Speaker 1: Even I grew up in South Texas, but in school
Speaker 1: we're never taught that the underground railroad had a southern route,
Speaker 1: or that June teenth has been celebrated in Nacimiento, a
Speaker 1: community in northern Mexico, since eighteen sixty five. In this
Speaker 1: special episode of Hungry for History, we'll talk about freedom, fighting,
Speaker 1: June teenth, and a cookbook. We'll welcome doctor Madia Hammock,
Speaker 1: a scholar and historian whose work bridges histories of liberation
Speaker 1: and abolition, back to the show, along with Wendy Goodlow
Speaker 1: and Corina too Raba of the Seminole Indian Scout Cemetery Association.
Speaker 2: My name is Eva Longoria and I am mate Remezrajon,
Speaker 2: and welcome to Hungry for History, a podcast that explores
Speaker 2: our past and present through food.
Speaker 1: On every episode, we'll talk about the history of some
Speaker 1: of our favorite dishes, ingredients, and beverages from our culture.
Speaker 2: So make yourself at home. I ween Brecho. Like we've
Speaker 2: talked about many times here on the show, a cook
Speaker 2: book can tell us so much about a community, and
Speaker 2: might think you brought a new one that you wanted
Speaker 2: to share.
Speaker 1: I came across the history that had never heard before.
Speaker 1: And this is a story of the Black Seminoles and
Speaker 1: their Mexican descendants, the Moscogos, and this really interesting cookbook
Speaker 1: that Restario Moscowa so Guahilas is one of the states
Speaker 1: that borders Texas.
Speaker 2: And so who are the Black Seminoles. I've never heard
Speaker 2: of the Black Seminoles because is it the Seminoles like
Speaker 2: the Seminole Indians? But these are the Black Seminoles. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: they're related. So the Seminoles are the descendants of many
Speaker 2: different Native Americans who lived in Florida and Georgia and Alabama,
Speaker 2: parts of South Carolina and Tennessee and Mississippi for centuries. Right,
Speaker 2: these are the Native.
Speaker 1: Americans that lived in these areas for centuries and centuries,
Speaker 1: and they lived as different tribes. When the Spaniards, who
Speaker 1: were who the Spaniards were the first Europeans to enter
Speaker 1: North America arrived in the early fifteen hundreds. These groups
Speaker 1: of people share the same linguistic family and shared many
Speaker 1: of the same belief systems, and so over the last
Speaker 1: I don't know, five hundred years or so, the survivors
Speaker 1: of all of these tribes grouped together in Florida, around
Speaker 1: a core of sin Marones, which were refugees from the
Speaker 1: Spanish Florida missions, and they are called Seminoles. The first
Speaker 1: English speakers, the first Anglos you know to this area
Speaker 1: in Florida in the seventeen seventies called them seminoles. And
Speaker 1: the word comes from the Spanish word cimron, which means
Speaker 1: wild one. And so the black Seminoles or a group
Speaker 1: of people with African and Native American ancestry that were
Speaker 1: made up of free Africans, escape slaves and Seminole people.
Speaker 2: So moscovo, which is a Spanish word for descendants of
Speaker 2: black Seminoles who escaped the brutality of the Antebellum and
Speaker 2: then they made their way into Mexico through this little
Speaker 2: known southern route of the underground railroad, which was across
Speaker 2: our beloved Rio Grande, and they created free communities in
Speaker 2: northern Mexico. And this word Muscogo, it comes from Muscogi,
Speaker 2: which was a language spoken by Seminoles and creeks in Florida.
Speaker 2: And this is the crazy part that the Mexican government
Speaker 2: gave them land and refuge in the state of Goahwila.
Speaker 2: It's so crazy, I mean, that's amazing. It is.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. So moscows are descendants of freedom fighters and
Speaker 1: they have African, Mexican and indigenous roots. We had the
Speaker 1: opportunities to speak with doctor Maria Stramac, a Mexican scholar
Speaker 1: of Black liberation in North America. She gives us details
Speaker 1: on what the journey across the Rio Grande River would
Speaker 1: have been like and argues that every enslaved person was
Speaker 1: a freedom fighter.
Speaker 3: My name is Marito sar Hammock, and I am a
Speaker 3: scholar of a Mexican scholar of Black liberation in North America,
Speaker 3: and I am trying to recover or help recover what
Speaker 3: I argue is the experiences but also the legacies, the
Speaker 3: intellectual and physical legacies of black women who engineered channels
Speaker 3: of liberation to Mexican spaces. I always argue that everyone,
Speaker 3: every person in slave, was a freedom fighter. Freedom seeking
Speaker 3: implies something cyclical. Someone who's seeking for something may may
Speaker 3: not find it. But people who were enslave were always navigating,
Speaker 3: and if not navigating or finding, they were creating ways
Speaker 3: to be free. At the very many levels that freedom
Speaker 3: materialized for them in Mexico or the US, or across
Speaker 3: the borderlands. So freedom seekers were freedom fighters as well,
Speaker 3: and many of them did claim their freedom on Mexican soil.
Speaker 3: So they were bringing stuff, they were planning their journeys,
Speaker 3: they were tracing actually where they were going through who
Speaker 3: they may encounter. And I encounter records where they are
Speaker 3: bringing ham, they're bringing bacon, they're bringing fruits, peaches, so
Speaker 3: they can sell them along the way if they need money,
Speaker 3: or they can barter for safe passage. And so I
Speaker 3: do find that through the records. But also other records
Speaker 3: that I found once they crossed the river into Mexico.
Speaker 3: So there is a record of a black Seminole woman
Speaker 3: describing during the WPI narratives they were into a lot
Speaker 3: of people, elderly people were interviewed and she describes crossing
Speaker 3: the river with seven hundred other people. The women and
Speaker 3: children cross first and the men cross after, and so
Speaker 3: she describes that though the feeling, her feeling as she
Speaker 3: was crossing on these flatboats across the Rio Grande, and
Speaker 3: that you know, she kept hearing the children cry, and
Speaker 3: it's a very powerful story. But once on Mexican soul,
Speaker 3: you also get records where people were, you know, they
Speaker 3: made it there and they had no food, and so
Speaker 3: so there is one record that I found were the
Speaker 3: people in the town I think it was mont Globa,
Speaker 3: or it must have been the town of Gerretro, one
Speaker 3: of those two, when they arrived there. There's a group
Speaker 3: of people that arrived and they didn't have any food.
Speaker 3: They hadn't eaten in a few days, and so the
Speaker 3: townspeople collected money to buy them food and buy them
Speaker 3: shoes because they were also bare food, and give them
Speaker 3: money to keep going because they didn't want to stay
Speaker 3: in that town. They wanted to keep going further as
Speaker 3: far away as they could so that slave hunters wouldn't
Speaker 3: go and kidnap them, because that was also something that
Speaker 3: was happening.
Speaker 1: We always talk about how everything is intermixed, all of
Speaker 1: these cultures that we all exist, you know, together, and
Speaker 1: this cookbook is super interesting in that sense. It includes
Speaker 1: food really commonly associated with Americans, how things like potato
Speaker 1: salad and pasta salad, also typical Northern Mexican foods like
Speaker 1: gaviriito and machacado, but lots of stews, lots of galdos,
Speaker 1: lots of off The cookbook has three different kinds of
Speaker 1: menudo there's chicharron like porkskin ti taron but also ti
Speaker 1: taron de viceras, so internal organs of pigs and goats
Speaker 1: and they and they make ti tarones out of these organs,
Speaker 1: so they use every single part of the animal.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 1: So they use a wooden mortar and pestle, so instead
Speaker 1: of the typical volcanic stone you know morcagete that we're
Speaker 1: familiar with, they use like a big one, like it's
Speaker 1: a huge wooden mortar that's carved from a trunk of
Speaker 1: the tree, and then a really long pestle that's almost
Speaker 1: like a baseball bat, and that's what they use as
Speaker 1: a morteo. So they break down corn.
Speaker 2: Seems very difficult because it's the volcanic stone that really
Speaker 2: gets you to grind stuff. I don't know how they
Speaker 2: could have done that with this wood wood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are women that have donated that have shared
Speaker 1: their recipes. But they're two really interesting dishes is that
Speaker 1: I've never heard of, I don't know, something called which
Speaker 1: is this white corn at torle and te boon, which
Speaker 1: is sweet potato bread. And these are traditional foods.
Speaker 2: From the Afro Seminole culture.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the words themselves come from this Afro Seminole language.
Speaker 2: But also sweet potato bread is not I've ever seen
Speaker 2: that in Mexico either potato bread. I mean it would
Speaker 2: be camote and I've never heard of me either.
Speaker 1: No, it's like sweet potato. They mix it with larred
Speaker 1: with sugar, with clove, and with wheat flour. But they
Speaker 1: also they make it in a metate.
Speaker 2: After the break, we hear from Windy Goodlow and Corina
Speaker 2: Torobal Harrington of the Seminole Indian Scout Cemetery Association.
Speaker 1: We've got so much more, so don't go anywhere. Windy
Speaker 1: god of the Seminole Indian Scouts Cemetery Association talks about
Speaker 1: how Africans who were brought to America enslaved possessed a
Speaker 1: wide range of engineering and scientific skills.
Speaker 4: My name is Wendy Goodlow. I am the secretary of
Speaker 4: the Seminal Indian Scouts Cemetery Association. Something that I wish
Speaker 4: was taught though that within slavery there were certain people
Speaker 4: that were targeted for their skills. People from West Africa,
Speaker 4: specifically Sierra Leona surrounding countries were rice growers, and they
Speaker 4: weren't just simply growing rice. They were engineering rice. They
Speaker 4: were figuring out conditions. If the conditions weren't good, they
Speaker 4: would figure out how to make the conditions better so
Speaker 4: if the rice would grow, and you know, their future
Speaker 4: colonizers and slavers learned this, and so they specifically targeted
Speaker 4: people from sier Leone to be brought to the low
Speaker 4: country because the conditions were similar and they wanted rice
Speaker 4: to be grown there. So these people were targeted, and
Speaker 4: they had figured out methods to filter salt water in
Speaker 4: order to make it, you know, where rest would grow.
Speaker 4: But I think that's amazing. I feel like if I
Speaker 4: had learned that when I was a kid, my perspective
Speaker 4: on what slavery was would have been so different because
Speaker 4: we're given this picture of what an enslaved person was,
Speaker 4: and it just blew my mind because these were highly
Speaker 4: intelligent people, engineers, scientists, you know, not just you know,
Speaker 4: someone's property.
Speaker 2: For the National Geographic hundreds of enslaved people fled from
Speaker 2: southern plantations to live among the seminoles in Florida Territory
Speaker 2: during mid lighteen eighteenth century. Spain granted freedom to enslaved
Speaker 2: people who escaped to Florida under their rule but the
Speaker 2: US did not recognize this agreement.
Speaker 4: The Black Seminoles descend from these people. Primarily, these people
Speaker 4: who were taken from West Africa brought to the Low Country,
Speaker 4: which is South Carolina, into Georgia. Instead of going north
Speaker 4: as we were taught in school, they went south into
Speaker 4: what was at that time Spanish territory. The first earliest
Speaker 4: records of people running into Florida for their freedom was
Speaker 4: around sixteen eighty seven. It was about sixteen ninety three
Speaker 4: when the King of Spain issued an ed it saying,
Speaker 4: you know, if you want freedom, come to Florida and
Speaker 4: help us protect Florida. And what we'll do is we'll
Speaker 4: give you arms, and all you have to do is
Speaker 4: convert to Catholicism. And then after a while they didn't
Speaker 4: even require them to convert because it was more important
Speaker 4: for their to be bodies. The Seminoles are essentially creaks.
Speaker 4: What it happened was there was a schism happening between
Speaker 4: two groups of Creeks, which are known as the Upper
Speaker 4: and Lower Creeks. The Lower Creeks were taking on more
Speaker 4: Eurocentric sensibilities, and one of those was slavery. They were
Speaker 4: starting to enslave people the upper Creeks didn't agree with this,
Speaker 4: so there was a fight. The lower Creeks pushed down
Speaker 4: into Florida. So now we have that influx of Creeks
Speaker 4: coming in and because of them running away from their group,
Speaker 4: there was this word that came about. So linguists have
Speaker 4: said that the word for seminole comes from the Spanish cimarron,
Speaker 4: and it was also applied to the Maroons. So from
Speaker 4: this one word, it was a Spanish word that was
Speaker 4: broken up and used in sort of bastardized into the
Speaker 4: Creek language to become civiynol. And then it was also
Speaker 4: used to describe people who had run away who were
Speaker 4: of African descent, and that's room. So essentially both groups
Speaker 4: were seen as runaways and once they gain into Florida,
Speaker 4: they learned to coexist with each other, and very soon
Speaker 4: after that they will be fighting what's known as the
Speaker 4: Three Seminal Wars. So the most significant war is the
Speaker 4: Second Seminal War. And during that war, the United States
Speaker 4: sees that they are fighting a very formidable opponent, and
Speaker 4: General Thomas Jessup says, this is not an Indian war,
Speaker 4: this is a Negro war because of how fiercely the
Speaker 4: Black Seminoles and other Maroons, because there were other Maroons
Speaker 4: who didn't necessarily join the Black Seminoles because of how
Speaker 4: fiercely they fought, and he realized that he needed to
Speaker 4: divide and conquer. So this war took place between eighteen
Speaker 4: thirty five and eighteen forty two, so we've skipped, you know,
Speaker 4: a lot ahead in history. But he realized that if
Speaker 4: he didn't come to some kind of peace agreement with
Speaker 4: the Black Seminoles, that the war would never end. So
Speaker 4: he negotiated with three of the Black Seminole leaders, one
Speaker 4: of them was John Horse, and they eventually agreed that
Speaker 4: if they would be promised freedom when they got to Oklahoma,
Speaker 4: that they would go. But the problem is, and you know,
Speaker 4: it's a sad refrain within the Black Seminoles story, that
Speaker 4: they will honor whatever promise they have to make, but
Speaker 4: the entity making the promise to them doesn't ever honor
Speaker 4: their side of the agreement. So the Black Siminals agree
Speaker 4: to surrender, but there is a third semental war that
Speaker 4: happens with the remaining people there in Florida, and they
Speaker 4: continue to fight and eventually, you know, won their freedom.
Speaker 4: They are unconquered, and that's the Seminole trid that we
Speaker 4: know today. So there was a group that stayed in Florida,
Speaker 4: and in eighteen twenty one there was actually a group
Speaker 4: that went into the Bahamas. So this there was a
Speaker 4: separate group that went straight into the Bahamas. So there's
Speaker 4: a group of black seminals in the Bahamas as well.
Speaker 4: So this group led by John Horset, they'd go into Oklahoma,
Speaker 4: and as soon as they get there, they realized that
Speaker 4: they were promised wasn't going to happen. They were first
Speaker 4: of all, they were rice growers. They grew corn, they
Speaker 4: had access to wild game. You know, Florida was its
Speaker 4: own paradise for them. Oklahoma was a dust bowl. It
Speaker 4: was barren. You couldn't grow anything. You had to rely
Speaker 4: on rations from the government to eat and they weren't
Speaker 4: used to that. So already just their food ways had
Speaker 4: completely changed. On top of that, there were slave catchers
Speaker 4: that were in the territory that were a constant threat.
Speaker 4: On top of that, there were the creeks who they
Speaker 4: didn't get along with all those decades ago, who were
Speaker 4: their neighbors now. So the conditions were not favorable for them.
Speaker 4: This was not going to be a place that they
Speaker 4: could call home. So while some of them stayed, there
Speaker 4: was a group in eighteen forty nine that decided the
Speaker 4: best course of action if they wanted to survive was
Speaker 4: to leave Oklahoma and take a seven hundred mile year
Speaker 4: long trip our journey trek into Mexico. And that's what
Speaker 4: they did. It took them a whole year, and the
Speaker 4: group was led again by John Horst, and this time
Speaker 4: by Wildcat, who was the leader of the Seminoles. So
Speaker 4: there was a group of Cinnamols and black Seminoles that
Speaker 4: went and they arrived in Mexico and they presented themselves
Speaker 4: to the Mexican government. Their exploits in Florida had already
Speaker 4: preceded them, so they would become what was essentially Mexico's
Speaker 4: first border patrol. They would help to keep the border safe.
Speaker 4: And Mexico is actually the only government or entity that
Speaker 4: actually kept their promise. In exchange for their service, they
Speaker 4: were given land that they still own today, which is Nacimento.
Speaker 1: So Mexico had officially abolished slavery by this time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty nine, and in eighteen fifty seven, Mexico
Speaker 1: amended its constitution to reflect that all people are born free.
Speaker 1: So this cookbook, the Mescogo Cookbook, it was written authored
Speaker 1: by a woman named barlinad Moral that there's a part
Speaker 1: of the cookbook where she mentions John Horse Huanga Bay,
Speaker 1: the historical leader of the Moscovos. It is said to
Speaker 1: have been very kind and generous and would sometimes kill
Speaker 1: a cow or a pig, cook it and invite the
Speaker 1: community to eat. And he is said to have said,
Speaker 1: you were all my children. So he was a good guy. Wow,
Speaker 1: he was a good guy. But he was a black
Speaker 1: Seminole leader and one of the most successful freedom fighters
Speaker 1: in American history. He was born into slavery in Florida
Speaker 1: in eighteen twelve, and he was an African American, Native
Speaker 1: American and Spanish descent. John Horse led enslaved people to
Speaker 1: freedom on the underground railroad to Mexico, and so in
Speaker 1: his lifetime he fought as a sub chief during the
Speaker 1: Second Seminole War. He served as a decorated officer in
Speaker 1: the Mexican military. He met to president, and he spent
Speaker 1: most of his life on a quest to secure a
Speaker 1: free homeland for his people. In Mexico.
Speaker 4: I think where we're so lucky to have this time.
Speaker 4: You know, we've been very lucky to have our ancestors
Speaker 4: who left behind, even though we won't ever know everything
Speaker 4: about them, they left little nuggets, and we've been very
Speaker 4: lucky to be able to have the desire to want
Speaker 4: to know more about who we are, where we come from.
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm just excited about what more time
Speaker 4: will give us. You know, what other answers and people
Speaker 4: will rEFInd with the time that we have. And I think,
Speaker 4: you know, anybody who was afraid of, you know, being black,
Speaker 4: we're in a whole different time now. People are proud
Speaker 4: of their mixture who they are, So I think it'll
Speaker 4: only you know, I just hope it gets better with time.
Speaker 2: Don't go anywhere. History will be right back after the break.
Speaker 1: This community where the all of the recipes are from,
Speaker 1: the Recitaria Moscogo is from a community called Nacimiento de
Speaker 1: los Negros, which literally it's sort of the birth, and
Speaker 1: this community is where many of these Moscogos settled in.
Speaker 1: This area of Nasimiento de los Negros has been celebrating
Speaker 1: Juneteenth since eighteen sixty four and the sosq and the
Speaker 1: te tepun. These are festive foods that are served at
Speaker 1: the June teenth festival. It's been a federal holiday in
Speaker 1: the US since twenty twenty one, but June Teeth has
Speaker 1: been celebrated since eighteen sixty five in Nasimiento. And so
Speaker 1: here is Corinat hearing the treasure of the Seminole Indian
Speaker 1: Scout Cemetery Association and founder of La Casa Lauta Black
Speaker 1: Seminoles and Nacimiento reminiscing of our trips to Nacimento every
Speaker 1: summer to celebrate La Fies. The food's consumed and also
Speaker 1: how the Moscow was are about much more than their food.
Speaker 5: I've been going back and forth to Mexico since I
Speaker 5: was little. That's you know, that's where we had our
Speaker 5: summer vacations. And so our vacations were going back to Mexico,
Speaker 5: especially June nineteenth for the Negro or the Los Negros
Speaker 5: that we caught it. And I never knew that that
Speaker 5: was due nineteenth here in Texas. I learned that until
Speaker 5: I got older. So when people were going to Disneyland
Speaker 5: and you know other places, we're going back to you
Speaker 5: know where we were from.
Speaker 1: June teenth is celebrated in solidarity with the African American
Speaker 1: community in Texas, and it's a symbolic remembrance of their
Speaker 1: own fight for freedom. So there are celebrations that take
Speaker 1: place in Brackettville, Texas and on a much larger scale
Speaker 1: in Nasimiento. So families from both sides of the border
Speaker 1: that come together. There's a parade, there's music. Neighboring Kickapoo
Speaker 1: tribes come over and are part of the celebration. But
Speaker 1: this is where we see things like the soske and
Speaker 1: the te tepun and the chicharon and the manulo and
Speaker 1: you know, potato salad and all of this stuff.
Speaker 5: We are more than food in Natimiento. And that's why
Speaker 5: I like to I opened up a there, and you know,
Speaker 5: I like to take back everything that I've learned that
Speaker 5: I've learned here in the books and reading, and you know,
Speaker 5: teach it to the to the women that want to
Speaker 5: know the history, to the kids and the young adults
Speaker 5: that are interested. But food is very important for us.
Speaker 5: I mean, like I said, the soke, the tapoon and
Speaker 5: those foods like connect us with you know, Oklahoma. It
Speaker 5: connects us with Florida, It connects us with you know,
Speaker 5: South Carolina, Georgia.
Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, the then Governor of Guahuila, Mexico, Ruen
Speaker 1: Morera Aalez, signed a decree that recognized the Moscogos as
Speaker 1: indigenous people of Guahuila. A huge thanks to our special
Speaker 1: guest doctor Maria Hammock, Wendy Goodlow, and Griina Torralba for
Speaker 1: sharing their time, memories and expertise. You can find links
Speaker 1: to their work in the episode description.
Speaker 2: As always, thank you all for listening and joining us today.
Speaker 1: If you have any dishes or foods you want to
Speaker 1: hear about on the show, please send us a message.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Bye. Hungary for History is a hyphen media
Speaker 2: production in partnership with Iheart's Michael Bura podcast network.
Speaker 1: For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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