WEBVTT - Who Deserves the Death Penalty? | MiniPod

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<v Speaker 1>Native Lampod is production of iHeartRadio and partnership with Reason

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<v Speaker 1>Choice Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome home, y'all.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Native Lampod Today, this is our mini pod,

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<v Speaker 1>and we are talking about capital punishment in this country.

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<v Speaker 1>Just this week, I spent some time talking about James

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<v Speaker 1>brodn Next, who is scheduled to be scheduled to be

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<v Speaker 1>killed frankly executed in the state of Texas on Thursday,

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<v Speaker 1>just this past Thursday. And so with that, what comes

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<v Speaker 1>into question is how many people are on death row,

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<v Speaker 1>how many black people in particular are on death row

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<v Speaker 1>who are wrongfully accused, And when they do plead their cases,

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<v Speaker 1>when they do say this is not what happened, or

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<v Speaker 1>there's somebody that comes forward and comes forward and confesses

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<v Speaker 1>to the crime, like in James Broadnax's case, how does

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<v Speaker 1>the country respond. So, I, personally, y'all, I don't like

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<v Speaker 1>capital punishment. I don't believe in the death penalty. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>always surprised by the fact that the Republican Party, which

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<v Speaker 1>is supposed to be, you know, the party of like

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<v Speaker 1>the right to live, they don't only care about that

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<v Speaker 1>is when you come out your mother's womb, and then

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<v Speaker 1>after that they couldn't give a flying damp. So I'm

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<v Speaker 1>always curious to know where people fall on this, you know, spectrum.

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<v Speaker 1>I do not like the death penalty. I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>that it's up to us to take anybody's life. I

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<v Speaker 1>just don't.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm more conflicted than that.

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<v Speaker 3>I ain't gonna lie to you, and this is this

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<v Speaker 3>is one of the political issues that conflicts me the most.

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<v Speaker 3>And the reason why is that I was firmly in

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<v Speaker 3>the anti death penalty camp. And it was easy to

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<v Speaker 3>be there because you read the statistics.

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<v Speaker 2>You see how many.

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<v Speaker 3>Black folk are a wrong fleet on death penalty, on

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<v Speaker 3>death row, excuse me, you see how many people are exonerated.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think that you know, we have the right

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<v Speaker 3>to play god. You hear all of those things, and

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<v Speaker 3>then you're directly affected by it.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>And so when Dylan Ruf walked into a church in

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<v Speaker 3>June of twenty fifteen and killed my good friend and

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<v Speaker 3>eight others while they were in Bible study, he stood

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<v Speaker 3>over Polly Shepherd said I'm gonna let you live because

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<v Speaker 3>somebody has to tell the story. There was a young

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<v Speaker 3>girl in the room who literally was covered up by

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<v Speaker 3>her aunt while there was blood on the floor, and

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<v Speaker 3>you know Clym, who was my friend, who was my

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<v Speaker 3>state senator, My good friend actually let this draggly white

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<v Speaker 3>boy into the room sit beside him.

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<v Speaker 2>They prayed, and they went through there. Most people don't

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<v Speaker 2>know this.

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<v Speaker 3>They went through the entire Bible study and when they

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<v Speaker 3>bowed their head in the benediction, he took out a

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<v Speaker 3>I think it was a nine nine or forty five

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<v Speaker 3>or something like that and shot Clem in the neck

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<v Speaker 3>and went around the room and shot others while Clym's

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<v Speaker 3>wife and daughter were in the pastor's office. So, if

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<v Speaker 3>there is to be a death penalty, I think that

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<v Speaker 3>Dylan Ruth fits that metric. And so Kate Ba would

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<v Speaker 3>ask me this one day before I was signed to CNN.

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<v Speaker 3>I was just outside doing interviews everywhere. I was sweating

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<v Speaker 3>in the Charleston heat. I'm drenching through my shirt and

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<v Speaker 3>she asked me about the death penalty for Dylan Roof.

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<v Speaker 3>And it was literally the only time on camera Andrew

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<v Speaker 3>that I was like, I was like damn near stuttering,

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<v Speaker 3>like I just I could not my thoughts and my

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<v Speaker 3>words they didn't match, they weren't there, and I couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>quite grasp or understand the concept of how you know

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<v Speaker 3>if there is a death penalty, it has to be

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<v Speaker 3>for him, should there be a death penalty, And when

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<v Speaker 3>somebody takes somebody close to you, it's one thing to

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<v Speaker 3>be like if somebody ran in your house and raped

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<v Speaker 3>your daughter and killed your wife, you know you would

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<v Speaker 3>be for the death penalty then, But it's so esoterical,

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<v Speaker 3>like that's not going to happen to me. But then

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<v Speaker 3>somebody walks into church and murders your good friend, along

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<v Speaker 3>with others with like the angels of us on a

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<v Speaker 3>Wednesday night Bible study, type of angelic type of individuals,

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<v Speaker 3>the Abraham Lincoln, the better angels of our nature. It

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<v Speaker 3>literally makes you question the policy, and so I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know the answer. I also know I'm not all the

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<v Speaker 3>way there in my faith journey. He as we say downside,

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<v Speaker 3>he ain't done with me yet. Maybe I will never

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<v Speaker 3>have an answer. But this is for me, which is

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<v Speaker 3>why I'm glad we're talking about it. This is for me,

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<v Speaker 3>probably the most conflicting public policy ideal that we have

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<v Speaker 3>to go through.

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<v Speaker 4>Mmm. I feel you know, I feel you be on

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<v Speaker 4>the on the conflict because I always think man what

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<v Speaker 4>if it were something that you know, I knew. I

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<v Speaker 4>knew Clem as well, and he was a member of

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<v Speaker 4>a network that I started nationally and very active there.

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<v Speaker 4>I been in close proximity to, you know, to really heinous.

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<v Speaker 4>So it's of situations where I'm just like, man if

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<v Speaker 4>I get my hands on And then of course you're

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<v Speaker 4>reminded that's exactly why our jurisprudence system looks the way

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<v Speaker 4>it looks, so that I can't be the one who

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<v Speaker 4>decides the consequence for the person who takes whatever action.

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<v Speaker 4>And then I read some of the stories and I

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<v Speaker 4>spend a lot of time doing this during my race

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<v Speaker 4>for governor, Stories of families who thought they would feel

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<v Speaker 4>better after seeing the person who did whatever the heinous

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<v Speaker 4>crime was against their family member or loved one, and

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<v Speaker 4>basically still reflecting on this sense of emptiness, reflecting that

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<v Speaker 4>they're glad that the person no longer draws breath, but

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<v Speaker 4>also saying it didn't it doesn't bring my loved one back.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't feel I don't feel better by it. I

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<v Speaker 4>don't feel healed and foreclosed any kind of way. And

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<v Speaker 4>then you start to think, what's the best opportunity for

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<v Speaker 4>that person to come to regret and to come to

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<v Speaker 4>the place where they want to participate in a more

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<v Speaker 4>restorative process after you've done such a heinous thing, and

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<v Speaker 4>I think their ability to still have to reckon with

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<v Speaker 4>that and not so quickly being excused. And when I

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<v Speaker 4>say excused, basically you know you're taking out when you die.

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<v Speaker 4>You know there's no more growth, there's no more evolution

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<v Speaker 4>so far as I know, on this earth, by which

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<v Speaker 4>you can become a testament for other people as to

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<v Speaker 4>why this isn't the thing to do. You don't go

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<v Speaker 4>that route. And then when you look and you see

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<v Speaker 4>that black folks, black men particularly, but black folks are

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<v Speaker 4>like what make up more than half those on death

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<v Speaker 4>row and we're thirteen percent of the US population. The

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<v Speaker 4>application of that law, so we already have the hurdle

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<v Speaker 4>before a criminal justice system, but then once in it,

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<v Speaker 4>we're so we got so much stacked against us that

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<v Speaker 4>we're not given the benefit of the doubt on anything.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're literally you know, I.

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<v Speaker 4>Said this my attorneys when I was going through my case, like, well,

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<v Speaker 4>we at least we have the truth on our side.

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<v Speaker 4>That's what we're going to win on. We have the truth,

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<v Speaker 4>and one of my one of the council said, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 4>there are a lot of people who told the truth

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<v Speaker 4>who were innocent that are unfortunately behind bars.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, So the truth isn't enough.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not. The truth is not an absolute defense and

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<v Speaker 3>it should not.

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<v Speaker 4>At all, not at all and far from it where

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<v Speaker 4>you consider people who told the truth, steal were found guilty,

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<v Speaker 4>are behind bars and worse over if they find themselves

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<v Speaker 4>in a capital case with a sentence of of of

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<v Speaker 4>the death penalty.

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<v Speaker 3>So I'm pretty olfish? Am I selfish? From my policy

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<v Speaker 3>perspective or policy because.

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<v Speaker 4>One of us you are like every one of us.

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<v Speaker 4>The difference is every one of us don't have to

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<v Speaker 4>reckon with the public policy implications of how we feel

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<v Speaker 4>about the thing. Electives do and they're called to higher

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<v Speaker 4>purpose and so they do have to reckon with all

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<v Speaker 4>the dimensions of this. But no, you're no different than

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<v Speaker 4>how the rest of us I think and knee jerk

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<v Speaker 4>think about it.

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<v Speaker 1>You get conflicted, especially when it's people you care about,

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<v Speaker 1>or there are people who have traditionally been harmed. We

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<v Speaker 1>come from a long legacy of people who were lynched

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<v Speaker 1>for their entertainment, you know, what I mean. And so

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<v Speaker 1>when that when you consider what we just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>bear as markers on our DNA, and what that means

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of being a public spectacle oftentimes for things

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<v Speaker 1>that our people did not do or in some rare

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<v Speaker 1>instances it you know, they were punished for a crime,

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<v Speaker 1>and that punishment did not at all match whatever alleged

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<v Speaker 1>crime it was. And so when you think about that,

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<v Speaker 1>I think, for me, I never want to be a

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<v Speaker 1>part of doing that to someone else. But there are

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<v Speaker 1>moments where and I'll just be honest with y'all. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>my dad was in the hospital last week, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>that's why I missed you guys in Atlanta. And when

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<v Speaker 1>a cardiologist came in to talk to my dad about

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<v Speaker 1>what the path was going to be when he was discharged,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, he starts having this conversation with us in

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<v Speaker 1>a really flippant way. And you know, when you're thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about you guys, know this for your parents and for

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<v Speaker 1>your children. Now this we're talking about his actual physical heart.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't be flippant. You can't tell me that you

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<v Speaker 1>don't have time because you have thirty other patients. You

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<v Speaker 1>can't tell me that he I asked him if I

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<v Speaker 1>could record the conversation because we were going to play

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<v Speaker 1>it for a friend of the family who's a cardiologist.

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<v Speaker 1>And he told me no and stormed out the room

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<v Speaker 1>and came back. And I'm seeing red at this point.

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<v Speaker 1>So you're talking like, in those moments where you're feeling

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<v Speaker 1>the most protective of your folks, you want to harm someone, like,

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<v Speaker 1>how dare you? I just wanted to show I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>want to take him out, but I did want to,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, snatch him. So what I did do is

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<v Speaker 1>go to the peacemaker in our family, my mom. I

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<v Speaker 1>dove right in my mom's arms as light as she

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<v Speaker 1>is right now, one hundred pounds, soaking wet, and just

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<v Speaker 1>grabbed her and she hugged me. Ca I'm crying because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm livid, and I'm just saying, there are these moments where,

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<v Speaker 1>even when people make really bad decisions, it's one decision

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<v Speaker 1>that separates us from our neighbor. Should you be punished

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<v Speaker 1>to the point where you can, you're no longer even

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<v Speaker 1>given the opportunity to rehabilitate or restore or repent because

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<v Speaker 1>you made a decision in a split second, whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>cutting somebody off on the freeway or shooting a tire

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<v Speaker 1>out or worse. I just don't know that I want

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<v Speaker 1>to make that decision, you know, Like I make bad

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<v Speaker 1>decisions every day. Hopefully my good outweighs my bad, but

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<v Speaker 1>bad decisions every day, and in that moment, I really

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<v Speaker 1>was like, this dude could get choked.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's not But the death pondity is that the

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<v Speaker 2>death pnity is. And I'm no advocate for it and

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<v Speaker 2>advocate halfway advocate.

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<v Speaker 3>But you know the crazy thing is that that that

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<v Speaker 3>they always say I'm I'm a devil's advocate, and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 3>if there's one nigga that don't need an advocate.

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<v Speaker 1>It's yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>But you know, when you think about it, you have

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<v Speaker 3>a system of jurisprudence and a crazy part about it.

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<v Speaker 3>As I'm thinking this through and saying it out loud,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, people still get it wrong. Even though the

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<v Speaker 3>death penality goes through all of these iterations. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>when you're talking about the death penalty certified crime, think

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<v Speaker 3>about from arrest to investigation. Usually three years after the arrest,

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<v Speaker 3>if not longer, you go to trial, right and you

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<v Speaker 3>have to have a death penalty certified lawyer, which is

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<v Speaker 3>the upper echelne of the criminal defense bar. They have

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<v Speaker 3>to get extra training, extra legal hours. Then you have

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<v Speaker 3>exhaustive appeals, you have your own PCR, you have a

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<v Speaker 3>direct appeal that goes through different levels. Then you have

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<v Speaker 3>the ability to get clemency, which is like the last

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<v Speaker 3>ditch effort from which just means you go from death

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<v Speaker 3>penalty to life right, life without parole. So there are

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of steps there, and usually the people who

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<v Speaker 3>are on death row are not there for a crime

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<v Speaker 3>out of happenstance. It's not as if you just accidentally

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<v Speaker 3>did something or acted in a heat of as they say,

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<v Speaker 3>like if you're walking on your loved one doing it

0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.760
<v Speaker 3>doing somebody else and you kill them, that's a heat

0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:13.240
<v Speaker 3>of a passion.

0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.880
<v Speaker 4>But you admit there are other mitigators. Yeah, there are

0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:23.480
<v Speaker 4>mitigators that don't get applied to indubitably, Ye, indubitably yeah,

0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.839
<v Speaker 4>and so the so then the the other thing is

0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.040
<v Speaker 4>is that usually these appeals are based off of whatever

0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.960
<v Speaker 4>the underlying set of facts are, so the underlying.

0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:31.760
<v Speaker 2>Set effects don't change.

0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.200
<v Speaker 4>It's a process. It's sort of question that is argued

0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.080
<v Speaker 4>on appeals. So if the eyewitness was half blind, and

0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.440
<v Speaker 4>by the way, more than half eyewitnesses are wrong in

0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.360
<v Speaker 4>their accounts, are wrong in their accounts, but are yet

0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.000
<v Speaker 4>still put on stands, and so they're part of the

0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.040
<v Speaker 4>underlying set of facts that don't get questioned in the

0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.200
<v Speaker 4>in the course of a of an appeal, don't stay

0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.920
<v Speaker 4>the same. The person may have all these years of

0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.559
<v Speaker 4>appeals and options in clemency, but if they were wrong

0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.720
<v Speaker 4>at jump, they're wrong all.

0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:03.320
<v Speaker 2>The way through.

0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.240
<v Speaker 4>And that part ever, you know, really ever gets lifted right,

0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.040
<v Speaker 4>that it's really ever this case that we saw and

0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.840
<v Speaker 4>what was that Alabama where k Ivy for the first

0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.120
<v Speaker 4>time in the state's history and some number of years

0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.480
<v Speaker 4>overturned on clemency at the very end granted it. And

0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.400
<v Speaker 4>because these people had to go out there, they had

0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:26.000
<v Speaker 4>to have somebody come out and confess to having done

0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.120
<v Speaker 4>the thing. And then thanks to the updated in science,

0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.280
<v Speaker 4>you know, they were able they could not place this

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.240
<v Speaker 4>many of the thing. He had been declaring his innocence

0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.280
<v Speaker 4>the whole time. So they essentially had a whole case

0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.680
<v Speaker 4>worked up for the person who actually did it. And

0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.480
<v Speaker 4>then there's the guy who was about to be killed

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 4>for it. And they're not the same people. So it's

0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.359
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's just this overwhelming, you know, public outcry

0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.079
<v Speaker 4>that got k Ivy to do the right thing eventually.

0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.559
<v Speaker 4>But in states like Texas where the governor parades himself

0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.559
<v Speaker 4>around at the number of death penalties they can get

0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.240
<v Speaker 4>in the course of year, man, please, I wouldn't trust

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 4>the chances for the truth in that state for nothing,

0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 4>and you shouldn't.

0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 1>James brown Ax again, his cousin confessed to the crime.

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.240
<v Speaker 1>He faced an all white jury. There are all kinds

0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:19.120
<v Speaker 1>of factors that exist. There's according to the dat white jury, yeah,

0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.080
<v Speaker 1>mostly white jury. They they got rid of most of

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.000
<v Speaker 1>the black potential jurors in James Brodnax's case, and he

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 1>raised it on the Supreme Court threw out two of

0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.880
<v Speaker 1>the three appeals that he had. By the way, there's

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.400
<v Speaker 1>a report from the Death Penalty Information Center. The report

0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.360
<v Speaker 1>entitled Race and Wrongful Convictions in the United States twenty

0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.560
<v Speaker 1>twenty two, of thirty two hundred cases, black people were

0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.480
<v Speaker 1>seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted. It says

0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:53.720
<v Speaker 1>that fifty five percent of all death sentenced exgneries were black.

0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.960
<v Speaker 1>Fifty five percent of wrongful murder convictions resulting in life

0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:03.160
<v Speaker 1>imprisonment were black. Four percent of wrongful murder convictions in

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.680
<v Speaker 1>which exogneries were sentenced to imprisonment for terms of years black.

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:12.040
<v Speaker 1>And so when you think about you know, it's literally

0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.720
<v Speaker 1>despite our as you said earlier, Andrew, despite the representation,

0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.600
<v Speaker 1>the demographic representation we have in this country, it is

0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.480
<v Speaker 1>by far, it by far exceeds. And for me, that's

0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.880
<v Speaker 1>enough not to support the death penalty. That is just enough.

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.360
<v Speaker 1>And you know, we're not just wrongfully convicted of murder.

0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.120
<v Speaker 1>We're also wrongfully incarcerated often. And so I just I

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:36.520
<v Speaker 1>don't I don't trust a justice system withholding us for life.

0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.320
<v Speaker 1>I certainly don't trust the justice or the injustice system

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.600
<v Speaker 1>with taking our lives. I just don't. And you know,

0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.400
<v Speaker 1>in the moment we're talking about this, Donald Trump's Department

0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.120
<v Speaker 1>of Justice is talking about bringing back firing squads as

0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:51.880
<v Speaker 1>a form of capital punishment.

0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.000
<v Speaker 3>I agree, we already are. We already have firing squads

0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.800
<v Speaker 3>in South Carolina. They brought them back federally, brought them

0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.720
<v Speaker 3>federal That's what that's the crazy thing about it. I mean,

0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.280
<v Speaker 3>it's just yeah, it's just the wild way, and you know,

0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.680
<v Speaker 3>all the all the all the calls don't even work.

0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.000
<v Speaker 2>That's also to most of your point. Angela.

0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.840
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, I gotta go, y'all. They called me downstairs. I

0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.120
<v Speaker 1>gotta go give Vince's cake. Shout out to Vince Evans.

0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.120
<v Speaker 2>But I wish how do we get the mute Angela

0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:21.920
<v Speaker 2>like that more often?

0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:22.080
<v Speaker 3>Nick?

0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Can we.

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Phone rings?

0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, welcome home muter again turn themselves off?

0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 1>We actually have a conversation going. Maybe we can have

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.800
<v Speaker 1>a town hall on this. Seriously, I think this capital

0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:39.640
<v Speaker 1>punishment conversation at a.

0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 2>Add to the add to the notes, Add to the notes.

0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.360
<v Speaker 3>Please wherever people can sign up to to sign on

0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 3>to a petition for mister Brown next.

0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.360
<v Speaker 1>Yes, thank you, sure well. Welcome home y'all.

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 2>You know struggle.

0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.960
<v Speaker 1>After you talked about fam you not being able to

0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 1>pronounce that you stumbled Joe way all the way through

0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 1>that Supreme Court. Just opinion, Lord, have.

0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Mercy, God's I read it well?

0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.679
<v Speaker 1>No less of viewers decide.

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:37.640
<v Speaker 5>Love y'all by.

0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.840
<v Speaker 1>Native Lampard is a production of iHeart Radio and partnership

0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.400
<v Speaker 1>with Recent Choice Media. For more podcasts from our heart Radio,

0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.679
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0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:35.120
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