because at that

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Speaker 3: point they were seen as kind of miniature black women.

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Speaker 3: So then this is not miniature black women. It's from

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Speaker 3: a negative perception because all black women giggle as well,

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Speaker 3: the idea that they must be knowledgeable about illicit drugs

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Speaker 3: and they must be engaging in illicit drugs, and that's

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Speaker 3: why we see this giggling instead of seeing black girls

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Speaker 3: as Black girls as these kind of like learning, developing,

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Speaker 3: thriving little girls that need support, valued to be valued,

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Speaker 3: and kind of being loved and all the ways that

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Speaker 3: we want children to be, And so adultification bias really

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Speaker 3: shapes how adults see children to the point where I

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Speaker 3: just think a lot about the hip switching and the giggling,

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Speaker 3: and that you could police giggling and think that that

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Speaker 3: joy is related to something like engaging in enlictit drug

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Speaker 3: activity in elementary school mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: And I know that your work touches on this, and

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Speaker 1: there are so many other like brilliant researchers who are

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Speaker 1: doing a lot around the adultification of black girls right

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Speaker 1: and really helping educators, I think especially to look at

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Speaker 1: like how this is impacting the way they are disciplining

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Speaker 1: and teaching. Can you tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: some of those practices and what educators and maybe other

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Speaker 1: adults need to know about black girls.

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Speaker 2: I think the.

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Speaker 3: First thing is to really think about that really positive.

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Speaker 3: When you think of black girls, what do you think of?

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Speaker 3: And often I think the first intervention I always say

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Speaker 3: is self reflection. So how do I see the students

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Speaker 3: in my classrooms, particular the black girls. Am I seeing

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Speaker 3: them from what we call kind of an axiom of criminality?

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Speaker 3: And so when am I looking at black girls in

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Speaker 3: the classroom when a pen drops is the first thing

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Speaker 3: I do look over at the black students. And so

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Speaker 3: a lot of research has found I gays, when you

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Speaker 3: prime teachers to say kind of what's wrong in the classroom,

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Speaker 3: they tend to stare more at black children than they

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Speaker 3: do of children of other races. And so pausing and

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Speaker 3: thinking what was the last interaction that I had with

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Speaker 3: the black girl in my classroom? Was it related to discipline?

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Speaker 3: Was it related to talking about off task behavior? When

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Speaker 3: did I kind of celebrate and affirm them? And I

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Speaker 3: think even thinking about engaging in kind of that process

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Speaker 3: of awareness and thinking about how am I showing up

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Speaker 3: for the black girls in my classroom and also kicking

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Speaker 3: it one step further and really thinking about doing an inventory.

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Speaker 3: What does my classroom library look like? Where are black

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Speaker 3: girls represented? When are we talking about black Americans? So

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Speaker 3: some of my research has talked about in middle school,

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Speaker 3: some of the youth said when I asked them about

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Speaker 3: where do you learn about at race and where do

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Speaker 3: you learn about being African American? They said history class,

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Speaker 3: and it's around slaves and they said whips and chains.

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Speaker 3: That's the imagery that they see of black Americans in

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Speaker 3: the school environment, and so I think engaging in practices

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Speaker 3: where we're really taking an inventory of the ways that

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Speaker 3: we are treating and nurturing black girls in our classroom

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Speaker 3: as well as thinking about how we are representing black girlhood,

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Speaker 3: I think is a good first step that all teachers

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Speaker 3: can engage in, and it's something that is incredibly meaningful.

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Speaker 3: So I remember when the first time that I read

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Speaker 3: a black girl book in school, it was Warriors Don't

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Speaker 3: Cry by Melba Patillobile's and it was about school integration,

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Speaker 3: and that was so meaningful to me to read in

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Speaker 3: class and to have everybody have to read that book

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Speaker 3: and to read about a black girl's experience about how

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Speaker 3: she wants to achieve academically but how difficult it is

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Speaker 3: because of the threats that she has, and she talks

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Speaker 3: to her grandmother encourages her to be her best self.

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Speaker 3: And I just remember reading that as a required reading

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Speaker 3: was incredibly meaningful to me because that was the first

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Speaker 3: time I think that I had seen my black girlhood

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Speaker 3: reflected as something that was important to history.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that those are really.

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Speaker 3: Important, not just kind of representation in the number of

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Speaker 3: books you have, but that is one step further and

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Speaker 3: really thinking that was required reading and also being really

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Speaker 3: really careful during those interactions to shut down any instances

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Speaker 3: of bias or you know, giving people the language to

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Speaker 3: have these conversations, providing spaces for you to have but

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Speaker 3: really being careful. You also don't want to traumatize young

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Speaker 3: folks where they then have to hear about that's wrong

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Speaker 3: with Melba or these kind of stereotyped languages used in

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Speaker 3: the conversation. And so I think it's important too, but

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Speaker 3: it can be really powerful. So I just remember my

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Speaker 3: peers really talking about how brave she was and how

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Speaker 3: they didn't know that these things were happening, and that

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Speaker 3: was really I think that was meaningful for me to

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Speaker 3: see that other people were engaging in the history of

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Speaker 3: the civil rights movement from the lens of a black girl.

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Speaker 2: That was incredibly powerful when I was younger. Mm hm.

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Speaker 1: So I have so many thoughts swirling, Doctor Miams. One

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Speaker 1: of them is like, what is even rubric may not

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Speaker 1: be the best word, but like, what are we even

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Speaker 1: talking about when we are talking about black girlhood? So

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like my own experience as a little

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Speaker 1: black girl, right I'm thinking about hand games and jump

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Speaker 1: rope and like playing outside with friends and stuff, and

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Speaker 1: it feels like girlhood and just childrenhood looks very different

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Speaker 1: these days, I think, especially in the advent of technology.

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Speaker 1: And I know that there are lots of initiatives to

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Speaker 1: keep kids outside and like make sure that they are

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Speaker 1: able to kind of still be kids, but it feels

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Speaker 1: like there's a fight for that to happen, right, I

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Speaker 1: mean that so much is kind of along the backdrop

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Speaker 1: of technology. So we're talking about like black girlhood, Like,

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Speaker 1: what does that even look like in twenty twenty five?

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Speaker 3: What does black girlhood look like in twenty twenty five?

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Speaker 3: I would say the first answer is to ask black girls.

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Speaker 3: I think so often, as black adults, black women, we

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Speaker 3: sometimes either you know. I love the idea that we

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Speaker 3: don't know. I think that that is an important space

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Speaker 3: for us to come into and because I think that

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Speaker 3: when we were black girls, our experience is different than

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Speaker 3: black girls today, and so so much of my research

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Speaker 3: is asking those kind of basic questions. So tell me

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Speaker 3: about what your day is like, tell me about the

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Speaker 3: things that you love, tell me about the things that

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Speaker 3: you dislike. And I have learned so much about skincare

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Speaker 3: is bigger. But also so I think that when we

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Speaker 3: think about black girlhood, I've been thinking a lot about

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Speaker 3: how it is not just adultification bias and the fact

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Speaker 3: that we see them as older. I also think that

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Speaker 3: because of the advantage of technology, they're engaging in things

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Speaker 3: that maybe we weren't thinking about or engaging in when

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Speaker 3: we were that age. So I think that handgames are

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Speaker 3: still wonderful and still fun. But I also think that

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Speaker 3: when I talk to them, they're also talking about how

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Speaker 3: do they cope with seeing the videos of the murder

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Speaker 3: of George Floyd and thinking about young girls are kind

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Speaker 3: of contending with that, as well as seeing ads of

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Speaker 3: girls who are missing, while they're also engaging on social media,

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Speaker 3: And so I think that their childhood is different than

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Speaker 3: ours in the fact that we have this information.

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Speaker 2: Ecosystem that is reaching them.

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Speaker 3: At ages that are younger than I think when we

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Speaker 3: started really thinking about some of the things that were occurring.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that black girlhood is giggling, it's joy,

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Speaker 3: it's scissorhood, but it is also I think focusing on

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Speaker 3: learning how to cope with really difficult things that are

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Speaker 3: happening to themselves or to the world, and I think

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Speaker 3: that that's become an even bigger part of black girls' journeys.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the girls I talk to when I

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Speaker 3: ask them kind of what is it like growing up

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Speaker 3: as a black girl, we are currently asking young folks

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Speaker 3: to answer the question being a black youth today means,

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Speaker 3: and then just opening it to ask the first thing

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Speaker 3: that comes to mind, and it's difficult. We hear things

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Speaker 3: like it's tough, it's scary, it's exhaust stay, it's a lot,

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Speaker 3: and those are the first things that they are bringing up.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that what I don't want to

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Speaker 3: do is infantilize black girls and think that they're not

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Speaker 3: little women. But they also are not as insulated from

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Speaker 3: the societal ills as we may have seen in other

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Speaker 3: time periods.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember.

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Speaker 3: When I was younger, I wanted we didn't see these

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Speaker 3: viral videos of police brutality. We would watch the news,

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Speaker 3: but the news was something that you could turn off.

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Speaker 2: When you use the internet. The internet tied up with

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Speaker 2: the phone, so you weren't on the internet that long.

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Speaker 3: There were kind of safeguards that were around, and so

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Speaker 3: I think where we see a lot of Black youth

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Speaker 3: report that they are online almost constantly or most a

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Speaker 3: lot of the day, And so I think that that

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Speaker 3: you see kind of an experience where you are walking

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Speaker 3: through the world while also seeing the world move outside

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Speaker 3: of your kind of your smaller ecosystem, broader than your neighborhood, broader.

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Speaker 2: Than your school, broader than your peers.

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Speaker 3: You can see other people you've never met before, and

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Speaker 3: I think that that can be incredibly powerful. And so

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Speaker 3: I think that there are young folks who I've talked

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Speaker 3: to who actually are able to figure out who am

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Speaker 3: I and what does it mean to be me? In

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Speaker 3: a way that's even more meaningful because they see other

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Speaker 3: youth who share their interests and share their identities and

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Speaker 3: they maybe a thousand miles away because they can see

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Speaker 3: those online.

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Speaker 2: And that can be extremely validating.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, we have seen experiences of by

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Speaker 3: curious witnessing racism online can cause post traumatic stress symptoms

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Speaker 3: among young folks. They're anxious, they're frustrated, they're scared, they're

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Speaker 3: hyper vigilant. The things that they see online come with

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Speaker 3: them into their life as they're trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: what does it mean to be me? And so I

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Speaker 3: think that that's a different way to be a Black girls.

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Speaker 3: Thinking about WBS, You're always talking about the double consciousness,

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Speaker 3: I think developing a double consciousness you develop it a

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Speaker 3: little bit earlier.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a part of me that feels very feel

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Speaker 1: torn about that because you know it. Yes, like there

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Speaker 1: is no really like taking them away from technology, right

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Speaker 1: because it infiltrates so much of their lives. But it

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Speaker 1: does feel like it has really kind of stripped this

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Speaker 1: ability for kids to be kids, which I think adds

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Speaker 1: to this adultification piece that we often see impacting black girls.

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Speaker 2: I agree.

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Speaker 3: Over the summer, for the past six years, I've taught

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Speaker 3: Black Girl Power Hour and it's a fun class. I

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Speaker 3: go to Richmond, Virginia Girls for Change and I work

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Speaker 3: with the elementary but mostly middle schoolers. One of the

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Speaker 3: things we do is I work with them first to

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Speaker 3: look at books and read books steeped from Black women

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Speaker 3: and girls who have written those books and learn about

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Speaker 3: the ways that they're writing about their experience. And then

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Speaker 3: they start writing and podcasting about their own experience. And

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Speaker 3: it's given me a great window into seeing some of

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Speaker 3: the things that black girls are thinking about because I

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Speaker 3: tell them a podcast you can do it by yourself

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Speaker 3: or I can do it with somebody else, and you

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Speaker 3: can pick whatever topic you want, and I'm going to

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Speaker 3: limit it to five minutes, and I want you to

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Speaker 3: share something. You can either talk to adults or you

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Speaker 3: can talk to other black girls. And the topics they

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Speaker 3: pick are both exciting and also they make me pause,

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Speaker 3: mostly because I think a lot about the concept that

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Speaker 3: Geronimus came up with in terms of weathering and thinking

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Speaker 3: about what does it look like? Do we see weathering

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Speaker 3: occurring younger? So they will talk about one of the

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Speaker 3: things that Nadia said. She did a podcast on black

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Speaker 3: girl's childhoods, and one of the things she said is

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Speaker 3: she said, right now, black girls don't get a childhood.

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Speaker 3: Instead of worrying about where they're going to go for

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Speaker 3: a sleepover, they're worried about whether themselves and their parents

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Speaker 3: are going to come home okay. And I think that

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Speaker 3: that really talks about the shift that they see. They

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Speaker 3: know what childhood could look like and they know the

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Speaker 3: childhood that they're living. And so she says, you know,

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Speaker 3: we need to be the change. We need to start

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Speaker 3: the change. It's for us to start. And so really

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Speaker 3: thinking about we want to build conscious like folks who

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Speaker 3: are going to change the world, but also knowing that developmentally,

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Speaker 3: like they're still changing mentally, their brain is still developing,

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Speaker 3: and we want to make sure that they are given

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Speaker 3: these identity of farming experiences and nurtured and supported, while

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Speaker 3: also I think being mindful that they are starting to

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Speaker 3: deal with some really really heavy topics at younger ages.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So I chuckled

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Speaker 1: when you mentioned a skincare comment because I think that

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Speaker 1: that is what we've seen a lot of, right, Like

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Speaker 1: they're spending time like all the incipora and like here's

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Speaker 1: my makeup, get ready with me. So what other kinds

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Speaker 1: of things have they shared with you and your research about,

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Speaker 1: like how they're spending their days.

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Speaker 3: One of the things I think has been really interesting

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Speaker 3: is a lot of them are also thinking about what

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Speaker 3: does it mean to be healthy and health convers health

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Speaker 3: related conversations. So one of the students did a podcast

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Speaker 3: about being vegan and really thinking about what that looks like.

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Speaker 3: Another one talked about endorphins and exercise and how it

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Speaker 3: made them feel good.

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Speaker 2: I thought that that was so great.

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Speaker 3: They also the other things they did They talked a

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Speaker 3: lot about what does it mean to be a black

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Speaker 3: girl in a school that's predominantly white, and so many

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Speaker 3: choose to talk about that and both the difficulties as

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Speaker 3: well as what would be supportive. And so they talk

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Speaker 3: about again going back to the story of the girl

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Speaker 3: walking down the hallway, a lot of them talk about

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Speaker 3: that they walk down their own hallways and that they

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Speaker 3: are greeted not for who they are, but these stereotypes

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Speaker 3: that kind of surround black girls. And so this idea

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Speaker 3: of thinking about they're not being referred to for gifted programming,

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Speaker 3: that often feel like that their identity is being questioned

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Speaker 3: in the spaces that they occupy, and so we see

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Speaker 3: a lot about that. But also the power of teachers.

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Speaker 3: I hear a lot about, and I think when we

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Speaker 3: think about our favorite teachers, it doesn't necessarily mean that

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Speaker 3: there's a school of amazing teachers, but like, shout out

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Speaker 3: to the teachers who are creating spaces for black girls

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Speaker 3: to try and figure out what is going on with

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Speaker 3: my life. But sometimes they're just opening in between periods

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Speaker 3: and it's someone who says, oh, the teacher. She stands

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Speaker 3: outside and she waves and she says like, hey, ray Chaw,

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Speaker 3: you do and have a good day today, And that

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Speaker 3: warms my heart because she sees me. Other times, it's

441
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 3: that teacher who is teaching that class beyond the way

442
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: that it's supposed to be taught. She starts with the

443
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: textbook and then remixes with mentor texts and really ensures

444
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 3: that everyone in the classroom feels like their experiences are reflected.

445
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: And so I've heard a lot about the power of teachers.

446
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 3: Also think about the power of families, and so I

447
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: know that as a developmental psychologist, we talk about and

448
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 3: specifically thinking about adolescence, we talk about how adolescents part

449
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 3: of the development that's happening.

450
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: And I won't get too brain science you if we

451
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: want to get a brand sciency, we can.

452
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: But in thinking about there's this perception that they move

453
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: away from family and kind of shift to have a

454
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: huge importance of peers, and that while that is true,

455
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 3: they also talk about how great it is to have

456
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: their family and so talking about the kitchen table or

457
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 3: the conversations they have, And so I think that our

458
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 3: teenagers still they still need us, they still lead us

459
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 3: when they're adolescence, they still see the power of really

460
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: strong relationships with their family, and so they talk about that.

461
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 3: They talk about the relationship that they've cultivated with their

462
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: mother as being something that's really positive. But a lot

463
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 3: of them do talk about police brutality as well, and

464
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 3: a lot of kind of thinking about whether that's local

465
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 3: community area of violence that they have witnessed or heard about,

466
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 3: or just these nationally publicized viral videos of instances of

467
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 3: murders that make them feel like a sense of who

468
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: do I trust? Who are the people I turned to?

469
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: And so I think that that's really important. But also

470
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: I think the last thing I'll say is the developmentally

471
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 3: appropriate things of adolescents. So the biggest thing you're trying

472
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 3: to figure out during adolescences, who am I?

473
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: What does it mean to be me? What's going on

474
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: in my body?

475
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 3: And I think that at that point rejection can be

476
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: Peers are important, and so experiencing rejection or trying to

477
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 3: make friends.

478
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 2: Two of my young.

479
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: Podcasters wrote about how to make friends, and they did

480
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: podcasts for other black girls on making friends and not

481
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 3: being scared to reach out, And I think some of

482
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: that reminds me a bit of They also a lot

483
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: of young folks grew up in the shadows of a

484
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: pandemic where they were sitting for five years. In their

485
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 3: five years ago, they were sitting in their little offices

486
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 3: and zooming. And so when they reintegrated, we reintegrated and

487
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: put them back into classrooms. And so for young kids

488
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: who were in elementary school and then puberty started and

489
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 3: then they're jumped back into the school building, they.

490
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: Have to think about, wow, wait, I look different.

491
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: People look different because of kind of brain development, height,

492
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: and sensitive and awareness of the stuff that's going on.

493
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 2: It's a big deal.

494
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I really appreciate you bringing up the idea

495
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: of identity, right because that is like the thing that's

496
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: happening in much of you know, our childhood and so

497
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: much I think of how we figure out who we

498
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: are and like who we are in the world is

499
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: connected to media. And so there have been all these

500
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: conversations around like where are black girls showing up in media?

501
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: So we already talked a little bit about social media,

502
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: but in the larger landscape of like things we see

503
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: on TV or on streaming, it feels like there is

504
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: like a lack of black girls present. Can you talk

505
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: a little bit about that.

506
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: There's definitely a lack of black girl protagonists, because I

507
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: think if we think about distinguishing between black girls and

508
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 3: black women, we've seen some fierce strong black leads, black

509
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: women and these kind of leading roles. Really thinking about

510
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 3: black girls even fifteen and under, there are very few

511
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: current running movies or television that features black girls. I'm

512
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 3: a bit nervous about what you are talking about the disappearance,

513
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 3: and so I think when media does play a role

514
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: in thinking about these messages in the world around you,

515
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: what do I see and how does that relate to

516
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: who I am? And how do I reconcile those the

517
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: messages congruent or discord it from what I know? And

518
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: so I think when we don't see media that features

519
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: black girls, then we're really missing out on an opportunity

520
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 3: to elevate their narratives. I think it would be so

521
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: cool to have a black girl and let's say in

522
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 3: New York City, just going about her life, like her

523
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: experiences in schools, her experience making friends. But you see

524
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: and you feel how stress she is when she's going

525
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: to make that friend, or how she is really stressed

526
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: about school, and how then putting in this kind of

527
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: intervention component, how does she cope with that? Like, what

528
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,719
Speaker 3: are these like really cool coping strategies that we could

529
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: infuse into some of these narratives, So then they can say, Hey,

530
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: there is an upsurge of media that is being created

531
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: by black girls that focuses on their experiences. And so

532
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: I think that there are a good number of YouTube

533
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 3: channels where you can kind of get ready with me.

534
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: I love some a good get ready with me, but

535
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: they're doing their skincare and they're like, okay, so let's

536
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 3: talk about and it's some very heavy topic, but like

537
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 3: I'm listening because like, not only are you and then

538
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: you're you know, showing me the different type of makeup

539
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 3: while also informing on things that are what's happening in

540
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 3: your life. And so I think there are some black

541
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: girl YouTubers or thinking about TikTok as a platform for

542
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: kind of short form narratives that are happening. And so

543
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: I think when we think expansively about media, I don't

544
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: think that there is an all out disappearance of black

545
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 3: girls in kind of the media landscape, but I do

546
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: think in terms of television, it is really really important

547
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: for us to think about amplifying the narratives of black girls.

548
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that that it's something you hear

549
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: kind of even on a larger scale related to black

550
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: women's media, right, Like there are plenty of things grounded

551
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: in Okay, I'm the only one, and what is it

552
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: like to navigate racism and all of these things? But

553
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: like it's also okay to just have media that just

554
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: shows every day miss right, like just getting together with

555
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: friends or going to work or whatever. I think the

556
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: same thing for girls. Yeah, yeah, more from our conversation

557
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: after the break. So, Doctorments, it has been a while

558
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: since I have taken the developmental psyche class, so I

559
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: remember like learning about all of these theories like PHA

560
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: stuff and like ericson stuff. I'd love for you to

561
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: share with me, Like what newer research is there around,

562
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: because of course all of that was not based on

563
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: black kids, right, So what research is there now? Maybe

564
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: research you're doing or other colleagues around like developmental models

565
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: for black kids and what it does look like for

566
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: black kids to thrive.

567
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: Mmmm, so rerid so grid.

568
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: So there's the Society for Research on Child Development and

569
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 3: there's a Black caucus, and so that Black caucus has

570
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: a couple hundred strong now as well as the association.

571
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: The APA Associate has kind of really thinking about centering

572
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 3: the Black experience. And so I think that there are

573
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 3: more people now than ever, but I also think we

574
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: still have some more work to go to Really thinking

575
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: about it's important, I think to have models that are adapted,

576
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: but it's different than having models that are grounded in

577
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: black children's experience, and so thinking about this is for

578
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 3: black youth. And so I think two of the ones

579
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: that I use in my research and that I love

580
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 3: are the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory, which is

581
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: called p best and it sounds very fancy, but doctor

582
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 3: Spencer Craft of that this is a good story. I'm

583
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 3: going to put this here because it leads into why

584
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: the theory is so relevant. And so I think a

585
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 3: lot of people when we think about developmental psychologists, maybe

586
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: people who haven't taken a developmental psychology class actually probably

587
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: know some developmental psychology. So a lot of people are

588
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 3: familiar with Maymi Phipps Clark's work on the doll study,

589
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 3: and so really thinking about she asked the question on

590
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: and black children. She says, which one is the good doll?

591
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: In which one is the bad doll. And then black

592
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: children when they white and a black doll, and Black

593
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: children were likely to choose the black doll when the

594
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 3: interviewer asked who's the bad doll, and the white doll

595
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: when asked who is the good doll? And so that

596
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: served as the impetus for Brown v. Board of Education,

597
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: and the idea that's separate but equal was inherently unequal

598
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 3: and harmed full to children. And so that's kind of

599
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 3: thinking about Brownbee Board of Education was a big kind

600
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: of developmental scholarship. But I was super fascinated by that.

601
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 3: But then theory wise Spencer comes in, and she came

602
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 3: in in nineteen seventy six. This is my favorite fun fact.

603
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 3: That's why they say. But she replicated the study as

604
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: part of her dissertation, and what she found was that

605
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 3: again that black children were choosing the white doll when

606
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: asked which ones were the good doll, and that they

607
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 3: were choosing the black doll when asked which one were.

608
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: The bad doll.

609
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: But when she actually talked to them about their own

610
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 3: self esteem, black preschool children actually maintained a healthy self esteem.

611
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 3: And so basically this idea is that black children what

612
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 3: she finds is black children they can report what they

613
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 3: observe and so what they hear, but they actually don't

614
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 3: internalize it in the early years. And so then the

615
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 3: question and the reason that the phenomenological variant of ecological

616
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 3: systems theory comes into play is it's a reminder that

617
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 3: black children are not just sponges taking in all of

618
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: the messages in their lives and then just internalizing them

619
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 3: and that making that part of who they are. What

620
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 3: she's saying in the theory is that actually, due to

621
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 3: their identities, they're more likely.

622
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 2: To raise black children.

623
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 3: They're more likely to experience bias and discrimination as a

624
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 3: result of racism, but that will lead to and that

625
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 3: increases the likelihood that they'll experience stress. We know that

626
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 3: racism costs stress. When somebody when you're walking with a

627
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: plate of cookies like I was the other day, and

628
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 3: the person didn't leave the door open, then it cost

629
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: a little stress. But what she says is at that

630
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 3: point that experience of stress does not necessarily mean that

631
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 3: that's going to lead.

632
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: To negative life outcomes.

633
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 3: I am going to see that stressful thing happening, and

634
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 3: I am going to make meaning of it. So children

635
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 3: are interpreting what does this experience mean? And so when

636
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 3: they've had things like conversations with their family about being

637
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: proud to be black, as well as conversations about that

638
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: you may experience bias in the world because of the

639
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: biases that society has around black Americans. When something like

640
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 3: that happens, then they cannot say like there must be

641
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: something wrong with me, or like she didn't see me,

642
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 3: or I must not be important to hope for someone

643
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 3: to hold the door. They can say, oh God, like

644
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: what a discriminator. That is an experience of you know, racism,

645
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: Like why wouldn't they all keep that?

646
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: And so then you.

647
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: Actually are preserving your sense of who you are and

648
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: you can make meaning of the situation. And so then

649
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 3: the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is this idea

650
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: then that in that experience of stress, then you can

651
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 3: utilize coping strategies.

652
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: And so you can say that.

653
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: Person didn't open the door because they hold biases, or

654
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: that person maybe they didn't notice me.

655
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: Then kind of think about for me, it's to go

656
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: to the group chat. That's my coping.

657
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, guys, yeah, did you see this thing

658
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 3: that happened, and then they say, oh, that's so silly,

659
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 3: and then I move forward, I exhale, and I continue

660
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 3: my day, and so I don't immediately internalize that as

661
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: saying that there's something wrong with me. And so the

662
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is a good way

663
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 3: to understand children's learning and development. That they are confronted

664
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: with stress, but they're always making meaning of what that

665
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 3: stress looks like. And when the presence of social support

666
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: and some of those kind of coping assets.

667
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 2: Then they can continue to.

668
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 3: Positively develop and it doesn't necessarily kind of derail their

669
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: sense of who they are the world. And so I

670
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 3: really love the phenomenological variant ecological systems theory. And then

671
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 3: the second one is Velma Murray. She talks about ordinary

672
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 3: Black family magic, which I think is amazing, and so

673
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 3: she talks about thinking about that due to the phenomenological

674
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 3: variant of ecological systems theory. But similar to the vestiges

675
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 3: of slavery really impact us, from where we live, what

676
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: we eat, the laws that are on the books, and

677
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: so those things may increase the likelihood forward kind of

678
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: negative outcomes, such as kind of thinking about economic insecurity,

679
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: food insecurity, living in a place that you don't have

680
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 3: access to high quality healthcare. But what she talks about

681
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: is that one of the things that buffers or kind

682
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: of shields Black children from the kind of negative experiences

683
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 3: of living in kind of a racially stratified society is

684
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 3: ordinary Black family magic. And so she says things like

685
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 3: the kinship support, so like other mothering or mothering provides

686
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: great benefits, or thinking about leaning into this strong kind

687
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 3: of black sisterhood that we have. That's a form she

688
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 3: talks about spirituality, and so spirituality, whatever that looks like

689
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: and however that is defined, can buffer or shield those

690
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 3: kind of experiences. And it almost reminds me of glitter.

691
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 3: And so if you've ever used glitter before, it's like

692
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 3: I will do a project and then ten days later

693
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 3: I will still find pieces of glitter. I have showered

694
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 3: every every one of those ten days, and yet that

695
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: glitter sticks. I think a lot about ordinary Black family

696
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 3: magic and some of these coping things they stick to

697
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 3: you like glitter. And so when you're in that experience

698
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 3: where something happens, then you still are stuck with those

699
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 3: positive things that have happened. They have kind of provided

700
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: you with a boost to be able to cope with

701
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 3: whatever that thing is. And so a lot of our

702
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 3: work is thinking about what's that glitter, what's the residual

703
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 3: stuff that's helping kids thrive, And it's.

704
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: A lot of what we already know.

705
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 3: It's the things that for us are really powerful. I

706
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: think that when we take a developmental approach, though, we

707
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 3: know that how we interpret those things may be different.

708
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 3: So thinking about when we are kind of moving from

709
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: our littlest learners, who are kind of very at this point,

710
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 3: they are able to report but not internalize because a

711
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 3: lot of their kind of thoughts are a little egocentric

712
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: that are around me, like I love that they love themselves.

713
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: They love themselves.

714
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: But once we see a second period, so there's kind

715
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 3: of zero to three we know in the brain world

716
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 3: is a huge period for learning and development. The brain

717
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 3: is like amazing things are happening. As somebody who focuses

718
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 3: a lot on adolescents, we actually see a second critical

719
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 3: period for that same kind of activity. So developmentally, when

720
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: we're thinking about young adolescent brains, this is around starting

721
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 3: at ten kind of or even as early as eight.

722
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: Because we know that for black girls, puberty is the

723
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: ind across the nation, puberty is starting earlier, but for

724
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 3: black girls it's start ing much earlier, and so thinking

725
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 3: about this might be something that catalyzes ad eight at

726
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 3: the startup con But what we know is that when

727
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 3: we think about the young adolescent brain, that's a second

728
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 3: period of critical development. And so when we're thinking about

729
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 3: those experiences of stress, we are thinking about those experiences

730
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: of stress in a brain that is also developing and

731
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 3: is actually more sensitive to that stress. And so what

732
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 3: we see like the ideas of the connections between nerve cells,

733
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 3: they're proliferating, which basically means that like the connections between

734
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 3: different neurons are forming in response to new experiences best

735
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 3: and these unused neural connections they're being discarded so the

736
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 3: brain can work more efficiently, like we only have so

737
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 3: much space up here. And so we also know there's

738
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 3: this continued process of what they call kind of myelination.

739
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 3: So this communication it's almost like the covering and its

740
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: speeds of communication between neurons, and so we see continued myelination.

741
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 3: So we see the kind of malleable that the brain

742
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: is changing. And one of the ways that we see

743
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 3: a changing in adolescence in a time where I think

744
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 3: we are thinking about what would the absence of media

745
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: look like, because it's not that they're not engaging with media,

746
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 3: it's just that there's not black girls centered media, and

747
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 3: also thinking about them and their peers are also.

748
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: Kind of trying to figure it out.

749
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 3: Then without the absence of thinking about that, there's a

750
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 3: really cool Gabrielle Washday type thing for those who are

751
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,479
Speaker 3: kind of trying to figure it out. Between the eight

752
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 3: and fifteen age, they're more attuned to that social information

753
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 3: because of they're kind of cognitively and so then during adolescence,

754
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: developmentally they are more attuned to social information. They are

755
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 3: more sensitive to rewards than ever before. And so this

756
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 3: was sometimes where we kind of give adolescents a bad rap.

757
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 3: I'm here to say that I love adolescence. We don't

758
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: have to talk about them as being these risk takers,

759
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 3: but it is this idea that there are kind of

760
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: when the kind of they have an activated reward center

761
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 3: of their brain is kind of more active, and so

762
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 3: then they are becoming kind of more sensitive to social evaluation.

763
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: So they may engage in what.

764
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 3: We consider more risky here because there's more reward, like

765
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: having a really great friend feels even better, Like that's

766
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: so great, right, Like I love my friends and they

767
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 3: make me feel great and I just can't I'm like wow,

768
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 3: and they feel even greater when you're adolescents.

769
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: But at the same time.

770
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 3: Then that can be more devastating when you have things

771
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 3: like friend breakups or conflict. And so I think when

772
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 3: they're trying to figure out kind of that helps with

773
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: this overall goal of trying to figure out developmentally, like

774
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 3: who am I and what does it mean to be me?

775
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: The brain is doing something right, right, it's thinking about

776
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 3: they're more attuned to helping you figure out the answer

777
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 3: to that. But at the same time, it means those

778
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: like unsupportive contexts or the really damaging media that we

779
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 3: may see that are talking about black girls in ways

780
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 3: that don't represent their actual experience, they could be particularly

781
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 3: harmful and adolescence. But a lot of my work focuses

782
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 3: on thinking about either creating or looking at how meaningful

783
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 3: space is for this kind of identity exploration can have

784
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: really enhanced that learning that curiosity and feel really good

785
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 3: because I know, for me, it feels really good to

786
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 3: be have a really strong group of friends, or to

787
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 3: go to a program in New York City and everybody

788
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 3: that panel is so great and they're talking about things

789
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 3: and you just feel really cool. And so thinking about

790
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 3: for adolescents very similarly, like they feel that same joy

791
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: and reward. And so when we think about kind of

792
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 3: where do we go moving forward or how do we

793
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 3: support black girls and adolescents, is really thinking about if

794
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: it is high reward, then it is also high opportunity

795
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 3: that exists to really thinking about infusing narratives, whether that

796
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: be a conversation that you have with your young person

797
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 3: in the car on the way to soccer, even though they're.

798
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 2: Like, Mom, come on, I just want to get to soccer.

799
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: Those little things can stick with them. We're doing this

800
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 3: study right now where they're reading a book and the

801
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 3: book talks about it's called the light she feels inside

802
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 3: and she's going throughout the day and her light kind

803
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 3: of a glow. In the book she shows different colors

804
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 3: and afterwards, my dog student Elesha, and I are having

805
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 3: parents talk with their kids around kind of what when

806
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 3: she had a red glow? What was she feeling? Angry?

807
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: Okay, well, when was the last.

808
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: Time you felt angry like, let's have those conversations and

809
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 3: so that book and other books and engaging in those

810
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: conversations and making those meaningful across all ages chapter books. Similarly,

811
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: I think that young folks will whether we see sometimes

812
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 3: they're not going to let you know that that conversation

813
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 3: might feel like that was kind of cringey, mom, but

814
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 3: it may be the thing that's glitter later on when

815
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: they hear like, oh, we had that great conversation about

816
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 3: how our hair and our history, and they're like, okay, mom,

817
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 3: I'm just wearing my hair like this. But then when

818
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: somebody says like, why is your hair like this, then

819
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 3: they can say, well, you know, actually my hair is

820
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 3: like this, and they repeat the same thing that they

821
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 3: maybe didn't let you know that they heard and appreciated.

822
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 3: But then it's this idea of thinking about kind of

823
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 3: fortifying and surrounding adolescents, particularly black girls, with these positive

824
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 3: and affirming narratives wherever we can find them, wherever we

825
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 3: can create them, or giving them the mic to create

826
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 3: them themselves can be something that we can see that's

827
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 3: most really really helpful in adolescence as this kind of

828
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 3: rewards and that the increased sensitivity as well as we

829
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 3: see these kind of like rapid brain development, thinking about

830
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 3: like what are these brain building experiences that are supportive?

831
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: They can feel good, and they can be really helpful

832
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: for kids development.

833
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 3: So hopefully that's like a development primery.

834
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: It is very helpful to me as the mom of

835
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: an eleven year old. Also, you're making me feel much

836
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: better about my Korean genius.

837
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 2: There you go, you are building her brain.

838
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's a boy, but I'm still applying some

839
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: of these sat In Principe's right for sure, for sure.

840
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: So this has been so incredible, Doctor Williams. I really

841
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: feel like you have given us some great context and

842
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 1: some great places to kind of move forward and really

843
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: creating these affirming spaces for black girls. So tell us

844
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: where we can stay connected with you. What is your

845
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: website as well as any social media channels you'd like

846
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: to share?

847
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: So I am on Instagram, So I am at doctor

848
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: Lauren Vims. My lab is at the Home Place Lab.

849
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: Highly recommend following the lab. We have kind of emerging studies,

850
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: but we also find it really important so folks don't

851
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 3: have to read thirty pages of research articles. We try

852
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 3: to put those into six labs and thinking about how

853
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 3: to support children's development. How else take care of your

854
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: own mental health and then you can find me on

855
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 3: NYU's website as well as if you google the homeplace

856
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 3: lab then both of those will be googleable.

857
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: So thank you, ERCT.

858
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.

859
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with me today,

860
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: doctor Mims.

861
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

862
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: You are incredible, phenomenal and I am just happy to

863
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 3: be here.

864
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, thank you so much. I'm so glad

865
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: doctor Mimms was able to join me for this conversation.

866
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: To learn more about her and her work, visit the

867
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session

868
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: four one, and don't forget to text this episode to

869
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: two of your girls right now. Did you know? You

870
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: can leave us a voice note with your questions for

871
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: the podcast. If you want to suggest movies or books

872
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: for us to review, or even have thoughts about topics

873
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: you'd like to hear us discuss, drop us a message

874
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: at mimo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and

875
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: let us know what's on your mind. We might just

876
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: answer your question on the podcast. If you're looking for

877
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was

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Speaker 1: produced by at Least Ellis and Tyree Rush. Editing was

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Speaker 1: done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continuing this

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Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,