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Speaker 1: Native Lampod is production of iHeartRadio and partnership with Reason

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Speaker 1: Choice Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome home, y'all.

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Speaker 1: This is Native Lampod Today, this is our mini pod,

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Speaker 1: and we are talking about capital punishment in this country.

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Speaker 1: Just this week, I spent some time talking about James

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Speaker 1: brodn Next, who is scheduled to be scheduled to be

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Speaker 1: killed frankly executed in the state of Texas on Thursday,

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Speaker 1: just this past Thursday. And so with that, what comes

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Speaker 1: into question is how many people are on death row,

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Speaker 1: how many black people in particular are on death row

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Speaker 1: who are wrongfully accused, And when they do plead their cases,

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Speaker 1: when they do say this is not what happened, or

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Speaker 1: there's somebody that comes forward and comes forward and confesses

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Speaker 1: to the crime, like in James Broadnax's case, how does

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Speaker 1: the country respond. So, I, personally, y'all, I don't like

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Speaker 1: capital punishment. I don't believe in the death penalty. I'm

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Speaker 1: always surprised by the fact that the Republican Party, which

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Speaker 1: is supposed to be, you know, the party of like

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Speaker 1: the right to live, they don't only care about that

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Speaker 1: is when you come out your mother's womb, and then

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Speaker 1: after that they couldn't give a flying damp. So I'm

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Speaker 1: always curious to know where people fall on this, you know, spectrum.

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Speaker 1: I do not like the death penalty. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that it's up to us to take anybody's life. I

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Speaker 1: just don't.

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Speaker 2: I'm more conflicted than that.

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Speaker 3: I ain't gonna lie to you, and this is this

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Speaker 3: is one of the political issues that conflicts me the most.

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Speaker 3: And the reason why is that I was firmly in

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Speaker 3: the anti death penalty camp. And it was easy to

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Speaker 3: be there because you read the statistics.

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Speaker 2: You see how many.

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Speaker 3: Black folk are a wrong fleet on death penalty, on

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Speaker 3: death row, excuse me, you see how many people are exonerated.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that you know, we have the right

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Speaker 3: to play god. You hear all of those things, and

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Speaker 3: then you're directly affected by it.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And so when Dylan Ruf walked into a church in

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Speaker 3: June of twenty fifteen and killed my good friend and

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Speaker 3: eight others while they were in Bible study, he stood

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Speaker 3: over Polly Shepherd said I'm gonna let you live because

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Speaker 3: somebody has to tell the story. There was a young

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Speaker 3: girl in the room who literally was covered up by

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Speaker 3: her aunt while there was blood on the floor, and

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Speaker 3: you know Clym, who was my friend, who was my

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Speaker 3: state senator, My good friend actually let this draggly white

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Speaker 3: boy into the room sit beside him.

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Speaker 2: They prayed, and they went through there. Most people don't

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Speaker 2: know this.

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Speaker 3: They went through the entire Bible study and when they

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Speaker 3: bowed their head in the benediction, he took out a

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Speaker 3: I think it was a nine nine or forty five

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Speaker 3: or something like that and shot Clem in the neck

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Speaker 3: and went around the room and shot others while Clym's

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Speaker 3: wife and daughter were in the pastor's office. So, if

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Speaker 3: there is to be a death penalty, I think that

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Speaker 3: Dylan Ruth fits that metric. And so Kate Ba would

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Speaker 3: ask me this one day before I was signed to CNN.

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Speaker 3: I was just outside doing interviews everywhere. I was sweating

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Speaker 3: in the Charleston heat. I'm drenching through my shirt and

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Speaker 3: she asked me about the death penalty for Dylan Roof.

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Speaker 3: And it was literally the only time on camera Andrew

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Speaker 3: that I was like, I was like damn near stuttering,

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Speaker 3: like I just I could not my thoughts and my

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Speaker 3: words they didn't match, they weren't there, and I couldn't

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Speaker 3: quite grasp or understand the concept of how you know

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Speaker 3: if there is a death penalty, it has to be

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Speaker 3: for him, should there be a death penalty, And when

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Speaker 3: somebody takes somebody close to you, it's one thing to

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Speaker 3: be like if somebody ran in your house and raped

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Speaker 3: your daughter and killed your wife, you know you would

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Speaker 3: be for the death penalty then, But it's so esoterical,

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Speaker 3: like that's not going to happen to me. But then

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Speaker 3: somebody walks into church and murders your good friend, along

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Speaker 3: with others with like the angels of us on a

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Speaker 3: Wednesday night Bible study, type of angelic type of individuals,

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Speaker 3: the Abraham Lincoln, the better angels of our nature. It

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Speaker 3: literally makes you question the policy, and so I don't

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Speaker 3: know the answer. I also know I'm not all the

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Speaker 3: way there in my faith journey. He as we say downside,

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Speaker 3: he ain't done with me yet. Maybe I will never

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Speaker 3: have an answer. But this is for me, which is

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Speaker 3: why I'm glad we're talking about it. This is for me,

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Speaker 3: probably the most conflicting public policy ideal that we have

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Speaker 3: to go through.

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Speaker 4: Mmm. I feel you know, I feel you be on

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Speaker 4: the on the conflict because I always think man what

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Speaker 4: if it were something that you know, I knew. I

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Speaker 4: knew Clem as well, and he was a member of

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Speaker 4: a network that I started nationally and very active there.

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Speaker 4: I been in close proximity to, you know, to really heinous.

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Speaker 4: So it's of situations where I'm just like, man if

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Speaker 4: I get my hands on And then of course you're

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Speaker 4: reminded that's exactly why our jurisprudence system looks the way

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Speaker 4: it looks, so that I can't be the one who

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Speaker 4: decides the consequence for the person who takes whatever action.

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Speaker 4: And then I read some of the stories and I

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Speaker 4: spend a lot of time doing this during my race

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Speaker 4: for governor, Stories of families who thought they would feel

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Speaker 4: better after seeing the person who did whatever the heinous

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Speaker 4: crime was against their family member or loved one, and

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Speaker 4: basically still reflecting on this sense of emptiness, reflecting that

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Speaker 4: they're glad that the person no longer draws breath, but

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Speaker 4: also saying it didn't it doesn't bring my loved one back.

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Speaker 4: I don't feel I don't feel better by it. I

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Speaker 4: don't feel healed and foreclosed any kind of way. And

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Speaker 4: then you start to think, what's the best opportunity for

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Speaker 4: that person to come to regret and to come to

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Speaker 4: the place where they want to participate in a more

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Speaker 4: restorative process after you've done such a heinous thing, and

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Speaker 4: I think their ability to still have to reckon with

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Speaker 4: that and not so quickly being excused. And when I

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Speaker 4: say excused, basically you know you're taking out when you die.

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Speaker 4: You know there's no more growth, there's no more evolution

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Speaker 4: so far as I know, on this earth, by which

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Speaker 4: you can become a testament for other people as to

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Speaker 4: why this isn't the thing to do. You don't go

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Speaker 4: that route. And then when you look and you see

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Speaker 4: that black folks, black men particularly, but black folks are

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Speaker 4: like what make up more than half those on death

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Speaker 4: row and we're thirteen percent of the US population. The

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Speaker 4: application of that law, so we already have the hurdle

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Speaker 4: before a criminal justice system, but then once in it,

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Speaker 4: we're so we got so much stacked against us that

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Speaker 4: we're not given the benefit of the doubt on anything.

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Speaker 2: So we're literally you know, I.

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Speaker 4: Said this my attorneys when I was going through my case, like, well,

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Speaker 4: we at least we have the truth on our side.

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Speaker 4: That's what we're going to win on. We have the truth,

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Speaker 4: and one of my one of the council said, unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: there are a lot of people who told the truth

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Speaker 4: who were innocent that are unfortunately behind bars.

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Speaker 2: Correct, So the truth isn't enough.

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Speaker 3: It's not. The truth is not an absolute defense and

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Speaker 3: it should not.

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Speaker 4: At all, not at all and far from it where

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Speaker 4: you consider people who told the truth, steal were found guilty,

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Speaker 4: are behind bars and worse over if they find themselves

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Speaker 4: in a capital case with a sentence of of of

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Speaker 4: the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: So I'm pretty olfish? Am I selfish? From my policy

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Speaker 3: perspective or policy because.

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Speaker 4: One of us you are like every one of us.

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Speaker 4: The difference is every one of us don't have to

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Speaker 4: reckon with the public policy implications of how we feel

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Speaker 4: about the thing. Electives do and they're called to higher

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Speaker 4: purpose and so they do have to reckon with all

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Speaker 4: the dimensions of this. But no, you're no different than

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Speaker 4: how the rest of us I think and knee jerk

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Speaker 4: think about it.

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Speaker 1: You get conflicted, especially when it's people you care about,

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Speaker 1: or there are people who have traditionally been harmed. We

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Speaker 1: come from a long legacy of people who were lynched

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Speaker 1: for their entertainment, you know, what I mean. And so

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Speaker 1: when that when you consider what we just you know,

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Speaker 1: bear as markers on our DNA, and what that means

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Speaker 1: in terms of being a public spectacle oftentimes for things

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Speaker 1: that our people did not do or in some rare

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Speaker 1: instances it you know, they were punished for a crime,

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Speaker 1: and that punishment did not at all match whatever alleged

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Speaker 1: crime it was. And so when you think about that,

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Speaker 1: I think, for me, I never want to be a

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Speaker 1: part of doing that to someone else. But there are

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Speaker 1: moments where and I'll just be honest with y'all. You know,

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Speaker 1: my dad was in the hospital last week, of course,

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Speaker 1: that's why I missed you guys in Atlanta. And when

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Speaker 1: a cardiologist came in to talk to my dad about

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Speaker 1: what the path was going to be when he was discharged,

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Speaker 1: you know, he starts having this conversation with us in

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Speaker 1: a really flippant way. And you know, when you're thinking

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Speaker 1: about you guys, know this for your parents and for

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Speaker 1: your children. Now this we're talking about his actual physical heart.

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Speaker 1: You can't be flippant. You can't tell me that you

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Speaker 1: don't have time because you have thirty other patients. You

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Speaker 1: can't tell me that he I asked him if I

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Speaker 1: could record the conversation because we were going to play

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Speaker 1: it for a friend of the family who's a cardiologist.

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Speaker 1: And he told me no and stormed out the room

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Speaker 1: and came back. And I'm seeing red at this point.

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Speaker 1: So you're talking like, in those moments where you're feeling

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Speaker 1: the most protective of your folks, you want to harm someone, like,

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Speaker 1: how dare you? I just wanted to show I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to take him out, but I did want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, snatch him. So what I did do is

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Speaker 1: go to the peacemaker in our family, my mom. I

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Speaker 1: dove right in my mom's arms as light as she

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Speaker 1: is right now, one hundred pounds, soaking wet, and just

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Speaker 1: grabbed her and she hugged me. Ca I'm crying because

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Speaker 1: I'm livid, and I'm just saying, there are these moments where,

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Speaker 1: even when people make really bad decisions, it's one decision

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Speaker 1: that separates us from our neighbor. Should you be punished

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Speaker 1: to the point where you can, you're no longer even

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Speaker 1: given the opportunity to rehabilitate or restore or repent because

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Speaker 1: you made a decision in a split second, whether it's

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Speaker 1: cutting somebody off on the freeway or shooting a tire

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Speaker 1: out or worse. I just don't know that I want

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Speaker 1: to make that decision, you know, Like I make bad

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Speaker 1: decisions every day. Hopefully my good outweighs my bad, but

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Speaker 1: bad decisions every day, and in that moment, I really

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Speaker 1: was like, this dude could get choked.

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Speaker 2: But that's not But the death pondity is that the

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Speaker 2: death pnity is. And I'm no advocate for it and

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Speaker 2: advocate halfway advocate.

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Speaker 3: But you know the crazy thing is that that that

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Speaker 3: they always say I'm I'm a devil's advocate, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: if there's one nigga that don't need an advocate.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah.

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Speaker 3: But you know, when you think about it, you have

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Speaker 3: a system of jurisprudence and a crazy part about it.

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Speaker 3: As I'm thinking this through and saying it out loud,

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Speaker 3: you know, people still get it wrong. Even though the

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Speaker 3: death penality goes through all of these iterations. I mean,

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Speaker 3: when you're talking about the death penalty certified crime, think

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Speaker 3: about from arrest to investigation. Usually three years after the arrest,

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Speaker 3: if not longer, you go to trial, right and you

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Speaker 3: have to have a death penalty certified lawyer, which is

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Speaker 3: the upper echelne of the criminal defense bar. They have

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Speaker 3: to get extra training, extra legal hours. Then you have

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Speaker 3: exhaustive appeals, you have your own PCR, you have a

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Speaker 3: direct appeal that goes through different levels. Then you have

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Speaker 3: the ability to get clemency, which is like the last

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Speaker 3: ditch effort from which just means you go from death

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Speaker 3: penalty to life right, life without parole. So there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of steps there, and usually the people who

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Speaker 3: are on death row are not there for a crime

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Speaker 3: out of happenstance. It's not as if you just accidentally

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Speaker 3: did something or acted in a heat of as they say,

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Speaker 3: like if you're walking on your loved one doing it

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Speaker 3: doing somebody else and you kill them, that's a heat

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Speaker 3: of a passion.

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Speaker 4: But you admit there are other mitigators. Yeah, there are

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Speaker 4: mitigators that don't get applied to indubitably, Ye, indubitably yeah,

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Speaker 4: and so the so then the the other thing is

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Speaker 4: is that usually these appeals are based off of whatever

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Speaker 4: the underlying set of facts are, so the underlying.

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Speaker 2: Set effects don't change.

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Speaker 4: It's a process. It's sort of question that is argued

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Speaker 4: on appeals. So if the eyewitness was half blind, and

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Speaker 4: by the way, more than half eyewitnesses are wrong in

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Speaker 4: their accounts, are wrong in their accounts, but are yet

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Speaker 4: still put on stands, and so they're part of the

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Speaker 4: underlying set of facts that don't get questioned in the

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Speaker 4: in the course of a of an appeal, don't stay

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Speaker 4: the same. The person may have all these years of

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Speaker 4: appeals and options in clemency, but if they were wrong

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Speaker 4: at jump, they're wrong all.

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Speaker 2: The way through.

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Speaker 4: And that part ever, you know, really ever gets lifted right,

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Speaker 4: that it's really ever this case that we saw and

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Speaker 4: what was that Alabama where k Ivy for the first

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Speaker 4: time in the state's history and some number of years

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Speaker 4: overturned on clemency at the very end granted it. And

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Speaker 4: because these people had to go out there, they had

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Speaker 4: to have somebody come out and confess to having done

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Speaker 4: the thing. And then thanks to the updated in science,

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Speaker 4: you know, they were able they could not place this

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Speaker 4: many of the thing. He had been declaring his innocence

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Speaker 4: the whole time. So they essentially had a whole case

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Speaker 4: worked up for the person who actually did it. And

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Speaker 4: then there's the guy who was about to be killed

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Speaker 4: for it. And they're not the same people. So it's

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's just this overwhelming, you know, public outcry

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Speaker 4: that got k Ivy to do the right thing eventually.

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Speaker 4: But in states like Texas where the governor parades himself

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Speaker 4: around at the number of death penalties they can get

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Speaker 4: in the course of year, man, please, I wouldn't trust

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Speaker 4: the chances for the truth in that state for nothing,

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Speaker 4: and you shouldn't.

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Speaker 1: James brown Ax again, his cousin confessed to the crime.

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Speaker 1: He faced an all white jury. There are all kinds

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Speaker 1: of factors that exist. There's according to the dat white jury, yeah,

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Speaker 1: mostly white jury. They they got rid of most of

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Speaker 1: the black potential jurors in James Brodnax's case, and he

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Speaker 1: raised it on the Supreme Court threw out two of

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Speaker 1: the three appeals that he had. By the way, there's

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Speaker 1: a report from the Death Penalty Information Center. The report

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Speaker 1: entitled Race and Wrongful Convictions in the United States twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two, of thirty two hundred cases, black people were

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Speaker 1: seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted. It says

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Speaker 1: that fifty five percent of all death sentenced exgneries were black.

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Speaker 1: Fifty five percent of wrongful murder convictions resulting in life

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Speaker 1: imprisonment were black. Four percent of wrongful murder convictions in

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Speaker 1: which exogneries were sentenced to imprisonment for terms of years black.

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Speaker 1: And so when you think about you know, it's literally

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Speaker 1: despite our as you said earlier, Andrew, despite the representation,

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Speaker 1: the demographic representation we have in this country, it is

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Speaker 1: by far, it by far exceeds. And for me, that's

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Speaker 1: enough not to support the death penalty. That is just enough.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're not just wrongfully convicted of murder.

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Speaker 1: We're also wrongfully incarcerated often. And so I just I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't trust a justice system withholding us for life.

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Speaker 1: I certainly don't trust the justice or the injustice system

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Speaker 1: with taking our lives. I just don't. And you know,

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Speaker 1: in the moment we're talking about this, Donald Trump's Department

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Speaker 1: of Justice is talking about bringing back firing squads as

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Speaker 1: a form of capital punishment.

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Speaker 3: I agree, we already are. We already have firing squads

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Speaker 3: in South Carolina. They brought them back federally, brought them

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Speaker 3: federal That's what that's the crazy thing about it. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's just yeah, it's just the wild way, and you know,

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Speaker 3: all the all the all the calls don't even work.

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Speaker 2: That's also to most of your point. Angela.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, I gotta go, y'all. They called me downstairs. I

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Speaker 1: gotta go give Vince's cake. Shout out to Vince Evans.

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Speaker 2: But I wish how do we get the mute Angela

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Speaker 2: like that more often?

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Speaker 3: Nick?

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Speaker 2: Can we.

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Speaker 1: Phone rings?

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Speaker 2: You know, welcome home muter again turn themselves off?

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Speaker 1: We actually have a conversation going. Maybe we can have

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Speaker 1: a town hall on this. Seriously, I think this capital

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Speaker 1: punishment conversation at a.

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Speaker 2: Add to the add to the notes, Add to the notes.

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Speaker 3: Please wherever people can sign up to to sign on

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Speaker 3: to a petition for mister Brown next.

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Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, sure well. Welcome home y'all.

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Speaker 2: You know struggle.

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Speaker 1: After you talked about fam you not being able to

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Speaker 1: pronounce that you stumbled Joe way all the way through

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Speaker 1: that Supreme Court. Just opinion, Lord, have.

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Speaker 2: Mercy, God's I read it well?

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Speaker 1: No less of viewers decide.

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Speaker 5: Love y'all by.

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Speaker 1: Native Lampard is a production of iHeart Radio and partnership

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Speaker 1: with Recent Choice Media. For more podcasts from our heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,